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Immersiveness and realism - it's not there
Amathe
Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
The following criticism isn't unique to Vanguard. Most mmos are equally guilty. But it applies to Vanguard a bit more because even though it is a fantasy game, some effort was supposedly made to make it more "realistic."
You have a grown man, in a set of plate armor, wielding a giant two handed sword, go out into a meadow and fight a frigging gopher or similar woodland creature. And IT'S A FAIR FIGHT. Heck, the warrior may even die. What the hell is immersive and realistic about that?
That is just one of a million examples I could give where it is ludicrous to say that this game, or any of the others, is realistic.
How may blows from an axe should it take to kill a spider?
How exactly do you kill a giant with a sword when you can't even reach its shin? It bleeds to death from a toe laceration?
I hear a lot about Vanguard's vaunted "immersiveness", "realism", and how "cartoony" it's competitors are, but I don't get it.
It's still the same old, same old. Another example - every NPC and monster in the game, like every game before it, is BLIND AND DEAF. You can stand in plain view and obvious earshot of a a monster or NPC, kill his friend, make all the noise you want in the process, including explosions, and unless you are within its "aggro range" they just watch, oblivious. But take one step closer and whoops, now they care. Wtf?
When is a real 3rd generation game coming? Where the monsters have a danger level appropriate to what they are, instead of all these Monty Python rabbit mobs? When will they be able to see? When will they be able to hear? When will they be able to smell? When will they behave as anything more than the cigar store indian, pixilated loot pinatas they are in every game so far?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Comments
I beta tested this game, so I did play it. And when i did, there sure as heck were gophers or gopher equivalents. Were they badgers? Muskrats? Beavers? Does it matter?
Why don't you address my point, instead of quibbling or making snarky remarks?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Oh come on. The OP make a really great point. That fact there are no gophers in Vanguard means does not negate the post. I agree with the OP. Lighten up anarchyart. He is right by the way with or without gophers.
There are a few games that have tried to make that better EQ2 has tried. Saga of Ryzom has probably done best in this area. Both have tried to make mobs act with more purpose. However no one has really done it right yet.
It's called fantasy and sometimes it isn't real.
The OP is right and like he said its not just VG. MMO's in general make very little sense. I always had to wonder why a NPC that is a higher level than you would send you out to kill wolves that are not doing anything to anyone. Hell they are not even attacking the other mobs around them. If the NPC was so damn concerned about this horrible wolf issue why doesnt he just go out there and clean them out? He is 5 levels above them. It would be a lot easier for him not to mention he isnt doing anything but standing there anyway. It would be a nice change to actually see these wolves attacking the innocent citizens of this village instead of just walking back and forth.
In this day and age of gaming I think as gamers we should be expecting a little bit more than what we are currently getting. Until then we all have to just deal with what we got. In the end once again it just is what it is. Good post OP.
It was a good rant. But like you yourself said, it isn't unique to Vanguard.
But yeah, this is a pretty long standing complaint a lot of people have with mmorpgs in general. Maybe someday it will improve.
I beta tested this game, so I did play it. And when i did, there sure as heck were gophers or gopher equivalents. Were they badgers? Muskrats? Beavers? Does it matter?
Why don't you address my point, instead of quibbling or making snarky remarks?
Have you played the released game?
I have to agree with Anarchyart, I haven't seen any gophers, and that is my problem with the realism of the game. Not many critters running around.
And to be fair in EQ2 I had to kill badgers for like a dozen dif. quests.
I'm just not sure why someone that beta tested the game waits until over a month after release to address the lack of realism in MMO's and do so on the forum of a game hes not playing. Sounds more like someone trying to find a way to bash VG.
Edit: Mobs in VG do see an hear, the smelling thing is going a bit far, but none the less they hear and see in VG.
The fact is, it works the way it is. You're looking for immersion in the wrong areas. Aspects like combat need to have rules and guidelines. Honestly, it sounds like you should be playing a single player RPG like Oblivion for that kind of realness.
I have found Vanguard to be the most immersive MMO personally. It has brought back the sense of living in a breathing world, kind of like how EQ did in it's golden age. Try actually taking part in the lore and storylines for areas and stop and take a moment to absorb the landscape and I think you'll find Vanguard a top notch experience when it comes to immersing the player and creating an alternate world.
Another pointless post being thrown on the Vanguard forums, using your own words 'this isn't just about Vanguard' should've told you that this crap belong in the General MMOs section and not the VG one. Every other example is just an excuse to get a reaction, OMG the trees move in the wind but where are the squirrels that are mad because the trees are moving?
Take this crap somewhere else, perhaps you can start in with the 'Build your own MMO' posts that are rampant in the 'General Population' area.
I like pie !
For example...
If you make a class in an mmo that can use a bow able to aim and headshot a mob wich is a one shot kill, you would be able to walk through the game virtually untouched and with no level of danger or fun to it. Two if the npc's giving the quests where running into the newbie zones killing the mobs themselves, you would have a depleted supply to level off of and less quests available in the beginning to get the swing of things with.
I do however agree that all mmo's really could use a level of randomness to mob activities and movements. maybe a wolfpack attacks a roaming guard, or birds swoop down to pick at npc's goods laying around. Then again Some of the fun of the mmo's is seeing where they will get upgrades and watching the game evolve.
EQ -70sk,70clr
DaoC- didnt make it past lvl 10
Archlord-lvl7 booorrrring
WoW- 60war,60priest, 70rogue
Dude, you're being unreasonable. The OP played in beta, you can't honestly expect him to give you an opinion based on the product that has been out about a month and a half now can you? I mean that would be stupid. Like telling others in a forum dedicated to the game that it sucks when you haven't even played it. I mean, really now, you don't have to play the game to know what it's like. You can just read all the nonsence posts that people through up here just to start arguments and make an opinion based on that. And just so I'm not of the ball here, ZOMG, LoTRO is going to kill VG, or is it WoW. Bah, I'm confused now.
eqnext.wikia.com
I beta tested this game, so I did play it. And when i did, there sure as heck were gophers or gopher equivalents. Were they badgers? Muskrats? Beavers? Does it matter?
Why don't you address my point, instead of quibbling or making snarky remarks?
Your argument is valid, except in my experience with Vanguard. Vanguard mobs aren't chickens or gophers, but they have you fighting things which could be very lethal if they did exist in real life. A wild boar for example is capable of disembowling a full grown man. I had to fight those in a Kojani newbie quest.
When was the last time you tried to fight a badger in real life? When you start out in an MMORPG you are supposed to be new in the world. I liken that to being a child. How do you think a 10 year old kid would fare against a full grown Badger even if he did have plate armor and a 2 hander? Sorry, I'm smiling now with the mental picture of a 10 year old kid in a full suit of armor trying to beat down a badger with a 2 handed sword. Anyways, the kid would probably get killed. At the very least an appendage chewed off.
Fact is, Vanguard is the most immersive and realistic MMORPG I've tried so far. But of course you hate it so this is the forum your little rant gets posted in. Tell me, did you post the same thing in every other games section? If not, why?
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Are you trying to tell me that not everyone is going to like VG.
I don't believe you!
Anyway, my take on the issue is that almost all MMO's start out with the ambition of being immersive. To what level they achieve that is obviously going to be subjective, but I do agree - we aren't there yet - with MMO's in general.
I think a big part of that is not only the tremendous amount of time and money it takes to achieve the immersive content and programming, but the playability of it as well. Sometime reality (immersiveness) just doesn't really translate all that well into fun play mechanics.
I mean when was the last time your character had to sleep, pee, or take a crap! Well, that would be immersive wouldn't it? Perhaps; but I think we can all agree it's not really all that fun. (See Sims Online for case in point.)
The same holds true for some of the things you listed above. If the game was realistic in damage and monsters, then yeah; the "gopher" should be killed in one hit and easily. But, on the same token all the player characters would never advance past a certain level because you'd ALWAYS be killed by the Giants, Dragons, Golems, etc.
Another thing I think you kinda glossed over is the size of some of the creatures we are battling in these Fantasy MMO's. Sure, the spider you come across in your house is going to be a pretty easy kill. However; a spider even as little as a small dog, would be a real challenge to kill if it were real - not to mention a spider the size of a small car!
The same holds true for any other monster we are battling in these worlds. It's challenge a lot of the times IS dependent on it's size. Sure, it may just be a "gopher"; but for crying out loud - it's a "gopher" the size of my old girlfriend! (That would be in the 180-200lb. range for those of you who like solid numbers). It kinda makes sense it's got a pretty good chance in making me "run for the hills".
I agree on the giant thing. Not really any realistic way of making that work out. So, we just scrap ALL monsters house-sized and bigger? Come on - I like those BIG monsters - they are the reason I play Fantasy games. If we take out the really big monsters because they aren't "immersive"; well, what do we replace them with?
So, yeah - it's not totally realistic when we have to whack on a mole, rat, "gopher", etc. 42 times before it dies. On the other hand, it's kinda nice that I can actually take down a giant, or dragon, or "insert big bad beastie of your choice here", when I get to their level.
The premise is you are starting off with zero or very few skills, then as you "mature" in the game you develop more and more offensive and defensive capabilities, as well as other utilitarian skills sometimes. That's pretty much the premise of any game that uses a RPG fantasy model as it's base.
Is that the best model to use for a fantasy MMO? Well, honestly; I really liked SWG's initial skill-set system. I like skills over levels. Perhaps thats why I don't get caught up in "watching the exp. meter" game. Levels just don't really mean all that much to me. However, in some games (Vanguard included) if you don't level - you don't really progress. The exploring can tide you over for a time, but eventually if you want to see new content; you are going to have to continue to level.
Don't get me wrong - I'm all for an MMO that can pull off the complete immersive package and still make it fun to play. I've harped for years that I'd like to come over a hilltop or a clearing in the forest and see the decaying remains of a battle fought a few days ago.
Creatures that live off the carrion fighting over the scraps of meat that they can gnaw off the bone; semi-sentient creatures clawing through the piled bodies looking for upgrades for their ragged and broken armor and weapons. Townspeople eventually coming out and piling the remains into what becomes billowing pyres of death.
If we want realistic then we should have to see the results of our rampaging crusades of death through-out the land. Disease and famine should be much more rampant in pretty much every city we visit. Ghetto should be the norm in every city; opulence should be reserved for just the Capital city; and then even there - for just the castle or king's residence.
There is way too much cleanliness and cheer in these MMO's if it's reality we are seeking. But, would such a game; immersive as it may be - be fun to play? Not sure. I'd be willing to pay to find out though - well, at least for a month anyway.
Good post but when i consider more realism i see something like Assasin Creed this would fit nice in a mmorpg the way one react with your surrounding and interact with other NPC's, Remember Conan (Robert E. Howard), not AoC, thats the kind of realism i think we can expect ingame, he had trouble wielding his mighty sword against hugh spiders, why not something like that in game, true i want to see them bleed where i hit them or make any sort of natural reaction.
The "real" view thing can hardly be done when you think about it, imagen this in Vanguard in the extent you want, think Sigil should either remove allot of mobs from the game or the Mobs should be much futher apart from eachother, creating "camp terrain" in between, large empty spaces (yes even more then now :P )
Quest could really need something diverent to make them immersive, fully agree on the point someone made when you need to kill X wolfs that are not really doing/hurting someone, sure you need to clear the place so its safe, but most of the time there is nobody (Npc's) around that has to feel safe so you often wonder why do it (apart from reward/xp) immersiveness is missing but like many already said this goes for almost every mmorpg. But at this moment Vanguard is for me the most immersive game to date which i'm currently am playing. Have i played more solid and polished games before, yes i have many, but i said this before i'm a patient gamer and think Vanguard for the time being is very accepteble to play and enjoy, also remember i'm a explorer, from a pvp point of view i might beleive the game isn't there yet for them.
Anyway, I look at VG with a glass is half full mentality. It might be far from perfect, but it is closer than any other MMORPG out there. I just wish more people would give this game a chance (because its incredible) and accept the game for what it is, support it for NOT being a WoW clone, and hope that the future brings brighter possibilities in terms of a more immersive, realistic gaming world.
Lets Eat It!
Are you kidding me? Realism? It's a damn game. You want realism? Try life.
I, for one, could give two dumps about realism when I play games. I want it to be entertaining and interesting. Vanguard is incredibly immersive, if you'd bother to read a little (have you ever read the text either during diplomacy or when talking to an NPC about a quest? Try it...you'll get immersion then).
I agree with the OP that the pretexts of most MMOs, in fact of most RPGs, are preposterous.
Still, immersiveness and realism are two different things. Immersiveness refers to the sense of actually being in the context that is simulated. Realism, on the other hand, refers to how well the simulated context corresponds to the actual context that it seeks to represent. The trick for most RPGs, MMO or not, is to achieve the first in spite of the fact that the second is not even remotely possible because no actual represented context exists.
I am reminded of what a sales manager once said to me: "It's easier for a salesman to sell a product that has not been released than one that has been, because there are no facts to dispute what the salesman says about the product."
Like in Shadow of the Colossus... when you hit one of their legs with your sword (ie slashing their tendons) they'd FALL DOWN, at which point you could crawl up on them and kill them...
Like if you took an axe to a spider and hacked off one of its legs, it might be wobbly and angry... lop off another 3 on the same side and it wouldn't be able to walk straight...
That is immersion. DIRECT consequences / results to your actions.
Not just Killing X mob and in 3 minutes a replica clone of X mob spawns back into existance.
first of all, spoken like a true city boy...I have seen a gopher attack a man in full armor.
secondly, VG is WAY less guilty of this than, say EQ2 used to be...as a DE, the first things you kill are feeble DE's
Thirdly, at least VG takes facing into account...I can move behind a MOB safley, but if he turns around, he will aggro. DAOC did a good job with this with their 'bring a friend' code and scouts, but I do agree alot more needs to be done.