I find it interesting that you refer to ignoring idiocy Kirin and then take party in one of the largest deluges of it that I've seen on this forum. My opinions come from playing GW for myself with my wife.
You assert that Guild Wars is story driven? In what way? That it has a pointless introduction scene which transitions to the collapse of the world as result of some warring monster tribe? That is where the story begins and ends. The rest of the odds and ends quest they will do to lvl up do not reflect an continuing sotry, they reflect being in a world with a history as a backdrop.
Guild Wars is cookie cutter in that in no real way does it express differences from the games who borrowed the Lineage 2 engine. It seperates itself from the core engine through its different skills (a lot are just run of the mill). Aside from that its just a point and click mess.
You don't have to grind in GW? Eh? You most certainly have to quest to receive XP to lvl up. WoW offers the exact same grinding alternative. If WoW's focus is on grinding in light of the reliance on quests then GW is as well. GW's quests run out quickly which forces you to move to another area to level up. The GW questing was slapped together.
I too have played Lineage 2 and come to the conclusion that GW and it have similiarities in many areas. Considering that GW was created from the Lineage 2 engine I'm not sure why you're so shocked by this.
1. They are reliant on fixed location combat systems which revolve around a few select number of usuable PVP moves.
2. Their pvp systems are loaded with problems which reliate to the aforementioned reliance on sedintary PVP; Casters have tremendous advantages over melee thusly melee is a dull and unrealistic experience. In this Lineage 2 and GW have much in common.
The systems which govern GW and Lineage are both highly reliant on casting times and are highly simplistic in nature. They both show little effort in applying server position predictions and thusly lack action.
Reaching the lvl cap. For me GW reguired more grinding than did WoW. Being that GW is free its a far more simplistic game and lacks a good deal of content. WoW on the other hand provides you with developed quests that supply not only XP but items and gear as well. In short they were far more rewarding than GW's questing.
You notion of what happens at the lvl cap brings us back to the issue of uninformed idiocy. In WoW you don't have to Raid grind for anything. As a function of TBC and the Honor System players can acquire items, weapons and gear from PVP and PVE. PVPing/PVEing for REP/Honor is a breeze and provides you with what you want through various avenues of play. In Guild Wars what do you do when you hit the cap? At this point the game is nothing more than a constant repetition of the game's unispired PVP. In lineage 2 all that is left is fight in the Arena. Though in Lineage 2 you have more skills to work with.
You complain about crafting as a grind? You don't have to craft if grinding a problem. Its a grind to force you to work for what you need rather than just providing it to you? Unlike GW, WoW has more developed content built around a certain amount of work. GW doesn't offer much and allows you to create a character at the lvl cap and just pvp all day - the only point of the game.
Of course WoW's endgame will effect PVP better gear often does. Being that the game is more complex than GW which is based solely around PVP and lacks developed PVE one has along to buy or grind for the best gear available and then PVP all day. If you grow bored of pvping all the time then there's nothing else for you.
Originally posted by Harafnir What these kiddies always fail to realize and never will realize. is that "their" developers of "their" game.... They play WoW. A lot... All of them. And learn game design from it. Its funny, but in a sad way...
I think what you're looking for is "copy" not "learn game design from". Originality is a long way off in game design, and with the corporate side of the industry pushing for numbers like WoW has, nobody will risk an untested type of game.
If it is copied once or twice, then its "copy". When it is changing the evolution and design for years to come... then its "learning design". Good or bad, WoW is a classroom, and developers sit there as students right now, it has and will have an impact on every desicion in every game that will be developed in the next several years. That is not merelly "copy"
I dont support and I am not against... Its just an observation.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
Someone's missing the point. Yeah, I have 8 PvP skills.. FOR THIS FIGHT. I can come back with a completely different skillset (chosen from hundreds) within minutes, or less, on the same character. This is unlike WoW, where you have some 30-40 skills total, and two different experiences would be where you put your bonus points to enhance the skill effects. It is also unlike Lineage, where you're stuck in one set of skills you chose from the skill/class tree.
Secondly, take it from a mage, Warriors, assassins, and rangers have kicked my ass to high heaven and back on several classes, and I've seen 'em do it to all kinds of mages with ease. Mages do not have an advantage in GW.
Where's the point and click mess? Most people I know almost exclusively play with their keyboard... even for targetting and everything else.
When I say storyline, What I'm referring to is the Mission system. you COULD explore a significant chunk of the world on foot, but you're much better off (and you participate in an actual story, unlike what you're claiming) doing missions. They're zones of their own in which you complete specific objectives alongside storyline characters and watch scenes that advance the tale as you lead the Ascalon Refugees (using prophecies campaign as an example).
At endgame in Guild Wars you're done, Go PvP if you want to, otherwise just don't play.
I've been pointing out repeatedly that LII and WoW both work on the carrot-on-a-stick principal. Get your players addicted to the new shinies they get with each accomplishment, and make sure there's plenty of timesink that quickly becomes a second job between them and said shinies. Works like a charm, and generates addicts like yourself, who staunchly believe a game must dominate hours of their life per day, and see no faults in the game they play. Therein lies the difference. GW ends, it's over, you can try out different characters if you want, but otherwise do what is fun for you. Heck, go play WoW, I've done that too. Had some fun with a Druid. Whatever floats your boat.
Quit trying to argue with me like I'm a GW fanboy claiming it's better than WoW, I'm not. I'm just pointing out that you clearly know nothing about it, and just like the hundreds of other hopelessly addicted people doing just like you are now, are insisting that no other game is allowed to have merits of their own. Don't think I don't recognize the syndrome, I was just like you once, and it took a good bit of time for me to see things as they really are.
-Cheers, and good luck on the eventual recovery. Remember, acceptance is the first step.
Harafnir:
I agree that it's a classroom, The simplistic system and clear forethought are really the big lessons .The lessons lie in their skillful use of a system that is friendly to casual players and previous non-gamers and still pulls off the carrot-on-a-stick tactic swimmingly for the players who get hardcore hooked.
-------------------------- Society: Reaching new lows every day.
I forgot to post something awhile ago 3 pages back, about the community. I hate the fact that players curse you out, stalk you, talk Scheiße, then you fight back and get reported to a GM. I told a GM what the hell? I remember back in the day of ShadowBane you do NOT talk trash if you we're a lesser guild with like one castle. Say something slick to the wrong guy and 5 minutes later you got a Bane stone outside your town and 70 gung-ho pissed off guys are waiting to crumble your city.
I wont lie the GM's did enforce rules, like temp bans and such but they should have extremely harsh penalties for crap like that, week ban you argue and the GM is in a bad mood, two weeks! Hell perma-ban their account and CC (or their mommy's CC for that matter). Oh well I don't play WoW anymore but like I said, I don't hate WoW just the community is absolute garbage.
296 post on this... I didn't read through all of it but it's still fun to see it pop up once in a while...
Anyways, guess I'm bored enough to put my own opinion on WoW...
Personally I DON'T hate WoW. It does have its merits when it comes to being a good MMORPG to start or to play. I'm more disappointed that BECAUSE of its success, that many games are following the same format (although this format has been going on for quite a while now, even before WoW's success). This trend is damaging the creative ideas in MMOs, and there has been at least ONE case of a game got destroyed and turn into WoW-ish gameplay (if you can't guess it, it's SWG... ).
So I DON'T hate WoW, I just get angry whenever I see my SWG collector's edition box lying in my room, and I blame WoW for the trend, and I blame SOE for doing the stuff they do...
Someone's missing the point. Yeah, I have 8 PvP skills.. FOR THIS FIGHT. I can come back with a completely different skillset (chosen from hundreds) within minutes, or less, on the same character. This is unlike WoW, where you have some 30-40 skills total, and two different experiences would be where you put your bonus points to enhance the skill effects. It is also unlike Lineage, where you're stuck in one set of skills you chose from the skill/class tree. Secondly, take it from a mage, Warriors, assassins, and rangers have kicked my ass to high heaven and back on several classes, and I've seen 'em do it to all kinds of mages with ease. Mages do not have an advantage in GW. Where's the point and click mess? Most people I know almost exclusively play with their keyboard... even for targetting and everything else. When I say storyline, What I'm referring to is the Mission system. you COULD explore a significant chunk of the world on foot, but you're much better off (and you participate in an actual story, unlike what you're claiming) doing missions. They're zones of their own in which you complete specific objectives alongside storyline characters and watch scenes that advance the tale as you lead the Ascalon Refugees (using prophecies campaign as an example). At endgame in Guild Wars you're done, Go PvP if you want to, otherwise just don't play. I've been pointing out repeatedly that LII and WoW both work on the carrot-on-a-stick principal. Get your players addicted to the new shinies they get with each accomplishment, and make sure there's plenty of timesink that quickly becomes a second job between them and said shinies. Works like a charm, and generates addicts like yourself, who staunchly believe a game must dominate hours of their life per day, and see no faults in the game they play. Therein lies the difference. GW ends, it's over, you can try out different characters if you want, but otherwise do what is fun for you. Heck, go play WoW, I've done that too. Had some fun with a Druid. Whatever floats your boat. Quit trying to argue with me like I'm a GW fanboy claiming it's better than WoW, I'm not. I'm just pointing out that you clearly know nothing about it, and just like the hundreds of other hopelessly addicted people doing just like you are now, are insisting that no other game is allowed to have merits of their own. Don't think I don't recognize the syndrome, I was just like you once, and it took a good bit of time for me to see things as they really are. -Cheers, and good luck on the eventual recovery. Remember, acceptance is the first step. Harafnir:
I agree that it's a classroom, The simplistic system and clear forethought are really the big lessons .The lessons lie in their skillful use of a system that is friendly to casual players and previous non-gamers and still pulls off the carrot-on-a-stick tactic swimmingly for the players who get hardcore hooked.
The problem I have with GW is that it has way too much instancing to feel like a persistent world to me. The towns feel like graphical "lobbies" to me, and the zones all being instanced feel like a single player game. It doesn't feel like an MMO to me at all. That was what killed GW for me. I think it has many innovative design features, but at the end of the day the feeling of not being in a really persistent world just was very off-putting for me, because that's one of the things I like the most about MMOs.
There's no need to slam people who like to play MMOs, by the way. Not everyone is an "addict", and throwing around labels like that is both dangerous and woefully off-target. Some people are truly addicted, but most people play casually and are not addicted at all. It's hopeless to generalize, and it doesn't add anything to the discussion, to be honest.
I'm not throwing around labels, I love playing MMO's myself. I just recognized in that guy the symptoms that I saw in myself when I spent a year logging in to FFXI almost every day without fail for several hours. It really blinds you to a number of things, just like a drug. That's an addict. It's the difference between saying "I think this game is good" and rabidly insisting "This is the best! period! Everything else is bad!". I insisted that FFXI was more challenging or whatever, but in all truth, it's like WoW but more honest: that life-wasting grind is present from the early levels.
I agree that the instancing destroys the persistence of the world. I barely qualify GW as an MMO. The one and only point I was trying to make was that GW is very different from Lineage II, whereas WoW shares many similarities with it. Heck, I very well may play WoW come summer, though that's in significant part to it being to me like Mc Donalds or Wal Mart. It's nothing special to me, I see plenty of content I could enjoy, and I have several real friends I could do stuff with on there.
-------------------------- Society: Reaching new lows every day.
I'm not throwing around labels, I love playing MMO's myself. I just recognized in that guy the symptoms that I saw in myself when I spent a year logging in to FFXI almost every day without fail for several hours. It really blinds you to a number of things, just like a drug. That's an addict. It's the difference between saying "I think this game is good" and rabidly insisting "This is the best! period! Everything else is bad!"
I agree that the instancing destroys the persistence of the world. I barely qualify GW as an MMO. The one and only point I was trying to make was that GW is very different from Lineage II, whereas WoW shares many similarities with it.
Well, I saw your comparison, but I think it doesn't address the following differences that make the gameplay in WoW and L2 feel quite different:
*quests vs open grinding (sure quests are disguised grinding and some of them are uninspired, but many of WoW's quests are fun, and they drive things forward in an entertaining way, whereas in L2 it's almost all open grinding)
*leveling pace is vastly different, and L2 is much more of a grind for the entire game, whereas much of WoW's grind is confined to the endgame
*economy in L2 is really broken, most people buy Adena, it is very hard to play legit in the game
Now you can say that these are "variations on a theme", but to be honest the variations have a huge impact on how gameplay feels. As a result while I think you can say that WoW and L2 are of the same "family" of games in that they each involve leveling and time investment to reach goals in the levels ahead, the differences between them make for vastly different play experiences, and I think many more players find WoW's approach to be entertaining than is the case for L2 -- at least in the West. I don't see GW as being much like L2, either, but I think smushing WoW and L2 together to disprove a comparison someone else was making between GW and L2 distorts the big differences between WoW and L2, and understates the importance of these diffrences on the overall play experience and hence the relative popularity of the two games.
thanks for clearing that up. My experiences in L2 were early in its life, and relatively limited, I'll admit.
I really would like to see if some people don't want to try and analyze the "magic ratio" or whatever it is that WoW clearly got so right from a marketing standpoint. It may reveal a way to outperform it that are actually innovative by appealing to the same general taste in a new way.
-------------------------- Society: Reaching new lows every day.
Omg hundreds? Hundreds of uber skills? Come on. You're exaggerating on most of the skills usefullness.
Missions? I remember quite a few of the missions I completed lvl 1-15 and they had absolutely nothing that I would you say expressed a continuing world story. Each of them addressed some kind of story line but lacked the player involvement that WoW instances such as the Scarlet Monastery share. In reality you go lvl 1-15 experiencing only trivial minor story lines which revolve around irrelevant characters' requests.
You can play L2 with a keyboard too but its built around point and click and can be played effectively in such a fashion. Being that GW is based on the same tired battle scheme as L2 its effectively played with point and click methods too. In order to fight you must remain rooted, why steer with the keyboard when the game's tank controls serve little tactical purpose. The game can be played efficiently with one hand. This speaks volumes about its complexity.
You've summed up Guild War's endgame aptly. PVP or nothing. The game provides nothing else. At least you can raid and castle siege in Lineage 2. Its bizzare that you later turn around and state you can do as you please when the grounds work isn't there to do much outside of PVP. There are no real PVE incentives. Once you grow bored of the limited pvp system the game is through.
I find it ironic that you complain about WoW's endgame "grinds". At least there's something other than the same old thing to do ad infinitum.
What you call Carrot on a stick philosophy I call postive incentives. You prosper based on a limited amount of work required. This is an acceptable lose to gain much in return. GW on the other hand provides you everything upfront, because well, there's nothing to the game. You can do everything there is to do in the game within a month and be completely bored a month later. What you see as a wonderful aspect of the game I see as a poor way to run a business. Its good thing they instance the game in such a way to minimize bandwidth otherwise they'd likely be in the red.
Quite arguing with you like you're a GW fanboy? You've sang the praises for this overly simplistic game as though there is something of merit to it. Any game that gives you everything upfront is not built to last and the rest of the title reflects this. I'm not trying to make it seem like you've said the game is better than WoW, i'm simply point out that my assement of the game is based on sound comparisons and reason. The game is a pvp focused, PVE castrated version of L2 with more spell flexibility. Aside from the interchangability of the casting system its still the same old tired PVP system that L2 employed.
You've not point out that I know nothing about it you've proven you really don't have a position to defend.
thanks for clearing that up. My experiences in L2 were early in its life, and relatively limited, I'll admit. I really would like to see if some people don't want to try and analyze the "magic ratio" or whatever it is that WoW clearly got so right from a marketing standpoint. It may reveal a way to outperform it that are actually innovative by appealing to the same general taste in a new way.
You call my comparison unimformed and then turn around and admit you don't really know the game that's being compared to GW and even go as far as to some completely absurd assertions about L2 and its comparability to WoW. Comedy gold.
Now that I look back I realize you never responded to anything in my post address your summation of WoW's endgame. Apparently you'r not to familiar with it either.
Omg hundreds? Hundreds of uber skills? Come on. You're exaggerating on most of the skills usefullness.
Missions? I remember quite a few of the missions I completed lvl 1-15 and they had absolutely nothing that I would you say expressed a story. Each of them addressed some kind of story line but lacked the player involvement that WoW instances such as the Scarlet Monastery share. In reality you go lvl 1-15 experiencing only trivial minor story lines which revolve around irrelevant characters' requests.
You can play L2 with a keyboard too but its built around point and click and can be played effectively in such a fashion. Being that GW is based on the same tired battle scheme as L2 its effectively played with point and click methods too. In order to fight you must remain rooted, why steer with the keyboard when the game's tank controls serve little tactical purpose. The game can be played efficiently with one hand. This speaks volumes about its complexity.
You've summed up Guild War's endgame aptly. PVP or nothing. The game provides nothing else. At least you can raid and castle siege in Lineage 2. Its bizzare that you later turn around and state you can do as you please when the grounds work isn't there to do much outside of PVP. There are no real PVE incentives. Once you grow bored of the limited pvp system the game is through.
I find it ironic that you complain about WoW's endgame "grinds". At least there's something other than the same old thing to do ad infinitum.
What you call Carrot on a stick philosophy I call postive incentives. You prosper based on a limited amount of work required. This is an acceptable lose to game much in return. GW on the other hand provides you everything upfront, because well, there's nothing to the game. You can do everything there is to do in the game within a month and be completely bored a month later. What you see as a wonderful aspect of the game I see as a poor way to run a business. Its good thing they instance the game in such a way to minimize bandwidth otherwise they'd likely be in the red.
Quite arguing with you like you're a BW fanboy? You've sang the praises for this overly simplistic game as though there is something of merit to it. Any game that gives you everything upfront is not built to last and the rest of the title reflects this.
You've not point out that I know nothing about it you've proven you really don't have a position to defend.
See, there's your first mistake... GW doesn't have "uber" skills. It has skills. Some work better in certain combinations than others I think the only one that I've never considered using in a design was "Shameful Waste", for obvious reasons.
As for missions... Er, You sure we played the same game? I'm not talking about the quests, those are pretty average. I'm talking about the actual missions, and those weren't random stories.. they all followed the same people.. The first 7 or so consisted of you fighting alongside Prince Rurik to push back the Charr, and then proceeds to follow rurik after he and his followers are in exile... I'd say that's contiguous.
Maybe it's just me, but what I've seen of instances in WoW had two things... You could read a brief wall of text, enter an instance, perhaps read a couple more walls of text from NPCs in there to get subquests, and kill bosses who were mentioned in a prior wall of text. I'm not going to say they're better or worse than GW, but they certainly don't seem all that in depth to me.
For all your talk about how short the game is, it's a pretty sorry admission to say you didn't even bother to play to level 20. I still haven't got a clue what tank controls you're talking about. I move, strafe, and rotate as needed. Movement is just like any FPS I'd play, barring that I have to hold down a mouse button or use arrow keys to rotate the camera (how terrible.)
I still fail to see how GW is based on the "same tired battle scheme" as L2.. L2 consisted of use the same few strongest skills repeatedly to fill the role dictated by your class. GW consists of designing and using the synergy of a skillset to perform the role you've chosen to perform at that time... I'd say that's fairly different. Almost every time I'd leave town, for example, my monk would function differently.
At the rate you're going, It would seem that anything that can be controlled with a mouse is simplistic. the only thing in WoW that you can't do with the mouse is walk... Everything else, you can do just fine with it. Wow. I'm ashamed. I never realized how complex a game WoW is because you cant walk with the mouse. Forgive me. Point is, that argument is pretty well moot. Secondly, anyone with brains playing GW would be using a keyboard because strafing is an essential skill to allow for dodging projectiles and spells. Hardly the controls of a tank.
Congratulations on failing miserably at disproving my point. You're consistently trying to sling crap at Guild Wars, which is worthless to your cause. I don't care if it's an outright awful game, that's not the point. The point is that it really isn't similar to Lineage II. It's barely an MMO for pete's sake! That said, it certainly has merit. It managed to provide much of the same experience people look for in an MMO in a competetive and casual environment, with a reasonable amount of depth, without requiring a subscription.
"You call my comparison unimformed and then turn around and admit you don't really know the game that's being compared to GW and even go as far as to some completely absurd assertions about L2 and its comparability to WoW."
-Care to call us even? All I ask is that you cease the absurd assertions about Guild Wars.
As for absurd assertions, Grind is Grind. Be it level grinding, or instance grinding, it's gaming that feels like work but is considered worthwhile due to so called "Incentives". People who spend a long time calling that "Depth" or "Challenge" tend to be ones who've gotten a little too into things. That's hardly an absurd assertion. And note: i was claiming that WoW is closer to LII overall than GW is, not singing praises of GW. Guild wars just happens to be something I can speak with significant authority about, so I am attempting to describe in detail the things that differentiate it from LII and even WoW. I see from your posts that all it's doing is agitating you, and you consistently attack the same stupid "It uses a mouse!" point. I'm terribly sorry that you saw the comparison as an attack on your precious. I'll be more careful not to appear to be assaulting WoW again.
Just to make it clear. I'm through discussing this. It's pointless, and we've derailed this topic for long enough. Maybe you'll eventually realize that I do recognize WoW has merits, and even recognize that LII has merits. I just wish you would do the same for other titles.
So then. On topic:
I read in another thread an interesting statistic... It claimed that while there are around 10 million players of MMOs in the US, only 2 million of WoW's subscribers are in the US, while 3.5 million are in China. That leaves 2.5 million distributed elsewhere. While it certainly doesn't diminish blizzard's accomplishment in gaining such a following, it may put it into perspective. While there ARE 8 million subscribers, you've got to consider where the people who we (let's say here) hear the opinions of. I won't be so brash as to claim that these forums are strictly US, I know they aren't, but for the sake of putting things in a different light, let's say they are. 2 million is only 1/5 of the US MMO market. That said, It's feasible that roughly 4/5 of the people on here presently do not play WoW. Considering that people who do not play the game are more likely to speak ill of it, It could very well simply appear that everyone hates WoW, while in fact the number is about on par with people who hate any other game. Combine that with the general resentment of players of games who they feel were "ruined" by WoW's influence, and the numbers seem like they make some sense. It very well may not be related to WoW lacking merit so much as simple probability and a bit of a grudge. Again, I'm claiming no statistical accuracy of my own, just posing something to think about.
-------------------------- Society: Reaching new lows every day.
See, there's your first mistake... GW doesn't have "uber" skills. It has skills. Some work better in certain combinations than others I think the only one that I've never considered using in a design was "Shameful Waste", for obvious reasons I made the assertion regarding "uber skills" because you pandered to that agitprop of GW having hundreds of skills. It has quite a few number of skills but not all can be equally interchanged. Obviously I can't walk into a fight with 8 glyph spells and expect to win. Essentially GW has taken self buff skills and attack spells and spread their function as thin as possible as to make as many of them as they can. In the end you're not going to use them all and they're not equally effective. A lot, particularly AOE skills, are not that useful in PVP. As for missions... Er, You sure we played the same game? I'm not talking about the quests, those are pretty average. I'm talking about the actual missions, and those weren't random stories.. they all followed the same people.. The first 7 or so consisted of you fighting alongside Prince Rurik to push back the Charr, and then proceeds to follow rurik after he and his followers are in exile... I'd say that's contiguous.
Rofl, wasn't that mission at the begining of the game? After which the Charr esentially destory the world? After that point what else is there? You move onto the crypt and the surrounding towns where you take up a some kill and skill quests. Nothing that I would call progressing a story. Once you've completed all there is to do around those parts you move onto another cookie cutter town made of simple entities. In fact nothing from that point on continued the story of the fight against the charr from a overarching stand point. Maybe it's just me, but what I've seen of instances in WoW had two things... You could read a brief wall of text, enter an instance, perhaps read a couple more walls of text from NPCs in there to get subquests, and kill bosses who were mentioned in a prior wall of text. I'm not going to say they're better or worse than GW, but they certainly don't seem all that in depth to me. Then you've never completed Karazhan, The Caverns of Time, Molten Core, BWL or UBRS where major events coincide with scripted sequences. Numerous areas in the outlands introduce characters from the Black Temple in scripted events where they discuss their plans of the future with you - foreshadowing your fight to come. The Shattered Halls actually has mobs that call out commands to each other in order to organize their part in the fight. Nothing in GW comes close. In fact I can't think of any other MMO that has accomplished this.
For all your talk about how short the game is, it's a pretty sorry admission to say you didn't even bother to play to level 20. I still haven't got a clue what tank controls you're talking about. I move, strafe, and rotate as needed. Movement is just like any FPS I'd play, barring that I have to hold down a mouse button or use arrow keys to rotate the camera (how terrible.) Are you asserting that playing to 20 would have provided me a world of experience different from what I already had? All I would have done was grind some more. Nothing else. After reaching 20 I would have been pvping all day not paying any head to the PVE portion. Why grind to 20 when I can simply provide myself with a lvl 20 and achieve the same ends? In short why partake in the grind?
I still fail to see how GW is based on the "same tired battle scheme" as L2.. L2 consisted of use the same few strongest skills repeatedly to fill the role dictated by your class. GW consists of designing and using the synergy of a skillset to perform the role you've chosen to perform at that time... I'd say that's fairly different. Almost every time I'd leave town, for example, my monk would function differently. You refuse to recognize the only prevailing difference between the two is spell interchangibility. If I provided L2 with the same kind of system the two would be nearly identical aside from differences in certain skills. Aside from their differences in spell flexibility they both reside on a fixed style of game play that doesn't allow for much effective motion while in combat. GW inherited this limitation as a result of the dev team's adaptation of the prexisting L2 engine they borrowed from NCSoft.
At the rate you're going, It would seem that anything that can be controlled with a mouse is simplistic. the only thing in WoW that you can't do with the mouse is walk... Everything else, you can do just fine with it. Wow. I'm ashamed. I never realized how complex a game WoW is because you cant walk with the mouse. Forgive me. Point is, that argument is pretty well moot. Secondly, anyone with brains playing GW would be using a keyboard because strafing is an essential skill to allow for dodging projectiles and spells. Hardly the controls of a tank. This is an extreme exaggeration of what I was refering to. GW and L2 can both be played with just a mouse and up to 8 buttons which can be bound according to the player's interest. WoW on the other hand can not. There are a large amount of skills you'll need to use at any given time. Combine this with combat that relies heavily on motion and you have a recipe for death if you attempted to play with a mouse. I take it you've played WoW before and thusly I'm shocked you'd make an agrument such as this in response to another WoW player.
You can strafe in L2 as well btw in reality its use is limited only to defensive posturing in a system which is so heavily reliant on fighting while standing still.
Congratulations on failing miserably at disproving my point. You're consistently trying to sling crap at Guild Wars, which is worthless to your cause. I don't care if it's an outright awful game, that's not the point. The point is that it really isn't similar to Lineage II. It's barely an MMO for pete's sake! That said, it certainly has merit. It managed to provide much of the same experience people look for in an MMO in a competetive and casual environment, with a reasonable amount of depth, without requiring a subscription.
It funny that you say this when another player called you out on your WoW/L2 comparisons which later caused you to feign ignorance. If I failed to refute your point then he made up for my lack there of. Consistantly trying to throw crap at GW? No. In fact I said nothing about it until the previous poster attempted to spout its superiority over WoW. Before that GW never crossed my mind. Your argument that L2 and it are different rests on their differences in spells and pvp focus. Hell, if that were substantial enough to support your claims then any of the blatant L2 clones would also be considered vastly different. There are definately differences between the two: namely that GW has far less PVE focused content than L2. It is after all a PVP centered game. There's nothing inherently wrong with this but it doesn't white wash the combat system similiarities which are likely derivative of the L2 Engine. My comparison between L2 and GW begin and end there as the two go off into two entirely different direction wrt to their focus. However, comparisons can still be drawn.
"You call my comparison unimformed and then turn around and admit you don't really know the game that's being compared to GW and even go as far as to some completely absurd assertions about L2 and its comparability to WoW." -Care to call us even? All I ask is that you cease the absurd assertions about Guild Wars. If you're asserting I've done similiarly wouldn't your hypocrisy leave this argument in my favor? I can make comparisons where I please if you don't agree with them you can debate them or you can shut up and ignore them. Forum life really is that easy. As for absurd assertions, Grind is Grind. Be it level grinding, or instance grinding, it's gaming that feels like work but is considered worthwhile due to so called "Incentives". People who spend a long time calling that "Depth" or "Challenge" tend to be ones who've gotten a little too into things. That's hardly an absurd assertion. And note: i was claiming that WoW is closer to LII overall than GW is, not singing praises of GW. I'm terribly sorry that you saw the comparison as an attack on your precious. I'll be more careful not to appear to be assaulting WoW again. Grind is a subjective term. Grinding for L2 is only remotely similiar to grinding in WoW. L2 focuses on traditional rapid continuous monster killing while WoW focuses mainly on questing which will require you to do any number of odd tasks. The enjoyment factor of this "work" is also subjective. You apparently don't like the idea of investing effort towards achieving some end. You want results immediately. I didn't see grinding in WoW as a chore, in fact I much enjoyed it. There was much to see and do along the way. L2 on the other hand is really the same experience over and over again until you reach the lvl cap. You simply move from one group of monsters to the next according to your lvl. Why belittle those who call these things "depth" or challenging? Elements of PVE are no more or less depth or a challenge than PVP. PVErs could very easily level the same kind of complaints about you, that you choose to PVP all the time because you're too into it and that you want everything upfront because you're too lazy to work for it. What remains is that WoW provides players with the best of both worlds, cementing it's desirability to the average and hardcore gamers alike.
Again your attempt to dismiss my point is centered on the overarching natures of L2 and WoW as they compare to GW. My comparisons between L2 and GW have been predominately focused on elements of their PVP systems. Both WoW and L2 have a great deal more focus on PVE than GW does. From that realization alone you draw a whole host of comparisons that wouldn't apply to GW. None of this however makes your previous comparisons more informed.
Needless to say this discussion has grown far beyond it's original intention and I would be hard pressed to continue it any futher.
I'm finding it quite useless to argue with Kaiaphas mentality. Its really becomes quite a chore over anything else and quite annoying. he has the typical fanboi attitude and we'll just not be able to prove him wrong. ever. hell most of his post have come from this topic alone.
eat your heart out Kaiaphas
"And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."
thanks for clearing that up. My experiences in L2 were early in its life, and relatively limited, I'll admit. I really would like to see if some people don't want to try and analyze the "magic ratio" or whatever it is that WoW clearly got so right from a marketing standpoint. It may reveal a way to outperform it that are actually innovative by appealing to the same general taste in a new way.
Yeah I think it's a very simple formula really:
*More quests, less pure grinding.
*Faster paced leveling scheme with fewer obvious timesinks (eg, easier/faster travel, manageable zone size, etc.).
*Intuitive and fluid interface that is easily grasped by the lay-person (i.e., a non-computer geek)
*Playable smoothly with nice-looking visuals on a wide variety of systems.
I think those are the big four that really drive WoW's success out the window. Yes, it got a big boost at the beginning from Blizzard/Warcraft fans,and that shouldn't be understated. But in the longer-term, I think it's these design issues that have made it so appealing to such a broad array of people.
The conflict on a board like this one is that the "advantages" I listed above are outright loathed by many of the posters here because they are seen as the hallmarks of a "dumbed-down" game. If that mentality persists among developers (and we've seen it recently with Sigil, for example), then the likelihood of making a game that has WoW's upsides combined with more innovation and originality becomes less, while the likelihood that less original developers will simply try to copy WoW's scheme becomes greater. That's the Catch-22.
The OP stated he never reached lvl 60 in WoW and wondering why everyone hates the game. Well... he must not have played over 2 weeks then to not hit 60
Its amazing how some people equate "dumbed down" with functional. Think about it. WOW is a working MMORPG, like any decent RPG. You do something and it works as you expect. You go somewhere and theres something to see. Many of us have tried that in past MMORPGs and its not what we got. Then the developer calls all these mistakes and unfinished features, CONTENT. So many of you got so used to bad programming, lousy balance, no content, empty worlds and a host of other problems most people don't tolerate. Once you actually were playing a working title, its like your brains didn't know what to do, because you wer probably searching for all the game breaking bugs, broken mechanics, holes in the world, ect..
" Quests that give you rewards and let you choose before hand??? Thats stupid. You shouldn't get rewards. You should have to grind and camp mobs for weeks to see progress!!!
"Talents shouldn't work. You should have to spend years of trial and error, rerolling characters over and over again in order to know whats good and whats not. A tool tip that describes the spell accurately? BLASPHEMY!!!"
"The developer shouldn't tell you how the game works. WE, the PLAYERS, should have to figure it all out ourselves, because we're SMART."
"A working Map that actually shows us the world and actually reveals it when we explore an area". Dumb. There should be no map at all. We should have to scribble it down on graph paper. You KNOW you used to do that=)
"NPCs that tell us if they have something to say." DUMB.
"Non realistic graphics!!! Thats for dumb kids." Sure hope NONE of you played Street FIghter, Mario or Pacman growing up? Sure hope none of you ever watched anime or enjoyed a Pixar movie, because its just for stupid dumb kids, right?
"A death penalty that doesn't force you to sit around doing nothing for 15 minutes or play for another few hours to recoup experience?" Thats for dumb people. You SMART people enjoy wasting your time I guess, since you have so much of it to throw around.
Cool weapons with stats to tweak. How stupid!!! There shouldn't be anything cool in the game. Smart people would rather imagine cool weapons I guess. Dumb people need it shown to them.
Ask an NPC for directions where something is and he actually tells you. Thats for stupid people too. Smart people don't need directions.
A working tutorial!!! Just for dumb people.
Tool tips are only for dumb people.
Zones that are seamless and have mountains around them. DUMB. We should have loading screens every 5 minutes. The world should look like a big empty golf course or desert, because smart people need big empty areas to explore, even if theres nothing of interest to see. Smart people like to imagine that huge empty zones that take a 1/2 hr to run across require brains.
Talent respecs are for stupid people. Smart people know exactly how their character should grow before they actually level. They should know if they like a talent before they choose it. If they don't like it, they should have to reroll, because SMART people don't make mistakes.
Quests shouldn't tell you what to do? Thats for dumb people. Smart people prefer guessing. Smart people actually don't need quests at all. Only dumb people need stories and purpose. Smart people make it all up in their highly evolved imaginations.
You mean you can SOLO to max level? Only smart people should be able to advance their character in groups. Actually, we should be able to use target dummies to train our skills alone, like in UO, because that required brains and higher thinking.
AND, you can reach max level in a few months??? Thats for dumb people. It should take months just to gain 1 level. It should take MONTHS of camping spawn points.
Instances are for dumb people. Everyone should have to wait in line for content and/or do it at 3am when no one else is around.
Instant travel is for dumb people. We should have to walk everywhere. Mounts are much too fast. It requires brains to walk. Smart people walk.
That was only a small collection of what SMART people have been saying. They're not direct quotes, but its not far off. Thats what it all sounds like when people criticize working game mechanics. Thats what makes WOW DUMB. You were so used to struggling with everything, that when you didn't have to, it felt wrong for you. Struggling playing a game doesn't make it smart. It certainly doesn't make you smart for playing it. Paying for a Beta test doesn't require brains and thats what most MMORPGs are, years into their life cycles. WOW was technically finished at release. It provided you with an actual game to play. There was something to do. Must be for dumb people then. Smart people don't need to be told what to do. You figure it all out yourselves.
If calling WOW dumbed down somehow makes you feel smarter, be happy that theres plenty of broken MMORPGs out there that all us DUMB people refuse to play;)
Not everyone hates WoW, its just that so many people have played it, that you have a much larger group of vocal people speaking out against it, which is compounded by blizzard's image as greedy corporation swimming in cash. The biggest, most successful product on any market will come under heavy scrutiny. It's funny though, how half those people that dislike the game so much still play it. It's been almost a year since I played the game, but when I did I thought it was fun. When something gets boring, as WoW, or any other game will, just move on. No need to let the whole world know how disatisfied you are, the fact is, WoW is one of the best, if not the best MMO ever, and most people that "hate" it liked it at some point in time.
I dont think it is the best MMO ever, no. It is good, the sub numbers speak for themselves, but if you look at the core of the game after the first grind to 60, or 70 now I guess.
Ii quit pre-bc so for me it was..
Grind, get mc key and grind items for mc, grind items from mc for bwl, grind items from bwl for aq, grind aq and bwl for naxx.
Dont forget to grind pot mats for all of them, and in your spare time relax by either a)grinding arathi/warsong with your 15 man raid group or b)being repeatedly taken apart by 15man raid grps grindings for rep and rank. I swear to god that blizzard tried to advertise that you wouldnt have to do such grinding in there game, before it launched.
And I hear it is worse now. Alot of people still love it and alot will join in the future but everyone will see the light and realise it is just a big pointless cycle of grinding.
I did have good times in 1st boss kills, and a nice guild, but still the core is pointless grinding. The crafting system is pointless, people in guilds grind for pot mats and they get the pots free, no space for independent traders to make money, crafted gear is far inferior to raid gear. The only thing for crafters with a point is enchanting. It wasnt rly player driven in the war potbs will be, or EVE, everything was mapped out for guilds to do, and pvp left no impression on the world, nor did death have consequences.
Overall the only way to make a name for yourself was by having the best raid gear, or being the first to high warlord etc, in other words being the best at grinding. I know grinding is common to all MMORPG games but WoW was extreme, and completly orientated around it.
Your seriousness only makes your support for Guild Wars all the more hilarious. Its awful. The fighting system is boring, klunky, and lacks action as a result of forcing you to stand still while attacking. The game is a slightly improved korean rpg with a lowered lvl cap and limited class and skill selection. The game has no direction, no premise, and no lasting value. You have the gaul to compare this cookie cutter lineage 2 knock off to WoW? Rofl.
First off, I'm not really playing much of anything right now, so don't think I'm out to talk about how great my current addiction is. I haven't touched Guild Wars in weeks, and probably won't for a good while still.
Normally I just ignore blatant uninformed idiocy. Normally, I don't even post on these forums. Normally, I understand and accept that fanboyism, like addiction, is a brain disease and all that. Normally, I just leave that crowd to their drool and crayons... But today isn't a normal day, and something smells like bullsh*t, seasoned with idiocy, and topped off with a huge helping of Fanboi Flakes.
I've played Lineage II. I've played Guild Wars. I've played a good deal of WoW, I've watched, and played in, those "wonderfully tactically diverse" grind- er.. Raids.
Lineage II has a twofold purpose:
1: Grind. You spend hours, days, weeks killing monsters in an environment largely like any other korean MMO. You have a class, that class has skills, you use them and stuff dies. You get experience, you heal up, rinse, and repeat. Extends to trying to get equipment drops.
2: PvP. From the sound of it, hardcore Guild vs Guild pvp is the flavor of choice in Lineage. I'll admit I haven't participated in this part of the game, but based on the system, it's pretty standard fare, swap real people for monsters, add in an objective to capture.
Your skills are determined by your class, they're relatively linear, and there isn't much in the way of customization of builds aside from which skills the player wants to use.
As such, it's a fine example of "A slightly improved korean rpg with limited class and skill selection", as you put it.
WoW has a different sort of progression from Lineage... oh, wait.
1: Getting to the level cap. This part is relatively entertaining and well paced. You've got quests to offer some kind of storyline, the occasional short grind, and even some smaller group raids. You level up at a speed that is appropriate for casual play, and you have the rest system charging up a double xp period while in town or logged out.
2: At the level cap. This part is relatively... boring. You get yourself a nice raiding guild, you meet and waste hours of your life several times a week (varies with activity of guild) doing raids. But wait! raids have monsters that are hard! and they take skill!! Bull. The group progresses through the dungeon/area, and stops when told to. characters pull monsters when told to, then the fighting gets "good". (By "good", I refer to that amazingdynamic new battle system that Blizzard clearly invented wherein.. get this: healers heal! Tanks tank! Buffers buff! Debuffers debuff! and DD's DPS! A-Frickin-Mazing. I've seen the light.). Oh, almost missed something. You move around sometimes so that you avoid aggro or get out of the way of an AOE attack. Guess where else I've seen this? oh! I know! FFXI!.... Hell, I think I saw it somewhere else too.... Oh! EverQuest! Where else have I seen combat with such depth and complexity? Right, Lineage II! Yup, this stuff was original.. back in 1997. On top of that, you've got guild mechanics to deal with. You'll be doing the same damn raids over and over and over just to have a chance at that epic gear (read: Carrot in front of the nose), because you either have to get lucky with the draws, or earn the DKP for it. Sounds like a boring, repetitive grind to me.
Now I won't lie, there are other things to do in WoW.. You can PvP, for example. Whoo. I go to contested or enemy territory, I kill the players, half the time when they're just trying to do quests or level up. Don't even throw town raiding onto the table. "Whoo hoo! I killed every NPC in town! Now they'll... just....respawn." Oh, and you can get some honor points for (insert carrot here)... More grinding.
Alternatively, there is the arena. Enter, fight against another team, other individuals, whatever. Win or lose. Get your points, repeat till you have the points to get the newest carrot-on-a-stick armor Blizzard's made for you.
Lastly, you can craft. This is a pretty blatant grind. Get materials, click an item name, click "make". Succeed or fail. Rinse, repeat hundreds of times. This one is approaching pointless from the start, as eventually anything you can make is outpaced by the raid and pvp loot anyway.
And don't let me forget the amazing character customization! For each race you have... a few general looks and hairstyles. I'm celebrating already.
Guild Wars was actually story driven. You never had to grind if you didn't want to. You could pretty much do quests and consistently be at an appropriate level for whatever you would be coming up against next. Typically, you reach the level cap WELL before the end of any campaign, but that's probably why most everything you encounter in the larger part of every campaign is endgame-level. See, Guild Wars actually did something novel in that you have to be able to understand how classes and subclasses, character attributes, and skills work together in order to be at all effective, and you have to be able to utilize the resulting character well in a team to succeed. The point of Guild Wars in PvE is to enjoy the story and progress through the challenges offered by your quests and missions, which are relatively varied compared to the "Kill this, bring me three roots, and talk to him over there, and I'll give you a new helmet" stuff seen so often in WoW. When the game's over, it's over. If you want, you can grind away at some very difficult endgame areas for materials for prestige gear, but that gear isn't any better than the stuff you can earn with relative ease, it just has a unique appearance to acknowledge your accomplishments.
Like WoW, Guild Wars has pvp offerings, though most are arena style. Typical 1v1 with 3 hero NPC's each, 4v4 random teams, 4v4 planned teams(in survival, kill count, and protect the priest flavors), and 8v8 Kill the King style play is available (the last only to guilds), and also 6v6(sometimes v6) arenas wherein the objectives change with each battle. Am I going to tout this as the best thing ever? nope.. Am I going to say it's better than WoW's? Probably. The people here are doing it 'cause they enjoy it (not for that uber loot that they can get if they just spend three more hours a day playing), and are using their ability to design and use an effective character (in the way of gear customization, attributes, and skill choices), and their ability to act in battle (maneuvering, timing skills to the quarter-second, and observing the enemy for the opportunity to disable them or attack). No one setup can just stroll up and get lucky with a few crit nukes to instakill one player after another. No person is guaranteed to win a fight because they wasted months of their life grinding instances for some gear.
I'm not sure where you heard Guild Wars was cookie cutter, but it's got 9 classes, each with around a hundred skills available to them. Add that to the fact that you're choosing 8 at any given time from the skills of both your primary and secondary class, and I call that customization. Add THAT to the fact that you can change your attributes and skills around whenver you're in town, and later on your subclass as well, and I call that innovative. Sure you've got a skillbar orf 8 skills, but unlike WoW, where a healing priest has (optimally) the same gear as the next healer priest and the same points invested into one of three talent trees, (Now who was calling cookie cutter again?) two healers in Guild Wars may not use a single skill alike, Hell, they may not even be the same class, and they can be just as effective. Some healers will even heal strictly by reversing and blocking damage done to a player.... That's not cookie cutter, that's well-thought-out strategy. On top of that, the 6-10 or so attributes you use to customize how well your character uses certain types of skills is simple and straightforward.
Want to use Healing spells to heal? Healing Prayers might be a good attribute to max out.. Granted, you could always just go with Divine Favor and protection prayers attributes to heal and buff at the same time.. Choosing where and when to fire off your 1/4 second 3s recharge shield to counter a particular attack and outdo a standard healer in the process takes a little more skill than dropping a fort buff on your crew every 5 minutes. When the 'healing class' can tank or nuke, the Fighters will use magic to compliment their fighting skills, and the archers can depend solely on necromancy for damage and healing while directing their pet to help them out, all in combat that is far faster paced than WoW or LII, "cookie cutter" just doesn't seem to fit.
And I dunno who's lying to the addicted swarm, but comparing WoW and GW's graphics isn't a matter of "wow has superior artistic style" or "GW's graphics suck". WoW's graphics aren't bad, but they aren't great either. Guild Wars isn't the best, but it's certainly a long sight better than what WoW offers. I'll take the well textured decently modeled world over the chunky, lazily textured WoW world any day.
GRIND: endgame, affects balance Optional, no effect on balance Mandatory.
Customization: Few effective builds Tons of effective class setups A skill tree? maybe?
for each class
Dependent on Nope, not really. No fee, Just a bajillion
Carrot/addiction : Always and equipment is equal. XP to level 67!
In the end , WoW is far closer to being a Lineage II clone than Guld Wars.
Am I saying one is better for me, you, or the other guy? Nope. I'm just pointing out how utterly misinformed some morons are.
Next time just spare the objective folks the trouble and keep your damn mouth shut.
By the way: I never see a warrior stand still and attack in GW... and congratulations on summoning one measly tank. GW necroes can summon eight... and a bigger tank, and three ranged beasts at the same time. or whatever other mix they feel like.
thank you for saying everyting i wanted to say...but better. and guild wars is not the only game i support.
Originally posted by KirinShadow Originally posted by Kaiaphas Your seriousness only makes your support for Guild Wars all the more hilarious. Its awful. The fighting system is boring, klunky, and lacks action as a result of forcing you to stand still while attacking. The game is a slightly improved korean rpg with a lowered lvl cap and limited class and skill selection. The game has no direction, no premise, and no lasting value. You have the gaul to compare this cookie cutter lineage 2 knock off to WoW? Rofl.
First off, I'm not really playing much of anything right now, so don't think I'm out to talk about how great my current addiction is. I haven't touched Guild Wars in weeks, and probably won't for a good while still. Normally I just ignore blatant uninformed idiocy. Normally, I don't even post on these forums. Normally, I understand and accept that fanboyism, like addiction, is a brain disease and all that. Normally, I just leave that crowd to their drool and crayons... But today isn't a normal day, and something smells like bullsh*t, seasoned with idiocy, and topped off with a huge helping of Fanboi Flakes. I've played Lineage II. I've played Guild Wars. I've played a good deal of WoW, I've watched, and played in, those "wonderfully tactically diverse" grind- er.. Raids. Lineage II has a twofold purpose: 1: Grind. You spend hours, days, weeks killing monsters in an environment largely like any other korean MMO. You have a class, that class has skills, you use them and stuff dies. You get experience, you heal up, rinse, and repeat. Extends to trying to get equipment drops. 2: PvP. From the sound of it, hardcore Guild vs Guild pvp is the flavor of choice in Lineage. I'll admit I haven't participated in this part of the game, but based on the system, it's pretty standard fare, swap real people for monsters, add in an objective to capture. Your skills are determined by your class, they're relatively linear, and there isn't much in the way of customization of builds aside from which skills the player wants to use. As such, it's a fine example of "A slightly improved korean rpg with limited class and skill selection", as you put it. WoW has a different sort of progression from Lineage... oh, wait. 1: Getting to the level cap. This part is relatively entertaining and well paced. You've got quests to offer some kind of storyline, the occasional short grind, and even some smaller group raids. You level up at a speed that is appropriate for casual play, and you have the rest system charging up a double xp period while in town or logged out. 2: At the level cap. This part is relatively... boring. You get yourself a nice raiding guild, you meet and waste hours of your life several times a week (varies with activity of guild) doing raids. But wait! raids have monsters that are hard! and they take skill!! Bull. The group progresses through the dungeon/area, and stops when told to. characters pull monsters when told to, then the fighting gets "good". (By "good", I refer to that amazing dynamic new battle system that Blizzard clearly invented wherein.. get this: healers heal! Tanks tank! Buffers buff! Debuffers debuff! and DD's DPS! A-Frickin-Mazing. I've seen the light.). Oh, almost missed something. You move around sometimes so that you avoid aggro or get out of the way of an AOE attack. Guess where else I've seen this? oh! I know! FFXI!.... Hell, I think I saw it somewhere else too.... Oh! EverQuest! Where else have I seen combat with such depth and complexity? Right, Lineage II! Yup, this stuff was original.. back in 1997. On top of that, you've got guild mechanics to deal with. You'll be doing the same damn raids over and over and over just to have a chance at that epic gear (read: Carrot in front of the nose), because you either have to get lucky with the draws, or earn the DKP for it. Sounds like a boring, repetitive grind to me. Now I won't lie, there are other things to do in WoW.. You can PvP, for example. Whoo. I go to contested or enemy territory, I kill the players, half the time when they're just trying to do quests or level up. Don't even throw town raiding onto the table. "Whoo hoo! I killed every NPC in town! Now they'll... just....respawn." Oh, and you can get some honor points for (insert carrot here)... More grinding. Alternatively, there is the arena. Enter, fight against another team, other individuals, whatever. Win or lose. Get your points, repeat till you have the points to get the newest carrot-on-a-stick armor Blizzard's made for you. Lastly, you can craft. This is a pretty blatant grind. Get materials, click an item name, click "make". Succeed or fail. Rinse, repeat hundreds of times. This one is approaching pointless from the start, as eventually anything you can make is outpaced by the raid and pvp loot anyway. And don't let me forget the amazing character customization! For each race you have... a few general looks and hairstyles. I'm celebrating already. Guild Wars was actually story driven. You never had to grind if you didn't want to. You could pretty much do quests and consistently be at an appropriate level for whatever you would be coming up against next. Typically, you reach the level cap WELL before the end of any campaign, but that's probably why most everything you encounter in the larger part of every campaign is endgame-level. See, Guild Wars actually did something novel in that you have to be able to understand how classes and subclasses, character attributes, and skills work together in order to be at all effective, and you have to be able to utilize the resulting character well in a team to succeed. The point of Guild Wars in PvE is to enjoy the story and progress through the challenges offered by your quests and missions, which are relatively varied compared to the "Kill this, bring me three roots, and talk to him over there, and I'll give you a new helmet" stuff seen so often in WoW. When the game's over, it's over. If you want, you can grind away at some very difficult endgame areas for materials for prestige gear, but that gear isn't any better than the stuff you can earn with relative ease, it just has a unique appearance to acknowledge your accomplishments. Like WoW, Guild Wars has pvp offerings, though most are arena style. Typical 1v1 with 3 hero NPC's each, 4v4 random teams, 4v4 planned teams(in survival, kill count, and protect the priest flavors), and 8v8 Kill the King style play is available (the last only to guilds), and also 6v6(sometimes v6) arenas wherein the objectives change with each battle. Am I going to tout this as the best thing ever? nope.. Am I going to say it's better than WoW's? Probably. The people here are doing it 'cause they enjoy it (not for that uber loot that they can get if they just spend three more hours a day playing), and are using their ability to design and use an effective character (in the way of gear customization, attributes, and skill choices), and their ability to act in battle (maneuvering, timing skills to the quarter-second, and observing the enemy for the opportunity to disable them or attack). No one setup can just stroll up and get lucky with a few crit nukes to instakill one player after another. No person is guaranteed to win a fight because they wasted months of their life grinding instances for some gear. I'm not sure where you heard Guild Wars was cookie cutter, but it's got 9 classes, each with around a hundred skills available to them. Add that to the fact that you're choosing 8 at any given time from the skills of both your primary and secondary class, and I call that customization. Add THAT to the fact that you can change your attributes and skills around whenver you're in town, and later on your subclass as well, and I call that innovative. Sure you've got a skillbar orf 8 skills, but unlike WoW, where a healing priest has (optimally) the same gear as the next healer priest and the same points invested into one of three talent trees, (Now who was calling cookie cutter again?) two healers in Guild Wars may not use a single skill alike, Hell, they may not even be the same class, and they can be just as effective. Some healers will even heal strictly by reversing and blocking damage done to a player.... That's not cookie cutter, that's well-thought-out strategy. On top of that, the 6-10 or so attributes you use to customize how well your character uses certain types of skills is simple and straightforward. Want to use Healing spells to heal? Healing Prayers might be a good attribute to max out.. Granted, you could always just go with Divine Favor and protection prayers attributes to heal and buff at the same time.. Choosing where and when to fire off your 1/4 second 3s recharge shield to counter a particular attack and outdo a standard healer in the process takes a little more skill than dropping a fort buff on your crew every 5 minutes. When the 'healing class' can tank or nuke, the Fighters will use magic to compliment their fighting skills, and the archers can depend solely on necromancy for damage and healing while directing their pet to help them out, all in combat that is far faster paced than WoW or LII, "cookie cutter" just doesn't seem to fit. And I dunno who's lying to the addicted swarm, but comparing WoW and GW's graphics isn't a matter of "wow has superior artistic style" or "GW's graphics suck". WoW's graphics aren't bad, but they aren't great either. Guild Wars isn't the best, but it's certainly a long sight better than what WoW offers. I'll take the well textured decently modeled world over the chunky, lazily textured WoW world any day. so, in summary. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WoW GW L2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GRIND: endgame, affects balance Optional, no effect on balance Mandatory.
Customization: Few effective builds Tons of effective class setups A skill tree? maybe? for each class Dependent on Nope, not really. No fee, Just a bajillion Carrot/addiction : Always and equipment is equal. XP to level 67!
In the end , WoW is far closer to being a Lineage II clone than Guld Wars. Am I saying one is better for me, you, or the other guy? Nope. I'm just pointing out how utterly misinformed some morons are. Next time just spare the objective folks the trouble and keep your damn mouth shut. By the way: I never see a warrior stand still and attack in GW... and congratulations on summoning one measly tank. GW necroes can summon eight... and a bigger tank, and three ranged beasts at the same time. or whatever other mix they feel like.
Kirin, can i hug you? Please?
In all seriousnes kids, this is one of the best, most thought out post i've really quite seen on these forums in a whiles. It was well written, all points had valid support to them and it was all done in a non-demeaning manner, while being simple to read for the fanbois of the pack. In all honesty i'm jealous i dont have the attention span to write something so concise unless i've been up for 36hours + and have a beer in my hand.
Congratulations on a wonderful, well thought out post.
Cheers!
"And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."
It's very much a case of hating the successful and popular by self-proclaimed elite gamers for bringing the unwashed masses in large numbers into their previously unpolluted refuge of MMO eliteness.
Blizzard had a vision: let's take a niche market product (MMOs, which were, pre-WoW, and despite the success of EQ, nevertheless a niche compared to the gaming market overall), drill out much of the tedium, complexity and so forth that tend to make people stay away from the product, repackage it in an accessible forum that not only runs on many systems, but which allows the average gamer to progress and have fun. That was the vision for WoW and it was executed nearly perfectly. The flaw, of course, was the level 60 end-game which was not designed for most gamers, but many people stayed anyway, working on alts, playing another faction, etc., because they found the 1-60 content a lot of fun, despite that glaring end-game inconsistency. Design-wise, the strength of the 1-60 game is what has gotten the high level of subscriptions and maintained them, despite the more hardcore end-game design (at least the one that prevailed before TBC) - and it's the strength of that design and its closeness to the core vision for the game that has made WoW a tremendous success.
The "cost" of that success has been that of course WoW has created expectations among the new market of MMO gamers it's basically created itself, ranging from interface to accessibility to playability -- and the "core" gamers resent this influence, and so end up bashing Blizzard for essentially being too succesful at what they set out to do. So it's very much de rigeur to hate WoW if you're one of the more elite gaming types -- in fact, it is almost like a badge of eliteness, or evidence of a rite-of-passage to eliteness.
I like your point. WoW opened up the market to new MMORPG makers, while also leaving gamers with higher expectations for new MMORPGs.
I hope future MMORPG developers decide to meet those expectations. For the better!
People hate WoW because it is World of Warcraft, currently the most popular game and gaining more members and fans every single day. It is easy to hate. It steals players from other games as well as draws in it's own. NOT fair. But honestly, I can see why it does: I think it is a well-made game, and deserves how many players it has. Plus it has amazing customer service. There isn't much for the more casual player not to like.
Lol, you must be trolling or being sarcastic about the customer support part.
Get back to your dead games losers, ie:- 1)Archlord 2)Everquest 3)SWG 4)GW 5)Coh/V 6)VsoH 7)Eve Let us 8 million + customers carry on playing, while you elitist monkeys carry on jumping from one game to another every 10 mins looking for something new, Newsflash all the games you keep calling wow killers or better games, die at relsease or die at the hands of wow. Call me a wow fanboy, does not matter. Problem with most of you losers is that u claim to hate wow only to look cool, as this is the new fashion. For like months now, people been wrtitng on vanguard forums, that its gona be pmg wtf imba best game ever, lol. You idiots sure got fooled there didnt you. When age of conan fails to deliver along with warhammer, you whining little elitist losers will cry even more,lol. Carry on crying. The majority of the people claiming to hate wow, actually play wow and still do. Majority of people caliming to hate wow, do so to be cool on forums " look at me im cool i hate wow".
I wrote this in the 10 secs i was on the gryphon:) have a nice day babies, while u eltists cry babies carry on looking for a new game eevry 10 mins, only people you are fooling are yourselves.
ps. also when lotr fails as well hope you cry even more,lol
Comments
I love it when people bring out the "Blizzard doesnt care" and "Blizzard makes sooo much money" crap.
You assert that Guild Wars is story driven? In what way? That it has a pointless introduction scene which transitions to the collapse of the world as result of some warring monster tribe? That is where the story begins and ends. The rest of the odds and ends quest they will do to lvl up do not reflect an continuing sotry, they reflect being in a world with a history as a backdrop.
Guild Wars is cookie cutter in that in no real way does it express differences from the games who borrowed the Lineage 2 engine. It seperates itself from the core engine through its different skills (a lot are just run of the mill). Aside from that its just a point and click mess.
You don't have to grind in GW? Eh? You most certainly have to quest to receive XP to lvl up. WoW offers the exact same grinding alternative. If WoW's focus is on grinding in light of the reliance on quests then GW is as well. GW's quests run out quickly which forces you to move to another area to level up. The GW questing was slapped together.
I too have played Lineage 2 and come to the conclusion that GW and it have similiarities in many areas. Considering that GW was created from the Lineage 2 engine I'm not sure why you're so shocked by this.
1. They are reliant on fixed location combat systems which revolve around a few select number of usuable PVP moves.
2. Their pvp systems are loaded with problems which reliate to the aforementioned reliance on sedintary PVP; Casters have tremendous advantages over melee thusly melee is a dull and unrealistic experience. In this Lineage 2 and GW have much in common.
The systems which govern GW and Lineage are both highly reliant on casting times and are highly simplistic in nature. They both show little effort in applying server position predictions and thusly lack action.
Reaching the lvl cap. For me GW reguired more grinding than did WoW. Being that GW is free its a far more simplistic game and lacks a good deal of content. WoW on the other hand provides you with developed quests that supply not only XP but items and gear as well. In short they were far more rewarding than GW's questing.
You notion of what happens at the lvl cap brings us back to the issue of uninformed idiocy. In WoW you don't have to Raid grind for anything. As a function of TBC and the Honor System players can acquire items, weapons and gear from PVP and PVE. PVPing/PVEing for REP/Honor is a breeze and provides you with what you want through various avenues of play. In Guild Wars what do you do when you hit the cap? At this point the game is nothing more than a constant repetition of the game's unispired PVP. In lineage 2 all that is left is fight in the Arena. Though in Lineage 2 you have more skills to work with.
You complain about crafting as a grind? You don't have to craft if grinding a problem. Its a grind to force you to work for what you need rather than just providing it to you? Unlike GW, WoW has more developed content built around a certain amount of work. GW doesn't offer much and allows you to create a character at the lvl cap and just pvp all day - the only point of the game.
Of course WoW's endgame will effect PVP better gear often does. Being that the game is more complex than GW which is based solely around PVP and lacks developed PVE one has along to buy or grind for the best gear available and then PVP all day. If you grow bored of pvping all the time then there's nothing else for you.
I think what you're looking for is "copy" not "learn game design from". Originality is a long way off in game design, and with the corporate side of the industry pushing for numbers like WoW has, nobody will risk an untested type of game.
If it is copied once or twice, then its "copy". When it is changing the evolution and design for years to come... then its "learning design". Good or bad, WoW is a classroom, and developers sit there as students right now, it has and will have an impact on every desicion in every game that will be developed in the next several years. That is not merelly "copy"
I dont support and I am not against... Its just an observation.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
Someone's missing the point. Yeah, I have 8 PvP skills.. FOR THIS FIGHT. I can come back with a completely different skillset (chosen from hundreds) within minutes, or less, on the same character. This is unlike WoW, where you have some 30-40 skills total, and two different experiences would be where you put your bonus points to enhance the skill effects. It is also unlike Lineage, where you're stuck in one set of skills you chose from the skill/class tree.
Secondly, take it from a mage, Warriors, assassins, and rangers have kicked my ass to high heaven and back on several classes, and I've seen 'em do it to all kinds of mages with ease. Mages do not have an advantage in GW.
Where's the point and click mess? Most people I know almost exclusively play with their keyboard... even for targetting and everything else.
When I say storyline, What I'm referring to is the Mission system. you COULD explore a significant chunk of the world on foot, but you're much better off (and you participate in an actual story, unlike what you're claiming) doing missions. They're zones of their own in which you complete specific objectives alongside storyline characters and watch scenes that advance the tale as you lead the Ascalon Refugees (using prophecies campaign as an example).
At endgame in Guild Wars you're done, Go PvP if you want to, otherwise just don't play.
I've been pointing out repeatedly that LII and WoW both work on the carrot-on-a-stick principal. Get your players addicted to the new shinies they get with each accomplishment, and make sure there's plenty of timesink that quickly becomes a second job between them and said shinies. Works like a charm, and generates addicts like yourself, who staunchly believe a game must dominate hours of their life per day, and see no faults in the game they play. Therein lies the difference. GW ends, it's over, you can try out different characters if you want, but otherwise do what is fun for you. Heck, go play WoW, I've done that too. Had some fun with a Druid. Whatever floats your boat.
Quit trying to argue with me like I'm a GW fanboy claiming it's better than WoW, I'm not. I'm just pointing out that you clearly know nothing about it, and just like the hundreds of other hopelessly addicted people doing just like you are now, are insisting that no other game is allowed to have merits of their own. Don't think I don't recognize the syndrome, I was just like you once, and it took a good bit of time for me to see things as they really are.
-Cheers, and good luck on the eventual recovery. Remember, acceptance is the first step.
Harafnir:
I agree that it's a classroom, The simplistic system and clear forethought are really the big lessons .The lessons lie in their skillful use of a system that is friendly to casual players and previous non-gamers and still pulls off the carrot-on-a-stick tactic swimmingly for the players who get hardcore hooked.
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Society: Reaching new lows every day.
I forgot to post something awhile ago 3 pages back, about the community. I hate the fact that players curse you out, stalk you, talk Scheiße, then you fight back and get reported to a GM. I told a GM what the hell? I remember back in the day of ShadowBane you do NOT talk trash if you we're a lesser guild with like one castle. Say something slick to the wrong guy and 5 minutes later you got a Bane stone outside your town and 70 gung-ho pissed off guys are waiting to crumble your city.
I wont lie the GM's did enforce rules, like temp bans and such but they should have extremely harsh penalties for crap like that, week ban you argue and the GM is in a bad mood, two weeks! Hell perma-ban their account and CC (or their mommy's CC for that matter). Oh well I don't play WoW anymore but like I said, I don't hate WoW just the community is absolute garbage.
296 post on this... I didn't read through all of it but it's still fun to see it pop up once in a while...
Anyways, guess I'm bored enough to put my own opinion on WoW...
Personally I DON'T hate WoW. It does have its merits when it comes to being a good MMORPG to start or to play. I'm more disappointed that BECAUSE of its success, that many games are following the same format (although this format has been going on for quite a while now, even before WoW's success). This trend is damaging the creative ideas in MMOs, and there has been at least ONE case of a game got destroyed and turn into WoW-ish gameplay (if you can't guess it, it's SWG... ).
So I DON'T hate WoW, I just get angry whenever I see my SWG collector's edition box lying in my room, and I blame WoW for the trend, and I blame SOE for doing the stuff they do...
Anyways, don't mind me... I'm just bored...
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
There's no need to slam people who like to play MMOs, by the way. Not everyone is an "addict", and throwing around labels like that is both dangerous and woefully off-target. Some people are truly addicted, but most people play casually and are not addicted at all. It's hopeless to generalize, and it doesn't add anything to the discussion, to be honest.
I'm not throwing around labels, I love playing MMO's myself. I just recognized in that guy the symptoms that I saw in myself when I spent a year logging in to FFXI almost every day without fail for several hours. It really blinds you to a number of things, just like a drug. That's an addict. It's the difference between saying "I think this game is good" and rabidly insisting "This is the best! period! Everything else is bad!". I insisted that FFXI was more challenging or whatever, but in all truth, it's like WoW but more honest: that life-wasting grind is present from the early levels.
I agree that the instancing destroys the persistence of the world. I barely qualify GW as an MMO. The one and only point I was trying to make was that GW is very different from Lineage II, whereas WoW shares many similarities with it. Heck, I very well may play WoW come summer, though that's in significant part to it being to me like Mc Donalds or Wal Mart. It's nothing special to me, I see plenty of content I could enjoy, and I have several real friends I could do stuff with on there.
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Society: Reaching new lows every day.
*quests vs open grinding (sure quests are disguised grinding and some of them are uninspired, but many of WoW's quests are fun, and they drive things forward in an entertaining way, whereas in L2 it's almost all open grinding)
*leveling pace is vastly different, and L2 is much more of a grind for the entire game, whereas much of WoW's grind is confined to the endgame
*economy in L2 is really broken, most people buy Adena, it is very hard to play legit in the game
Now you can say that these are "variations on a theme", but to be honest the variations have a huge impact on how gameplay feels. As a result while I think you can say that WoW and L2 are of the same "family" of games in that they each involve leveling and time investment to reach goals in the levels ahead, the differences between them make for vastly different play experiences, and I think many more players find WoW's approach to be entertaining than is the case for L2 -- at least in the West. I don't see GW as being much like L2, either, but I think smushing WoW and L2 together to disprove a comparison someone else was making between GW and L2 distorts the big differences between WoW and L2, and understates the importance of these diffrences on the overall play experience and hence the relative popularity of the two games.
thanks for clearing that up. My experiences in L2 were early in its life, and relatively limited, I'll admit.
I really would like to see if some people don't want to try and analyze the "magic ratio" or whatever it is that WoW clearly got so right from a marketing standpoint. It may reveal a way to outperform it that are actually innovative by appealing to the same general taste in a new way.
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Society: Reaching new lows every day.
Missions? I remember quite a few of the missions I completed lvl 1-15 and they had absolutely nothing that I would you say expressed a continuing world story. Each of them addressed some kind of story line but lacked the player involvement that WoW instances such as the Scarlet Monastery share. In reality you go lvl 1-15 experiencing only trivial minor story lines which revolve around irrelevant characters' requests.
You can play L2 with a keyboard too but its built around point and click and can be played effectively in such a fashion. Being that GW is based on the same tired battle scheme as L2 its effectively played with point and click methods too. In order to fight you must remain rooted, why steer with the keyboard when the game's tank controls serve little tactical purpose. The game can be played efficiently with one hand. This speaks volumes about its complexity.
You've summed up Guild War's endgame aptly. PVP or nothing. The game provides nothing else. At least you can raid and castle siege in Lineage 2. Its bizzare that you later turn around and state you can do as you please when the grounds work isn't there to do much outside of PVP. There are no real PVE incentives. Once you grow bored of the limited pvp system the game is through.
I find it ironic that you complain about WoW's endgame "grinds". At least there's something other than the same old thing to do ad infinitum.
What you call Carrot on a stick philosophy I call postive incentives. You prosper based on a limited amount of work required. This is an acceptable lose to gain much in return. GW on the other hand provides you everything upfront, because well, there's nothing to the game. You can do everything there is to do in the game within a month and be completely bored a month later. What you see as a wonderful aspect of the game I see as a poor way to run a business. Its good thing they instance the game in such a way to minimize bandwidth otherwise they'd likely be in the red.
Quite arguing with you like you're a GW fanboy? You've sang the praises for this overly simplistic game as though there is something of merit to it. Any game that gives you everything upfront is not built to last and the rest of the title reflects this. I'm not trying to make it seem like you've said the game is better than WoW, i'm simply point out that my assement of the game is based on sound comparisons and reason. The game is a pvp focused, PVE castrated version of L2 with more spell flexibility. Aside from the interchangability of the casting system its still the same old tired PVP system that L2 employed.
You've not point out that I know nothing about it you've proven you really don't have a position to defend.
You call my comparison unimformed and then turn around and admit you don't really know the game that's being compared to GW and even go as far as to some completely absurd assertions about L2 and its comparability to WoW. Comedy gold.
Now that I look back I realize you never responded to anything in my post address your summation of WoW's endgame. Apparently you'r not to familiar with it either.
See, there's your first mistake... GW doesn't have "uber" skills. It has skills. Some work better in certain combinations than others I think the only one that I've never considered using in a design was "Shameful Waste", for obvious reasons.
As for missions... Er, You sure we played the same game? I'm not talking about the quests, those are pretty average. I'm talking about the actual missions, and those weren't random stories.. they all followed the same people.. The first 7 or so consisted of you fighting alongside Prince Rurik to push back the Charr, and then proceeds to follow rurik after he and his followers are in exile... I'd say that's contiguous.
Maybe it's just me, but what I've seen of instances in WoW had two things... You could read a brief wall of text, enter an instance, perhaps read a couple more walls of text from NPCs in there to get subquests, and kill bosses who were mentioned in a prior wall of text. I'm not going to say they're better or worse than GW, but they certainly don't seem all that in depth to me.
For all your talk about how short the game is, it's a pretty sorry admission to say you didn't even bother to play to level 20. I still haven't got a clue what tank controls you're talking about. I move, strafe, and rotate as needed. Movement is just like any FPS I'd play, barring that I have to hold down a mouse button or use arrow keys to rotate the camera (how terrible.)
I still fail to see how GW is based on the "same tired battle scheme" as L2.. L2 consisted of use the same few strongest skills repeatedly to fill the role dictated by your class. GW consists of designing and using the synergy of a skillset to perform the role you've chosen to perform at that time... I'd say that's fairly different. Almost every time I'd leave town, for example, my monk would function differently.
At the rate you're going, It would seem that anything that can be controlled with a mouse is simplistic. the only thing in WoW that you can't do with the mouse is walk... Everything else, you can do just fine with it. Wow. I'm ashamed. I never realized how complex a game WoW is because you cant walk with the mouse. Forgive me. Point is, that argument is pretty well moot. Secondly, anyone with brains playing GW would be using a keyboard because strafing is an essential skill to allow for dodging projectiles and spells. Hardly the controls of a tank.
Congratulations on failing miserably at disproving my point. You're consistently trying to sling crap at Guild Wars, which is worthless to your cause. I don't care if it's an outright awful game, that's not the point. The point is that it really isn't similar to Lineage II. It's barely an MMO for pete's sake! That said, it certainly has merit. It managed to provide much of the same experience people look for in an MMO in a competetive and casual environment, with a reasonable amount of depth, without requiring a subscription.
"You call my comparison unimformed and then turn around and admit you don't really know the game that's being compared to GW and even go as far as to some completely absurd assertions about L2 and its comparability to WoW."
-Care to call us even? All I ask is that you cease the absurd assertions about Guild Wars.
As for absurd assertions, Grind is Grind. Be it level grinding, or instance grinding, it's gaming that feels like work but is considered worthwhile due to so called "Incentives". People who spend a long time calling that "Depth" or "Challenge" tend to be ones who've gotten a little too into things. That's hardly an absurd assertion. And note: i was claiming that WoW is closer to LII overall than GW is, not singing praises of GW. Guild wars just happens to be something I can speak with significant authority about, so I am attempting to describe in detail the things that differentiate it from LII and even WoW. I see from your posts that all it's doing is agitating you, and you consistently attack the same stupid "It uses a mouse!" point. I'm terribly sorry that you saw the comparison as an attack on your precious. I'll be more careful not to appear to be assaulting WoW again.
Just to make it clear. I'm through discussing this. It's pointless, and we've derailed this topic for long enough. Maybe you'll eventually realize that I do recognize WoW has merits, and even recognize that LII has merits. I just wish you would do the same for other titles.
So then. On topic:
I read in another thread an interesting statistic... It claimed that while there are around 10 million players of MMOs in the US, only 2 million of WoW's subscribers are in the US, while 3.5 million are in China. That leaves 2.5 million distributed elsewhere. While it certainly doesn't diminish blizzard's accomplishment in gaining such a following, it may put it into perspective. While there ARE 8 million subscribers, you've got to consider where the people who we (let's say here) hear the opinions of. I won't be so brash as to claim that these forums are strictly US, I know they aren't, but for the sake of putting things in a different light, let's say they are. 2 million is only 1/5 of the US MMO market. That said, It's feasible that roughly 4/5 of the people on here presently do not play WoW. Considering that people who do not play the game are more likely to speak ill of it, It could very well simply appear that everyone hates WoW, while in fact the number is about on par with people who hate any other game. Combine that with the general resentment of players of games who they feel were "ruined" by WoW's influence, and the numbers seem like they make some sense. It very well may not be related to WoW lacking merit so much as simple probability and a bit of a grudge. Again, I'm claiming no statistical accuracy of my own, just posing something to think about.
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Society: Reaching new lows every day.
I'm finding it quite useless to argue with Kaiaphas mentality. Its really becomes quite a chore over anything else and quite annoying. he has the typical fanboi attitude and we'll just not be able to prove him wrong. ever. hell most of his post have come from this topic alone.
eat your heart out Kaiaphas
"And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."
*More quests, less pure grinding.
*Faster paced leveling scheme with fewer obvious timesinks (eg, easier/faster travel, manageable zone size, etc.).
*Intuitive and fluid interface that is easily grasped by the lay-person (i.e., a non-computer geek)
*Playable smoothly with nice-looking visuals on a wide variety of systems.
I think those are the big four that really drive WoW's success out the window. Yes, it got a big boost at the beginning from Blizzard/Warcraft fans,and that shouldn't be understated. But in the longer-term, I think it's these design issues that have made it so appealing to such a broad array of people.
The conflict on a board like this one is that the "advantages" I listed above are outright loathed by many of the posters here because they are seen as the hallmarks of a "dumbed-down" game. If that mentality persists among developers (and we've seen it recently with Sigil, for example), then the likelihood of making a game that has WoW's upsides combined with more innovation and originality becomes less, while the likelihood that less original developers will simply try to copy WoW's scheme becomes greater. That's the Catch-22.
" Quests that give you rewards and let you choose before hand??? Thats stupid. You shouldn't get rewards. You should have to grind and camp mobs for weeks to see progress!!!
"Talents shouldn't work. You should have to spend years of trial and error, rerolling characters over and over again in order to know whats good and whats not. A tool tip that describes the spell accurately? BLASPHEMY!!!"
"The developer shouldn't tell you how the game works. WE, the PLAYERS, should have to figure it all out ourselves, because we're SMART."
"A working Map that actually shows us the world and actually reveals it when we explore an area". Dumb. There should be no map at all. We should have to scribble it down on graph paper. You KNOW you used to do that=)
"NPCs that tell us if they have something to say." DUMB.
"Non realistic graphics!!! Thats for dumb kids." Sure hope NONE of you played Street FIghter, Mario or Pacman growing up? Sure hope none of you ever watched anime or enjoyed a Pixar movie, because its just for stupid dumb kids, right?
"A death penalty that doesn't force you to sit around doing nothing for 15 minutes or play for another few hours to recoup experience?" Thats for dumb people. You SMART people enjoy wasting your time I guess, since you have so much of it to throw around.
Cool weapons with stats to tweak. How stupid!!! There shouldn't be anything cool in the game. Smart people would rather imagine cool weapons I guess. Dumb people need it shown to them.
Ask an NPC for directions where something is and he actually tells you. Thats for stupid people too. Smart people don't need directions.
A working tutorial!!! Just for dumb people.
Tool tips are only for dumb people.
Zones that are seamless and have mountains around them. DUMB. We should have loading screens every 5 minutes. The world should look like a big empty golf course or desert, because smart people need big empty areas to explore, even if theres nothing of interest to see. Smart people like to imagine that huge empty zones that take a 1/2 hr to run across require brains.
Talent respecs are for stupid people. Smart people know exactly how their character should grow before they actually level. They should know if they like a talent before they choose it. If they don't like it, they should have to reroll, because SMART people don't make mistakes.
Quests shouldn't tell you what to do? Thats for dumb people. Smart people prefer guessing. Smart people actually don't need quests at all. Only dumb people need stories and purpose. Smart people make it all up in their highly evolved imaginations.
You mean you can SOLO to max level? Only smart people should be able to advance their character in groups. Actually, we should be able to use target dummies to train our skills alone, like in UO, because that required brains and higher thinking.
AND, you can reach max level in a few months??? Thats for dumb people. It should take months just to gain 1 level. It should take MONTHS of camping spawn points.
Instances are for dumb people. Everyone should have to wait in line for content and/or do it at 3am when no one else is around.
Instant travel is for dumb people. We should have to walk everywhere. Mounts are much too fast. It requires brains to walk. Smart people walk.
That was only a small collection of what SMART people have been saying. They're not direct quotes, but its not far off. Thats what it all sounds like when people criticize working game mechanics. Thats what makes WOW DUMB. You were so used to struggling with everything, that when you didn't have to, it felt wrong for you. Struggling playing a game doesn't make it smart. It certainly doesn't make you smart for playing it. Paying for a Beta test doesn't require brains and thats what most MMORPGs are, years into their life cycles. WOW was technically finished at release. It provided you with an actual game to play. There was something to do. Must be for dumb people then. Smart people don't need to be told what to do. You figure it all out yourselves.
If calling WOW dumbed down somehow makes you feel smarter, be happy that theres plenty of broken MMORPGs out there that all us DUMB people refuse to play;)
Not everyone hates WoW, its just that so many people have played it, that you have a much larger group of vocal people speaking out against it, which is compounded by blizzard's image as greedy corporation swimming in cash. The biggest, most successful product on any market will come under heavy scrutiny. It's funny though, how half those people that dislike the game so much still play it. It's been almost a year since I played the game, but when I did I thought it was fun. When something gets boring, as WoW, or any other game will, just move on. No need to let the whole world know how disatisfied you are, the fact is, WoW is one of the best, if not the best MMO ever, and most people that "hate" it liked it at some point in time.
I dont think it is the best MMO ever, no. It is good, the sub numbers speak for themselves, but if you look at the core of the game after the first grind to 60, or 70 now I guess.
Ii quit pre-bc so for me it was..
Grind, get mc key and grind items for mc, grind items from mc for bwl, grind items from bwl for aq, grind aq and bwl for naxx.
Dont forget to grind pot mats for all of them, and in your spare time relax by either a)grinding arathi/warsong with your 15 man raid group or b)being repeatedly taken apart by 15man raid grps grindings for rep and rank. I swear to god that blizzard tried to advertise that you wouldnt have to do such grinding in there game, before it launched.
And I hear it is worse now. Alot of people still love it and alot will join in the future but everyone will see the light and realise it is just a big pointless cycle of grinding.
I did have good times in 1st boss kills, and a nice guild, but still the core is pointless grinding. The crafting system is pointless, people in guilds grind for pot mats and they get the pots free, no space for independent traders to make money, crafted gear is far inferior to raid gear. The only thing for crafters with a point is enchanting. It wasnt rly player driven in the war potbs will be, or EVE, everything was mapped out for guilds to do, and pvp left no impression on the world, nor did death have consequences.
Overall the only way to make a name for yourself was by having the best raid gear, or being the first to high warlord etc, in other words being the best at grinding. I know grinding is common to all MMORPG games but WoW was extreme, and completly orientated around it.
First off, I'm not really playing much of anything right now, so don't think I'm out to talk about how great my current addiction is. I haven't touched Guild Wars in weeks, and probably won't for a good while still.
Normally I just ignore blatant uninformed idiocy. Normally, I don't even post on these forums. Normally, I understand and accept that fanboyism, like addiction, is a brain disease and all that. Normally, I just leave that crowd to their drool and crayons... But today isn't a normal day, and something smells like bullsh*t, seasoned with idiocy, and topped off with a huge helping of Fanboi Flakes.
I've played Lineage II. I've played Guild Wars. I've played a good deal of WoW, I've watched, and played in, those "wonderfully tactically diverse" grind- er.. Raids.
Lineage II has a twofold purpose:
1: Grind. You spend hours, days, weeks killing monsters in an environment largely like any other korean MMO. You have a class, that class has skills, you use them and stuff dies. You get experience, you heal up, rinse, and repeat. Extends to trying to get equipment drops.
2: PvP. From the sound of it, hardcore Guild vs Guild pvp is the flavor of choice in Lineage. I'll admit I haven't participated in this part of the game, but based on the system, it's pretty standard fare, swap real people for monsters, add in an objective to capture.
Your skills are determined by your class, they're relatively linear, and there isn't much in the way of customization of builds aside from which skills the player wants to use.
As such, it's a fine example of "A slightly improved korean rpg with limited class and skill selection", as you put it.
WoW has a different sort of progression from Lineage... oh, wait.
1: Getting to the level cap. This part is relatively entertaining and well paced. You've got quests to offer some kind of storyline, the occasional short grind, and even some smaller group raids. You level up at a speed that is appropriate for casual play, and you have the rest system charging up a double xp period while in town or logged out.
2: At the level cap. This part is relatively... boring. You get yourself a nice raiding guild, you meet and waste hours of your life several times a week (varies with activity of guild) doing raids. But wait! raids have monsters that are hard! and they take skill!! Bull. The group progresses through the dungeon/area, and stops when told to. characters pull monsters when told to, then the fighting gets "good". (By "good", I refer to that amazing dynamic new battle system that Blizzard clearly invented wherein.. get this: healers heal! Tanks tank! Buffers buff! Debuffers debuff! and DD's DPS! A-Frickin-Mazing. I've seen the light.). Oh, almost missed something. You move around sometimes so that you avoid aggro or get out of the way of an AOE attack. Guess where else I've seen this? oh! I know! FFXI!.... Hell, I think I saw it somewhere else too.... Oh! EverQuest! Where else have I seen combat with such depth and complexity? Right, Lineage II! Yup, this stuff was original.. back in 1997. On top of that, you've got guild mechanics to deal with. You'll be doing the same damn raids over and over and over just to have a chance at that epic gear (read: Carrot in front of the nose), because you either have to get lucky with the draws, or earn the DKP for it. Sounds like a boring, repetitive grind to me.
Now I won't lie, there are other things to do in WoW.. You can PvP, for example. Whoo. I go to contested or enemy territory, I kill the players, half the time when they're just trying to do quests or level up. Don't even throw town raiding onto the table. "Whoo hoo! I killed every NPC in town! Now they'll... just....respawn." Oh, and you can get some honor points for (insert carrot here)... More grinding.
Alternatively, there is the arena. Enter, fight against another team, other individuals, whatever. Win or lose. Get your points, repeat till you have the points to get the newest carrot-on-a-stick armor Blizzard's made for you.
Lastly, you can craft. This is a pretty blatant grind. Get materials, click an item name, click "make". Succeed or fail. Rinse, repeat hundreds of times. This one is approaching pointless from the start, as eventually anything you can make is outpaced by the raid and pvp loot anyway.
And don't let me forget the amazing character customization! For each race you have... a few general looks and hairstyles. I'm celebrating already.
Guild Wars was actually story driven. You never had to grind if you didn't want to. You could pretty much do quests and consistently be at an appropriate level for whatever you would be coming up against next. Typically, you reach the level cap WELL before the end of any campaign, but that's probably why most everything you encounter in the larger part of every campaign is endgame-level. See, Guild Wars actually did something novel in that you have to be able to understand how classes and subclasses, character attributes, and skills work together in order to be at all effective, and you have to be able to utilize the resulting character well in a team to succeed. The point of Guild Wars in PvE is to enjoy the story and progress through the challenges offered by your quests and missions, which are relatively varied compared to the "Kill this, bring me three roots, and talk to him over there, and I'll give you a new helmet" stuff seen so often in WoW. When the game's over, it's over. If you want, you can grind away at some very difficult endgame areas for materials for prestige gear, but that gear isn't any better than the stuff you can earn with relative ease, it just has a unique appearance to acknowledge your accomplishments.
Like WoW, Guild Wars has pvp offerings, though most are arena style. Typical 1v1 with 3 hero NPC's each, 4v4 random teams, 4v4 planned teams(in survival, kill count, and protect the priest flavors), and 8v8 Kill the King style play is available (the last only to guilds), and also 6v6(sometimes v6) arenas wherein the objectives change with each battle. Am I going to tout this as the best thing ever? nope.. Am I going to say it's better than WoW's? Probably. The people here are doing it 'cause they enjoy it (not for that uber loot that they can get if they just spend three more hours a day playing), and are using their ability to design and use an effective character (in the way of gear customization, attributes, and skill choices), and their ability to act in battle (maneuvering, timing skills to the quarter-second, and observing the enemy for the opportunity to disable them or attack). No one setup can just stroll up and get lucky with a few crit nukes to instakill one player after another. No person is guaranteed to win a fight because they wasted months of their life grinding instances for some gear.
I'm not sure where you heard Guild Wars was cookie cutter, but it's got 9 classes, each with around a hundred skills available to them. Add that to the fact that you're choosing 8 at any given time from the skills of both your primary and secondary class, and I call that customization. Add THAT to the fact that you can change your attributes and skills around whenver you're in town, and later on your subclass as well, and I call that innovative. Sure you've got a skillbar orf 8 skills, but unlike WoW, where a healing priest has (optimally) the same gear as the next healer priest and the same points invested into one of three talent trees, (Now who was calling cookie cutter again?) two healers in Guild Wars may not use a single skill alike, Hell, they may not even be the same class, and they can be just as effective. Some healers will even heal strictly by reversing and blocking damage done to a player.... That's not cookie cutter, that's well-thought-out strategy. On top of that, the 6-10 or so attributes you use to customize how well your character uses certain types of skills is simple and straightforward.
Want to use Healing spells to heal? Healing Prayers might be a good attribute to max out.. Granted, you could always just go with Divine Favor and protection prayers attributes to heal and buff at the same time.. Choosing where and when to fire off your 1/4 second 3s recharge shield to counter a particular attack and outdo a standard healer in the process takes a little more skill than dropping a fort buff on your crew every 5 minutes. When the 'healing class' can tank or nuke, the Fighters will use magic to compliment their fighting skills, and the archers can depend solely on necromancy for damage and healing while directing their pet to help them out, all in combat that is far faster paced than WoW or LII, "cookie cutter" just doesn't seem to fit.
And I dunno who's lying to the addicted swarm, but comparing WoW and GW's graphics isn't a matter of "wow has superior artistic style" or "GW's graphics suck". WoW's graphics aren't bad, but they aren't great either. Guild Wars isn't the best, but it's certainly a long sight better than what WoW offers. I'll take the well textured decently modeled world over the chunky, lazily textured WoW world any day.
so, in summary.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WoW GW L2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GRIND: endgame, affects balance Optional, no effect on balance Mandatory.
Customization: Few effective builds Tons of effective class setups A skill tree? maybe?
for each class
Dependent on Nope, not really. No fee, Just a bajillion
Carrot/addiction : Always and equipment is equal. XP to level 67!
In the end , WoW is far closer to being a Lineage II clone than Guld Wars.
Am I saying one is better for me, you, or the other guy? Nope. I'm just pointing out how utterly misinformed some morons are.
Next time just spare the objective folks the trouble and keep your damn mouth shut.
By the way: I never see a warrior stand still and attack in GW... and congratulations on summoning one measly tank. GW necroes can summon eight... and a bigger tank, and three ranged beasts at the same time. or whatever other mix they feel like.
thank you for saying everyting i wanted to say...but better. and guild wars is not the only game i support.
////////////
function()
{
runescape != goodgame;
}
First off, I'm not really playing much of anything right now, so don't think I'm out to talk about how great my current addiction is. I haven't touched Guild Wars in weeks, and probably won't for a good while still.
Normally I just ignore blatant uninformed idiocy. Normally, I don't even post on these forums. Normally, I understand and accept that fanboyism, like addiction, is a brain disease and all that. Normally, I just leave that crowd to their drool and crayons... But today isn't a normal day, and something smells like bullsh*t, seasoned with idiocy, and topped off with a huge helping of Fanboi Flakes.
I've played Lineage II. I've played Guild Wars. I've played a good deal of WoW, I've watched, and played in, those "wonderfully tactically diverse" grind- er.. Raids.
Lineage II has a twofold purpose:
1: Grind. You spend hours, days, weeks killing monsters in an environment largely like any other korean MMO. You have a class, that class has skills, you use them and stuff dies. You get experience, you heal up, rinse, and repeat. Extends to trying to get equipment drops.
2: PvP. From the sound of it, hardcore Guild vs Guild pvp is the flavor of choice in Lineage. I'll admit I haven't participated in this part of the game, but based on the system, it's pretty standard fare, swap real people for monsters, add in an objective to capture.
Your skills are determined by your class, they're relatively linear, and there isn't much in the way of customization of builds aside from which skills the player wants to use.
As such, it's a fine example of "A slightly improved korean rpg with limited class and skill selection", as you put it.
WoW has a different sort of progression from Lineage... oh, wait.
1: Getting to the level cap. This part is relatively entertaining and well paced. You've got quests to offer some kind of storyline, the occasional short grind, and even some smaller group raids. You level up at a speed that is appropriate for casual play, and you have the rest system charging up a double xp period while in town or logged out.
2: At the level cap. This part is relatively... boring. You get yourself a nice raiding guild, you meet and waste hours of your life several times a week (varies with activity of guild) doing raids. But wait! raids have monsters that are hard! and they take skill!! Bull. The group progresses through the dungeon/area, and stops when told to. characters pull monsters when told to, then the fighting gets "good". (By "good", I refer to that amazing dynamic new battle system that Blizzard clearly invented wherein.. get this: healers heal! Tanks tank! Buffers buff! Debuffers debuff! and DD's DPS! A-Frickin-Mazing. I've seen the light.). Oh, almost missed something. You move around sometimes so that you avoid aggro or get out of the way of an AOE attack. Guess where else I've seen this? oh! I know! FFXI!.... Hell, I think I saw it somewhere else too.... Oh! EverQuest! Where else have I seen combat with such depth and complexity? Right, Lineage II! Yup, this stuff was original.. back in 1997. On top of that, you've got guild mechanics to deal with. You'll be doing the same damn raids over and over and over just to have a chance at that epic gear (read: Carrot in front of the nose), because you either have to get lucky with the draws, or earn the DKP for it. Sounds like a boring, repetitive grind to me.
Now I won't lie, there are other things to do in WoW.. You can PvP, for example. Whoo. I go to contested or enemy territory, I kill the players, half the time when they're just trying to do quests or level up. Don't even throw town raiding onto the table. "Whoo hoo! I killed every NPC in town! Now they'll... just....respawn." Oh, and you can get some honor points for (insert carrot here)... More grinding.
Alternatively, there is the arena. Enter, fight against another team, other individuals, whatever. Win or lose. Get your points, repeat till you have the points to get the newest carrot-on-a-stick armor Blizzard's made for you.
Lastly, you can craft. This is a pretty blatant grind. Get materials, click an item name, click "make". Succeed or fail. Rinse, repeat hundreds of times. This one is approaching pointless from the start, as eventually anything you can make is outpaced by the raid and pvp loot anyway.
And don't let me forget the amazing character customization! For each race you have... a few general looks and hairstyles. I'm celebrating already.
Guild Wars was actually story driven. You never had to grind if you didn't want to. You could pretty much do quests and consistently be at an appropriate level for whatever you would be coming up against next. Typically, you reach the level cap WELL before the end of any campaign, but that's probably why most everything you encounter in the larger part of every campaign is endgame-level. See, Guild Wars actually did something novel in that you have to be able to understand how classes and subclasses, character attributes, and skills work together in order to be at all effective, and you have to be able to utilize the resulting character well in a team to succeed. The point of Guild Wars in PvE is to enjoy the story and progress through the challenges offered by your quests and missions, which are relatively varied compared to the "Kill this, bring me three roots, and talk to him over there, and I'll give you a new helmet" stuff seen so often in WoW. When the game's over, it's over. If you want, you can grind away at some very difficult endgame areas for materials for prestige gear, but that gear isn't any better than the stuff you can earn with relative ease, it just has a unique appearance to acknowledge your accomplishments.
Like WoW, Guild Wars has pvp offerings, though most are arena style. Typical 1v1 with 3 hero NPC's each, 4v4 random teams, 4v4 planned teams(in survival, kill count, and protect the priest flavors), and 8v8 Kill the King style play is available (the last only to guilds), and also 6v6(sometimes v6) arenas wherein the objectives change with each battle. Am I going to tout this as the best thing ever? nope.. Am I going to say it's better than WoW's? Probably. The people here are doing it 'cause they enjoy it (not for that uber loot that they can get if they just spend three more hours a day playing), and are using their ability to design and use an effective character (in the way of gear customization, attributes, and skill choices), and their ability to act in battle (maneuvering, timing skills to the quarter-second, and observing the enemy for the opportunity to disable them or attack). No one setup can just stroll up and get lucky with a few crit nukes to instakill one player after another. No person is guaranteed to win a fight because they wasted months of their life grinding instances for some gear.
I'm not sure where you heard Guild Wars was cookie cutter, but it's got 9 classes, each with around a hundred skills available to them. Add that to the fact that you're choosing 8 at any given time from the skills of both your primary and secondary class, and I call that customization. Add THAT to the fact that you can change your attributes and skills around whenver you're in town, and later on your subclass as well, and I call that innovative. Sure you've got a skillbar orf 8 skills, but unlike WoW, where a healing priest has (optimally) the same gear as the next healer priest and the same points invested into one of three talent trees, (Now who was calling cookie cutter again?) two healers in Guild Wars may not use a single skill alike, Hell, they may not even be the same class, and they can be just as effective. Some healers will even heal strictly by reversing and blocking damage done to a player.... That's not cookie cutter, that's well-thought-out strategy. On top of that, the 6-10 or so attributes you use to customize how well your character uses certain types of skills is simple and straightforward.
Want to use Healing spells to heal? Healing Prayers might be a good attribute to max out.. Granted, you could always just go with Divine Favor and protection prayers attributes to heal and buff at the same time.. Choosing where and when to fire off your 1/4 second 3s recharge shield to counter a particular attack and outdo a standard healer in the process takes a little more skill than dropping a fort buff on your crew every 5 minutes. When the 'healing class' can tank or nuke, the Fighters will use magic to compliment their fighting skills, and the archers can depend solely on necromancy for damage and healing while directing their pet to help them out, all in combat that is far faster paced than WoW or LII, "cookie cutter" just doesn't seem to fit.
And I dunno who's lying to the addicted swarm, but comparing WoW and GW's graphics isn't a matter of "wow has superior artistic style" or "GW's graphics suck". WoW's graphics aren't bad, but they aren't great either. Guild Wars isn't the best, but it's certainly a long sight better than what WoW offers. I'll take the well textured decently modeled world over the chunky, lazily textured WoW world any day.
so, in summary.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WoW GW L2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GRIND: endgame, affects balance Optional, no effect on balance Mandatory.
Customization: Few effective builds Tons of effective class setups A skill tree? maybe?
for each class
Dependent on Nope, not really. No fee, Just a bajillion
Carrot/addiction : Always and equipment is equal. XP to level 67!
In the end , WoW is far closer to being a Lineage II clone than Guld Wars.
Am I saying one is better for me, you, or the other guy? Nope. I'm just pointing out how utterly misinformed some morons are.
Next time just spare the objective folks the trouble and keep your damn mouth shut.
By the way: I never see a warrior stand still and attack in GW... and congratulations on summoning one measly tank. GW necroes can summon eight... and a bigger tank, and three ranged beasts at the same time. or whatever other mix they feel like.
Kirin, can i hug you? Please?
In all seriousnes kids, this is one of the best, most thought out post i've really quite seen on these forums in a whiles. It was well written, all points had valid support to them and it was all done in a non-demeaning manner, while being simple to read for the fanbois of the pack. In all honesty i'm jealous i dont have the attention span to write something so concise unless i've been up for 36hours + and have a beer in my hand.
Congratulations on a wonderful, well thought out post.
Cheers!
"And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."
I like your point. WoW opened up the market to new MMORPG makers, while also leaving gamers with higher expectations for new MMORPGs.
I hope future MMORPG developers decide to meet those expectations. For the better!
8 million subscriber can't lie.
Seriously, do any of you have another argument?