Actually Blizzards model is far simpler than most people think. The funny thing is the elitists dont get it at all. But then again they never have gotten much.
WoW's model is solely the following. Copy EQ1 but make it so that every ~5 levels you have roughly 2-3 instances that you only need repeat about 5 times each and about 20-50 quests and push all the grindy part to the level 60 raid game. And then they just cleaned up some design inconsistentcy such as the trying-to-be-two-contradictory-things-at-once travel design and made a much nicer interface with better art direction. Why does this work? Because the whole frigging game is just plain repetitive, so you need to change scenary often. Once you are in your 20s to 30s you really don't do anything substantively different for the rest of the game. So in order to make it appear less grindy they change scenary often and make obvious repition of exactly the same thing (ala camping) unnecessary
That is their pacing. Their success is a validation of that pacing. As with books pacing is a personal things one person's interesting book is another person's tedious slog. WoW paced it for what a fairly large portion of people like. The elitists do not understand such a thing, because well most of them are narrow minded fools. That is why they are elitists to begin with.
It is also very easy to tell just how important this pacing is, because when they deviated from it they got large amounts of disatisfaction and aversion (ie. the end game that so many dislike, going so far as to actually start all over just to avoid it). The end game is a left over from the EQ1 mentality of uberness. Rob Pardo says as much in his AGC talk, that is for the "hardcores". Of coruse that issue is a mixed bag, see Inequity Aversion, but part of the issue was the change in pacing and the lack of any change in scenary.
That link I just posted is one of the many reason you see knee-jerk irrational hatred of both WoW and EQ. The raid games cause the monkies to throw cucumbers at the scientists (ie. the devs and the game itself by proxy). Other reasons people hate it are strains of elitism etc. but the elitism does have at least some foundation. WoW is both extremely derivative of EQ and compared to many MMOs not really all that in depth. Just look at a game like CoX, just to pick one out of the air, compare Mages to Blasters. There are 10 or perhaps even 100 times as many ways to make and play Balsters as there are Mages in WoW. Nor does it generate a plethora of intersting choices via interesting limits such as games like Guild Wars or Eve. The best you have is Talents sine all its classes merely throw the kitchen sink at you and you mostly have everything but mid level anyway. But the talent choices rarely boil down to more than about 5 main builds and really offer very little in the way true customization, at least compared to games that truly offer cusomtization. Two different Guild Wars monk healing builds can literally heal in completely different ways. This simply cannot happen in WoW, a preist always has flash heal, the only question is whether or not its 15% better than the basic flash heal. I could make similar comparison with Eve and ship load outs/skill training. If we go back to CoX you see the tank and spank tactic being successful, but you also see many other tactics being successful too, you do not need tanks, you do not need healers, you can be perfectly successful with a team full of buffers/debuffers/nukers. Yet WoW is completely married to tank,spank, and heal; a completely moronic paradigm based around forcing things to act stupidly while shoveling nothing but the most rudmentary form of survivability at one person.
The point is that in many ways WoW really is more shallow than many games out there and simply copied a tired old paradigm to be that way.. Should this cause hatred? No. But there is something behind those claims at least. Its kind of stupid, because this is a game so if you are having fun then that is fine. Anyone who is trying to say all activities one does must be rocket science to be worhy is being silly.
However I can tell that I personally, have little respect for WoW. I repsect their insight into the pacing, that is a master stroke. I repsect their artists and art direction. They do an ok job of keeping classes reasonably balanced. The rest I must say I tend to lean into the realm of actual disrespect, its just derivative copying of failed BS mechanics like taunt without even an attempt at anything actually interesting. Flying mounts? Whoopy CoX has had fly for how long? In the end its just another Holy Trinity game with very little customization. You could say that is overly simplstic or that it glosses over all the good parts of WoW, but since that is what easily 80% of WoW boils down to it is certainly valid. A bunch of close-enough-for-government-work clones that nicely fit into their DPS or Healer or Tank roles gathered together to fight opponenets that have been made to purposely act stupid. A Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging to steal a title from Peter Gabriel. And so I have no respect for rest of the game.
Sadly for many people disrespect = hatred. I do not hate WoW, but I do consider it sub-par in its RPG elements and its world-usage. For me the excellent pacing and art direction do not make up for that. For others it does. And for still others they love games that have taunts and aggro and mobs with Artificial Stupidity programmed in and hate it when games like Guild Wars make mobs act less stupid.
I really enjoyed your post.
As for 'hating' the game. For a long time I simply disliked the game. When I realized what it does to some people, either by making them ignorant, or taking away their free time - I realized that Blizzard has commited horrible acts upon human beings. Like I would a casino owner or drug dealer, I hate blizzard and their game for the sick things it has done to otherwise healthy people. I am not naturally inclined to 'hate' a video game, but make myself do so because it is the only way you can address something that hurts people consciously.
Kirin, can i hug you? Please? In all seriousnes kids, this is one of the best, most thought out post i've really quite seen on these forums in a whiles. It was well written, all points had valid support to them and it was all done in a non-demeaning manner, while being simple to read for the fanbois of the pack. In all honesty i'm jealous i dont have the attention span to write something so concise unless i've been up for 36hours + and have a beer in my hand. Congratulations on a wonderful, well thought out post. Cheers!
I agree with both of you! The points you make are good, and obviously come from your experience playing the game, rather than from anger or delusion.
This kaialphas character keeps posting flaming, inadequate crap that really does nothing but frustrate, rather than helping us understand WoW and it's relation to other MMORPGs./
OK...haven't read half of this topic, but on the whole "WoW has 8 million subscribers!" thing:
8 million? So what? Go look at the population of some East Asian MMORPGs. Quite a few have had over 10 million players for years now, Yulgang had what? 50 million by itself?
8 million accounts is not worth bragging about. when you think about it.
you have 25% of them as single players
50% are bots or gold farmers for the powerleveling/gold sites
the rest are either bots. or other accounts that are not really legit.
now lets try to not agrue symantics but atleast 90% of wow's population are new mmo'ers that meaning they have never played any asian mmos or non-mainstream games. so to them wow is the godlessly god game of all game, where as other people who have played more then 1 game. will review wow with a more detailed view. they will dig at its core and review the whole game not just how great graphids maybe or such.
the main issue i have with wow is not if its a good or bad game but how the players sit and bash any game coming out or that came out before wow that is not made by blizzard as garbage.
they seem to think any game pre or post wow that has human/ elven/ ork(orc)/ dwarf are all clones of wow or some other junk. which saddly is not the case.
there is no such thing as a non-clone game. all fantasy games wow/ L1/2/ EQ/War ect. are all based off the lord of the rings books. and other such works of fiction or art from history.
as for MMO's they are all cloned from UO who started all the MMO games. before that it was word mmos such as (you see a door what do you do? ) then you type: open the door.. ect... which are the first RPG games. before that mmorpg was a pen and paper only game.
so there is no such thing as the best game or worst game there are just diffrent systems or styles that may or may not meet your desire for a game.
as for wow. i dont mind it. i just hate the ego players who bash everything that ist wow.
NEWS FLASH wow was not the first game ever made and it wont be the last. its popularity will die soon. so i jump from diffrent games. while you play only wow. i will experiance diffrent games and customs you cant find in wow. stuff like building a house/guild fort. or being made king of some game world map ect.
Why does everyone hate vanguard....why does everyone hate star wars galaxies.....allthough the last i can understand till a small extend.These forums are filled with people who are overbored and need to bowsomesteem off.So you have a lot of trashtalking....flaming and other things.It is sad but you will find that mostly if the negative threads on a certain game strat to pile upit will get loads and loads of bad replies.For me i don't hate wow......but it is far from what i like in an mmorpg.
Why does everyone hate vanguard....why does everyone hate star wars galaxies.....allthough the last i can understand till a small extend.These forums are filled with people who are overbored and need to bowsomesteem off.So you have a lot of trashtalking....flaming and other things.It is sad but you will find that mostly if the negative threads on a certain game strat to pile upit will get loads and loads of bad replies.For me i don't hate wow......but it is far from what i like in an mmorpg.
How many ex-shadowbane players hate shadowbane? Not a whole lot, actually. I think the problem is that we come from the Age of shitty MMOs.
Also, a lot of players from the old-style SWG really enjoyed the game.
Why does everyone hate vanguard....why does everyone hate star wars galaxies.....allthough the last i can understand till a small extend.These forums are filled with people who are overbored and need to bowsomesteem off.So you have a lot of trashtalking....flaming and other things.It is sad but you will find that mostly if the negative threads on a certain game strat to pile upit will get loads and loads of bad replies.For me i don't hate wow......but it is far from what i like in an mmorpg.
How many ex-shadowbane players hate shadowbane? Not a whole lot, actually. I think the problem is that we come from the Age of shitty MMOs.
Also, a lot of players from the old-style SWG really enjoyed the game.
You are right about that.It is not every mmorpg that suffers from this.Iaman ex shadowbane player myself...well ex-anything allmost in mmorpg terms.Eve online or COH etc also don't suffer from this kind of anti-threads.But it is a fact that mostly when the negative threads start to appear a few in a row the pile just keeps getting bigger and bigger.Mostly the same type of games suffer from this.And i think wow is one of those.Wow..EQ2..SWG...AC2...all in the same genre of mmropg's if you ask me.The more "pure" pvp games seem to not suffer from this.Again SWG i can understand since SOE rlly fckd up there.Allthough on the other hand it has been over a year since the NGE release and still the htreads go on and on about the same thing.
Complaint's usually arise from feeling 'cheated by a game'. I had fun in SWG but quit since my old computer couldn't handle it.
I understand that what SOE did with SWG could create alot of anger. I wish they just would have given people the choice of playing on the old servers or migrating to the new game.
I hate WoW, for many reasons, but one good example of one is when i had been hacked, lost all of my gear, and was at level 58. WoW Customer support told me to 'Solve my own problems'.
Both your accounts were hacked by your own hand. Blizzard had ZERO to do with it. You either gave your "friend" your account to play who in turn screwed you, you used a "service" to help you out or you installed a 3rd party mod that Blizzard has NO control over or responsibility for. The vast majority of hacked accounts are from key loggers. Blizzard can't protect you from them. You have to protect yourself. Your account info was not hacked from THEIR servers. It was hacked from YOUR computer. Blizzard doesn't own your PC. SOrry, but this tired argument about how Blizzard owes you when you screwed up is sad and reeks of liberal whining.
It sucks that it happens, but it does. Blizzard is not responsible. When you rear end someone in your car, because you were talking on the phone and not paying attention, do you blame Ford or Verizon? I bet some of you would try.
its terrible. its a 2-3 shot frenzy game, feels more like a first person shooter with how easy it is to kill people in pvp. to top that off, crits way so high, theres chance for this, chance for that, so many procs that can change the course of a fight.
all those procs and chance to crit and everything with being able to 2 shot and 3 shot people in pvp make it more of a luck based combat system.
pretty much, wow is a great pve game. but its terrible for pvp, and most people who are die hard pvpers consider this a noobs intro to pvp simply cause after all the procs that exist and dice rolled combat system, thats pretty much what it is. and if you tell me any different your niave. i put my 9 year old nephew on my level 60 pre xpac and watch him beat faces in just cause he gets some crits here and procs there. sure he's not really all that good, but he can get the job done.
after all the procs and crits and dice rolls. there crowd control, you can fear people for 15 secands, keep em stunned for 10. do you have any idea how damage i can do on a geared out warrior in that time, or my epic'd out warlock?
so not only do you have ridiculous crits, procs and dice rolls, but you can completely immobilize a player character for entire fight that last a whole 20 secands.
pve its great. fantastic. my only problem is the actual looting system, it kinda sucks when you want an item, you have to farm an instance on end just for a drop, then when it finally drops you have to out roll however many people also want the item.
Originally posted by Josher Both your accounts were hacked by your own hand. Blizzard had ZERO to do with it. You either gave your "friend" your account to play who in turn screwed you, you used a "service" to help you out or you installed a 3rd party mod that Blizzard has NO control over or responsibility for. The vast majority of hacked accounts are from key loggers. Blizzard can't protect you from them. You have to protect yourself. Your account info was not hacked from THEIR servers. It was hacked from YOUR computer. Blizzard doesn't own your PC. SOrry, but this tired argument about how Blizzard owes you when you screwed up is sad and reeks of liberal whining. It sucks that it happens, but it does. Blizzard is not responsible. When you rear end someone in your car, because you were talking on the phone and not paying attention, do you blame Ford or Verizon? I bet some of you would try.
QFT. The situations detailed above happen countless times every day in the US, and are the reason for 90% of America's problems today. People need to just stop blaming other people for their own stupidity.
so what your saying is(going to give an example here) im playing WoW. ive never given out my information to anyone before because i know the dangers. and some super pro hacker kid comes and hacks my account. the next day i come to discover all of my items are gone.
thats some how my fault. i hacked myself? this was done by my own hand. what you just did was made a broad generalization and assumed that everyone is the same way. and has either given out their information or has done something else to compromise their accounts.
dont "assume".(got that from one of my old teachers).
I have seen so many people who seem to hate the game - I'll list them:
"Ex Players"
There are those who played WoW and felt let down, they feel like they threw there money out of the window. They feel like Blizzard deceived them.
"They tricked me into playing that crappy game."
"Anti Fanboys"
There are those who probably wouldn't care about WoW - if there weren't thousands of stupid ignorant WoW fanboys who act like Blizzard invented MMORPGs and any other game was just a clone - or simply bash every game that isn't WoW. Anti Fanboys may look like they hate WoW, but they actually just hate those fanboys.
"I just can't hear it anymore. They didn't copy it from WoW. How could you copy something from a game that didn't have anything original in the first place"
"Trolls"
They just bash WoW to start a flame war.
"OMG WOW SUCKZORZ SO MUCH !!!!1111"
"Fanboys"
They love their game and hate all other games including WoW.
"... is so much better than WoW."
"Annoyed Grumpy People"
You get on their nerves by talking about WoW. You get flamed.
"Just shut the f**** up."
These groups exist for other games aswell but there is one special group for WoW:
"Avengers"
The game they play or played lost a great number of people when wow started. Maybe it got canceled or lacks players now. Might be they just think WoW is hurting the genre in some way. Maybe they are jealous because the game they see as superior to WoW is not that succesful. The Avengers are on their personal crusade against WoW. They do anything to hurt the reputation of the game.
"I can't believe how such a crappy game can be more succesful than ..."
Feel free to add more
Horusgirl, I think you forgot one very important group,
"Old SWG players", veterans of bug hunting since Episode Beta 3 ( I still remember the time before vehicles and mounts). Whining why devs did this and that and why can't there be pre CU, NGE servers anymore!!!! but that was different time, time before the dark times, times before World of Warcraft which caused the Devs to turn in to the dark side of the mmorpg. It's faster and more cunning, but not more powerful.
I have been playing SWG since beta 3 on Eclipse, me and my mates were probably one of the first from our country and I still play it, not very often but I do, partly because it's still Star Wars to me. But it's not WoWs fault. I don't hate WoW, I despise people who hype, they go on and on and on and on with they mouths foaming about this being the best thing since Jesus Christ and most of them who makes the loudest noise will abandon Wow as soon there is another similar and over-hyped game. This problem with hype is on every sub-culture, especially in music and in metal music, my sky is darker than thine attitude, everyone from scandinavia should know what I'm talking about
I hate it because there is no War in it. Its end game is based soly on item grinding.
Too bad people skip all the interesting content that happens before the "endgame." If everyone would stop focusing on hitting max level and let themselves experience the WHOLE game, I bet a lot of people would enjoy a lot of games a lot more.
I hate it because there is no War in it. Its end game is based soly on item grinding.
Too bad people skip all the interesting content that happens before the "endgame." If everyone would stop focusing on hitting max level and let themselves experience the WHOLE game, I bet a lot of people would enjoy a lot of games a lot more. Yes since the actual GAME is from start to max level. End game is just a smart way of keeping a relatively small amount of content repetetive friendly and addictive.
You are right comrad.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Comments
WoW's model is solely the following. Copy EQ1 but make it so that every ~5 levels you have roughly 2-3 instances that you only need repeat about 5 times each and about 20-50 quests and push all the grindy part to the level 60 raid game. And then they just cleaned up some design inconsistentcy such as the trying-to-be-two-contradictory-things-at-once travel design and made a much nicer interface with better art direction. Why does this work? Because the whole frigging game is just plain repetitive, so you need to change scenary often. Once you are in your 20s to 30s you really don't do anything substantively different for the rest of the game. So in order to make it appear less grindy they change scenary often and make obvious repition of exactly the same thing (ala camping) unnecessary
That is their pacing. Their success is a validation of that pacing. As with books pacing is a personal things one person's interesting book is another person's tedious slog. WoW paced it for what a fairly large portion of people like. The elitists do not understand such a thing, because well most of them are narrow minded fools. That is why they are elitists to begin with.
It is also very easy to tell just how important this pacing is, because when they deviated from it they got large amounts of disatisfaction and aversion (ie. the end game that so many dislike, going so far as to actually start all over just to avoid it). The end game is a left over from the EQ1 mentality of uberness. Rob Pardo says as much in his AGC talk, that is for the "hardcores". Of coruse that issue is a mixed bag, see Inequity Aversion, but part of the issue was the change in pacing and the lack of any change in scenary.
That link I just posted is one of the many reason you see knee-jerk irrational hatred of both WoW and EQ. The raid games cause the monkies to throw cucumbers at the scientists (ie. the devs and the game itself by proxy). Other reasons people hate it are strains of elitism etc. but the elitism does have at least some foundation. WoW is both extremely derivative of EQ and compared to many MMOs not really all that in depth. Just look at a game like CoX, just to pick one out of the air, compare Mages to Blasters. There are 10 or perhaps even 100 times as many ways to make and play Balsters as there are Mages in WoW. Nor does it generate a plethora of intersting choices via interesting limits such as games like Guild Wars or Eve. The best you have is Talents sine all its classes merely throw the kitchen sink at you and you mostly have everything but mid level anyway. But the talent choices rarely boil down to more than about 5 main builds and really offer very little in the way true customization, at least compared to games that truly offer cusomtization. Two different Guild Wars monk healing builds can literally heal in completely different ways. This simply cannot happen in WoW, a preist always has flash heal, the only question is whether or not its 15% better than the basic flash heal. I could make similar comparison with Eve and ship load outs/skill training. If we go back to CoX you see the tank and spank tactic being successful, but you also see many other tactics being successful too, you do not need tanks, you do not need healers, you can be perfectly successful with a team full of buffers/debuffers/nukers. Yet WoW is completely married to tank,spank, and heal; a completely moronic paradigm based around forcing things to act stupidly while shoveling nothing but the most rudmentary form of survivability at one person.
The point is that in many ways WoW really is more shallow than many games out there and simply copied a tired old paradigm to be that way.. Should this cause hatred? No. But there is something behind those claims at least. Its kind of stupid, because this is a game so if you are having fun then that is fine. Anyone who is trying to say all activities one does must be rocket science to be worhy is being silly.
However I can tell that I personally, have little respect for WoW. I repsect their insight into the pacing, that is a master stroke. I repsect their artists and art direction. They do an ok job of keeping classes reasonably balanced. The rest I must say I tend to lean into the realm of actual disrespect, its just derivative copying of failed BS mechanics like taunt without even an attempt at anything actually interesting. Flying mounts? Whoopy CoX has had fly for how long? In the end its just another Holy Trinity game with very little customization. You could say that is overly simplstic or that it glosses over all the good parts of WoW, but since that is what easily 80% of WoW boils down to it is certainly valid. A bunch of close-enough-for-government-work clones that nicely fit into their DPS or Healer or Tank roles gathered together to fight opponenets that have been made to purposely act stupid. A Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging to steal a title from Peter Gabriel. And so I have no respect for rest of the game.
Sadly for many people disrespect = hatred. I do not hate WoW, but I do consider it sub-par in its RPG elements and its world-usage. For me the excellent pacing and art direction do not make up for that. For others it does. And for still others they love games that have taunts and aggro and mobs with Artificial Stupidity programmed in and hate it when games like Guild Wars make mobs act less stupid.
I really enjoyed your post.
As for 'hating' the game. For a long time I simply disliked the game. When I realized what it does to some people, either by making them ignorant, or taking away their free time - I realized that Blizzard has commited horrible acts upon human beings. Like I would a casino owner or drug dealer, I hate blizzard and their game for the sick things it has done to otherwise healthy people. I am not naturally inclined to 'hate' a video game, but make myself do so because it is the only way you can address something that hurts people consciously.
I agree with both of you! The points you make are good, and obviously come from your experience playing the game, rather than from anger or delusion.
This kaialphas character keeps posting flaming, inadequate crap that really does nothing but frustrate, rather than helping us understand WoW and it's relation to other MMORPGs./
8 million? So what? Go look at the population of some East Asian MMORPGs. Quite a few have had over 10 million players for years now, Yulgang had what? 50 million by itself?
8 million accounts is not worth bragging about. when you think about it.
you have 25% of them as single players
50% are bots or gold farmers for the powerleveling/gold sites
the rest are either bots. or other accounts that are not really legit.
now lets try to not agrue symantics but atleast 90% of wow's population are new mmo'ers that meaning they have never played any asian mmos or non-mainstream games. so to them wow is the godlessly god game of all game, where as other people who have played more then 1 game. will review wow with a more detailed view. they will dig at its core and review the whole game not just how great graphids maybe or such.
the main issue i have with wow is not if its a good or bad game but how the players sit and bash any game coming out or that came out before wow that is not made by blizzard as garbage.
they seem to think any game pre or post wow that has human/ elven/ ork(orc)/ dwarf are all clones of wow or some other junk. which saddly is not the case.
there is no such thing as a non-clone game. all fantasy games wow/ L1/2/ EQ/War ect. are all based off the lord of the rings books. and other such works of fiction or art from history.
as for MMO's they are all cloned from UO who started all the MMO games. before that it was word mmos such as (you see a door what do you do? ) then you type: open the door.. ect... which are the first RPG games. before that mmorpg was a pen and paper only game.
so there is no such thing as the best game or worst game there are just diffrent systems or styles that may or may not meet your desire for a game.
as for wow. i dont mind it. i just hate the ego players who bash everything that ist wow.
NEWS FLASH wow was not the first game ever made and it wont be the last. its popularity will die soon. so i jump from diffrent games. while you play only wow. i will experiance diffrent games and customs you cant find in wow. stuff like building a house/guild fort. or being made king of some game world map ect.
How many ex-shadowbane players hate shadowbane? Not a whole lot, actually. I think the problem is that we come from the Age of shitty MMOs.
Also, a lot of players from the old-style SWG really enjoyed the game.
Of course after all you John The Baptist II predicted it. Why ever would we doubt your credibility.
Everyone hates WoW because Kaiaphas plays it. Nuff said.
How many ex-shadowbane players hate shadowbane? Not a whole lot, actually. I think the problem is that we come from the Age of shitty MMOs.
Also, a lot of players from the old-style SWG really enjoyed the game.
You are right about that.It is not every mmorpg that suffers from this.Iaman ex shadowbane player myself...well ex-anything allmost in mmorpg terms.Eve online or COH etc also don't suffer from this kind of anti-threads.But it is a fact that mostly when the negative threads start to appear a few in a row the pile just keeps getting bigger and bigger.Mostly the same type of games suffer from this.And i think wow is one of those.Wow..EQ2..SWG...AC2...all in the same genre of mmropg's if you ask me.The more "pure" pvp games seem to not suffer from this.Again SWG i can understand since SOE rlly fckd up there.Allthough on the other hand it has been over a year since the NGE release and still the htreads go on and on about the same thing.
Complaint's usually arise from feeling 'cheated by a game'. I had fun in SWG but quit since my old computer couldn't handle it.
I understand that what SOE did with SWG could create alot of anger. I wish they just would have given people the choice of playing on the old servers or migrating to the new game.
It sucks that it happens, but it does. Blizzard is not responsible. When you rear end someone in your car, because you were talking on the phone and not paying attention, do you blame Ford or Verizon? I bet some of you would try.
few reasons.
pvp.
its terrible. its a 2-3 shot frenzy game, feels more like a first person shooter with how easy it is to kill people in pvp. to top that off, crits way so high, theres chance for this, chance for that, so many procs that can change the course of a fight.
all those procs and chance to crit and everything with being able to 2 shot and 3 shot people in pvp make it more of a luck based combat system.
pretty much, wow is a great pve game. but its terrible for pvp, and most people who are die hard pvpers consider this a noobs intro to pvp simply cause after all the procs that exist and dice rolled combat system, thats pretty much what it is. and if you tell me any different your niave. i put my 9 year old nephew on my level 60 pre xpac and watch him beat faces in just cause he gets some crits here and procs there. sure he's not really all that good, but he can get the job done.
after all the procs and crits and dice rolls. there crowd control, you can fear people for 15 secands, keep em stunned for 10. do you have any idea how damage i can do on a geared out warrior in that time, or my epic'd out warlock?
so not only do you have ridiculous crits, procs and dice rolls, but you can completely immobilize a player character for entire fight that last a whole 20 secands.
pve its great. fantastic. my only problem is the actual looting system, it kinda sucks when you want an item, you have to farm an instance on end just for a drop, then when it finally drops you have to out roll however many people also want the item.
besides all that, great game.
QFT. The situations detailed above happen countless times every day in the US, and are the reason for 90% of America's problems today. People need to just stop blaming other people for their own stupidity.
so what your saying is(going to give an example here) im playing WoW. ive never given out my information to anyone before because i know the dangers. and some super pro hacker kid comes and hacks my account. the next day i come to discover all of my items are gone.
thats some how my fault. i hacked myself? this was done by my own hand. what you just did was made a broad generalization and assumed that everyone is the same way. and has either given out their information or has done something else to compromise their accounts.
dont "assume".(got that from one of my old teachers).
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function()
{
runescape != goodgame;
}
searching for the next DAoC....
Kay-exile
I love WoW!
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acc 1 - Hunter HW / War60 / Druid60 / Lock60 - SOLD!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez0kM_5tXOg&mode=user&search=
acc 2 - Pally68 - SOLD!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMEtX827v_o&mode=user&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp43a1msVFg&mode=user&search=
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Horusgirl, I think you forgot one very important group,
"Old SWG players", veterans of bug hunting since Episode Beta 3 ( I still remember the time before vehicles and mounts). Whining why devs did this and that and why can't there be pre CU, NGE servers anymore!!!!
but that was different time, time before the dark times, times before World of Warcraft which caused the Devs to turn in to the dark side of the mmorpg. It's faster and more cunning, but not more powerful. 
I have been playing SWG since beta 3 on Eclipse, me and my mates were probably one of the first from our country and I still play it, not very often but I do, partly because it's still Star Wars to me. But it's not WoWs fault. I don't hate WoW, I despise people who hype, they go on and on and on and on with they mouths foaming about this being the best thing since Jesus Christ and most of them who makes the loudest noise will abandon Wow as soon there is another similar and over-hyped game. This problem with hype is on every sub-culture, especially in music and in metal music, my sky is darker than thine attitude, everyone from scandinavia should know what I'm talking about
Damn I would be playing Wow if it was Star Wars
You are right comrad.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "