Maybe the reason that those other "popular" title's you mentioned aren't known is because they are not easy to play and/or don't run well on any PC. Maybe, just maybe, those are two important (albeit not the only) criteria for a quality game. I believe Blizzard spent over 30 million dollars making WOW..doesn't sound like they cut any corners make some sort of cheap knock off game.
Can you find the actual numbers for their production cost? If that cost 30 million dollars... someone got screwed. WoW is not worth 30 million dollars, not by half. Now... if you are talking about marketing, packaging, shipping, and manufacturing costs for the retail sales post production including all sales to date... I would believe 30 million dollars. But not for producing the game itself. I never said WoW was a knockoff... unless you considering copying your own design a knockoff... I do believe that it did not bring anything new to the table except perhaps 8 million newbies who post "wow rulz" threads EVERYWHERE.
Originally posted by Kyleran
You keep stating that for a game to be good, it has to be innovative and groundbreaking. Truthfully, early adopters usually live on the bleeding edge and are rarely commercial successes. (this is true in movies, gaming and about a million other things).
That's not true at all. There have been very successful games which were fresh, new, and innovative. Same with all sorts of products. Hell, to say that innovation equals failure is rediculous. Seriously, come on now.
Originally posted by Kyleran
Stating that WOW isn't a quality game is just foolish.... it most certainly is. You don't have to like it... I don't play it either, but doesn't mean that it lacks quality.
I beta tested it, played WoW for a bit post beta, and decided that it is a great game for a 12 year old. The graphics aren't all that impressive, the game is way too easy, and there is nothing fresh about it. The only benefit is the novelty factor of playing a truly 3D Warcraft game.
Originally posted by Kyleran
Tell the truth Drenth....you're an old UO, AC or SWG game player who's still bitter that your favorite game hasn't been resurrected or updated or improved on...because they just weren't that popular to begin with.
LMAO - Not really... but I can see where you would think that.
Originally posted by Kyleran
Edit: Darn it...always forget to stay on topic when no one else is...... to the OP..you want danger and excitement and the fear/thrill of dying? Consider joining the Marines...I hear they have some assignments that would provide you all the action you are looking for.
Other than that...better wait for WAR, Darkfall or some other new games to come out soon.
That's not exactly what people have in mind when referring to a game.
And personally, I am waiting for Pirated of the Burning Sea... that looks like fun, and it's new... innovative... and I get to shoot cannons at people while saying "Argh Matey" to myself. Good times all around!
With all of the advances in both hardware and software... how the hell isn't there a game out by now that can be as exciting and innovative as DAoC was when it released?? It's friggin insulting!!
I totally agree when it comes to the fear factor but i would rather say adventure and there is hardly any mmorpg out there with a truly adventure setting. Just look at wow, i liked the game in the beginning and the PvP part "outdoor" before the battlegrounds was really fun and intense even if you didnt have much at stake. Also the grinding part, killing mobs standing at the same place, respawning without any variation, 20th time downing Ragnaros wasnt that fun anymore. No, i dont need any more of those wow clones like lotr, gimme a adventure game packed with adrenaline ;-)
Thankfully, I'm playing a game I believe does have great adventure and danger, DDO.
With effects that can be cast on a player such as Blind (permanent unless you pay or can get someone to remove it for you) helpless, standing there unable to do anything for 60 mins or so, being feared for 3 to 4 mins and loads more effects, the dungeons you explore do warrant a degree of caution and uncertainty as you wander thru them. (Even if you have done them before!)
Facing a beholder for the first time
Oh yeah, did I mention the traps that can kill you before you know they are there....................
You must not leave until you free Arlos and have gathered your party safely in this hallway.
I'm glad some of you agree with me on this. I just wanted to add my reasons for desiring a dangerous environment in a MMO.
1) Respect. You have a greater respect for the game world and the game itself. Knowing you can't tread lightly and carelessly anywhere you want. Which brings me to my next reason....
2) Consquences. The possibility of losing EXP, something valuable, etc. makes you actually care about dieing. These consquences may vary but they need to exist. If they don't then what's the point? Think about it, you spend hundreds, maybe thousands of hours on your character in a game. How long will you even remember that character if you are playing a game with the challenge equivalency of tic tac toe?
3) Bonding. For pete's sake you are playing a massive multiplayer game. A challenging, dangerous world is a good reason to make friends and stick with them. And I mean from early on. Because realistically, the game should be MORE challenging if you're a Level 1 peasant wearing tattered cloth and armed with a splintered club.
I'm glad some of you agree with me on this. I just wanted to add my reasons for desiring a dangerous environment in a MMO. 1) Respect... 2) Consquences... 3) Bonding...
I'm glad some of you agree with me on this. I just wanted to add my reasons for desiring a dangerous environment in a MMO. 1) Respect. You have a greater respect for the game world and the game itself. Knowing you can't tread lightly and carelessly anywhere you want. Which brings me to my next reason.... No where is safe in eve at least not 100% safe. 2) Consquences. The possibility of losing EXP, something valuable, etc. makes you actually care about dieing. These consquences may vary but they need to exist. If they don't then what's the point? Think about it, you spend hundreds, maybe thousands of hours on your character in a game. How long will you even remember that character if you are playing a game with the challenge equivalency of tic tac toe? You can lose months of work in a few seconds in EvE including losing permanently a percentage of skillpoints. 3) Bonding. For pete's sake you are playing a massive multiplayer game. A challenging, dangerous world is a good reason to make friends and stick with them. And I mean from early on. Because realistically, the game should be MORE challenging if you're a Level 1 peasant wearing tattered cloth and armed with a splintered club. The corp system in eve is the centrepiece of palyer intereaction and it helps form real friendship between groups of palyers.
This describes eve perfectly so i guess there is a game out there with a sence of danger. heh i still remember my first real PvP battles and how my heart was pounding for ages because of the genuine risk of losing all my gear permanently.
Fight for your gear and your lives all you like. Just realize you are not the majority. Hardcore PvP has a reason for "Hardcore" in it ^^...
I have played EvE in a lowsec corp and I found sitting there in a corpwar, waiting for some super-battlecruiser mob squad nuking away my hard-earned gear everything... but NOT entertaining. Thats the reason people were playing on trammel, the reason EvE has a ok but not overwhelming number of subs, the reason why gankfests fail - people get frustrated.
Most people don't get the fun out of frustration or fear. I don't need my heart pounding for a videogame. Heck, if my adrenaline goes up in a VIDEOGAME thats actually a reason for me to quit. I have adrenalin all day long, college, job, girlfriend, mountainbiking, whatever. But this is a stupid, dumb-ass videogame; It'd better entertain me and make me feel well, or it can pretty much go to hell ^^ ...
And I don't think, I know that this is the attitude of the vast majority of players...
So quit whining, you got your niche games, be happy.
Fight for your gear and your lives all you like. Just realize you are not the majority. Hardcore PvP has a reason for "Hardcore" in it ^^...
I have played EvE in a lowsec corp and I found sitting there in a corpwar, waiting for some super-battlecruiser mob squad nuking away my hard-earned gear everything... but NOT entertaining. Thats the reason people were playing on trammel, the reason EvE has a ok but not overwhelming number of subs, the reason why gankfests fail - people get frustrated.
Most people don't get the fun out of frustration or fear. I don't need my heart pounding for a videogame. Heck, if my adrenaline goes up in a VIDEOGAME thats actually a reason for me to quit. I have adrenalin all day long, college, job, girlfriend, mountainbiking, whatever. But this is a stupid, dumb-ass videogame; It'd better entertain me and make me feel well, or it can pretty much go to hell ^^ ...
And I don't think, I know that this is the attitude of the vast majority of players...
So quit whining, you got your niche games, be happy.
Meridion
This post proovs EvE has trully harsh and Heart pounding PvP.......I thank you for your support.
Fight for your gear and your lives all you like. Just realize you are not the majority. Hardcore PvP has a reason for "Hardcore" in it ^^...
I won't get into the PvP discussion here, because the sense of danger shouldn't be limited to PvP. There needs to be some level of challenge to a game, or it's just a friggin 3D chat room where you can kill defenseless bunnies.
Originally posted by Meridion
I have played EvE in a lowsec corp and I found sitting there in a corpwar, waiting for some super-battlecruiser mob squad nuking away my hard-earned gear everything... but NOT entertaining. Thats the reason people were playing on trammel, the reason EvE has a ok but not overwhelming number of subs, the reason why gankfests fail - people get frustrated.
Gankfests are not my idea of fun. A game which incorporates a PvP system in an intelligent and well thought out manner would not be a gankfest. Danger doesn't have to mean you lose everything... that's way too intense for the general public's perception of a good time.
Originally posted by Meridion
Most people don't get the fun out of frustration or fear. I don't need my heart pounding for a videogame. Heck, if my adrenaline goes up in a VIDEOGAME thats actually a reason for me to quit. I have adrenalin all day long, college, job, girlfriend, mountainbiking, whatever. But this is a stupid, dumb-ass videogame; It'd better entertain me and make me feel well, or it can pretty much go to hell ^^ ...
And I don't think, I know that this is the attitude of the vast majority of players...
I'm glad you've done market research and can effectively claim you know the attitude of the generall MMORPG player base. If a game can provide a heartpounding enjoyable experience, than woohoo! I'll take a wild ride, fun experience in a video game over a boring and bland one any day of the week. The whole point is for it to be entertaining. I don't think the majority of us are asking for a game that will give us nightmares... we're asking for the challenge to return to games. It doesn't have to be rediculous... but it shouldn't be so damned easy to max level a game.
Originally posted by Meridion
So quit whining, you got your niche games, be happy.
I'll be happy when the games that are released are fun again. But until publishers stop catering to people who are too lazy or too stupid to enjoy a little challenge, that won't happen.
Again... I am not asking for a game to be so hard that it frustrates people... but seriously... there does need to be some sense of challenge to it. Otherwise, what the hell is the point??
I love adrenaline and adrenaline gaming is needed. For some reason alot of people dislike adrenaline gaming and adrenaline in general life and i cant understand why, its an awesome and exciting feeling and it occurs in so many different ways, to many people asociate it with fear and panic which in difficult situations it can be, but accept it and get the excitement out of it and its all great.
So i agree, i want a game that makes my adrenaline flow, i game for me and all the other thousands of adrenaline junkies out there.
w00t w00t.
Garrik
________________________________
"once upon a midnight dreary, while i porn surfed, weak and weary, over many a strange and spurious site of 'hot xxx galore'. While i clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning, and my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour, " 'Tis not possible!", i muttered, "give me back my free hardcore!"..... quoth the server, 404."
Eve online is the only game that delivers what the OP needs like another guy here said.Pvping with something you worked for months and can loose in a second is what pvp is about for me and the only game offering it is eve online.But a lot of people can't take that, like the guy above posted he doesn't see the fun in loosing a ship by a gank.Nothing wrong with that , but fact stands eve online is the only game wich gives reall hardcore pvp.And hardcore in the sense that it'll hit you hard every time you die.Other games just set you back an hour/day in your levelling , maybe reset you to another location so you need to walk 10minutes and a lill damage on your sword.Where is the "danger" in that?
If NPC's are harder and dungeons in most games more crowded with mobs thus you'll die sooner : no one is gonna play it i think.You know when a new game comes out loads of people yell nerf etc immediatly.Fact is people want easy level games these days.No i am not saying i know all the online community but i do know how much WoW sold.
And if I say that I like a p2c internet chatroom with fluffy bunny killing involved? ^^
No seriously, i never said challenge was no good - the point is, its the dummy-cart, gotcha field space invaders kind of fun. Why are quicksave and quickload included in almost all single player games, why are the pvp games where you cannot lose anything besides the victory so successful (like Counterstrike, which is played my so many more people than WoW or any other mmoesque game)... Why is deathmatch the most-played mode in any first person shooter over internet, why do mountainbikers wear safety-helmets n stuff???
Because for standard people, its enough to lose, more precise: Its exactly what the normal videogamer wants to bear before getting frustrated. It sure can be challenging, everybody likes challenges, but if people lose, they don't want to be punished by the system. Is that such a hard to understand principle...
I know you guys are hard boiled "darn I lost ma ship but I'm gonna grind for 14 more days and make your life grief and sorrow muahahaha"-types, but hell on earth, normal people are not like that. Whats so hard to understand here?
You gain real experience. I don't mean points on your stats page, I mean you as a human gain experience in the game. It's the ultimate tool that allows a closely knit group of experienced and tactful players to kill overwhelming odds. Something I have yet to see in a game other than Eve where it's not all dependant on your level.
And if I say that I like a p2c internet chatroom with fluffy bunny killing involved? ^^
No seriously, i never said challenge was no good - the point is, its the dummy-cart, gotcha field space invaders kind of fun. Why are quicksave and quickload included in almost all single player games, why are the pvp games where you cannot lose anything besides the victory so successful (like Counterstrike, which is played my so many more people than WoW or any other mmoesque game)... Why is deathmatch the most-played mode in any first person shooter over internet, why do mountainbikers wear safety-helmets n stuff???
Because for standard people, its enough to lose, more precise: Its exactly what the normal videogamer wants to bear before getting frustrated. It sure can be challenging, everybody likes challenges, but if people lose, they don't want to be punished by the system. Is that such a hard to understand principle...
I know you guys are hard boiled "darn I lost ma ship but I'm gonna grind for 14 more days and make your life grief and sorrow muahahaha"-types, but hell on earth, normal people are not like that. Whats so hard to understand here?
Meridion
To the OP - Absolutely agree.
To Meridion - I think you are missing the main point. I do agree, I don't want to lose everything in a gankfest either, and while I enjoyed EvE, I didn't know anyone in the game, so it became boring to me That being said, I think what the OP is trying to say, that a game should be challenging in things besides just PvP. I have played ALOT, and I do mean alot, of MMOs over the past 10 years or so, and I would have to say that due to the sucess of WoW, most games have been going to the "low risk/huge reward" model. I played UO way back when it first came out (yeah, I know, I'm dating myself here), and while I had fun, I ended up leaving because I did NOT like their PvP system. To me, if a game can be a challenge in both PvP and PvE, then that is a GREAT game. One of the best times I had in a game was actually in DDO. I was with a group of friends, and we were about to enter a room that had a lot of trolls in it. We actually worked out a strategy that included the tanks and myself (cleric with high AC) shield blocking the door so the mobs couldn't get past us. The Wizards and Ranger would then damage from behind us in relative safety. That to me was great. Too often in MMOs now, I see the players that really don't care... they run off, or they will suicide just so they don't have to trek back an Inn or wherever. There is no big deal to dying. Heck, at least in DDO, if you die, you can either try and find a Rezz shrine (which you can only use once per adventure), or get a level 9+ cleric to Rezz you. However, if you release and return, your going to take a 20% xp hit on the final award, not to mention the xp debt you get for dying anyhow. That makes people less willing to allow themselves to die, or at least if they do die, people are all that quick to just release. People tend to work in teams and use strategy.
One of the things I loved about DAoC was that there was PvP with a purpose. Yeah, most of the time we just ended up at the Mile Gate either zerging or being zerged, but getting in a large group of folks to take down a castle was alot of fun, or even doing a relic run. Yes, I do enjoy PvP, but I'm not "hardcore" by any measure. And, just like the OP, I think that there should be a challenge to the game, and a reason to "want" to keep your character alive.
There's a lot of dissonance here, but a few threads of commonality as well.
I think that challenge is good too, but it's a hopelessly vague term. To EVE players, a game that does not offer lose-it-all-when-you-die PvP is simply not challenging ... PERIOD. So I think the word is something that scales based on any individual's preference cruves -- it's therefore a hopeless term to throw around in a discussion like this. Much more revealing is to discuss what we mean by "challenging".
There's the full PvP challenging, and we can use EVE as an example of that.
There's the full PvE challenging, and perhaps we can use EQ as an example of that.
These games attract really fundamentally different kinds of folks in terms of preferences, but both would say they like "challenge". The Vanbois also were/are looking for "challenge", etc.
It's more productive to talk about what we mean by "challenging", I think, than simply throwing the term out there.
Originally posted by Bandio Originally posted by Meridion And if I say that I like a p2c internet chatroom with fluffy bunny killing involved? ^^No seriously, i never said challenge was no good - the point is, its the dummy-cart, gotcha field space invaders kind of fun. Why are quicksave and quickload included in almost all single player games, why are the pvp games where you cannot lose anything besides the victory so successful (like Counterstrike, which is played my so many more people than WoW or any other mmoesque game)... Why is deathmatch the most-played mode in any first person shooter over internet, why do mountainbikers wear safety-helmets n stuff???Because for standard people, its enough to lose, more precise: Its exactly what the normal videogamer wants to bear before getting frustrated. It sure can be challenging, everybody likes challenges, but if people lose, they don't want to be punished by the system. Is that such a hard to understand principle... I know you guys are hard boiled "darn I lost ma ship but I'm gonna grind for 14 more days and make your life grief and sorrow muahahaha"-types, but hell on earth, normal people are not like that. Whats so hard to understand here?Meridion
To the OP - Absolutely agree. To Meridion - I think you are missing the main point. I do agree, I don't want to lose everything in a gankfest either, and while I enjoyed EvE, I didn't know anyone in the game, so it became boring to me That being said, I think what the OP is trying to say, that a game should be challenging in things besides just PvP. I have played ALOT, and I do mean alot, of MMOs over the past 10 years or so, and I would have to say that due to the sucess of WoW, most games have been going to the "low risk/huge reward" model. I played UO way back when it first came out (yeah, I know, I'm dating myself here), and while I had fun, I ended up leaving because I did NOT like their PvP system. To me, if a game can be a challenge in both PvP and PvE, then that is a GREAT game. One of the best times I had in a game was actually in DDO. I was with a group of friends, and we were about to enter a room that had a lot of trolls in it. We actually worked out a strategy that included the tanks and myself (cleric with high AC) shield blocking the door so the mobs couldn't get past us. The Wizards and Ranger would then damage from behind us in relative safety. That to me was great. Too often in MMOs now, I see the players that really don't care... they run off, or they will suicide just so they don't have to trek back an Inn or wherever. There is no big deal to dying. Heck, at least in DDO, if you die, you can either try and find a Rezz shrine (which you can only use once per adventure), or get a level 9+ cleric to Rezz you. However, if you release and return, your going to take a 20% xp hit on the final award, not to mention the xp debt you get for dying anyhow. That makes people less willing to allow themselves to die, or at least if they do die, people are all that quick to just release. People tend to work in teams and use strategy. One of the things I loved about DAoC was that there was PvP with a purpose. Yeah, most of the time we just ended up at the Mile Gate either zerging or being zerged, but getting in a large group of folks to take down a castle was alot of fun, or even doing a relic run. Yes, I do enjoy PvP, but I'm not "hardcore" by any measure. And, just like the OP, I think that there should be a challenge to the game, and a reason to "want" to keep your character alive.
To me, this is the biggest motivator for me to keep playing a game. The danger of not knowing whether I'll live or die by one mistake. The danger of knowing what the consquences are for making such a mistake. This is not intended to be a PvP thread, but I'll say this is why people like PvP. I MYSELF am not an avid PvP player in MMOs. I use to be crazy about FPS games before I played MMOs though, for the obvious reasons of not knowing when you were going to get shot and die. EverQuest was my first MMO and it gained my respect by how hard it was (in 1999) and the possibility of losing all my gear for making n00b mistakes. Sadly, the current genre of PvE based games offer no "real" sense of danger, which in turns causes apathy about your character and the game itself. I don't like how every company seems to cater to the people who just want to grind from quest to quest (solo of course) and prance in fields looking for rainbows & flowers. Edit: read my signature, "They are motivated by meeting the challenges of the world" Says it all.
so um, stop playing eq-clones.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I know you guys are hard boiled "darn I lost ma ship but I'm gonna grind for 14 more days and make your life grief and sorrow muahahaha"-types, but hell on earth, normal people are not like that. Whats so hard to understand here?
Meridion
um
if it takes you 14 days of "grinding" to get a new ship/gear/whatever, you need to get friends to help you play, or learn to play that game.
if you're talking about a game you don't have experience with, play the game first, then tell me which games exactly that it'll take you 14 days of grinding to get your gear back to where it was after you've lost it.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I know you guys are hard boiled "darn I lost ma ship but I'm gonna grind for 14 more days and make your life grief and sorrow muahahaha"-types, but hell on earth, normal people are not like that. Whats so hard to understand here?
Meridion
um
if it takes you 14 days of "grinding" to get a new ship/gear/whatever, you need to get friends to help you play, or learn to play that game.
if you're talking about a game you don't have experience with, play the game first, then tell me which games exactly that it'll take you 14 days of grinding to get your gear back to where it was after you've lost it.
i think he plays WoW and wow is just too easy
there is a middle ground between WoW and games like EVE...
Aw..but the key words in this topic is motivation and challenge. Who know what people's motivations are...and whats challenging to most people will not be challenging for you. I fall under the camp that there shouldnt be a manditory harsh death penalty. I cant speak for everyone, but for me if the death penalty is so harsh...what's the motivation to explore new worlds and try new classes or skills. I dont know about you, but I would have to stick with the most safest, time tested class or cookie cutter skills thats going to keep me alive...and you know what...Id never leave newbie territories. Now how fun is that!
How about rewarding players who never die with uber gear or a special title. Or when your creating your toon, you have a choice of god mode (or a god mode server) where the penalities are there but so are the nicer rewards. And as far as new games not catering for this type of challege, I agree that the market will only bare games that the masses will enjoy...trends come in waves so yes we will see more WoW/Lotro games...but that too will change. I also wouldnt discount niche game developers to come up with games that will fit your idea of challenge.
Comments
I totally agree with the topic starter.
I suspect the backlash has already started to happen.
MMORPG
Can you find the actual numbers for their production cost? If that cost 30 million dollars... someone got screwed. WoW is not worth 30 million dollars, not by half. Now... if you are talking about marketing, packaging, shipping, and manufacturing costs for the retail sales post production including all sales to date... I would believe 30 million dollars. But not for producing the game itself. I never said WoW was a knockoff... unless you considering copying your own design a knockoff... I do believe that it did not bring anything new to the table except perhaps 8 million newbies who post "wow rulz" threads EVERYWHERE.
That's not true at all. There have been very successful games which were fresh, new, and innovative. Same with all sorts of products. Hell, to say that innovation equals failure is rediculous. Seriously, come on now.
I beta tested it, played WoW for a bit post beta, and decided that it is a great game for a 12 year old. The graphics aren't all that impressive, the game is way too easy, and there is nothing fresh about it. The only benefit is the novelty factor of playing a truly 3D Warcraft game.
LMAO - Not really... but I can see where you would think that.
That's not exactly what people have in mind when referring to a game.
And personally, I am waiting for Pirated of the Burning Sea... that looks like fun, and it's new... innovative... and I get to shoot cannons at people while saying "Argh Matey" to myself. Good times all around!
- - - -
Support Independent Game Developers
/signed
With effects that can be cast on a player such as Blind (permanent unless you pay or can get someone to remove it for you) helpless, standing there unable to do anything for 60 mins or so, being feared for 3 to 4 mins and loads more effects, the dungeons you explore do warrant a degree of caution and uncertainty as you wander thru them. (Even if you have done them before!)
Facing a beholder for the first time
Oh yeah, did I mention the traps that can kill you before you know they are there....................
You must not leave until you free Arlos and have gathered your party safely in this hallway.
I'm glad some of you agree with me on this. I just wanted to add my reasons for desiring a dangerous environment in a MMO.
1) Respect. You have a greater respect for the game world and the game itself. Knowing you can't tread lightly and carelessly anywhere you want. Which brings me to my next reason....
2) Consquences. The possibility of losing EXP, something valuable, etc. makes you actually care about dieing. These consquences may vary but they need to exist. If they don't then what's the point? Think about it, you spend hundreds, maybe thousands of hours on your character in a game. How long will you even remember that character if you are playing a game with the challenge equivalency of tic tac toe?
3) Bonding. For pete's sake you are playing a massive multiplayer game. A challenging, dangerous world is a good reason to make friends and stick with them. And I mean from early on. Because realistically, the game should be MORE challenging if you're a Level 1 peasant wearing tattered cloth and armed with a splintered club.
- - - -
Support Independent Game Developers
I have played EvE in a lowsec corp and I found sitting there in a corpwar, waiting for some super-battlecruiser mob squad nuking away my hard-earned gear everything... but NOT entertaining. Thats the reason people were playing on trammel, the reason EvE has a ok but not overwhelming number of subs, the reason why gankfests fail - people get frustrated.
Most people don't get the fun out of frustration or fear. I don't need my heart pounding for a videogame. Heck, if my adrenaline goes up in a VIDEOGAME thats actually a reason for me to quit. I have adrenalin all day long, college, job, girlfriend, mountainbiking, whatever. But this is a stupid, dumb-ass videogame; It'd better entertain me and make me feel well, or it can pretty much go to hell ^^ ...
And I don't think, I know that this is the attitude of the vast majority of players...
So quit whining, you got your niche games, be happy.
Meridion
I won't get into the PvP discussion here, because the sense of danger shouldn't be limited to PvP. There needs to be some level of challenge to a game, or it's just a friggin 3D chat room where you can kill defenseless bunnies.
Gankfests are not my idea of fun. A game which incorporates a PvP system in an intelligent and well thought out manner would not be a gankfest. Danger doesn't have to mean you lose everything... that's way too intense for the general public's perception of a good time.
I'm glad you've done market research and can effectively claim you know the attitude of the generall MMORPG player base. If a game can provide a heartpounding enjoyable experience, than woohoo! I'll take a wild ride, fun experience in a video game over a boring and bland one any day of the week. The whole point is for it to be entertaining. I don't think the majority of us are asking for a game that will give us nightmares... we're asking for the challenge to return to games. It doesn't have to be rediculous... but it shouldn't be so damned easy to max level a game.
I'll be happy when the games that are released are fun again. But until publishers stop catering to people who are too lazy or too stupid to enjoy a little challenge, that won't happen.
Again... I am not asking for a game to be so hard that it frustrates people... but seriously... there does need to be some sense of challenge to it. Otherwise, what the hell is the point??
- - - -
Support Independent Game Developers
I love adrenaline and adrenaline gaming is needed. For some reason alot of people dislike adrenaline gaming and adrenaline in general life and i cant understand why, its an awesome and exciting feeling and it occurs in so many different ways, to many people asociate it with fear and panic which in difficult situations it can be, but accept it and get the excitement out of it and its all great.
So i agree, i want a game that makes my adrenaline flow, i game for me and all the other thousands of adrenaline junkies out there.
w00t w00t.
Garrik
________________________________
"once upon a midnight dreary, while i porn surfed, weak and weary, over many a strange and spurious site of 'hot xxx galore'. While i clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning, and my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour, " 'Tis not possible!", i muttered, "give me back my free hardcore!"..... quoth the server, 404."
Eve online is the only game that delivers what the OP needs like another guy here said.Pvping with something you worked for months and can loose in a second is what pvp is about for me and the only game offering it is eve online.But a lot of people can't take that, like the guy above posted he doesn't see the fun in loosing a ship by a gank.Nothing wrong with that , but fact stands eve online is the only game wich gives reall hardcore pvp.And hardcore in the sense that it'll hit you hard every time you die
.Other games just set you back an hour/day in your levelling , maybe reset you to another location so you need to walk 10minutes and a lill damage on your sword.Where is the "danger" in that?
- - - -
Support Independent Game Developers
No seriously, i never said challenge was no good - the point is, its the dummy-cart, gotcha field space invaders kind of fun. Why are quicksave and quickload included in almost all single player games, why are the pvp games where you cannot lose anything besides the victory so successful (like Counterstrike, which is played my so many more people than WoW or any other mmoesque game)... Why is deathmatch the most-played mode in any first person shooter over internet, why do mountainbikers wear safety-helmets n stuff???
Because for standard people, its enough to lose, more precise: Its exactly what the normal videogamer wants to bear before getting frustrated. It sure can be challenging, everybody likes challenges, but if people lose, they don't want to be punished by the system. Is that such a hard to understand principle...
I know you guys are hard boiled "darn I lost ma ship but I'm gonna grind for 14 more days and make your life grief and sorrow muahahaha"-types, but hell on earth, normal people are not like that. Whats so hard to understand here?
Meridion
You gain real experience. I don't mean points on your stats page, I mean you as a human gain experience in the game. It's the ultimate tool that allows a closely knit group of experienced and tactful players to kill overwhelming odds. Something I have yet to see in a game other than Eve where it's not all dependant on your level.
To the OP - Absolutely agree.
To Meridion - I think you are missing the main point. I do agree, I don't want to lose everything in a gankfest either, and while I enjoyed EvE, I didn't know anyone in the game, so it became boring to me
That being said, I think what the OP is trying to say, that a game should be challenging in things besides just PvP. I have played ALOT, and I do mean alot, of MMOs over the past 10 years or so, and I would have to say that due to the sucess of WoW, most games have been going to the "low risk/huge reward" model. I played UO way back when it first came out (yeah, I know, I'm dating myself here), and while I had fun, I ended up leaving because I did NOT like their PvP system. To me, if a game can be a challenge in both PvP and PvE, then that is a GREAT game. One of the best times I had in a game was actually in DDO. I was with a group of friends, and we were about to enter a room that had a lot of trolls in it. We actually worked out a strategy that included the tanks and myself (cleric with high AC) shield blocking the door so the mobs couldn't get past us. The Wizards and Ranger would then damage from behind us in relative safety. That to me was great. Too often in MMOs now, I see the players that really don't care... they run off, or they will suicide just so they don't have to trek back an Inn or wherever. There is no big deal to dying. Heck, at least in DDO, if you die, you can either try and find a Rezz shrine (which you can only use once per adventure), or get a level 9+ cleric to Rezz you. However, if you release and return, your going to take a 20% xp hit on the final award, not to mention the xp debt you get for dying anyhow. That makes people less willing to allow themselves to die, or at least if they do die, people are all that quick to just release. People tend to work in teams and use strategy.
One of the things I loved about DAoC was that there was PvP with a purpose. Yeah, most of the time we just ended up at the Mile Gate either zerging or being zerged, but getting in a large group of folks to take down a castle was alot of fun, or even doing a relic run. Yes, I do enjoy PvP, but I'm not "hardcore" by any measure. And, just like the OP, I think that there should be a challenge to the game, and a reason to "want" to keep your character alive.
I think that challenge is good too, but it's a hopelessly vague term. To EVE players, a game that does not offer lose-it-all-when-you-die PvP is simply not challenging ... PERIOD. So I think the word is something that scales based on any individual's preference cruves -- it's therefore a hopeless term to throw around in a discussion like this. Much more revealing is to discuss what we mean by "challenging".
There's the full PvP challenging, and we can use EVE as an example of that.
There's the full PvE challenging, and perhaps we can use EQ as an example of that.
These games attract really fundamentally different kinds of folks in terms of preferences, but both would say they like "challenge". The Vanbois also were/are looking for "challenge", etc.
It's more productive to talk about what we mean by "challenging", I think, than simply throwing the term out there.
Bandio, well put.
To the OP - Absolutely agree.To Meridion - I think you are missing the main point. I do agree, I don't want to lose everything in a gankfest either, and while I enjoyed EvE, I didn't know anyone in the game, so it became boring to me
One of the things I loved about DAoC was that there was PvP with a purpose. Yeah, most of the time we just ended up at the Mile Gate either zerging or being zerged, but getting in a large group of folks to take down a castle was alot of fun, or even doing a relic run. Yes, I do enjoy PvP, but I'm not "hardcore" by any measure. And, just like the OP, I think that there should be a challenge to the game, and a reason to "want" to keep your character alive.
MMORPG
... I wonder if the OP already knew this in advance and was baiting us.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
um
if it takes you 14 days of "grinding" to get a new ship/gear/whatever, you need to get friends to help you play, or learn to play that game.
if you're talking about a game you don't have experience with, play the game first, then tell me which games exactly that it'll take you 14 days of grinding to get your gear back to where it was after you've lost it.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
um
if it takes you 14 days of "grinding" to get a new ship/gear/whatever, you need to get friends to help you play, or learn to play that game.
if you're talking about a game you don't have experience with, play the game first, then tell me which games exactly that it'll take you 14 days of grinding to get your gear back to where it was after you've lost it.
i think he plays WoW and wow is just too easythere is a middle ground between WoW and games like EVE...
How about rewarding players who never die with uber gear or a special title. Or when your creating your toon, you have a choice of god mode (or a god mode server) where the penalities are there but so are the nicer rewards. And as far as new games not catering for this type of challege, I agree that the market will only bare games that the masses will enjoy...trends come in waves so yes we will see more WoW/Lotro games...but that too will change. I also wouldnt discount niche game developers to come up with games that will fit your idea of challenge.