Couple of things.... I'd submit that you are in the minority of people out there, and simple things like subscriber numbers for games would bear that out. I'm not saying that as a negative or even a bad thing, but it's also saying that the mainstream games arent attractive to you, but they are attractive to a much larger group of people than you. You may not like faster and simpler, that's fine, but I'd wager for each person like you, I could probably pull down at least 10 people who do, just by going to forums like WoW, and all the other games you mention. There is nothing wrong with what you like, I'm just saying it's simply not mainstream. (that's no comment on good or bad) It's tough to launch the 2nd most expensive MMO to date, and have it seeking a niche market. Call it sub 500k. Only reason I use that number is because that's what EQ was at it's peak, and because that's what Brad originially said he'd like to have at the end of year one.
I agree I do feel like I'm in the minority most of the time and do not feel offended about that at all. Your point just reinforces what I was trying to say initially. There is a very large crowd of people who enjoy easy/simple games. That crowd is much larger than the one I am in that likes challenging games that provides years of entertainment compared to months or weeks. BUT there is obviously a crowd of people like myself who enjoy challenging content. Just about every single player console/PC RPG/FPS/racer/sim I have ever played has difficulty settings. Even the solitaire or chess games on your computer allow you to increase the difficulty. Why does Microsoft go thru the hassle of offering more challenging games if all that matters are the majority of players who like easy/simple games?
There are 35 games listed in the "Released Games" column and everyone of them is targeting that "very large crowd of people who enjoy easy/simple games" and not one of them targets the rest of us. If you read Brad's posts from 2-3 years ago you will see that he never meant Vanguard to target the hardcore gamer which means he is in direct competition with popular games like WoW, CoH, & CoV.
Had Vanguard been a hardcore game thier sub base would never reach WoW's proportions, but they could have been the only show in town. What you have now is another game that allows you to solo from 1-50 in less than 2 months, allows you to flow from quest to quest without the need to explore or discover anything on your own as well as travel across any of the continents in 15-20 minutes.
Damn I feel like my posts are getting longer and longer, sorry bout that.
If you are currently playing Vanguard and do not think that SOE is going to change Vanguard in very fundamental ways (NGE style) without your permission. Then you are a delusional fool (which would help explain why you think Vanguard is good right now). Sigil's Vanguard is shit. I can't put it any other way. And only Brad and YOU can't see it.
SOE + Vanguard = Vanguard NGE... Pure and simple. And to be honest, that would be the best thing that could happen to the game. Unfortunately some people will be hurt by that, and I do not wish that on them /violin. Look on the bright side however, it won't be as many folks that were suckered in to buying that P.O.S.
we still don't know the full extent of SOE's future involvement in VG. I personally hold no hate against SOE. I understand why others do though. I think they can only help Vanguard at this point.
Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny. Lao-Tze
I am repeating this like a mantra now: VG will fail if it stays in the hardcore area. Its nothing personal against your style, its just a too small niche to pay the 30++ million dollars, thats all. It cant be hardcore. Simply as that. I am honestly sorry you lose that hope, but thats how it is. Pls accept that and spare us endless fights over hardcore or not hardcore. They need and want more players than hardcore can deliver. Besides, Brad never said it was for hardcore only, he always said it was more challanging than present games (which it is) but not like original EQ1 (which it isnt). So he told about an in-between of old hardcore and new casual and IMO VG is about that right now.
Sidenote: difficulty is NOT necessary the slowness of levelling. The speed of the fastest grinders does say little about difficulty. It never was difficult, not in EQ1 and not today. The TRUTH is, it ALWAYS was only grinding! I respect ppl have pink glass memories of the past, thats quite human, but we really have to face the facts. EQ1 grinding was prolonged by many artifical slow-down mechanisms, like the hilarious amount of down-time (read for younger players: you had to wait endlessly to regain health and mana back then between each fight) and other barriers to slow the game down. Almost ALL of them were boring and tedious. It doesnt mean the game wasnt fun. But it had a lot of non-fun aspects only a certain "hardcorish" feeling ppl were willing to accept. Those days are PAST. Its like turn bases strategy or point and click adventures. I loved them, but they are niche now and never will be more than niche anymore. It will be much more painful for all of us if we let go dreams of a glorious return of the "good old days".
A personal moment of revelation I had was when I paused playing EQ2 after a year and played WOW. I was used to camp boss mobs for days in EQ2. (yes in EQ TWO) But lo and behold, when that first named boss in Goldshire (WOW) was just killed he came back 5 minutes later! Man, I was just so happy. Sure, camping was talking to ppl and socializing. But I socialized in Goldshired WHEN I WANTED TO, at a campfire or tavern, NOT when the game forced me to silly, mindless hour-long camping. It NEVER was fun in that aspect, say what you want. No was that a challenge, it was just stupid, but back then we didnt know better.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Not to sound too trollish here but the one thing that confuses me is why would SOE even want Vanguard, they already have EQ and EQII so why add another fantasy based MMO to the mix?
Couple of things.... I'd submit that you are in the minority of people out there, and simple things like subscriber numbers for games would bear that out. I'm not saying that as a negative or even a bad thing, but it's also saying that the mainstream games arent attractive to you, but they are attractive to a much larger group of people than you. You may not like faster and simpler, that's fine, but I'd wager for each person like you, I could probably pull down at least 10 people who do, just by going to forums like WoW, and all the other games you mention. There is nothing wrong with what you like, I'm just saying it's simply not mainstream. (that's no comment on good or bad) It's tough to launch the 2nd most expensive MMO to date, and have it seeking a niche market. Call it sub 500k. Only reason I use that number is because that's what EQ was at it's peak, and because that's what Brad originially said he'd like to have at the end of year one.
I agree I do feel like I'm in the minority most of the time and do not feel offended about that at all. Your point just reinforces what I was trying to say initially. There is a very large crowd of people who enjoy easy/simple games. That crowd is much larger than the one I am in that likes challenging games that provides years of entertainment compared to months or weeks. BUT there is obviously a crowd of people like myself who enjoy challenging content. Just about every single player console/PC RPG/FPS/racer/sim I have ever played has difficulty settings. Even the solitaire or chess games on your computer allow you to increase the difficulty. Why does Microsoft go thru the hassle of offering more challenging games if all that matters are the majority of players who like easy/simple games?
There are 35 games listed in the "Released Games" column and everyone of them is targeting that "very large crowd of people who enjoy easy/simple games" and not one of them targets the rest of us. If you read Brad's posts from 2-3 years ago you will see that he never meant Vanguard to target the hardcore gamer which means he is in direct competition with popular games like WoW, CoH, & CoV.
Had Vanguard been a hardcore game thier sub base would never reach WoW's proportions, but they could have been the only show in town. What you have now is another game that allows you to solo from 1-50 in less than 2 months, allows you to flow from quest to quest without the need to explore or discover anything on your own as well as travel across any of the continents in 15-20 minutes.
Damn I feel like my posts are getting longer and longer, sorry bout that.
Hehe, it's cool about the length, it makes sense!
Brad may never have wanted to compete for all the same folks who were buying WoW, but by spending what he did, I think they had to start making concessions to appeal to a broader market. If they would have made the game for 15-20 million, they probably could have looked great right now. I think the basic design problem was saying that they did not want to be hardcore, but to still include so many mechanics that have "hardcore" connotations to them, like corpse runs, long travel, non-instanced dungeons. He took mechanics that are associated with hardcore, and tried to market them as more casual. I just dont see that working
Couple of things.... I'd submit that you are in the minority of people out there, and simple things like subscriber numbers for games would bear that out. I'm not saying that as a negative or even a bad thing, but it's also saying that the mainstream games arent attractive to you, but they are attractive to a much larger group of people than you. You may not like faster and simpler, that's fine, but I'd wager for each person like you, I could probably pull down at least 10 people who do, just by going to forums like WoW, and all the other games you mention. There is nothing wrong with what you like, I'm just saying it's simply not mainstream. (that's no comment on good or bad) It's tough to launch the 2nd most expensive MMO to date, and have it seeking a niche market. Call it sub 500k. Only reason I use that number is because that's what EQ was at it's peak, and because that's what Brad originially said he'd like to have at the end of year one.
I agree I do feel like I'm in the minority most of the time and do not feel offended about that at all. Your point just reinforces what I was trying to say initially. There is a very large crowd of people who enjoy easy/simple games. That crowd is much larger than the one I am in that likes challenging games that provides years of entertainment compared to months or weeks. BUT there is obviously a crowd of people like myself who enjoy challenging content. Just about every single player console/PC RPG/FPS/racer/sim I have ever played has difficulty settings. Even the solitaire or chess games on your computer allow you to increase the difficulty. Why does Microsoft go thru the hassle of offering more challenging games if all that matters are the majority of players who like easy/simple games?
There are 35 games listed in the "Released Games" column and everyone of them is targeting that "very large crowd of people who enjoy easy/simple games" and not one of them targets the rest of us. If you read Brad's posts from 2-3 years ago you will see that he never meant Vanguard to target the hardcore gamer which means he is in direct competition with popular games like WoW, CoH, & CoV.
Had Vanguard been a hardcore game thier sub base would never reach WoW's proportions, but they could have been the only show in town. What you have now is another game that allows you to solo from 1-50 in less than 2 months, allows you to flow from quest to quest without the need to explore or discover anything on your own as well as travel across any of the continents in 15-20 minutes.
Damn I feel like my posts are getting longer and longer, sorry bout that.
So these single player games that have a difficulty setting...I assume you play on the harder levels? As do I. Then why do you let these MMO games hand-hold you? All of you people you claim to be advocates of non-linear games sure spend an aweful lot of energy on playing the victim, as if you don't have a choice in these games. The difficulty in MMOs is self-selecting. Want a more difficult game? Then choose a more difficult 'game setting' by fighting MOBs that are tougher than you, or completing tasks above your level. There is your difficulty setting.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Not to sound too trollish here but the one thing that confuses me is why would SOE even want Vanguard, they already have EQ and EQII so why add another fantasy based MMO to the mix?
Instead of possibly losing EQI/II subs to Vanguard, you keep them all with the company....at a discount.
It's rarely ever a bad move to absorb your competition. Especially if you can do it relatively cheaply. Something I'm sure they thought of when they signed the original deal with Sigil.
The difficulty in MMOs is self-selecting. Want a more difficult game? Then choose a more difficult 'game setting' by fighting MOBs that are tougher than you, or completing tasks above your level. There is your difficulty setting.
Agreed.
These games can easily be as hard as someone wants them to be, whether by fighting in areas higher than your level, or attempting the higher level quests first, then working your way down to the lower level ones. And sometimes, the game itself gives you options. In City of Heroes/Villains, for example, they offer a Notoriety system. For a modest fee that scales according to player level, people can set their instanced missions to whatever difficulty they want, from easy to hard.
Challenge in an MMO is entirely up to the player. Want a harder game? Fight larger groups of more powerful mobs.
I personally think everything he said is right. Time is a great healer, and Vanguard will bloom in the end. SOE's financial input is obviously a must. Sigil will not let this game go down the pan, SOE quite clearly see its potential, and your snotty comments on this site are not enough to bring the game down. VANGUARD ROLLS ON TO GLORY!!!!!!!!!!!!
The problem is that Vanguard is a stinker even if you have a killer system. The world is huge and difficult to populate with content, but even so, that is not an excuse for it being mostly empty. . . vast areas of boring travel-time that separate small islands of content without any indicators on how to find level appropriate content.
Plus, much of this difficult to find content is group reliant.. WoW really learned the sweet spot on group play. People love to play in groups, but you have to make it convenient and fun. Portal stones that help you find group members and bring them all to the entrance of the instance are extremely helpful, and having directed instanced dungeons with high quality content as well as group-level rewards really make the experience rewarding.
Vanguard definitely wants to appeal to an old school gamer, and from the forums, it's obvious that there are people who at least say that they want these things, but I'm of the opinion that people vote with their wallets. There is a reason why FF XI, a game that is built on one of the most beloved franchises in the world barely has any US players and that WoW has millions. People just want to have a good time.
Maybe they'll address the game's problems in this year too. Who knows. I just don't have a lot of faith in them given their current track record.
I personally think everything he said is right. Time is a great healer, and Vanguard will bloom in the end. SOE's financial input is obviously a must. Sigil will not let this game go down the pan, SOE quite clearly see its potential, and your snotty comments on this site are not enough to bring the game down. VANGUARD ROLLS ON TO GLORY!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by healz4uI agree completely. The amount of available solo content from tasks, Quests, epic Quests, and missives is far-reaching in Vanguard. The direction might be to "dumb" down Vanguard, but I do not necessarily think solo content does that. However, MMORPGs in general, in particular LotR, are very linear, forced, and in a general sense easy. The sense of challenge, the spice of danger, and thrill are just not there.
Well quite obviously the number of people willing to put themselves through that kind of gameplay is very low now. Sigil had to increase the exp rewards pretty early on. And I'm sorry but there was nothing more challenging about VG's gameplay apart from the tedium.
Not to mention he hopes that churn in users replacing systems will bring in more subscribers, where he is way wrong, if anything it may result in less subscribers, since there will be several more games to compete with towards the end of the year, not to mention early 2008 when Warhammer hits (I hope).
I hoped Vanguard would do well, but Sigil have made too many mistakes and the even tighter link up with SOE is just another example, anyone remember Brad saying that SOE would have nothing to do with game development and direction? , it appears that was another mistake and less than 6 months into the games life.
Not to sound too trollish here but the one thing that confuses me is why would SOE even want Vanguard, they already have EQ and EQII so why add another fantasy based MMO to the mix?
Instead of possibly losing EQI/II subs to Vanguard, you keep them all with the company....at a discount.
It's rarely ever a bad move to absorb your competition. Especially if you can do it relatively cheaply. Something I'm sure they thought of when they signed the original deal with Sigil.
That would make sense if vanguard was a great game and if EQ and EQII were bleeding customers right and left to play Vanguard. However that does not seem to be happening otherwise Sigil would not be in the shape they are in now.
I personally think everything he said is right. Time is a great healer, and Vanguard will bloom in the end. SOE's financial input is obviously a must. Sigil will not let this game go down the pan, SOE quite clearly see its potential, and your snotty comments on this site are not enough to bring the game down. VANGUARD ROLLS ON TO GLORY!!!!!!!!!!!!
ok... I think that was sarcasm.
At least I hope it was.
If you want to see what this will mean, log into MxO. Want their MxO takeover in a nutshell?
1. They consolidated already laggy servers by half.
2. They created a CU which just screwed the game further.
3. They fired 99% of the design team.
4. Their new content? "Relive the storylines of the past". Yeah, re-rack the stuff WB built.
Now the game is on life support with about 3 employees. The upside is the dev-to-player ratio is 1-1.
Now if you hope that VG will be "revamped".. you can go to the SWG forums to hear how good that all worked out.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
If you want to see what this will mean, log into MxO. Want their MxO takeover in a nutshell?
1. They consolidated already laggy servers by half.
2. They created a CU which just screwed the game further.
3. They fired 99% of the design team.
4. Their new content? "Relive the storylines of the past". Yeah, re-rack the stuff WB built.
Now the game is on life support with about 3 employees. The upside is the dev-to-player ratio is 1-1.
Now if you hope that VG will be "revamped".. you can go to the SWG forums to hear how good that all worked out.
Well Shayde, I don't even know how SOE can turn the game around even with their deep(er) pockets. Basically, the only way to save the game and bring it anywhere close to the 250-300k mark they wanted they need to bring in new players. The problem there is that the stench of Brad and the alread horrible reputation of the game is going to be like a proverbial albatross around the neck. The only thing that really makes sense would be to have a thorough investigation of what worked and what didn't work in VG, take the existing art assets and develop it into a new game with a new title.
And since I know someone is going to point to EQ2 as turning a game around:
1. EQ2 was released years ago - the market is different today; there is a lot of GOOD current and upcoming competition.
2. EQ2 had a brand name to help it along. VG is just some generic MMORPG sitting on a shelf. That means a LOT more work to market it
3. EQ2 was not near in as bad a shape as VG is now.
Basically I see VG needing a LOT of time and a LOT of $$ pouring into it just to take a gamble. It's no kind of foregone conclusion that a huge injection of cash is going to just magically bring in new players.
I personally think everything he said is right. Time is a great healer, and Vanguard will bloom in the end. SOE's financial input is obviously a must. Sigil will not let this game go down the pan, SOE quite clearly see its potential, and your snotty comments on this site are not enough to bring the game down. VANGUARD ROLLS ON TO GLORY!!!!!!!!!!!!
ok... I think that was sarcasm.
At least I hope it was.
If you want to see what this will mean, log into MxO. Want their MxO takeover in a nutshell?
1. They consolidated already laggy servers by half.
2. They created a CU which just screwed the game further.
3. They fired 99% of the design team.
4. Their new content? "Relive the storylines of the past". Yeah, re-rack the stuff WB built.
Now the game is on life support with about 3 employees. The upside is the dev-to-player ratio is 1-1.
Now if you hope that VG will be "revamped".. you can go to the SWG forums to hear how good that all worked out. shayde, have you even tried vg?
I personally think everything he said is right. Time is a great healer, and Vanguard will bloom in the end. SOE's financial input is obviously a must. Sigil will not let this game go down the pan, SOE quite clearly see its potential, and your snotty comments on this site are not enough to bring the game down. VANGUARD ROLLS ON TO GLORY!!!!!!!!!!!!
ok... I think that was sarcasm.
At least I hope it was.
If you want to see what this will mean, log into MxO. Want their MxO takeover in a nutshell?
1. They consolidated already laggy servers by half.
2. They created a CU which just screwed the game further.
3. They fired 99% of the design team.
4. Their new content? "Relive the storylines of the past". Yeah, re-rack the stuff WB built.
Now the game is on life support with about 3 employees. The upside is the dev-to-player ratio is 1-1.
Now if you hope that VG will be "revamped".. you can go to the SWG forums to hear how good that all worked out. shayde, have you even tried vg?
Yep.
But hey... that really doesn't matter now does it. The discussion was all about how $OE can screw up a game, and I've lived through THAT twice on SWG and once on MxO. I was actually looking forward to this game until the taint of $OE got all over it. I gave it a shot anyway, and now am kinda bummed that this failed so badly. It had some complex ideas that MMO's SHOULD be looking towards, but sadly aren't.
I wouldn't be suprised if VG is the last game with complex crafting or player housing. Due to the way this played out so badly, most of the designers of other games will look at VG's failure as "too complex and high end" and will not try to raise the bar. They won't bother to make the game we all REALLY want to see because they saw VG fail. They won't look at the mismanagment, or the shoddy rollout, or all the real reasons it failed, they'll look at the game itself and say "They just don't want complicated".
And for that, we all lose.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I personally think everything he said is right. Time is a great healer, and Vanguard will bloom in the end. SOE's financial input is obviously a must. Sigil will not let this game go down the pan, SOE quite clearly see its potential, and your snotty comments on this site are not enough to bring the game down. VANGUARD ROLLS ON TO GLORY!!!!!!!!!!!!
ok... I think that was sarcasm.
At least I hope it was.
If you want to see what this will mean, log into MxO. Want their MxO takeover in a nutshell?
1. They consolidated already laggy servers by half.
2. They created a CU which just screwed the game further.
3. They fired 99% of the design team.
4. Their new content? "Relive the storylines of the past". Yeah, re-rack the stuff WB built.
Now the game is on life support with about 3 employees. The upside is the dev-to-player ratio is 1-1.
Now if you hope that VG will be "revamped".. you can go to the SWG forums to hear how good that all worked out. shayde, have you even tried vg?
Yep.
But hey... that really doesn't matter now does it. The discussion was all about how $OE can screw up a game, and I've lived through THAT twice on SWG and once on MxO. I was actually looking forward to this game until the taint of $OE got all over it. I gave it a shot anyway, and now am kinda bummed that this failed so badly. It had some complex ideas that MMO's SHOULD be looking towards, but sadly aren't.
I wouldn't be suprised if VG is the last game with complex crafting or player housing. Due to the way this played out so badly, most of the designers of other games will look at VG's failure as "too complex and high end" and will not try to raise the bar. They won't bother to make the game we all REALLY want to see because they saw VG fail. They won't look at the mismanagment, or the shoddy rollout, or all the real reasons it failed, they'll look at the game itself and say "They just don't want complicated".
And for that, we all lose. Then lets heartily support VG and save the genre!!!
I wouldn't be suprised if VG is the last game with complex crafting or player housing.
It wouldnt suprise me either,but to me it would be because i expect dev teams to draw the wrong conclusion from MMO history almost every time.Its extremely rare they ever manage to draw the right one, hence why the games all have such poor showings in acquired and retained customer bases.AND why the vast majority of MMOs all feel the same.
Complex crafting and housing did little to nothing to put VG in the shapes its in.VG was mangled the very day a certain DEV decided to make yet another of his games, that bascially embraced all the same old mistakes hes clung to all along.
Then lets heartily support VG and save the genre!!!
The MMO genre isn't going to live and die by Vanguard, just as it's not going to always be looking to WoW for ideas. The games that will ultimately survive are the ones that carve out their own identities.
If anything, we should look to VG's launch as a cautionary tale of what NOT to do. They had the money. They had the time, and the backing of a major company in order to design the game the way they saw fit. Instead of sticking to their original ideas, they went back again and again and again to redesign things and ended up with a game that tries to appeal to everyone while appealing to very few.
Perhaps if they'd stuck to a coherent Vision rather than trying to be everything to everyone, they might be in better shape now.
I wouldn't be suprised if VG is the last game with complex crafting or player housing. It wouldnt suprise me either,but to me it would be because i expect dev teams to draw the wrong conclusion from MMO history almost every time.Its extremely rare they ever manage to draw the right one, hence why the games all have such poor showings in acquired and retained customer bases.AND why the vast majority of MMOs all feel the same. Complex crafting and housing did little to nothing to put VG in the shapes its in.VG was mangled the very day a certain DEV decided to make yet another of his games, that bascially embraced all the same old mistakes hes clung to all along.
Alas I too fear so and THAT is the biggest and most unforgivable crime of Sigil and Brad IMO! The damage their may have brought on complex MMOs!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Then lets heartily support VG and save the genre!!!
The MMO genre isn't going to live and die by Vanguard, just as it's not going to always be looking to WoW for ideas. The games that will ultimately survive are the ones that carve out their own identities.
If anything, we should look to VG's launch as a cautionary tale of what NOT to do. They had the money. They had the time, and the backing of a major company in order to design the game the way they saw fit. Instead of sticking to their original ideas, they went back again and again and again to redesign things and ended up with a game that tries to appeal to everyone while appealing to very few.
Perhaps if they'd stuck to a coherent Vision rather than trying to be everything to everyone, they might be in better shape now.
Exactly! People who have never tried VG still believe that the game was designed for hardcore players yet there is nothing hardcore about it. No corpse runs required, instant-porting or multiple means of transportation to travel just about anywhere in game in 15-20 minutes, huge assortment of quests that guide you along a path of least resistance, little to zero downtime during combat, and FAST level progression. Where is the hardcore that is supposedly ruining the game?
It was hyped for one target crowd, built for another and hasn't been a hit with either.
Then lets heartily support VG and save the genre!!!
The MMO genre isn't going to live and die by Vanguard, just as it's not going to always be looking to WoW for ideas. The games that will ultimately survive are the ones that carve out their own identities.
If anything, we should look to VG's launch as a cautionary tale of what NOT to do. They had the money. They had the time, and the backing of a major company in order to design the game the way they saw fit. Instead of sticking to their original ideas, they went back again and again and again to redesign things and ended up with a game that tries to appeal to everyone while appealing to very few.
Perhaps if they'd stuck to a coherent Vision rather than trying to be everything to everyone, they might be in better shape now.
Exactly! People who have never tried VG still believe that the game was designed for hardcore players yet there is nothing hardcore about it. No corpse runs required, instant-porting or multiple means of transportation to travel just about anywhere in game in 15-20 minutes, huge assortment of quests that guide you along a path of least resistance, little to zero downtime during combat, and FAST level progression. Where is the hardcore that is supposedly ruining the game?
It was hyped for one target crowd, built for another and hasn't been a hit with either.
So i dont have to go collect my tombstone becouse no corpse run is required? Did you play this game? Fast lvl progression? Again did you play this game?
Comments
I agree I do feel like I'm in the minority most of the time and do not feel offended about that at all. Your point just reinforces what I was trying to say initially. There is a very large crowd of people who enjoy easy/simple games. That crowd is much larger than the one I am in that likes challenging games that provides years of entertainment compared to months or weeks. BUT there is obviously a crowd of people like myself who enjoy challenging content. Just about every single player console/PC RPG/FPS/racer/sim I have ever played has difficulty settings. Even the solitaire or chess games on your computer allow you to increase the difficulty. Why does Microsoft go thru the hassle of offering more challenging games if all that matters are the majority of players who like easy/simple games?
There are 35 games listed in the "Released Games" column and everyone of them is targeting that "very large crowd of people who enjoy easy/simple games" and not one of them targets the rest of us. If you read Brad's posts from 2-3 years ago you will see that he never meant Vanguard to target the hardcore gamer which means he is in direct competition with popular games like WoW, CoH, & CoV.
Had Vanguard been a hardcore game thier sub base would never reach WoW's proportions, but they could have been the only show in town. What you have now is another game that allows you to solo from 1-50 in less than 2 months, allows you to flow from quest to quest without the need to explore or discover anything on your own as well as travel across any of the continents in 15-20 minutes.
Damn I feel like my posts are getting longer and longer, sorry bout that.
SOE + Vanguard = Vanguard NGE... Pure and simple. And to be honest, that would be the best thing that could happen to the game. Unfortunately some people will be hurt by that, and I do not wish that on them /violin. Look on the bright side however, it won't be as many folks that were suckered in to buying that P.O.S.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
we still don't know the full extent of SOE's future involvement in VG. I personally hold no hate against SOE. I understand why others do though. I think they can only help Vanguard at this point.
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
I am repeating this like a mantra now: VG will fail if it stays in the hardcore area. Its nothing personal against your style, its just a too small niche to pay the 30++ million dollars, thats all. It cant be hardcore. Simply as that. I am honestly sorry you lose that hope, but thats how it is. Pls accept that and spare us endless fights over hardcore or not hardcore. They need and want more players than hardcore can deliver. Besides, Brad never said it was for hardcore only, he always said it was more challanging than present games (which it is) but not like original EQ1 (which it isnt). So he told about an in-between of old hardcore and new casual and IMO VG is about that right now.
Sidenote: difficulty is NOT necessary the slowness of levelling. The speed of the fastest grinders does say little about difficulty. It never was difficult, not in EQ1 and not today. The TRUTH is, it ALWAYS was only grinding! I respect ppl have pink glass memories of the past, thats quite human, but we really have to face the facts. EQ1 grinding was prolonged by many artifical slow-down mechanisms, like the hilarious amount of down-time (read for younger players: you had to wait endlessly to regain health and mana back then between each fight) and other barriers to slow the game down. Almost ALL of them were boring and tedious. It doesnt mean the game wasnt fun. But it had a lot of non-fun aspects only a certain "hardcorish" feeling ppl were willing to accept. Those days are PAST. Its like turn bases strategy or point and click adventures. I loved them, but they are niche now and never will be more than niche anymore. It will be much more painful for all of us if we let go dreams of a glorious return of the "good old days".
A personal moment of revelation I had was when I paused playing EQ2 after a year and played WOW. I was used to camp boss mobs for days in EQ2. (yes in EQ TWO) But lo and behold, when that first named boss in Goldshire (WOW) was just killed he came back 5 minutes later! Man, I was just so happy. Sure, camping was talking to ppl and socializing. But I socialized in Goldshired WHEN I WANTED TO, at a campfire or tavern, NOT when the game forced me to silly, mindless hour-long camping. It NEVER was fun in that aspect, say what you want. No was that a challenge, it was just stupid, but back then we didnt know better.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I miss DAoC
I agree I do feel like I'm in the minority most of the time and do not feel offended about that at all. Your point just reinforces what I was trying to say initially. There is a very large crowd of people who enjoy easy/simple games. That crowd is much larger than the one I am in that likes challenging games that provides years of entertainment compared to months or weeks. BUT there is obviously a crowd of people like myself who enjoy challenging content. Just about every single player console/PC RPG/FPS/racer/sim I have ever played has difficulty settings. Even the solitaire or chess games on your computer allow you to increase the difficulty. Why does Microsoft go thru the hassle of offering more challenging games if all that matters are the majority of players who like easy/simple games?
There are 35 games listed in the "Released Games" column and everyone of them is targeting that "very large crowd of people who enjoy easy/simple games" and not one of them targets the rest of us. If you read Brad's posts from 2-3 years ago you will see that he never meant Vanguard to target the hardcore gamer which means he is in direct competition with popular games like WoW, CoH, & CoV.
Had Vanguard been a hardcore game thier sub base would never reach WoW's proportions, but they could have been the only show in town. What you have now is another game that allows you to solo from 1-50 in less than 2 months, allows you to flow from quest to quest without the need to explore or discover anything on your own as well as travel across any of the continents in 15-20 minutes.
Damn I feel like my posts are getting longer and longer, sorry bout that.
Hehe, it's cool about the length, it makes sense!
Brad may never have wanted to compete for all the same folks who were buying WoW, but by spending what he did, I think they had to start making concessions to appeal to a broader market. If they would have made the game for 15-20 million, they probably could have looked great right now. I think the basic design problem was saying that they did not want to be hardcore, but to still include so many mechanics that have "hardcore" connotations to them, like corpse runs, long travel, non-instanced dungeons. He took mechanics that are associated with hardcore, and tried to market them as more casual. I just dont see that working
I agree I do feel like I'm in the minority most of the time and do not feel offended about that at all. Your point just reinforces what I was trying to say initially. There is a very large crowd of people who enjoy easy/simple games. That crowd is much larger than the one I am in that likes challenging games that provides years of entertainment compared to months or weeks. BUT there is obviously a crowd of people like myself who enjoy challenging content. Just about every single player console/PC RPG/FPS/racer/sim I have ever played has difficulty settings. Even the solitaire or chess games on your computer allow you to increase the difficulty. Why does Microsoft go thru the hassle of offering more challenging games if all that matters are the majority of players who like easy/simple games?
There are 35 games listed in the "Released Games" column and everyone of them is targeting that "very large crowd of people who enjoy easy/simple games" and not one of them targets the rest of us. If you read Brad's posts from 2-3 years ago you will see that he never meant Vanguard to target the hardcore gamer which means he is in direct competition with popular games like WoW, CoH, & CoV.
Had Vanguard been a hardcore game thier sub base would never reach WoW's proportions, but they could have been the only show in town. What you have now is another game that allows you to solo from 1-50 in less than 2 months, allows you to flow from quest to quest without the need to explore or discover anything on your own as well as travel across any of the continents in 15-20 minutes.
Damn I feel like my posts are getting longer and longer, sorry bout that.
So these single player games that have a difficulty setting...I assume you play on the harder levels? As do I. Then why do you let these MMO games hand-hold you? All of you people you claim to be advocates of non-linear games sure spend an aweful lot of energy on playing the victim, as if you don't have a choice in these games. The difficulty in MMOs is self-selecting. Want a more difficult game? Then choose a more difficult 'game setting' by fighting MOBs that are tougher than you, or completing tasks above your level. There is your difficulty setting.
_____________________________
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Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
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Instead of possibly losing EQI/II subs to Vanguard, you keep them all with the company....at a discount.
It's rarely ever a bad move to absorb your competition. Especially if you can do it relatively cheaply. Something I'm sure they thought of when they signed the original deal with Sigil.
Agreed.
These games can easily be as hard as someone wants them to be, whether by fighting in areas higher than your level, or attempting the higher level quests first, then working your way down to the lower level ones. And sometimes, the game itself gives you options. In City of Heroes/Villains, for example, they offer a Notoriety system. For a modest fee that scales according to player level, people can set their instanced missions to whatever difficulty they want, from easy to hard.
Challenge in an MMO is entirely up to the player. Want a harder game? Fight larger groups of more powerful mobs.
I should not have to resist the shiny teleporter machine!
It should take me just as long to travel as it would in real life. This isn't a game. It's not supposed to be fun. THIS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS, DAMMIT!
The problem is that Vanguard is a stinker even if you have a killer system. The world is huge and difficult to populate with content, but even so, that is not an excuse for it being mostly empty. . . vast areas of boring travel-time that separate small islands of content without any indicators on how to find level appropriate content.
Plus, much of this difficult to find content is group reliant.. WoW really learned the sweet spot on group play. People love to play in groups, but you have to make it convenient and fun. Portal stones that help you find group members and bring them all to the entrance of the instance are extremely helpful, and having directed instanced dungeons with high quality content as well as group-level rewards really make the experience rewarding.
Vanguard definitely wants to appeal to an old school gamer, and from the forums, it's obvious that there are people who at least say that they want these things, but I'm of the opinion that people vote with their wallets. There is a reason why FF XI, a game that is built on one of the most beloved franchises in the world barely has any US players and that WoW has millions. People just want to have a good time.
Maybe they'll address the game's problems in this year too. Who knows. I just don't have a lot of faith in them given their current track record.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
I hoped Vanguard would do well, but Sigil have made too many mistakes and the even tighter link up with SOE is just another example, anyone remember Brad saying that SOE would have nothing to do with game development and direction? , it appears that was another mistake and less than 6 months into the games life.
Instead of possibly losing EQI/II subs to Vanguard, you keep them all with the company....at a discount.
It's rarely ever a bad move to absorb your competition. Especially if you can do it relatively cheaply. Something I'm sure they thought of when they signed the original deal with Sigil.
That would make sense if vanguard was a great game and if EQ and EQII were bleeding customers right and left to play Vanguard. However that does not seem to be happening otherwise Sigil would not be in the shape they are in now.I miss DAoC
At least I hope it was.
If you want to see what this will mean, log into MxO. Want their MxO takeover in a nutshell?
1. They consolidated already laggy servers by half.
2. They created a CU which just screwed the game further.
3. They fired 99% of the design team.
4. Their new content? "Relive the storylines of the past". Yeah, re-rack the stuff WB built.
Now the game is on life support with about 3 employees. The upside is the dev-to-player ratio is 1-1.
Now if you hope that VG will be "revamped".. you can go to the SWG forums to hear how good that all worked out.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Well Shayde, I don't even know how SOE can turn the game around even with their deep(er) pockets. Basically, the only way to save the game and bring it anywhere close to the 250-300k mark they wanted they need to bring in new players. The problem there is that the stench of Brad and the alread horrible reputation of the game is going to be like a proverbial albatross around the neck. The only thing that really makes sense would be to have a thorough investigation of what worked and what didn't work in VG, take the existing art assets and develop it into a new game with a new title.
And since I know someone is going to point to EQ2 as turning a game around:
1. EQ2 was released years ago - the market is different today; there is a lot of GOOD current and upcoming competition.
2. EQ2 had a brand name to help it along. VG is just some generic MMORPG sitting on a shelf. That means a LOT more work to market it
3. EQ2 was not near in as bad a shape as VG is now.
Basically I see VG needing a LOT of time and a LOT of $$ pouring into it just to take a gamble. It's no kind of foregone conclusion that a huge injection of cash is going to just magically bring in new players.
At least I hope it was.
If you want to see what this will mean, log into MxO. Want their MxO takeover in a nutshell?
1. They consolidated already laggy servers by half.
2. They created a CU which just screwed the game further.
3. They fired 99% of the design team.
4. Their new content? "Relive the storylines of the past". Yeah, re-rack the stuff WB built.
Now the game is on life support with about 3 employees. The upside is the dev-to-player ratio is 1-1.
Now if you hope that VG will be "revamped".. you can go to the SWG forums to hear how good that all worked out. shayde, have you even tried vg?
At least I hope it was.
If you want to see what this will mean, log into MxO. Want their MxO takeover in a nutshell?
1. They consolidated already laggy servers by half.
2. They created a CU which just screwed the game further.
3. They fired 99% of the design team.
4. Their new content? "Relive the storylines of the past". Yeah, re-rack the stuff WB built.
Now the game is on life support with about 3 employees. The upside is the dev-to-player ratio is 1-1.
Now if you hope that VG will be "revamped".. you can go to the SWG forums to hear how good that all worked out. shayde, have you even tried vg?
Yep.
But hey... that really doesn't matter now does it. The discussion was all about how $OE can screw up a game, and I've lived through THAT twice on SWG and once on MxO. I was actually looking forward to this game until the taint of $OE got all over it. I gave it a shot anyway, and now am kinda bummed that this failed so badly. It had some complex ideas that MMO's SHOULD be looking towards, but sadly aren't.
I wouldn't be suprised if VG is the last game with complex crafting or player housing. Due to the way this played out so badly, most of the designers of other games will look at VG's failure as "too complex and high end" and will not try to raise the bar. They won't bother to make the game we all REALLY want to see because they saw VG fail. They won't look at the mismanagment, or the shoddy rollout, or all the real reasons it failed, they'll look at the game itself and say "They just don't want complicated".
And for that, we all lose.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
At least I hope it was.
If you want to see what this will mean, log into MxO. Want their MxO takeover in a nutshell?
1. They consolidated already laggy servers by half.
2. They created a CU which just screwed the game further.
3. They fired 99% of the design team.
4. Their new content? "Relive the storylines of the past". Yeah, re-rack the stuff WB built.
Now the game is on life support with about 3 employees. The upside is the dev-to-player ratio is 1-1.
Now if you hope that VG will be "revamped".. you can go to the SWG forums to hear how good that all worked out. shayde, have you even tried vg?
Yep.
But hey... that really doesn't matter now does it. The discussion was all about how $OE can screw up a game, and I've lived through THAT twice on SWG and once on MxO. I was actually looking forward to this game until the taint of $OE got all over it. I gave it a shot anyway, and now am kinda bummed that this failed so badly. It had some complex ideas that MMO's SHOULD be looking towards, but sadly aren't.
I wouldn't be suprised if VG is the last game with complex crafting or player housing. Due to the way this played out so badly, most of the designers of other games will look at VG's failure as "too complex and high end" and will not try to raise the bar. They won't bother to make the game we all REALLY want to see because they saw VG fail. They won't look at the mismanagment, or the shoddy rollout, or all the real reasons it failed, they'll look at the game itself and say "They just don't want complicated".
And for that, we all lose. Then lets heartily support VG and save the genre!!!
I wouldn't be suprised if VG is the last game with complex crafting or player housing.
It wouldnt suprise me either,but to me it would be because i expect dev teams to draw the wrong conclusion from MMO history almost every time.Its extremely rare they ever manage to draw the right one, hence why the games all have such poor showings in acquired and retained customer bases.AND why the vast majority of MMOs all feel the same.
Complex crafting and housing did little to nothing to put VG in the shapes its in.VG was mangled the very day a certain DEV decided to make yet another of his games, that bascially embraced all the same old mistakes hes clung to all along.
The MMO genre isn't going to live and die by Vanguard, just as it's not going to always be looking to WoW for ideas. The games that will ultimately survive are the ones that carve out their own identities.
If anything, we should look to VG's launch as a cautionary tale of what NOT to do. They had the money. They had the time, and the backing of a major company in order to design the game the way they saw fit. Instead of sticking to their original ideas, they went back again and again and again to redesign things and ended up with a game that tries to appeal to everyone while appealing to very few.
Perhaps if they'd stuck to a coherent Vision rather than trying to be everything to everyone, they might be in better shape now.
Alas I too fear so and THAT is the biggest and most unforgivable crime of Sigil and Brad IMO! The damage their may have brought on complex MMOs!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
The MMO genre isn't going to live and die by Vanguard, just as it's not going to always be looking to WoW for ideas. The games that will ultimately survive are the ones that carve out their own identities.
If anything, we should look to VG's launch as a cautionary tale of what NOT to do. They had the money. They had the time, and the backing of a major company in order to design the game the way they saw fit. Instead of sticking to their original ideas, they went back again and again and again to redesign things and ended up with a game that tries to appeal to everyone while appealing to very few.
Perhaps if they'd stuck to a coherent Vision rather than trying to be everything to everyone, they might be in better shape now.
Exactly! People who have never tried VG still believe that the game was designed for hardcore players yet there is nothing hardcore about it. No corpse runs required, instant-porting or multiple means of transportation to travel just about anywhere in game in 15-20 minutes, huge assortment of quests that guide you along a path of least resistance, little to zero downtime during combat, and FAST level progression. Where is the hardcore that is supposedly ruining the game?
It was hyped for one target crowd, built for another and hasn't been a hit with either.
The MMO genre isn't going to live and die by Vanguard, just as it's not going to always be looking to WoW for ideas. The games that will ultimately survive are the ones that carve out their own identities.
If anything, we should look to VG's launch as a cautionary tale of what NOT to do. They had the money. They had the time, and the backing of a major company in order to design the game the way they saw fit. Instead of sticking to their original ideas, they went back again and again and again to redesign things and ended up with a game that tries to appeal to everyone while appealing to very few.
Perhaps if they'd stuck to a coherent Vision rather than trying to be everything to everyone, they might be in better shape now.
Exactly! People who have never tried VG still believe that the game was designed for hardcore players yet there is nothing hardcore about it. No corpse runs required, instant-porting or multiple means of transportation to travel just about anywhere in game in 15-20 minutes, huge assortment of quests that guide you along a path of least resistance, little to zero downtime during combat, and FAST level progression. Where is the hardcore that is supposedly ruining the game?
It was hyped for one target crowd, built for another and hasn't been a hit with either.
So i dont have to go collect my tombstone becouse no corpse run is required? Did you play this game? Fast lvl progression? Again did you play this game?