Originally posted by Hoobley Originally posted by xpowderx
Buddhism is a bad example. Buddhists do not worship "the Buddha". In fact "The Buddha" told people not to follow him. The 'worship' of Buddha images is very commonplace. The rule of thumb within Buddhism is "If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him." Buddha was Very specific on NOT worshipping him. What you Believe is worship is quiet contemplation with an imagery of Buddha infront of you. This is in no way worshipping. In the same manner as looking at an image of your late grandfather or mother or whatever else.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW... It all sucked.
The main reason I as an aetheist care about religion is that my life is often adversely affected by the policies of the Governments around the world who are overwhelmingly acting from their religious standpoints.
The fact that the words "under God" were added to the words "one nation indivisible" in the US pretty much spells it out.
Aetheists around the globe are hostage to theist ideals at every turn. Even in (and often especially in) nations that claim to be secular.
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
This is where I think it's smart to assume the existance of a god. Because when it comes to Metaphysics it's in my opinion the best way to solve problems posed here.
I actually tried up until here...
Allow me to say "HAH!"
HAH!
Yeah, blaming the situation on God (God did it! It wasn't me!) sure is the best way to solve a problem.
Metaphysics is about the origin of reality, the nature of it. It's not about reality itself, it's about how reality can exist.
But obviously I am ignorant. How could I have missed that I was the one that created the very fabric of existance? Obviously it is me that even allows things to exist! It is I that allows the very existance of space and time! It is me that causes causality! It is me who has shaped the possibility of free will. Or maybe it is me who determines the fate of the universe!
Stupid of me to blame matters as these on god. Should have known it was me all along.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
The main reason I as an aetheist care about religion is that my life is often adversely affected by the policies of the Governments around the world who are overwhelmingly acting from their religious standpoints. The fact that the words "under God" were added to the words "one nation indivisible" in the US pretty much spells it out. Aetheists around the globe are hostage to theist ideals at every turn. Even in (and often especially in) nations that claim to be secular.
I will say a prayer for you!!
Bring back the inquisition I say!!! ....... Yes, Yes.... Those non-believing heathens shall pay for disgracing our country!! YES YES>>> Bring it back!!!!
The main reason I as an aetheist care about religion is that my life is often adversely affected by the policies of the Governments around the world who are overwhelmingly acting from their religious standpoints. The fact that the words "under God" were added to the words "one nation indivisible" in the US pretty much spells it out. Aetheists around the globe are hostage to theist ideals at every turn. Even in (and often especially in) nations that claim to be secular.
I will say a prayer for you!!
Bring back the inquisition I say!!! ....... Yes, Yes.... Those non-believing heathens shall pay for disgracing our country!! YES YES>>> Bring it back!!!!
Any omniscient being who cares enough to condemn me to an eternity of torment for having independant thought and the inteligence to question things based on logic, reason and balance of probability has too much time on his or her hands.
"God is at best, an under-achiever" Woody Allen.
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Is religion good? You could probably answer this by asking yourself if you rather civilization go back to the dark ages when the church ruled with an iron fist and introduced their people to their forced religious practices and beliefs-- witch hunts, flat earth, heretical punishment, illegal to think for yourself, no women rights, torture for the non believers, suppression of humane rights, inquisitions, no individual freedom or rights, forcing children into crusader armies against other nations, etc, etc, etc, etc. I could go on with several pages. And if it wasn't for the freethinking atheists religion would have never EVOLVED out of the dark ages as is blatantly obvious by chuch's abadonment of ancient policies and beliefs such as what atheists fought against that the church endorsed such as slavery (yes this is supported in the bible) and a flat earth among hundreds of other things that science has proven wrong. If it wasn't for freethinkers, we would still be in the dark ages under religious rule and I think even christians and other religions should be glad they have democracy, human rights, freedom of choice, freedom of religion, freedom from not being hunted down and tortured, freedom to think, freedom from inquisitions, etc, etc. I find it amazing that the church believes they are responsible for civilizations advancement, wealth, and peace today. Wow, all the things the church doesn't want you to know. What's interesting is how the church is perfect example of evolution - adapting, changing and surviving- so not even the church is immune from that concept they hate so much .
Is religion good? You could probably answer this by asking yourself if you rather civilization go back to the dark ages when the church ruled with an iron fist and introduced their people to their forced religious practices and beliefs-- witch hunts, flat earth, heretical punishment, illegal to think for yourself, no women rights, torture for the non believers, suppression of humane rights, inquisitions, no individual freedom or rights, forcing children into crusader armies against other nations, etc, etc, etc, etc. I could go on with several pages. And if it wasn't for the freethinking atheists religion would have never EVOLVED out of the dark ages as is blatantly obvious by chuch's abadonment of ancient policies and beliefs such as what atheists fought against that the church endorsed such as slavery (yes this is supported in the bible) and a flat earth among hundreds of other things that science has proven wrong. If it wasn't for freethinkers, we would still be in the dark ages under religious rule and I think even christians and other religions should be glad they have democracy, human rights, freedom of choice, freedom of religion, freedom from not being hunted down and tortured, freedom to think, freedom from inquisitions, etc, etc. I find it amazing that the church believes they are responsible for civilizations advancement, wealth, and peace today. Wow, all the things the church doesn't want you to know. What's interesting is how the church is perfect example of evolution - adapting, changing and surviving- so not even the church is immune from that concept they hate so much .
You're messing up your definitions.
Church = Catholic Christian Religion.
Religion = Believing in a god.
Just because one religion screwed up in one period of time does not mean that all religions will screw up in all periods of time.
That's a major issue around religious debates. It's never about religion itself. It's always about a specific religion.
Religion is only believing in god. Nothing more.
Free thinking has no relation to religion at all. Great philosophers like Plato were religious. The very man who came up with the concept of free will ( augustinus I believe ) was religious.
Religion and Freedom are totally seperate concepts. A religion wich embraces freedom can exist. If you believe in a god who's highest virtue is freedom then you're a religious person and free thinker at the same time.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Of all the issues that arise with this type of discussion, for me, the idea that if you don't believe in and fear god, you can't tell right from wrong scares me the most.
There are people who don't have a conscience, no empathy, no feelings if you will. Sociopaths. A lot of them do lead productive lives, but if and when some of them commit crimes, they often commit cruel, horrible, "inhumane" crimes.
When a religious person tells me that without their religion they can't tell right from wrong, I wonder if they are that kind of person. Why else would they think that people who aren't religious wouldn't have an inherited knowledge of right and wrong.
As human beings, we have a conscience, we are born with the ability to have empathy - not just feeling sympathy for other people's situations, but actually also being able to "experience" emotionally their story when they tell it to us. Or Hollywood would be out of business. Even violent actionfilms usually are driven by the empathy we have for an underdog or someone or something needing to be rescued.
Other species have evolved in different ways, with different morals, if you will. A female cat will hide her young, because a male cat who hasn't fathered her kittens will kill them if he comes across them. He does this not out of cruelty, but because cats are solitary animals, and this gives him the chance to father the next kittens the female will have. Us humans have evolved to base our survival by working together in groups and communities, so for us that sort of thing would seem unthinkable and cruel. We are a species that have evolved to have so much sympathy and empathy with each other that a crime committed to any of us feels as if it concerns all of us.
That is who we are as a species.
I see this as an evolution kind of thing - the humans who worked together are the ones who excelled at surviving, and we are their offspring and have inherited those traits.
If someone else choose to see it as some divine force having given us all this consience, I don't agree, but I have no problem respecting their belief.
But to claim that we don't have this conscience at all scares me. That we are unable to tell right from wrong unless someone else is micromanaging and threatening to punish us. I really wonder about those people.
I would like to think that most individuals who express that have just been indoctrinated to think that way, and haven't really questioned if this is what they really think of their fellow human beings.
I disagree. Religion is the organisation that is formed around said god worship. You can believe in a god and not subject yourself to the same belief structure as other followers.
Judging by some of the posts in this thread, a lot of atheists care about religion because it gives them a chance to feel superior to others based on their view of religion which appears to come from a limited historical overview and media reports of religious whakos (millions of reasonable, sane religious people isn't news).
I can certainly understand why atheists or for that matter anyone of non-christian religons would be upset by the some of the things outlined in the OP's video. In fact a lot of Christians in America should be bothered about that too really, and probably are. If you set the precedent of allowing religious or any other morals into a country's laws, you could just as easily be allowing the government to persecute you for your morals or force all kinds of alternative morals on you somewhere further down the line. That's not so much an issue of religion, but one of politics.
I disagree. Religion is the organisation that is formed around said god worship. You can believe in a god and not subject yourself to the same belief structure as other followers. Religion is not partial to a god, goddesses, deity nor a unknowing force. That is a big misconception. Religion is any group of people that teaches a belief system based on faith. This can be real or not real. This includes Scientologists,Atheism(Lack of belief) Buddhism,Evolutionists, or even a group in business. Those are examples of non deity forms of religion.
Regardless of bias I would recommend knowing what religion is before telling us about it.
Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a: the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
the US of A is a real messed up place right now and i dont care about religion not one bit but i will say this (quoted from some internet video) your religion is your rock just dont thou it at me.
Is religion good? You could probably answer this by asking yourself if you rather civilization go back to the dark ages when the church ruled with an iron fist and introduced their people to their forced religious practices and beliefs-- witch hunts, flat earth, heretical punishment, illegal to think for yourself, no women rights, torture for the non believers, suppression of humane rights, inquisitions, no individual freedom or rights, forcing children into crusader armies against other nations, etc, etc, etc, etc. I could go on with several pages. And if it wasn't for the freethinking atheists religion would have never EVOLVED out of the dark ages as is blatantly obvious by chuch's abadonment of ancient policies and beliefs such as what atheists fought against that the church endorsed such as slavery (yes this is supported in the bible) and a flat earth among hundreds of other things that science has proven wrong. If it wasn't for freethinkers, we would still be in the dark ages under religious rule and I think even christians and other religions should be glad they have democracy, human rights, freedom of choice, freedom of religion, freedom from not being hunted down and tortured, freedom to think, freedom from inquisitions, etc, etc. I find it amazing that the church believes they are responsible for civilizations advancement, wealth, and peace today. Wow, all the things the church doesn't want you to know. What's interesting is how the church is perfect example of evolution - adapting, changing and surviving- so not even the church is immune from that concept they hate so much .
You're messing up your definitions.
Church = Catholic Christian Religion.
Religion = Believing in a god.
Just because one religion screwed up in one period of time does not mean that all religions will screw up in all periods of time. Because as I said, they evolved with the times because you can't suppress nature forever!! Natural laws > religious laws, church laws, or whatever you want to call it.
That's a major issue around religious debates. It's never about religion itself. It's always about a specific religion. Religion is man made so what followed from man's arrogance and ignorance is thousands of years of bloodshed.
Religion is only believing in god. Nothing more. Hmm, its also following the beliefs and customs of that religion too.
Free thinking has no relation to religion at all. Great philosophers like Plato were religious. The very man who came up with the concept of free will ( augustinus I believe ) was religious. I didn't say there was a relation. Free thinkers are naturally curious and will question such practices as religion, politics, etc. And yes, lots of people who thought for themselves were killed or forced to kill themselves especially during the dark ages. And yes, muslims today is what the church was for 1700 or more years and eventually the other religions will evolve as more and more of those people reject the old practices.
Religion and Freedom are totally seperate concepts. A religion wich embraces freedom can exist. If you believe in a god who's highest virtue is freedom then you're a religious person and free thinker at the same time. Depneds on the religion and the times. If the majority of public want it, and the religion needs to embrace it to survive, then the religion will evolve and they will exist together. If religion is in full control, they will not let people be free as history shows.
As many have said, I would not care about religion if religious people were indeed religious all to themself, but lets face it, with the facts at hand, they rarely are.
Worldly decision about pretty much anything should at least be based on logic if not fact and science, when trying to rule the world according to an by all probability, made up dogma that makes little to no sense then yes, you are out of here.
Personally I think it should be legal to cut the throat of the damn bastards ringing my doorbell with an agende to make me part of their insane cults.
Allthough I am not sure if I should feel pity or disgust for the poor sods.
Religion IS the root of all evil, if not per say then at least the way it is used by unscrupulous, and hardly religious, people to control and put fear into our hearts.
I say make it illegal to publicly speak about, condone, promote or display your religious beliefs.
It is to powerful a tool to be allowed to be used by anyone against others.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, I wouldn't trust myself so blindly like that,
that's just foolish.
if you cant trust your-self then how can you posably trust a higher power?
thats the kind of thing that starts wars, people blindly trusting in god (or the people that represent god)
the rep of god says, god says go kill those that a slitly different, so those poeple go and kill those slitly different people, over the word of the represenative of "god".
to me there is nothing that proves god exists, god is just a theorie, one that I dislike and reject.
do you really want god to exist? one being that controls all, predetermins your fate, know everything you do before you do it.
that seems kinda creepy to me, and very unapealing.
Also, I wouldn't trust myself so blindly like that,
that's just foolish.
if you cant trust your-self then how can you posably trust a higher power?
thats the kind of thing that starts wars, people blindly trusting in god (or the people that represent god)
the rep of god says, god says go kill those that a slitly different, so those poeple go and kill those slitly different people, over the word of the represenative of "god".
to me there is nothing that proves god exists, god is just a theorie, one that I dislike and reject.
do you really want god to exist? one being that controls all, predetermins your fate, know everything you do before you do it.
that seems kinda creepy to me, and very unapealing.
Well, according to Christians, God gave us all free will to decide whether or not to accept him. These same people say God is omniscient. While I see a blatant contradiction between free will and omniscience, most people don't seem to have a problem with it.
And what really bugs me is how egotistical and self-centered God is. He creates a whole race for the purpose of worshipping him? For a being to have attained such a high level of knowledge and enlightenment, he sure has some tyrannical motives.
If a higher power does exist, I sure as hell don't think he's as big of a douche bag as people make him out to be.
Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life. Open my eyes and blind me with your light and your lies.
if you cant trust your-self then how can you posably trust a higher power?
thats the kind of thing that starts wars, people blindly trusting in god (or the people that represent god)
the rep of god says, god says go kill those that a slitly different, so those poeple go and kill those slitly different people, over the word of the represenative of "god".
to me there is nothing that proves god exists, god is just a theorie, one that I dislike and reject.
do you really want god to exist? one being that controls all, predetermins your fate, know everything you do before you do it.
that seems kinda creepy to me, and very unapealing.
Well, according to Christians, God gave us all free will to decide whether or not to accept him. These same people say God is omniscient. While I see a blatant contradiction between free will and omniscience, most people don't seem to have a problem with it.
If you had a choice to make, say door A or door B, but you weren't sure which door to take. But an Omniscient Being (God) already knew which choice you would make. Would it be pre-destination? It becomes relative at this point.
To the God it would be pre-destination.
But to you it would be a choice. It would be "free will"
And what really bugs me is how egotistical and self-centered God is. He creates a whole race for the purpose of worshipping him? For a being to have attained such a high level of knowledge and enlightenment, he sure has some tyrannical motives.
God demands we worship him. So to worship we do what pleases him. He ask that we love our brother as our self and not to steal, kill, or lie to one another. IE: God demands we love either other. He sorta turns the tables by saying to worship me you must first love each other. How can you love a god you cannont see, when you hate your brother you can see.
If a higher power does exist, I sure as hell don't think he's as big of a douche bag as people make him out to be.
Well, according to Christians, God gave us all free will to decide whether or not to accept him. These same people say God is omniscient. While I see a blatant contradiction between free will and omniscience, most people don't seem to have a problem with it.
If you had a choice to make, say door A or door B, but you weren't sure which door to take. But an Omniscient Being (God) already knew which choice you would make. Would it be pre-destination? It becomes relative at this point.
To the God it would be pre-destination.
But to you it would be a choice. It would be "free will"
So let's assume the Biblical version of God indeed exists: This means that God knows whether or not I will believe in him before I'm even aware of my own existence. On this same train of thought, why would God create me if he knew I would suffer in hell for all eternity? It seems a bit sadistic to me. Of course, I would have the perception of free will in my decision to turn away from God or accept him, but it doesn't change the fact that the results of my actions are pre-determined if an omniscient being actually is watching over me.
And what really bugs me is how egotistical and self-centered God is. He creates a whole race for the purpose of worshipping him? For a being to have attained such a high level of knowledge and enlightenment, he sure has some tyrannical motives.
God demands we worship him. So to worship we do what pleases him. He ask that we love our brother as our self and not to steal, kill, or lie to one another. IE: God demands we love either other. He sorta turns the tables by saying to worship me you must first love each other. How can you love a god you cannont see, when you hate your brother you can see.
But for a God to be demanding worship, either directly or indirectly, is egotistical.
If a higher power does exist, I sure as hell don't think he's as big of a douche bag as people make him out to be.
I agree
Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life. Open my eyes and blind me with your light and your lies.
if you cant trust your-self then how can you posably trust a higher power?
thats the kind of thing that starts wars, people blindly trusting in god (or the people that represent god)
the rep of god says, god says go kill those that a slitly different, so those poeple go and kill those slitly different people, over the word of the represenative of "god".
to me there is nothing that proves god exists, god is just a theorie, one that I dislike and reject.
do you really want god to exist? one being that controls all, predetermins your fate, know everything you do before you do it.
that seems kinda creepy to me, and very unapealing.
Well, according to Christians, God gave us all free will to decide whether or not to accept him. These same people say God is omniscient. While I see a blatant contradiction between free will and omniscience, most people don't seem to have a problem with it.
If you had a choice to make, say door A or door B, but you weren't sure which door to take. But an Omniscient Being (God) already knew which choice you would make. Would it be pre-destination? It becomes relative at this point.
To the God it would be pre-destination.
But to you it would be a choice. It would be "free will"
I believe in a divine creator from my own personal experience and nothing has been preached to me and so I don't believe in a God that any religion believes. I believe Omniscience and free will can coincide and I will give you my metaphor:
Imagine The Divine Creator is a Divine Programmer (pretty much the same thing with different words). God programmed a game world similar to an MMORPG and programmed in every single possible thing that is possible in the universe (just like they do in video games). Now normal game programmers like for WoW know every possible thing that can happen in their game world and they let a bunch of players play that game and those players get to play within the rules/laws of that game world and have free will to do whatever within those rules/laws of the game world.
God did pretty much that except God made a universe that is an infinite times more vast than any game world that exists today seeing as the world we actually live in is constantly evolving...call it complex AI
So God knows everthing that can happen within his universe and the people do what they will withing God's universe. God can know every single thing we can do in the future as well because God knows every single possible thing I could do in the future because God programmed the universe. I could get up from my seat and take a step forward, left, right, or backwards, and God knows every single possibility and therefore Gods knows my future and yet I have free will to choose which path (within God's programmed universe) I want.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
So Alex, I'm a bit confused about some parts of your metaphor:
When I have the choice to step left, right, forward, or backward, does God know which way I'm going to step, or just know every possible outcome? If he just designed this system for us to do what we want, wouldn't that be more of a Deist God rather than a Christian God?
Hmm, I don't think I'm making myself clear. Does God ultimately know the outcome of our actions? Hell, I'll just simplify it to one question: According to your beliefs about God, does he know whether or not I will believe in him when I take my final breath?
Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life. Open my eyes and blind me with your light and your lies.
Wow im sorry but thats a load of bull, many religions like wiccan, buddhism and etc have to do with practicing things like meditation and enlightenment by connection to the universe and certain pathways in your soul, it has nothing to do with worship you really need to get your facts straight and do some more search. And there is a differance in respecting the gods goddesses or god then worshiping. Some religions are completely free because you choose how to grow you choose if you want to grow and understand things in the divine, you choose to discipline yourself to do whats neccsary to evolve.
And one last thing certain religions dont interfere they wait for the person to come to them and say teach me.
Is religion good? You could probably answer this by asking yourself if you rather civilization go back to the dark ages when the church ruled with an iron fist and introduced their people to their forced religious practices and beliefs-- witch hunts, flat earth, heretical punishment, illegal to think for yourself, no women rights, torture for the non believers, suppression of humane rights, inquisitions, no individual freedom or rights, forcing children into crusader armies against other nations, etc, etc, etc, etc. I could go on with several pages. And if it wasn't for the freethinking atheists religion would have never EVOLVED out of the dark ages as is blatantly obvious by chuch's abadonment of ancient policies and beliefs such as what atheists fought against that the church endorsed such as slavery (yes this is supported in the bible) and a flat earth among hundreds of other things that science has proven wrong. If it wasn't for freethinkers, we would still be in the dark ages under religious rule and I think even christians and other religions should be glad they have democracy, human rights, freedom of choice, freedom of religion, freedom from not being hunted down and tortured, freedom to think, freedom from inquisitions, etc, etc. I find it amazing that the church believes they are responsible for civilizations advancement, wealth, and peace today. Wow, all the things the church doesn't want you to know. What's interesting is how the church is perfect example of evolution - adapting, changing and surviving- so not even the church is immune from that concept they hate so much .
You're messing up your definitions.
Church = Catholic Christian Religion.
Religion = Believing in a god.
Just because one religion screwed up in one period of time does not mean that all religions will screw up in all periods of time. Because as I said, they evolved with the times because you can't suppress nature forever!! Natural laws > religious laws, church laws, or whatever you want to call it.
Again you're making assumptions based on nothing at all. Who says natural laws and religious laws are the opposite? You're basing your entire view of believing in a god on a single religion in a single period of time. That's a gross generalisation.
That's a major issue around religious debates. It's never about religion itself. It's always about a specific religion. Religion is man made so what followed from man's arrogance and ignorance is thousands of years of bloodshed.
So everything man made follows with thousands of years of bloodshed caused by man's arrogance and ignorance. That's what you're saying here. You say: Religion is man made. Then you follow up with so, wich signals a cause and effect relationship. So when A -> B where A is man made and B is thousands of years of bloodshed caused by man's arrogance and ignorance. Kinda pessimistic don't you think?
Religion is only believing in god. Nothing more. Hmm, its also following the beliefs and customs of that religion too.
True, but it's nowhere set in stone what exactly those beliefs and customs have to be. A religion could exist with sadistical beliefs and customs that forced its member to kill non-believers. But a religion could also exist with peacefull beliefs and customs wich praise generosity and freedom of mind by its members. Wether an organisation is religious or not says nothing about it's points of view. Judging it by the very fact it's religious is just as wrong as denying atheists a place in public offices.
Free thinking has no relation to religion at all. Great philosophers like Plato were religious. The very man who came up with the concept of free will ( augustinus I believe ) was religious. I didn't say there was a relation. Free thinkers are naturally curious and will question such practices as religion, politics, etc. And yes, lots of people who thought for themselves were killed or forced to kill themselves especially during the dark ages. And yes, muslims today is what the church was for 1700 or more years and eventually the other religions will evolve as more and more of those people reject the old practices.
Do you honestly believe that the entire inquisition in the dark ages is what religion is based off? The inquisition wasn't about anything religious. It was about politics. Keeping the power of the church intact. And yes, that was wrong. VERY wrong. But it doesn't mean that every single religion wishes to kill non-believers. It does not mean that everyone who deems the existance of a god plausible is an inquisitor. Hitler was just like the inquisition. WWII killed millions of people. Yet hitler wasn't religious, on the contrary. He wanted to wipe a religion away from the face of the earth. Murdering people who don't agree with you is not something that happens under religions. It's something that happens under dictators. During the dark ages the church was a dictator.
Religion and Freedom are totally seperate concepts. A religion wich embraces freedom can exist. If you believe in a god who's highest virtue is freedom then you're a religious person and free thinker at the same time. Depneds on the religion and the times. If the majority of public want it, and the religion needs to embrace it to survive, then the religion will evolve and they will exist together. If religion is in full control, they will not let people be free as history shows.
Again nothing to do with religions in particular. If any organisation is in total control then they will limit people. It's not how religion works, it's how people work. In the Sovjet Union during the communistic rule of stalin there was nobody that was free. You were a communist or you were dead. Yet communism despises religion. Where communism is all about materialism religion is about the spiritual. Everything you blame religion for is true in case of the dark ages, I won't deny that. But it's not caused by religion. It's caused by humans.
If religion hadn't existed then Europe may have went through a communistic rule during the dark ages leading to the exact same things. Free thinkers being oppressed and killed etc.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
As many have said, I would not care about religion if religious people were indeed religious all to themself, but lets face it, with the facts at hand, they rarely are. Worldly decision about pretty much anything should at least be based on logic if not fact and science, when trying to rule the world according to an by all probability, made up dogma that makes little to no sense then yes, you are out of here. Personally I think it should be legal to cut the throat of the damn bastards ringing my doorbell with an agende to make me part of their insane cults. Allthough I am not sure if I should feel pity or disgust for the poor sods. Religion IS the root of all evil, if not per say then at least the way it is used by unscrupulous, and hardly religious, people to control and put fear into our hearts. I say make it illegal to publicly speak about, condone, promote or display your religious beliefs. It is to powerful a tool to be allowed to be used by anyone against others.
Stalin couldn't have said it better. Then he proceed to kill millions because they used their freedom to believe in god. By far more people have been killed to stop the belief of god than have been killed to promote any religion. I would say lack of Regilion is the root of evil and I would agree the misuse of Regilion is also a very big issue.
So Alex, I'm a bit confused about some parts of your metaphor:
When I have the choice to step left, right, forward, or backward, does God know which way I'm going to step, or just know every possible outcome?
My metaphor was for every possible outcome.
If he just designed this system for us to do what we want, wouldn't that be more of a Deist God rather than a Christian God?
Sure. Deism is about the belief of God because of nature and reason alone, fine with me. Chrisitianity say God is omniscient, but I have never heard them give my metaphor and my metaphor is the only example I can think of where God can be omniscient and still allow complete free will. Christianity is free to adopt my belief lol.
Hmm, I don't think I'm making myself clear. Does God ultimately know the outcome of our actions? Hell, I'll just simplify it to one question: According to your beliefs about God, does he know whether or not I will believe in him when I take my final breath?
I believe God knows of that exact outcome for sure but as far as it happening is for you to decide. This doesn't make God less powerful, it's only what God wants.
I don't believe in Hell though. There definately is a possibility of God and that possibility is there because we exist and the universe exists. As far as Satan is concerned, well there is absolutely no evidence or anything within reason to believe in Satan. I also don't think God is egostistical (trait that doesn't belong on the Creator Of Everything) so I don't think God really cares that you believe or don't believe in him in your final breath.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Comments
The 'worship' of Buddha images is very commonplace.
The rule of thumb within Buddhism is "If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him."
Buddha was Very specific on NOT worshipping him.
What you Believe is worship is quiet contemplation with an imagery of Buddha infront of you.
This is in no way worshipping. In the same manner as looking at an image of your late grandfather or mother or whatever else.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.
The main reason I as an aetheist care about religion is that my life is often adversely affected by the policies of the Governments around the world who are overwhelmingly acting from their religious standpoints.
The fact that the words "under God" were added to the words "one nation indivisible" in the US pretty much spells it out.
Aetheists around the globe are hostage to theist ideals at every turn. Even in (and often especially in) nations that claim to be secular.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Allow me to say "HAH!"
HAH!
Yeah, blaming the situation on God (God did it! It wasn't me!) sure is the best way to solve a problem.
That's called ignorance my friend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics
Metaphysics is about the origin of reality, the nature of it. It's not about reality itself, it's about how reality can exist.
But obviously I am ignorant. How could I have missed that I was the one that created the very fabric of existance? Obviously it is me that even allows things to exist! It is I that allows the very existance of space and time! It is me that causes causality! It is me who has shaped the possibility of free will. Or maybe it is me who determines the fate of the universe!
Stupid of me to blame matters as these on god. Should have known it was me all along.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Bring back the inquisition I say!!! ....... Yes, Yes.... Those non-believing heathens shall pay for disgracing our country!! YES YES>>> Bring it back!!!!
Bring back the inquisition I say!!! ....... Yes, Yes.... Those non-believing heathens shall pay for disgracing our country!! YES YES>>> Bring it back!!!!
Any omniscient being who cares enough to condemn me to an eternity of torment for having independant thought and the inteligence to question things based on logic, reason and balance of probability has too much time on his or her hands.
"God is at best, an under-achiever" Woody Allen.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
You're messing up your definitions.
Church = Catholic Christian Religion.
Religion = Believing in a god.
Just because one religion screwed up in one period of time does not mean that all religions will screw up in all periods of time.
That's a major issue around religious debates. It's never about religion itself. It's always about a specific religion.
Religion is only believing in god. Nothing more.
Free thinking has no relation to religion at all. Great philosophers like Plato were religious. The very man who came up with the concept of free will ( augustinus I believe ) was religious.
Religion and Freedom are totally seperate concepts. A religion wich embraces freedom can exist. If you believe in a god who's highest virtue is freedom then you're a religious person and free thinker at the same time.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Of all the issues that arise with this type of discussion, for me, the idea that if you don't believe in and fear god, you can't tell right from wrong scares me the most.
There are people who don't have a conscience, no empathy, no feelings if you will. Sociopaths. A lot of them do lead productive lives, but if and when some of them commit crimes, they often commit cruel, horrible, "inhumane" crimes.
When a religious person tells me that without their religion they can't tell right from wrong, I wonder if they are that kind of person. Why else would they think that people who aren't religious wouldn't have an inherited knowledge of right and wrong.
As human beings, we have a conscience, we are born with the ability to have empathy - not just feeling sympathy for other people's situations, but actually also being able to "experience" emotionally their story when they tell it to us. Or Hollywood would be out of business. Even violent actionfilms usually are driven by the empathy we have for an underdog or someone or something needing to be rescued.
Other species have evolved in different ways, with different morals, if you will. A female cat will hide her young, because a male cat who hasn't fathered her kittens will kill them if he comes across them. He does this not out of cruelty, but because cats are solitary animals, and this gives him the chance to father the next kittens the female will have. Us humans have evolved to base our survival by working together in groups and communities, so for us that sort of thing would seem unthinkable and cruel. We are a species that have evolved to have so much sympathy and empathy with each other that a crime committed to any of us feels as if it concerns all of us.
That is who we are as a species.
I see this as an evolution kind of thing - the humans who worked together are the ones who excelled at surviving, and we are their offspring and have inherited those traits.
If someone else choose to see it as some divine force having given us all this consience, I don't agree, but I have no problem respecting their belief.
But to claim that we don't have this conscience at all scares me. That we are unable to tell right from wrong unless someone else is micromanaging and threatening to punish us. I really wonder about those people.
I would like to think that most individuals who express that have just been indoctrinated to think that way, and haven't really questioned if this is what they really think of their fellow human beings.
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Judging by some of the posts in this thread, a lot of atheists care about religion because it gives them a chance to feel superior to others based on their view of religion which appears to come from a limited historical overview and media reports of religious whakos (millions of reasonable, sane religious people isn't news).
I can certainly understand why atheists or for that matter anyone of non-christian religons would be upset by the some of the things outlined in the OP's video. In fact a lot of Christians in America should be bothered about that too really, and probably are. If you set the precedent of allowing religious or any other morals into a country's laws, you could just as easily be allowing the government to persecute you for your morals or force all kinds of alternative morals on you somewhere further down the line. That's not so much an issue of religion, but one of politics.
Regardless of bias I would recommend knowing what religion is before telling us about it.
Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation:
ri-'li-j&nFunction: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjective
Please take notice of Def part 3. and def part 4.
Tin Foil hats dont work.. its all a conspiracy
You're messing up your definitions.
Church = Catholic Christian Religion.
Religion = Believing in a god.
Just because one religion screwed up in one period of time does not mean that all religions will screw up in all periods of time. Because as I said, they evolved with the times because you can't suppress nature forever!! Natural laws > religious laws, church laws, or whatever you want to call it.
That's a major issue around religious debates. It's never about religion itself. It's always about a specific religion. Religion is man made so what followed from man's arrogance and ignorance is thousands of years of bloodshed.
Religion is only believing in god. Nothing more. Hmm, its also following the beliefs and customs of that religion too.
Free thinking has no relation to religion at all. Great philosophers like Plato were religious. The very man who came up with the concept of free will ( augustinus I believe ) was religious. I didn't say there was a relation. Free thinkers are naturally curious and will question such practices as religion, politics, etc. And yes, lots of people who thought for themselves were killed or forced to kill themselves especially during the dark ages. And yes, muslims today is what the church was for 1700 or more years and eventually the other religions will evolve as more and more of those people reject the old practices.
Religion and Freedom are totally seperate concepts. A religion wich embraces freedom can exist. If you believe in a god who's highest virtue is freedom then you're a religious person and free thinker at the same time. Depneds on the religion and the times. If the majority of public want it, and the religion needs to embrace it to survive, then the religion will evolve and they will exist together. If religion is in full control, they will not let people be free as history shows.
As many have said, I would not care about religion if religious people were indeed religious all to themself, but lets face it, with the facts at hand, they rarely are.
Worldly decision about pretty much anything should at least be based on logic if not fact and science, when trying to rule the world according to an by all probability, made up dogma that makes little to no sense then yes, you are out of here.
Personally I think it should be legal to cut the throat of the damn bastards ringing my doorbell with an agende to make me part of their insane cults.
Allthough I am not sure if I should feel pity or disgust for the poor sods.
Religion IS the root of all evil, if not per say then at least the way it is used by unscrupulous, and hardly religious, people to control and put fear into our hearts.
I say make it illegal to publicly speak about, condone, promote or display your religious beliefs.
It is to powerful a tool to be allowed to be used by anyone against others.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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thats the kind of thing that starts wars, people blindly trusting in god (or the people that represent god)
the rep of god says, god says go kill those that a slitly different, so those poeple go and kill those slitly different people, over the word of the represenative of "god".
to me there is nothing that proves god exists, god is just a theorie, one that I dislike and reject.
do you really want god to exist? one being that controls all, predetermins your fate, know everything you do before you do it.
that seems kinda creepy to me, and very unapealing.
Moo
thats the kind of thing that starts wars, people blindly trusting in god (or the people that represent god)
the rep of god says, god says go kill those that a slitly different, so those poeple go and kill those slitly different people, over the word of the represenative of "god".
to me there is nothing that proves god exists, god is just a theorie, one that I dislike and reject.
do you really want god to exist? one being that controls all, predetermins your fate, know everything you do before you do it.
that seems kinda creepy to me, and very unapealing.
Well, according to Christians, God gave us all free will to decide whether or not to accept him. These same people say God is omniscient. While I see a blatant contradiction between free will and omniscience, most people don't seem to have a problem with it.
And what really bugs me is how egotistical and self-centered God is. He creates a whole race for the purpose of worshipping him? For a being to have attained such a high level of knowledge and enlightenment, he sure has some tyrannical motives.
If a higher power does exist, I sure as hell don't think he's as big of a douche bag as people make him out to be.
Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life.
Open my eyes and blind me with your light
and your lies.
thats the kind of thing that starts wars, people blindly trusting in god (or the people that represent god)
the rep of god says, god says go kill those that a slitly different, so those poeple go and kill those slitly different people, over the word of the represenative of "god".
to me there is nothing that proves god exists, god is just a theorie, one that I dislike and reject.
do you really want god to exist? one being that controls all, predetermins your fate, know everything you do before you do it.
that seems kinda creepy to me, and very unapealing.
Well, according to Christians, God gave us all free will to decide whether or not to accept him. These same people say God is omniscient. While I see a blatant contradiction between free will and omniscience, most people don't seem to have a problem with it.
If you had a choice to make, say door A or door B, but you weren't sure which door to take. But an Omniscient Being (God) already knew which choice you would make. Would it be pre-destination? It becomes relative at this point.
To the God it would be pre-destination.
But to you it would be a choice. It would be "free will"
And what really bugs me is how egotistical and self-centered God is. He creates a whole race for the purpose of worshipping him? For a being to have attained such a high level of knowledge and enlightenment, he sure has some tyrannical motives.
God demands we worship him. So to worship we do what pleases him. He ask that we love our brother as our self and not to steal, kill, or lie to one another. IE: God demands we love either other. He sorta turns the tables by saying to worship me you must first love each other. How can you love a god you cannont see, when you hate your brother you can see.
If a higher power does exist, I sure as hell don't think he's as big of a douche bag as people make him out to be.
I agree
Well, according to Christians, God gave us all free will to decide whether or not to accept him. These same people say God is omniscient. While I see a blatant contradiction between free will and omniscience, most people don't seem to have a problem with it.
If you had a choice to make, say door A or door B, but you weren't sure which door to take. But an Omniscient Being (God) already knew which choice you would make. Would it be pre-destination? It becomes relative at this point.
To the God it would be pre-destination.
But to you it would be a choice. It would be "free will"
So let's assume the Biblical version of God indeed exists: This means that God knows whether or not I will believe in him before I'm even aware of my own existence. On this same train of thought, why would God create me if he knew I would suffer in hell for all eternity? It seems a bit sadistic to me. Of course, I would have the perception of free will in my decision to turn away from God or accept him, but it doesn't change the fact that the results of my actions are pre-determined if an omniscient being actually is watching over me.
And what really bugs me is how egotistical and self-centered God is. He creates a whole race for the purpose of worshipping him? For a being to have attained such a high level of knowledge and enlightenment, he sure has some tyrannical motives.
God demands we worship him. So to worship we do what pleases him. He ask that we love our brother as our self and not to steal, kill, or lie to one another. IE: God demands we love either other. He sorta turns the tables by saying to worship me you must first love each other. How can you love a god you cannont see, when you hate your brother you can see.
But for a God to be demanding worship, either directly or indirectly, is egotistical.
If a higher power does exist, I sure as hell don't think he's as big of a douche bag as people make him out to be.
I agree
Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life.
Open my eyes and blind me with your light
and your lies.
thats the kind of thing that starts wars, people blindly trusting in god (or the people that represent god)
the rep of god says, god says go kill those that a slitly different, so those poeple go and kill those slitly different people, over the word of the represenative of "god".
to me there is nothing that proves god exists, god is just a theorie, one that I dislike and reject.
do you really want god to exist? one being that controls all, predetermins your fate, know everything you do before you do it.
that seems kinda creepy to me, and very unapealing.
Well, according to Christians, God gave us all free will to decide whether or not to accept him. These same people say God is omniscient. While I see a blatant contradiction between free will and omniscience, most people don't seem to have a problem with it.
If you had a choice to make, say door A or door B, but you weren't sure which door to take. But an Omniscient Being (God) already knew which choice you would make. Would it be pre-destination? It becomes relative at this point.
To the God it would be pre-destination.
But to you it would be a choice. It would be "free will"
I believe in a divine creator from my own personal experience and nothing has been preached to me and so I don't believe in a God that any religion believes. I believe Omniscience and free will can coincide and I will give you my metaphor:
Imagine The Divine Creator is a Divine Programmer (pretty much the same thing with different words). God programmed a game world similar to an MMORPG and programmed in every single possible thing that is possible in the universe (just like they do in video games). Now normal game programmers like for WoW know every possible thing that can happen in their game world and they let a bunch of players play that game and those players get to play within the rules/laws of that game world and have free will to do whatever within those rules/laws of the game world.
God did pretty much that except God made a universe that is an infinite times more vast than any game world that exists today seeing as the world we actually live in is constantly evolving...call it complex AI
So God knows everthing that can happen within his universe and the people do what they will withing God's universe. God can know every single thing we can do in the future as well because God knows every single possible thing I could do in the future because God programmed the universe. I could get up from my seat and take a step forward, left, right, or backwards, and God knows every single possibility and therefore Gods knows my future and yet I have free will to choose which path (within God's programmed universe) I want.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
When I have the choice to step left, right, forward, or backward, does God know which way I'm going to step, or just know every possible outcome? If he just designed this system for us to do what we want, wouldn't that be more of a Deist God rather than a Christian God?
Hmm, I don't think I'm making myself clear. Does God ultimately know the outcome of our actions? Hell, I'll just simplify it to one question: According to your beliefs about God, does he know whether or not I will believe in him when I take my final breath?
Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life.
Open my eyes and blind me with your light
and your lies.
Wow im sorry but thats a load of bull, many religions like wiccan, buddhism and etc have to do with practicing things like meditation and enlightenment by connection to the universe and certain pathways in your soul, it has nothing to do with worship you really need to get your facts straight and do some more search. And there is a differance in respecting the gods goddesses or god then worshiping. Some religions are completely free because you choose how to grow you choose if you want to grow and understand things in the divine, you choose to discipline yourself to do whats neccsary to evolve.
And one last thing certain religions dont interfere they wait for the person to come to them and say teach me.
You're messing up your definitions.
Church = Catholic Christian Religion.
Religion = Believing in a god.
Just because one religion screwed up in one period of time does not mean that all religions will screw up in all periods of time. Because as I said, they evolved with the times because you can't suppress nature forever!! Natural laws > religious laws, church laws, or whatever you want to call it.
Again you're making assumptions based on nothing at all. Who says natural laws and religious laws are the opposite? You're basing your entire view of believing in a god on a single religion in a single period of time. That's a gross generalisation.
That's a major issue around religious debates. It's never about religion itself. It's always about a specific religion. Religion is man made so what followed from man's arrogance and ignorance is thousands of years of bloodshed.
So everything man made follows with thousands of years of bloodshed caused by man's arrogance and ignorance. That's what you're saying here. You say: Religion is man made. Then you follow up with so, wich signals a cause and effect relationship. So when A -> B where A is man made and B is thousands of years of bloodshed caused by man's arrogance and ignorance. Kinda pessimistic don't you think?
Religion is only believing in god. Nothing more. Hmm, its also following the beliefs and customs of that religion too.
True, but it's nowhere set in stone what exactly those beliefs and customs have to be. A religion could exist with sadistical beliefs and customs that forced its member to kill non-believers. But a religion could also exist with peacefull beliefs and customs wich praise generosity and freedom of mind by its members. Wether an organisation is religious or not says nothing about it's points of view. Judging it by the very fact it's religious is just as wrong as denying atheists a place in public offices.
Free thinking has no relation to religion at all. Great philosophers like Plato were religious. The very man who came up with the concept of free will ( augustinus I believe ) was religious. I didn't say there was a relation. Free thinkers are naturally curious and will question such practices as religion, politics, etc. And yes, lots of people who thought for themselves were killed or forced to kill themselves especially during the dark ages. And yes, muslims today is what the church was for 1700 or more years and eventually the other religions will evolve as more and more of those people reject the old practices.
Do you honestly believe that the entire inquisition in the dark ages is what religion is based off? The inquisition wasn't about anything religious. It was about politics. Keeping the power of the church intact. And yes, that was wrong. VERY wrong. But it doesn't mean that every single religion wishes to kill non-believers. It does not mean that everyone who deems the existance of a god plausible is an inquisitor. Hitler was just like the inquisition. WWII killed millions of people. Yet hitler wasn't religious, on the contrary. He wanted to wipe a religion away from the face of the earth. Murdering people who don't agree with you is not something that happens under religions. It's something that happens under dictators. During the dark ages the church was a dictator.
Religion and Freedom are totally seperate concepts. A religion wich embraces freedom can exist. If you believe in a god who's highest virtue is freedom then you're a religious person and free thinker at the same time. Depneds on the religion and the times. If the majority of public want it, and the religion needs to embrace it to survive, then the religion will evolve and they will exist together. If religion is in full control, they will not let people be free as history shows.
Again nothing to do with religions in particular. If any organisation is in total control then they will limit people. It's not how religion works, it's how people work. In the Sovjet Union during the communistic rule of stalin there was nobody that was free. You were a communist or you were dead. Yet communism despises religion. Where communism is all about materialism religion is about the spiritual. Everything you blame religion for is true in case of the dark ages, I won't deny that. But it's not caused by religion. It's caused by humans.
If religion hadn't existed then Europe may have went through a communistic rule during the dark ages leading to the exact same things. Free thinkers being oppressed and killed etc.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Stalin couldn't have said it better. Then he proceed to kill millions because they used their freedom to believe in god. By far more people have been killed to stop the belief of god than have been killed to promote any religion. I would say lack of Regilion is the root of evil and I would agree the misuse of Regilion is also a very big issue.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American