Originally posted by retrospectic Buying gold and botting help to ruin MMORPG economies. Players who can make money without playing the game will pay higher prices for goods.
And they get more money for goods that they sell. The 'ruin' that people point to is always just 'there's inflation, the numbers beside items are higher than I think they should be, the economy is ruined'. In any game where it's easy to make money later on (like WOW), there's going to be inflation, but that doesn't mean the economy is 'ruined'.
While that might seem good it actually ruins the economy. Players who are grinding a tradeskill cannot possibly buy the required tradeskill items from the AH.
So they use a gathering skill to gather the tradeskill items. Or if it's a game like WOW, skip the tradeskill entirely at low levels and just take 2 gathering skills, sell the goods, and have truckloads of cash.
Players who are trying to buy popular items will be forced to pay high prices for items that are not really worth that price.
What this really means is that you've arbitrarily decided that a particular number of gold coins is the set in stone 'worth' of an item forever, which doesn't mean anything. Items, especially nonessential items (imaginary video game items don't come remotely near being essential), have their value determined by what people are willing to pay for them.
Also, what does it matter if someone pays high prices for an item that they want if they also get high prices for items that they don't want? If they can make 12x as much selling stuff they gather, and items cost 10x as much as you think they should, they're actually coming out ahead.
Originally posted by Sramota And what type of RMT does EVE allow now again?
You can trade game time cards for ISK, which means you can pay $15 (or whatever the card costs) and give the code to someone in exchange for in-game money. This is supported and approved of by the developers, and if someone screws you on a trade the GMs will intervent.
What is the point of botting, buying gold, and cheating the game in general? The money is fake, the character is fake, the game will die (they all do eventually in some form). So then what is the purpose of cheating it, even if only for the time you are playing, to achieve equal or higher levels than the pure player?
Because some MMORPGS are made for losers and require a big time investment that ordinary(non high school kids) people can't put in.
Who is to say what is cheating anyway.. If you look at WoW and all the mods that people NEED to actually compete in PvE... you could consider mods cheating. I dont have a problem with people who buy gold, buy powerlevels, etc. I understand some people cant put in the amount of time they'd like to. Personally I like to level up myself w/o having some chinese person do it for me.
Cheats are for ppl that never win in a match or never get fame on there own.
They call a guy that is good but not good as them a noob. That is one thing i never understand, you got this guy that dont cheat and kicks butt until maybe fighting a cheater, and the cheater wins and calls him a noob hehehe them guys are losers.
Cheaters are the ones that will steal from you there also the ones that go to jail for fruad , There the ones that are allways boreed in the game .
There the ones that end up in real life in prison for some crime that has to do with cheating.
Cheaters are the nobody of the world , there like a rat in a sewer.
There the only NOOB even if they play a game for years there still a noob ,Because as soon as they stop cheating , they stop winning.
You cant breath better if you use something to push air in your lungs, Why because your are cheating to breath with a breathing machine.
Same as a cheater you cant get better untill you play for your self.
In my book cheater are scum that sits in the tolet when iam done useing it!
As far as buying gold goes, in my experience it's not the leet kiddies who're buying. It's the adults with limited time and some disposable income that don't want to grind.
I sold a couple thousand dollars worth of completely legit credits in pre-CU SWG during my time there. I knew just about every one of the hardcore players and their alts on my server, and only one hardcore player ever bought credits from me. The rest were all adults who otherwise kept to themselves. Lots and lots of military (the guy the bought my WoW account was also military).
Seems to me it's most often those with one RL advantage (disposable time) that rally the hardest against people using another RL advantage (RL income). As long as the in-game currency is earned legitimately I don't see the problem. It's simply a transfer of in-game wealth from players with excess time to players with excess RL income.
Seems to me it's most often those with one RL advantage (disposable time) that rally the hardest against people using another RL advantage (RL income). As long as the in-game currency is earned legitimately I don't see the problem. It's simply a transfer of in-game wealth from players with excess time to players with excess RL income.
I do not have a RL advantage (disposable time) and I do have enough income i could buy in-game currency if i chose to. I don't. I think anyone who does in an environment that expressly says 'not allowed' should be removed / banned from the environment.... if the game is structured to allow for it, then fine. but in most cases the secondary market is introduced by outside entities profiting from the game environment that they did not create.... leeching off of other peoples success.
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
Because most MMOs have massive design flaws, and people like to shortcut around them. If you design an MMO that is fun all the time, nobody will want to skip out on the fun.
I happen to think that WoW's level grind is one of the most enjoyable MMORPG grinds I've played. I believe more people bot in WoW to either make real money or because they have played the level experience once and don't want to put in the time to learn another class.
So basically people bot because it is boring after one or two runs. That is still bad practice.
The first time I leveled to cap was OK, because it was fresh and new. Subsequent levelings are mind-numbingly boring. Despite your claim that they are easy, the grind takes an obsessive number of hours. I just went to peons4hire website and they are offering 1-70 in 26 days. Assuming they play 18 hours a day thats 468 hours playtime. We could argue over the exact number, but let's just take it as an estimate.
I refuse to take this as an estimate. Most people who level characters more than once can grind out a character in about 5 days played. If you played the game for 26 days straight for 18 hours a day I am pretty sure you'd have some organs fail.
Ok so your estimate is five days played. Thats 5 * 24 = 120 hours. And thats power grinding, the most painful and repetitive of all the leveling options. Throw on some tradeskills, downtime, and instance runs and you could easily be at 200. Either way, that is still a massive number of hours, more then enough to pass my exam, more then enough for anyone to do anything more important. Put another way, your paying about a $1.50 per hour for the service. I would certainly pay someone $1.50 to mow my lawn or do my dishes so I could get on with other things in life.
You must not be familiar with how easy it is to grind quests while playing WoW. The five day formula is very simple and is not mob grind. Quests are taken and completed in large numbers. The amount of exp that flows in is huge. There is a simple way that I've never found boring.
Then you enjoy doing the same shit over and over. Get a kill quest, go turn in a bunch of bear paws. Maybe your efficient at it, but we are still talking about hundreds of hours of wasted time. Hundreds of hours is a lot.
I would really like it if you would stop calling the parts of the game you don't like "shit". It bothers me that you can't see that others enjoy what you find mindless. Raiding is "shit" to me, but I don't call it that. It is just as many hours and if I had to play WoW for 4 - 6 hours straight for a chance for one item I would probably think that was a waste of time. Regardless I don't call that style curse words to make my point seem cooler.
I think the Godzilla hollywood made in the 1990s was shit. Maybe you disagree with me, but my opinion on the matter holds true. So does my opinion of grinding out mob after mob for hours on end.
It doesn't matter what your opinion is if you choose to insult someone else's opinion by cursing at them. I would understand that if we were on Nancy Grace's Fox News show, but we aren't. We are talking about cheating. I would rather not have to talk about my "shit" version of the game. Instead I'd rather have a debate.
Also, thanks for joining the huge wall of multiple colors. I'm glad you decided to make this into a three way conversation as if you are the person I'm talking to.
468 hours is a heck of a lot of time. Imagine what you could do with 468 hours. I know what I did, I studied for my acturial exam. I'd say I spent maybe 130 hours on it. When I passed the exam my work gave me a 5k raise. Powerleveling is $365, so I came out 338 hours and $4,635 ahead (I actually find grinding xp worse then studying math, so its even more in my favor) I had a 70, 60, and 53. I also have a part-time job, I am a full time student, and I live in my own place with my girlfriend. During that schedule I maintained all of these characters without getting fired, failing any classes, getting evicted, or breaking up. The figures you are giving me on time to reach 70 are skewed. I am not sure why this is, but perhaps it stems from how much of the level grind you've actually played. It is very easy to level a character if you know the hotspots. A LOT less than 468 hours. When I was in college I had an assload of freetime too. That's when I leveled my first toon myself. Trust me, when you graduate and get a real job with real responsibilities you'll look back and realize just how much time you had in college. I am not exactly sure what part time job you had in college, but mine usually runs from when I'm out of class until about 7 or 8. I then study and spend time with my girlfriend. On the weekends I usually work 9 - 12 hour shifts. On Sunday I study for tests and do the internet portions of my classes. I am not bombarded with free time. To compare you college career to mine is unfair. I get about 2 - 3 hours of free time a day if I'm lucky. And those hours aren't linked. The fact of the matter is that I still managed to level my characters up without paying some more chinese kid to push the buttons for me. Playing the game two hours a day unlinked might be enough to level over the course of six months, but it sure as hell isn't enough to play endgame. PvP doesn't allow you to proceed at your own pace, you have to keep pace with everyone else, or lose. You would be surprised what I can do with 14 hours a week. PvP does now allow you to pace yourself. Although the arena is a ladder the BGs now work with the pace of the player. Also, you can still get arena items if you lose all 10 games you play. The points don't disappear if you stop playing for a week. The PvP you are speaking about was phased out because it was causing too much trouble. People would report others for cheating which would get their account suspended for a few days. Long enough for them to drop a spot. That's just one example. No, you can't get arena items losing ten games a week. You can get your shoulders and your gloves. You can't get your set, you can't get your weapon. That isn't enough to compete at a high level. Just cause you see everyone running around with thier arena shoulders doesn't mean they are getting top of the line gear PvPing. Perhaps I am unfamiliar with the way arena points work. From what others have told me you still get points every week for playing regardless of your score. The points reset? This is news to me. I don't PvP. This thread wasn't even originally about arena grinding. It is about cheating and how people view it. Most of the people who argue again cheating are people who either 1) Enjoy grinding 2) Have nothing better to do with thier lives. One of my in game friends gives me a hard time about buying gold. Same crap about working for it and earning it and shit. I suppose if I was unemployed and lived with my parents and mouched off them I'd have time to sit around and play MMOs all day. I think, though, I'm making much better live choices then this guy, so lecture all you want. I stated above my current gaming/living situation. The situation you've explained is not a high percentage of WoW players. Many players I've played with have never purchased gold and have multiple high level characters. My guild leader has five kids, two are in school, one is a motorcycle rider and he also works for a software development company. None of these people buy gold/characters and none of them favor it. I'm not exactly sure how your life choices stack up when the other people are just as busy with real life and still prosper in the game without cheating. It is a high percentage of WoW players who try to stay on the cutting edge. Join a big hardcore raiding guild (the only way to get the loots you need for PvP). They are all disfunctional bastards. My guilds leader had a kid too, which he constantly neglected for WoW. Hopefully he doesn't end up like those Korean kids that starve to death while thier folks play WoW. I've heard many stories of idiots neglecting their real life duties for WoW. A lot of these people are rather horrible people in real life as well. There is no excuse. That said I still don't think that playing the game's grind is going to turn you into a bad father. Also, I'm pretty sure the most expensive PvP gear is obtainable by group of 2 - 5 people. Raid gear is not designed for PvP anymore. The PvP gear still isn't as good as the raid gear. Season two is a woefully small upgrade, and PvE gear just gets better the better. The stuff out of hyjal and BT is clearly TIERS above season 2. Moreover, raiding lets you fill every slot, not a 5/5 set. In addition, most raid items are comming with tons of stamina these days, and a ton more +DMG. They are better. +Dmg in PvP? Do you play a Warlock? I'm pretty sure it depends on your class. I know for a fact that +dmg gear doesn't do anything for a Shadow Priest. That's a very biased view. I'm pretty sure most good PvP teams are using PvP gear. Although I don't really check on those items because I don't like PvP. I find that playing the same three maps over and over is pretty pointless and doesn't really fit my vision of an RPG. +dmg is one of the most fundamental PvP stats. If you hit twice as hard as someone else, that is a huge advantage. PvP arena gear was good because it had a lot of stam, but now the new raid items have stam too. Moreover, except for weapons season two wasn't nearly a big enough upgrade (in fact, your better of buying season one for less points it was so bad). Despite promises, PvP gear is not keeping pace with PvE gear. New raid items? Is this black temple stuff? I quit about a week before 2.1 launched. I'm sorry if I am a bit behind the raid gear. I never raid and looking at raid gear usually disappoints me since it trumps most everything else. On top of this, arena is drastically imbalanced. For one thing, only certain classes are really allowed to play. If your a druid or a hunter or something, you might as well go home. You aren't getting you're full set and weapon. 5v5 can even be quite onerous to schedule, because you need five top notched pvpers of the exact right classes with the exact right specs. I have a 2000 3v3 team, and even that doesn't get me all the items arena has to offer. Are you serious? See above. I stated how easy it is to farm those epics. No, you didn't. You can't lose ten games a week and get your new set every season. How often do seasons restart? And of course once you get your new shiny epic you need to get it enchanted. That costs G. And on top of that you have to get fucking gems for it now, another farming timesink. So your solution is to buy the gold for those? You are just skipping one grind to get into the midst of another. You said a 2000 point team isn't enough? Why not just buy a character with the PvP gear already farmed? Then you could grind without any goal...oh wait you quit because that was boring? Sounds like you failed to grasp the core function of the game. You grind to play and play to grind. It is simple and cheating is silly. I did fail to grasp the point of WoW. The first time through leveling I played it for the exploration factor. Then at endgame I played it for competitive PvP and challenging raiding. Raiding became a grind because once I learned the encounter, I had to farm it twenty times. Learnign the encounters was fun, GRINDING was not. PvP was fun, and having human opponents made it less repetitive. It got old because they never released new BGs and the arena system was really really imbalanced. Your first paragraph in this clump of text makes sense. You had a vision in mind. You wanted to play the high level content. I understand that. Blizzard puts out content periodically for you. I also agree that the BG and Arena system are flawed. A game with many different environments sure skimps on the BGs and Arenas. The problem here is a flaw that happened because WoW is a PvE game with PvP additions which came much later. These are design flaws in WoW. Not being given the option to switch classes at the cap is a design flaw. Having to clear the same instance twenty times is a design flaw. I quit WoW because the developers FORCED me to grind the same content over and over, instead of releasing new content. They FORCED me to play too much or give up on playing in high level PvP. I disagree here. Although you make wish to change your character from a Warrior to a Mage you should not be given the ability to change classes at the top. The grind Blizzard put in forces you to play characters from 1 - 70. This is a feature of their game. If you dislike it than you quit, which you did. I would not call this a design flaw. No MMORPG allows you to create top level characters just because you did the grind once. They all force you to create characters. I came to WoW through warcraft and starcraft. I was expecting a skill based game that was fun. Instead it is a gear and time based repetitive grind. Had I played another MMO before, or at least knew all thier promises about the xpac were lies, then I would have quit awhile ago. And yet you still played the game from 1 - 70? And what promises were lies? I was pretty impressed by the difference after the expansion. Although it was the same game they added a bunch of stuff that was interesting. Developers should NEVER ask players to do things they don't find fun for hundreds of hours. Games are made to have fun. They don't. You pay for the product. If you don't like the product you stop playing it. If you want to experience a Player vs. Player fantasy game that doesn't require grinding I believe GuildWars allows you to create characters at the max level for PvP.
If your in some casual shit guild with second best gear and are ok getting steamrolled by hardcores in PvP, maybe you can get by. If you want to be on the bleeding edge you've got to play wow 40 hours a week. It is hard for me to comment on this because it sounds crazy. You are basically saying that all non-hardcore players are "shit" and that you have to cheat to be good... That's sad. Aren't there other ways to enjoy yourself while playing WoW? How about the friends you make while leveling...whoops you dont level. How about the people you trust who have been there from the beginning...wait no. How about helping your friends grind for their epic tradeskill stuff...oh wait they all buy it. Sounds like you are missing the point and you are going to have to continue buying things that others earn in order to "have fun". Sounds like a bad habit to me. Leveling and exploring is only fun the first time around. After that, there is nothing left to explore. You are doing the samn shit you did the first time. It isn't fun. I'm pretty sure that's a very biased opinion. I've had fun leveling two characters. The experience the second and even the third time around was interesting. Why? Well, the first time I was learning the ropes and needed a lot of help to figure out the best way to head to 60. The second time I knew the ropes and had a blast seeing how quickly I could ding. The third time I AoE'd (which takes practice and skill imo) with a Paladin and barely quested at all. In other words, I changed the grind to suit me instead of cheating and losing all credibility. I'm going to disagree. I've done it, it isn't that hard to learn a new class, leveling doesn't help. Leveling doesn't help you learn a class? I can understand players who can learn classes at 70, but i've never heard anyone who thinks leveling a character doesn't teach you the ropes. Crazy. I also reject the idea that leveling helps you learn a class and your helpless without it. I don't powerlevel, but I have traded account with people a lot so I can play the different classes. The leveling process is nothing but tedium. Kill X of Y, turn in, Kill A of B, turn in. You perform the same actions ad nauseum, you use maybe 5 abilities the whole time. Leveling is overrated for learning a class. Give someone with natural videogaming aptitude and some pervious experience with another level 70 and you can learn a new class in about a month of playing at the level cap. MMO isn't rocket science man. You said in the beginning that leveling to 70 takes a month. You now say that learning to be 70 takes a month. Do you spend 18 hour days fumbling around with your 70 learning the ropes? Do you go to instances with your newly acquired 70? I would rather level for a month than stumble around blindly clicking buttons trying to figure out what fireball does. Also, raiding, instancing, and pvp at 70 are still grinds. They are just more robust. Are you telling me that buying yourself a 70 to grind at 70 is smarter than leveling and learning a 70 to grind at 70? Seems like we are obtaining the same end. I am just putting a bit more effort into providing my groupmates/raidmates/pvpmates with a more competant player. Also, if MMOs aren't rocket science why are you paying someone else to put your legos together? It seems a lot less enjoyable and no where near as fulfilling to me. Learning how a fireball works doesn't take 70 levels. Do you already have a max cap player. Do you belong to a raiding guild. Do you have mages in your guild. If so, you've probably seen them play, talk about thier characters, PvPed against mages. Guess what, you were learning those classes the whole time, just by watching others. When you get a mage at 70 you don't magically forget how a fireball works. You through it on your hotbar and you start using it. After about a month you learn all the eccentricities and min-maxing you didn't already know. You're right, raiding and PvP in WoW are just another grind. Which is why I quit the game. But when I first started doing them, in my very first MMO, I thought they were challenging and cool. I wanted to skip the boring crap and play the parts I enjoyed. I'm pretty sure I disagree with how someone fundamentally builds their classes abilities. Although much can be learned from knowing what fireball version to use against a boss I don't think that is learning your class. Raiding and hardcore PvP are basically two routes which you find appealing. In those situations it is easy to learn what spells and combos work well. I don't mind that. I agree, actually. It is not hard to learn when to click shoot fire and when to stop. I think the whole problem is that we disagree on what makes the game fun. I like exploring the game as a whole. I like knowing where to go and what to kill so I can earn new spells and abilities. Sure I wouldn't mind test driving a character, but I wouldn't feel connected to it. I'd get bored, just like you did. I'd stop having fun because it would be just another grind. I'd spend money to skip killing rats because it is SO BORING AND I JUST WANT TO PVP AND RAIDDDD. Fortunately I find the grind to 70 fun and I paced myself enough so that I could experience the game and enjoy myself. The kids spending their income on gold and rep/honor meanwhile were racing faster and faster towards realizing that buying anything in game is worthless because eventually you come to a point where you get bored of a grind you can't pay for. In short, you are basically bought yourself boredom. Because you find mindless grinding over and over fun, you can't possibly understand why someone would want to skip it. The grind is what you make it. I think that PvP arenas are mindless. Every top team has almost the same class spread and they use the same PvP tactics which made those classes overpowered in Battlegrounds. The only difference is that games last a few minutes instead of 10 - 60 minutes. Also, I can understand exactly why people skip it. Their mentality towards MMORPGs is vastly different from my own. Instead of finding a different genre like an FPS or an RTS they infest my genre with exploitation and illegal item/gold/character trade. You don't see me logging into Counterstrike and asking everyone to pretend they are elves and search the map for rabbit paws. So don't skip my game's content just so you can pew pew on the 70 PvP maps. Well, it's our game too. We pay $15 a month like you. If Blizzard won't take peoples desires into account, maybe one of the new games comming out will. At least Warhammer gives XP for PvP. I wouldn't mind grinding new toons to 70 if that were the case. Actually, if you are like the other poster than you pay more than 15 for the game. You also illegally pay for things others don't. If you only paid legally the sub price I could understand, but you choose to cheat and that doesn't fly with me. If you want to play without the grind I think MMORPGs might not be your genre. It is unfortunate that in order to experience aspects of the game you enjoy, developers force you to wade through a bunch of shit you don't want. It doesn't have to be this way. They've made a choice (mainly because they have to spend less money on new content developement if they force you to grind). Until they make the right choice (games full of dunamic content every enjoys and has fun all the time) people will decide for themselves if the cost of skipping boring content and getting to the good stuff is worth it too them. One man's trash is another man's treasure. A game you might find enjoyable would be utterly boring or horribly imbalanced to another. I enjoy the grind. I don't think of it as killing for paws. It is a risk vs reward system and I spend a lot of doing more than just grinding. I alt-tab to other websites. I chat and vent with friends. I cook dinner while I ride the FPs. I train fishing. I do what the game intends. I agree with one thing. People WILL decide for themselves if the cost of skipping content and gettting to the "good" stuff is worth it. Also, the game developers will decide which practices they allow and which they will ban for. It is only a matter of time (see: recent bannings and lawsuits by Blizzard) before the practice you agree with is wiped out. Prohibition didn't get rid of booze, and the war on drugs didn't get rid of E or pot. The government had much greater resources then Blizzard. Supply and demand will always get togethor. And demand will always be there as long as developers insist on forcing people to grind through unfun content in a game. You're probably right. Gold sellers will always have a presence within the community. Every community has those who desire to break the rules in order to meet their own needs. The problem only appears to those who enjoy the game without the cheats on. When a game you love to experience as a whole is exploited by those who don't find that "fun" you will see how I feel about it. Until then good luck.
People that buy money etc in games are generally people who haven't as much time to spend on the game as others. If a game is actually good, people won't *need* to buy money, as it'll still allow players with a more casual playstyle to enjoy the game without the need to buy money/items/accounts online.
I think that's the point for a lot of people buying gold. They want to play what little actual content is in the game, and not just grind.
The more realistic question is, if you can't deal with the grind why are you playing an MMOG? I think there's a bit of disbelief among buyers that if they suddenly have unlimited funds / a max level character that the game will be fun. The truth is often quite the opposite, because it's simply a different grind after that (faction, honor, etc).
I think that's the point for a lot of people buying gold. They want to play what little actual content is in the game, and not just grind.
The more realistic question is, if you can't deal with the grind why are you playing an MMOG? I think there's a bit of disbelief among buyers that if they suddenly have unlimited funds / a max level character that the game will be fun. The truth is often quite the opposite, because it's simply a different grind after that (faction, honor, etc).
I think it is the MMO part and not the RPG part. MMOs are the only games that really have a gigantic world with tens of thousands of people interacting in a persistant game world. Teamwork and community are a big part of MMO, something you don't get from logging on and playing a game of starcraft with a single friend of yours. Moreover, they have unique content not found in other games.
I don't think it is the content that is the problem so much as the repitition and the emphasis on constant gear progression (the RPG part). If developers didn't introduce massive gear inequality, people wouldn't feel the need to rush through their content. And if they put out content more often (hired more devs, relied on player driven content) then there wouldn't be so much repitition.
I think your right that none of the current MMOs out there offer what people are looking for. The only one I can think of is Guild Wars, but I've tried that game and it has very unfun clunky interface and movement. Also it is too instanced.
People have invested a lot into their toons, they have friends in a game. They have a hard time letting go, and they would rather the game changed to something they liked more. I don't think that is going to happen with the current crop, we have to see if new games are as innovative as they claim.
I admitt i tried cheating once because i was too lazy to level up my own character. But i was also too lazy to figure out how to get the bot program to work, hehe....
_____________________________ "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
You mean the game's economy or the US's economy? Buying gold and botting help to ruin MMORPG economies. Players who can make money without playing the game will pay higher prices for goods. While that might seem good it actually ruins the economy. Players who are grinding a tradeskill cannot possibly buy the required tradeskill items from the AH. Players who are trying to buy popular items will be forced to pay high prices for items that are not really worth that price.
Actually this is not true. Just like so many others you are making assumptions without actual proof.
You are saying that someone who has to spend $50 US on 100 gold would be more prone to waste it than someone who farmed it. This is a false statement. That 100 gold now has a real dollar cost for the buyer and he will have to pay more in the future to get it back. They are actually LESS likely to bloat the economy as they are much more frugal with their gold.
The people who power game jack the economy. Those people who spend 6 - 12 hours a day spend insane amounts of in game cash on items to tweek themselves just that fraction more. They also have the time to jack the prices and wait for the desperate buyer in auction houses.
If anything farmers and gold buyers bring down the cost of items in the economy as they want fast sales.
I have never farmed or bought gold, but I see no issue with either. I see game addiction as a much more important topic for discussion as most people who rant about this stuff do have an addiction and need help.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
People that buy money etc in games are generally people who haven't as much time to spend on the game as others. If a game is actually good, people won't *need* to buy money, as it'll still allow players with a more casual playstyle to enjoy the game without the need to buy money/items/accounts online.
If you aren't intellectually challenged, you can play 1-2 hours a day and remain competitive in arena. If you can't raid or PvP "hard-core" without buying gold/leveling services, then why aspire to? This is like using steroids in a sport where you just aren't good enough or aren't willing to put in the effort to compete at top-level.
There is absolutely no need for anyone to buy gold when playing WoW. If you can't put in the hours, don't expect great rewards, this works for nearly any activity/hobby.
I play Vanguard, as you may guess from my sig.... i have seen what dupes/gold sellers can do to an economy..... crafters are selling things at truly unreasonable prices because they can, because of the dupes and goldsellers..... lvl 10 - 20 items selling for FAR MORE than a character typically has in that level range. gold sellers don't kill economies because of the actually money they inject into the market, but because of the perceived money they introduce, whether actual or otherwise...... as soon as (some of the) crafters / harvesters see an influx of money into the game human greed kicks in and they charge to the highest common denominator. and those that try to sell at reasonable prices get bought out by the gold sellers / greedy crafters and re-listed. example: i put up a sloop at what i thought was a reasonable price, it got bought and relisted by the person who bought it for double what i was asking.
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
As far as businesses farming, it wasn't a speck on the radar in SWG when I played. Probably becuase the population was relatively small, there were no free trials, and money was easy to come by anyway. Without the outside businesses involved and without widespread exploits it seemed like no harm, no foul. Of course, we had people who thought that items cost more than their "fair market value", but I've seen that everywhere, even in games without major player crafting components (people "playing" the auction house in WoW comes to mind).
That said, my ambivalence (sp?) to in-game currency sales disappears when you introduce the farmers and exploits. Same with the spamming of outside web sites. At that point they're truly bringing an outside effect into the game, as opposed to someone like me who had no more effect on the game than someone gifting a friend or guildie legit money when they needed it.
For how much of a 'failure' the game is, and how underpopulated the game is i can expect between 10 and fifteen gold teller spams in a four hour play session, usually starting within the first 3 mins of play beginning.
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
I find cheating to be really common these days in games, and it's a damn shame.
I understand some of the causes, as noted throughout the multiple colored replies in this thread (it's like Rainbow Road off of Mario Kart, I swear). Poor economic designs, unnecessary time sinks, itemization, etc etc. However, in my book, the cheaters are just as crumby as the game design.
I frown upon the lame excuses cheaters seem to cling to these days too. "I work all day and can't play as much as I'd like", or "I've got a family, so I can't play consistently enough to keep up", or "I want to get ahead". All garbage empathy-seeking excuses in my book. If you work all day, perhaps you should consider shopping for a more casual game. You have a family? Spend that money on your kids, not in-game currency and items that don't even matter in the grand scheme of things. Want to get ahead? Play smart; research your game. Whether you pay for PL's or not, there's ALWAYS going to be the group of people who play for 14 hours a day, 7 days a week. You can't keep up with them; you're not supposed to be able to either.
This is unfortunate too, because it's a problem faced by the gaming community, created by the gaming community. If people weren't using these services, the RMT market wouldn't exist. It's sad to me too; I remember when people played games because they liked them, and they were fun. Nowadays, it seems if people can't have the best gear, be the highest level, in the best guild, with the coolest PvP setup, and in the least amount of time, than the game's not worth playing.
In my humble opinion, I blame this on the lack of community in modern MMO's. When people log in to a game, and encounter a friendly, social atmosphere, it's not as big of a deal to hit the level cap, or get the phat lewt, or whatever the hell else is entailed in the game. Nowadays, games focus on timesinks (making leveling tedious and monotonous), incessant gear grinding (WoW is a FANTASTIC example of gear grinding), and pandering to the junkie-elitists (the folks who only talk on Ventrilo to their guilds, and play allllll day).
The only way to counter RMT, in my opinion, is to have devs actively engaging the player base in the game. Let's face it; players can spot the gold-sellers/bot-farmers/power-levelers faster than anyone else. I mean really, I know in FFXI for example, it was a joke when it came to spotting a guy. They'd be on for days at a time, farming, non-stop.
Also, I believe T.O.S. need to be re-constructed. Most games and the CSR's only seem to ban folks if they're not at the keyboard. However, just because a person is running scripts/bots doesn't mean that they can't chime in to say "Hello!". Bans for suspicious activities or prolonged log-in times would be an effective counter-measure to RMT players and services, in my opinion.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
And they get more money for goods that they sell. The 'ruin' that people point to is always just 'there's inflation, the numbers beside items are higher than I think they should be, the economy is ruined'. In any game where it's easy to make money later on (like WOW), there's going to be inflation, but that doesn't mean the economy is 'ruined'.
So they use a gathering skill to gather the tradeskill items. Or if it's a game like WOW, skip the tradeskill entirely at low levels and just take 2 gathering skills, sell the goods, and have truckloads of cash.
What this really means is that you've arbitrarily decided that a particular number of gold coins is the set in stone 'worth' of an item forever, which doesn't mean anything. Items, especially nonessential items (imaginary video game items don't come remotely near being essential), have their value determined by what people are willing to pay for them. Also, what does it matter if someone pays high prices for an item that they want if they also get high prices for items that they don't want? If they can make 12x as much selling stuff they gather, and items cost 10x as much as you think they should, they're actually coming out ahead.
Actually... in a closed economy, like a MMO, MOST players do not tradeskill or gather. Those that do like to tradeskill and "follow the market" can in some ways keep up with inflation in game, but that is the minority, maybe 20% of the population at most. So the players, the majority, that do not cheat and buy gold have to rely on quests and grinding to make the gold needed to buy what they need or want. Quests and grinding is STATIC. These are controlled by in-game mechanics to allow said player to make a certain amount of in game money with time spent. The harder and longer the quest, or difficulty of grind content, the higher the payoff. This is controlled by the rewards and vendors that buy the trash and body drops and bind equipment you get from quests and mobs.
So ~80% of the player base is making money at a predetermined rate coded by the game and CANNOT keep up with inflation that is exemplified by outside means, namely, gold buying. If you don't "play the market" or have an interest in tradeskilling to keep up, you will be left behind. (Which btw even quickens the need to "buy gold", grind more, or do things in game that you do not enjoy to keep up) Even a lot of those that do tradeskill, and used to enjoy it, might now not enjoy it as the "grind" in tradeskilling has been increased by the inflation.
Buying gold does ruin the economy by increasing the inflation in an economy that WILL inflate. There is no stopping inflation in a game that has a closed economy, but buying gold increases that rate by introducing an outside variable that cannot be controlled by game developers through money sinks and vendor pricing (and expansions/updates that keep raising the bar to introduce new product that is superior to old product). So now players that do not cheat cannot keep up, and their money from normal questing and "grinding" is worthless because others are gaining gold to spend on inflated products through other means.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Actually this is not true. Just like so many others you are making assumptions without actual proof. Maybe you should follow your own advice... You are saying that someone who has to spend $50 US on 100 gold would be more prone to waste it than someone who farmed it. This is a false statement. That 100 gold now has a real dollar cost for the buyer and he will have to pay more in the future to get it back. They are actually LESS likely to bloat the economy as they are much more frugal with their gold. The people who power game jack the economy. Those people who spend 6 - 12 hours a day spend insane amounts of in game cash on items to tweek themselves just that fraction more. They also have the time to jack the prices and wait for the desperate buyer in auction houses. Namely, people that sell gold to gold BUYERS. Those people that spend several hours a day making gold to SELL to gold buyers. That is the whole point and somehow you missed it. Yes, there are power gamers that spend lots of time making gold in game, but that percentage, probably less than 5% of the entire population is already coded for and realized by game developers. You're always going to have extreme players, that's natural. What is NOT natural is to have several players that gain gold by INHUMAN means that DO jack the economy and sell the gold to cheaters that buy it and don't get it for themselves, or do without. This is an uncontrollabe variable that cannot be coded for and destroys in game mechanics developed for normal play. If anything farmers and gold buyers bring down the cost of items in the economy as they want fast sales. Wrong again, read previous posts as this has been covered extensively. I have never farmed or bought gold, but I see no issue with either. I see game addiction as a much more important topic for discussion as most people who rant about this stuff do have an addiction and need help. Not really sure what you're trying to say, but if you're saying that complaining about someone cheating in a game you play affects you, you have EVERY right in the world to compain about it. Those that cheat and resort to underhanded measures to keep up in a video game need counseling, and probably their kids too, god forbid they have any.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
What is the point of botting, buying gold, and cheating the game in general? The money is fake, the character is fake, the game will die (they all do eventually in some form). So then what is the purpose of cheating it, even if only for the time you are playing, to achieve equal or higher levels than the pure player?
Because some MMORPGS are made for losers and require a big time investment that ordinary(non high school kids) people can't put in.
Who is to say what is cheating anyway.. If you look at WoW and all the mods that people NEED to actually compete in PvE... you could consider mods cheating. I dont have a problem with people who buy gold, buy powerlevels, etc. I understand some people cant put in the amount of time they'd like to. Personally I like to level up myself w/o having some chinese person do it for me.
Sorry to pick on you as this post is going to answer several posts attitude, but you made a pretty big statement there (especially on a forum for MMO's ).
It is cheating because SoE, Blizzard, Turbine, and etc. SAID so. Also, the very meaning of the word cheat:
n.
An act of cheating; a fraud or swindle.
One who cheats; a swindler.
A computer application, password, or disallowed technique used to advance to a higher skill level in a computer video game.
Law Fraudulent acquisition of another's property.
Botany An annual European species of brome grass (Bromus secalinus) widely naturalized in temperate regions.
Cheating in a video game to circumvent "the boring parts" or the "time consuming parts" is such a weak excuse. If you don't like the game, then don't play it. There is this button called cancel, you press it, tell them your concerns and move on to a game you CAN play. Just because you don't want to play the parts of the game that "force" you to exchange time for money or skill for time, it doesn't give you the right to destroy the game for thousands or millions of other players that DO enjoy the game, and play it like it's supposed to. Find another game, don't play a game, whatever it takes, but if you don't want to do it, DON'T, QUIT. Go away!!
There are TONS of single player games, and even some multiplayer that you can jump right in, or even use cheat codes and it doesn't affect anyone else. No one cares that you cheat at Mario Bros., or FEAR, or Halflife, or Sims 2, or Baldur's Gate, because it doesn't affect anyone else. Other people DO play in an MMO, and it does affect them, so do them, and youself a favor and quit. Cancel your subscription and find something else. It surely does not make any sense to play a game you don't enjoy.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
What is the point of botting, buying gold, and cheating the game in general? The money is fake, the character is fake, the game will die (they all do eventually in some form). So then what is the purpose of cheating it, even if only for the time you are playing, to achieve equal or higher levels than the pure player?
Because some MMORPGS are made for losers and require a big time investment that ordinary(non high school kids) people can't put in.
Who is to say what is cheating anyway.. If you look at WoW and all the mods that people NEED to actually compete in PvE... you could consider mods cheating. I dont have a problem with people who buy gold, buy powerlevels, etc. I understand some people cant put in the amount of time they'd like to. Personally I like to level up myself w/o having some chinese person do it for me.
Sorry to pick on you as this post is going to answer several posts attitude, but you made a pretty big statement there (especially on a forum for MMO's ).
It is cheating because SoE, Blizzard, Turbine, and etc. SAID so. Also, the very meaning of the word cheat:
n.
An act of cheating; a fraud or swindle.
One who cheats; a swindler.
A computer application, password, or disallowed technique used to advance to a higher skill level in a computer video game.
Law Fraudulent acquisition of another's property.
Botany An annual European species of brome grass (Bromus secalinus) widely naturalized in temperate regions.
Cheating in a video game to circumvent "the boring parts" or the "time consuming parts" is such a weak excuse. If you don't like the game, then don't play it. There is this button called cancel, you press it, tell them your concerns and move on to a game you CAN play. Just because you don't want to play the parts of the game that "force" you to exchange time for money or skill for time, it doesn't give you the right to destroy the game for thousands or millions of other players that DO enjoy the game, and play it like it's supposed to. Find another game, don't play a game, whatever it takes, but if you don't want to do it, DON'T, QUIT. Go away!!
There are TONS of single player games, and even some multiplayer that you can jump right in, or even use cheat codes and it doesn't affect anyone else. No one cares that you cheat at Mario Bros., or FEAR, or Halflife, or Sims 2, or Baldur's Gate, because it doesn't affect anyone else. Other people DO play in an MMO, and it does affect them, so do them, and youself a favor and quit. Cancel your subscription and find something else. It surely does not make any sense to play a game you don't enjoy.
Did it ever occur to you that people enjoy OTHER parts of the game, not the farming?
Seems it didnt.
How does a guy farming for 10 hours for money not ruin the game, but someone buying money from someone who farmed for 10 hours ruin it? Both had someone farm for 10 hours, both are using 10 hours worth of money. The impact on the game = 0.
The only thing that DOES ruin a game, is monopolizing ala FFXI last year. That screws up the economy, but normal players do that too.
I find cheating to be really common these days in games, and it's a damn shame. I understand some of the causes, as noted throughout the multiple colored replies in this thread (it's like Rainbow Road off of Mario Kart, I swear). Poor economic designs, unnecessary time sinks, itemization, etc etc. However, in my book, the cheaters are just as crumby as the game design. I frown upon the lame excuses cheaters seem to cling to these days too. "I work all day and can't play as much as I'd like", or "I've got a family, so I can't play consistently enough to keep up", or "I want to get ahead". All garbage empathy-seeking excuses in my book. If you work all day, perhaps you should consider shopping for a more casual game. You have a family? Spend that money on your kids, not in-game currency and items that don't even matter in the grand scheme of things. Want to get ahead? Play smart; research your game. Whether you pay for PL's or not, there's ALWAYS going to be the group of people who play for 14 hours a day, 7 days a week. You can't keep up with them; you're not supposed to be able to either. This is unfortunate too, because it's a problem faced by the gaming community, created by the gaming community. If people weren't using these services, the RMT market wouldn't exist. It's sad to me too; I remember when people played games because they liked them, and they were fun. Nowadays, it seems if people can't have the best gear, be the highest level, in the best guild, with the coolest PvP setup, and in the least amount of time, than the game's not worth playing. In my humble opinion, I blame this on the lack of community in modern MMO's. When people log in to a game, and encounter a friendly, social atmosphere, it's not as big of a deal to hit the level cap, or get the phat lewt, or whatever the hell else is entailed in the game. Nowadays, games focus on timesinks (making leveling tedious and monotonous), incessant gear grinding (WoW is a FANTASTIC example of gear grinding), and pandering to the junkie-elitists (the folks who only talk on Ventrilo to their guilds, and play allllll day). The only way to counter RMT, in my opinion, is to have devs actively engaging the player base in the game. Let's face it; players can spot the gold-sellers/bot-farmers/power-levelers faster than anyone else. I mean really, I know in FFXI for example, it was a joke when it came to spotting a guy. They'd be on for days at a time, farming, non-stop. Also, I believe T.O.S. need to be re-constructed. Most games and the CSR's only seem to ban folks if they're not at the keyboard. However, just because a person is running scripts/bots doesn't mean that they can't chime in to say "Hello!". Bans for suspicious activities or prolonged log-in times would be an effective counter-measure to RMT players and services, in my opinion.
Games don't have to require you to play 40 hours a week, and they don't have to reward power gamers for playing that much. Simply saying that anyone who can't play 40+ a week shouldn't play MMOs is a cop out. Games could be designed so that there wasn't much benefit to constantly grinding, that the gear difference between hardcore and normal play wasn't so vast, they could take out the timesinks. There is nothing horrible about stat caps, diminshing returns, or non-statistical advancement.
Some say without the timesinks people would finish and quit. I disagree. If a games content is enjoyable people will play. Developers can add new content at a reasonable pace, or rely on player driven content. I've never seen someone say they were going to stop playing frisbee cause they could only play 10 hours a week. People don't have to spend every waking moment doing one thing to enjoy it. Maybe there are a few power gamers out there whose joy is having things other people don't have, but they are a small part of any games population. Most people just want to keep up and play at their own pace.
I find cheating to be really common these days in games, and it's a damn shame. I understand some of the causes, as noted throughout the multiple colored replies in this thread (it's like Rainbow Road off of Mario Kart, I swear). Poor economic designs, unnecessary time sinks, itemization, etc etc. However, in my book, the cheaters are just as crumby as the game design. I frown upon the lame excuses cheaters seem to cling to these days too. "I work all day and can't play as much as I'd like", or "I've got a family, so I can't play consistently enough to keep up", or "I want to get ahead". All garbage empathy-seeking excuses in my book. If you work all day, perhaps you should consider shopping for a more casual game. You have a family? Spend that money on your kids, not in-game currency and items that don't even matter in the grand scheme of things. Want to get ahead? Play smart; research your game. Whether you pay for PL's or not, there's ALWAYS going to be the group of people who play for 14 hours a day, 7 days a week. You can't keep up with them; you're not supposed to be able to either. This is unfortunate too, because it's a problem faced by the gaming community, created by the gaming community. If people weren't using these services, the RMT market wouldn't exist. It's sad to me too; I remember when people played games because they liked them, and they were fun. Nowadays, it seems if people can't have the best gear, be the highest level, in the best guild, with the coolest PvP setup, and in the least amount of time, than the game's not worth playing. In my humble opinion, I blame this on the lack of community in modern MMO's. When people log in to a game, and encounter a friendly, social atmosphere, it's not as big of a deal to hit the level cap, or get the phat lewt, or whatever the hell else is entailed in the game. Nowadays, games focus on timesinks (making leveling tedious and monotonous), incessant gear grinding (WoW is a FANTASTIC example of gear grinding), and pandering to the junkie-elitists (the folks who only talk on Ventrilo to their guilds, and play allllll day). The only way to counter RMT, in my opinion, is to have devs actively engaging the player base in the game. Let's face it; players can spot the gold-sellers/bot-farmers/power-levelers faster than anyone else. I mean really, I know in FFXI for example, it was a joke when it came to spotting a guy. They'd be on for days at a time, farming, non-stop. Also, I believe T.O.S. need to be re-constructed. Most games and the CSR's only seem to ban folks if they're not at the keyboard. However, just because a person is running scripts/bots doesn't mean that they can't chime in to say "Hello!". Bans for suspicious activities or prolonged log-in times would be an effective counter-measure to RMT players and services, in my opinion.
Games don't have to require you to play 40 hours a week, and they don't have to reward power gamers for playing that much. Simply saying that anyone who can't play 40+ a week shouldn't play MMOs is a cop out. Games could be designed so that there wasn't much benefit to constantly grinding, that the gear difference between hardcore and normal play wasn't so vast, they could take out the timesinks. There is nothing horrible about stat caps, diminshing returns, or non-statistical advancement.
Some say without the timesinks people would finish and quit. I disagree. If a games content is enjoyable people will play. Developers can add new content at a reasonable pace, or rely on player driven content. I've never seen someone say they were going to stop playing frisbee cause they could only play 10 hours a week. People don't have to spend every waking moment doing one thing to enjoy it. Maybe there are a few power gamers out there whose joy is having things other people don't have, but they are a small part of any games population. Most people just want to keep up and play at their own pace.
That's not what I said at all.
My gripe is associated with the growing belief that casual gamers should be rewarded, while hardcore gamers should be punished; a sentiment which I disagree with on a personal level. As I said in my post, there's no way people should be keeping up with that 5% of gamers who cap out and clear the content in a month. They play the game more, they're going to have better loot than the average players. That's life.
I can't tell game developers to punish a player for having no social life outside of the game; if they choose to spend 40+ hours a week on a game, more power to the them. The point I was trying to make is that most of the people who engage in the use of RMT, in my opinion and through my person observations, are trying to keep up with the die-hard players. This is stupid. If people realized that 95% of the gaming community isn't out there to rush through the game, they'd probably be more content with their natural pace. But no, everyone wants to be as good as "that guy" with the 6 elite sets of gear, capped out skills, tons of gold, and everything else. They just don't want to work for it. Don't fault the guy with too much free time; fault the lazy asses out there who want instant gratification for little-to-no work.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Comments
And they get more money for goods that they sell. The 'ruin' that people point to is always just 'there's inflation, the numbers beside items are higher than I think they should be, the economy is ruined'. In any game where it's easy to make money later on (like WOW), there's going to be inflation, but that doesn't mean the economy is 'ruined'.
So they use a gathering skill to gather the tradeskill items. Or if it's a game like WOW, skip the tradeskill entirely at low levels and just take 2 gathering skills, sell the goods, and have truckloads of cash.
What this really means is that you've arbitrarily decided that a particular number of gold coins is the set in stone 'worth' of an item forever, which doesn't mean anything. Items, especially nonessential items (imaginary video game items don't come remotely near being essential), have their value determined by what people are willing to pay for them.
Also, what does it matter if someone pays high prices for an item that they want if they also get high prices for items that they don't want? If they can make 12x as much selling stuff they gather, and items cost 10x as much as you think they should, they're actually coming out ahead.
You can trade game time cards for ISK, which means you can pay $15 (or whatever the card costs) and give the code to someone in exchange for in-game money. This is supported and approved of by the developers, and if someone screws you on a trade the GMs will intervent.
Because some MMORPGS are made for losers and require a big time investment that ordinary(non high school kids) people can't put in.
Who is to say what is cheating anyway.. If you look at WoW and all the mods that people NEED to actually compete in PvE... you could consider mods cheating. I dont have a problem with people who buy gold, buy powerlevels, etc. I understand some people cant put in the amount of time they'd like to. Personally I like to level up myself w/o having some chinese person do it for me.
Cheats are for ppl that never win in a match or never get fame on there own.
They call a guy that is good but not good as them a noob. That is one thing i never understand, you got this guy that dont cheat and kicks butt until maybe fighting a cheater, and the cheater wins and calls him a noob hehehe them guys are losers.
Cheaters are the ones that will steal from you there also the ones that go to jail for fruad , There the ones that are allways boreed in the game .
There the ones that end up in real life in prison for some crime that has to do with cheating.
Cheaters are the nobody of the world , there like a rat in a sewer.
There the only NOOB even if they play a game for years there still a noob ,Because as soon as they stop cheating , they stop winning.
You cant breath better if you use something to push air in your lungs, Why because your are cheating to breath with a breathing machine.
Same as a cheater you cant get better untill you play for your self.
In my book cheater are scum that sits in the tolet when iam done useing it!
WWIIOnline The Real War!
As far as buying gold goes, in my experience it's not the leet kiddies who're buying. It's the adults with limited time and some disposable income that don't want to grind.
I sold a couple thousand dollars worth of completely legit credits in pre-CU SWG during my time there. I knew just about every one of the hardcore players and their alts on my server, and only one hardcore player ever bought credits from me. The rest were all adults who otherwise kept to themselves. Lots and lots of military (the guy the bought my WoW account was also military).
Seems to me it's most often those with one RL advantage (disposable time) that rally the hardest against people using another RL advantage (RL income). As long as the in-game currency is earned legitimately I don't see the problem. It's simply a transfer of in-game wealth from players with excess time to players with excess RL income.
I do not have a RL advantage (disposable time) and I do have enough income i could buy in-game currency if i chose to. I don't. I think anyone who does in an environment that expressly says 'not allowed' should be removed / banned from the environment.... if the game is structured to allow for it, then fine. but in most cases the secondary market is introduced by outside entities profiting from the game environment that they did not create.... leeching off of other peoples success.
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
ya. ok. whatever.
but what do i know, i'm only a vanbois i'm told.
I think one of the dumbest things I always hear about RMT is that buying gold means you arent good at playing the game.
For some reason people think farming money is hard and skillful and not just time consuming.
So basically people bot because it is boring after one or two runs. That is still bad practice.
The first time I leveled to cap was OK, because it was fresh and new. Subsequent levelings are mind-numbingly boring. Despite your claim that they are easy, the grind takes an obsessive number of hours. I just went to peons4hire website and they are offering 1-70 in 26 days. Assuming they play 18 hours a day thats 468 hours playtime. We could argue over the exact number, but let's just take it as an estimate.
LETS ALL QUOTE THE MASSIVE WALL OF COLOR TEXT!if you pay for a game, why don't YOU play it?
People that buy money etc in games are generally people who haven't as much time to spend on the game as others. If a game is actually good, people won't *need* to buy money, as it'll still allow players with a more casual playstyle to enjoy the game without the need to buy money/items/accounts online.
I think that's the point for a lot of people buying gold. They want to play what little actual content is in the game, and not just grind.
The more realistic question is, if you can't deal with the grind why are you playing an MMOG? I think there's a bit of disbelief among buyers that if they suddenly have unlimited funds / a max level character that the game will be fun. The truth is often quite the opposite, because it's simply a different grind after that (faction, honor, etc).
I think that's the point for a lot of people buying gold. They want to play what little actual content is in the game, and not just grind.
The more realistic question is, if you can't deal with the grind why are you playing an MMOG? I think there's a bit of disbelief among buyers that if they suddenly have unlimited funds / a max level character that the game will be fun. The truth is often quite the opposite, because it's simply a different grind after that (faction, honor, etc).
I think it is the MMO part and not the RPG part. MMOs are the only games that really have a gigantic world with tens of thousands of people interacting in a persistant game world. Teamwork and community are a big part of MMO, something you don't get from logging on and playing a game of starcraft with a single friend of yours. Moreover, they have unique content not found in other games.I don't think it is the content that is the problem so much as the repitition and the emphasis on constant gear progression (the RPG part). If developers didn't introduce massive gear inequality, people wouldn't feel the need to rush through their content. And if they put out content more often (hired more devs, relied on player driven content) then there wouldn't be so much repitition.
I think your right that none of the current MMOs out there offer what people are looking for. The only one I can think of is Guild Wars, but I've tried that game and it has very unfun clunky interface and movement. Also it is too instanced.
People have invested a lot into their toons, they have friends in a game. They have a hard time letting go, and they would rather the game changed to something they liked more. I don't think that is going to happen with the current crop, we have to see if new games are as innovative as they claim.
I admitt i tried cheating once because i was too lazy to level up my own character. But i was also too lazy to figure out how to get the bot program to work, hehe....
_____________________________
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
Rich Cook
Actually this is not true. Just like so many others you are making assumptions without actual proof.
You are saying that someone who has to spend $50 US on 100 gold would be more prone to waste it than someone who farmed it. This is a false statement. That 100 gold now has a real dollar cost for the buyer and he will have to pay more in the future to get it back. They are actually LESS likely to bloat the economy as they are much more frugal with their gold.
The people who power game jack the economy. Those people who spend 6 - 12 hours a day spend insane amounts of in game cash on items to tweek themselves just that fraction more. They also have the time to jack the prices and wait for the desperate buyer in auction houses.
If anything farmers and gold buyers bring down the cost of items in the economy as they want fast sales.
I have never farmed or bought gold, but I see no issue with either. I see game addiction as a much more important topic for discussion as most people who rant about this stuff do have an addiction and need help.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
There is absolutely no need for anyone to buy gold when playing WoW. If you can't put in the hours, don't expect great rewards, this works for nearly any activity/hobby.
I play Vanguard, as you may guess from my sig.... i have seen what dupes/gold sellers can do to an economy..... crafters are selling things at truly unreasonable prices because they can, because of the dupes and goldsellers..... lvl 10 - 20 items selling for FAR MORE than a character typically has in that level range. gold sellers don't kill economies because of the actually money they inject into the market, but because of the perceived money they introduce, whether actual or otherwise...... as soon as (some of the) crafters / harvesters see an influx of money into the game human greed kicks in and they charge to the highest common denominator. and those that try to sell at reasonable prices get bought out by the gold sellers / greedy crafters and re-listed. example: i put up a sloop at what i thought was a reasonable price, it got bought and relisted by the person who bought it for double what i was asking.
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
ya. ok. whatever.
but what do i know, i'm only a vanbois i'm told.
How bad is the gold selling market in Vanguard?
As far as businesses farming, it wasn't a speck on the radar in SWG when I played. Probably becuase the population was relatively small, there were no free trials, and money was easy to come by anyway. Without the outside businesses involved and without widespread exploits it seemed like no harm, no foul. Of course, we had people who thought that items cost more than their "fair market value", but I've seen that everywhere, even in games without major player crafting components (people "playing" the auction house in WoW comes to mind).
That said, my ambivalence (sp?) to in-game currency sales disappears when you introduce the farmers and exploits. Same with the spamming of outside web sites. At that point they're truly bringing an outside effect into the game, as opposed to someone like me who had no more effect on the game than someone gifting a friend or guildie legit money when they needed it.
For how much of a 'failure' the game is, and how underpopulated the game is i can expect between 10 and fifteen gold teller spams in a four hour play session, usually starting within the first 3 mins of play beginning.
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
ya. ok. whatever.
but what do i know, i'm only a vanbois i'm told.
I find cheating to be really common these days in games, and it's a damn shame.
I understand some of the causes, as noted throughout the multiple colored replies in this thread (it's like Rainbow Road off of Mario Kart, I swear). Poor economic designs, unnecessary time sinks, itemization, etc etc. However, in my book, the cheaters are just as crumby as the game design.
I frown upon the lame excuses cheaters seem to cling to these days too. "I work all day and can't play as much as I'd like", or "I've got a family, so I can't play consistently enough to keep up", or "I want to get ahead". All garbage empathy-seeking excuses in my book. If you work all day, perhaps you should consider shopping for a more casual game. You have a family? Spend that money on your kids, not in-game currency and items that don't even matter in the grand scheme of things. Want to get ahead? Play smart; research your game. Whether you pay for PL's or not, there's ALWAYS going to be the group of people who play for 14 hours a day, 7 days a week. You can't keep up with them; you're not supposed to be able to either.
This is unfortunate too, because it's a problem faced by the gaming community, created by the gaming community. If people weren't using these services, the RMT market wouldn't exist. It's sad to me too; I remember when people played games because they liked them, and they were fun. Nowadays, it seems if people can't have the best gear, be the highest level, in the best guild, with the coolest PvP setup, and in the least amount of time, than the game's not worth playing.
In my humble opinion, I blame this on the lack of community in modern MMO's. When people log in to a game, and encounter a friendly, social atmosphere, it's not as big of a deal to hit the level cap, or get the phat lewt, or whatever the hell else is entailed in the game. Nowadays, games focus on timesinks (making leveling tedious and monotonous), incessant gear grinding (WoW is a FANTASTIC example of gear grinding), and pandering to the junkie-elitists (the folks who only talk on Ventrilo to their guilds, and play allllll day).
The only way to counter RMT, in my opinion, is to have devs actively engaging the player base in the game. Let's face it; players can spot the gold-sellers/bot-farmers/power-levelers faster than anyone else. I mean really, I know in FFXI for example, it was a joke when it came to spotting a guy. They'd be on for days at a time, farming, non-stop.
Also, I believe T.O.S. need to be re-constructed. Most games and the CSR's only seem to ban folks if they're not at the keyboard. However, just because a person is running scripts/bots doesn't mean that they can't chime in to say "Hello!". Bans for suspicious activities or prolonged log-in times would be an effective counter-measure to RMT players and services, in my opinion.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Actually... in a closed economy, like a MMO, MOST players do not tradeskill or gather. Those that do like to tradeskill and "follow the market" can in some ways keep up with inflation in game, but that is the minority, maybe 20% of the population at most. So the players, the majority, that do not cheat and buy gold have to rely on quests and grinding to make the gold needed to buy what they need or want. Quests and grinding is STATIC. These are controlled by in-game mechanics to allow said player to make a certain amount of in game money with time spent. The harder and longer the quest, or difficulty of grind content, the higher the payoff. This is controlled by the rewards and vendors that buy the trash and body drops and bind equipment you get from quests and mobs.
So ~80% of the player base is making money at a predetermined rate coded by the game and CANNOT keep up with inflation that is exemplified by outside means, namely, gold buying. If you don't "play the market" or have an interest in tradeskilling to keep up, you will be left behind. (Which btw even quickens the need to "buy gold", grind more, or do things in game that you do not enjoy to keep up) Even a lot of those that do tradeskill, and used to enjoy it, might now not enjoy it as the "grind" in tradeskilling has been increased by the inflation.
Buying gold does ruin the economy by increasing the inflation in an economy that WILL inflate. There is no stopping inflation in a game that has a closed economy, but buying gold increases that rate by introducing an outside variable that cannot be controlled by game developers through money sinks and vendor pricing (and expansions/updates that keep raising the bar to introduce new product that is superior to old product). So now players that do not cheat cannot keep up, and their money from normal questing and "grinding" is worthless because others are gaining gold to spend on inflated products through other means.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Because some MMORPGS are made for losers and require a big time investment that ordinary(non high school kids) people can't put in.
Who is to say what is cheating anyway.. If you look at WoW and all the mods that people NEED to actually compete in PvE... you could consider mods cheating. I dont have a problem with people who buy gold, buy powerlevels, etc. I understand some people cant put in the amount of time they'd like to. Personally I like to level up myself w/o having some chinese person do it for me.
Sorry to pick on you as this post is going to answer several posts attitude, but you made a pretty big statement there (especially on a forum for MMO's
).
It is cheating because SoE, Blizzard, Turbine, and etc. SAID so. Also, the very meaning of the word cheat:
n.
Cheating in a video game to circumvent "the boring parts" or the "time consuming parts" is such a weak excuse. If you don't like the game, then don't play it. There is this button called cancel, you press it, tell them your concerns and move on to a game you CAN play. Just because you don't want to play the parts of the game that "force" you to exchange time for money or skill for time, it doesn't give you the right to destroy the game for thousands or millions of other players that DO enjoy the game, and play it like it's supposed to. Find another game, don't play a game, whatever it takes, but if you don't want to do it, DON'T, QUIT. Go away!!
There are TONS of single player games, and even some multiplayer that you can jump right in, or even use cheat codes and it doesn't affect anyone else. No one cares that you cheat at Mario Bros., or FEAR, or Halflife, or Sims 2, or Baldur's Gate, because it doesn't affect anyone else. Other people DO play in an MMO, and it does affect them, so do them, and youself a favor and quit. Cancel your subscription and find something else. It surely does not make any sense to play a game you don't enjoy.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Because some MMORPGS are made for losers and require a big time investment that ordinary(non high school kids) people can't put in.
Who is to say what is cheating anyway.. If you look at WoW and all the mods that people NEED to actually compete in PvE... you could consider mods cheating. I dont have a problem with people who buy gold, buy powerlevels, etc. I understand some people cant put in the amount of time they'd like to. Personally I like to level up myself w/o having some chinese person do it for me.
Sorry to pick on you as this post is going to answer several posts attitude, but you made a pretty big statement there (especially on a forum for MMO's
).
It is cheating because SoE, Blizzard, Turbine, and etc. SAID so. Also, the very meaning of the word cheat:
n.
Cheating in a video game to circumvent "the boring parts" or the "time consuming parts" is such a weak excuse. If you don't like the game, then don't play it. There is this button called cancel, you press it, tell them your concerns and move on to a game you CAN play. Just because you don't want to play the parts of the game that "force" you to exchange time for money or skill for time, it doesn't give you the right to destroy the game for thousands or millions of other players that DO enjoy the game, and play it like it's supposed to. Find another game, don't play a game, whatever it takes, but if you don't want to do it, DON'T, QUIT. Go away!!
There are TONS of single player games, and even some multiplayer that you can jump right in, or even use cheat codes and it doesn't affect anyone else. No one cares that you cheat at Mario Bros., or FEAR, or Halflife, or Sims 2, or Baldur's Gate, because it doesn't affect anyone else. Other people DO play in an MMO, and it does affect them, so do them, and youself a favor and quit. Cancel your subscription and find something else. It surely does not make any sense to play a game you don't enjoy.
Did it ever occur to you that people enjoy OTHER parts of the game, not the farming?
Seems it didnt.
How does a guy farming for 10 hours for money not ruin the game, but someone buying money from someone who farmed for 10 hours ruin it? Both had someone farm for 10 hours, both are using 10 hours worth of money. The impact on the game = 0.
The only thing that DOES ruin a game, is monopolizing ala FFXI last year. That screws up the economy, but normal players do that too.
Games don't have to require you to play 40 hours a week, and they don't have to reward power gamers for playing that much. Simply saying that anyone who can't play 40+ a week shouldn't play MMOs is a cop out. Games could be designed so that there wasn't much benefit to constantly grinding, that the gear difference between hardcore and normal play wasn't so vast, they could take out the timesinks. There is nothing horrible about stat caps, diminshing returns, or non-statistical advancement.
Some say without the timesinks people would finish and quit. I disagree. If a games content is enjoyable people will play. Developers can add new content at a reasonable pace, or rely on player driven content. I've never seen someone say they were going to stop playing frisbee cause they could only play 10 hours a week. People don't have to spend every waking moment doing one thing to enjoy it. Maybe there are a few power gamers out there whose joy is having things other people don't have, but they are a small part of any games population. Most people just want to keep up and play at their own pace.
Games don't have to require you to play 40 hours a week, and they don't have to reward power gamers for playing that much. Simply saying that anyone who can't play 40+ a week shouldn't play MMOs is a cop out. Games could be designed so that there wasn't much benefit to constantly grinding, that the gear difference between hardcore and normal play wasn't so vast, they could take out the timesinks. There is nothing horrible about stat caps, diminshing returns, or non-statistical advancement.
Some say without the timesinks people would finish and quit. I disagree. If a games content is enjoyable people will play. Developers can add new content at a reasonable pace, or rely on player driven content. I've never seen someone say they were going to stop playing frisbee cause they could only play 10 hours a week. People don't have to spend every waking moment doing one thing to enjoy it. Maybe there are a few power gamers out there whose joy is having things other people don't have, but they are a small part of any games population. Most people just want to keep up and play at their own pace.
That's not what I said at all.My gripe is associated with the growing belief that casual gamers should be rewarded, while hardcore gamers should be punished; a sentiment which I disagree with on a personal level. As I said in my post, there's no way people should be keeping up with that 5% of gamers who cap out and clear the content in a month. They play the game more, they're going to have better loot than the average players. That's life.
I can't tell game developers to punish a player for having no social life outside of the game; if they choose to spend 40+ hours a week on a game, more power to the them. The point I was trying to make is that most of the people who engage in the use of RMT, in my opinion and through my person observations, are trying to keep up with the die-hard players. This is stupid. If people realized that 95% of the gaming community isn't out there to rush through the game, they'd probably be more content with their natural pace. But no, everyone wants to be as good as "that guy" with the 6 elite sets of gear, capped out skills, tons of gold, and everything else. They just don't want to work for it. Don't fault the guy with too much free time; fault the lazy asses out there who want instant gratification for little-to-no work.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...