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The lost art of 'walking'
sekrog
Member Posts: 261
A few months ago I was playing in the closed BETA for LotRO, when the subject of gameworld size came up in general chat. The dispute carried on for a half-hour or so, with one side defending Turbine saying that the world was indeed 'big' and the other berating the developer for making a world that could be traversed in a few hours...instead of weeks as in the Tolkein novels.
Then, someone had the sense to bring up the fact that in all MMO's our characters are endowed with endless endurance for running. In fact, in some games our toons are able to run at breakneck speed for indefinite periods of time. Therefore, he explained, that it is virtually impossible for a developer to build a 'true-to-life' model of Middle Earth because everyone travels at 30 MPH (50 kph) wherever and whenever they please.
Now someone on the other side retorted by weakly arguing that horses could be used to travel faster...before someone tactfully reminded him that horses do not have the natural ability to run for hundreds of miles without tiring either.
So...do we really NEED to run everywhere in MMO's? Is it possible to create a game that wouldn't bore people to death traveling between locales at actual human walking speed (5 mph)? Wouldn't be interesting to add the element of endurance and speed into the equation when trying to evade an enemy? How many Casters would sit back and comfortably volley fireballs at their foe when they knew that an agile Scout or Rogue class would have no problem running down the cowardly bastard? And Tanks...well, how many Tanks could walk from Hobbiton to Rivendell in full Plate or Chain Armor?
Anyway, I KNOW the vast majority of players wish to avoid realism in their games...especially MMORPG's. Still, would their be any value in reintroducing some 'closer to life' physics into gameplay in order to increase the challenge of our games?
Please don't simply flame this post with the same old arguments defending the lack of realism in games because they are JUST GAMES. I get that...really I do...and so do most of the others in our gaming community. All I'm hoping to achieve is some thoughtful discussion regarding the merits and drawbacks of actual 'physics' in an MMORPG. I'm NOT asking anyone to agree with me...just looking for a healthy exchange of ideas.
Comments
HEHE.
If you want a HUGE world, try to traverse Vanguard on foot North to South.
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WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
I really don't care if the world is huge or not, honestly...I'm more curious what would be the positives and negatives with introducing real-world physics into an MMORPG. Could it be done? Is it possible, if implemented properly, that it would improve certain aspects of the game experience?
Vangaurd is pretty big. I find I have less patience these days for travel then I once did when I played EQ. The problem is a lot of people aren't interested in exploring. Everyone likes differnt things. The good thing about long travel distances was it was a while before I had seen all of EQ. On top of the long travel it was difficult because you had to go through mid level areas to get to the next newbie area sometimes. This kept eveyrone spread out a bit for a while. In WoW and LOTRO you can go whereever you want to go which makes doing all the quests and seeing all the places right off the bat pretty easy. Theres nothing wrong with that of course, but the game does has less replayability because of it.
Again, I'm not so concerned about the size of the gameworld. Instead, (my argument must have been worded poorly) I'm more curious about the implications of reintroducing real-world physics into gameplay...not just travel. If implemented with some dramatic innovation, is it possible that it could actually IMPROVE gameplay?
The difficulty with adding in any true world physics of anykind to an MMO is ensuring that all players see the same thing. That requires physics to be handled either by the first player and broadcasted results, or the physics take place on a server and broadcast. The server side is a bit of work as most MMO's servers do not physically draw the world, but simply manage the data in a 1 and 0 sense.
Also, a rule of thumb for most designers is: If a player has the option of run or walk, they always choose run.
I'm quite the opposite, I WANT more realism into the game... Why? Because I view MMO as another world where I live another live that I can't do in the real world.
As for the question of the content that won't bored people? It all depends on the mindset of the people and what the game has to offer. Think of it this way, if the game is design in a way you can truly interact with the game world with your avatar, then people would at least try to do it, even if it is at least once. If they find it fun, they will continue to do so. I know that many games are trying to make the graphic to be more appeal and real to players to help the players to feel immersed into the game world, and that is good.
I like the idea that MMORPG can be in a way, a large world where there are so many things to be experienced, but at a reasonable speed. Also, if you want more realistic travel speed in game, it must have a purpose.
One of the reason why people want to get to places fast is because they are in it for the fun, not the work. And mostly fun in ways get equate to instant gratification. Until there is a system that can produce fun not through the idea of instant gratification, the avatars will continue to travel as it is right now (run without getting tired....)
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Absolutely true...but what would happen if he only had a limited endurance for running? (i.e. real life) My suggestion is that introducing real-world physics has the potential to add a HUGE tactical element into gameplay.
do not overlook the basic question:
Does it add FUN to the experience. personally, I would walking adds nothing but more time between getting to locations. Some games have done some interesting things in this area to experiment, but nothing too game altering. in LOTRO when you jump down a steep cliff, your character runs slower and with a limp mimmicing them being wounded from the fall. Its interesting, but affects nothing in the end.
To answer your question directly, in my opinion I do not see that it adds anything of benefit to the types of games we see now, and I doubt its a large enough change to create a game based on this mechanic.
now forcan does have a point. but there is an acceptable amount of realism that can be put into the game (though that would be an awesome game). Now. the thing is that if we put more realism into a game, people will want more until the game is fully realistic. the want for more is a human basis. so, just try to put enough realism in so people are content. but added realism would be a nice feature.
I think characters should move at a fast walk, a power walk if you will, outside of combat ( about 3 mph), in combat they should run, which is really more like a fast jog (about 6 mph), but they should also be able to sprint in combat, which is flat out running as fast as you can (something like 12 mph). walking and jogging shouldn't take energy/endurance/stamina, but sprinting should, how much would depend on character stats.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Agree with the "want more" fight you face in doing this. I do agree there can be some realism baked into a game and not be "real" with art style playing a role in that. Really what I think you are asking for is
"Logical realism"
What I mean by that is in your mind, if I do X, Y should happen. Games tend to neglect this, especially in an MMO.
Personally I'm all for more realism in my games but some people like to use games as a way to do anything. In games they like to know they can do whatever they want without real world effects hindering them. Developers may take this into thought. Not sure just what I think.
The biggest dilemma is travel time is used as a time sink. People don't want to have to travel for 2 hours just to get to where they want to fight. EQ was really bad about this when you wanted to go from Freeport to Qeynos. If you didn't have a Sow, your day was shot. West Karana was painful to travel through.
Unfortunately, there is really no way to make the travel time enjoyable because it will always seem like a way to just keep a person playing the game longer by stretching out the time it takes them to advance. A huge world is a nice thought, but I don't really think it's a wise choice to pursue in a genre that has enough time sinks as it is.
Before you say it...ASIAN GRINDFEST !!!
Ok now that's out of the way , Metin2 does have stamina bar which prevents you from running top speed 100% of the time.
Also Horses can die if not fed regularly, they also have a stamina bar so overuse means it has to be stabled until fully rested ( so your back to running until then ).
Although not a huge gaming world as newer mmos have it's a nice little touch.I know it's not up there with the major players but sometimes those koreans do come up with nice ideas.
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Excellent point, and I totally agree that it wouldn't benefit the types of games we see NOW. A game would have to introduce a revolutionary change in their 'gameworld' and game mechanics in order for this to have any utility.
IMO, revolutionary change is EXACTLY what the MMORPG gaming world needs...no more wash, rinse, repeat.
I'm not certain that real-world mechanics would make an improvement...I lean that way, but the reason I started this thread was to get some feedback from others.
P.S. Not in response to you, Ramsie...but just to reiterate...this is NOT a post about the SIZE of gameworlds...it's about their certain aspects of their mechanics.
I doubt this is a good idea, most people these days are too impatient (including me), and want to get everywhere reliatively quickly unless travel itself is made really fun and involving in some way (And in every MMO, it really isn't its just a time-sink.) If I wanted to walk everywhere for the sake for realism and enjoy the scenery I'll take a bush hike in RL. Hopefully in future MMOs they'll be more revoltionary and actually make travel FUN.
True to scale design is not bad if properly done. In this case, lets take on possible scenerio: medieval-like.
You, the player, are in a little hamlet of X (whatever X is) and to continue on your task to do Y (whatever Y is) you have to get location Z. Now, you have choices. By foot, the road is long and dangerous, full of brigands, strange cults, and natural dangers (wolves, flash floods, and etc). This path may be fun for those looking at the journey as the destination. By horse, costly if you haven't the coin or a commodity to trade, plus it takes skill to handle a horse as one wrong move could startle the beast and leave you stranded. By "coach" (or other transit), oddly, this choice is the middle path of travel choices for you as a player. It still takes time (from waiting for the coach to arrive, but not the actual travel of the coach from X to Z), but it's worth it if you're unfamiliar with the territory or not very skilled in riding a horse. All three options could still exist, all three would not break continuity of such a medieval game. And all three are easily coded even in current MMO designs. It would allow for real true-to-scale environments full of content for players to explore on their own and the option to skip it via the "coach"/alternative transit choice. And it would not become a time sink.
-- Brede
I've always preferred UO's style of Mark and Recall. Let me explore when I want to, mark a location to return, and return there instantly any time I want to. I've never seen a system I've liked better since.
That being said, I wish the next generation of MMORPG would incorporate a system like this:
The game has almost "real-world" physics in ways that you can only travel in normal speed (You could travel faster by various method, but some cost money, other cost endurance and would differ in the distance they can go.) And today, you are the player, and picked up a quest (not the mission/quest type you see right now, but a true idea of a quest - a long journey.) And it is said that in order to find out more about this certain thing, you must travel to the nearest city. You don't have enough money, and you don't have the skills to travel faster for long time, so you start walking. (BTW, there is no minimaps, and you have to collect/buy the maps, or explore and discover each location on your own.) While you are on the road, there will be NPC travelers, and you can actually hitch a ride from them (and here's the interesting part). If you do, you will discover certain side mission where there many be bandits/monsters that will attack the travelers and you can help protecting them with the best of your ability, or run (if you are not strong, you can choose to run instead of fight). This would work into a idea of reputation system based on the small missions that you do, and it is in some ways interesting and each players have enough choices to travel and experience the game.
Well, that's my dream, to either play a system like that, or to develop a system like that.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
As you'll soon find out some mmorpg players are like a bottomless pit of.....bottomless...ecious....ness
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Some people want certain aspects of a game to be real, but can't handle other things being realistic. Like you mentioned, they want to be able to take weeks to go from one side to the other, but running down the trail to the old oake tree
to take less than 30 seconds.
You really can't please them, they want the best of both worlds, but we know life doesn't work that way...and NIETHER SHOULD MMOs.
You could possibly make a game in which the longer you travel the slower you go (obviously not slow motion, just the change of scenery etc.), so that if u want to travel to the another town it takes some time, but if you just want to run to the river or w/e it is within reasonable time (i dunno if anyone can undestand wat i mean)
Unless locations were closer together or travelling was somehow made fun, making travelling take longer is just taking away enjoyment from the game. Personally, I find having to walk about a lot, over the same ground, probably the most tedious part of MMORPGs.
If you've ever played Horizons, you'll know about the floating disc which you can buy, which allows you to carry more harvested materials. It makes you walk slower and you can't go through teleporters with it. I guess the aim is to add some kind of restrictions to counteract the extra storage. What it actually does is make it so that you need the patience of a saint and have plenty of spare time if you want to become a worthwhile crafter.
I tried out WWII online, and just couldn't stand the whole idea of walking for half an hour in some cases, just to find the battle (only to be shot dead within a minute or two). How is that fun?
Eve put me right off for similar reasons. Just as well the inter-planitary travel doesn't take light years though.
The original table-top RPGs never had this issue, because the GM could just say "you travel for 3 days". Bethesda's way of fast-travelling in Oblivion worked the same way, and makes a huge difference to game play. You just can't do that in a multiplayer world, so anything the devs can do to make travel less of a time-sink can only imporve these games, even if it's a move away from realism.
I think this comes down to basics really. If the game is PVE then no, it makes the gameplay worse because people want to get from the quest giver to the quest area fast and back.
BUT, in open world PVP realism in battle is very important. If attackers and defenders can just teleport into the battle anywhere they like, tactics and strategy go out the window. For example, what is the point in taking a choke point like bridge and holding it, if the opposition can simple teleport beyond it.
So I think terrain, a land's physical size, and moving accross it realistically, is essential to good PVP. In PVE its just a matter of cosmetics and is not essential.
As an aside, I was a little worried when I heard how teleport gates were going to be used in WAR. But I think it maybe ok after reading more about it.
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Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu
I enjoy realism in games. It adds to immersion, it makes the game more challenging, which in turn makes the game more fun for me.
Classic EQ1 had a huge world and before Planes of Power allowed anyone to teleport anywhere, you had limited teleportation with druids and wizards. When you start making speedy travel the norm, it makes the world small and hastens people burning thru content.
The way classic EQ1 kept real travel times viable was the amount of rare outdoor spawns that existed and would never be encountered unless you traveled thru those areas often. Also the community back then was such, that traveling was a way to encounter others.
You would also become encumbered weight wise in classic EQ1 if you carried and wore too much weight based on your strength level which didn't slow your attacks but slowed movement. I think those types of considerations are good in a MMOG. The opportunity cost of heavy armor vs light weight and mobility has also been a factor in warfare.
Exactly, travel is boring if you know nothing will happen. But if there can be thiefs, creatures, sea storms, monsters, rare spawns, etc, travel is not so boring, is an adventure in itself.
I'm up for realism, stamina that decreases when you jump (EQ had this) or when you run (never seen that), having to eat and drink (EQ had this), realistic falling damage (EQ), items with weight (EQ), and so on.
By the way, 50kph is exagerated in my opinion.
You may not like World War II as a subject matter and you may think the graphics are out of date, but a game does exist that has the qualities you seek.
Go download a 14 day free trial of Battleground Europe: WWII Online.
The game is all on one zone free, universal server, the largest on the internet covering most of Western Europe at 1/2 scale.
You do have endurance in the game, so you can only run for very short periods.
You really need to aim in the game, there is no auto targeting.
There are no hit points for damage. People and equipment have been modeled to take real world damage.
There are real world physics in place with regard to distance, gravity, wind resistance, structural surfaces, etc.
So go try it and see if you like reality in a game.
Its not so much an RPG as it is a simulator.
LINK: http://www.wwiionline.com/scripts/wwiionline/be_info.jsp
"Don't corpse-camp that idea. Its never gonna rez"
Bladezz (The Guild)