i could just open a thread with that 2 screnns named WOW is an AC2 CLONE. since they copied most things from ac2. pitty 99% of wow players never knew about that game so they think wow was the first lol
Posted in the spirit of irony and sarcasm, that would be beautiful.
Unfortunately, I think it would fly right over some people's heads; they'd completely miss the point.
Then again, maybe you aren't as smart as you appear to think you are. WoW is the biggest MMO in the world right now, its logical to use WoW as a basis for comparison, since so many of us have played it. Your attempt to dismiss the "LOTRO is a clone" claim by trying to imply that the people who say that haven't played other MMOs, applies to very few people in my experience.
Did I say anywhere that it's illogical to *compare* the games? Nope. I didn't. I pointed out that it's unreasonable to claim that Turbine has *cloned* anything from WoW, as is widely claimed. Two different words. Two different meanings.
You can stick your fingers in your ears and jump up and down screaming that LOTRO isn't like WoW all you like, the truth is, its almost identical in all but the skin.
Beginning to think you completely missed the point...
Ok, lets say Turbine did rip them selves off instead with AC2, so its better that LOTRO is a clone of AC2? Ah, so its ok to be a clone, long as WoW isn't mentionedBesides, the UI is a tiny part of a game in the big picture, everything else besides the graphics of LOTRO is a direct clone of WoW, ok, maybe WoW took its UI from Turbine in the first place, but they also made a game around it. Then Turbine took WoW, put a LOTRO skin on it and called it a day.
Yep... you completely missed the point.
I was saying that if one were to claim one company has *cloned* its design ideas from another game, that it would make more sense to say Turbine stole from AC2 (themselves) than it would to say they stole from WoW. The interface, as well as some things I didn't list have more in common with AC2 - a game that came out 2 years before WoW - than with WoW itself.
As for the interface comment. You're right. It is only one specific thing. It's also the only thing I cited for the sake of brevity, and because it's one example I often see brought up of how "LoTRO copied WoW". Just to appease you, however, I'll continue to list more things that AC2, as well as other MMOs, had - 2+ years before WoW. Contrary to popular belief, all design decisions do not lead back to WoW.
Ready? Here goes...
- Tier-based Crafting System - AC2 had this.
- A unique world and lore based on a proprietary IP - AC2 had this
- The ability to co-exist with thousands of others in the same world - AC2 had this.
- Harvesting of materials for crafting - AC2 had this.
- Zone and/or Faction-based PvP - AC2 had this.
- Quests - AC2 had this.
- Skill trees - AC2 had this as the core of character development; it didn't have distinct classes.
- Weather - Yep, AC2 had that too
- Raid type content - AC2 had this
- Character levels - AC2 had this
- WASD/Mouse based control - AC2 had this
- Pet classes - AC2 had this
- Summonable mounts - AC2 had this
- Travel system allowing players to get around faster - AC2 had this, via its "Ringway" networks.
- Player Parties - AC2 had this
- Ability to form guilds - AC2 had this
- A world map - AC2 had this
- Ranged/Magic/Melee based skills - AC2 had this.
- Dungeons, Forests, Open Fields, Swamps, Mountains, etc. - AC2 had all this.
- A World Map that shows player position - AC2 had this.
- A Compass indicating direction and the location of NPCs, etc - AC2 had this.
- Music system - A casual activity that is an expanded version of something that was in AC2 as well.
Is the picture a little clearer now? I'll spell it out further, just in case it isn't.
As I said before, were I ignorant enough to believe that WoW's setup is largely stolen from AC2, I certainly could, using the same narrow-minded logic many (not all) WoW fans use when making such arguments. However, I'm not that ignorant. As I stated, AC2 itself wasn't the first nor only MMO to implement those elements, either. Those are all common conventions to most all MMORPGs and have existed since long before WoW hit the scene. In other words, a MMO having any combination of those features does not make them a "WoW Clone" because WoW has them.
In fact, Blizzard has themselves said that they didn't seek to bring anything new to the genre, but to take what they felt were the best elements of it from other games and combine them into a more streamlined and accessible game. And that's exactly what they did, quite successfully. They have, thus, popularized the "casual friendly MMORPG" and brought the genre into the mainstream in a big way (whether that's good or not is subjective). You will never hear me discredit them with that.
My comment that WoW must have been the only MMO they've played is because it would seem logical to me that someone who had played other MMOs, specifically those pre-dating WoW, and experienced all those common elements, wouldn't so quickly assume a new MMO is specifically a "WoW Clone". This is particularly so in the case of people who use the phrase "WoW clone" in a dismissive way... as though WoW introduced any core element to the genre that had never existed before in some form.
So is it fair to say other MMOs are "similar" to WoW? Sure. Just as WoW bears similarities to many MMOs before it. But to say anything similar to WoW is merely "a clone", as though it's not a legitimate game unto itself is an extremely short-sighted and disingenuous statement to make. I'm not saying *you* have said that, Die_Scream.. But plenty of others certainly have, and the examples they've used as "proof" are, as I said, sorely misinformed or overstated. It's those specific comments by those specific people that I am addressing.
To be fair, and to dissuade any would-be "OMG Fanboy!" comments (though I still expect them).. there are a couple things I credit Blizzard with (though they may have been introduced in another game that I'm not aware of):
- Rested XP - I'm not a fan of this personally, but in the interest in making a game more casual-friendly, I can see the point in it. Helps make leveling and keeping up with others easier.
- Discovery XP - Prior to WoW and/or EQII.. .I don't recall any other MMOs having this - again, none that I played anyway. Not really a fan of this either. Also helps make leveling faster.
- "Accomplish something in 30 minutes or less" - A cornerstone, I think, of the casual-friendly approach. You can literally log into WoW (or LoTRO, or CoX, etc), do a quest or two and log out; at least up to a point. Other MMOs have had some "quick" content, but not to such a great degree. Again, of course this seems to be the case up 'til end-game in WoW.
- Highly Soloable - At least up to a point (ie. end-game), WoW's the first MMO I've ever played where you can solo practically the way up. Again, other MMOs have content that can be solo'd but none had ever made it so prominent.
Those are some things, off the top of my head, that prior to WoW and the "casual friendly" approach, I hadn't seen before.
They did take the time to change some things, like crafting and PVMP.
They implemented crafting and a form of PvP - just like dozens of other MMOs before them. WoW's implementation isn't unique. Nor is LotRO's. Again, this isn't "evolved" or "dervied" from WoW, it's a common element in MMORPGs in general.
Look, I can agree that for what it is, LOTRO is a good game, but it is what it is. Another on-rails, easy to play, (but not to often, you powergamer scum!!1) MMO brought to us for the bubble-gum "me-too" ultra casual crowd who loves WoW.
Right... it's a casual-friendly game for people who aren't seeking a "hardcore" gaming experience. I've never claimed otherwise.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
i could just open a thread with that 2 screnns named WOW is an AC2 CLONE. since they copied most things from ac2. pitty 99% of wow players never knew about that game so they think wow was the first lol
Posted in the spirit of irony and sarcasm, that would be beautiful.
Unfortunately, I think it would fly right over some people's heads; they'd completely miss the point.
Then again, maybe you aren't as smart as you appear to think you are. WoW is the biggest MMO in the world right now, its logical to use WoW as a basis for comparison, since so many of us have played it. Your attempt to dismiss the "LOTRO is a clone" claim by trying to imply that the people who say that haven't played other MMOs, applies to very few people in my experience.
Did I say anywhere that it's illogical to *compare* the games? Nope. I didn't. I pointed out that it's unreasonable to claim that Turbine has *cloned* anything from WoW, as is widely claimed. Two different words. Two different meanings.
You can stick your fingers in your ears and jump up and down screaming that LOTRO isn't like WoW all you like, the truth is, its almost identical in all but the skin.
Beginning to think you completely missed the point...
I stand by my impression that LOTRO is more like WoW than any other MMO available right now.
Ok, lets say Turbine did rip them selves off instead with AC2, so its better that LOTRO is a clone of AC2? Ah, so its ok to be a clone, long as WoW isn't mentioned Besides, the UI is a tiny part of a game in the big picture, everything else besides the graphics of LOTRO is a direct clone of WoW, ok, maybe WoW took its UI from Turbine in the first place, but they also made a game around it. Then Turbine took WoW, put a LOTRO skin on it and called it a day.
Yep... you completely missed the point.
I was saying that if we are going to claim a company has *cloned* its design ideas from another game, that it would make more sense to say Turbine stole from themselves since the interface, as well as some things I didn't list have more in common with AC2 - a game that came out 2 years before WoW - than with WoW itself. In other words, to just outright call it a "WoW Clone" is a short-sighted and uninformed comment to make.
Alright, LOTRO is more of an AC2 clone then? Either way, its nothing new in a genre with a glut of fantasy twin games. WoW stole from AC2 and EQ etc, then LOTRO stole from WoW, its same thing. Point being, LOTRO offers nothing that we haven’t been playing for years, including WoW, EQ(1&2), AC2 etc.
As for the interface comment. You're right. It is only one specific thing. It's also the only thing I cited for the sake of brevity, and because it's one example I often see brought up of how "LoTRO copied WoW". Just to appease you, however, I'll continue to list more things that AC2, as well as other MMOs, had - 2+ years before WoW. Contrary to popular belief, all design decisions do not lead back to WoW.
As the most wildly successful MMO in history, with something like 9 million subs (arguable), and the most well known name, even to people unlike us who don’t follow MMOs, its reasonable I think that every company would not like a piece of that pie. I highly doubt any design team making a fantasy based MMO today doesn’t look at what made WoW the juggernaught it is. Sure, Blizz took what was fun, and threw away what wasn’t from the games before it, but they got it right, so right in fact WoW changed the entire genre forever. BTW, I haven’t played WoW in a year or more, so don’t think I’m a fan.
Ready? Here goes...
- Tier-based Crafting System - AC2 had this.
- A unique world and lore based on a proprietary IP - AC2 had this
- The ability to co-exist with thousands of others in the same world - AC2 had this.
- Harvesting of materials for crafting - AC2 had this.
- Zone and/or Faction-based PvP - AC2 had this.
- Quests - AC2 had this.
- Skill trees - AC2 had this as the core of character development; it didn't have distinct classes.
- Weather - Yep, AC2 had that too
- Raid type content - AC2 had this
- Character levels - AC2 had this
- WASD/Mouse based control - AC2 had this
- Pet classes - AC2 had this
- Summonable mounts - AC2 had this
- Travel system allowing players to get around faster - AC2 had this, via its "Ringway" networks.
- Player Parties - AC2 had this
- Ability to form guilds - AC2 had this
- A world map - AC2 had this
- Ranged/Magic/Melee based skills - AC2 had this.
- Dungeons, Forests, Open Fields, Swamps, Mountains, etc. - AC2 had all this.
- A World Map that shows player position - AC2 had this.
- A Compass indicating direction and the location of NPCs, etc - AC2 had this.
- Music system - A casual activity that is an expanded version of something that was in AC2 as well.
That list took time and is an interesting read. I will say that judging by this, we could argue every MMO that came after AC2 is a clone, but I digress.
Is the picture a little clearer now? I'll spell it out further, just in case it isn't.
As I said before, were I ignorant enough to believe that WoW's setup is largely stolen from AC2, I certainly could, using the same narrow-minded logic many (not all) WoW fans use when making such arguments. However, I'm not that ignorant. As I stated, AC2 itself wasn't the first nor only MMO to implement those elements, either. Those are all common conventions to most all MMORPGs and have existed since long before WoW hit the scene. In other words, a MMO having any combination of those features does not make them a "WoW Clone" because WoW has them.
I haven’t experienced any MMO that is as similar to WoW as LOTRO. WoW could have stolen all their ideas and game mechanics from wherever, but never have I played one MMO that was so hard to distinguish from WoW than LOTRO since WoW was released.
In fact, Blizzard has themselves said that they didn't seek to bring anything new to the genre, but to take what they felt were the best elements of it from other games and combine them into a more streamlined and accessible game. And that's exactly what they did, quite successfully. They have, thus, popularized the "casual friendly MMORPG" and brought the genre into the mainstream in a big way (whether that's good or not is subjective). You will never hear me discredit them with that.
They not only did it successfully, they blew away by a large margin anything that came before it.
My comment that WoW must have been the only MMO they've played is because it would seem logical to me that someone who had played other MMOs, specifically those pre-dating WoW, and experienced all those common elements, wouldn't so quickly assume a new MMO is specifically a "WoW Clone". This is particularly so in the case of people who use the phrase "WoW clone" in a dismissive way... as though WoW introduced any core element to the genre that had never existed before in some form.
So is it fair to say other MMOs are "similar" to WoW? Sure. Just as WoW bears similarities to many MMOs before it. But to say anything similar to WoW is merely "a clone", as though it's not a legitimate game unto itself is an extremely short-sighted and disingenuous statement to make. I'm not saying *you* have said that, Die_Scream.. But plenty of others certainly have, and the examples they've used as "proof" are, as I said, sorely misinformed or overstated. It's those specific comments by those specific people that I am addressing.
To be fair, and to dissuade any would-be "OMG Fanboy!" comments (though I still expect them).. there are a couple things I credit Blizzard with (though they may have been introduced in another game that I'm not aware of):
I don’t find your coments to be “fanboy-ish” at all.
- Rested XP - I'm not a fan of this personally, but in the interest in making a game more casual-friendly, I can see the point in it. Helps make leveling and keeping up with others easier.
I like rested xp, as sometimes I have to go up to a week without playing, and it makes coming back to the game a more pleasant experience, good for Blizz I say.
- Discovery XP - Prior to WoW and/or EQII.. .I don't recall any other MMOs having this - again, none that I played anyway. Not really a fan of this either. Also helps make leveling faster.
Discovery xp is so minor it doesn’t help with leveling after the first couple levels anyway, but it’s a neat feature to see pop up on your screen, and sometimes tells you you are going the right way to the next point of interest/NPC.
- "Accomplish something in 30 minutes or less" - A cornerstone, I think, of the casual-friendly approach. You can literally log into WoW (or LoTRO, or CoX, etc), do a quest or two and log out; at least up to a point. Other MMOs have had some "quick" content, but not to such a great degree. Again, of course this seems to be the case up 'til end-game in WoW.
Despite wanting a deep MMO with some innovation and complexity, I have over 24 months vet rewards in CoX, and continue to subscribe, its my "Accomplish something in 30 minutes or less"MMO.
- Highly Soloable - At least up to a point (ie. end-game), WoW's the first MMO I've ever played where you can solo practically the way up. Again, other MMOs have content that can be solo'd but none had ever made it so prominent.
Those are some things, off the top of my head, that prior to WoW and the "casual friendly" approach, I hadn't seen before.
They did take the time to change some things, like crafting and PVMP.
They implemented crafting and a form of PvP - just like dozens of other MMOs before them. WoW's implementation isn't unique. Nor is LotRO's. Again, this isn't "copied from WoW", it's a common element in MMORPGs in general.
“They” in my above sentence was referring to LOTRO, as in, something they actually made slightly different from WoW.
Look, I can agree that for what it is, LOTRO is a good game, but it is what it is. Another on-rails, easy to play, (but not to often, you powergamer scum!!1) MMO brought to us for the bubble-gum "me-too" ultra casual crowd who loves WoW.
Right... it's a casual-friendly game for people who aren't seeking a "hardcore" gaming experience. I've never claimed otherwise.
That’s for sure! My point is that the difference between this casual-friendly MMO and WoW is negligible.
Regardless of who took what ideas from whom, LOTRO is no more innovative than Its inspiration, WoW, which is a bad thing, considering Turbine released LOTRO 2 years after WoW.
Originally posted by Die_Scream Originally posted by WSIMike Originally posted by Quingu
EDIT: The fonts are all screwed up
lol... and here I thought you did that to me on purpose
Oddly, I don't think you and I are disagreeing at all... just discussing from different angles.
My whole point could well be game agnostic.
Did Turbine opt for a more "casual friendly" game - the market that WoW arguably introduced and popularized (look at me go with the big words... )? Absolutely. And that, to me, that is where all credit to WoW begins and ends where LotRO is concerned, and is the basis of my whole rant. If you'd played AC2 when it was around, I bet you'd have found the "feel" of the game to be similar to WoW as well - because for the most part it had alot of the same basic mechanics intact.
Every other feature found in LoTRO, those I listed and more, existed in some form in other MMOs that came out before WoW. I used AC2 as a specific example because it happens to also be a Turbine game that pre-dates WoW, so it seemed more appropriate to the example. Oh, and that list was off the top of my head... really didn't take long (I also type fast - blame it on the day job .
In particular, the interface example was one given to illustrate that point because I've specifically seen people point out LoTRO's interface as being "stolen" from WoW, which - by those screenshots - is visibly not the case.
I'm trying to put that in context for people whom, by their comments, don't seem to realize - or at least acknowledge - that WoW did not introduce all those things into MMOs. They've been staples of the genre for a while now.
In some round-about way, I'm basically saying "LoTRO does not implement anything from WoW that WoW didn't in turn implement from somewhere else... so it's a pointless case to make."
They're both casual games that share many elements common to MMORPGs. Beyond that, they're different beasts.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Among fruits, i tend to prefer the citrus varieties. Among citrus fruit, oranges and tangerines are my usual favorites (although I'm also a big fan of grapefruit). I recently discovered a variety of orange called a blood orange. It is both sweeter and tangier than a valencia orange, and has slight undrcurrents of strawberries. The flesh is a deep crimson (or streaked with it). When they are in season, i go out of my way to buy them now. I'm even willing to pay two or three times as much as I would pay for Valencias when i find them at a farmer's market.
I could list many similarities between a blood orange and a Valencia (the common grocery store variety you are likely familiar with). But what would be the point? The reasons i like blood oranges have to do with the subtle differences between a blood orange and the ones you can typically buy in an American grocery store. The similarities are irrelevant to me.
Is blood orange so different from a cheap corporate farmed Valencia that someone that hates oranges would like it? No, of course not. Of course, I would also find it odd for some one that dislikes oranges to criticize the blood orange in particular for having characteristics typical of an orange. And such a person should not be surprised when I don't take their opinion of blood oranges (or any orange variety for that matter) very seriously.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
In some round-about way, I'm basically saying "LoTRO does not implement anything from WoW that WoW didn't in turn implement from somewhere else... so it's a pointless case to make." They're both casual games that share many elements common to MMORPGs. Beyond that, they're different beasts.
I agree with the first statement absolutely. I respectfully disagree on the second.
In some round-about way, I'm basically saying "LoTRO does not implement anything from WoW that WoW didn't in turn implement from somewhere else... so it's a pointless case to make." They're both casual games that share many elements common to MMORPGs. Beyond that, they're different beasts.
I agree with the first statement absolutely. I respectfully disagree on the second.
Okay, fair enough Hey we're half-way there.
What do you see as similarities - besides those things that are staples of the MMORPG genre overall - between LoTRO and WoW?
Not being glib here... I'm genuinely curious.
When I say they're two different beasts, I speak from my time having played both, which of course makes it purely my personal view.
Personally, LoTRO feels nothing like WoW to me, and vice versa. The pacing, the world design, the setting, etc. all provide a very different experience.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Among fruits, i tend to prefer the citrus varieties. Among citrus fruit, oranges and tangerines are my usual favorites (although I'm also a big fan of grapefruit). I recently discovered a variety of orange called a blood orange. It is both sweeter and tangier than a valencia orange, and has slight undrcurrents of strawberries. The flesh is a deep crimson (or streaked with it). When they are in season, i go out of my way to buy them now. I'm even willing to pay two or three times as much as I would pay for Valencias when i find them at a farmer's market. I could list many similarities between a blood orange and a Valencia (the common grocery store variety you are likely familiar with). But what would be the point? The reasons i like blood oranges have to do with the subtle differences between a blood orange and the ones you can typically buy in an American grocery store. The similarities are irrelevant to me. Is blood orange so different from a cheap corporate farmed Valencia that someone that hates oranges would like it? No, of course not. Of course, I would also find it odd for some one that dislikes oranges to criticize the blood orange in particular for having characteristics typical of an orange. And such a person should not be surprised when I don't take their opinion of blood oranges (or any orange variety for that matter) very seriously.
Heheh... I love posts like that.
Very well put
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Thank you WSI Mike it's about time someone else starts telling it like it actually is. Of course when someone actually points out IN DETAIL how LOTRO isn't a clone there tends to be a few WoW fanboys that can't read passed a sentence without complaining about the length. Being thorough and covering all your points are the two things people who don't have a base for an argument hate most.
Oh that and the ADD kicks in, a common trait in a hardcore WoW player
Thank you WSI Mike it's about time someone else starts telling it like it actually is. Of course when someone actually points out IN DETAIL how LOTRO isn't a clone there tends to be a few WoW fanboys that can't read passed a sentence without complaining about the length. Being thorough and covering all your points are the two things people who don't have a base for an argument hate most.
Oh that and the ADD kicks in, a common trait in a hardcore WoW player
If you are referring to me, I suggest you get over your WoW hate and read my posts, as I am no fanboy of WoW or any other game.
Thank you WSI Mike it's about time someone else starts telling it like it actually is. Of course when someone actually points out IN DETAIL how LOTRO isn't a clone there tends to be a few WoW fanboys that can't read passed a sentence without complaining about the length. Being thorough and covering all your points are the two things people who don't have a base for an argument hate most.
Oh that and the ADD kicks in, a common trait in a hardcore WoW player
If you are referring to me, I suggest you get over your WoW hate and read my posts, as I am no fanboy of WoW or any other game.
If you aren't referring to me then disregard.
Nahh.. We like ya 'round here, Die. You can voice a stern opinion without resorting to shouting "OMG Fanboy!" at everyone who disagrees with you or, more specifically, doesn't just automatically take everything you say as fact at face value, because you say it is. A certain other person 'round these forums (whom shall remain nameless so as not to taint the discourse) can't seem to grasp that concept very well.
I think forums need people who don't agree... It'd be kinda boring if everyone just agreed all the time.
A: "This game rocks!"
B: "Yeah!"
.
.
.
.
Z: "This is the best game evar!"
...
A: "Sooo... what do we talk about now?"
B: "This game rocks!"
C: "We've already been over that, B"
B: "Oh, yeah. This game has the best graphics!!"
E: "Nope... we covered that in the other thread already"
... and so forth.
As for Druz's comments... Well, I like to think I call it as I see it for the most part. However, there are certain things that are said by some that are just factually wrong, and I've demonstrated the fallacy of at least one of those examples (not that it will stop people from saying it anyway). People can dislike a game and voice that dislike all they want. Just keep a well-defined line between what is opinion and what is fact and don't try to blur the line or mix the two -shrug- That's the way I see it anyway.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Just so you know, all I did was sign up on the open forums, and they happened to be giving keys the next day when I logged in. So I checked the announcement post and applied, boom, I was in. Easiest beta entry ever. Probably just super lucky timing.
Just so you know, all I did was sign up on the open forums, and they happened to be giving keys the next day when I logged in. So I checked the announcement post and applied, boom, I was in. Easiest beta entry ever. Probably just super lucky timing.
Oh nice.. THat is good timing. I remember a few people in my old EQ2 guild were looking into that game. Not sure if they still are or not.
I'm checking out the Spellborn beta myself... though it's been down for a couple weeks. I think they're working out server issues. That game has a few interesting concepts in it. Not 100% sold on it yet... but it looks promising.
But anyway... hmm.. I think we've strayed off topic here a bit O.o
As for the OP... as others have said... If you're looking for a game purely as a hardcore raider, then I would say LoTOR is a bit premature.
If you're a LoTRO fan, don't mind that all of Middle Earth isn't currently in game yet, but what is there provides alot to do, and can enjoy the game in that capacity, you might give it a try anyway.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Oh nice.. THat is good timing. I remember a few people in my old EQ2 guild were looking into that game. Not sure if they still are or not. I'm checking out the Spellborn beta myself... though it's been down for a couple weeks. I think they're working out server issues. That game has a few interesting concepts in it. Not 100% sold on it yet... but it looks promising. But anyway... hmm.. I think we've strayed off topic here a bit O.o As for the OP... as others have said... If you're looking for a game purely as a hardcore raider, then I would say LoTOR is a bit premature. If you're a LoTRO fan, don't mind that all of Middle Earth isn't currently in game yet, but what is there provides alot to do, and can enjoy the game in that capacity, you might give it a try anyway.
Last off topic post, heh:
I am currently beta testing Chronicals of Spellborn, Tabula Rasa, and Gods and Heroes, along with playing CoX and EQ2. Plus posting in each games forums, and here as well, I think my computer chair is permanently stuck to my ass!
EDIT: Though I haven't been in Chronicals for a few weeks, sounds like I haven't missed much if its been down.
Anyway, I quit WOW shortly before the 1st x-pac. I was pissed that Blizzard showed such contempt for the time serious players had invested in character development when they basically rendering all existing gear (and rep) junk in the x-pac.
At the risk of drawing flames from all the LotRO fans if what you said here describes your play preference you would HATE LotRO. Unless things have changed dramatically since I played in the open BETA the game is not at all about creating distinguished characters, with gear or otherwise. I mean all characters have differences but it is more like they are all slight variations on the pre-produced characters made by the game. None of the skills or gear really make a character unique, not in the sense that would satisfy someone who would say something such as you did above.
Originally posted by hercules
I be honest with you.If you are anything but the most casual raider forget lotro. It certainly is not for hardcore raiders
Agree - for better or worse LotRO is casual in most every regard.
Originally posted by WSIMike
Man, I didn't know people got so worked up over someone calling a game the play a WoW clone. Did WoW pee in your cheerios?
Not at all. I own WoW. Have played it quite a bit and think it's a well-designed game.
Ignorant people repeating a mantra they can't even back-up, however, irk me - in any capacity.
Now, question... Did you have a real point to make here?
I will agree with you on this even if I understand why people tend to frame their commentary that way. WoW has come to be the pop music of MMOs - as with pop music it is obviously successful and popular but allot of contrarians will rebel against it for just that reason. I never played WoW, what I heard about it just never appealed to me - I did try LotRO through open BETA before cancelling my pre-order though and from what I can gather it seems they are of similar types even if the 'clone' calls are a bit much. Both WoW and LotRO seem to be pop music MMOs so people who don't like WoW, given its succes in the genre, will degrade other MMOs by invoking its name. I repfer to comment on an game by its own merits or flaws and allways try to frame comments on LotRO similarly. I don't frankly care if LotRO is similar to WoW or not if I find it boring or uninteresting or find that my character is really just a dev made character that I can unlock as I level. I am not saying all people will dislike those things - in fact many may not - I just unlike that so if I was trying to convey that quickly to a broad audience and I was not so good at communicating or just lazy I might be inclined to just shout 'WoW clone'. Mind you I don't really know if it is a WoW clone or how much they are similar but it certainly seems fair based on what alot of people say and descriptions and info out there to say they are at least of a similar type of MMO.
Originally posted by Quingu
i could just open a thread with that 2 screnns named WOW is an AC2 CLONE. since they copied most things from ac2. pitty 99% of wow players never knew about that game so they think wow was the first lol
I have to agree here as well - I mean in terms of interfaces and such I should hope good things are copied forward but that being said how many different ways can a point and click interface be done. This comes up all the time in computers/software and I find it the most ridiculous argument/insult. Alot of times it comes up with Apple folk bitching about Windows looking like Apple in some way. Without opening that argument I allways find it curious as Apple stole/copied from work Xerox was doing in their test labs. Sometimes things are just obvious even if they haven't yet been done so once done it has a way of spreading through all things.
Seriously, imagine if TV manufacturers had the same stupid arguments. You stole our idea for a on scren bar that grows and shrinks as the volume goes up or down! how about all those companies that make microwaves copying the keypad for entering the time - how dare they! Something about intellectual property materials just has gone very wrong, both legally and in the non legal sense mentioned with the calls about interface clones and such. i don't recall which US supreme Court justice said it but in a case about patents and IP he commented that while products, inventions, even methods must be protect by law However, he said that it is a very dangerous thing, and difficult, to extend such protection to ideas as the whole basis of society is that we all learn from good ideas and from adopting them and improving them.
Wow ripoff with no endgame and crap pvp, you might aswell stay with wow since its a deeper and better game in most way. This game is 100% for casual players and generaly boring even if casual, just comunity is somewhat good in this game, better than in wow atleast. The low playerbase shows how poor this game is tbh.
Bit harsh.It surely needs some content work post level 35 but it has potential
LOTRO has more group content, and very little raid content.
Think about the raid content of WoW at release, just MC. Raiders spent most of the time before BWL running the 10 (Scholo/Strat/LBRS) and 15 (UBRS) man dungeons (prior to the nerfs).
If you want to raid 4+ days a week, then LOTRO is not for you.
Anyway, I quit WOW shortly before the 1st x-pac. I was pissed that Blizzard showed such contempt for the time serious players had invested in character development when they basically rendering all existing gear (and rep) junk in the x-pac.
At the risk of drawing flames from all the LotRO fans if what you said here describes your play preference you would HATE LotRO. Unless things have changed dramatically since I played in the open BETA the game is not at all about creating distinguished characters, with gear or otherwise. I mean all characters have differences but it is more like they are all slight variations on the pre-produced characters made by the game. None of the skills or gear really make a character unique, not in the sense that would satisfy someone who would say something such as you did above.
I agree with this statement, but for a different reason than you use. If you only played the open beta, you wouldn't have seen the customization options really open up in LoTRO. There is almost none pre 15, and it's hard to see how much of a difference talent loadouts make until you have enough under your belt to face any real decisions. Talents that look attrocious on paper actually turn out to be pretty good once you play your toon more. The customization is on par with WoW or EQ II (which is also to say that it sucks comapared to games such as EVE, FFXI, UO, or CoH...of course that may be what you meant). I could defend this in more detail, but I think it's a side light because what i think he really meant was "can I distinguish myself with gear much better than what most players can get by dumping a lot of time into the game."
Given that he said BC (i.e., the first x-pac) rendered "time invested" spent developing characters moot, I think he meant the old 60 raiding and rep grind gear. Even the old high end crafted gear couldn't be made without raiding becuase the ingredients you needed weren't world drops. Customizing your character through talents takes 5 gold at and 5 minutes a trainer, I don't think he meant that kind of "character development."
In LoTRO there really is no way to dump a shit ton of time into the game and get gear that will forever be out of reach of the "moutbreathing masses" that only play 5-10 hours a week. Raid sets look cooler, but they have stats no better than a critted one shot crafting recipe made with rare components (which is itself something of a time investment, but less painfull than raiding becasue it can be incremented and soloed). So there really is no way for a raider to trully "distinguish" themselves with gear.
Originally posted by hercules
I be honest with you.If you are anything but the most casual raider forget lotro. It certainly is not for hardcore raiders
Agree - for better or worse LotRO is casual in most every regard.
True, not a raider's game at all.
Originally posted by WSIMike
Man, I didn't know people got so worked up over someone calling a game the play a WoW clone. Did WoW pee in your cheerios?
Not at all. I own WoW. Have played it quite a bit and think it's a well-designed game.
Ignorant people repeating a mantra they can't even back-up, however, irk me - in any capacity.
Now, question... Did you have a real point to make here?
I will agree with you on this even if I understand why people tend to frame their commentary that way. WoW has come to be the pop music of MMOs - as with pop music it is obviously successful and popular but allot of contrarians will rebel against it for just that reason. I never played WoW, what I heard about it just never appealed to me - I did try LotRO through open BETA before cancelling my pre-order though and from what I can gather it seems they are of similar types even if the 'clone' calls are a bit much. Both WoW and LotRO seem to be pop music MMOs so people who don't like WoW, given its succes in the genre, will degrade other MMOs by invoking its name. I repfer to comment on an game by its own merits or flaws and allways try to frame comments on LotRO similarly. I don't frankly care if LotRO is similar to WoW or not if I find it boring or uninteresting or find that my character is really just a dev made character that I can unlock as I level. I am not saying all people will dislike those things - in fact many may not - I just unlike that so if I was trying to convey that quickly to a broad audience and I was not so good at communicating or just lazy I might be inclined to just shout 'WoW clone'. Mind you I don't really know if it is a WoW clone or how much they are similar but it certainly seems fair based on what alot of people say and descriptions and info out there to say they are at least of a similar type of MMO.
Agreed, they are indeed a similar style of game. Casual freindly PvE MMOs where abilities are unlocked by leveling. Thus they do, inevitably, share many design elements in common. Many players that are only familiar with WoW seem to think these design elements originated with WoW, which any MMO vet can tell you is male cow waste. Some have also tried to argue that Turbine must have gotten them from WoW becuase WoW is popular...!?! TGI Friday's did not steal the bun/ hamburger patty/ cheese / lettuce/ tomatoe design for hamburgers from McDonalds.
Originally posted by Quingu
i could just open a thread with that 2 screnns named WOW is an AC2 CLONE. since they copied most things from ac2. pitty 99% of wow players never knew about that game so they think wow was the first lol
I have to agree here as well - I mean in terms of interfaces and such I should hope good things are copied forward but that being said how many different ways can a point and click interface be done. This comes up all the time in computers/software and I find it the most ridiculous argument/insult. Alot of times it comes up with Apple folk bitching about Windows looking like Apple in some way. Without opening that argument I allways find it curious as Apple stole/copied from work Xerox was doing in their test labs. Sometimes things are just obvious even if they haven't yet been done so once done it has a way of spreading through all things.
Seriously, imagine if TV manufacturers had the same stupid arguments. You stole our idea for a on scren bar that grows and shrinks as the volume goes up or down! how about all those companies that make microwaves copying the keypad for entering the time - how dare they! Something about intellectual property materials just has gone very wrong, both legally and in the non legal sense mentioned with the calls about interface clones and such. i don't recall which US supreme Court justice said it but in a case about patents and IP he commented that while products, inventions, even methods must be protect by law However, he said that it is a very dangerous thing, and difficult, to extend such protection to ideas as the whole basis of society is that we all learn from good ideas and from adopting them and improving them.
Very, good point. Well put.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Perhaps - but at least it is somewhat original and it is certainly better than seeing Hobbits duel each other around town. Even if monster play never pans out I give turbine credit for trying to respect lore and still work in some kind of PvP system.
Comments
Unfortunately, I think it would fly right over some people's heads; they'd completely miss the point.
Then again, maybe you aren't as smart as you appear to think you are. WoW is the biggest MMO in the world right now, its logical to use WoW as a basis for comparison, since so many of us have played it. Your attempt to dismiss the "LOTRO is a clone" claim by trying to imply that the people who say that haven't played other MMOs, applies to very few people in my experience.
Did I say anywhere that it's illogical to *compare* the games? Nope. I didn't. I pointed out that it's unreasonable to claim that Turbine has *cloned* anything from WoW, as is widely claimed. Two different words. Two different meanings.
You can stick your fingers in your ears and jump up and down screaming that LOTRO isn't like WoW all you like, the truth is, its almost identical in all but the skin.
Beginning to think you completely missed the point...
Ok, lets say Turbine did rip them selves off instead with AC2, so its better that LOTRO is a clone of AC2? Ah, so its ok to be a clone, long as WoW isn't mentioned
Besides, the UI is a tiny part of a game in the big picture, everything else besides the graphics of LOTRO is a direct clone of WoW, ok, maybe WoW took its UI from Turbine in the first place, but they also made a game around it. Then Turbine took WoW, put a LOTRO skin on it and called it a day.
Yep... you completely missed the point.
I was saying that if one were to claim one company has *cloned* its design ideas from another game, that it would make more sense to say Turbine stole from AC2 (themselves) than it would to say they stole from WoW. The interface, as well as some things I didn't list have more in common with AC2 - a game that came out 2 years before WoW - than with WoW itself.
As for the interface comment. You're right. It is only one specific thing. It's also the only thing I cited for the sake of brevity, and because it's one example I often see brought up of how "LoTRO copied WoW". Just to appease you, however, I'll continue to list more things that AC2, as well as other MMOs, had - 2+ years before WoW. Contrary to popular belief, all design decisions do not lead back to WoW.
Ready? Here goes...
- Tier-based Crafting System - AC2 had this.
- A unique world and lore based on a proprietary IP - AC2 had this
- The ability to co-exist with thousands of others in the same world - AC2 had this.
- Harvesting of materials for crafting - AC2 had this.
- Zone and/or Faction-based PvP - AC2 had this.
- Quests - AC2 had this.
- Skill trees - AC2 had this as the core of character development; it didn't have distinct classes.
- Weather - Yep, AC2 had that too
- Raid type content - AC2 had this
- Character levels - AC2 had this
- WASD/Mouse based control - AC2 had this
- Pet classes - AC2 had this
- Summonable mounts - AC2 had this
- Travel system allowing players to get around faster - AC2 had this, via its "Ringway" networks.
- Player Parties - AC2 had this
- Ability to form guilds - AC2 had this
- A world map - AC2 had this
- Ranged/Magic/Melee based skills - AC2 had this.
- Dungeons, Forests, Open Fields, Swamps, Mountains, etc. - AC2 had all this.
- A World Map that shows player position - AC2 had this.
- A Compass indicating direction and the location of NPCs, etc - AC2 had this.
- Music system - A casual activity that is an expanded version of something that was in AC2 as well.
Is the picture a little clearer now? I'll spell it out further, just in case it isn't.
As I said before, were I ignorant enough to believe that WoW's setup is largely stolen from AC2, I certainly could, using the same narrow-minded logic many (not all) WoW fans use when making such arguments. However, I'm not that ignorant. As I stated, AC2 itself wasn't the first nor only MMO to implement those elements, either. Those are all common conventions to most all MMORPGs and have existed since long before WoW hit the scene. In other words, a MMO having any combination of those features does not make them a "WoW Clone" because WoW has them.
In fact, Blizzard has themselves said that they didn't seek to bring anything new to the genre, but to take what they felt were the best elements of it from other games and combine them into a more streamlined and accessible game. And that's exactly what they did, quite successfully. They have, thus, popularized the "casual friendly MMORPG" and brought the genre into the mainstream in a big way (whether that's good or not is subjective). You will never hear me discredit them with that.
My comment that WoW must have been the only MMO they've played is because it would seem logical to me that someone who had played other MMOs, specifically those pre-dating WoW, and experienced all those common elements, wouldn't so quickly assume a new MMO is specifically a "WoW Clone". This is particularly so in the case of people who use the phrase "WoW clone" in a dismissive way... as though WoW introduced any core element to the genre that had never existed before in some form.
So is it fair to say other MMOs are "similar" to WoW? Sure. Just as WoW bears similarities to many MMOs before it. But to say anything similar to WoW is merely "a clone", as though it's not a legitimate game unto itself is an extremely short-sighted and disingenuous statement to make. I'm not saying *you* have said that, Die_Scream.. But plenty of others certainly have, and the examples they've used as "proof" are, as I said, sorely misinformed or overstated. It's those specific comments by those specific people that I am addressing.
To be fair, and to dissuade any would-be "OMG Fanboy!" comments (though I still expect them).. there are a couple things I credit Blizzard with (though they may have been introduced in another game that I'm not aware of):
- Rested XP - I'm not a fan of this personally, but in the interest in making a game more casual-friendly, I can see the point in it. Helps make leveling and keeping up with others easier.
- Discovery XP - Prior to WoW and/or EQII.. .I don't recall any other MMOs having this - again, none that I played anyway. Not really a fan of this either. Also helps make leveling faster.
- "Accomplish something in 30 minutes or less" - A cornerstone, I think, of the casual-friendly approach. You can literally log into WoW (or LoTRO, or CoX, etc), do a quest or two and log out; at least up to a point. Other MMOs have had some "quick" content, but not to such a great degree. Again, of course this seems to be the case up 'til end-game in WoW.
- Highly Soloable - At least up to a point (ie. end-game), WoW's the first MMO I've ever played where you can solo practically the way up. Again, other MMOs have content that can be solo'd but none had ever made it so prominent.
Those are some things, off the top of my head, that prior to WoW and the "casual friendly" approach, I hadn't seen before.
They did take the time to change some things, like crafting and PVMP.
They implemented crafting and a form of PvP - just like dozens of other MMOs before them. WoW's implementation isn't unique. Nor is LotRO's. Again, this isn't "evolved" or "dervied" from WoW, it's a common element in MMORPGs in general.
Look, I can agree that for what it is, LOTRO is a good game, but it is what it is. Another on-rails, easy to play, (but not to often, you powergamer scum!!1) MMO brought to us for the bubble-gum "me-too" ultra casual crowd who loves WoW.
Right... it's a casual-friendly game for people who aren't seeking a "hardcore" gaming experience. I've never claimed otherwise.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Posted in the spirit of irony and sarcasm, that would be beautiful.
Ready? Here goes...
- Tier-based Crafting System - AC2 had this.
- A unique world and lore based on a proprietary IP - AC2 had this
- The ability to co-exist with thousands of others in the same world - AC2 had this.
- Harvesting of materials for crafting - AC2 had this.
- Zone and/or Faction-based PvP - AC2 had this.
- Quests - AC2 had this.
- Skill trees - AC2 had this as the core of character development; it didn't have distinct classes.
- Weather - Yep, AC2 had that too
- Raid type content - AC2 had this
- Character levels - AC2 had this
- WASD/Mouse based control - AC2 had this
- Pet classes - AC2 had this
- Summonable mounts - AC2 had this
- Travel system allowing players to get around faster - AC2 had this, via its "Ringway" networks.
- Player Parties - AC2 had this
- Ability to form guilds - AC2 had this
- A world map - AC2 had this
- Ranged/Magic/Melee based skills - AC2 had this.
- Dungeons, Forests, Open Fields, Swamps, Mountains, etc. - AC2 had all this.
- A World Map that shows player position - AC2 had this.
- A Compass indicating direction and the location of NPCs, etc - AC2 had this.
- Music system - A casual activity that is an expanded version of something that was in AC2 as well.
As I said before, were I ignorant enough to believe that WoW's setup is largely stolen from AC2, I certainly could, using the same narrow-minded logic many (not all) WoW fans use when making such arguments. However, I'm not that ignorant. As I stated, AC2 itself wasn't the first nor only MMO to implement those elements, either. Those are all common conventions to most all MMORPGs and have existed since long before WoW hit the scene. In other words, a MMO having any combination of those features does not make them a "WoW Clone" because WoW has them.
So is it fair to say other MMOs are "similar" to WoW? Sure. Just as WoW bears similarities to many MMOs before it. But to say anything similar to WoW is merely "a clone", as though it's not a legitimate game unto itself is an extremely short-sighted and disingenuous statement to make. I'm not saying *you* have said that, Die_Scream.. But plenty of others certainly have, and the examples they've used as "proof" are, as I said, sorely misinformed or overstated. It's those specific comments by those specific people that I am addressing.
- Rested XP - I'm not a fan of this personally, but in the interest in making a game more casual-friendly, I can see the point in it. Helps make leveling and keeping up with others easier.
- Discovery XP - Prior to WoW and/or EQII.. .I don't recall any other MMOs having this - again, none that I played anyway. Not really a fan of this either. Also helps make leveling faster.
- "Accomplish something in 30 minutes or less" - A cornerstone, I think, of the casual-friendly approach. You can literally log into WoW (or LoTRO, or CoX, etc), do a quest or two and log out; at least up to a point. Other MMOs have had some "quick" content, but not to such a great degree. Again, of course this seems to be the case up 'til end-game in WoW.
- Highly Soloable - At least up to a point (ie. end-game), WoW's the first MMO I've ever played where you can solo practically the way up. Again, other MMOs have content that can be solo'd but none had ever made it so prominent.
Those are some things, off the top of my head, that prior to WoW and the "casual friendly" approach, I hadn't seen before.
They implemented crafting and a form of PvP - just like dozens of other MMOs before them. WoW's implementation isn't unique. Nor is LotRO's. Again, this isn't "copied from WoW", it's a common element in MMORPGs in general.
Right... it's a casual-friendly game for people who aren't seeking a "hardcore" gaming experience. I've never claimed otherwise.
Regardless of who took what ideas from whom, LOTRO is no more innovative than Its inspiration, WoW, which is a bad thing, considering Turbine released LOTRO 2 years after WoW.
EDIT: The fonts are all screwed up
lol... and here I thought you did that to me on purpose
Oddly, I don't think you and I are disagreeing at all... just discussing from different angles.
My whole point could well be game agnostic.
Did Turbine opt for a more "casual friendly" game - the market that WoW arguably introduced and popularized (look at me go with the big words...
)? Absolutely. And that, to me, that is where all credit to WoW begins and ends where LotRO is concerned, and is the basis of my whole rant. If you'd played AC2 when it was around, I bet you'd have found the "feel" of the game to be similar to WoW as well - because for the most part it had alot of the same basic mechanics intact.
Every other feature found in LoTRO, those I listed and more, existed in some form in other MMOs that came out before WoW. I used AC2 as a specific example because it happens to also be a Turbine game that pre-dates WoW, so it seemed more appropriate to the example. Oh, and that list was off the top of my head... really didn't take long (I also type fast - blame it on the day job
.
In particular, the interface example was one given to illustrate that point because I've specifically seen people point out LoTRO's interface as being "stolen" from WoW, which - by those screenshots - is visibly not the case.
I'm trying to put that in context for people whom, by their comments, don't seem to realize - or at least acknowledge - that WoW did not introduce all those things into MMOs. They've been staples of the genre for a while now.
In some round-about way, I'm basically saying "LoTRO does not implement anything from WoW that WoW didn't in turn implement from somewhere else... so it's a pointless case to make."
They're both casual games that share many elements common to MMORPGs. Beyond that, they're different beasts.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Among fruits, i tend to prefer the citrus varieties. Among citrus fruit, oranges and tangerines are my usual favorites (although I'm also a big fan of grapefruit). I recently discovered a variety of orange called a blood orange. It is both sweeter and tangier than a valencia orange, and has slight undrcurrents of strawberries. The flesh is a deep crimson (or streaked with it). When they are in season, i go out of my way to buy them now. I'm even willing to pay two or three times as much as I would pay for Valencias when i find them at a farmer's market.
I could list many similarities between a blood orange and a Valencia (the common grocery store variety you are likely familiar with). But what would be the point? The reasons i like blood oranges have to do with the subtle differences between a blood orange and the ones you can typically buy in an American grocery store. The similarities are irrelevant to me.
Is blood orange so different from a cheap corporate farmed Valencia that someone that hates oranges would like it? No, of course not. Of course, I would also find it odd for some one that dislikes oranges to criticize the blood orange in particular for having characteristics typical of an orange. And such a person should not be surprised when I don't take their opinion of blood oranges (or any orange variety for that matter) very seriously.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
I agree with the first statement absolutely. I respectfully disagree on the second.
I agree with the first statement absolutely. I respectfully disagree on the second.
Okay, fair enough
Hey we're half-way there.
What do you see as similarities - besides those things that are staples of the MMORPG genre overall - between LoTRO and WoW?
Not being glib here... I'm genuinely curious.
When I say they're two different beasts, I speak from my time having played both, which of course makes it purely my personal view.
Personally, LoTRO feels nothing like WoW to me, and vice versa. The pacing, the world design, the setting, etc. all provide a very different experience.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Heheh... I love posts like that.
Very well put
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Thank you WSI Mike it's about time someone else starts telling it like it actually is. Of course when someone actually points out IN DETAIL how LOTRO isn't a clone there tends to be a few WoW fanboys that can't read passed a sentence without complaining about the length. Being thorough and covering all your points are the two things people who don't have a base for an argument hate most.
Oh that and the ADD kicks in, a common trait in a hardcore WoW player
If you aren't referring to me then disregard.
If you are referring to me, I suggest you get over your WoW hate and read my posts, as I am no fanboy of WoW or any other game.If you aren't referring to me then disregard.
Nahh.. We like ya 'round here, Die. You can voice a stern opinion without resorting to shouting "OMG Fanboy!" at everyone who disagrees with you or, more specifically, doesn't just automatically take everything you say as fact at face value, because you say it is. A certain other person 'round these forums (whom shall remain nameless so as not to taint the discourse) can't seem to grasp that concept very well.
I think forums need people who don't agree... It'd be kinda boring if everyone just agreed all the time.
A: "This game rocks!"
B: "Yeah!"
.
.
.
.
Z: "This is the best game evar!"
...
A: "Sooo... what do we talk about now?"
B: "This game rocks!"
C: "We've already been over that, B"
B: "Oh, yeah. This game has the best graphics!!"
E: "Nope... we covered that in the other thread already"
... and so forth.
As for Druz's comments... Well, I like to think I call it as I see it for the most part. However, there are certain things that are said by some that are just factually wrong, and I've demonstrated the fallacy of at least one of those examples (not that it will stop people from saying it anyway). People can dislike a game and voice that dislike all they want. Just keep a well-defined line between what is opinion and what is fact and don't try to blur the line or mix the two -shrug- That's the way I see it anyway.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Yer alright Mike
Now off to beta GaH!
you lucky b*stard
you lucky b*stard
/em feels clueless...
GaH?
(runs off to check the unreleased games list...)
... I hope "GaH" isn't a really unfortunate acronym for what the experience is like playing it...
Oh.. Gods and Heroes... Got it.
Duh.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
you lucky b*stard
Just so you know, all I did was sign up on the open forums, and they happened to be giving keys the next day when I logged in. So I checked the announcement post and applied, boom, I was in. Easiest beta entry ever. Probably just super lucky timing.
you lucky b*stard
Just so you know, all I did was sign up on the open forums, and they happened to be giving keys the next day when I logged in. So I checked the announcement post and applied, boom, I was in. Easiest beta entry ever. Probably just super lucky timing.
Oh nice.. THat is good timing. I remember a few people in my old EQ2 guild were looking into that game. Not sure if they still are or not.
I'm checking out the Spellborn beta myself... though it's been down for a couple weeks. I think they're working out server issues. That game has a few interesting concepts in it. Not 100% sold on it yet... but it looks promising.
But anyway... hmm.. I think we've strayed off topic here a bit O.o
As for the OP... as others have said... If you're looking for a game purely as a hardcore raider, then I would say LoTOR is a bit premature.
If you're a LoTRO fan, don't mind that all of Middle Earth isn't currently in game yet, but what is there provides alot to do, and can enjoy the game in that capacity, you might give it a try anyway.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
ill give that a try,thanks.hopefully ill get lucky
. Ive been interested in that game for a long time,would love to give it a go.
Last off topic post, heh
:
I am currently beta testing Chronicals of Spellborn, Tabula Rasa, and Gods and Heroes, along with playing CoX and EQ2. Plus posting in each games forums, and here as well, I think my computer chair is permanently stuck to my ass!
EDIT: Though I haven't been in Chronicals for a few weeks, sounds like I haven't missed much if its been down.
At the risk of drawing flames from all the LotRO fans if what you said here describes your play preference you would HATE LotRO. Unless things have changed dramatically since I played in the open BETA the game is not at all about creating distinguished characters, with gear or otherwise. I mean all characters have differences but it is more like they are all slight variations on the pre-produced characters made by the game. None of the skills or gear really make a character unique, not in the sense that would satisfy someone who would say something such as you did above.
Agree - for better or worse LotRO is casual in most every regard.
Not at all. I own WoW. Have played it quite a bit and think it's a well-designed game.
Ignorant people repeating a mantra they can't even back-up, however, irk me - in any capacity.
Now, question... Did you have a real point to make here?
I will agree with you on this even if I understand why people tend to frame their commentary that way. WoW has come to be the pop music of MMOs - as with pop music it is obviously successful and popular but allot of contrarians will rebel against it for just that reason. I never played WoW, what I heard about it just never appealed to me - I did try LotRO through open BETA before cancelling my pre-order though and from what I can gather it seems they are of similar types even if the 'clone' calls are a bit much. Both WoW and LotRO seem to be pop music MMOs so people who don't like WoW, given its succes in the genre, will degrade other MMOs by invoking its name. I repfer to comment on an game by its own merits or flaws and allways try to frame comments on LotRO similarly. I don't frankly care if LotRO is similar to WoW or not if I find it boring or uninteresting or find that my character is really just a dev made character that I can unlock as I level. I am not saying all people will dislike those things - in fact many may not - I just unlike that so if I was trying to convey that quickly to a broad audience and I was not so good at communicating or just lazy I might be inclined to just shout 'WoW clone'. Mind you I don't really know if it is a WoW clone or how much they are similar but it certainly seems fair based on what alot of people say and descriptions and info out there to say they are at least of a similar type of MMO.
I have to agree here as well - I mean in terms of interfaces and such I should hope good things are copied forward but that being said how many different ways can a point and click interface be done. This comes up all the time in computers/software and I find it the most ridiculous argument/insult. Alot of times it comes up with Apple folk bitching about Windows looking like Apple in some way. Without opening that argument I allways find it curious as Apple stole/copied from work Xerox was doing in their test labs. Sometimes things are just obvious even if they haven't yet been done so once done it has a way of spreading through all things.
Seriously, imagine if TV manufacturers had the same stupid arguments. You stole our idea for a on scren bar that grows and shrinks as the volume goes up or down! how about all those companies that make microwaves copying the keypad for entering the time - how dare they! Something about intellectual property materials just has gone very wrong, both legally and in the non legal sense mentioned with the calls about interface clones and such. i don't recall which US supreme Court justice said it but in a case about patents and IP he commented that while products, inventions, even methods must be protect by law However, he said that it is a very dangerous thing, and difficult, to extend such protection to ideas as the whole basis of society is that we all learn from good ideas and from adopting them and improving them.
--------------------------------
Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
If you are only interested in raiding all day, then you should probably stick with WOW.
Bit harsh.It surely needs some content work post level 35 but it has potential
stick with WOW or go to EQ2 for end game stuff, forget LOTRO.....just being honest.....
LOTRO has more group content, and very little raid content.
Think about the raid content of WoW at release, just MC. Raiders spent most of the time before BWL running the 10 (Scholo/Strat/LBRS) and 15 (UBRS) man dungeons (prior to the nerfs).
If you want to raid 4+ days a week, then LOTRO is not for you.
At the risk of drawing flames from all the LotRO fans if what you said here describes your play preference you would HATE LotRO. Unless things have changed dramatically since I played in the open BETA the game is not at all about creating distinguished characters, with gear or otherwise. I mean all characters have differences but it is more like they are all slight variations on the pre-produced characters made by the game. None of the skills or gear really make a character unique, not in the sense that would satisfy someone who would say something such as you did above.
I agree with this statement, but for a different reason than you use. If you only played the open beta, you wouldn't have seen the customization options really open up in LoTRO. There is almost none pre 15, and it's hard to see how much of a difference talent loadouts make until you have enough under your belt to face any real decisions. Talents that look attrocious on paper actually turn out to be pretty good once you play your toon more. The customization is on par with WoW or EQ II (which is also to say that it sucks comapared to games such as EVE, FFXI, UO, or CoH...of course that may be what you meant). I could defend this in more detail, but I think it's a side light because what i think he really meant was "can I distinguish myself with gear much better than what most players can get by dumping a lot of time into the game."
Given that he said BC (i.e., the first x-pac) rendered "time invested" spent developing characters moot, I think he meant the old 60 raiding and rep grind gear. Even the old high end crafted gear couldn't be made without raiding becuase the ingredients you needed weren't world drops. Customizing your character through talents takes 5 gold at and 5 minutes a trainer, I don't think he meant that kind of "character development."
In LoTRO there really is no way to dump a shit ton of time into the game and get gear that will forever be out of reach of the "moutbreathing masses" that only play 5-10 hours a week. Raid sets look cooler, but they have stats no better than a critted one shot crafting recipe made with rare components (which is itself something of a time investment, but less painfull than raiding becasue it can be incremented and soloed). So there really is no way for a raider to trully "distinguish" themselves with gear.
Agree - for better or worse LotRO is casual in most every regard.
True, not a raider's game at all.
Not at all. I own WoW. Have played it quite a bit and think it's a well-designed game.
Ignorant people repeating a mantra they can't even back-up, however, irk me - in any capacity.
Now, question... Did you have a real point to make here?
I will agree with you on this even if I understand why people tend to frame their commentary that way. WoW has come to be the pop music of MMOs - as with pop music it is obviously successful and popular but allot of contrarians will rebel against it for just that reason. I never played WoW, what I heard about it just never appealed to me - I did try LotRO through open BETA before cancelling my pre-order though and from what I can gather it seems they are of similar types even if the 'clone' calls are a bit much. Both WoW and LotRO seem to be pop music MMOs so people who don't like WoW, given its succes in the genre, will degrade other MMOs by invoking its name. I repfer to comment on an game by its own merits or flaws and allways try to frame comments on LotRO similarly. I don't frankly care if LotRO is similar to WoW or not if I find it boring or uninteresting or find that my character is really just a dev made character that I can unlock as I level. I am not saying all people will dislike those things - in fact many may not - I just unlike that so if I was trying to convey that quickly to a broad audience and I was not so good at communicating or just lazy I might be inclined to just shout 'WoW clone'. Mind you I don't really know if it is a WoW clone or how much they are similar but it certainly seems fair based on what alot of people say and descriptions and info out there to say they are at least of a similar type of MMO.
Agreed, they are indeed a similar style of game. Casual freindly PvE MMOs where abilities are unlocked by leveling. Thus they do, inevitably, share many design elements in common. Many players that are only familiar with WoW seem to think these design elements originated with WoW, which any MMO vet can tell you is male cow waste. Some have also tried to argue that Turbine must have gotten them from WoW becuase WoW is popular...!?! TGI Friday's did not steal the bun/ hamburger patty/ cheese / lettuce/ tomatoe design for hamburgers from McDonalds.
I have to agree here as well - I mean in terms of interfaces and such I should hope good things are copied forward but that being said how many different ways can a point and click interface be done. This comes up all the time in computers/software and I find it the most ridiculous argument/insult. Alot of times it comes up with Apple folk bitching about Windows looking like Apple in some way. Without opening that argument I allways find it curious as Apple stole/copied from work Xerox was doing in their test labs. Sometimes things are just obvious even if they haven't yet been done so once done it has a way of spreading through all things.
Seriously, imagine if TV manufacturers had the same stupid arguments. You stole our idea for a on scren bar that grows and shrinks as the volume goes up or down! how about all those companies that make microwaves copying the keypad for entering the time - how dare they! Something about intellectual property materials just has gone very wrong, both legally and in the non legal sense mentioned with the calls about interface clones and such. i don't recall which US supreme Court justice said it but in a case about patents and IP he commented that while products, inventions, even methods must be protect by law However, he said that it is a very dangerous thing, and difficult, to extend such protection to ideas as the whole basis of society is that we all learn from good ideas and from adopting them and improving them.
Very, good point. Well put.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Monster play is the dumbest idea ever for an mmo.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Perhaps - but at least it is somewhat original and it is certainly better than seeing Hobbits duel each other around town. Even if monster play never pans out I give turbine credit for trying to respect lore and still work in some kind of PvP system.
--------------------------------
Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD