I think their is grounds for rage in regards to the context with which this donation was given. I do not think anyone is blasting Sony for giving money to charity. I think some are upset with the context. They attached the charity donation to a black spot on their games lineup. Partly in a effort to cover it up, or soften the negative impression. They did not have to do this. They could have just handed money over instead they used it as a publicity stunt, and a poorly considered one at that. You can blast them for the stunt, and not be against charity. The same way you could be against the war in Iraq, and not be against the soldiers that were forced to fight in it. They are not the same thing.
Lets for examples sake say I decided to donate money to charity, and do it as a publicity stunt. Lets say I will donate twenty dollars to a charity for every kitten I drown up to a hundred kittens. I go out in the middle of town publicize it, and proceed to dunk kitties. I even involve the towns children telling them to bring me kitties. Obviously in life this will upset a lot of people. Technically in many states however it is perfectly legal. Some states have no laws against animal cruelty. Technically by a twisted logic I am doing a good thing. One hundred dead kittens might help a kid get medical treatment, or help cure a disease.
Applying the logic some on this forum encourage nobody should dare attack me for my actions, because it is done in the name of charity. This is the difference between methodology and results. Were I to cure a disease it would be good, but if I cured it by murdering a thousand people. Would it still be good? Possibly for the people I save, but those thousands that suffered a horrible death might disagree.
People have a right to complain about the methodology behind the donation which might be offensive, and not actually be against a charity or making donations to a charity. Sony used it as a publicity stunt, and thus they are not entirely noble in their actions. They are getting something out of them. Anyone saying you can't take issue with Sony for a poorly conceived stunt simply because a charity is involved is perhaps the greatest of fools. That is a logic of infinite justification. All one needs to do is donate to a charity to erase bad behavior. Hell you can engage in bad behavior while doing it, and anyone outraged can be marked as a monster.
It'd be nice if SOE were as charitable to their own customers. If they can contribute money to a charity, why can't they spend money on classic servers (which would only make them more money)?
Instead, they have been rude, crude, disrespectful, and unprofessional. They continue to maintain the fiction that the NGE is the best version of the game ever. They continue to start EVERY (rare) conversation with the player base with "what can we do to make you like the game except what you want us to do that would make you like the game"?
SOE deserves their well earned reputation. They not only rolled the bus over the SWG customers, they keep rolling it backwards and forwards over us.
It's no accident that SWG was the runaway "winner" of so many MMOWTF awards (that thread that GreyNoob necroed).
When you go to work for a company that is covered in excrement, you should expect to end up smelling.
You all with the "get over it" crusade, I might have agreed with you except SOE continues in the quest to massively change their games. The C6 Combat Downgrade places a WoW type combat system in the game, creating lag to the max, many many bugs, and brought back the player base to about cl 50 in comparison to what was before. Again all done in an overnight patch with very little advance notice to most of the player base. When they have a thread, in their forums, of 67 pages of thier customers who do not like their "significant" change, as they call it, they again, like CUNGE, say nothing. They continue to make these mistakes over and over and over. I doubt I'll "get over it" anytime soon and I can understand why after 2 years others haven't "got over it" either.
Why must you people continue to be complete and utter ignorant idiots? SOE LICENSED Star Wars from Lucas Arts. The whole NGE was forced upon them by Lucas Arts, and changes continue to come from them. Why does SOE put up with it? Because SWG is still making them craploads of cash. Not as much as WoW, but enough for them to stick with this, even with the hell that the old school players give them for it.
If you want old school SWG, look for the Emulation project that is so widely visible. SOE can't open up "classic" servers because of the license, so quit holding out hope that by sitting around bitching, moaning and complaining enough will get you what you wish.
If you want a SIMILAR experience, with a Science Fantasy feel, try out Ryzom. Not quite the same, but it will have to do.
SOE should be applauded for their charitable contributions rather than ridiculed because they made the game you loved something you now hate.
I'm afraid you have your facts a little, (well a lot), mixed up. LA may have indeed played a part in NGE, but CU and C6CD were totally the fault or the revels (depends on how you see it) of SOE. There has been countless threads over whos at fault with NGE also and all fingers point at SOE. They actually took the blame for NGE after the fact. Even in the MMORPG.com video interview with DM and Blix, Blix says very strongly that the dev team will certainly try to not repeat past mistakes. LA has veto power and their "blame" may be that they didn't veto these massive changes.
And your analogy of "classic" servers is completely false also. I personally spoke with Lorin Jameson (Deadmeat) and classic servers were talked about at SOE. They even went so far as to bring up CU on their internal servers. He told me the decision was made that classic servers would not be done due to business implications, not licencing. They do not have the support staff to run and maintain 2 different games. He did say that pre-CU was not an option and did not ellaborate as to why. They could bring up a CU classic server but CHOOSE not to.
And if you notice, I did not get into the debate on if SOE made the contribution for PR purposes or out of their hearts, so to speak. Really, it doesn't matter why the $ was donated, just the fact that it was. The part I did get into was the FACT that SOE continues to implant MASSIVE changes to SWG, continues to lose subs over it, and take another player base that they created and totally alienate them. More "classic" mistakes even when promised not to.
Myself and a bunch of past and currant SWG players are now, (like last night) are trying Entropia Universe. Seems to have a lot of past SWG in it, skill boxes, sand box, crafting, player houseing, etc etc. It looks very promising and it's free!
How can you actually bash a company for giving money to charity? I know, I know, they are rude to you. They didn't donate to YOUR charity. The "Help the displaced SWG gamers find a new MMO". It's sad, really it is.
Whatever your personal feelings are for the NGE debacle, you can't fault a company for helping give people homes who don't. I'm sure, it's hard to see that point of view when you are sitting in your own house on your PC. But tell me how you feel after you get evicted. It changes your perspective, believe me.
I'm not going to fault anyone for not giving to Habitat, but honestly, if you could, would you have given $10,000? I know what it's like to be homeless, and I still can't see me being that generous.
As to the whole LA vs. SOE argument... At the Hollywood and games Summit, which I was privy to attend, Nicholas Beliaeff of Sony Online said that Sony has complete control over SWG and Lucas Arts had no say in the development process of the game. LA didn't kill the game.
I was displaced just as much as the rest of you. I do not like what they did, but that shouldn't be the sole factor on judging the company. This, coupled with the fact they have given Katrina victims free subs for 2 years now means I will be playing SOE games if I am personally interested. SOE isn't the massive black mark it was for me 2 years ago.
Holy crap Cabalist... How can you actually bash a company for giving money to charity? I know, I know, they are rude to you. They didn't donate to YOUR charity. The "Help the displaced SWG gamers find a new MMO". It's sad, really it is. Whatever your personal feelings are for the NGE debacle, you can't fault a company for helping give people homes who don't. I'm sure, it's hard to see that point of view when you are sitting in your own house on your PC. But tell me how you feel after you get evicted. It changes your perspective, believe me. I'm not going to fault anyone for not giving to Habitat, but honestly, if you could, would you have given $10,000? I know what it's like to be homeless, and I still can't see me being that generous. As to the whole LA vs. SOE argument... At the Hollywood and games Summit, which I was privy to attend, Nicholas Beliaeff of Sony Online said that Sony has complete control over SWG and Lucas Arts had no say in the development process of the game. LA didn't kill the game. I was displaced just as much as the rest of you. I do not like what they did, but that shouldn't be the sole factor on judging the company. This, coupled with the fact they have given Katrina victims free subs for 2 years now means I will be playing SOE games if I am personally interested. SOE isn't the massive black mark it was for me 2 years ago.
actually your wrong....cause recently posted by an soe dev on the swg forums, the reason the publishes get pushed out so slowly is because LA must approve EVERYTHING...down to artwork, game changes, even fonts have to be approved. Thats why it takes so long to develope each publish, and why somethings are never put into game.
I blame those who give the ok to do things. If an employee of a company or your subcontractor want s to do something, and management has to approve it, then the fault of something going wrong falls squarely on the shoulders of management. It is why you have management.Otherwise your letting the underlings run your company.
So even if SOE made the NGE, LA had to test it, and then give the OK to SOE to go ahead and publish it. If LA missed something, or screwed up with not seeing something, then it is LA's.
But to beleive that LA didn't approve and say go ahead or make a huge change with SOE, thats absurd. LA is the stingiest compaqny when it comes to their IP, and you will not find a company with a tighter strangle hold on their IP.
Using the "LEC must approve EVERYTHING" excuse doesn't fly. Approval didn't take this long back when they were able to push a publish out every 3-4 weeks did it?
Enough is enough. People need to quit making excuses for SOE and LEC, and those companies sure as hell need to quit using them.
Fact of the matter is, they pissed a ton of people off, they lost 200K+ customers, and they acquired the worst reputation in the industry. There is a large group of people who rule out MMOs simply on the basis that SOE is involved... Their name is SO bad that the "NGE question" has to be answered even when they strike a deal to HOST someone ELSE'S MMO (POTBS)...
When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging. That is what wasting even 5 minutes of development time on the NGE version of the game amounts to. Much less the year+ they have wasted. Look what it's got them, wow, 2 months of 90K subs when they'd fallen to 40 something K before! Guess where they are now? Back down to the collapse curve they were on...
Holy crap Cabalist... How can you actually bash a company for giving money to charity? I know, I know, they are rude to you. They didn't donate to YOUR charity. The "Help the displaced SWG gamers find a new MMO". It's sad, really it is. Whatever your personal feelings are for the NGE debacle, you can't fault a company for helping give people homes who don't. I'm sure, it's hard to see that point of view when you are sitting in your own house on your PC. But tell me how you feel after you get evicted. It changes your perspective, believe me. I'm not going to fault anyone for not giving to Habitat, but honestly, if you could, would you have given $10,000? I know what it's like to be homeless, and I still can't see me being that generous. As to the whole LA vs. SOE argument... At the Hollywood and games Summit, which I was privy to attend, Nicholas Beliaeff of Sony Online said that Sony has complete control over SWG and Lucas Arts had no say in the development process of the game. LA didn't kill the game. I was displaced just as much as the rest of you. I do not like what they did, but that shouldn't be the sole factor on judging the company. This, coupled with the fact they have given Katrina victims free subs for 2 years now means I will be playing SOE games if I am personally interested. SOE isn't the massive black mark it was for me 2 years ago.
actually your wrong....cause recently posted by an soe dev on the swg forums, the reason the publishes get pushed out so slowly is because LA must approve EVERYTHING...down to artwork, game changes, even fonts have to be approved. Thats why it takes so long to develope each publish, and why somethings are never put into game.
I blame those who give the ok to do things. If an employee of a company or your subcontractor want s to do something, and management has to approve it, then the fault of something going wrong falls squarely on the shoulders of management. It is why you have management.Otherwise your letting the underlings run your company.
So even if SOE made the NGE, LA had to test it, and then give the OK to SOE to go ahead and publish it. If LA missed something, or screwed up with not seeing something, then it is LA's.
But to beleive that LA didn't approve and say go ahead or make a huge change with SOE, thats absurd. LA is the stingiest compaqny when it comes to their IP, and you will not find a company with a tighter strangle hold on their IP.
LA is not an MMO company. They do not have an MMO development team. They do not have an MMO testing team. They do not test everything that goes into the game. The only checking they do is to make sure the SOE hasn't added anything into the game that could potentially get LA in IP trouble. They make sure everything they see is actually owned by them.
Because, yes, LA is stingy when it comes to the MONEY of the Star Wars IP. Gameplay? Canon? They could care less about and you know it. I love LA... I still buy most of their Star Wars games, but lets face it. They are milking the cow dry. They are trying to get all the money possible out of it and thats all LA has vested into the SWG project.
Gameplay changes are NOT reviewed by them, made by them or approved by them. That is all done in house at SOE.
Does any of this really matter more the fact that a family in desperate need will now have a place to call home, a place to feel safe, a place to start rebuilding their lives?
There are tons of threads discussing, arguing, etc. on why SOE sucks/rocks, argue there. Who is wrong or right and whether this was a "stunt" or not doesn't really matter more than what donations like these result in at the end of the day.
It would not be possible for you to be more wrong. EVERY change made to the game has to gain the approval of LEC, it's one of the reasons change does not happen as quickly. And as that every change has to be approved by LEC it then becomes part of the lore of Star Wars like it or not. I remember way back before launch SOE wanted to put in Naboo as a planet for the game and that decision was made by George himself. The reason spice can no longer be made was all LEC, it would be easy to enable it again for smugglers to make and I am sure the smugglers would like it but LEC will not let that happen.
Does any of this really matter more the fact that a family in desperate need will now have a place to call home, a place to feel safe, a place to start rebuilding their lives? There are tons of threads discussing, arguing, etc. on why SOE sucks/rocks, argue there. Who is wrong or right and whether this was a "stunt" or not doesn't really matter more than what donations like these result in at the end of the day.
i agree....soe haters only see the gripe with their game. Not to mention the fact as you said, that someone might now have a home and not freeze or go homeless
Why must you people continue to be complete and utter ignorant idiots? SOE LICENSED Star Wars from Lucas Arts. The whole NGE was forced upon them by Lucas Arts, and changes continue to come from them. Why does SOE put up with it? Because SWG is still making them craploads of cash. Not as much as WoW, but enough for them to stick with this, even with the hell that the old school players give them for it.
According to folks who were actually involved with the NGE's conception and development, LEC did nothing more than approve it. If SWG made SOE "craploads of cash", there would be a much larger development team devoted to it. As it is, SWG has the third smallest dev team (behind MxO and Planetside).
Doesn't wash, never did. What I've seen of those accounts basically amounted to SOE saying "Yeah, we are the ones who built it". Well, DUH! Of course they built it; that's their job.
What is not talked about is who conceived of the NGE and pushed it live. I'm not referring to that Battle Front-esque adaptation of JTL combat to the ground game; it wasn't a very good idea because the engine couldn't and can't support it properly. But if NGE was that and nothing else, the reaction would not have been remotely as harsh. The heart of NGE was the near-amputation of the game's complexity and noncombat aspects, streamlining down to a railroaded, straitjacketed class-and-level console game aimed (they made no bones about this) squarely at children.
Changes of this magnitude go far beyond the rubber stamp approval process. This is Star Wars™; much more minor things have gone unfixed since launch because LEC refused to sign off on them. I can believe that LEC, lacking understanding of the MMO market, might not understand the difference, but SOE has not such excuse. Galaxies took a significant hit with the CU just 6 months before, and was only just (arguably) recovering when the NGE bomb hit.
Brenlo, the head of 'Community Relations' of all of SOE (a job he does very, very poorly) posted on the official SWG forum that SOE both conceived and developed the NGE. That was in response to a post that straight out asked if LEC forced the NGE on the game. Jeff Freeman (former Lead Gameplay designer for SWG)posted, on this forum, that the NGE was created without any directive from LEC (do a search here for posts by "Dundee").
SOE tanked the game and LEC allowed them to do it, twice. The folks who commented on it didn't just say "Yeah, we are the ones who built it", they also say "It was our idea, LEC never made us do it". LEC deserves part of the blame for allowing SOE to implement the NGE, but it was the folks at SOE who came up with it and pushed for it to be implemented.
People slag SOE for a lot of things, and sometimes rightly so, but I personally don't think that they deserve ridicule for giving money to a charity, especially one as important as this one. The more that we encourage corporate donations like this, the better, no matter how you may personally feel about the company.
Taking ill gotten money even for charity is not considered appropriate by many charities because it says a chartity is willing to ignore the bad just for money which is not why they are a charity.
Charities should actually be more careful whom they associate with as greed is the exact opposite of charity. As the old saying goes you shouldn't rob Peter to pay Paul.
Charities should be discouraging greed, not helping to promote them. Corporate sponserships. Corporate events. Lets tie our name to xyz charity and mail it out to potential customers?
I am not saying this was even the case here. I know it happens. Just look at Chartity events today. Is it about charity and giving back anymore or is it a marketing tool to generate even more money? A cynic's view might not be so blind to the exploition of charity to improve ones own economic plight at which case is it really giving back?
A lot of cases business won't donate unless they have a tangible "reward" for there donation, IE there name on event materials and awards for there "worK" so on and so forth. Is that really charity? If you still say yes, did it help more then it hurt? So you measure that how exactly?
Brenlo, the head of 'Community Relations' of all of SOE (a job he does very, very poorly) posted on the official SWG forum that SOE both conceived and developed the NGE. That was in response to a post that straight out asked if LEC forced the NGE on the game. Jeff Freeman (former Lead Gameplay designer for SWG)posted, on this forum, that the NGE was created without any directive from LEC (do a search here for posts by "Dundee").
Freeman was accused of having said that, true. I thought I read all of his posts here in the Refuge, and I don't recall that. He was always really careful about what he said; mostly it was all about the process. Some posters have complained about excess use of the passive voice in his posts: "Mistakes were made; there were errors in judgment", carefully avoiding naming any names. Freeman was candid about the logic behind the NGE (lose a few players to gain many more), but not so candid about who came up with that proposition.
i am sure the homeless or those in desperate need of a home appreciate the money any way it comes in. I don't think THEY would shun a company for donating $10k for their home because the way the developed a game
i am sure the homeless or those in desperate need of a home appreciate the money any way it comes in. I don't think THEY would shun a company for donating $10k for their home because the way the developed a game
People slag SOE for a lot of things, and sometimes rightly so, but I personally don't think that they deserve ridicule for giving money to a charity, especially one as important as this one. The more that we encourage corporate donations like this, the better, no matter how you may personally feel about the company.
100% with you there pitty more games companys didnt do the same thing
Regardless, SOE is a very much disliked MMO publisher that has done everything to earn and deserve the reputation and vitriol that they get. Making charitable donations is nice, but it does nothing to resolve the many injustices the company and current management have commited in the industry. Why do you always come to SOE's defense? I am curious.
I'm not really coming to anyone's defense with that post.
I acknowledge that people have legit gripes with SOE. Personally, I have no real feelings toward the company as a whole one way or the other.
My only point was that charitable donations should always be encouraged. It's a good thing.
And yes, I do see the irony of giving such a donation for a demo project...
I'd be a little less visible defending them if I were you. It's not as if there is anything for your site to gain anyway, as SOE isn't even really a legit contender in the MMO marketplace anymore. Are they even top 5 in subs anymore if you combine all their games? SOE is at best a 2nd tier publisher at this point, and they are rapidly falling into the third tier.
SOE has long been eclipsed by Blizzard, NCSoft, and yes, even Turbine, which has 4 mil subs for LOTRO...
SWG isn't even the #1 sci-fi MMO anymore... EVE has long surpassed it in subs. It's a great game, it's Pre-CU in space. Whenever you mention the NGE to any CCP people they thank SOE for it... Oh, and Eve is getting a ground game...
wow, your sheer hate amazes me lol....step off thesoap box sometime dude, when you make a game and become successful, then you should open your mouth.
I agree with stradden, and you guys would seriously gripe about anything and anything. NGE screwed the pooch, yes, but you know what? ITS A FRIGGEN GAME! I got over it, and so have countless of others. In fact, i am now playing EQ2 (OMG get your pitchefork)...EQ2 is prolly one of the best mmos out there atm.
And your talk of an eve ground game is laughable. They have mentioned that they will get areas where you can get out of your ship, but thats about it. Cabalist, your the king of the I HATE SOE trolls. its quite funny and sad at the same time.
Big word to all you SWG:NGE haters - GET OVER IT. I did, and have been alot happier and less moodier since i did. And before you say i don't play swg, i played from closed beta 2003 till last month, where i discovered EQ2
As a vet of SWG from the off or so aand a 3 year players of EQ2 i have to agree with this post the irrational hate towards a games company is getting a little old and frankly silly now..its time to move on and grow up
mmorpg.com knows all about corporate donations with SOE dont we stradden lol. We have 2 forums people can debate and chat with each other PRE-CU NGE hits suddenly we have 2 forums that get banned if they talk to each other SINCE NGE and poof we have a new make believe crisis to justify our SOE payoff lmao.Talk about the pot calling the kettle black man. Heres a discusting arrogant know it all company who makes lousy everything to be quite honest pays off whoever they can do whatever they can to lie and make things rosey and they pull this beyond low donation.Youve got to be bleeping kidding me. You know i would of agreed with you if it was money out of Smedleys own pocket b/c hes overpayed for 1 he doesnt do anything but travel and lie his fat @ss off on interviews.Why didnt he donate out of his own pocket if this is such a "great thing" What a discusting new low. Answer me this why is this is so public? Huh whats the need to get this out so badly. Why not just donate it move on would gave them some respect but this is just really sick to advertise like that. I dont know how much theyre paying you guys but at some point you need to ask yourself how much is enough to be tied in with people who use events like that to get attention off theyre horribly made products and there ever Growing more and more bad there reputation. Guess well find huh? Go ahead block me if ya want u done it before lol i got 482 mails i can make and ip around, Nice thing about the internet is SOE cant buy it off
Originally posted by Stradden
People slag SOE for a lot of things, and sometimes rightly so, but I personally don't think that they deserve ridicule for giving money to a charity, especially one as important as this one. The more that we encourage corporate donations like this, the better, no matter how you may personally feel about the company.
*Games on our site will be treated just as we treat people. Unsubstantiated comments about specific or general games will be penalized in nearly the same way attacks against people will. The exception is that you can say mean things about games provided you back it up with reasons. Example: "Game X sucks." is not a legitimate comment. "Game X sucks, because..." is acceptable.
SOE house purge event had a taste of low ethics becuase SOE encouraged something like an "MMO - Reichskristallnacht" they wanted to connect that to something more appealing with charity. But low ethics reamin low ethics.,
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
mmorpg.com knows all about corporate donations with SOE dont we stradden lol. We have 2 forums people can debate and chat with each other PRE-CU NGE hits suddenly we have 2 forums that get banned if they talk to each other SINCE NGE and poof we have a new make believe crisis to justify our SOE payoff lmao.Talk about the pot calling the kettle black man. Heres a discusting arrogant know it all company who makes lousy everything to be quite honest pays off whoever they can do whatever they can to lie and make things rosey and they pull this beyond low donation.Youve got to be bleeping kidding me. You know i would of agreed with you if it was money out of Smedleys own pocket b/c hes overpayed for 1 he doesnt do anything but travel and lie his fat @ss off on interviews.Why didnt he donate out of his own pocket if this is such a "great thing" What a discusting new low. Answer me this why is this is so public? Huh whats the need to get this out so badly. Why not just donate it move on would gave them some respect but this is just really sick to advertise like that. I dont know how much theyre paying you guys but at some point you need to ask yourself how much is enough to be tied in with people who use events like that to get attention off theyre horribly made products and there ever Growing more and more bad there reputation. Guess well find huh? Go ahead block me if ya want u done it before lol i got 482 mails i can make and ip around, Nice thing about the internet is SOE cant buy it off
Originally posted by Stradden
People slag SOE for a lot of things, and sometimes rightly so, but I personally don't think that they deserve ridicule for giving money to a charity, especially one as important as this one. The more that we encourage corporate donations like this, the better, no matter how you may personally feel about the company.
SWG sucks because: It was changed to be a game that is completely different in every aspect of play from what it originally was, that this change was made behind the customer's back without customer participation until AFTER the fact, and that fraud was commited along the way (the TOOW expansion was marketed with features for professions that SOE knew would be pulled from the game within weeks). This is why they ultimately offered refunds for it, lest SOE executives get strung up for potential consumer fraud charges.
Despite this, and the loss of far in excess of half the customer base, SOE refuses to even do so much as apologize to the victims, instead they kept blaming us (the Chris Cao incident as an example) and they refuse to take the NGE back or offer us alternative pre NGE servers (other MMOs have done classic servers sucessfully).
Therefore, SOE sucks as well.
It's not as if anyone who says "SWG sucks" or "SOE sucks" who was a victim of SOE and their NGE doesn't have miles and miles of reason to say so. As far as "NGE sucks" that sort of doesn't need any arguing, it's a fact. If it didn't "suck" they wouldn't have lost all those customers and gotten all that ill will in the press, nor have to promise "not to NGE" everything else they touch (Vanguard, POTBS), would they?
Also, I'd like to see this "personage" standard applied evenly. When GreyPawn comes here and berates US as a group (which he has) and we ARE actual people, not a nonsentient video game, I'd like to see his posts deleted and his account disciplined as well.
10k is petty cash for an outfit like SOE: Pony up 100k or more and my attitude will change. The fact that they made an announcment indicates this wasn't charity, it was advertising. Forgive me for being cynical about a company that deliberately and with malice aforethought told its existing player base to get lost thinking they'd get a different demographic in higher numbers.
The entire housing purge COULD have been avoided IF they left the original housing decay rules in effect; there were literally hundreds of structures on servers that were "condemned" but still around because a decision was made not to remove housing for lack of maintenance, probably in order to create the illusion of populated worlds for new players. Housing used to poof if you ran out of money that was deliberately deposited in the house. That rule was changed to automatically tap into the money in your bank to keep the payments going, whether you liked it or not. Then they decided to "condemn" structures that could no longer be supported because the bank account had been exhausted, and the structure remained in the world, useless, creating lag by being loaded, anyways.
Then Katrina came along and created a new situation on top of this, one of SOE's much more admirable moves, one they should be praised for...very atypical of them, I might point out, which makes it even more remarkable. Heck,they basically let Katrina affected players play for free for two years, showing considerably more concern that the deserting coward in the White House did.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Yep im still waiting for an answer Stradden why is that donation so publicized? Cabalist not mention the donations they pay mmorpg.com for advertising it on here as well.Someday SOE if they havent already done themselves in with SWG that whole putting spyware on celine dion cd's "illegally" and was proven in court and they lost that case to they will do the final deathblow so we dont have to deal with the next overrated overhyped PS4 when 9 out of 10 people regretted buying there PS3.SWG lol im still amazed this pos is in existence seriously how is it running still?.Ok stradden let me know your answer to why that was publicized i just cant wait to hear you justify this lol.
Originally posted by cabalist
A very good point. It's a publicity stunt if you take advantage of the charity for PR gain, as in advertising it. So, SOE got what they intended to get, more than $10K's worth of PR out of $10K.
*Games on our site will be treated just as we treat people. Unsubstantiated comments about specific or general games will be penalized in nearly the same way attacks against people will. The exception is that you can say mean things about games provided you back it up with reasons. Example: "Game X sucks." is not a legitimate comment. "Game X sucks, because..." is acceptable.
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I think their is grounds for rage in regards to the context with which this donation was given. I do not think anyone is blasting Sony for giving money to charity. I think some are upset with the context. They attached the charity donation to a black spot on their games lineup. Partly in a effort to cover it up, or soften the negative impression. They did not have to do this. They could have just handed money over instead they used it as a publicity stunt, and a poorly considered one at that. You can blast them for the stunt, and not be against charity. The same way you could be against the war in Iraq, and not be against the soldiers that were forced to fight in it. They are not the same thing.
Lets for examples sake say I decided to donate money to charity, and do it as a publicity stunt. Lets say I will donate twenty dollars to a charity for every kitten I drown up to a hundred kittens. I go out in the middle of town publicize it, and proceed to dunk kitties. I even involve the towns children telling them to bring me kitties. Obviously in life this will upset a lot of people. Technically in many states however it is perfectly legal. Some states have no laws against animal cruelty. Technically by a twisted logic I am doing a good thing. One hundred dead kittens might help a kid get medical treatment, or help cure a disease.
Applying the logic some on this forum encourage nobody should dare attack me for my actions, because it is done in the name of charity. This is the difference between methodology and results. Were I to cure a disease it would be good, but if I cured it by murdering a thousand people. Would it still be good? Possibly for the people I save, but those thousands that suffered a horrible death might disagree.
People have a right to complain about the methodology behind the donation which might be offensive, and not actually be against a charity or making donations to a charity. Sony used it as a publicity stunt, and thus they are not entirely noble in their actions. They are getting something out of them. Anyone saying you can't take issue with Sony for a poorly conceived stunt simply because a charity is involved is perhaps the greatest of fools. That is a logic of infinite justification. All one needs to do is donate to a charity to erase bad behavior. Hell you can engage in bad behavior while doing it, and anyone outraged can be marked as a monster.
It'd be nice if SOE were as charitable to their own customers. If they can contribute money to a charity, why can't they spend money on classic servers (which would only make them more money)?
Instead, they have been rude, crude, disrespectful, and unprofessional. They continue to maintain the fiction that the NGE is the best version of the game ever. They continue to start EVERY (rare) conversation with the player base with "what can we do to make you like the game except what you want us to do that would make you like the game"?
SOE deserves their well earned reputation. They not only rolled the bus over the SWG customers, they keep rolling it backwards and forwards over us.
It's no accident that SWG was the runaway "winner" of so many MMOWTF awards (that thread that GreyNoob necroed).
When you go to work for a company that is covered in excrement, you should expect to end up smelling.
Why must you people continue to be complete and utter ignorant idiots? SOE LICENSED Star Wars from Lucas Arts. The whole NGE was forced upon them by Lucas Arts, and changes continue to come from them. Why does SOE put up with it? Because SWG is still making them craploads of cash. Not as much as WoW, but enough for them to stick with this, even with the hell that the old school players give them for it.
If you want old school SWG, look for the Emulation project that is so widely visible. SOE can't open up "classic" servers because of the license, so quit holding out hope that by sitting around bitching, moaning and complaining enough will get you what you wish.
If you want a SIMILAR experience, with a Science Fantasy feel, try out Ryzom. Not quite the same, but it will have to do.
SOE should be applauded for their charitable contributions rather than ridiculed because they made the game you loved something you now hate.
I'm afraid you have your facts a little, (well a lot), mixed up. LA may have indeed played a part in NGE, but CU and C6CD were totally the fault or the revels (depends on how you see it) of SOE. There has been countless threads over whos at fault with NGE also and all fingers point at SOE. They actually took the blame for NGE after the fact. Even in the MMORPG.com video interview with DM and Blix, Blix says very strongly that the dev team will certainly try to not repeat past mistakes. LA has veto power and their "blame" may be that they didn't veto these massive changes.
And your analogy of "classic" servers is completely false also. I personally spoke with Lorin Jameson (Deadmeat) and classic servers were talked about at SOE. They even went so far as to bring up CU on their internal servers. He told me the decision was made that classic servers would not be done due to business implications, not licencing. They do not have the support staff to run and maintain 2 different games. He did say that pre-CU was not an option and did not ellaborate as to why. They could bring up a CU classic server but CHOOSE not to.
And if you notice, I did not get into the debate on if SOE made the contribution for PR purposes or out of their hearts, so to speak. Really, it doesn't matter why the $ was donated, just the fact that it was. The part I did get into was the FACT that SOE continues to implant MASSIVE changes to SWG, continues to lose subs over it, and take another player base that they created and totally alienate them. More "classic" mistakes even when promised not to.
Myself and a bunch of past and currant SWG players are now, (like last night) are trying Entropia Universe. Seems to have a lot of past SWG in it, skill boxes, sand box, crafting, player houseing, etc etc. It looks very promising and it's free!
Holy crap Cabalist...
How can you actually bash a company for giving money to charity? I know, I know, they are rude to you. They didn't donate to YOUR charity. The "Help the displaced SWG gamers find a new MMO". It's sad, really it is.
Whatever your personal feelings are for the NGE debacle, you can't fault a company for helping give people homes who don't. I'm sure, it's hard to see that point of view when you are sitting in your own house on your PC. But tell me how you feel after you get evicted. It changes your perspective, believe me.
I'm not going to fault anyone for not giving to Habitat, but honestly, if you could, would you have given $10,000? I know what it's like to be homeless, and I still can't see me being that generous.
As to the whole LA vs. SOE argument... At the Hollywood and games Summit, which I was privy to attend, Nicholas Beliaeff of Sony Online said that Sony has complete control over SWG and Lucas Arts had no say in the development process of the game. LA didn't kill the game.
I was displaced just as much as the rest of you. I do not like what they did, but that shouldn't be the sole factor on judging the company. This, coupled with the fact they have given Katrina victims free subs for 2 years now means I will be playing SOE games if I am personally interested. SOE isn't the massive black mark it was for me 2 years ago.
I blame those who give the ok to do things. If an employee of a company or your subcontractor want s to do something, and management has to approve it, then the fault of something going wrong falls squarely on the shoulders of management. It is why you have management.Otherwise your letting the underlings run your company.
So even if SOE made the NGE, LA had to test it, and then give the OK to SOE to go ahead and publish it. If LA missed something, or screwed up with not seeing something, then it is LA's.
But to beleive that LA didn't approve and say go ahead or make a huge change with SOE, thats absurd. LA is the stingiest compaqny when it comes to their IP, and you will not find a company with a tighter strangle hold on their IP.
Using the "LEC must approve EVERYTHING" excuse doesn't fly. Approval didn't take this long back when they were able to push a publish out every 3-4 weeks did it?
Enough is enough. People need to quit making excuses for SOE and LEC, and those companies sure as hell need to quit using them.
Fact of the matter is, they pissed a ton of people off, they lost 200K+ customers, and they acquired the worst reputation in the industry. There is a large group of people who rule out MMOs simply on the basis that SOE is involved... Their name is SO bad that the "NGE question" has to be answered even when they strike a deal to HOST someone ELSE'S MMO (POTBS)...
When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging. That is what wasting even 5 minutes of development time on the NGE version of the game amounts to. Much less the year+ they have wasted. Look what it's got them, wow, 2 months of 90K subs when they'd fallen to 40 something K before! Guess where they are now? Back down to the collapse curve they were on...
I blame those who give the ok to do things. If an employee of a company or your subcontractor want s to do something, and management has to approve it, then the fault of something going wrong falls squarely on the shoulders of management. It is why you have management.Otherwise your letting the underlings run your company.
So even if SOE made the NGE, LA had to test it, and then give the OK to SOE to go ahead and publish it. If LA missed something, or screwed up with not seeing something, then it is LA's.
But to beleive that LA didn't approve and say go ahead or make a huge change with SOE, thats absurd. LA is the stingiest compaqny when it comes to their IP, and you will not find a company with a tighter strangle hold on their IP.
LA is not an MMO company. They do not have an MMO development team. They do not have an MMO testing team. They do not test everything that goes into the game. The only checking they do is to make sure the SOE hasn't added anything into the game that could potentially get LA in IP trouble. They make sure everything they see is actually owned by them.Because, yes, LA is stingy when it comes to the MONEY of the Star Wars IP. Gameplay? Canon? They could care less about and you know it. I love LA... I still buy most of their Star Wars games, but lets face it. They are milking the cow dry. They are trying to get all the money possible out of it and thats all LA has vested into the SWG project.
Gameplay changes are NOT reviewed by them, made by them or approved by them. That is all done in house at SOE.
Does any of this really matter more the fact that a family in desperate need will now have a place to call home, a place to feel safe, a place to start rebuilding their lives?
There are tons of threads discussing, arguing, etc. on why SOE sucks/rocks, argue there. Who is wrong or right and whether this was a "stunt" or not doesn't really matter more than what donations like these result in at the end of the day.
Gameplay changes are NOT reviewed by them, made by them or approved by them. That is all done in house at SOE.
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It would not be possible for you to be more wrong. EVERY change made to the game has to gain the approval of LEC, it's one of the reasons change does not happen as quickly. And as that every change has to be approved by LEC it then becomes part of the lore of Star Wars like it or not. I remember way back before launch SOE wanted to put in Naboo as a planet for the game and that decision was made by George himself. The reason spice can no longer be made was all LEC, it would be easy to enable it again for smugglers to make and I am sure the smugglers would like it but LEC will not let that happen.
i agree....soe haters only see the gripe with their game. Not to mention the fact as you said, that someone might now have a home and not freeze or go homeless
According to folks who were actually involved with the NGE's conception and development, LEC did nothing more than approve it. If SWG made SOE "craploads of cash", there would be a much larger development team devoted to it. As it is, SWG has the third smallest dev team (behind MxO and Planetside).
Doesn't wash, never did. What I've seen of those accounts basically amounted to SOE saying "Yeah, we are the ones who built it". Well, DUH! Of course they built it; that's their job.
What is not talked about is who conceived of the NGE and pushed it live. I'm not referring to that Battle Front-esque adaptation of JTL combat to the ground game; it wasn't a very good idea because the engine couldn't and can't support it properly. But if NGE was that and nothing else, the reaction would not have been remotely as harsh. The heart of NGE was the near-amputation of the game's complexity and noncombat aspects, streamlining down to a railroaded, straitjacketed class-and-level console game aimed (they made no bones about this) squarely at children.
Changes of this magnitude go far beyond the rubber stamp approval process. This is Star Wars™; much more minor things have gone unfixed since launch because LEC refused to sign off on them. I can believe that LEC, lacking understanding of the MMO market, might not understand the difference, but SOE has not such excuse. Galaxies took a significant hit with the CU just 6 months before, and was only just (arguably) recovering when the NGE bomb hit.
Brenlo, the head of 'Community Relations' of all of SOE (a job he does very, very poorly) posted on the official SWG forum that SOE both conceived and developed the NGE. That was in response to a post that straight out asked if LEC forced the NGE on the game. Jeff Freeman (former Lead Gameplay designer for SWG)posted, on this forum, that the NGE was created without any directive from LEC (do a search here for posts by "Dundee").
SOE tanked the game and LEC allowed them to do it, twice. The folks who commented on it didn't just say "Yeah, we are the ones who built it", they also say "It was our idea, LEC never made us do it". LEC deserves part of the blame for allowing SOE to implement the NGE, but it was the folks at SOE who came up with it and pushed for it to be implemented.
Taking ill gotten money even for charity is not considered appropriate by many charities because it says a chartity is willing to ignore the bad just for money which is not why they are a charity.
Charities should actually be more careful whom they associate with as greed is the exact opposite of charity. As the old saying goes you shouldn't rob Peter to pay Paul.
Charities should be discouraging greed, not helping to promote them. Corporate sponserships. Corporate events. Lets tie our name to xyz charity and mail it out to potential customers?
I am not saying this was even the case here. I know it happens. Just look at Chartity events today. Is it about charity and giving back anymore or is it a marketing tool to generate even more money? A cynic's view might not be so blind to the exploition of charity to improve ones own economic plight at which case is it really giving back?
A lot of cases business won't donate unless they have a tangible "reward" for there donation, IE there name on event materials and awards for there "worK" so on and so forth. Is that really charity? If you still say yes, did it help more then it hurt? So you measure that how exactly?
1murders gains is worth helping feed 10 people? 100 people? 1000 people?
Freeman was accused of having said that, true. I thought I read all of his posts here in the Refuge, and I don't recall that. He was always really careful about what he said; mostly it was all about the process. Some posters have complained about excess use of the passive voice in his posts: "Mistakes were made; there were errors in judgment", carefully avoiding naming any names. Freeman was candid about the logic behind the NGE (lose a few players to gain many more), but not so candid about who came up with that proposition.
i am sure the homeless or those in desperate need of a home appreciate the money any way it comes in. I don't think THEY would shun a company for donating $10k for their home because the way the developed a game
Sure they would, if they were ex-swg players,
funny
100% with you there pitty more games companys didnt do the same thing
I acknowledge that people have legit gripes with SOE. Personally, I have no real feelings toward the company as a whole one way or the other.
My only point was that charitable donations should always be encouraged. It's a good thing.
And yes, I do see the irony of giving such a donation for a demo project...
I'd be a little less visible defending them if I were you. It's not as if there is anything for your site to gain anyway, as SOE isn't even really a legit contender in the MMO marketplace anymore. Are they even top 5 in subs anymore if you combine all their games? SOE is at best a 2nd tier publisher at this point, and they are rapidly falling into the third tier.
SOE has long been eclipsed by Blizzard, NCSoft, and yes, even Turbine, which has 4 mil subs for LOTRO...
SWG isn't even the #1 sci-fi MMO anymore... EVE has long surpassed it in subs. It's a great game, it's Pre-CU in space. Whenever you mention the NGE to any CCP people they thank SOE for it... Oh, and Eve is getting a ground game...
wow, your sheer hate amazes me lol....step off thesoap box sometime dude, when you make a game and become successful, then you should open your mouth.
I agree with stradden, and you guys would seriously gripe about anything and anything. NGE screwed the pooch, yes, but you know what? ITS A FRIGGEN GAME! I got over it, and so have countless of others. In fact, i am now playing EQ2 (OMG get your pitchefork)...EQ2 is prolly one of the best mmos out there atm.
And your talk of an eve ground game is laughable. They have mentioned that they will get areas where you can get out of your ship, but thats about it. Cabalist, your the king of the I HATE SOE trolls. its quite funny and sad at the same time.
Big word to all you SWG:NGE haters - GET OVER IT. I did, and have been alot happier and less moodier since i did. And before you say i don't play swg, i played from closed beta 2003 till last month, where i discovered EQ2
As a vet of SWG from the off or so aand a 3 year players of EQ2 i have to agree with this post the irrational hate towards a games company is getting a little old and frankly silly now..its time to move on and grow up
mmorpg.com knows all about corporate donations with SOE dont we stradden lol. We have 2 forums people can debate and chat with each other PRE-CU NGE hits suddenly we have 2 forums that get banned if they talk to each other SINCE NGE and poof we have a new make believe crisis to justify our SOE payoff lmao.Talk about the pot calling the kettle black man. Heres a discusting arrogant know it all company who makes lousy everything to be quite honest pays off whoever they can do whatever they can to lie and make things rosey and they pull this beyond low donation.Youve got to be bleeping kidding me. You know i would of agreed with you if it was money out of Smedleys own pocket b/c hes overpayed for 1 he doesnt do anything but travel and lie his fat @ss off on interviews.Why didnt he donate out of his own pocket if this is such a "great thing" What a discusting new low. Answer me this why is this is so public? Huh whats the need to get this out so badly. Why not just donate it move on would gave them some respect but this is just really sick to advertise like that. I dont know how much theyre paying you guys but at some point you need to ask yourself how much is enough to be tied in with people who use events like that to get attention off theyre horribly made products and there ever Growing more and more bad there reputation. Guess well find huh? Go ahead block me if ya want u done it before lol i got 482 mails i can make and ip around, Nice thing about the internet is SOE cant buy it off
*Games on our site will be treated just as we treat people. Unsubstantiated comments about specific or general games will be penalized in nearly the same way attacks against people will. The exception is that you can say mean things about games provided you back it up with reasons.
Example: "Game X sucks." is not a legitimate comment. "Game X sucks, because..." is acceptable.
Thank you,
The Staff
MMORPG.COM
SOE house purge event had a taste of low ethics becuase SOE encouraged something like an "MMO - Reichskristallnacht" they wanted to connect that to something more appealing with charity. But low ethics reamin low ethics.,
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$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
SWG sucks because: It was changed to be a game that is completely different in every aspect of play from what it originally was, that this change was made behind the customer's back without customer participation until AFTER the fact, and that fraud was commited along the way (the TOOW expansion was marketed with features for professions that SOE knew would be pulled from the game within weeks). This is why they ultimately offered refunds for it, lest SOE executives get strung up for potential consumer fraud charges.
Despite this, and the loss of far in excess of half the customer base, SOE refuses to even do so much as apologize to the victims, instead they kept blaming us (the Chris Cao incident as an example) and they refuse to take the NGE back or offer us alternative pre NGE servers (other MMOs have done classic servers sucessfully).
Therefore, SOE sucks as well.
It's not as if anyone who says "SWG sucks" or "SOE sucks" who was a victim of SOE and their NGE doesn't have miles and miles of reason to say so. As far as "NGE sucks" that sort of doesn't need any arguing, it's a fact. If it didn't "suck" they wouldn't have lost all those customers and gotten all that ill will in the press, nor have to promise "not to NGE" everything else they touch (Vanguard, POTBS), would they?
Also, I'd like to see this "personage" standard applied evenly. When GreyPawn comes here and berates US as a group (which he has) and we ARE actual people, not a nonsentient video game, I'd like to see his posts deleted and his account disciplined as well.
I played SWG for more then 3 years and I quit playing after the NGE.
(
The truth is that there is still no other game like the pre-cu SWG
This was not just another game - This was our universe where we all had our moments of joy, passion and fun.
SOE took it away from us and they did it with style while arogantly insisting that NGE is a good thing
It is a shame that important game design descissions are taken from financial persons.
The fate of all companies who put their $$$ in front of their customers is the same - FAILURE and HATE!
Here's my point:
10k is petty cash for an outfit like SOE: Pony up 100k or more and my attitude will change. The fact that they made an announcment indicates this wasn't charity, it was advertising. Forgive me for being cynical about a company that deliberately and with malice aforethought told its existing player base to get lost thinking they'd get a different demographic in higher numbers.
The entire housing purge COULD have been avoided IF they left the original housing decay rules in effect; there were literally hundreds of structures on servers that were "condemned" but still around because a decision was made not to remove housing for lack of maintenance, probably in order to create the illusion of populated worlds for new players. Housing used to poof if you ran out of money that was deliberately deposited in the house. That rule was changed to automatically tap into the money in your bank to keep the payments going, whether you liked it or not. Then they decided to "condemn" structures that could no longer be supported because the bank account had been exhausted, and the structure remained in the world, useless, creating lag by being loaded, anyways.
Then Katrina came along and created a new situation on top of this, one of SOE's much more admirable moves, one they should be praised for...very atypical of them, I might point out, which makes it even more remarkable. Heck,they basically let Katrina affected players play for free for two years, showing considerably more concern that the deserting coward in the White House did.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
A very good point. It's a publicity stunt if you take advantage of the charity for PR gain, as in advertising it.
So, SOE got what they intended to get, more than $10K's worth of PR out of $10K.
Yep im still waiting for an answer Stradden why is that donation so publicized? Cabalist not mention the donations they pay mmorpg.com for advertising it on here as well.Someday SOE if they havent already done themselves in with SWG that whole putting spyware on celine dion cd's "illegally" and was proven in court and they lost that case to they will do the final deathblow so we dont have to deal with the next overrated overhyped PS4 when 9 out of 10 people regretted buying there PS3.SWG lol im still amazed this pos is in existence seriously how is it running still?.Ok stradden let me know your answer to why that was publicized i just cant wait to hear you justify this lol.
*Games on our site will be treated just as we treat people. Unsubstantiated comments about specific or general games will be penalized in nearly the same way attacks against people will. The exception is that you can say mean things about games provided you back it up with reasons.
Example: "Game X sucks." is not a legitimate comment. "Game X sucks, because..." is acceptable.
Thank you,
The Staff
MMORPG.COM