If you want open PvP - go look for an open PvP game. If you want PvE with optional PvP, look for that type... and on and on. It's not rocket science, folks.
I think it goes back to the very beginning. UO was only open PvP. A lot of us got our beginning of MMOs in UO. When they added Trammel and the masses voted en mass for PvE... well, that's where it all started.
The people that remember the old UO (pre-Trammel) remember how great it was (for them) to have tons of "sheep" trapped in an open PvP setting. The trouble with that setup is that the "sheep" didn't really want PvP... but since it was the only choice... they put up with it.
When Trammel came out and the Devs of UO and other upcoming MMOs saw how many preferred PvE over open PvP... well, open PvP has never been the same since. Thats my take on it anyway. Until an ambitious Developer with a unique game can prove that open PvP can once again provide subscribers en mass... it will be a PvE marketplace.
Well, I think the people who want to know why no truly "hardcore open PvP" game has been very popular, or why they eventually have restrictions put in place need to stop blaming the so-called "whining carebears" for it. They need to put the blame where it belongs - right in their own midst... namely the serial lowbie gankers who abuse those such open PvP systems.
I've seen it happen in other MMOs, but I'll use Lineage 2 as a specific example - because it's a game I actually played for a while, and saw the change take place myself.
When L2 first came out, NC Soft was very "hands off" in dealing with reports of lowbies being ganked by people many levels higher than themself. I know after being ganked repeatedly by someone for about 30 minutes right outside the Dark Elven Village at level 4, I finally contacted a GM asking them to please step in and tell them to back off so I could actually play. The GM at the time said that it's an open PvP game, that what they were doing is allowed and that I would have to find some way in-game to fight back. I said "How can I fight back if I can't even level?" They said "well, get some help from others". I said "I'm new, I don't know anyone yet." And they said "well, this is a PvP game.. we won't interfere with something that can be settled in-game".
And that was their stance. For a while.
The problem is - as it is in other MMOs I've seen - is that you have a bunch of idiots who take advantage of the open PvP nature and use it to make other players' lives miserable... And these aren't players who are "carebears" or "not hardcore enough" - they're players simply new to the game and happen to be sitting ducks. The net result was these gankers were turning away would-be new players because nothing and no one was stopping them from harassing them.
After a time, the higher level players themselves (at least on my server) started to notice that there wasn't alot of new blood coming into the game and it was becoming top-heavy. They realized a reason was likely gankers turning away new players with the constant griefing. They asked the gankers to leave lowbies alone so they could actually get some experience in the game, find their footing and actually get the population going again with some new blood. I remember reading posts about this in the official forums. The gankers didn't listen and kept doing it.
So the higher level players took the next step and asked people being harassed to post on the forums with who was griefing them, where and when. "Red Hunting" became a common thing and the higher level players would go after the gankers as they were reported. Of course, the griefers who, at level 20, had just been gloating over their latest level 5 victim would turn and run at the sight of a real challenge... or just plain log off. Because, you see, lowbie/newbie gankers are just that hardcore.
At some point, NC Soft, who had been maintaining their "hands-off" policy, must have acknowledged the ganking and abuse of the open PvP system as a problem - a bottleneck. Suddenly more rules and restrictions started being implemented. Around starter areas became "no PK" zones. Certain activities became deemed "harassment" and not "legit gameplay". And so forth.
So the blame doesn't fall on the so-called "whiney carebears". It falls on the the gankers/griefers. They abuse the open PvP. They play only to make life miserable for new players who can't fight back. They are the ones for whom those rules and restrictions are ultimately put into place.
At the end of the day, companies want to make money.... and to make money they need more subscribers. A company is going to cater to getting and keeping more new players and making more money alot faster and more aggressively than to a bunch of chest-pounding gankers who are turning those new players away.
I'm sure I'll be flamed for saying this, but that's how I see it.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It's been proved many times. UO, Shadowbane, the FFA PvP servers in DAoC, and L II apparently (wasn't familiar with that one). True FFA PvP basically doesn't work with humans. FFA PvP games have the seeds of their doom hard coded into the game design.
Not everyone that likes FFA PvP is an asshat. Unfortunately, it only takes about ten asshats per server to ruin the game for new players. No new players means no new blood, no new blood means eventually even the asshats get bored and leave. EVE is a stunning success considering how open it is. And even EVE has essentially safe space (it's a lot like post Trammel UO in that way).
FFA has been proven repeatedly to be a niche product. So no major publishers is going to devote major resources to a FFA PvP game. I can understand why that might chafe the hide of someone that really goes for that game design. However, what I don't see is why that makes some of these folks decided to bitch and moan every time a new game that isn't "Pre-trammel UO" comes out.
I liked a lot of things it turned out most folks apparently did not. ET breakfast cereal for example (if my memories from the age of 10 are to be trusted it was the best peanut butter/ chocklate flavoured cereal eva!). But I don't send angry letters to General Mills every time they come out with a new cereal because it doesn't have Es and Ts. Life moves on.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
LOTR was an ok MMORPG , I bought the lifetime membership to support for a friend who loved the books, movies etc. I felt horribly undone, I played 2 months into a launch with my guild from WoW and Eq2 , I would get laugh at for my herald getting stuck on terrian , and we even got wiped one time when the mage guy's bear got hung up on door.
Turbine to me, didnt do a great job at the beginning , much like DDO , but they ve spurnce it up nice now. I mean I know people who played since beta , they love it and have fun , so you know whatever. I personally didnt know anything about the game , movies or books when I went into it.
The first month was nice but very creepy alot of trivia , hobbie smoking crack and people grinding farms/plants. I d had continue to playing if I didnt feel like I d seen everything and most of the mobs in the game. I really enjoy the title system , despite the laughs and the yellow armor I wore for like 12 lvls or so , I loved being a captain of Man.
The whole FFA pvp / pk , hit a snagged in 2001 / early 2002, Shadowbane was launched , developers got burnt bad , UB said it was because of a niche market , Priest Online died , then Trials of Assesion (spelling) , then Dragon Empire , it just snowballed from there. People were scared to touch gore/ full pk systems. UB directored once posted on thier website about how the whole MMORPG scene was a fade.
Even EA / Orgin and Mircosoft cut & run from great projects.
It ll take a guy as great as Statesman to raise full pvp from the grave. They laugh at COH not even making a dent in MMORPG genre, it was only of the only comic / superhero computer games to reach 2 in the most wanted list. While it doesnt have godly staying power, it was great product and a game I still deeply love.
Even Jake Song the master of PVP games is shying away from full pvp with designs like a computer controlled side to balance out the weaker side/ While I ve out grown PVP and still miss the sieges on Lineage 1 , it still very sad to see no game released in the last 5 years with meaningful pvp.
Closest has been RF Online but Codemasters cant even trusted with a house plant let alone a MMORPG.
It's been proved many times. UO, Shadowbane, the FFA PvP servers in DAoC, and L II apparently (wasn't familiar with that one). True FFA PvP basically doesn't work with humans. FFA PvP games have the seeds of their doom hard coded into the game design. Not everyone that likes FFA PvP is an asshat. Unfortunately, it only takes about ten asshats per server to ruin the game for new players. No new players means no new blood, no new blood means eventually even the asshats get bored and leave. EVE is a stunning success considering how open it is. And even EVE has essentially safe space (it's a lot like post Trammel UO in that way). FFA has been proven repeatedly to be a niche product. So no major publishers is going to devote major resources to a FFA PvP game. I can understand why that might chafe the hide of someone that really goes for that game design. However, what I don't see is why that makes some of these folks decided to bitch and moan every time a new game that isn't "Pre-trammel UO" comes out. I liked a lot of things it turned out most folks apparently did not. ET breakfast cereal for example (if my memories from the age of 10 are to be trusted it was the best peanut butter/ chocklate flavoured cereal eva!). But I don't send angry letters to General Mills every time they come out with a new cereal because it doesn't have Es and Ts. Life moves on.
Well it's funny, because the long-time players I've known of L2, some playing since Beta and straight on through all the changes, all the Chronicles and so forth up 'til today still greatly enjoy the game. The rules/restrictions haven't affected them at all. It hasn't kept them from PvP'ing in the least... there's still plenty of clan wars, plenty of castle sieges and plenty of random "out and about" PvP'ing going on. The politics alone of forming alliances, or making enemies, sometimes on the basis of who-helped-who in a single siege, is enough to keep some of them playing. In other words, they don't spend all their time in level 10- areas ganking lowbies all day. Some kinda don't like the "feeling" of being restricted, but it doesn't irk them enough to come onto forums and cry "those damn carebears ruined my game!". They continue playing the game.
In my time, what I've noticed is it's the would-be gankers/griefers who cry and complain the most when a game's PvP is either non-existant or isn't "hardcore enough" for them. Hardcore meaning, free-for-all, no restrictions, no penalties, anytime, anywhere... in other words.. the very type they would then turn around and abuse.
My opinion.. if players want to see a truly open, "self-policed" PvP game succeed, then the legit PvP'ers need to take it upon themselves to do like they did in L2 and start dealing with the griefers/gankers themselves... only don't wait 'til it becomes a problem and the new player population shows signs of stagnating. Do it before it has a chance to. Problem with that is, human nature strikes again. People are ultimately interested in their own progress. They don't want to become a volunteer police force because while they're policing the lower level areas, their potential rivals/enemies are continuing to progress and become a greater threat to them. And, really, no one can expect anyone else to take on that much responsibility on their own.
So... I guess... there-in lies the problem.
Perhaps a game like that needs a stronger NPC presence in and around the lower-level areas so it's harder for gankers/griefers to move around unfettered.
Or.. there's always the Shadowbane approach - a game I don't think anyone would call "carebear" for its PvP policy. Basically you level to 20 on a PvP-free "starting area", giving you time to develop and build your character to be more PvP ready by the time you're ready to leave and hit the mainland.
The end result is the same - new players need a chance to learn the game, find their footing and progress enough to become at least competitive. That's not carebear.. that's common-sense.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Truly remarkable news actually.... and perhaps the first time they've published the real reason for not let players play the dark forces at time of launch. Wasn't really a lore issue, and looks like they are following the same path COX did getting one side of the game working well before adding open PVP and all of the balancing issues that can present.
Truly remarkable news actually.... and perhaps the first time they've published the real reason for not let players play the dark forces at time of launch. Wasn't really a lore issue, and looks like they are following the same path COX did getting one side of the game working well before adding open PVP and all of the balancing issues that can present.
Exactly 1st time they give us the real reason...
And how do you know outside of your opinion that this is the real reason. They have stated many times over the years that license restrictions and lore not supporting evil races like they do the free races are the reasons for no playable evil races.
Now i admit there are probably other reasons that they haven't told us for not doing it. But to assume that one reason alone is the only and real reason they haven't done this is ridiculous. Besides for them to add open PVP and totally go against the 100% consensual PvP in the game. They would loose a huge player base that they have built up and would in my opinion be as devastating as the debacle that SOE pulled with SWG.
I think it would all be cleared up if it were just accepted as such: There are three basic types of MMO players... 1. Pro PvP
2. Pro PvE
3. Pro Both. Some games cater to one type, some cater to the other, some (try to) cater to both. The ideal setting it would seem, then, would be for someone to choose one of the available games that best suits their style, or wait for one that's upcoming. It makes no sense and achieves nothing to complain about a game like LoTRO or FFXI or any other decidedly PvE game not having open PvP, or not having "enough" of it. They're not designed as open PvP games. They're not marketed as open PvP Games. They're not open PvP games. I don't know about you, but complaining about something not being what it wasn't intended to be in the first place seems a bit ridiculous to me. If you were looking for a new sports car, are you going to go into an eco-friendly car dealership and then complain about how all the cars only have 4 cylinder 1.2 liter engines, and how they're carebear to not have "real sports cars"? Would you stand there blaming it on the "whiney carebears who can't handle a real sports machine"? I'd hope not. Or, I at least hope I could be one of the sales people there to laugh at the idiocy of it. If you want open PvP - go look for an open PvP game. If you want PvE with optional PvP, look for that type... and on and on. It's not rocket science, folks.
/agree
play what you want dont bash what you dont want to play
I just got the trial for LORTO and i have to say for a pro PVE game it is one of/ if not the best there is
now i cant say much for monster play but i can say that i love this game and who knows how far it will go! they could add/change/remove so many things no one can really know what could happen
but i do feel like i will be playing this for a long time
now i do enjoy PVP..which makes me hope for some type of non monster play.. (like an arena system sorta like guild wars) i for one am glad that they did not make two factions for it (at least to me would seems like wow with a different skin and i know both sides would be lacking something..... i love the graphics and the gamplay is solid and i know it is for other people for i see a bunch
"Now i admit there are probably other reasons that they haven't told us for not doing it. B"
QUOTE:"So, there are numerous reasons as to why we didn't chase that down for launch. Most of them add up to the combination of Time and Quality. Time - in the sense that LOTRO is taking place before the War gets into full swing. Quality - in the sense that building a high quality content experience is... well, hard. We managed to do it for the Free People. Doubling down would be very difficult, and likely compromise the game for others. So, it's not to say we won't ever go down that road... You can just expect it to be further down the line."
Even when TurbINE dir HIMSELF gives REAL reasons you can't see the reality
sorry for you, really.
you don't have to admit it, just READ Turbine's words. Not MINE, but TURBINE's. TURBINE"s do you really understand ????
"Now i admit there are probably other reasons that they haven't told us for not doing it. B"
QUOTE:"So, there are numerous reasons as to why we didn't chase that down for launch. Most of them add up to the combination of Time and Quality. Time - in the sense that LOTRO is taking place before the War gets into full swing. Quality - in the sense that building a high quality content experience is... well, hard. We managed to do it for the Free People. Doubling down would be very difficult, and likely compromise the game for others. So, it's not to say we won't ever go down that road... You can just expect it to be further down the line." Even when TurbINE dir HIMSELF gives REAL reasons you can't see the reality
sorry for you, really. you don't have to admit it, just READ Turbine's words. Not MINE, but TURBINE's. TURBINE"s do you really understand ???? Turbine ? AC2, DDO, then Lotro.
Have you ever heard of covering all your bases. Cause if they say for definate it won't happen and it does later on. Wich i am not saying it won't. Then everyone will come back and say you lied. You said there will never be playable evil races. Yet now there is.
You are reading to much into what they are saying. They are just covering their bases in a situation were they realize that the future can hold anyting and the market holds them to every word they utter.
I been following this game since 2003. I have read every little bit of info they have released on it. I know the reality of the game and what the devs say. They have said alot of things in the cover all bases mind set. That does not make it the real reason why they don't have playable evil races.
I am looking at all the years and what they said. During that time they have said license restrictions and lore prevent open PVP many times. Also that the lore doesn't support evil races as playable many times. here they say something one time and you take it as the real reason.
I feel sorry for you. That you have to read more into what a dev says than what is actually there. When it is obvious and well known they cover all of their bases when asked such questions. What i see in this comment you quoted is. We have no plans for playable evil races or open PVP. But we realize that things change and if they do change we don't want people coming back and saying you said no to these. So we will leave the door open to cover our asses incase it happens.
Now do you understand? They aren't admitting to anything they are just covering their asses incase it does happen. They are not admitting to anthing. They never do. Their whole buisness runs around keeping us and their competention in the dark until they release what they are working on.
A. The orcs and such in the stories were pretty irredeemably evil. They wern't "noble savages" ala WoW orcs, they were sadistic evil basterds, clearly intellectually and morally inferior to the free peaples. From a lore standpoint, even developing them as a full blown playable alternative to the Freeps is questionable.
B. Even if they wanted to do it, they wouldn't have had time and resources to do it well. It's something they may choose to revisit it in the future, but it's not a development priority right now.
Reading between the lines of everything that they have said about the evil side, that's what I come up with. The quoted interview response focuses only on the second issue, but I don't think that invalidates the first issue.
But if it makes you happy to believe that Turbine planned to have 1-50 orcs all along, and wasn't able to get to it because they are too feeble of a developer, by all means go for it.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Basicly they are saying, we did'nt have time or ressources to do it. We went the easy way, thus making this game a clone of all the other fantasy mmo currently on the market.
bingo....i have said it since beta....
all this free content you guys are getting every few months.....its just parts of the game added after developement that was supposed to be in from the start.
Hey I am not a Trubine fan by any means.
However, I would like to see yall's MMO that you designed.
mmmm yeeeah, thats greeat, a little to the left would be greeeat, ::sips coffee mug:::
Comments
I think it goes back to the very beginning. UO was only open PvP. A lot of us got our beginning of MMOs in UO. When they added Trammel and the masses voted en mass for PvE... well, that's where it all started.
The people that remember the old UO (pre-Trammel) remember how great it was (for them) to have tons of "sheep" trapped in an open PvP setting. The trouble with that setup is that the "sheep" didn't really want PvP... but since it was the only choice... they put up with it.
When Trammel came out and the Devs of UO and other upcoming MMOs saw how many preferred PvE over open PvP... well, open PvP has never been the same since. Thats my take on it anyway. Until an ambitious Developer with a unique game can prove that open PvP can once again provide subscribers en mass... it will be a PvE marketplace.
Well, I think the people who want to know why no truly "hardcore open PvP" game has been very popular, or why they eventually have restrictions put in place need to stop blaming the so-called "whining carebears" for it. They need to put the blame where it belongs - right in their own midst... namely the serial lowbie gankers who abuse those such open PvP systems.
I've seen it happen in other MMOs, but I'll use Lineage 2 as a specific example - because it's a game I actually played for a while, and saw the change take place myself.
When L2 first came out, NC Soft was very "hands off" in dealing with reports of lowbies being ganked by people many levels higher than themself. I know after being ganked repeatedly by someone for about 30 minutes right outside the Dark Elven Village at level 4, I finally contacted a GM asking them to please step in and tell them to back off so I could actually play. The GM at the time said that it's an open PvP game, that what they were doing is allowed and that I would have to find some way in-game to fight back. I said "How can I fight back if I can't even level?" They said "well, get some help from others". I said "I'm new, I don't know anyone yet." And they said "well, this is a PvP game.. we won't interfere with something that can be settled in-game".
And that was their stance. For a while.
The problem is - as it is in other MMOs I've seen - is that you have a bunch of idiots who take advantage of the open PvP nature and use it to make other players' lives miserable... And these aren't players who are "carebears" or "not hardcore enough" - they're players simply new to the game and happen to be sitting ducks. The net result was these gankers were turning away would-be new players because nothing and no one was stopping them from harassing them.
After a time, the higher level players themselves (at least on my server) started to notice that there wasn't alot of new blood coming into the game and it was becoming top-heavy. They realized a reason was likely gankers turning away new players with the constant griefing. They asked the gankers to leave lowbies alone so they could actually get some experience in the game, find their footing and actually get the population going again with some new blood. I remember reading posts about this in the official forums. The gankers didn't listen and kept doing it.
So the higher level players took the next step and asked people being harassed to post on the forums with who was griefing them, where and when. "Red Hunting" became a common thing and the higher level players would go after the gankers as they were reported. Of course, the griefers who, at level 20, had just been gloating over their latest level 5 victim would turn and run at the sight of a real challenge... or just plain log off. Because, you see, lowbie/newbie gankers are just that hardcore.
At some point, NC Soft, who had been maintaining their "hands-off" policy, must have acknowledged the ganking and abuse of the open PvP system as a problem - a bottleneck. Suddenly more rules and restrictions started being implemented. Around starter areas became "no PK" zones. Certain activities became deemed "harassment" and not "legit gameplay". And so forth.
So the blame doesn't fall on the so-called "whiney carebears". It falls on the the gankers/griefers. They abuse the open PvP. They play only to make life miserable for new players who can't fight back. They are the ones for whom those rules and restrictions are ultimately put into place.
At the end of the day, companies want to make money.... and to make money they need more subscribers. A company is going to cater to getting and keeping more new players and making more money alot faster and more aggressively than to a bunch of chest-pounding gankers who are turning those new players away.
I'm sure I'll be flamed for saying this, but that's how I see it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It's been proved many times. UO, Shadowbane, the FFA PvP servers in DAoC, and L II apparently (wasn't familiar with that one). True FFA PvP basically doesn't work with humans. FFA PvP games have the seeds of their doom hard coded into the game design.
Not everyone that likes FFA PvP is an asshat. Unfortunately, it only takes about ten asshats per server to ruin the game for new players. No new players means no new blood, no new blood means eventually even the asshats get bored and leave. EVE is a stunning success considering how open it is. And even EVE has essentially safe space (it's a lot like post Trammel UO in that way).
FFA has been proven repeatedly to be a niche product. So no major publishers is going to devote major resources to a FFA PvP game. I can understand why that might chafe the hide of someone that really goes for that game design. However, what I don't see is why that makes some of these folks decided to bitch and moan every time a new game that isn't "Pre-trammel UO" comes out.
I liked a lot of things it turned out most folks apparently did not. ET breakfast cereal for example (if my memories from the age of 10 are to be trusted it was the best peanut butter/ chocklate flavoured cereal eva!). But I don't send angry letters to General Mills every time they come out with a new cereal because it doesn't have Es and Ts. Life moves on.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
LOTR was an ok MMORPG , I bought the lifetime membership to support for a friend who loved the books, movies etc. I felt horribly undone, I played 2 months into a launch with my guild from WoW and Eq2 , I would get laugh at for my herald getting stuck on terrian , and we even got wiped one time when the mage guy's bear got hung up on door.
Turbine to me, didnt do a great job at the beginning , much like DDO , but they ve spurnce it up nice now. I mean I know people who played since beta , they love it and have fun , so you know whatever. I personally didnt know anything about the game , movies or books when I went into it.
The first month was nice but very creepy alot of trivia , hobbie smoking crack and people grinding farms/plants. I d had continue to playing if I didnt feel like I d seen everything and most of the mobs in the game. I really enjoy the title system , despite the laughs and the yellow armor I wore for like 12 lvls or so , I loved being a captain of Man.
The whole FFA pvp / pk , hit a snagged in 2001 / early 2002, Shadowbane was launched , developers got burnt bad , UB said it was because of a niche market , Priest Online died , then Trials of Assesion (spelling) , then Dragon Empire , it just snowballed from there. People were scared to touch gore/ full pk systems. UB directored once posted on thier website about how the whole MMORPG scene was a fade.
Even EA / Orgin and Mircosoft cut & run from great projects.
It ll take a guy as great as Statesman to raise full pvp from the grave. They laugh at COH not even making a dent in MMORPG genre, it was only of the only comic / superhero computer games to reach 2 in the most wanted list. While it doesnt have godly staying power, it was great product and a game I still deeply love.
Even Jake Song the master of PVP games is shying away from full pvp with designs like a computer controlled side to balance out the weaker side/ While I ve out grown PVP and still miss the sieges on Lineage 1 , it still very sad to see no game released in the last 5 years with meaningful pvp.
Closest has been RF Online but Codemasters cant even trusted with a house plant let alone a MMORPG.
Well it's funny, because the long-time players I've known of L2, some playing since Beta and straight on through all the changes, all the Chronicles and so forth up 'til today still greatly enjoy the game. The rules/restrictions haven't affected them at all. It hasn't kept them from PvP'ing in the least... there's still plenty of clan wars, plenty of castle sieges and plenty of random "out and about" PvP'ing going on. The politics alone of forming alliances, or making enemies, sometimes on the basis of who-helped-who in a single siege, is enough to keep some of them playing. In other words, they don't spend all their time in level 10- areas ganking lowbies all day. Some kinda don't like the "feeling" of being restricted, but it doesn't irk them enough to come onto forums and cry "those damn carebears ruined my game!". They continue playing the game.
In my time, what I've noticed is it's the would-be gankers/griefers who cry and complain the most when a game's PvP is either non-existant or isn't "hardcore enough" for them. Hardcore meaning, free-for-all, no restrictions, no penalties, anytime, anywhere... in other words.. the very type they would then turn around and abuse.
My opinion.. if players want to see a truly open, "self-policed" PvP game succeed, then the legit PvP'ers need to take it upon themselves to do like they did in L2 and start dealing with the griefers/gankers themselves... only don't wait 'til it becomes a problem and the new player population shows signs of stagnating. Do it before it has a chance to. Problem with that is, human nature strikes again. People are ultimately interested in their own progress. They don't want to become a volunteer police force because while they're policing the lower level areas, their potential rivals/enemies are continuing to progress and become a greater threat to them. And, really, no one can expect anyone else to take on that much responsibility on their own.
So... I guess... there-in lies the problem.
Perhaps a game like that needs a stronger NPC presence in and around the lower-level areas so it's harder for gankers/griefers to move around unfettered.
Or.. there's always the Shadowbane approach - a game I don't think anyone would call "carebear" for its PvP policy. Basically you level to 20 on a PvP-free "starting area", giving you time to develop and build your character to be more PvP ready by the time you're ready to leave and hit the mainland.
The end result is the same - new players need a chance to learn the game, find their footing and progress enough to become at least competitive. That's not carebear.. that's common-sense.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Probly already been said, but I am not reading every thing cuz it is probly all the same thing repeated like this is most likely.
City of Heroes had no pvp the first year until they released City of Villains unlocking it.
Exactly 1st time they give us the real reason...
Exactly 1st time they give us the real reason...
And how do you know outside of your opinion that this is the real reason. They have stated many times over the years that license restrictions and lore not supporting evil races like they do the free races are the reasons for no playable evil races.
Now i admit there are probably other reasons that they haven't told us for not doing it. But to assume that one reason alone is the only and real reason they haven't done this is ridiculous. Besides for them to add open PVP and totally go against the 100% consensual PvP in the game. They would loose a huge player base that they have built up and would in my opinion be as devastating as the debacle that SOE pulled with SWG.
I do not think that turbine is that stupid.
play what you want dont bash what you dont want to play
I just got the trial for LORTO and i have to say for a pro PVE game it is one of/ if not the best there is
now i cant say much for monster play but i can say that i love this game and who knows how far it will go! they could add/change/remove so many things no one can really know what could happen
but i do feel like i will be playing this for a long time
now i do enjoy PVP..which makes me hope for some type of non monster play.. (like an arena system sorta like guild wars) i for one am glad that they did not make two factions for it (at least to me would seems like wow with a different skin and i know both sides would be lacking something..... i love the graphics and the gamplay is solid and i know it is for other people for i see a bunch
"Now i admit there are probably other reasons that they haven't told us for not doing it. B"
QUOTE:"So, there are numerous reasons as to why we didn't chase that down for launch. Most of them add up to the combination of Time and Quality. Time - in the sense that LOTRO is taking place before the War gets into full swing. Quality - in the sense that building a high quality content experience is... well, hard. We managed to do it for the Free People. Doubling down would be very difficult, and likely compromise the game for others. So, it's not to say we won't ever go down that road... You can just expect it to be further down the line."
Even when TurbINE dir HIMSELF gives REAL reasons you can't see the reality
sorry for you, really.
you don't have to admit it, just READ Turbine's words. Not MINE, but TURBINE's. TURBINE"s do you really understand ????
Turbine ?
AC2, DDO, then Lotro.
You are reading to much into what they are saying. They are just covering their bases in a situation were they realize that the future can hold anyting and the market holds them to every word they utter.
I been following this game since 2003. I have read every little bit of info they have released on it. I know the reality of the game and what the devs say. They have said alot of things in the cover all bases mind set. That does not make it the real reason why they don't have playable evil races.
I am looking at all the years and what they said. During that time they have said license restrictions and lore prevent open PVP many times. Also that the lore doesn't support evil races as playable many times. here they say something one time and you take it as the real reason.
I feel sorry for you. That you have to read more into what a dev says than what is actually there. When it is obvious and well known they cover all of their bases when asked such questions. What i see in this comment you quoted is. We have no plans for playable evil races or open PVP. But we realize that things change and if they do change we don't want people coming back and saying you said no to these. So we will leave the door open to cover our asses incase it happens.
Now do you understand? They aren't admitting to anything they are just covering their asses incase it does happen. They are not admitting to anthing. They never do. Their whole buisness runs around keeping us and their competention in the dark until they release what they are working on.
The way I interpret Turbine's overall stance is:
A. The orcs and such in the stories were pretty irredeemably evil. They wern't "noble savages" ala WoW orcs, they were sadistic evil basterds, clearly intellectually and morally inferior to the free peaples. From a lore standpoint, even developing them as a full blown playable alternative to the Freeps is questionable.
B. Even if they wanted to do it, they wouldn't have had time and resources to do it well. It's something they may choose to revisit it in the future, but it's not a development priority right now.
Reading between the lines of everything that they have said about the evil side, that's what I come up with. The quoted interview response focuses only on the second issue, but I don't think that invalidates the first issue.
But if it makes you happy to believe that Turbine planned to have 1-50 orcs all along, and wasn't able to get to it because they are too feeble of a developer, by all means go for it.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
all this free content you guys are getting every few months.....its just parts of the game added after developement that was supposed to be in from the start.
Hey I am not a Trubine fan by any means.
However, I would like to see yall's MMO that you designed.
mmmm yeeeah, thats greeat, a little to the left would be greeeat, ::sips coffee mug:::
thats just silly.
they added the banners back in because it made sence and for some of us captains a more enjoyable class