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MMORPGs going downhill
Ginkeq
Member Posts: 615
They cater to idiotic 5-15 year olds and have made a trivial time-sink game where skill doesn't exist and you can be #1 by picking a certain character and talent tree.
You can sit in a BG all day and have the best gear in the game (most people do this because they don't have real lives or anything of that nature so they can grind the gear fairly easy)
The game is a timesink and any older person with any kind of life realizes the game was set up for newbies who could invest huge amounts of time on pointless objectives.
WoW is probably the worst MMORPG ever made. It is disgusting how lousy the game is, and yet it retains so many people. That is only because all the other MMORPG companies are pathetic and can't think of any new ideas.
Seriously. FPS MMORPGs with no endgame, and where they provide a ton of quests just to have people suscribe for a bit only to realize the game is total trash.
I hope MMORPG companies don't try to cater to the dumb audience that plays WoW though, because I wouldn't want to play on the same server as a bunch of immature dumb kids where the company will just throw out time-sink content that is trivial and pointless to give them something to do.
Comments
I don't know if I can beat up devs for time sinks. People have taken MMOs, which are supposed to be a form of recreation, and turned them into something else. Recreation should be, what...a few hours a week? 10 tops? When people started playing MMOs for 30, 40, even 70 hours a week...AND expected to be entertained for all of that...timesinks became a necessity.
Going downhill you say? And after the best financial year in MMO gaming history.
Please don't run for Secretary of Treasury anytime soon.
Another Chicken Little preaching doomsday.
If I had a dime for every post like this I could fund my own AAA MMOG idea.
You do know that you don't "run" for Secretary of the Treasury, right?
You do know that you don't "run" for Secretary of the Treasury, right?
Glad someone else noticed that... It is in fact an appointed position.
Anyway, I see nothing wrong with the state of MMOs.
If you're unhappy with the MMO genre, maybe you don't like the genre as a whole. Find a different type of game to play.
I personally am looking forward to Warhammer. I think it brings quite a bit of interesting stuff to the table. AOC, and Aion are looking very nice too.
*edit*
Then go play one of the MMOs from 1998. DAoC is a fantastic MMO. Still #1 in my book
- - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -
You know the mmorpg companies, as in the ones who create them, are only going after mone. Like all other comanies. So, how is the MMORPG industry better in 1998 if they are making tons and tons of monre money now. I don't understand you. And obviously the games are better because more people are willing to pay for them. So, I really don't understand your logic. Because if you say that they were better in 1998 because you didn't have to pay/pay as much. Then, that would be crazy talk because companies aren't going to make games free to make people like you happy. So there, I hope that makes you happy.
Kingdom Hearts ---- Best Single Player Game Ever Made.
Here are the MMO games I have played/tried:
Runescape, Silkroad, Xiah, Hero, Rakion, Diablo 2, Gunz, WoW, Maple Story, Dungeon Runners, Flyff, 9Dragons, Astonia III, Last Chaos, GW:Nightfall, Hellgate London, Knight Online, Perfect World, Thang, and sadly Puzzle Pirates.
Just because more people play doesn't mean it's better. That just means they catered to the lowest common denominator and hooked them with addicting and time consuming trivial content.
MMORPG genre blows imo because of sellout companies like blizzard putting in trivial content instead of challenging, just to keep their playerbase (bunch of 5 - 10 year olds) hooked on their game.
No one complained about the money, but now that you mention it.. Look at what blizzard is doing. They sell charactet transfers which are purely automated for $35.
They sell tons of other garbage that is only being sold because of their poor foresight.
They create dead servers and then people have to xfer off and pay ridiculous fees to transfer a few kilobytes from one server to the other (which is automated).
Everything about WOW is to make money, and that is why it turns off the skilled more mature playerbase.
In as much as I am disappointed with many games out there, we must recognise the massive improvement in game design over a short period of 20 years. MMOs has only been a serious product for 20 years and the latest games (say LOTRo) is so much polished than UO or EQ1 back then. It takes time and arrival of talents to achieve huge breakthroughs, lots of trial and error will fail. Irresponsible criticism will not help in anyway. Its easy to find something you do not like, its not easy building a structure that everyone will like every aspect within, its well nigh impossible. Be a responsible critic. Bring in the ideas, not humiliating words like "idiots" "dumd kids".
In as much as I am disappointed with many games out there, we must recognise the massive improvement in game design over a short period of 20 years. MMOs has only been a serious product for 20 years and the latest games (say LOTRo) is so much polished than UO or EQ1 back then. It takes time and arrival of talents to achieve huge breakthroughs, lots of trial and error will fail. Irresponsible criticism will not help in anyway. Its easy to find something you do not like, its not easy building a structure that everyone will like every aspect within, its well nigh impossible. Be a responsible critic. Bring in the ideas, not humiliating words like "idiots" "dumd kids".
I dont know how else to describe WoW's playerbase. Anyone who plays it sees the type of player that it attracts. Try to sit in ironforge for a few minutes without some moron spamming in caps lock some immature comment.
Where is the skill in WoW? It's all about what build you are, and pressing the same button over and over.
Download a bunch of addons like CTRaid, Decursive, etc. and you are set for WoW's pve endgame.
Why should everyone be able to grind the same gear? Shouldn't gear be Challenging to get? I remember a time in MMORPG history when only one person had an item and they and their guild were revered. Now it is like every run of the mill newbie has the same stuff. THe incentive to do PVE is largely gone because of the triviality of their PvP/Arena system and how easy it is to farm gear equivalent to their toughest instances..
But that has skill? hahah, yeah right. People who suck shouldn't have the same gear as skilled players. It's an honor to have good gear, and time-sink players shouldn't be allowed to have that kind of stuff.
Reward participation, that is nice, but they shouldn't be catering to people who play 10 hours a day as compared to people who only play 3-4. It's not fair when a scrub can rake in more honor than a really good pvper just because of huge time investments.
Millions of suscribers.. so what? They have the dumb kiddy crowd, basically. Can't realize the game is a garbage timesink that is addicting but boring. If people didn't play it, they might actually improve their failed game.
Game companies should make a game dependent on skill more than time investments. They shouldnt reward unreasonable amounts of time investment and they shouldnt be designing their games for 10 year olds who can invest 20 hours a day. (and they do invest that much time, it's sad to see blizzard taking advantage of dumb kids who waste their life away on boring content.. at least if it was decent, it might be worth it)
I played EQ a while ago.. I can't say that WoW is better. EQ was a worse time sink, but what you had in EQ was a name at least. With WoW, you're a number, and the endgame is trivial. At least with EQ everyone knows each other. WoW is bs and the community is totally disrespectful to each other.
Their PvP system is a total joke. They removed pvp a long time ago and put in that BG garbage. People like me call a game like WoW blue, because that's how their PvP system is. It's like killing NPCs over and over. There is no risk in WoW pvp. People are rewarded for playing like trash, they get the best gear in the game given enough time investment.
Can you discuss without using personal attacks? Calling people "5-10", "dumb", "idiots" without even knowing those people in person is not a very civilised way of discussion. Maybe in your opinion, that is the way to talk.
I agree with the OP in that the current crop of MMOs didn't bring anything new to the gaming experience. Most of it was polish, which was *needed* badly, but now it's time to explore new methods of game play and even new sorts of way to bring eye candy to the desktop with minimal overhead. All in all, I think AoC and Warhammer are retreading similar ground of the first iteration of MMOs, but bring the polish of the last iteration, which is both good and bad. Good in that it gives old farts like me something to play and the youngin's something to explore in respect to knowing how it felt (without the serious pain of bugs, lag, and other horse hockey we endured) to play the first iteration of MMOs. Bad in that it doesn't open new methods of game play, which even single player games have done so with the use of improved AI's, emergent play (more than one route to solve a problem...), and damn good eye candy for little overhead (TF2 and Crysis are proof that you can get good visuals with a sub-2,000USD machine). I think it's safe to say that maybe 2010 or 2011 that we'll see so-called 'next-gen' game play (which is this-gen of single player games).
-- Brede
I would like to ask you first, do you work in the gaming industry on the development and production side? Or are you just someone who plays computer games for recreation?
And before you attack me for being a WoW fanboi, I am not a fan of the game. I only played for about 1 month and figured it wasn’t for me because there were other MMOs out there that I prefer. Instead I am more or less taking background experience from being a consumer and someone who has worked in the industry for some time, to help defend developers.
The idea, which has been lost to the younger audience, is the game is called an MMORPG for a reason. Which means its a massively multiplayer online ROLE PLAYING GAME. Usually RPG's involve long storylines that gamers can progress as their own pace going further through the story. Before making it to computers, RPGs came in the form of games where you would take on the role of a character or characters that you played to progress through, learn about the story, and have fun. You sort of got into the character(s) mind(s) to understand what they are going through and in a sense felt some compassion or a connection to the character(s). When games such as DnD (the paper, pencil, and dice version) there was a Dungeon master who led the characters through dungeons and the gamers took on the role of their characters and acted as their character. Fast forward to today and you have an online role playing game that allows you to play with many people at once from the privacy of your own home, to progress, level up, role play, and follow along the storyline.
Believe it or not WoW actually was intended on targeting toward a little more mature audience, than 5 year olds, as you so kindly put it. The reason why it takes time to get to the highest level is so that way you can play at your leisure and have a reason to play for a long time. You are not meant to get to the end stage or end game very quickly because you don’t grow attached to your character as much and you loose that connection. MMORPGs are developed to have a widespread appeal thusly there will be aspects of the games the user likes and the user dislikes. You can’t win them all over. And you are correct, the older you get the more responsibilities you have which means you have less time to spend toward leisure. But there are many players, many more than the older audience, who have more time to spend and can progress in levels quicker. And in order to keep them in-game time sinks were needed to give those gamers a reason to need to play, instead of hitting end game and having nothing else to do. Also, there are more and more children using computers than before and are also being introduced to computer games earlier on in their adolescence. So if you look at the market it is wiser to gear toward the younger audience instead of older niche audiences to make more money. The cold hard fact is developer studios need money to run.
So when creating a game they need to make their product appeal to the largest audience possible for their game. But this doesn’t mean the games aren’t made for the older audience either. Age of Conan, an MMO currently in development, is purported to be targeted toward an older audience with more adult content that MMOs such as WoW. Maybe you will find an MMO that fits what you believe to be your target game in AoC.
Getting back to your post, there usually is no one specific skill tree, class, armor/weapon set, which people can get to be the strongest player out there. That is what balancing is called and that is why many users in WoW complain when their skill, class, etc. is getting tweaked to a little lower than before. Granted high end content makes their characters look nice and shiny, but that is what appeals to many gamers. Though it may make you upset that you are unable to obtain higher-end content because you have less time to dedicate toward the game, I believe that is what also keeps many players like you in-game because it give you something to strive for. It is what keeps you paying your subscription fee every month.
Now, you say most gamers don’t have lives. Have you ever stopped to consider that the character they are playing or the game they are playing plays a very important role in their life at this moment in time? Granted that may not seem like much of a life to you, but the game brings millions of players happiness or gives them something to do to bide their time. It doesn’t mean they won’t always have, no lives, as you put it. And it would be best to not attack gamers because you, sir, are one yourself. You spend time playing a game, such as WoW, because you need something fun to do.
Like I said earlier in my post, the game needs to keep you playing for a good time so that way you wont hit end game and then leave (with your money). WoW may not be suited toward you, but it certainly isn’t the worst MMO out there. How many Korean, hack-and-slash, MMOs have you played? If you want to argue about time sinks you should play those. Now I am not trying to defend WoW, nor am I arguing against the game requiring a good portion of time to dedicate toward the game. But you are also not required to log in everyday to play the game. You can choose when to log in and for how long you want to play. Another aspect of the game that may loose you is the fact that people play online games because they can play with and against their friends. Usually a gamer will stay with an online game because they have a good amount of friends, are in a guild, and enjoy doing quests, raids, boss runs, or just good old fashion role play where you talk IC (in character). This is most likely the key aspect as to why a game retains its players. There are numerous other factors, but the friendships formed in-game, whether they see the person in real life or just online, is what keeps them coming back (with their money).
Have you ever thought that maybe MMORPGs weren’t meant for you?
If you prefer FPS games, shooting people, and working in a team more than just using imagination to role play, I suggest Battlefield 2. It may not be able to connect you to hundreds of players at one time. But there is leveling up and not much end game content. I also believe that if there is an MMORPG with no end content, it may not have much of appeal because then there would be no goals to set and thusly lack the stickyness that is needed to keep players in the game. Without end goals there is really no reason to play toward a goal. But that style of game will cater better toward gamers who have a good portion of time to play and also prefer not being bogged down by classes and who also enjoy roleplaying.
Also, if you want a game that is more catered to you how about start threads where you and others talk about styles of gameplay that would best fit you instead of complaining. Constructive criticism works a lot better than just complaining and insulting hundreds of gamers and numerous developers. Plus, it makes you look more immature like the audiences you are talking about that WoW caters for.
~Webby "This MMO needs more dead bird."
I agree with original poster. All mmos that have a subscription of more than like 100,000 are all the same... copies of world of warcraft. I cant wait for the day people realize this. But until then, as long as the main companies keep releasing those types of games the people will keep buying them, goodfor the companies in the short run, bad for everyone in the long run.
HOGG4LIFE
Webby
WoW doesnt really have a storyline, or it might but it doesn't ever get anyone involved. People just put on instant quest scroll and grab as much as they can, look at the objectives and do them. If you call that some kind of storyline, that's ridiculous. Want a storyline? Look at a game like Final Fantasy 7. WoWs storyline isnt even 1/10000th as deep as FF7. They could throw in a bunch of stuff that made no sense and no one would notice, because no one pays attention to the "storyline" in WoW
WoW targeted an older audience? Yeah right. Would an older person be satisfied with doing BGs over and over and over, and a fake pvp system? If it was for older players it wouldn't give unfair advantages to the 5 year olds who play 20 hours a day.
No, it isn't much of a life to do that. If WoW provided something other than a time sink i think those people would be happier with what they get ouf of their time investment. Just because people play it that long does not mean that they enjoy playing it at all. They are addicted to it, just like people smoke themselves until they get lung cancer. It does not mean they enjoy it.
Balancing in WoW is a joke as well. Warlock will dominate almost any pvp bracket in the game. Where is the balance there? I will admit they made their pvp system diablo-2 like with its 10 second fights, but they only did that to cover up the fact that they couldn't come up with a balanced pvp system. So they gave each class a bunch of ways to burn their opponents down.
I played WoW and I beat every instance in the game. My guild was good enough that we could clear every instance in the game with only a 2-3 hour time investment a few days a week. I didn't care about the gear, and only played because I wanted a challenge. The PvE system got boring though because it became trivial very quickly. You clear an instance once and that is all there is to it, has no replay value. The pvp system is the same way for me.
Everquest was a real MMORPG. If you were new to the game, it was generally very difficult to figure out how to get to another location. It had a lot of risk in it, but that is what made it enjoyable. The bosses in EQ weren't really easy like they are in WoW. The pvp system wasnt balanced, but that didn't stop 100 person fights from taking place over REAL pvp objectives like trying to gain control of a zone to kill a certain NPC.
WoW is fake pvp and fake pve basically. horrible game
In as much as I am disappointed with many games out there, we must recognise the massive improvement in game design over a short period of 20 years. MMOs has only been a serious product for 20 years and the latest games (say LOTRo) is so much polished than UO or EQ1 back then. It takes time and arrival of talents to achieve huge breakthroughs, lots of trial and error will fail. Irresponsible criticism will not help in anyway. Its easy to find something you do not like, its not easy building a structure that everyone will like every aspect within, its well nigh impossible. Be a responsible critic. Bring in the ideas, not humiliating words like "idiots" "dumd kids".
I dont know how else to describe WoW's playerbase. Anyone who plays it sees the type of player that it attracts. Try to sit in ironforge for a few minutes without some moron spamming in caps lock some immature comment. Anyone who plays it must see it that way? The player base is not as nice as it once was, and indeed I find other games' player base more pleasant to me, but that is just my view and your view. Two person =/= anyone else.
Where is the skill in WoW? It's all about what build you are, and pressing the same button over and over. Is that true? You press the biggest heal button everytime it is up?
Download a bunch of addons like CTRaid, Decursive, etc. and you are set for WoW's pve endgame. NO comments I do not use addons.
Why should everyone be able to grind the same gear? Shouldn't gear be Challenging to get? I remember a time in MMORPG history when only one person had an item and they and their guild were revered. Now it is like every run of the mill newbie has the same stuff. THe incentive to do PVE is largely gone because of the triviality of their PvP/Arena system and how easy it is to farm gear equivalent to their toughest instances.. Why should gear be limited to only a few? Why not? That was the argument over end game design for years. Some games makes end game gear reasonably available, some makes it part of huge raid rewards, some games allow the best gear through huge crafting grinds. Pick the game that designs the end game the way you like. Those you do not like will cater to other people. No point belittling other gamers because they do not like the same kind of end game design as you do. Stop projecting your views beyond your own self. Your views are yours period. Not everyone share it. Nor is your view any more sacred that anyone else's.
But that has skill? hahah, yeah right. People who suck shouldn't have the same gear as skilled players. It's an honor to have good gear, and time-sink players shouldn't be allowed to have that kind of stuff. Who are the people that sucks? Who are the people that has skills? Who is the one to decide who is who and who deserve what? The game sets the rules and people play by the rules, in the game. That is the same as in life. Why did Mr A score more in an exam than Mr B, that is specified in the rules. Each exam differs, each school or exam body differs. Does that make Mr A suck or Mr B? Come on, stop making big judgment, you are just another Mr nobody like I am. We all are. Just one small person in a world of hundreds of billions of Mr nobody's.
Reward participation, that is nice, but they shouldn't be catering to people who play 10 hours a day as compared to people who only play 3-4. It's not fair when a scrub can rake in more honor than a really good pvper just because of huge time investments. When will you stop humiliating people with colorful words. What makes you think Mr A is a really good pvper and Mr B is a scrub? What makes you think everyone shares the same view?
Millions of suscribers.. so what? They have the dumb kiddy crowd, basically. Can't realize the game is a garbage timesink that is addicting but boring. If people didn't play it, they might actually improve their failed game. Millions are dumb kidding who cannot realise the only one truth you know, is that your conclusion? Ah so you are the only wise mind and millions are dumb. You are very unique indeed.
Game companies should make a game dependent on skill more than time investments. They shouldnt reward unreasonable amounts of time investment and they shouldnt be designing their games for 10 year olds who can invest 20 hours a day. (and they do invest that much time, it's sad to see blizzard taking advantage of dumb kids who waste their life away on boring content.. at least if it was decent, it might be worth it) Now you start lecturing game makers, that they should cater to you. Unfortunately you view is not strong enough to sway many a developer, that seems to suggest not enough people share your views yet. Developers tends to survey the market for majority views, and minor extremist views like yours (who see people as dumb kids wasting their lives) tends not to take on much weights.
I played EQ a while ago.. I can't say that WoW is better. EQ was a worse time sink, but what you had in EQ was a name at least. With WoW, you're a number, and the endgame is trivial. At least with EQ everyone knows each other. WoW is bs and the community is totally disrespectful to each other. That is your view, not all I disagree, but I do not believe that has anything to do with the issue of game design. I wonder how everyone in EQ knows each other, in a world of 200,000 players, knowing 2000 is already a wonder. You must maintain a very large database in your head or in your own notepad. I cannot do that myself. I have too much to remember at work already.
Their PvP system is a total joke. They removed pvp a long time ago and put in that BG garbage. People like me call a game like WoW blue, because that's how their PvP system is. It's like killing NPCs over and over. There is no risk in WoW pvp. People are rewarded for playing like trash, they get the best gear in the game given enough time investment. Once again your view. People like you call the game blue, ... what is the logical extension of that sentence? Other people, maybe lots more, do not call the game blue, and that is why they play. You might belittle them, but I wonder, do you know them? Are you bigot enough to belittle everyone without even caring to know what those people are?
You have a very strong tendency to project every view of yours into a universal status. Everyone must agree with you. Come on. You do not even know everyone but you seems to conclude they must think like you.
Yes yes yes, now that is a very civilised and impartial way of presenting some of the problems of the current day games. As a disclaimer, I have stopped playing for months, b/c of exactly the same feelings above. Games are very polished, like LOTRo, but that is not enough for me.
~Webby "This MMO needs more dead bird."
Yes yes yes, now that is a very civilised and impartial way of presenting some of the problems of the current day games. As a disclaimer, I have stopped playing for months, b/c of exactly the same feelings above. Games are very polished, like LOTRo, but that is not enough for me.
Come try the 10 day trial on DDO...it's where the rest of us like you are hiding LOL!
p.s. The contents of this post are the opinion of the poster only, and such ridiculous pimpage of his favorite game are in no way supported by Turbine, or any of it's subsidiaries
Wrong. Incorrect. l2bsmart
MMORPGs are just getting started. WoW is a great game, just not so good community wise. There are more stereotypes about WoW than racial stereotypes. Please don't base your info on them because you are.
No, skill doesn't play a role in THAT game. Sorry! ONE GAME isn't breaking a full market. Nine million subscribers, I think that means everything is just fine. Upcoming next gen games like AoC or even WAR will re-jumpstart the market like WoW initially did.
Anyone to state a decline in the MMO market should have FACTS and not opinions like you. I am 15 years old, I dont give a rat's ass about my age and neither should you. You wouldn't know a 10 year old from a 40 year old in any game if they used correct grammar.
I HATE when people bring the phrase "have a life" into MMORPGs. I used to think like about three years ago, until I came to DDO and met some cool cats in a guild, many of them being husbands and some fathers that have lives... Just because some people have some free time and wanna have some fun on a computer does not mean they don't have lives. Now someone is going to tell me that WoW is another story, but it isn't.
All in all, you are wrong, so stop.
For the record, i'm not responding to 15 year olds whose brains are not developed.
I'm a WoW insider Webby, a game like that can't keep someone like me addicted. Anyway, my guild didnt require more than.. 10 hours a week. That was enough time to beat their PvE system.
Unfortunately they put in more grinds especially post expansion, where it is not new content, just farming the same old trash.
Also, I found my cigarrete analogy accurate. They are both psychological. I don't see how a cigarrete is physical but whatever, maybe learn more about how your brain responds to MMORPGs if you believe that.
That 15 yr old that just posted is what is wrong with the WoW community. Get rid of the 5-15 year olds and blizzard would make their game more of a challenge and have less hand holding.
That 15 year old that just posted articulated his ideas better than you have in this entire thread...even with the touch of slang. Assigning an age to the maturity of a community is ridiculous, as I've seen plenty of 30 year olds who giggle at naming their character "Butt Cheese", and plenty of 15 year olds named something appropriate who outplay me.
I'm sorry. Perhaps I should leave now. I was obviously not informed that there was an age restriction to opinion. Maybe you should actually become a rational person, not an idiot that believes younger minds are inferior to your peanut you call a brain.
Take out the 5-15 player base and you get what is left of the community. Nothing will change because Blizzard has already stated that they are happy with their current systems and will not change them even though it is possible.
EDIT: Thank you Vincenz
Is the sky falling or is the ground rising up?
Also, you never responded to my questions. It would be nice to get an answer if you intend on this being a debate. Or if it is just a one sided whining extravaganza then I'm out.
~Webby "This MMO needs more dead bird."
