Anybody ever notice that Bliz never states that actually BUYING gold is against TOA and/or EULA ? And before you shout out that it does, or this press release states that, please go back and read all three carefully.
The following is taken from WoW EU Terms of Use:
"C. You agree that you will not
v. buy or sell for "real" money or exchange gold, weapons, armor, or any other virtual items that may be used in World of Warcraft outside the World of Warcraft platform;"
I agree with Blizzard and their statement in it's entirety.
The issue is not solely with the gold buyers though, it is also with blizzard and how much it costs to buy stuff from vendors (such as food, mounts, etc). To some, gaining 5k is an achievement, to most it is a burden. Yes, if you do all of the daily quests every day you will soon be there, but that isn't the point. Before daily quests were ever around in the game, epic mounts were still 1k. Giving 1k to another player in exchange for an awesome piece of gear is one thing, but giving 1k to a vendor, of which that money will not be redistributed back into the economy, is just downright idiotic. Blizzard says that they are not the ones messing up the economy, but the reality is, they are. The structure of their NPC to PC economy is horrible, and very one-sided. Hell, even in EQ 1 vendors could sometimes run out of money, or have that item that you sold to them buried in their inventory somewhere. You could vendor mine sometimes for some pretty decent pieces of gear.
Anyhow, I got slightly off topic. Blizzard needs to restructure the high priced vendor purchased items. I like... maybe even love what they did with Ogri'la gear. Things like that make sense. Money doesn't just disappear from the economy to never be seen again.
IMO i think Blizzard is trying very hard to abolish gold buying, if you think about it, alot of good gear and other stuff must be faction grinded, BG's Arena's too name a few which do not require money and faction stuff which does not cost that much gold, all the bop and boe. Like some other had mention i think most gold is bought for the big expensive mount, so i say make it a faction grind of some sort. I'm sure some one will say PLZ NO MORE faction grind, well no matter what you either grind faction or gold, what's the diff. My 2 cents
At least faction grind there is more than a singular benefit from getting it up there. I agree with your post. I would also like to note that, when there was the indication that a faction grind (wild hammer to be exact) might provide you with a greatly cheaper mount, blizzard REMOVED the faction from the table (I was revered.... so much for that grind). 5k... thats it, pay it or don't, you can be raising money AND raising rep so that you can get it cheaper... that would just be horrible (even though it would probably take just about the same amount of time, but have a larger overall potential benefit).
LOTRO did something about this ages ago first by porting low level resource takers (after they get killed) back to the starting area's and increasing agro range by 500 percent ,even spawning new ones to kill them quick if they venture into high level area's, and with the new update you can report a spammer in seconds. Like the lorebook WoW is just copying the competition they deserve no accolades for this, too little too late.
I left after BC just came in, if repair costs are still as silly as they used to be thats why gold farmers are so successful, when you raid hardcore and thats how you have your fun you really don't feel like farming for 2 hours to make your repair bill but as I stated, that may have changed since my leaving.
At the end of the day what is really sad here is that thousands if not millions of people feel they need to cheat to play the game.
Either MMO games are seriously flawed in that they create almost a need to be power leveled or need large infusions of gold/plat or simply that players are now not interested in the game but simply being powerful in an imaginary world.
Perhaps the real question should be, are MMO's more game or more virtual life? Offline games have their trainers and god modes, but the only person affected is the single player. In an MMO the social nature of it means one player affects everyone else. I really think game devs are going to need to address the fact that MMO's aren't like other games and people don't view them as such either.
As long as we the gamers view MMO's or other online social gaming through the lens of single player games, we will never crack this problem of illegal gold/plat farming, power leveling, etc.
I agree with Blizzard on their article.. But To NOT have so many people buying gold, outside the game, why doesn't Blizzard raise the amount you get per quest. My god.. When you are very young and work hard to get that quest done, you get ALL of what - 20copper? If you're lucky that is.. And - it goes like this for several lvls. Pffftt.. This is the only MMO I have played that the quest rewards on money were so slim in the early stages of your adventuring!
What in the world are you talking about? High end quests give around 10g or more.
It all comes down to laziness. Really, it is not that hard to get the money you need in this game, only the stupid people buy these kind of services. Like Blizz said, it is affecting everyone when it is done, and needs to stop. A statement like this only helps.
I got a nice idea to get rid of those problems of gold farmer.. inflation and gold sellers.. but is to maquivelical to speak it here... so i will just say that is something to insane that will shock the world.. the way I got ridden of those gold farmers.... and such...
Made a few enemies with that one didn't I? No doubt stir up some high-minded "pity" too and some petty name calling... usually does when I jump in to the fray of these types of discussions.
So, here's your chance to see into the screwed up head of a gold-buying MMO destroyer!
I love playing WOW. I despise grinding. Oops! Guess that should knock me right out of the MMORPG scene! Auctioneer and the AH was fun for a bit, then way too much time to manage.
Like many of you, I have a RL. In fact, I love RL- my beautiful wife, amazing 5 year old son, many friends. Participating as a volunteer at a local non-profit. Working as a sysadmin. Pretty normal life, really. And I love it. So, the little time I have set aside to spend playing WOW with a couple of buddies is precious to me. Buying gold simply allows me to enjoy the game more with the little time I have set aside to play. I use it to by consumables. I use it to buy new equipment. I use it to buy mats to skill up faster and I don't hear ANYONE complaining that they're getting 1g47s from me for a stack of copper ore. Consider that this is one reason why you find it so easy to get gold in the game... because I'm buying your mats and equipment you got from grinding and harvesting routes... and I'm buying it with gold I bought from the bot who you're pissed off at because it was camping that ore pop on your route! So, every time you do somersaults for getting 1g47s for that stack of ore, remember, you too are now supporting "spamming, botting and keylogging" through me. Doh! Bottom line- I buy gold because it makes the game more enjoyable for me.
I know, I know, y'all have a mind-boggling array of very legitimate ways that the game is "designed" to be enjoyed and "if you can't enjoy the game the way it's designed than get the $%^ out and stop ruining it for the rest of us, you $#*%#()!!!" Ugh. But go ahead, fire away, I'm so sure you'll say something really original and very convincing and I'll immediately repent of my wicked ways... sure. <yawn>
See, here's the thing though- NO ONE gets to determine for me what enjoyment is for me. No one. If you're frothing at the mouth right now and desire nothing more than PWN me now because of my position here, then I can confidently say that your definitions of enjoyment are not mine! Go pwn your cat or teddy bear!
Again, the fact is that buying gold and using it for skillz, mats, consumables, new equipment greatly increases my enjoyment of the game. As disheartening as it may be, until Blizzard gets a hold on that formula and finds a way to make the game enjoyable at that level without buying gold, I'm gonna be buying gold and supporting all the spamming, botting and keylogging evil-doers out there in the process.
Now, here's a little extra for you. I've been playing WOW since it was released. I've never had a character over lvl 27, though I've had dozens under 27. I don't play that much. I despise grinding.
Side-bar here... pardon me, I digress... Hey Bliz- want to entice me to stop buying gold? Micro-transactions. But then, you made it clear at GDC '08 that you are the almighty MMO creator and micro-transactions will never work <cough>. Writings already on the wall, Bliz... know one needs to make a WOW killer... you're killing yourself with your pride and arrogance... see SOE and EQII for reference.
I think I'll start a new warlock tonight... look for me as "Evilnoob" if it's not taken. Anyone have any gold for sale?
So just because buying Gold enhances your enjoyment of the game that makes it ok? I can understand why it would be nice to buy gold. Personally, I'm a college student with a serious girlfriend who doesn't have all that much time to play myself. But I still enjoy playing the game, grinding, etc. without having to buy gold. I'm only level 23 at the moment and I still love to play. But I digress. The bottom line is that it is Blizzard's game, Blizzard allows each of us to play it and the least we can do is follow their simple rules. I do not expect to convince you of this, or change your mind, since you already made clear that you are hopelessly lost to the dark side. But, anyway, just stating my opinion. And I do have another question for you jasco. If the gold farmers didn't exist and you had to work for everything, would you still play the game? That is something I would like to know.
Another point I would like to make is in response not just to you, but to the others who "just hate grinding" and who despise the fact that the game rewards players who invest more time rather than the most skillful players. RPGs have always been about time and repetition. Anyone who has ever played any old-skool Final Fantasy games knows this. Don't come into an MMORPG (again, I stress the RPG part) expecting that you won't have to grind or that you will fly through the game on your way to 70. In my personal opinion, if you don't enjoy the levelling process then you shouldn't be playing WoW, or any other RPG for that matter. That's not to say that any player doesn't have moments when he gets bored of grinding. I know I do. But pleas people, stop complaining about how the game rewards people. It called an RPG for a reason!! And again, it's a flat-out untrue statement to say that the game doesn't reward skill at all. It isn't at the same level as, say, in a FPS, but then again if you want skill, skill, skill, you should probably be playing an FPS anyway. Especially in the arena system and upper level PVP when many characters are similarly geared, skill is usually the determining factor.
"And I do have another question for you jasco. If the gold farmers didn't exist and you had to work for everything, would you still play the game? That is something I would like to know."
Hey Jedimario, thanks for replying. Contrary to popular thought, even though I buy gold, I still work in the game. If I was not able to buy gold which allows me to make personally acceptable progress, albeit in very small chunks at a time, it is likely that I would set WOW aside, that is, unless Blizzard fixed the problems that I address by buying gold.
The grind doesn't disappear, no matter how much gold one has... so I still tolerate grinding for the sake of the greater enjoyment of the game. Grinding, imho, is a completely unecessary "feature" or "symptom" (depending on which side of the fence you're on) of rpg's that betrays a fundamental flaw in game design. I've played the entirety of the Balder's Gate series and a half-dozen other RPG's series in my many years of game playing. My introduction to mind-numbing grinding was in EQ. WOW isn't nearly as bad, but it's still a prominent symptom of poor game design. Blizzard will never probably outrightly admit it, but the improvements they made in the last major patch directly addressed the difficulty of progressing through the mid-20's and beyond directly due to "not fun" hours and hours of grinding. Good job Blizzard- keep it up!
"Another point I would like to make is in response not just to you, but to the others who "just hate grinding" and who despise the fact that the game rewards players who invest more time rather than the most skillful players. RPGs have always been about time and repetition. "
What? Since when? Since when have RPG's ALWAYS been about time and repetition? What?!? Just because grinding has been a part of nearly every online and major MMORPG doesn't mean it's a feature of Role Playing Games as a genre... it's a symptom of poor game design that reveals lack of creativity and investment into the development of the game.
But pleas people, stop complaining about how the game rewards people. It called an RPG for a reason!!
Ummm... RPG stands for "Role Playing Game"... last I checked anyway. I don't see any mention of "grinding" in the acronym... or any inference of it for that matter. Role... Playing... Game... Maybe it should be a new genre ... a GPG... Grind Playing Game.
Although I addressed grinding here, my original post and the topic of the thread is really about buying gold... so... well... hmmm... wait just a moment! <dramatic pause> I do suppose the two are related after a fashion. Buying gold does trump grinding for gold and drops for the AH.
Very cool- yet another perfectly sound reason for buying gold- thanks Jedimario, you're truly a saint!
I applaud Blizzard for their stance against RMT but WoW is on its downfall already, and its the players fault. The game is so fucking screwed up now its silly. The dude above me a perfect example of everything that is wrong with RMT. All he see is his own enjoyment, not giving a shit in that he screw with the ingame economy and ruin alot of other players enjoyment of said game. When you see a mediocre endgame epic for sale at the ah for some 1.5-2.5k gold and check a little bit later and its SOLD!!! it says alot about that servers population. Nope, what would be the downfall of WoW is its players and the gold sellers. Legit players just cant raise that kinda $$$ for stuff ingame, and therefore almost are forced to buy gold thereby enhancing the circle, or leave the game. I left. Btw jasco20, you and people like you are one of the reasons I left WoW. So you see, you do indeed ruin other peoples enjoyment of a mmo acting like you do.
Personally I hope the gold buyers accounts get permabanned and ip banned, that blizzard, and every other developer block their creditcard never to be used to pay for an ingame account again, their real name, adress and all personal data be put on a blacklist by said company, shared with the other developers of mmo's and so on. Its an utopia but a man can dream cant he
Unfortunately..people like Jasco are too self-centered to see beyond the end of their own noses. They truly don't know what fun is...therefore they pay someone else to do it for them.
People like Jasco will continue to ruin game economies, because they can..and like I said before..selfishness..."its all about me" is their motto....
What mystifies me, is why these people bother to buy the retail box, oh and pay the subscription each month..then they pay someone to powerlevel them...and get them all their toys.
So WHO was playing that game? T'wasn't Jasco..newp...was some goldseller/powerleveler company robot.
So what was the purpose of that whole exercise...well I am not sure. So that people like Jasco can run around in a fantasy world and pretend that they "earned" these things themselves..and brag to other players about it? I suppose.
Personally...I would never risk my account or my credit card to these online game parasites....as Blizz stated..they steal people's identities, game accounts , rip them off and also steal their credit cards that they paid for gold with.
Nice.........
But hey there's a fool born every day...isn't there?
Blizzard is doing their best to stop this problem. Of course, until they get caught they appear as normal subscribers like everyone else. The report spam and 1 hour delay in mail system are ways to discourage and incovenience the gold farmers.
I wish Blizzard could impliment a global ignore like in CoX. Instead of just ignoring a single name, which the farmer deletes probably after a few mins, global ignore works on the entire account. That way doesn't matter how many toons you make, I'm ignoring your account entirely.
Too often I see people say "well the TOS doesn't actually say we can't do this", which is technically incorrect. It uses standard legalese, so it's very wordy. Basically you agree not to sell off their code or use it for any other purpose than to play the game. Gold is code, pure and simple and buy selling it you are violating the TOS.
Unfortunately..people like Jasco are too self-centered to see beyond the end of their own noses. They truly don't know what fun is...therefore they pay someone else to do it for them.
People like Jasco will continue to ruin game economies, because they can..and like I said before..selfishness..."its all about me" is their motto....
There we go! Yeah, now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout! Look everyone, Cend is in the game for YOU! Cend is demonstrating pure selflessness by playing WOW. Cendharia is not in it for his own enjoyment-- that would be much too self-centered and selfish for the enlightened lad. No, not at all! Cendharia is in the game purely to support your enjoyment! How sweet and kind of Cend. Very saintly indeed.
The economy in WOW started out broken. Buying/selling of gold is nothing more than a symptom that points to the disease.
What mystifies me, is why these people bother to buy the retail box, oh and pay the subscription each month..then they pay someone to powerlevel them...and get them all their toys.
So WHO was playing that game? T'wasn't Jasco..newp...was some goldseller/powerleveler company robot.
Not that I give a hoot at all what you think, Cendharia, but my WOW "immorality" is really reserved to buying gold with the primary motivation of ruining the game for you! Seriously though, anyone who gives their account info to ANYONE else is begging to be taken advantage of- they get what they ask for. That's just dangerous. Never done it myself- anyone less saintly out there than Cendharia who has had a character power leveled successfully? C'mon, speak up!
So what was the purpose of that whole exercise...well I am not sure. So that people like Jasco can run around in a fantasy world and pretend that they "earned" these things themselves..and brag to other players about it? I suppose.
Ummm.... World of Warcraft IS a pretend world <snicker, snicker>. A game. It seems evident that one of Blizzards motivations at a business level was to make billions of dollars on a whole heckuva lot of people running around in a fantasy world, pretending to "earn" these things themselves... and brag about it to other players. I do believe you nailed that one, Cend- that is EXACTLY the purpose of the game. And everyone one of us loves shelling out $14.95/mo to Blizzard so we can betend too. Tens of Thousands of us are willing to shell out more dough to make up for broken gameplay mechanics.
Personally...I would never risk my account or my credit card to these online game parasites....as Blizz stated..they steal people's identities, game accounts , rip them off and also steal their credit cards that they paid for gold with.
I couldn't agree with you more. I buy gold from sellers who use paypal... and I use my paypal account- anyone who uses their CC number directly is begging for trouble.
But hey there's a fool born every day...isn't there?
And a saint to match, right Cendharia? I'm sure you entirely compensate for my foolishness. Thanks- much appreciated. And everyone else greatly appreciates your high-minded selflessness too- the game is much better off because you're in it- what would we ever do without you?
Over the years, I've joined several of these discussions to provide a bold perspective on in-game purchases. Tens of thousands of players buy gold. Few stand up and admit it because it's been cloaked in some sort of creepy immorality. So the discussion never gets the meat of the subject and the game developers never improve upon the underlying game mechanics that create a market for extra-curricular gold purchases.
Cendharia, I apologize for the blatant sarcasm and minor vitriol. Just engaging a little bit here to power up the discussion. I do understand where you're coming from. I don't agree with it. But I do understand it.
If I could buy a stack of Elixir of Defense or a stack of woolen cloth from Blizzard for a micro-transaction of 15cents, I'd do it in a heartbeat. There would be no need to buy gold on the RL market.
If blizzard were absolutely serious about shutting down the gold-buying business, they could. All they need do is put a price cap on each item and increase decent level appropriate loot drops. If they were extremely serious about it, shut down the AH too. Issue resolved.
Of course they would never do such things because the cost in gameplay would enrage their paying customers who love getting 1g47s for a stack of copper ore on the AH...
Bottom line- the economic gameplay mechanics in WOW are broken. There is a HUGE demand for gold to make up for the brokenness. Right, wrong, moral, immoral- the demand is there in our pretend world. As long as Blizzard ignores the root problems behind that create that demand, people will profit by creating supply for that demand. And I will continue buying gold.
Unfortunately..people like Jasco are too self-centered to see beyond the end of their own noses. They truly don't know what fun is...therefore they pay someone else to do it for them.
People like Jasco will continue to ruin game economies, because they can..and like I said before..selfishness..."its all about me" is their motto....
There we go! Yeah, now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout! Look everyone, Cend is in the game for YOU! Cend is demonstrating pure selflessness by playing WOW. Cendharia is not in it for his own enjoyment-- that would be much too self-centered and selfish for the enlightened lad. No, not at all! Cendharia is in the game purely to support your enjoyment! How sweet and kind of Cend. Very saintly indeed.
The economy in WOW started out broken. Buying/selling of gold is nothing more than a symptom that points to the disease.
What mystifies me, is why these people bother to buy the retail box, oh and pay the subscription each month..then they pay someone to powerlevel them...and get them all their toys.
So WHO was playing that game? T'wasn't Jasco..newp...was some goldseller/powerleveler company robot.
Not that I give a hoot at all what you think, Cendharia, but my WOW "immorality" is really reserved to buying gold with the primary motivation of ruining the game for you! Seriously though, anyone who gives their account info to ANYONE else is begging to be taken advantage of- they get what they ask for. That's just dangerous. Never done it myself- anyone less saintly out there than Cendharia who has had a character power leveled successfully? C'mon, speak up!
So what was the purpose of that whole exercise...well I am not sure. So that people like Jasco can run around in a fantasy world and pretend that they "earned" these things themselves..and brag to other players about it? I suppose.
Ummm.... World of Warcraft IS a pretend world <snicker, snicker>. A game. It seems evident that one of Blizzards motivations at a business level was to make billions of dollars on a whole heckuva lot of people running around in a fantasy world, pretending to "earn" these things themselves... and brag about it to other players. I do believe you nailed that one, Cend- that is EXACTLY the purpose of the game. And everyone one of us loves shelling out $14.95/mo to Blizzard so we can betend too. Tens of Thousands of us are willing to shell out more dough to make up for broken gameplay mechanics.
Personally...I would never risk my account or my credit card to these online game parasites....as Blizz stated..they steal people's identities, game accounts , rip them off and also steal their credit cards that they paid for gold with.
I couldn't agree with you more. I buy gold from sellers who use paypal... and I use my paypal account- anyone who uses their CC number directly is begging for trouble.
But hey there's a fool born every day...isn't there?
And a saint to match, right Cendharia? I'm sure you entirely compensate for my foolishness. Thanks- much appreciated. And everyone else greatly appreciates your high-minded selflessness too- the game is much better off because you're in it- what would we ever do without you?
Over the years, I've joined several of these discussions to provide a bold perspective on in-game purchases. Tens of thousands of players buy gold. Few stand up and admit it because it's been cloaked in some sort of creepy immorality. So the discussion never gets the meat of the subject and the game developers never improve upon the underlying game mechanics that create a market for extra-curricular gold purchases.
Cendharia, I apologize for the blatant sarcasm and minor vitriol. Just engaging a little bit here to power up the discussion. I do understand where you're coming from. I don't agree with it. But I do understand it.
If I could buy a stack of Elixir of Defense or a stack of woolen cloth from Blizzard for a micro-transaction of 15cents, I'd do it in a heartbeat. There would be no need to buy gold on the RL market.
If blizzard were absolutely serious about shutting down the gold-buying business, they could. All they need do is put a price cap on each item and increase decent level appropriate loot drops. If they were extremely serious about it, shut down the AH too. Issue resolved.
Of course they would never do such things because the cost in gameplay would enrage their paying customers who love getting 1g47s for a stack of copper ore on the AH...
Bottom line- the economic gameplay mechanics in WOW are broken. There is a HUGE demand for gold to make up for the brokenness. Right, wrong, moral, immoral- the demand is there in our pretend world. As long as Blizzard ignores the root problems behind that create that demand, people will profit by creating supply for that demand. And I will continue buying gold.
It's amazing how Cendharia's entire post was transformed into something new by Jasco20.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Blizzard says it, right in plain English (or whatever language you play the game in) right in the User Agreement.
Their game, their rules. They say don't buy gold, if you buy gold, it's their right to remove you from the game. It's also their right to ban gold sellers from the game.
These are facts.
Whether or not it's immoral or ruining the economy is irrelevant.
By participating in gold buying/selling you are cheating, and cheating gives an unfair advantage to those who cheat vs. those who play by the rules.
Is cheating immoral? Well, according to every major religion and most of our laws, yes, cheating is immoral.
In a single player game, the devs put the cheats in. There is nothing wrong with that because you are playing by yourself and if you want to cheat, well, that's your choice.
In an online-multiplayer game, cheating affects a lot more people then just you. It may be indirectly, but it may be very directly.
If I am a miner and trying to fly around Outland and mine so that I can sell the ore and gems to make money, but YOU cheated and bought gold, bought yourself an epic flying mount, you have an unfair advantage to get to the mines first, and in effect steal them from the honest player who is trying to make money the RIGHT way in order to purchase that epic flying mount.
If you use gold you cheated and illegal bought to purchase potions and crafting materials off of the auction house, you just cheated the honest player from having access to those same potions and crafting materials.
Blizzard says it, right in plain English (or whatever language you play the game in) right in the User Agreement.
Their game, their rules. They say don't buy gold, if you buy gold, it's their right to remove you from the game. It's also their right to ban gold sellers from the game.
Couldn't agree with you more. However, I don't see you complaining that you're getting 1g47s from a stack of copper on the AH that allows you to buy your epic mount faster. I do see a lot of people getting very excited about selling a stack of 10 small eggs for 3g. But I digress, Heerobya, you are right I am cheating. But you NEVER cheat, right? Stop selling your ore at those prices then... c'mon! Man-up and sell them at legitimate prices... work for your gold the honest way! Do the right thing, Heerobya. Why are you taking advantage of the AH that way and the inflated prices that you cash in on? As such an honest player, no doubt you'd sell a stack of copper ore for 20s inspite of going prices of 1g47s, right?
These are facts.
Whether or not it's immoral or ruining the economy is irrelevant.
Blizzard doesn't think it's irrelevant.
By participating in gold buying/selling you are cheating, and cheating gives an unfair advantage to those who cheat vs. those who play by the rules.
Is cheating immoral? Well, according to every major religion and most of our laws, yes, cheating is immoral.
My favorite class is Rogue. What can I say... what should I say? Blizzard makes a character type that allows me to steal in a pretend world that has no RL consequences. How cool is that? I like cheating and stealing this way. It's fun. It's called ROLE-PLAYING. You know, as in an "RPG?" Thank you Blizzard- you guys rock!
In a single player game, the devs put the cheats in. There is nothing wrong with that because you are playing by yourself and if you want to cheat, well, that's your choice.
In an online-multiplayer game, cheating affects a lot more people then just you. It may be indirectly, but it may be very directly.
Your beef might be more effectual directed at the source. A broken economic system to start with. Blizzard should definitely fix that. It seems to be having a big impact on a lot of people...
If I am a miner and trying to fly around Outland and mine so that I can sell the ore and gems to make money, but YOU cheated and bought gold, bought yourself an epic flying mount, you have an unfair advantage to get to the mines first, and in effect steal them from the honest player who is trying to make money the RIGHT way in order to purchase that epic flying mount.
And your "right way" is selling your ore and gems for how much? Are you complaining about getting that much for your ore and gems, Heerobya? Because I'm the one who's buying them at your inflated prices. Blizzard created the demand for more gold with a broken economic game mechanic at the outset. The AH creates an economic simulation that builds up from the foundation of a broken supply/demand model. Am I cheating? You bet your arse I am, to make up for a broken mechanic that makes gameplay in an amazing pretend universe less fun than it should be. I buy gold, I have more fun and enjoyment. Works for me. You should buy some gold too. You'll get your epic mount faster that way. Oh, by the way, I would never spend my precious time running mining routes... I just buy the ore from you on the AH. Thanks :-)
If you use gold you cheated and illegal bought to purchase potions and crafting materials off of the auction house, you just cheated the honest player from having access to those same potions and crafting materials.
Those poor "honest" players should get smart and dishonest like me and buy some gold. They'll enjoy the game more and won't stress over not having access to the potions and crafting materials. Or, if they're not willing to be a vile, dishonest, good for nothing thief like me, they should just go out and grind for gold and mats. Grinding is not broken- works every time. It's a very strong feature of WOW. Sounds like fodder for a bumper sticker... "Grinding Works" or... "Just Grind"
If the potions and crafting materials, equipment etc. were dropped in more abundance there would be no need for buying them from the AH, gathering an abundance of them them in process of playing would eleviate the supply problem that drives the AH prices up. Combine that supply problem with available purchasable gold... the value of a gold piece drops, cost of items rise... inflation. Amazing simulation. But this is a dynamic game simulation, not dynamic RL. Blizzard makes the rules, writes the code that governs the economic simulation... it's not a mystery. Their code is broken. Their gameplay mechanic is broken. Thus there is a demand for gold purchasable in RL. Just a side note here. It is not illegal to buy gold. It's against Blizzards rules. It is not illegal. There is a big difference.
On another note, I am the predominant supplier of elixir of defense, ogre's strength, breathing potions, and health pots on my server. Me. I buy the mats with gold I bought outside of game. I make the potions and sell them at a profit and many times at a loss just as a treat to surprise folks. I rather like the idea that some players feel really good about getting a killer deal on a stack of potions. Makes me feel good. Now that's fun! Sort of Oprah'ish or Robin Hoodish of me, isn't it?
Not here to flame or go against anyone, just stating an opinion.
I am completely against the exploitation that goes on between RL market sellers and their buyers (gamers). I'm not sure I'm against the whole buying gold from a legit seller (and by legit I mean a seller that won't steal your CC information).
I think it's really cool that alot of people like to spend lots of time earning every bit of gold to get that epic mount and then be satisfied and proud about it and even brag about it. They have that right.
I also understand how there are alot of people that work so hard and can't put in the hours to get that same epic mount. TIme is money to alot of people out in the work force, and when they play their game, they much rather skip the tedium as it saves the time to do what they need to (work, spend time with family or whatever else they need to do). It makes sense that if gold is available for purchase, these types of people will buy it, because to them, it's saving time and tedium and they have other life obligations that stop them from spending many hours farming the gold themselves. Their time is limited and when they play they want pure enjoyment. (some people enjoy farmin and wil do it anyway even if it takes forever to get that mount).
Maybe the only thing that makes WoW the game for them is that they can buy gold and save time.
There's just alot of people out there a game needs to cater to and i think those who particpate in RL market or who want to be part of the market on a business perspective are a type of gamer that as time goes on will be catered to specifically. EQ 2 does that with their in-game market servers where players can buy and sell in game items.
I think Blizzard should look into something similar to cater for that player base that may be the driving force of those 3rd party sellers. If they take the market in-game it'll hurt alot of 3rd party sellers and maybe rid of them completely.
But there's still going to be issues. Whether there's a 3rd party or an in-game market there will be farmers and groups ready to exploit resources to gain profits in these markets. Also I'm not sure powerleveling in an ingame market is possible so there will still be 3rd parties doing this and Blizzard will still have to handle all the hacks and complaints that are going on now.
It's a tough situation guys, it's like this with every MMO. The main issue is exploitation, security and economy. I'm not sure there will be a difference if Blizzard ups their gold drops as there will always be something of value that could be sold from a 3rd party vendor. Even if everything is bind-on pickup they will find some service to offer to cater to some sort of demand.
So maybe we should think of what would lessen the power of these 3rd party vendors. If all they can offer is accoutns and powerleveling it's better than the current alternative.
I think Blizzard should maybe re-balance their gold rewards and bring the market in-game so at least there's a greater sense of purchasing safety. And if in-game markets are offensive to too many then open up a few servers that have in-game markets to cater to those who desire that (which i'm sure is a huge segment of the WoW population; you can't deny it with all the sales these 3rd parties make). That'll lessen the power and annoyance of 3rd party vendors, but sadly it won't rid of them. I don't think anything can unless real laws are passed for this.
What do you guys think? I use alot of opinionated statements using I think, maybe we can try, things to that effect, let's try not to flame each other and make personal comments on someone's statement, even if that person themself belittled someone else. I think ignoring is the best way to weed out those little annoyances, if that person doesn't feel heard they'll flame by themselves and disappear. Replying is just fuel to their fire, even if you think you've shafted them, rebuttles are endless.
On one hand, WoW is so freaking easy that I don't see why anyone would need to buy gold. The best gear is obtained through grinding honor or raiding. Virtually no money required.
Which leads to my other point, maybe if Blizzard made their game more dynamic and less about mindless grinding and raiding, people would have NO reason to buy gold.
Power leveling on the other hand... It's already really easy to level up in WoW, so there's not much to do to counteract that except let people be level 70 right when they open their account. Some people are just too lazy.
All I can say is that I hope they catch you and ban you.
Maybe then you'll look outside the box and realize that people like you are the reason for the inflation we see in the markets.
It's a circle.
1. Things become overpriced due to player greed. That's fine, only an idiot would buy something that is way way way overpriced.
2. People then buy gold to buy these overpriced goods.
3. People then realize they can actually sell things at inflated prices. So they keep bumping up the price.
4. Repeat step 1.
So then you have way too much gold in the economy, so Blizzard makes things like Epic flying mounts and training cost more gold then a casual gamer will ever see. So the gold buying cheater thus directly influences the inflation of the price of goods in the game economy.
Can you not see this? You admit to cheating because you have more fun. I'm glad you are having fun, but having fun at the expense of others is not a good thing.
If you cannot see this, then you are beyond hope and I pray that your account is banned.
Do you think in-game markets would alleviate the inflation (well i'm not sure if it's too late already for existing servers) let's say if the in-game markets are only in certain servers? I mean the inflation in those servers will rise, but that's a given and that's what players who would join those servers would understand.
Those servers would entice players like Jasco, because they'd be legit, ban-free and it would give the typical user a shot at making some money themselves with the integrated market system governed by Blizzard. Maybe that will sway alot of people to these servers and forget about 3rd party vendors all-together. I'm sure there will still be some market activity for non-in-game market servers but the demand would lower drastically because I'm sure most buyers don't want the risk of getting caught and banned for it and would rather move server.
Would that entice you Jasco?
And heerobya do you think that would be a step in the right direction or a step backwards?
Love to hear your thoughts. Lol not that any of this stuff would get implemented, I"m just trying to see why Blizzard wouldn't want to do this. I only see positive influence.
Do you think in-game markets would alleviate the inflation (well i'm not sure if it's too late already for existing servers) let's say if the in-game markets are only in certain servers? I mean the inflation in those servers will rise, but that's a given and that's what players who would join those servers would understand. Those servers would entice players like Jasco, because they'd be legit, ban-free and it would give the typical user a shot at making some money themselves with the integrated market system governed by Blizzard. Maybe that will sway alot of people to these servers and forget about 3rd party vendors all-together. I'm sure there will still be some market activity for non-in-game market servers but the demand would lower drastically because I'm sure most buyers don't want the risk of getting caught and banned for it and would rather move server. Would that entice you Jasco? And heerobya do you think that would be a step in the right direction or a step backwards? Love to hear your thoughts. Lol not that any of this stuff would get implemented, I"m just trying to see why Blizzard wouldn't want to do this. I only see positive influence.
I know EQ2 has servers with RMT (real money transactions) so you'd have to ask someone who plays on those servers.
I just think it's an unfair advantage. Like most things in Real life, the person with more money has the advantage. Why extend that harsh reality to the gaming world? We all pay our monthly fee, we should have the same access to goods.
I've always thought that Blizzard needs to put some controls on the market. Think of it this way, how much do goods sell for if you sell them to a vendor? Not even CLOSE to what people sell stuff on the Auction House for.
So they already have a "value" attached to every item that can be traded / sold. Why not use that value as a hard CAP on the auction house (and even in player to player trades and mail)
They could easily incorporate some supply and demand features that would bump the price cap up a bit if the item is rare, etc.
I just think it's an unfair advantage. Like most things in Real life, the person with more money has the advantage. Why extend that harsh reality to the gaming world?
The future of MMOs is going to sting for you, I imagine. Most games are going to be Free to play with microtransactions, it's a very successful business model and more and more companies are trying it out every day. Heck, even EA is doing it now.
But you're right, you pay a monthly fee so you shouldn't have to pay more to keep up. Good thing Blizzard is not just saying "Oh well, it's their money." then.
But seriously, nobody HAS to buy gold in WoW. If people actually have trouble making money in WoW, they should work on improving their methods, not complaining about inflation. Is inflation bad in WoW? Heck yeah, last time I played large prismatics were like 30g each. But there's nothing in the game except maybe Black Temple gems that are not obtainable by even casual players.
And aren't they letting you buy BT gems with heroic badges soon?
Comments
The following is taken from WoW EU Terms of Use:
"C. You agree that you will not
v. buy or sell for "real" money or exchange gold, weapons, armor, or any other virtual items that may be used in World of Warcraft outside the World of Warcraft platform;"
I agree with Blizzard and their statement in it's entirety.
The issue is not solely with the gold buyers though, it is also with blizzard and how much it costs to buy stuff from vendors (such as food, mounts, etc). To some, gaining 5k is an achievement, to most it is a burden. Yes, if you do all of the daily quests every day you will soon be there, but that isn't the point. Before daily quests were ever around in the game, epic mounts were still 1k. Giving 1k to another player in exchange for an awesome piece of gear is one thing, but giving 1k to a vendor, of which that money will not be redistributed back into the economy, is just downright idiotic. Blizzard says that they are not the ones messing up the economy, but the reality is, they are. The structure of their NPC to PC economy is horrible, and very one-sided. Hell, even in EQ 1 vendors could sometimes run out of money, or have that item that you sold to them buried in their inventory somewhere. You could vendor mine sometimes for some pretty decent pieces of gear.
Anyhow, I got slightly off topic. Blizzard needs to restructure the high priced vendor purchased items. I like... maybe even love what they did with Ogri'la gear. Things like that make sense. Money doesn't just disappear from the economy to never be seen again.
At least faction grind there is more than a singular benefit from getting it up there. I agree with your post. I would also like to note that, when there was the indication that a faction grind (wild hammer to be exact) might provide you with a greatly cheaper mount, blizzard REMOVED the faction from the table (I was revered.... so much for that grind). 5k... thats it, pay it or don't, you can be raising money AND raising rep so that you can get it cheaper... that would just be horrible (even though it would probably take just about the same amount of time, but have a larger overall potential benefit).
LOTRO did something about this ages ago first by porting low level resource takers (after they get killed) back to the starting area's and increasing agro range by 500 percent ,even spawning new ones to kill them quick if they venture into high level area's, and with the new update you can report a spammer in seconds. Like the lorebook WoW is just copying the competition they deserve no accolades for this, too little too late.
I left after BC just came in, if repair costs are still as silly as they used to be thats why gold farmers are so successful, when you raid hardcore and thats how you have your fun you really don't feel like farming for 2 hours to make your repair bill but as I stated, that may have changed since my leaving.
At the end of the day what is really sad here is that thousands if not millions of people feel they need to cheat to play the game.
Either MMO games are seriously flawed in that they create almost a need to be power leveled or need large infusions of gold/plat or simply that players are now not interested in the game but simply being powerful in an imaginary world.
Perhaps the real question should be, are MMO's more game or more virtual life? Offline games have their trainers and god modes, but the only person affected is the single player. In an MMO the social nature of it means one player affects everyone else. I really think game devs are going to need to address the fact that MMO's aren't like other games and people don't view them as such either.
As long as we the gamers view MMO's or other online social gaming through the lens of single player games, we will never crack this problem of illegal gold/plat farming, power leveling, etc.
What in the world are you talking about? High end quests give around 10g or more.
It all comes down to laziness. Really, it is not that hard to get the money you need in this game, only the stupid people buy these kind of services. Like Blizz said, it is affecting everyone when it is done, and needs to stop. A statement like this only helps.
I got a nice idea to get rid of those problems of gold farmer.. inflation and gold sellers.. but is to maquivelical to speak it here... so i will just say that is something to insane that will shock the world.. the way I got ridden of those gold farmers.... and such...
I buy gold. Regularly.
Made a few enemies with that one didn't I? No doubt stir up some high-minded "pity" too and some petty name calling... usually does when I jump in to the fray of these types of discussions.
So, here's your chance to see into the screwed up head of a gold-buying MMO destroyer!
I love playing WOW. I despise grinding. Oops! Guess that should knock me right out of the MMORPG scene! Auctioneer and the AH was fun for a bit, then way too much time to manage.
Like many of you, I have a RL. In fact, I love RL- my beautiful wife, amazing 5 year old son, many friends. Participating as a volunteer at a local non-profit. Working as a sysadmin. Pretty normal life, really. And I love it. So, the little time I have set aside to spend playing WOW with a couple of buddies is precious to me. Buying gold simply allows me to enjoy the game more with the little time I have set aside to play. I use it to by consumables. I use it to buy new equipment. I use it to buy mats to skill up faster and I don't hear ANYONE complaining that they're getting 1g47s from me for a stack of copper ore. Consider that this is one reason why you find it so easy to get gold in the game... because I'm buying your mats and equipment you got from grinding and harvesting routes... and I'm buying it with gold I bought from the bot who you're pissed off at because it was camping that ore pop on your route! So, every time you do somersaults for getting 1g47s for that stack of ore, remember, you too are now supporting "spamming, botting and keylogging" through me.
Doh! Bottom line- I buy gold because it makes the game more enjoyable for me.
I know, I know, y'all have a mind-boggling array of very legitimate ways that the game is "designed" to be enjoyed and "if you can't enjoy the game the way it's designed than get the $%^ out and stop ruining it for the rest of us, you $#*%#()!!!" Ugh. But go ahead, fire away, I'm so sure you'll say something really original and very convincing and I'll immediately repent of my wicked ways... sure.
<yawn>
See, here's the thing though- NO ONE gets to determine for me what enjoyment is for me. No one. If you're frothing at the mouth right now and desire nothing more than PWN me now because of my position here, then I can confidently say that your definitions of enjoyment are not mine! Go pwn your cat or teddy bear!
Again, the fact is that buying gold and using it for skillz, mats, consumables, new equipment greatly increases my enjoyment of the game. As disheartening as it may be, until Blizzard gets a hold on that formula and finds a way to make the game enjoyable at that level without buying gold, I'm gonna be buying gold and supporting all the spamming, botting and keylogging evil-doers out there in the process.
Now, here's a little extra for you. I've been playing WOW since it was released. I've never had a character over lvl 27, though I've had dozens under 27. I don't play that much. I despise grinding.
Side-bar here... pardon me, I digress... Hey Bliz- want to entice me to stop buying gold? Micro-transactions. But then, you made it clear at GDC '08 that you are the almighty MMO creator and micro-transactions will never work <cough>. Writings already on the wall, Bliz... know one needs to make a WOW killer... you're killing yourself with your pride and arrogance... see SOE and EQII for reference.
I think I'll start a new warlock tonight... look for me as "Evilnoob" if it's not taken. Anyone have any gold for sale?
Ciao!
So just because buying Gold enhances your enjoyment of the game that makes it ok? I can understand why it would be nice to buy gold. Personally, I'm a college student with a serious girlfriend who doesn't have all that much time to play myself. But I still enjoy playing the game, grinding, etc. without having to buy gold. I'm only level 23 at the moment and I still love to play. But I digress. The bottom line is that it is Blizzard's game, Blizzard allows each of us to play it and the least we can do is follow their simple rules. I do not expect to convince you of this, or change your mind, since you already made clear that you are hopelessly lost to the dark side. But, anyway, just stating my opinion. And I do have another question for you jasco. If the gold farmers didn't exist and you had to work for everything, would you still play the game? That is something I would like to know.
Another point I would like to make is in response not just to you, but to the others who "just hate grinding" and who despise the fact that the game rewards players who invest more time rather than the most skillful players. RPGs have always been about time and repetition. Anyone who has ever played any old-skool Final Fantasy games knows this. Don't come into an MMORPG (again, I stress the RPG part) expecting that you won't have to grind or that you will fly through the game on your way to 70. In my personal opinion, if you don't enjoy the levelling process then you shouldn't be playing WoW, or any other RPG for that matter. That's not to say that any player doesn't have moments when he gets bored of grinding. I know I do. But pleas people, stop complaining about how the game rewards people. It called an RPG for a reason!! And again, it's a flat-out untrue statement to say that the game doesn't reward skill at all. It isn't at the same level as, say, in a FPS, but then again if you want skill, skill, skill, you should probably be playing an FPS anyway. Especially in the arena system and upper level PVP when many characters are similarly geared, skill is usually the determining factor.
Originally posted by jedimario
"And I do have another question for you jasco. If the gold farmers didn't exist and you had to work for everything, would you still play the game? That is something I would like to know."
"Another point I would like to make is in response not just to you, but to the others who "just hate grinding" and who despise the fact that the game rewards players who invest more time rather than the most skillful players. RPGs have always been about time and repetition. "
But pleas people, stop complaining about how the game rewards people. It called an RPG for a reason!!
Although I addressed grinding here, my original post and the topic of the thread is really about buying gold... so... well... hmmm... wait just a moment! <dramatic pause> I do suppose the two are related after a fashion. Buying gold does trump grinding for gold and drops for the AH.
Very cool- yet another perfectly sound reason for buying gold- thanks Jedimario, you're truly a saint!
I applaud Blizzard for their stance against RMT but WoW is on its downfall already, and its the players fault. The game is so fucking screwed up now its silly. The dude above me a perfect example of everything that is wrong with RMT. All he see is his own enjoyment, not giving a shit in that he screw with the ingame economy and ruin alot of other players enjoyment of said game. When you see a mediocre endgame epic for sale at the ah for some 1.5-2.5k gold and check a little bit later and its SOLD!!! it says alot about that servers population. Nope, what would be the downfall of WoW is its players and the gold sellers. Legit players just cant raise that kinda $$$ for stuff ingame, and therefore almost are forced to buy gold thereby enhancing the circle, or leave the game. I left. Btw jasco20, you and people like you are one of the reasons I left WoW. So you see, you do indeed ruin other peoples enjoyment of a mmo acting like you do.
Personally I hope the gold buyers accounts get permabanned and ip banned, that blizzard, and every other developer block their creditcard never to be used to pay for an ingame account again, their real name, adress and all personal data be put on a blacklist by said company, shared with the other developers of mmo's and so on. Its an utopia but a man can dream cant he
...small edits for typos and stuff
---
Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
Unfortunately..people like Jasco are too self-centered to see beyond the end of their own noses. They truly don't know what fun is...therefore they pay someone else to do it for them.
People like Jasco will continue to ruin game economies, because they can..and like I said before..selfishness..."its all about me" is their motto....
What mystifies me, is why these people bother to buy the retail box, oh and pay the subscription each month..then they pay someone to powerlevel them...and get them all their toys.
So WHO was playing that game? T'wasn't Jasco..newp...was some goldseller/powerleveler company robot.
So what was the purpose of that whole exercise...well I am not sure. So that people like Jasco can run around in a fantasy world and pretend that they "earned" these things themselves..and brag to other players about it? I suppose.
Personally...I would never risk my account or my credit card to these online game parasites....as Blizz stated..they steal people's identities, game accounts , rip them off and also steal their credit cards that they paid for gold with.
Nice.........
But hey there's a fool born every day...isn't there?
Cend
Blizzard is doing their best to stop this problem. Of course, until they get caught they appear as normal subscribers like everyone else. The report spam and 1 hour delay in mail system are ways to discourage and incovenience the gold farmers.
I wish Blizzard could impliment a global ignore like in CoX. Instead of just ignoring a single name, which the farmer deletes probably after a few mins, global ignore works on the entire account. That way doesn't matter how many toons you make, I'm ignoring your account entirely.
Too often I see people say "well the TOS doesn't actually say we can't do this", which is technically incorrect. It uses standard legalese, so it's very wordy. Basically you agree not to sell off their code or use it for any other purpose than to play the game. Gold is code, pure and simple and buy selling it you are violating the TOS.
I'm with Jasco20 on this one.
Buying gold does not wreck the economy. If it did, WoW would not have 10 million subscribers.
If you don't want to lose all the stuff from the level 60 character you bought, change the account password.
The economy in WOW started out broken. Buying/selling of gold is nothing more than a symptom that points to the disease.
Not that I give a hoot at all what you think, Cendharia, but my WOW "immorality" is really reserved to buying gold with the primary motivation of ruining the game for you!
Ummm.... World of Warcraft IS a pretend world <snicker, snicker>. A game. It seems evident that one of Blizzards motivations at a business level was to make billions of dollars on a whole heckuva lot of people running around in a fantasy world, pretending to "earn" these things themselves... and brag about it to other players. I do believe you nailed that one, Cend- that is EXACTLY the purpose of the game. And everyone one of us loves shelling out $14.95/mo to Blizzard so we can betend too. Tens of Thousands of us are willing to shell out more dough to make up for broken gameplay mechanics.
I couldn't agree with you more. I buy gold from sellers who use paypal... and I use my paypal account- anyone who uses their CC number directly is begging for trouble.
And a saint to match, right Cendharia? I'm sure you entirely compensate for my foolishness. Thanks- much appreciated. And everyone else greatly appreciates your high-minded selflessness too- the game is much better off because you're in it- what would we ever do without you?
Over the years, I've joined several of these discussions to provide a bold perspective on in-game purchases. Tens of thousands of players buy gold. Few stand up and admit it because it's been cloaked in some sort of creepy immorality
Cendharia, I apologize for the blatant sarcasm and minor vitriol. Just engaging a little bit here to power up the discussion. I do understand where you're coming from. I don't agree with it. But I do understand it.
If I could buy a stack of Elixir of Defense or a stack of woolen cloth from Blizzard for a micro-transaction of 15cents, I'd do it in a heartbeat. There would be no need to buy gold on the RL market.
If blizzard were absolutely serious about shutting down the gold-buying business, they could. All they need do is put a price cap on each item and increase decent level appropriate loot drops. If they were extremely serious about it, shut down the AH too. Issue resolved.
Of course they would never do such things because the cost in gameplay would enrage their paying customers who love getting 1g47s for a stack of copper ore on the AH...
Bottom line- the economic gameplay mechanics in WOW are broken. There is a HUGE demand for gold to make up for the brokenness. Right, wrong, moral, immoral- the demand is there in our pretend world. As long as Blizzard ignores the root problems behind that create that demand, people will profit by creating supply for that demand. And I will continue buying gold.
The economy in WOW started out broken. Buying/selling of gold is nothing more than a symptom that points to the disease.
Not that I give a hoot at all what you think, Cendharia, but my WOW "immorality" is really reserved to buying gold with the primary motivation of ruining the game for you!
Ummm.... World of Warcraft IS a pretend world <snicker, snicker>. A game. It seems evident that one of Blizzards motivations at a business level was to make billions of dollars on a whole heckuva lot of people running around in a fantasy world, pretending to "earn" these things themselves... and brag about it to other players. I do believe you nailed that one, Cend- that is EXACTLY the purpose of the game. And everyone one of us loves shelling out $14.95/mo to Blizzard so we can betend too. Tens of Thousands of us are willing to shell out more dough to make up for broken gameplay mechanics.
I couldn't agree with you more. I buy gold from sellers who use paypal... and I use my paypal account- anyone who uses their CC number directly is begging for trouble.
And a saint to match, right Cendharia? I'm sure you entirely compensate for my foolishness. Thanks- much appreciated. And everyone else greatly appreciates your high-minded selflessness too- the game is much better off because you're in it- what would we ever do without you?
Over the years, I've joined several of these discussions to provide a bold perspective on in-game purchases. Tens of thousands of players buy gold. Few stand up and admit it because it's been cloaked in some sort of creepy immorality
Cendharia, I apologize for the blatant sarcasm and minor vitriol. Just engaging a little bit here to power up the discussion. I do understand where you're coming from. I don't agree with it. But I do understand it.
If I could buy a stack of Elixir of Defense or a stack of woolen cloth from Blizzard for a micro-transaction of 15cents, I'd do it in a heartbeat. There would be no need to buy gold on the RL market.
If blizzard were absolutely serious about shutting down the gold-buying business, they could. All they need do is put a price cap on each item and increase decent level appropriate loot drops. If they were extremely serious about it, shut down the AH too. Issue resolved.
Of course they would never do such things because the cost in gameplay would enrage their paying customers who love getting 1g47s for a stack of copper ore on the AH...
Bottom line- the economic gameplay mechanics in WOW are broken. There is a HUGE demand for gold to make up for the brokenness. Right, wrong, moral, immoral- the demand is there in our pretend world. As long as Blizzard ignores the root problems behind that create that demand, people will profit by creating supply for that demand. And I will continue buying gold.
It's amazing how Cendharia's entire post was transformed into something new by Jasco20.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
It's cheating. Plain and simple.
Blizzard says it, right in plain English (or whatever language you play the game in) right in the User Agreement.
Their game, their rules. They say don't buy gold, if you buy gold, it's their right to remove you from the game. It's also their right to ban gold sellers from the game.
These are facts.
Whether or not it's immoral or ruining the economy is irrelevant.
By participating in gold buying/selling you are cheating, and cheating gives an unfair advantage to those who cheat vs. those who play by the rules.
Is cheating immoral? Well, according to every major religion and most of our laws, yes, cheating is immoral.
In a single player game, the devs put the cheats in. There is nothing wrong with that because you are playing by yourself and if you want to cheat, well, that's your choice.
In an online-multiplayer game, cheating affects a lot more people then just you. It may be indirectly, but it may be very directly.
If I am a miner and trying to fly around Outland and mine so that I can sell the ore and gems to make money, but YOU cheated and bought gold, bought yourself an epic flying mount, you have an unfair advantage to get to the mines first, and in effect steal them from the honest player who is trying to make money the RIGHT way in order to purchase that epic flying mount.
If you use gold you cheated and illegal bought to purchase potions and crafting materials off of the auction house, you just cheated the honest player from having access to those same potions and crafting materials.
I could go on and on...
Originally posted by heerobya
Couldn't agree with you more. However, I don't see you complaining that you're getting 1g47s from a stack of copper on the AH that allows you to buy your epic mount faster. I do see a lot of people getting very excited about selling a stack of 10 small eggs for 3g. But I digress, Heerobya, you are right I am cheating. But you NEVER cheat, right? Stop selling your ore at those prices then... c'mon! Man-up and sell them at legitimate prices... work for your gold the honest way! Do the right thing, Heerobya. Why are you taking advantage of the AH that way and the inflated prices that you cash in on? As such an honest player, no doubt you'd sell a stack of copper ore for 20s inspite of going prices of 1g47s, right?Blizzard doesn't think it's irrelevant.
My favorite class is Rogue. What can I say... what should I say? Blizzard makes a character type that allows me to steal in a pretend world that has no RL consequences. How cool is that? I like cheating and stealing this way. It's fun. It's called ROLE-PLAYING. You know, as in an "RPG?" Thank you Blizzard- you guys rock!
Your beef might be more effectual directed at the source. A broken economic system to start with. Blizzard should definitely fix that. It seems to be having a big impact on a lot of people...
And your "right way" is selling your ore and gems for how much? Are you complaining about getting that much for your ore and gems, Heerobya? Because I'm the one who's buying them at your inflated prices. Blizzard created the demand for more gold with a broken economic game mechanic at the outset. The AH creates an economic simulation that builds up from the foundation of a broken supply/demand model. Am I cheating? You bet your arse I am, to make up for a broken mechanic that makes gameplay in an amazing pretend universe less fun than it should be. I buy gold, I have more fun and enjoyment. Works for me. You should buy some gold too. You'll get your epic mount faster that way. Oh, by the way, I would never spend my precious time running mining routes... I just buy the ore from you on the AH. Thanks :-)
Those poor "honest" players should get smart and dishonest like me and buy some gold. They'll enjoy the game more and won't stress over not having access to the potions and crafting materials. Or, if they're not willing to be a vile, dishonest, good for nothing thief like me, they should just go out and grind for gold and mats. Grinding is not broken- works every time. It's a very strong feature of WOW. Sounds like fodder for a bumper sticker... "Grinding Works" or... "Just Grind"
If the potions and crafting materials, equipment etc. were dropped in more abundance there would be no need for buying them from the AH, gathering an abundance of them them in process of playing would eleviate the supply problem that drives the AH prices up. Combine that supply problem with available purchasable gold... the value of a gold piece drops, cost of items rise... inflation. Amazing simulation. But this is a dynamic game simulation, not dynamic RL. Blizzard makes the rules, writes the code that governs the economic simulation... it's not a mystery. Their code is broken. Their gameplay mechanic is broken. Thus there is a demand for gold purchasable in RL. Just a side note here. It is not illegal to buy gold. It's against Blizzards rules. It is not illegal. There is a big difference.
On another note, I am the predominant supplier of elixir of defense, ogre's strength, breathing potions, and health pots on my server. Me. I buy the mats with gold I bought outside of game. I make the potions and sell them at a profit and many times at a loss just as a treat to surprise folks. I rather like the idea that some players feel really good about getting a killer deal on a stack of potions. Makes me feel good. Now that's fun! Sort of Oprah'ish or Robin Hoodish of me, isn't it?
Hey guys,
Not here to flame or go against anyone, just stating an opinion.
I am completely against the exploitation that goes on between RL market sellers and their buyers (gamers). I'm not sure I'm against the whole buying gold from a legit seller (and by legit I mean a seller that won't steal your CC information).
I think it's really cool that alot of people like to spend lots of time earning every bit of gold to get that epic mount and then be satisfied and proud about it and even brag about it. They have that right.
I also understand how there are alot of people that work so hard and can't put in the hours to get that same epic mount. TIme is money to alot of people out in the work force, and when they play their game, they much rather skip the tedium as it saves the time to do what they need to (work, spend time with family or whatever else they need to do). It makes sense that if gold is available for purchase, these types of people will buy it, because to them, it's saving time and tedium and they have other life obligations that stop them from spending many hours farming the gold themselves. Their time is limited and when they play they want pure enjoyment. (some people enjoy farmin and wil do it anyway even if it takes forever to get that mount).
Maybe the only thing that makes WoW the game for them is that they can buy gold and save time.
There's just alot of people out there a game needs to cater to and i think those who particpate in RL market or who want to be part of the market on a business perspective are a type of gamer that as time goes on will be catered to specifically. EQ 2 does that with their in-game market servers where players can buy and sell in game items.
I think Blizzard should look into something similar to cater for that player base that may be the driving force of those 3rd party sellers. If they take the market in-game it'll hurt alot of 3rd party sellers and maybe rid of them completely.
But there's still going to be issues. Whether there's a 3rd party or an in-game market there will be farmers and groups ready to exploit resources to gain profits in these markets. Also I'm not sure powerleveling in an ingame market is possible so there will still be 3rd parties doing this and Blizzard will still have to handle all the hacks and complaints that are going on now.
It's a tough situation guys, it's like this with every MMO. The main issue is exploitation, security and economy. I'm not sure there will be a difference if Blizzard ups their gold drops as there will always be something of value that could be sold from a 3rd party vendor. Even if everything is bind-on pickup they will find some service to offer to cater to some sort of demand.
So maybe we should think of what would lessen the power of these 3rd party vendors. If all they can offer is accoutns and powerleveling it's better than the current alternative.
I think Blizzard should maybe re-balance their gold rewards and bring the market in-game so at least there's a greater sense of purchasing safety. And if in-game markets are offensive to too many then open up a few servers that have in-game markets to cater to those who desire that (which i'm sure is a huge segment of the WoW population; you can't deny it with all the sales these 3rd parties make). That'll lessen the power and annoyance of 3rd party vendors, but sadly it won't rid of them. I don't think anything can unless real laws are passed for this.
What do you guys think? I use alot of opinionated statements using I think, maybe we can try, things to that effect, let's try not to flame each other and make personal comments on someone's statement, even if that person themself belittled someone else. I think ignoring is the best way to weed out those little annoyances, if that person doesn't feel heard they'll flame by themselves and disappear. Replying is just fuel to their fire, even if you think you've shafted them, rebuttles are endless.
Just trying to carry on the discussion.
Peace.
On one hand, WoW is so freaking easy that I don't see why anyone would need to buy gold. The best gear is obtained through grinding honor or raiding. Virtually no money required.
Which leads to my other point, maybe if Blizzard made their game more dynamic and less about mindless grinding and raiding, people would have NO reason to buy gold.
Power leveling on the other hand... It's already really easy to level up in WoW, so there's not much to do to counteract that except let people be level 70 right when they open their account.
Some people are just too lazy.
Well Jasco20,
All I can say is that I hope they catch you and ban you.
Maybe then you'll look outside the box and realize that people like you are the reason for the inflation we see in the markets.
It's a circle.
1. Things become overpriced due to player greed. That's fine, only an idiot would buy something that is way way way overpriced.
2. People then buy gold to buy these overpriced goods.
3. People then realize they can actually sell things at inflated prices. So they keep bumping up the price.
4. Repeat step 1.
So then you have way too much gold in the economy, so Blizzard makes things like Epic flying mounts and training cost more gold then a casual gamer will ever see. So the gold buying cheater thus directly influences the inflation of the price of goods in the game economy.
Can you not see this? You admit to cheating because you have more fun. I'm glad you are having fun, but having fun at the expense of others is not a good thing.
If you cannot see this, then you are beyond hope and I pray that your account is banned.
Do you think in-game markets would alleviate the inflation (well i'm not sure if it's too late already for existing servers) let's say if the in-game markets are only in certain servers? I mean the inflation in those servers will rise, but that's a given and that's what players who would join those servers would understand.
Those servers would entice players like Jasco, because they'd be legit, ban-free and it would give the typical user a shot at making some money themselves with the integrated market system governed by Blizzard. Maybe that will sway alot of people to these servers and forget about 3rd party vendors all-together. I'm sure there will still be some market activity for non-in-game market servers but the demand would lower drastically because I'm sure most buyers don't want the risk of getting caught and banned for it and would rather move server.
Would that entice you Jasco?
And heerobya do you think that would be a step in the right direction or a step backwards?
Love to hear your thoughts. Lol not that any of this stuff would get implemented, I"m just trying to see why Blizzard wouldn't want to do this. I only see positive influence.
I just think it's an unfair advantage. Like most things in Real life, the person with more money has the advantage. Why extend that harsh reality to the gaming world? We all pay our monthly fee, we should have the same access to goods.
I've always thought that Blizzard needs to put some controls on the market. Think of it this way, how much do goods sell for if you sell them to a vendor? Not even CLOSE to what people sell stuff on the Auction House for.
So they already have a "value" attached to every item that can be traded / sold. Why not use that value as a hard CAP on the auction house (and even in player to player trades and mail)
They could easily incorporate some supply and demand features that would bump the price cap up a bit if the item is rare, etc.
The future of MMOs is going to sting for you, I imagine. Most games are going to be Free to play with microtransactions, it's a very successful business model and more and more companies are trying it out every day. Heck, even EA is doing it now.
But you're right, you pay a monthly fee so you shouldn't have to pay more to keep up. Good thing Blizzard is not just saying "Oh well, it's their money." then.
But seriously, nobody HAS to buy gold in WoW. If people actually have trouble making money in WoW, they should work on improving their methods, not complaining about inflation. Is inflation bad in WoW? Heck yeah, last time I played large prismatics were like 30g each. But there's nothing in the game except maybe Black Temple gems that are not obtainable by even casual players.
And aren't they letting you buy BT gems with heroic badges soon?