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Asian MMOs, why keep making the same mistakes?
Hi-Five
Member Posts: 48
I love the Korean MMORPGs artistic design, I think asian designers by far the best in this business. but beside the visual appeal, Korean and other Asian MMOs are horrible when designing an MMORPG for US & Euro Market. You think by now that companies will learn after, Hero Online, Archlord, Sword of the New World, Silk Road etc... even thou they produce a few great game such as Final Fantasy, but overall the trends are poor against them.
The biggest negative trend with Asian MMOs is the poor usage of monsters with spawning, AI, and over burden of them.
-Monsters are everywhere, as soon you exit a safe zone [town], you will see hundred of monsters for no reason.. It doesn't really explain why or how monsters are standing next to your front door. The worst insult is that NPC somehow doesn't see them either. The only really solution is for players to pretend that you don't see any monsters.
-Too many monsters, beside having monsters everywhere, they have alot of them... when I said alot, I mean alot.. how do you explain alot...
-Stupid monsters AI, but i think the biggest insult beside having too many monsters at every locations is that the monster are just plain stupid. They spawn near you for no reason, they don't attack you when you suppose to, they don't aggro, they don't assault you, they don't do anything...
-All bad guys {monsters, creatures, and/or whatever} are the same from level 1 to Max Level.. the only diff is the skill. This is a problem all across MMO, but asian MMOs are the worst when it comes to using this feature.
Ok, so why should these companies care about my opinion? I think they don't care at all....that is why so many companies came to America and failed...
Comments
Like I've been saying for years and in several places on these forums....do your research before complaining about asian MMOs. The mass amount of stupid AI enemies is cause the asians absolutely love to mass slaughter mobs or grind on them for hrs/days/weeks/months on end.
That is the style they love. They also prefer playing the weak/skinny hero that has to rise up and overcome the big muscle-bound enemies/bosses etc.
Where as in the US and EU we prefer the thousands of mindless and extremely boring quests for mass XP to lvl as fast as possible, then sit at the cap with nothing to do. We also prefer to be the big muscle-bound idiot that slaughters the weak... Whooo thats so much fun...I'd rather be playing a grind and still be working towards advancing my character and slaughtering more than 30 mobs to lvl up. {Well technically I should cut myself from that we category as I'm hating the US style of MMOs more and more...}
I don't understand the obsession with mass quests and getting max lvl in a month or less...sometimes only a week tops.
Kemih ~ 13 Red Mage | Currently playing FFXI & LOTRO, awaiting Warhammer Online & Aion...
endless grinding is the same as grinding quests forever. its all pve, except one you stay in one spot and the other u gotta run around. Really i dont like either, and am hoping the 3 large titles coming out this year that are promising large PvP/RvR will do just that. I know im not alone b/c ive got a full group of friends that are waiting on this also. u shouldnt be so quick to judge katashi not all US/EU players are the same, as im sure not all asian gamers are the same also. stereotyping is bad mmkay?
Protip: If someone does NOT list at least one positive and one negative about the game they are critiquing, its best to ignore the post.
endless grinding is the same as grinding quests forever. its all pve, except one you stay in one spot and the other u gotta run around. Really i dont like either, and am hoping the 3 large titles coming out this year that are promising large PvP/RvR will do just that. I know im not alone b/c ive got a full group of friends that are waiting on this also. u shouldnt be so quick to judge katashi not all US/EU players are the same, as im sure not all asian gamers are the same also. stereotyping is bad mmkay?
Stereotyping on the true of the matter? ok...... That is the truth wether u wanna believe it or not. The mass pop of Asians prefer mindless monster grinds, and the mass pop of US/EU prefer quest grinds.
There are always exceptions to this like myself being from US and I prefer the Asian grinds more. There will always be ppl from both sides that prefer the others more...
Kemih ~ 13 Red Mage | Currently playing FFXI & LOTRO, awaiting Warhammer Online & Aion...
I really don't believe that the Korean Gaming Companies are trying to make games for the US and/or Euro Markets. They make games that will be successful in the Asian Gaming Community/Market. If they can they will try to bring games to the US/Euro Markets, but they are not going to rewrite an entirely new game.
There does seem to be a different play style. I cant really say one is better than the other. I can only hope that they can bring the best from ( or what we as the US/Euro Markets ) both markets. I'm really hoping that Aion can come close to that.
I dont really think these companies are failing. A great many of them do very well in Korea and with little effort/marketing/money can bring the games to US/Euro and probally still manage to squeeze a profit.
Asian MMO companies do not have to listen to US / Euro Market players, but the fact is that most asian MMOs are not doing well in the store. It is funny how you take this as a negative bash toward Asian MMOs.... I am trying to suggest that they should add features that will make them more marketable, not change...
If you like that gaming style, please buy their products, but if you want to support those companies, maybe you should suggest them to listen to the American/European consumers...
but oh well... I rather not debate about this.. the last two people got me all fire up for a pointless MMO style. Good luck!!!
One thing u have to say about the asian mmo´s is that character auto fighting animations have a higher standard then eu or us mmo´s when its on auto slashing.mostly the amount of different styles too could be the martial heritage they have that they expect more of that basic fighting moves.
as compared to Eu-Us mmo´s they basic auto attacks usally is just a slash of a "insert weapon of choise" and thats it, with more care for the obtainable skills.
Why bother to change anything? They still make money just fine rehashing the same junk. If someone is willing to spend some money on it, why provide any more than just the bare minimum?
ya zikiel has it right, if ppl will rebuy the same game why change it? obviously no matter where you live people eat up the style that is popular and companies will keep remaking game styles for profit. i dont fall into this catagory as i refuse to buy alot of the crap that keeps coming out. I guess there just arnt enough of us that want change to encourage it.
Protip: If someone does NOT list at least one positive and one negative about the game they are critiquing, its best to ignore the post.
Well first thing you gotta ask is...are they making mistakes? Remember, most of these F2P games people gripe about are released in the west after they have been out for awhile in Asia. They are not "new releases" and most are not made specifically for our market. WE are the secondary market in this case. If they make money, which many of them do, then are they mistakes? NCSoft is one of the few Asian companies that do publish games specifically for the western market and has been fairly successful with titles like CoX, GW, TR.
There is a lot of stereotyping with this whole mindless grind vs western quest grinds. If that was true, WoW would not be doing as well as it is. Remember, out of that 10 million epeen number everyone likes to throw around, over 5.5 million of them are Asian, not westerners.
As far as some of the points, hmmm...I find any western games have the same issues. Monsters everywhere...find me a western MMO that doesn't have that. I can go outside the city gates in any western game be it WoW, DAoC or whatever and grind on rats and dogs or whatever. Stupid AI? What MMO has a good one aside from Ryzom? MMO mobs generally are either passive or have an aggro radious then follows its default combat scripting...thats about the extent of most AI's. Lineage 2, a game released in 2004 has mobs that run off, gets help then come back with its buddies. L2 is like the grand daddy of the asian grinder. Its a simple script but it has it. Please don't tell me EQ is not / or was not a grind back in the day. EQ pretty much invented the grind / raid based formula we have today.
Many of the issues you point out can be found in every western MMO as well. I do agree that Asians have more style and flare when it comes to art but that has always been the case. They also make much better animated combat systems then westerns games. Maybe someday there will be a joint venture and everyone will get over this asian vs western nonsense. Probably will never happen as taste are completely different and MMOs are not near as successful in the west as they are in Asia.
Remember, MMOs take years to make. They really aren't going to be 5 years into development, then completely redo everything cause a game released 3 months before met poor results. Also Foriegn MMOs usually take years to port over to the US unless they are from a large name developer like NCSoft or Gravity.
When you see a foriegn mmo, its design is usually stuck on evolutions from 5+ years ago.
I dislike all the quest in mmorpgs now day. Wouldn't be so bad if they were just optional, but they made them basically mandatory for leveling. Also mmorpgs now days in US are just too fast. I guess us in US like instant gratification. Well most of us I guess. I prefer a game like EQ where I decide what to kill and where to go. I don't need a game deciding that for me.
all level based games are exactly the same, you have exp so you need things to kill.
Its the same as just about every text based rpg (aka, MUD, MUSH) You do quests kill stuff and grind.
There where very few that did a level-less system but even then it was a grind of some sort. So one thing all rpg's are going to be is a grind. I think even planetside has a grind to it. Only difference there is that you kill other people other than NPCs.
As for AI, honestly there is no such thing. I really haven't see a good "Adaptive" AI. And when you are talking about weak NPC's I dont think designers want them to be ubersmarty creatures. AoC may change that tho. So IMO about the only game that was different was preNGE-SWG, and the upcomming DF. They are both level-less. If you want to be a good killer then you have to go out and kill things. If you want to be a good /fill your job app then you go out and do that.
Westerners don't have that same experience; if the goal is too long to achieve they will leave because they don't have that social aspect Easterners do.
Also, explain this thinking to me:
You say "big muscle-bound idiot that slaughters the weak" when talking about Americans and "love to mass slaughter mobs" (clearly the Mobs must be weak in order to mass slaughter them) when talking about Asians, where is the difference? Seems to me you suggest both groups love to slaughter the weak, but Americans are idiots for it and Asians are not.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
if what you are comparing to is WoW, most MMOs aren't doing so well, but consider this, many asian MMOs are low budget B-movie type crap (eg. Seal Online, JY Online 2, Dragonraja, Crossgate, TalesWeaver, etc...) that doesn't need a WoW quantity of audience to make money. They also have pop-idols promoting games and thousands of followers purely from that aspect. Games like Ragnarok Online, Dragonraja, Crossgate and it's predecessor StoneAge, all span across east Asia and can easily match, if not beat all Western MMORPGs (other than WoW).
not all of us simply open our mouths and just let words flow out.
-- Vet of: UO, Pre-AI AO, EQ, DAoC, Shadowbane, Pre-CU SWG, EQ2, RO, Crossgate, Neocron, StoneAge, JY Online, JY Online 2, Seal Online, Asgard Online, Mabinogi, Dragonraja, Lineage, Guild Wars, WoW US, WoW China, WoW Taiwan, EVE Online, LOTRO, Dark and Light, FFXI, FFXIV, Age of Conan, Atlantica Online, STO, and many more...
-- Still have an account on: WoW: Cata(US)(2 months+).
-- waiting for them to make:
Zork(game), Wizardry Compiled(novel), Dune(novel), G1 Transformers(cartoon).
that is absolutely incorrect. although many players have computers at home, quite often, they will go to the local net-gaming cafes to play together, usually in groups of 2-6. i know this for a fact in china, hong kong, singapore, japan, taiwan, and not completely certain about korea, but the fact they have 100+ seater gaming centers, they probably do as well. in truth there are more people at gaming centers playing games like CS, Call of Duty, Starcraft, WC3 TD's and DotA's, but there are almost always a decent turnout of MMO players, including not too few female players as well. Even more so in China as many people do not have the luxury of a computer in their homes, and 1 full night (10pm-10am) of gaming only costs around $2-3USD(16-24RMB). have you not even heard of the constant news from gaming journals of players not going home, and the occasional deaths of players at netcafes due to fatigue and lack of nutrition?
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/tsearch/internet+cafes+games.htm
where have you been for the past 10 years?
-- Vet of: UO, Pre-AI AO, EQ, DAoC, Shadowbane, Pre-CU SWG, EQ2, RO, Crossgate, Neocron, StoneAge, JY Online, JY Online 2, Seal Online, Asgard Online, Mabinogi, Dragonraja, Lineage, Guild Wars, WoW US, WoW China, WoW Taiwan, EVE Online, LOTRO, Dark and Light, FFXI, FFXIV, Age of Conan, Atlantica Online, STO, and many more...
-- Still have an account on: WoW: Cata(US)(2 months+).
-- waiting for them to make:
Zork(game), Wizardry Compiled(novel), Dune(novel), G1 Transformers(cartoon).
I think a large portion of these "faults", seen in many many Asian MMORPGS, is accredited to poor budgets.. It's a cheap, simplified approach.
Let me explain it to you. Psychologists have discovered that people will get addicted to repeatable action whenever there are some variations and rewards are metered out in a semi-random fashion.
Slot machine is a very good example of it. This phenomenon is tied to the mechanism of how your brain releases endorphins.
MMORPG is inherent designed around this psychology. The developers essentially balancing two factors: the rewards (xp/loot/...), variations (quest, different type of monsters to grind). I suppose they found that quest-grinding is optimal in this scenario. Not too much variations because content costs money. The reward/variation ratio is enough to hook people.
they like to be strong and high lv and slaughter the weak because they are weak and get beat up and get no recognition cause there not intelligent either.
I find this post funny as I like all of the features which you have stated to be mistakes. I really enjoy being able to fight many mobs at once and always having another ready. Also asian mmos tend to do much better in the art department, at least for my taste.
I don't know what your talking about monsters all being the same, any pay to play asian MMO has quite a variety. I agree however that there is little AI involved, but the same can be said for pretty much any MMO. If your talking about F2P, then why don't you start donating money to them so they can afford all the features you want
Tried: Vanguard, UO, Rappelz, Archlord, RF Online, SWG, WAR, Ryzom, Anarchy Online, AC, APB, STO, Perfect World, Black Prophecy...
Played: EQ,EQII, Lineage, Lineage 2, GW, EVE Online, AoC, DoAC, iRO, AC2, WoW, SWTOR, Runes of Magic, Allods, Rift..
Currently Playing: Tera
*looks at euangelion avatar*
*looks at euangelion sign*
*looks at euangelion nick*
Ok, you like that art. But let me ask you... you notice that these anime-ske characters all look like a copycat of anothers. I can show you a character, and you will have no idea from what korean game is, because all look the same. That is not a positivo point, imho. That mean lack of originality. Even If you like anime-ske character, and you obviusly like it. You may want some originality!
About the thing "you can fight many mobs at once". I suspect these games are designed to fight only one at once, but you kill that one, and theres already 20 around that will _float_ around you in a lame way.
Play Tabula Rasa, a lame game, but squads of "stroggs" will spawn, and attack you as squads. Thats how you fight "many mobs at once". Korean games are nothing like that!.
You got to watch out when you said "ASIAN"
So you played korean game, does it mean every game in asia is the same? Korea does have a large market in MMO but they aren't only producers.
China have many great titles as well such as perfect online and ageof armor ...etc.
Japan also have many MMO titles - FFXI, tower of babylon, paradora, zero...etc
What you claiming only applies to korean game.
FFXI doesn't have stupid AI, and they don't have monster everywhere. Instead, FFXI's monster are too smart that too many player fall victim to them... (who can forget the bogy in dunes that kill new players every night...or that banshee in qufim or those nasty gobin that always know where you are at)
While american love the "give me level series by doing quest" a.k.a the Wow trend. Korean enjoy fighting alot more and grinding hence the requirement of stupid AI with unlimited spawntime.
Its all in the matter of style different culture prefer... when they made the game, they only intend to target one specific audience.
You don't see Wow being popular in japan, don't you?
none
I 100% agree but the korean asian gaming market is a lil diffrent.Sometimes these games are fun mindless hack and slash great for some people hell i dont mind poppin on a few once in awhile.but yeah every single one that comes out they hype and over hype em then they just seem too be the same model diffrent game engine same aspect.There a few out there that are interestin like that goonzu or whatever it is is a unique one.
These "features / Problems" do need a change in Asian MMOs. Most of these games have a low fanbase, or die out quickly when the next new game comes out. Once you've played one Asian MMO you have played them all.
Monsters are dumb as all hell. They run up and melee or shoot you. That is all. In US MMOs monsters will cast debuffs, call friends, run away, snare you then shoot you form range. Monsters ocme in teams of different classes at the player.
Someone on the first page mentioned that the Asian market likes to fight strong monsters. This is a lie. They fight fight weak and dumb mosnters that they kill in masses to farm. Asian MMO games are jsut made for farming with very little added to bring about immersion. DAOC is an old ass game, but the monsters in their last 2 or 3 expansions had tons of variety in their attacks. Boss were a real challenge. They didn't cast only 2 spells they had an arsonel of many spells to cast on the raid. Same thing goes for WoW.
Asian MMOs have all their focus on pretty characters and slutty females of various races. They make a pretty building or 2 and osme nice trees they spam all over the place and that is it. Terrain is left bland. Building are left without interior detail.
Speaking on lazy. These games use the same models throughout the game. The only difference is the color of the model. The texture is not really changed, and no additions are added to the model to make things interesting. Monster animations are subpar. There isn't a real variety in armor that players can wear. Many times everyone will wear the same thing at the higher levels.
In closing just ask yourself this. What Asian MMOs have lasted the test of time as a favorite by everyone? All I got is Lineage 2 and Final Fantasy 11. Now think of all the American adn European MMO games that lasted through the years as classics.