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Classes; so dull!
littzain
Member Posts: 30
Am I the only one that feels this way? I hate picking a class that I know I'm stuck with for a long time (if I want to each end game).
It's so restricting, as well as boring. I'd much rather everyone be on the same level, and merely choose which skills they want from a huge setlist. Something SWG did very well, since changing was very easy as well.
Comments
Welcome to what I've been preaching for many, many years. I've sworn off any MMO than conforms to the Class/Level/Item grind formula so prevalent in the market today.
"By the data to date, there is only one animal in the Galaxy dangerous to man, man himself. So he must supply his own indispensable competition. He has no enemy to help him." -Lazarus Long
Keep making McDonalds, MicDonalds, MuckDonalds and whatnot... While alot of people are just waiting for Pizza Hut with "create yer own pizza" menu.
Do you think the reason that most games force you to pick a class is that they think the average player will be overwhelmed by too many choices and having to figure out what skills to take? If so, what would be a way to have a 'pick your skills, create your class' system that didn't confuse these average people?
As a sandbox, SWG is superb, but in terms of freedom in character development, well, almost everyone is a creature handler, just to make the grind easier. Each prof got only 3 trees to go for, and generally, the FOTM issue features prominently. There are only a few templates going around. UO has the greatest freedom in terms of character development. Well that is another story altogether.
As for class restrictions, well it depends on the implementation. Some games provide a lot of customisation inside the classes, so that each class can be played very differently. WoW's talent trees actually allow very different constructs within a class, during the days when I play. A shadow priest is completely different from a healing version.
These said, I must confess that WoW is not as immersive a game as SWG for me. At least until CU/NGE. My WoW days ended very early, as I realise that I am not made for raids, nor the kind of PVP available back then.
While i have no problem with skill based systems i prefer class based systems. I guess that is the old D&D player in me.
What i really like is class based systems that have multiple skill sets in them which you have to build up. This makes for a class system that still has some diversity on how you play your class.
Thats their excuse...
Excuse for believing that players are illiterate morons that couldnt pass kindergarten.
And excuse for not having to work to create something in their game, since it is cheaper to copy and modify.....
And probably, investors(that has never touched a game and know zip) demand that they do it cheap, fast and easy enough for trained chimpanzees to play the game... Since for non gamers like investors...they believe gamers are no smarter than trained chimpanzees.
Ok, there are many things about MMOs that I feel are outdated, levels are probably the best example. But classes are not one of them. Not only are classes good for an MMO, I believe they are vital. It's my understanding that CoH was originally beta tested without classes and it was a fiasco. Nobody knew their roles in group play.
Not only that, but having classes follows our real life situation. We all (well those of us who are motivated) pick a "class" or more appropriately, a profession in life. Some people become doctors, some become engineers, some become janitors, etc. So this is how it works in the world of MMOs. Someone who trains to fight with a sword is not just going to be able to go out and start casting spells on mobs. It's too unbelievable.
Having classes brings structure to the game. No, my opinion is that they must remain.
I used to be a soldier, trained to kill, then they made me medic, trained to heal.. left the army, then worked as a cashier, then later librarian.. Also worked in factory.
People today rarily know 1 thing and 1 thing only. Even in fiction no one is "1 thing". Luke wasnt just a jedi, he was a soldier, a officer, a politician a teacher a pilot and a mechanic.
The "Class" is just because the people making the games want it easier for them. And us players have been formed into accepting it as how it should be... We've become Pavlovs dogs... Becaue we no longer can think for ourselves and decide what job we have in a group based on the skills that we like to play with for our character.
Well... I've not become Pavlovs dog... I hate the class system and have never had problems figuring out my role or job based on my own choices of playstyle and skills that fit it.
I would like to have a more free form to character growth since thats what RPGs are all about. Playing out an alternate you and having them grow. However, I still haven't seen many that accomplished this well. I would rather play a Good MMO regardless of thier growrth system.
Nothing wrong with the basic idea of a class system its just that its so easy to take the easy route and design a class based system that's stale and boring. Now i hear that SWG before it was messed up had a good Class based/skill based hybrid system so it is Possible to do a class based system that works well. But right now there isn't such a game which is one reason I'm essentially 'Stuck' playing EvE online.
Not that EvE is a bad game quite the opposite its deep and very well made with years of content behind it. Its just that after 4 years I'm looking forward to the next big thing [World of Darkness perhaps?].
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
restricting players by some sort of arbitrary "class" is stupid. If a person wants to learn something new, they do it, and still retain their expertise in their original area, granted, if they don't practice some skills fade.
Why excuse devs for making crappy locked in classes? We are in the 21st century where there are plans for bendable phones that clean themselves... Nanomachines are real! Where are no dynamic characters in video games? If the players demand it, it will come.
Classes are LAME!!
I think classes are both a good and a bad thing. For a single-player game, they're a horrible idea. However, in a multiplayer game, they become crucial. Not because developers are all trying to make us stupid or that they just want to make their games as easy as possible, but because of group dynamics.
In an earlier post somebody brought up real-life jobs. When somebody becomes a lawyer, they don't give that person a job based on whether or not they can argue. It's based around their training. Sure, that person may able to cook, write, sing, whatever it may be, but their profession is that of a lawyer because they went and got training.
Classes aren't a "dumbed-down" form of gameplay. They're a different type of strategy. Members X, Y, and Z learn how to use their different tactics and abilities together, along with their play styles, to overcome challenges. It's like a game of chess; you take your different pieces and try to figure out which way is the best to overcome your opponent, taking into consideration what each piece does. It doesn't need to be "specialized by skill points and talents" to make it deep. And for the record, being against class-based systems doesn't make you a sophisticated or more intelligent gamer.
The real solution, though, to the class based system is to make it more open to allowing sub-skills in. If a warrior in WoW wants to learn how to cast a certain skill a rogue or a mage might know, there should be some sort of allowance as long as it wouldn't be game breaking.
I have never understood the point of classes. I mean, where do you come up with such a weird idea? It have no "realism" into it. There is nothing equal in the real world to compare to.
And the worst part is that the class system seems to think the players are idiotes. That we cant coop to make our own decisions, or to make up our own minds.
I have played table top RPG for over 20 years, but i have not played one with classes (or levels), and same with MMORPGs. However, im now forced to do it. The next MMO im looking forward ti is TCoS.....and i hope i will have fun anyway.
I do not think that Developers go the Class route more often than not because they undervalue their customers' intelligence.
No, they do it for many different reasons:
- They provide a point of reference. A Warrior is a Warrior, when you see one, you know what to expect, it is much easier to visualize a Warrior, you know he is gonna be good with weapons up close, probably know also how to use ranged weapons but not as good as , say, Ranger. He can use heavy armors and prolly knows more than a couple of combat moves. He is tough, well armored and well armed. With skill system, you cannot have this. Yes, that Journeyman Wizard/Master Lumberjack/ Expert knife fighter is wearing armor, but he can also cast spells and cut down trees....
- Much easier to balance. You have to balance X classes, not X^4 skills that can be combined together in so many ways. If you want PvP in your game with some semblance of "fairness", then classes makes it easier for you.
- Group role. Already in WoW and its talent tree, you find warriors that are not tanks or priests that are not healers. With skill gameplay, this is compounded even more cause the guy with armor might be a merchant.
In the end, Skill or Class, does not matter that much, in my opinion. You can have a great game with either system.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
An interesting discussion about levels/classes over on lotro europes forums cropped up 2 days ago;
http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=264223&page=1&pp=10
I actually like Class based systems. My favorite though, was Ryzom, which was skill based. The difference was that in Ryzom you fell into a class eventually... it wasn't forced, and you could change it whenever, but if you started doing ranged and you kept at it... that's who you became eventually because your skills in other areas never warranted doing them.
I'd agree with a system more like that, giving you the option to chose, but making you stick to the choice after the fact...
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
I agree with you, choseing a class can be rather annoying, but there are a few games out there that don't make you chose a class, like Runescape for example, I know many people object to Runescape, but I found it quite addictive for 4 years, you can use all the skills without having to worry about being a certain class, I haven't yet found any other games that don't make you chose any, but if you would like I could keep an eye out for some, I surf alot of MMO's so I'm bound to find one at some point.
Are they really out to get me?
I would love to see classes which would affect not what skills you could take but the story / gamplay experience. A warrior – would go out a fight in wars. A thief would stay in the city and steal stuff. A scholar would solve mysteries.
Point is that for "realism" to be instituted classes need to go away, not remain. I was in the military, yet I've graduated from college. I run a small business but if you give me a weapon I can certainly defend myself.
The real point here is that people are diverse. Some more than others but all born with the capacity to do many things with varying degrees of success. Classes simply dumb-down the realistic aspect of any game they inhabit.
I only know a few people out of the thousands I have met that can only do 1 thing... 99.99% off all people I have known are capable of having numerous skillsets and capabilities. Some people are exceptional at 1 thing, very good at other things, and not-so-good at a lot of things. You can't just place that person into 1 class restrict them to doing ONLY the things that class allows him/her to do.
This is where the realistic aspect of online gaming fails. The problem is that I fear the vast majority of online gamers may in fact NEED to be restricted to classes. They may lack the desire or knowledge to diversify their avatar.
Everytime I see someone on these boards claim they like class systems in online gaming it just reinforces to me the justification for WoW, WAR, AoC, L2, current SWG, and every other MMO out there at this time. As long as you currently subscribe to an MMO with class-based systems you do not have the right to complain about it. You are justifying to THAT developer/publisher that you enjoy the system they provide you enough to pay a monthly fee to play it.
Tecmo Bowl.
I'm just burned out on Classes. Even single player RPGs arent this bad. For example in Final fantasy 12 (not the MMO) it is open system of a sorts. Be anything you want.
I tried my best to give linear mmos another shot I did. But I just cant take it I went back to EVE Online. I'd rather pay for a Timed based system then pay for the 100th rigid class based system (and yes I do mean there is over 100 Class based MMOs)....
I dont care what their reasons are. But they could at least try something different. Maybe Champions Online, APB, earthsiege, Well online, or linkrealms will deliver something soon. Just seems that those are much farther off then the nearby assault of more class based MMOs which is depressing.....
The original SWG was a sandbox game. Players were dumped into this "sandbox" world, given a basic set of clothes, minimal $$$, a basic build template, and turned loose to do whatever they wanted.
Everytime you fought unarmed combat your XP would raise in that branch of the tree. If you CHOSE to advance a level in that aspect of your character, you could by clicking that level of the tree once you reached a certain amount of XP/ The more advanced you became the more XP it required to reach the next level of the tree.
A player could advance/master a number of abilities/skills. The only restrictions you had were the 250 points of total skills you could learn. That aside, you could do anything the game offered.
The original SWG system was innovative, far more innovative than any we currently have.
Tecmo Bowl.
It is very depressing. Elder Scrolls Oblivion is better than any MMO on the market right now.
Tecmo Bowl.
That's your opinion but I dont agree with that storyline. True, everyone tends to specialize. But others are hybrids. There are Doctors that can swing a sword in real life (fencing). There are doctors that can shoot a gun well (doctor/hunter). There are doctors that can also cross into engineering (genetic research, etc).
But let's say you're right. Everyone in real life is only god at 1 thing. It's not true, but let's say it true
Still, most of us can admit these MMOs are way too similar. That's the thing, they're just too darn similar.
What's even worse we see silly things popup like 'capture the flag'.
I WTB an original idea for these MMO makers
Not necessarily no; just because you have classes doesn't mean it will be dull classes. I blame the bored developers who just take the basic outlines (DPS, tank, heal) and then make variations of them; dare to do something new and creative. Adding a secondary class (as in GW) also makes it much more fun as you then don't have to always stick to the same set of skills, but can change whenever you feel like and also adds more tactical choices.
Why is class restricting? You can always make an alt.
It is no different that you have to choose a set of skills and get locked into them.
So the fault is NOT with the class system, but whether there is lock-in rules. If a char is allowed to change class at well, there won't be complaints about restrictions.