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PLEASE, PLEASE adopt the WOW approch to PVP
taxguy
Member Posts: 60
Dear Developers:
I am constantly amazed that MMO games get developed with a strong emphasis on PVP. Frankly, i HATE PVP. Not that I am aginst one on one, which is somewhat honorable,but usually PVP turns out to be a gank fest of 6 on one or it starts after a player is engaged in RVR,which is also unfair..
The most successful MMORPG game in history is WOW. Why not adopt their strategy? Have some servers with very limited PVP unless consensual and some with wide open PVP except for starting areas. This would appeal to everyone.
Also, as with WOW, instead of forcing folks into PVP, you can have a few ( and I mean a very few) zones that are PVP oriented and give some good rewards. Thus, you would be using the carrot vs. the stick approach. You can even have special PVP events found in "arena" types of zones.
If you are going to put PVP in all servers, then at least make it painless with cheap insurance or little penalty for ship destruction,
If you want to maximize your player potential and therefore profitability, you will adopt my suggestions.
Comments
Dear Developers:
Please design the game around an open world player run economy in which anything is possible. That includes base-raping pvp gank-fests. It is of the up most importance that a sense of realism is gained if this space genre MMO is to thrive.
Dear taxguy:
This is a space we're talking about - A dark scary place of almost unlimited potential. It may seem daunting and it may frighten you, but softening the edges will only hurt a game of this genre. Comparing JGE to WoW is like trying to compare EvE to WoW and any sensible person would never do that...
To wank, or not to wank. The ultimate MMO sacrifice.
You might want to have a read of this:
http://www.jumpgateevolution.co.uk/news.php?readmore=4
Very interesting. Although I still feel that comparing to WoW's PvP mechanics is detrimental to the space genre and fundamentally flawed.
It's EVE they should be using as a benchmark. Those subscription numbers they're talking about are most likely going to move across to WAR or AoC anyway... Not come here to JGE. They're aiming at the wrong crowd of people.
Sitting on the fence will only hurt the game. It's PvP or server specific, nothing else will work.
To wank, or not to wank. The ultimate MMO sacrifice.
EVE as a benchmark? no thanks. EVE with its 150k subscribers shouldnt be a benchmark for anything.
EVE is boring me the hell out, and anything besides its economy isnt great.
and hell i dont even like how the economy turns out cause you either need to not have a life or buy your in-game money to get anywhere serious with that game.
sure it looks pretty but lets not go off-topic.
In a fast paced space MMO, you need to make your own PVP rules.
Get in open beta see how they work and adjust. its the best way.
Eve is boring as hell. But if you were to combine EVE's open world policy with JGE's game play, not only would it pull a massive chunk of EVE's subscription base, but it would also draw in all those people boycotting EVE because it sucks.
I completely agree though, a fast paced space MMO needs to be run by the player.
To wank, or not to wank. The ultimate MMO sacrifice.
Please make the game FFA PVP, 100% Looting, No Instances, and allow players to live and play within their ships and/or houses. And let there be planetary play AS WELL AS spaceship play.
- Phos
Taxguy,
Why isn't there a "PvE-server" in every game*? It is jumpgate devs which estimate that the PvE market is at least half the players base (prolly a lot more).
At least, they are semi honest and you know from the start(semi cause they still try to argue that PvE can be fun in such a setting, LOL). That's been said, there are plenty of games, which don't you go check another?
*Actually, there should be many PvE variation servers in every game IMO, but that would be another topic.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
But I do agree that all new MMO games MUST have PVE content for the huge numbers of people that enjoy it. The Devs need their money to keep going, so all pvp players should be encouraging them to create PVE servers for the cash cows that PVE players represent. That way Devs get the cash injection they NEED (not just want, but NEED) to keep a great game going, while keeping the PVE players on their own servers where pvp players can't get all up set by the sight of them.
To the guy that posted about wow: I agree with you if you are talking about the pvp tag system. You will get a lot of wow haters responding to you if you mention that game. What you should have done was talked about the mechanic (pvp tag on/off) and not mentioned the game you were taking the idea from.
I think PVP tag on/off should be implemented if JGE goes for one big server type where PVE and PVP players have to mix. IF JGE has PVE and PVP servers separate though, they should not bother with tags.
______________
Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu
Aha... then you would be the first one who quit it couse of beiing ganked. This System will never work and every game developer knows it. People dont like to beeing ganked, and they dont like to lose their stuff .... this system it would be a "survival of the fitest", but with the exeption that the "non so fit" players would just quit untill there would be no more victims to gank. Well and then the roxxor games would become vitictims themself of ever more roxxor games, untill they quit too. This geos on unitl the population of the game is zero.
Wow is not such a successfull game without a reason (after so many years).
FFA PvP games have and DO work ... if done properly. People who go around saying "FFA PvP won't work, blah blah gank, blah blah stole all my stuff", should consider some of the following options.
A. Don't play. This one is fairly self-explanatory. You may be a little disappointed that you'll miss out on a great game, but heck, spare a thought for some of us PvP players who get missed out by a large percentage of the MMO market.
B. Give it a go. Man I was really against playing on the Darktide server back in 99 because I was scared of losing my pretty matching celdon suits. But after trying it and hanging tough, I never looked back.
C. Keep playing WoW. I give my condolences to those of you who played WoW as a first gaming experience, and who have been witness to some of the mangled efforts that have been released in the same vein ever since. The first gen games were and still are the best games (in my opinion of course). The gameplay is just so much deeper, and most of us older gamers prefer our games to be a little harder and more ruthless.
Alot of people put foward the argument "I goto work/school all day, I don't want to come home and have to focus all of my attention/leet skillz on a game". Alot of us also sit all day at work/university/school and can't wait to get home and go head to head with another player, gank lifestones and loot your pretty bunny slippers. If the PvP in JGE is going to be too tough for you, simply don't play the game. Don't instead try and take a feature that interests alot of other gamers out of the game. Screw appealing to a larger subscription base, instead pick your niche and do it PROPERLY.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Yes, please do this so you and the three other people who will play this game can have loads of fun.
Don't play, good idea. I'm sure the devs will not agree however. This is their business you are trying to limit. Why not just have FFA PVP servers for those who want that? I'm all for pvp, I like it, but not FFA. Also, I like PVE sometimes too. I think they should make 3 server rule sets:
PVE
PVP
FFAPVP
And thereby maximise the money comeing in.
______________
Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu
I won't ever play another game like wow. I hate the fact that they took 99% of the strategy and fun out of pvp and turned it into a grind. I do like the arena system (duals for gear) but at the end of the day there is no death penalty or loot loss or anything else that keeps a person from corpse rushing every fight (except a slowly increasing res timer). To have quality pvp there has to be a risk vs reward system in place. If you risk nothing you will never get a sense of accomplishment from winning and if you never win anything worth having there is no reason to put yourself at risk.
Stop whining and login so I can kill you!
I would mcuh rather have a FFA PvP server than have a single server, or single set of server offering nothing but half-assed watered down gameplay and PvP.
As I also said, the developers SHOULD be aiming for a niche, rather than trying to keep everyone happy (and releasing the same sort of diluted garbage that we see all to often at te moment). People WILL play FFA PvP, no matter how many of you hate it, there is still a large playerbase who actually enjoy, and who would flock to a game that came out with a well implemented and polished system.
However if the developers of JGE want to appeal to the masses, then having a separate FFA PvP server might be the answer, as it would not only give us PvP junkies a home, but would also be a server where more curious players might want to venture to get a tatse of the action, or where more casual players could create a character and play whenever they feel the urge.
It is however vital, that the PvP system is implemented properly. And in my opinion, the gameplay and control features that JGE is boasting is potentially one of the best for PvP. They're sitting on a PvP goldmine here, and it would be a crime to not atleast try an bring on a solid and ruthless PvP system.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Upon reading the article posted earlier in the thread, its pretty obvious that JGE will offer some sort of strong PVE gameplay and protection for the players who prefer not to PVP except on their terms. I'd guess it will be in the form of separate shards, with some being consensual and some being more open, a la WOW, since the article clearly states they admire WOW's system.
Also, I'm starting to doubt they will open many (if any) totally FFA PVP servers, I think they may go with more of the WOW or DAOC RVR model instead.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
HI taxguy,
Yeah PvP is pretty much been the realm of the young boys since they got bored of their FPS on Xbox and PS2. However, for MMO's it's rather simple isn't it? We are mostly from democracies. Gives us a choice, right? Developers can give the PvPers their servers and the majority of us may use the other servers for roleplay and PvEers. It's truly not "rocket science" just provide the appropriate choice for the tastes of the individual player.
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
For the life of me, I can't see why developers don't have these options.
I understand that this game is just a cash cow and that the developers are trying to make as much money as they can. If people want a toned down server I say give it to them. But this game won't survive unless it has a dedicated PvP server or at least dedicated PvP areas. This is a MMO set in space, a massively diverse area that will be populated by people and A.I. alike. The A.I. don't have a choice to opt out of PvP, why should another player going about his/her business?
I want to immerse myself in a game that makes me feel like I'm in space. A game that makes me feel like there could be real consequences to my actions/other peoples actions. I want it to feel as realistic as it can possibly be.
Its this very sort of realism that has kept EvE going for as long as it has. Without it, it would be just another cookie cutter space-based RPG.
The only tip the developers should be taking from WoW is the difference in realm types. If they want to know what makes a space genre MMO survive, they should look at EvE and start building their great gameplay upon that.
Seriously, if EvE had the kind of gameplay I experienced at Connect, it would have wiped the floor a long time ago.
To wank, or not to wank. The ultimate MMO sacrifice.
I am going to add a vote for restricted PvP and focus on PvE.
Pure and simple, there is a large customer segment who like PvE more than PvP. If you want to ignore us, then fine .. we will play something else.
There is an opportunities here though. There is no dominant sci-fi MMORPGs yet (Eve online, while good, is niche so it does not count). So whoever who can capture the sci-fi market is going to come out ahead.
I'm with the WoW guy actually.....
I have a solution, though, to the plaguing issue of the PvP and the borderline lust for it.
Option A: Two server sets (perhaps a third, for the RP crowd....maybe). Prepare ahead of time for full support of both servers, and expect to require different patching for each one. What balances one server will not likely balance another. Make sure to have a fully player operated PvP world, and the PvE world needs to be player INFLUENCED, but not operated. This will require nearly double the investment in both time and manpower, but the payoff is securing two or three niches in one go which WILL lock your game for massive subs.
Option B: The expanded WoW model. Inherently, the only thing thats actually WRONG with WoW PvP is that it was never fully realized due to them having to hand feed the raiders. Bear with me....this means that most zones will be NPC controlled with player interaction deciding NPC faction dominance. There will be areas of the game locked to faction, and these areas shall be enough to at least allow the average player to achieve maximum level without having to deal with PvP. The bonus will be this....triple XP in PvP controlled zones.
Yes, triple. The reward for both surviving in and helping your faction control these zones will have to be this in order to attract the non-PvP crowd. This may SOUND silly...but historically, when given a pretty carrot to chase at first...the PvE'ers often find they really love PvP. This process is a set up to bring new players into the ideal...which will lead into the final stage. Massive and multiple fully player controlled and constructed zones. The gathering resources here will be used to construct weapons which will be the best in the game (by a small margin...3% sounds good to me). These zones are not forced upon the PvE players...no indeed they will still have their PvE areas separate from this to farm their own gear and even achieve their own instanced player houses (Fully stocked with player built items, no less).
Now, how do we avoid the issue of gear dominance (and thus, the issue of veteran players forever having a chokehold over new players in PvP zones)? Simple, we construct the skill and damage equations to find most of their gains from build over gear. A reasonable expectation would be that a persons overall "power" should exist 75% build and 25% weaponry. A man shooting for 100 in full gear is not so outclassing a guy naked hitting back for 75....especially not in larger scale PvP. To control this as the game is expanded, you steer the percentage every level after the initial cap. Eventually allowing only 1% gain from gear at level elventy billion...should the situation be that. It is also very important to use small figures for the game. Smacking things for a few thousand damage is the reason so many gear games get out of hand as is...if you keep the numbers small its easier to work the figures and deal with the power curves and soft caps.
I ranted...I'm sorry...
I just feel that WoW was on the right track indeed. They just chose a path that didn't allow them to use it.
First of all games need to stop emulating WOW and its simplified concepts many companies have been trying to emulate WOW and they have failed miserably (SWG anyone?) FFA PVP like in EVE and a open world setting and sandbox skill based system has kept the more older players happy. We dont need another raid instance, grindfest on the market. There is a sense of danger when you have a FFA PVP type system make you make actual decisons and plan out you route to avoid dangers that might rob you of your life or ship just like in EVE.
If your worried about possessions you shouldnt carry them with you just whats armed on ur ship. I cant believe that people want to water games just for the sake of avoiding danger in a game that about interaction with the community. PVE is important you must have PVE content in a game and yes there are people that dont like to PVP but in a game like this and like EVE you can avoid that confrontation easily if you put in a effort.
No, games need to stop copying WOW just because it sucessful doesnt mean its what everyone wants out of a game, not everyone likes dwarves and elves and the gaming MMO industry need to quit shoving that down our throats as well. Not all gamers want to play games that are constant grindfests like WOW and its poor cousin SWG and probably some of the newer MMOs like Warhammer and AOC. Not everyone want it to be a loot all to compete in pvp either the crafters of the game should be the ones supplying us with the best items in the game. Not all people want level based MMOs, but skills instead where you cant max out in a month but takes years instead to fully develop you toon and your style of gameplay.
Games like EVE are the reason I still play MMOs SWG used to be the type of game I liked to play also until they wanted that 'target audience' WOW players and it failed and it killed the game I loved. I want a ruthless dangerous world like EVE and this game should try to take all the good things about EVE and their own ideas and make this just as good as EVE or better if it turns out to be promising you can be rest assured you will see me in this game, ifs its another WOW based in space forget it you wont see a dime from me cause I cant stand a game or a game developer that wont take a stand against the current WOW trend and do something innovative on thier own and set it apart from WOW and make it truly unique....
My vote is on PvP with consequences for an interesting and a thrilling game. And a as much player driven game as possible of course. Means: You can shoot everyone (except the lowest of newbies) everywhere, but not everywhere it's considered productive behavior. I would like it a bit different to Eve, some skilled escape after the (fast executed, no time to play around or it turns into an attempted one) kill should just be possible and the whole kill-the-criminal thing could use some more player involvement (military anyone?), but returning into faction high security areas before things are fixed again is out of question (OK, with only reasonable answers taken into consideration). And by fixed I don't think some keeping-the-PC-online-over-night-in-station-action, going, or better flying, out there and facing things is more like it.
Well, still I think a PvE server should be there to please the more... WoW inspired players. It would attract more players and that's money and that's a good thing for all of Jumpgate. If at least a decent amount of players out there wants to play games like Jumpgate more than one shard is needed anyway, so not much effort. Player numbers will tell what is liked and it's better than some foul compromise trying to please all and is disliked by a lot.
PS: I play more a non PvP style. After some hours in the open PvP world of Jumpgate Classic I had only something more than a dozen fights in JG:C and most of them either being HG flagged ('full' PvP) or unreg (lawless area). Result: 0 kills, 2 time got killed, 1 time payed for save transit, 1 time called it even because of lag, 2-3 times forced the other to leave and else made an escape (not much honour in that, though the only thing a financier can damage on a 'nix is, with some luck, the ego of its pilot
).
Just remember in a PvP world, if your friend is
by a 
then don't sit there 
, 
or 
(no, not 
, 
or 
either), go 
and make the 
look 
. And if it turns out 
and 
for you, you're still 
and no
, if the 
tries to 
you afterwards, it's just -> 
and 
making him look like a 
.
After that I better
and accept that I'm 
, sorry if I 
ated you and please don't 
, just go 
, else you may end being completly 
like me.
PS: Sorry for that, but the Smileys asked for it.
firefly notes," I cant believe that people want to water games just for the sake of avoiding danger in a game that about interaction with the community"
Response: Believe it! Again, I don't think that most players are totally against PVP. Heck I participated in it at WOW, however, that was a controlled environment with surprisingly very little ganking.. In EVE and possibly here, ganking is the norm because most PVP players are COWARDS/
Yes, let me call them what they are. I was a warlock in WOW ,which is a strong PVP class. RARELY has anyone taken up my challenge . However, they they can get three on me or attack me when engaged in RVR, they would gladly do that.
Another problem with PVP servers is balance. There are always complaints about classes being overpowered,which results in nerfing,which I HATE.. If PVP doesn't occur much, there need not be that much worry about overbalanced classes.
I think you're missing the point. This isn't a class based fantasy game. This is a space based MMO with essentially a level playing field. Everyone will have the ability to get ship with x stats and y weapons. Balancing will not be an issue like it is in WoW.
WoW's PvP flaws do not apply in a space set MMO which is why people need to stop comparing the two as if they were brothers.
It's imperative that a space set MMO is controlled by the player, otherwise its just another Freelancer or X3 and it'll stop being played after a few months. If NetDevil want this game to survive they need to take a leaf out of EvE's book.
To wank, or not to wank. The ultimate MMO sacrifice.
Oh god, WoW has pathetic PvP.... when they introduced BG's, IMO wow died back then....
Old skool WoW ftw... world PvP ftw...
___________________
Give me a good skill based sandbox game, and i'll give you a cookie!