ok lets extract all games which are older then 5 years doesnt make the games bad just old what means most prob we already played and beaten em. and all games which are dead/almost dead and all games which are stupid f2p asia grinders which i personally dont count as serious mmorpgs we have left. DDO EVE EQ2 GW Lotro POTBS TR Vanguard WoW. FF11 L2 TR COH COV thats all the MMO market has to offer... some are of bad quality some we most prob already played. so yes beeing MMORPG fan is pain. if u have game u like stay with it as long u can... there is not much else.
I wouldn't be massively surprised if the MMO market was eventually superceded by games that are primarily single-player/offline but allow connecting to a persistant world for group-play like instances. It'd be a shame if it happened, 'cos we'd lose a lot of the spontaneity that can make MMO's so funny, but it'd be one method to combat lag, I guess.
Actually, I'd prefer it. Prefer that bandwidth isn't wasted on streaming content, and all of the mess of cheats and riftraft to play MMOs, but still have the ability to do 3 things -- have a leaderboard; trade; and chit chat.
Major problem I have with MMOs is that the communities tend to be either kiddish with very thin skins; or think they can be sociopaths and hound players to no end. Games are suppose to be fun and represent your playing style, not be kicked around if you're a different type of player. To me interaction would be for "business", the fun part is doing my own thing without all of the censorship (I don't need no freaking GMs to play a game FCS!) and kiddie drama online life entails.
In short, I want interaction when I may want and need it, not required to play. Sometimes just being immersed in a game without the "U R pwnz!!" crap is a blessing in itself!
FF11 ok i forgot (very old tho) L2 its almost 5 years now and NA servers are very dead... rest are 80% bots TR already have it in list COH COH and COV are 1 game and in EU the servers are dead!!! just the trial players make it seem full but try getting a party 30+
FF11- came out na 4 years ago....E2 is 4 years and old and WoW is almost 4....so its not that old
L2 -has allot of bots..but the eu servers are doing well..they are even opening a new one next month
TR-OOPS HEHE
COH- NA server are doing well though....most eu players play in the na servers....DDO has dead eu servers aswell
I think something may be wrong with the players that play this genre today if anything according to the OP's post. If you only want your online massive world to last one year then yes MMORPGs are not coming out fast enough for you. These games should be worlds though like EQ that people enjoy for many years. They should take a long time to adventure to the end and have a lot of depth.
I think games in this genre keep getting more shallow and easier every time one comes out. They only feel like games now rather than living breathing worlds. I guess that is what some people want is just some more shallow garbage that you finish in a month and then on to the next. I feel that is the problem. We are going to end up with the garbage games that console games have become, less thinking .. more flashy fast graphics with big booms.
I think something may be wrong with the players that play this genre today if anything according to the OP's post. If you only want your online massive world to last one year then yes MMORPGs are not coming out fast enough for you. These games should be worlds though like EQ that people enjoy for many years. They should take a long time to adventure to the end and have a lot of depth. I think games in this genre keep getting more shallow and easier every time one comes out. They only feel like games now rather than living breathing worlds. I guess that is what some people want is just some more shallow garbage that you finish in a month and then on to the next. I feel that is the problem. We are going to end up with the garbage games that console games have become, less thinking .. more flashy fast graphics with big booms.
Personally, I'm also holding out for the "living, breathing world" MMO. I know the genre will never head in this direction, but if we get just one quality MMO that fits this bill i'll be satisfied.
look at the banner on the right <---- this one: titled released games. doesnt make this wanny cry??? 90% are more then 5years old. 90% of em are dead/almost dead. many of em pure BS. this is what the MMO market has to offer and its sad. every other genre could offer 100times more games in the same time with 100times the quality.... ok we get some good stuff this year but 2008 may be the best year for MMO ever u cant generalise on this one. in 1 year when all of us are bored of AOC and WAR we will again be sitting here and watch the poor list of MMOs and wait several years for the next new game.... sorry for bad english!
Nah...I'll not be bored...I'll still be playing Vanguard.
I share the OP's view. However, games are generally very slow changing, its a high risk to make something really different, and a big investment. Game developers are the most conservative of the creative people. While movies, novels and other genres evolved over time, games still follow decades old habits and plot stereotypes.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I think something may be wrong with the players that play this genre today if anything according to the OP's post. If you only want your online massive world to last one year then yes MMORPGs are not coming out fast enough for you. These games should be worlds though like EQ that people enjoy for many years. They should take a long time to adventure to the end and have a lot of depth. I think games in this genre keep getting more shallow and easier every time one comes out. They only feel like games now rather than living breathing worlds. I guess that is what some people want is just some more shallow garbage that you finish in a month and then on to the next. I feel that is the problem. We are going to end up with the garbage games that console games have become, less thinking .. more flashy fast graphics with big booms.
qombi is correct again.
MMOs get boring fast now because you are able to reach max level in a couple months. And of course a couple months is not enough time for the devs to have produced more content let alone an expansion so you are stuck doing the same thing day in and day out until new content comes out. Of course they are boring.
Back in the good old days it took you at least a year to reach max level and many it took numerous years. Why do games have to be a rush to max level (ala WoW) this is a self defeating policy.
In my opinion a game can and should take years to max out, as long as the content is good throughout all levels i really dont care how long it takes me to level. I never reached max level in EQ, there was always an expansion that raised the max before i got there, and i had tons of fun for 3+ years, and a little fun for about a year longer.
Games should be about content, not the race to max level.
But ohh, the horrible grind of the games of yore. The grind is much better now that you follow the bouncing ? from kill quest to kill quest until you reach max level.
qombi, are you playing anything now? We seem to have the same taste in games and i cant find anything worth playing.
Say all you want but this is the year MMOs become a two horse or three horse race.
I'm more then willing to bet money on AoC,Aion or WAR being successful games.
I think all three of those games have a good chance of being successful. But success does not make them a good game, at least for me. WoW is very successful and i think it sucks.
I have hopes for AOC but it is scaring me a bit. They are trying some new things and if they deliver what they say then it should be pretty cool. But they are also saying that leveling will be like WoW. So you will reach max in a couple months then just Guild vs Guild PVP, which is cool if you are huge into PVP, but i like PVE more then PVP and there i think it will get very boring very fast.
Given the amount of Content needed to make a MMO I think they are "Moving" quite fast. Like FPS games are even slower. The basic idea is already set the only new thing in these games is the Graphics and Physics. This is the same with Sports Games. Just upgrade the Graphics and Physics Boom their NFL 2009 or Call of Duty 4.
IMO the reason why alot of the MMOs fail is becuase all the content is done in Closed Beta and very little Open Beta. If more games where to say have an Open beta for a 6months or to 1 year. They can learn more from the player and make a better game. When you have a Developer making a game with a short Close/Open Beta you dont learn much from the inside. Of course of you're a Developer you have a mind set of how game will play out AKA Good on Paper bad in Bad in Design.
Developer always seem to think like this. Okay here is the Content deal with it. While the player is like WTF this isnt going to work. Im not sure how many player are in War or AOC Closed beta but how many of the players playing really give Constructive Feedback?
All MMO's have grinds. If you don't like to Grind then MMO's are not for you.
Personally, I was never a fan of long, tedious level grinds. Always seemed like the cheap way to stretch the game out. However, I don't feel like current MMO's have evolved very far beyond this. Basically, they just removed the level grind and replaced it with a much faster quest train. In the end, they never really added any substance to the formula.
Let me explain. With current MMOs it's content>>>>>>>>>>features. Players complaining that the game is too thin? No problem we'll just slap together some more content, i.e. we'll add a bunch of static quests and kill tasks. Thats it. Thats supposed to be content.
... Back in the good old days it took you at least a year to reach max level and many it took numerous years. Why do games have to be a rush to max level (ala WoW) this is a self defeating policy. In my opinion a game can and should take years to max out, as long as the content is good throughout all levels i really dont care how long it takes me to level. I never reached max level in EQ, there was always an expansion that raised the max before i got there, and i had tons of fun for 3+ years, and a little fun for about a year longer. Games should be about content, not the race to max level. ...
Problem is, as long as there are gamehoppers and people who just want to show-off with endgameitems, they will develop such games.
I hope, that Spellborn will become such a game, as there is no real itemgrind. They focus on their new fightsystem and on the world itself with all the shards.
It also got delayed from last year, so I hope its polished now.
Funny, I have found that the reasons that most MMORPGs fail is that they try to be too much like Nintendo.
MMORPGs should never ever try to be like a silly console game. Why would you want to lock yourself in to a console? Sitting in my tower is a quad chip, GPU, RAM et al that are a hundred times as powerful as any silly toy console. Companies need to start using those high end parts to make complex games and let the low end games stay in the little toy boxes attached to people's TVs
Oh yeah... also if you want to fix MMORPGs stop worrying about balance! Make COMPLEX characters that have bad options and bad combinations of powers. Some people WANT freedom, you stupid communist devs. I remember when Asheron's Call (The best game ever to be made) had really really bad skill choices available... you know, like a Mage that didn't have War magic until 26th level!! OHH yeah! that's right taking that horrid option might just be good for some people.
Give me freedom or give me pong!
Stop worrying about 'end-game' and all that crap. If the tiny weeny little group that likes to gank each other on PvP servers are complaining about balance and raids... let them! Stop pandering to such groups that have such tiny weenies. I mean are so tiny weenie...
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
everyone is waiting so hard vor AOC and WAR to come out... but what if they both suck... there is absolutly no alternative we are screwed.... MMO genre will be dead for the next time...
You are talking like mmo´s is the only thing in life. Take a break, its just a game anyway, cheer up, There is plenty of good mmorpg out there, sadly they maybe dont appear to you, but I pretty sure that other ppl are happy with they are playing.
He had a very valid point. This isn't a discussion about "mmo's is the only thing in life", it's about the past 13-15 years of MMO's dating back to NWN on AOL, Meridian 59, and UO to start the genre.
With the exception of EQ1, SWG (pre-cu), and WoW..almost every other game has blown and blown bad. He talked about how everyone is waiting for AoC and WAR, but if those suck then we're screwed and waiting another 2+ years for something else.
As far as AoC and WAR being the "next big mmo"....don't get your hopes up, and don't be surprised if they are complete let-downs.
Has it really been 13-15 years?
I didn't do UO but saw people playing that in college so I am not certain of how long that was around before Asheron's Call really made MMORPGs a paradigm shift in gaming in 1999. But I agree with the OP, the market is tough on these companies. Then again, we are tougher on these companies than they are on themselves. Most of those games on that list are VERY happy with the income they are getting from their products,
There are the really big winners in the genre, Lineage-Lineage2, EQ/EQ2, WoW et al. but almost every one of the games on that list I will bet is making their companies a nice tidy profit. If they were haemorrhaging money they would be shut down, period.
As for the new games it is sad to see very popular ideas like Star Trek collapse. Most of the new games I see actually will offer nothing really interesting. They seem to be pandering to the Nintendo TV-toy crowd and heading backward in complexity rather than forward to more depth in gaming. After all, nearly ten years ago AC offered over a hundred different spells for mages in (at the time) six levels of difficulty all with individual spell casting ingredients that you had to know!!, stat based powers and skills!!, over 7 different damage types to protect against or cause damage with!!, actual solid mobs that could hold you against walls, trap you, drag you down hallways and slaughter you!!... and today we get simplistic shallow characters and a few different ways to swing a sword in AoC?
I have pre-ordered my copy of Conan, but I have a sinking feeling it is going to stink. AoC was dumbed down to be able to be played on TV-toy boxes with joysticks. What that means to me is that it has multiple ways to swing a sword on a joystick and not much else.
MMORPGs are going to be around for a long time, they will continue in one form or another until long after everyone reading this is dead. But I fear we are in a Dark Ages for gaming. The ones out today in many ways are not as good as the ones I played in the late 90's. They are and apparently will be for quite some time, pandering to the lowest common denominator in gaming - The Nintendo Crowd.
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
Look at how many games are on that list. And the game list on this website is even longer. The market is saturated I would say, so a lot of these games are bound to die.
MMORPGs are deeper more complex than any other computer game you can play. The reason is because players want them to have as many facets as possible to keep them interested. That means more programming. That means more money. Unfortunately, I'm afraid they are becoming too high risk for companies to take a chance on. And those that do are likely to follow the formula that has worked in the past. Thus innovation is bound to be slow (see I knew I could make my post come back to the subject eventually).
Your definition of dead is a obviously a lot different to the rest of the worlds.
Actually, so is your definition of 'almost dead' and 'low pop', considering a lot of the games you assigned this tag have subscriptions #'s in the hundreds of thousands (LOTRO, FFX1, L2 etc).
But with that said, I do agree the MMO genre isn't going anywhere fast [at least in terms of new features, player freedom, immersion etc], in fact, I think it's gone down hill since the days of UO & AC1 (which mind you, are both still ALIVE), with SWG being the only exception IMO - but was also ruined by WOW'itis.
developing an FPS may take lotta time too but there are hundreds of companies making them. even if u play a FPS for only some month max u should never have had problems getting new stuff...
i quitted MMORPGS some month ago and played FPS since then and never had the problem not to find a game to play.
COD4, TF2, ET QW just an example what i played since then and there were/are many more but i didnt have the time and need to play more.
Comments
ok lets extract all games which are older then 5 years doesnt make the games bad just old what means most prob we already played and beaten em.
and all games which are dead/almost dead and all games which are stupid f2p asia grinders which i personally dont count as serious mmorpgs
we have left.
DDO
EVE
EQ2
GW
Lotro
POTBS
TR
Vanguard
WoW.
thats all the MMO market has to offer... some are of bad quality some we most prob already played.
so yes beeing MMORPG fan is pain. if u have game u like stay with it as long u can... there is not much else.
FF11 ok i forgot (very old tho)
L2 its almost 5 years now and NA servers are very dead... rest are 80% bots
TR already have it in list
COH COH and COV are 1 game and in EU the servers are dead!!! just the trial players make it
seem full but try getting a party 30+
Actually, I'd prefer it. Prefer that bandwidth isn't wasted on streaming content, and all of the mess of cheats and riftraft to play MMOs, but still have the ability to do 3 things -- have a leaderboard; trade; and chit chat.
Major problem I have with MMOs is that the communities tend to be either kiddish with very thin skins; or think they can be sociopaths and hound players to no end. Games are suppose to be fun and represent your playing style, not be kicked around if you're a different type of player. To me interaction would be for "business", the fun part is doing my own thing without all of the censorship (I don't need no freaking GMs to play a game FCS!) and kiddie drama online life entails.
In short, I want interaction when I may want and need it, not required to play. Sometimes just being immersed in a game without the "U R pwnz!!" crap is a blessing in itself!
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
FF11- came out na 4 years ago....E2 is 4 years and old and WoW is almost 4....so its not that old
L2 -has allot of bots..but the eu servers are doing well..they are even opening a new one next month
TR-OOPS HEHE
COH- NA server are doing well though....most eu players play in the na servers....DDO has dead eu servers aswell
I think something may be wrong with the players that play this genre today if anything according to the OP's post. If you only want your online massive world to last one year then yes MMORPGs are not coming out fast enough for you. These games should be worlds though like EQ that people enjoy for many years. They should take a long time to adventure to the end and have a lot of depth.
I think games in this genre keep getting more shallow and easier every time one comes out. They only feel like games now rather than living breathing worlds. I guess that is what some people want is just some more shallow garbage that you finish in a month and then on to the next. I feel that is the problem. We are going to end up with the garbage games that console games have become, less thinking .. more flashy fast graphics with big booms.
They are also the most involved, broadest, deepest, and time-consuming games on the market.
There is a direct correlation.
Personally, I'm also holding out for the "living, breathing world" MMO. I know the genre will never head in this direction, but if we get just one quality MMO that fits this bill i'll be satisfied.
Nah...I'll not be bored...I'll still be playing Vanguard.
I share the OP's view. However, games are generally very slow changing, its a high risk to make something really different, and a big investment. Game developers are the most conservative of the creative people. While movies, novels and other genres evolved over time, games still follow decades old habits and plot stereotypes.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
both games are the same age
EQ2 fan sites
qombi is correct again.
MMOs get boring fast now because you are able to reach max level in a couple months. And of course a couple months is not enough time for the devs to have produced more content let alone an expansion so you are stuck doing the same thing day in and day out until new content comes out. Of course they are boring.
Back in the good old days it took you at least a year to reach max level and many it took numerous years. Why do games have to be a rush to max level (ala WoW) this is a self defeating policy.
In my opinion a game can and should take years to max out, as long as the content is good throughout all levels i really dont care how long it takes me to level. I never reached max level in EQ, there was always an expansion that raised the max before i got there, and i had tons of fun for 3+ years, and a little fun for about a year longer.
Games should be about content, not the race to max level.
But ohh, the horrible grind of the games of yore. The grind is much better now that you follow the bouncing ? from kill quest to kill quest until you reach max level.
qombi, are you playing anything now? We seem to have the same taste in games and i cant find anything worth playing.
Say all you want but this is the year MMOs become a two horse or three horse race.
I'm more then willing to bet money on AoC,Aion or WAR being successful games.
I have hopes for AOC but it is scaring me a bit. They are trying some new things and if they deliver what they say then it should be pretty cool. But they are also saying that leveling will be like WoW. So you will reach max in a couple months then just Guild vs Guild PVP, which is cool if you are huge into PVP, but i like PVE more then PVP and there i think it will get very boring very fast.
if i'm not mistaken AoC and WAR are not the only games that is succesful in the industry.. there is LineageII, Cabal, Cronous, and many more..
Given the amount of Content needed to make a MMO I think they are "Moving" quite fast. Like FPS games are even slower. The basic idea is already set the only new thing in these games is the Graphics and Physics. This is the same with Sports Games. Just upgrade the Graphics and Physics Boom their NFL 2009 or Call of Duty 4.
IMO the reason why alot of the MMOs fail is becuase all the content is done in Closed Beta and very little Open Beta. If more games where to say have an Open beta for a 6months or to 1 year. They can learn more from the player and make a better game. When you have a Developer making a game with a short Close/Open Beta you dont learn much from the inside. Of course of you're a Developer you have a mind set of how game will play out AKA Good on Paper bad in Bad in Design.
Developer always seem to think like this. Okay here is the Content deal with it. While the player is like WTF this isnt going to work. Im not sure how many player are in War or AOC Closed beta but how many of the players playing really give Constructive Feedback?
All MMO's have grinds. If you don't like to Grind then MMO's are not for you.
Personally, I was never a fan of long, tedious level grinds. Always seemed like the cheap way to stretch the game out. However, I don't feel like current MMO's have evolved very far beyond this. Basically, they just removed the level grind and replaced it with a much faster quest train. In the end, they never really added any substance to the formula.
Let me explain. With current MMOs it's content>>>>>>>>>>features. Players complaining that the game is too thin? No problem we'll just slap together some more content, i.e. we'll add a bunch of static quests and kill tasks. Thats it. Thats supposed to be content.
I hope, that Spellborn will become such a game, as there is no real itemgrind. They focus on their new fightsystem and on the world itself with all the shards.
It also got delayed from last year, so I hope its polished now.
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
where the hell are the big companies??? why do they neglect this genre so much. MMORPGS are mostly made from small indi companies.
where is bioware, lucasart , bethesda piranya bytes and many many more...
why is MMORPGs so neglected? there should be 10times more games out as there are now.
Funny, I have found that the reasons that most MMORPGs fail is that they try to be too much like Nintendo.
MMORPGs should never ever try to be like a silly console game. Why would you want to lock yourself in to a console? Sitting in my tower is a quad chip, GPU, RAM et al that are a hundred times as powerful as any silly toy console. Companies need to start using those high end parts to make complex games and let the low end games stay in the little toy boxes attached to people's TVs
Oh yeah... also if you want to fix MMORPGs stop worrying about balance! Make COMPLEX characters that have bad options and bad combinations of powers. Some people WANT freedom, you stupid communist devs. I remember when Asheron's Call (The best game ever to be made) had really really bad skill choices available... you know, like a Mage that didn't have War magic until 26th level!! OHH yeah! that's right taking that horrid option might just be good for some people.
Give me freedom or give me pong!
Stop worrying about 'end-game' and all that crap. If the tiny weeny little group that likes to gank each other on PvP servers are complaining about balance and raids... let them! Stop pandering to such groups that have such tiny weenies. I mean are so tiny weenie...
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
You are talking like mmo´s is the only thing in life. Take a break, its just a game anyway, cheer up, There is plenty of good mmorpg out there, sadly they maybe dont appear to you, but I pretty sure that other ppl are happy with they are playing.He had a very valid point. This isn't a discussion about "mmo's is the only thing in life", it's about the past 13-15 years of MMO's dating back to NWN on AOL, Meridian 59, and UO to start the genre.
With the exception of EQ1, SWG (pre-cu), and WoW..almost every other game has blown and blown bad. He talked about how everyone is waiting for AoC and WAR, but if those suck then we're screwed and waiting another 2+ years for something else.
As far as AoC and WAR being the "next big mmo"....don't get your hopes up, and don't be surprised if they are complete let-downs.
Has it really been 13-15 years?
I didn't do UO but saw people playing that in college so I am not certain of how long that was around before Asheron's Call really made MMORPGs a paradigm shift in gaming in 1999. But I agree with the OP, the market is tough on these companies. Then again, we are tougher on these companies than they are on themselves. Most of those games on that list are VERY happy with the income they are getting from their products,
There are the really big winners in the genre, Lineage-Lineage2, EQ/EQ2, WoW et al. but almost every one of the games on that list I will bet is making their companies a nice tidy profit. If they were haemorrhaging money they would be shut down, period.
As for the new games it is sad to see very popular ideas like Star Trek collapse. Most of the new games I see actually will offer nothing really interesting. They seem to be pandering to the Nintendo TV-toy crowd and heading backward in complexity rather than forward to more depth in gaming. After all, nearly ten years ago AC offered over a hundred different spells for mages in (at the time) six levels of difficulty all with individual spell casting ingredients that you had to know!!, stat based powers and skills!!, over 7 different damage types to protect against or cause damage with!!, actual solid mobs that could hold you against walls, trap you, drag you down hallways and slaughter you!!... and today we get simplistic shallow characters and a few different ways to swing a sword in AoC?
I have pre-ordered my copy of Conan, but I have a sinking feeling it is going to stink. AoC was dumbed down to be able to be played on TV-toy boxes with joysticks. What that means to me is that it has multiple ways to swing a sword on a joystick and not much else.
MMORPGs are going to be around for a long time, they will continue in one form or another until long after everyone reading this is dead. But I fear we are in a Dark Ages for gaming. The ones out today in many ways are not as good as the ones I played in the late 90's. They are and apparently will be for quite some time, pandering to the lowest common denominator in gaming - The Nintendo Crowd.
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
MMORPGs are deeper more complex than any other computer game you can play. The reason is because players want them to have as many facets as possible to keep them interested. That means more programming. That means more money. Unfortunately, I'm afraid they are becoming too high risk for companies to take a chance on. And those that do are likely to follow the formula that has worked in the past. Thus innovation is bound to be slow (see I knew I could make my post come back to the subject eventually).
Your definition of dead is a obviously a lot different to the rest of the worlds.
Actually, so is your definition of 'almost dead' and 'low pop', considering a lot of the games you assigned this tag have subscriptions #'s in the hundreds of thousands (LOTRO, FFX1, L2 etc).
But with that said, I do agree the MMO genre isn't going anywhere fast [at least in terms of new features, player freedom, immersion etc], in fact, I think it's gone down hill since the days of UO & AC1 (which mind you, are both still ALIVE), with SWG being the only exception IMO - but was also ruined by WOW'itis.
FPS is slower moving than MMO...
developing an FPS may take lotta time too but there are hundreds of companies making them. even if u play a FPS for only some month max u should never have had problems getting new stuff...
i quitted MMORPGS some month ago and played FPS since then and never had the problem not to find a game to play.
COD4, TF2, ET QW just an example what i played since then and there were/are many more but i didnt have the time and need to play more.