You once said that a majority of mmorpg players agreed with you. If not on forums, then where? Your only complaint to my poll, that clearly showed you as the only supportor of your cause, was that it was biased. Now this new poll pretty much shows the same thing, and you're backtracking by saying the forums don't represent all mmorpg players? In our pages and pages of arguments, i have yet to find a single person that agrees with you completely. One person (most likely you) voted for no banning in any case. The other 16 so far have ok'd banning as a form of punishment. You are not a dev, nor do you know all of them. If all mmorpg devs have ulterior motives, then how do you explain Richard Garriot, who despite having the ability to use his reputation to gain easy money... intead risks everything by creating Tabula Rasa, an extremely underhyped game based on unproven game design? Just another way to make money? I don't think so. Many of the great game devs started out making games not because they dreamed of being millionaires, but because they just loved games. You act like you totally understand everything about a group of people, but you really, really don't. You're the naive one here, if you think your rebellious sage act is working. And one last thing... this was stated before as well.... a MMORPG is like a nightclub. They are property owned by individual(s) who can ban you from the premises for any number of reasons. It doesn't matter if you paid money to get in. And it may not always be fair or justified... but too bad. If you want to play, but are unwilling to accept the possible punishments for law-breaking then you are free to boycott that game all you want. The poll shows that banning is an acceptable punishment. And the devs are the only logical people to wield that power.
I said that the forums do not represent mmorpg players accurately back in the last thread. I said that people who play the game for fun and competition and are good, mature competitors A) Usually play the games rather than post on the forums have in general agreed with my opinions on exploiting C) When an exploit is used against them they simply adapt and find a way to beat the person anyways, the same as they would with any strategy.
I also said that an unrepresentitive portion of the people on the forums A) probably are not good competitors, and are on the forums because they usually lose in pvp and PVe gets boring so they are here to socialize with other gamers are probably not good in pvp BECAUSE they are not mature competitors and would stick to any excuse they could find rather than accept defeat and learn from it C) Contrive naive morality systems that serve their own selfish desires and don't make much sense.
THe basic idea however of why I think more people agree with me in general is not that complicated. People don't like to be banned and lose their money. If your going to do that you damn well better have a good reason for it if you still want peopel to play your game. The devs excuse for this is very poorly reasoned. Take people off the street before they have been brainwashed by the market up to this point, and place me next to some dev trying to explain why its ok for them to ban their paying customers and the person is just going to forget about playing mmorpgs until a game appears that isn't like that.
For all you know the reason why more people don't play mmorpgs is because the companies treat their customers like they are life rejects who they can order around all they want. Creating a game with a more intelligent idealology could make customers that would never have played before.
I love your misinterpretation of my poll. Almost half of the voters have declared that exploiting policy as it is now is unacceptable. I am the only one so far that thinks a company should not do it at all because they can simply fix or prevent the problems rather than specifically notate them on the website. Do you think those people that say exploiting needs to be more clearly defined are going to complain there is no banning policy if a game comes that never has exploits to begin with? I don't think so. The difference between the 2 no choices is just weather or not its possible to prevent exploits enough that they are not a problem, and people vote no because what they have seen so far is that every game has them. I vote yes a game can be created without exploits because I know why exploits have been in games so far and that they can be stopped completely.
What are you talking about all mmorpg devs having ulterior motives? Obviously they all have motives pertaining to their own happiness if that is what you are (very poorly) trying to interpret from my own post. The dev you mentioned obviously wants to create what he thinks is the best game so that he can feel good about himself. What do you think? That he experiences life from the point of view of every person who plays his game and monitors what makes all those people happiest from their points of view? No... He might try and imagine or reason this so he can better know how to do it so that he can make HIMSELF happy at his accomplishment.
Its not really that complicated. Exploit policy is not justified unless every game developer was some kind of divinely objective being that would never make an exploit law just because they think it would help them get more money, or because THEY THINK it would make a better game when in the grand scheme of things it actually would not. This is obviously not the case. You cannot prove that a developer has no desires other than to create the best game any more than you can prove that he was an omniscient being capable of knowing for sure the overall effect of any potential exploit in the game was.
Unjust laws are sometimes necessary in real world emergency situations because they prevent some greater problem, and in this sense they are temporarily just. However to then refuse to consider a better way of preventing the greater problem to replace the laws with is then wrong. In mmorpgs there is no great evil worthy of allowing exploit laws. It is simply the developers investment that is at risk, and they can always plan better before the game starts to prevent the exploits. So not only is it immoral to refuse to consider alternatives to exploit laws now, it was never justified to begin with because there were no emergency situations that could not have been prevented from which some greater evil rise.
Oh boy another unconnected metaphor. Nightclubs have a need to maintain peace. If a nightclub owner were to kick someone out of the club for an unjust reason it is wrong and the person would not return plus the nightclub could get a bad reputation and many people would stop coming. Lawsuits can be filed for this type of thing after the fact as well. Just like any other buisness. Yeah for the immediate moment a resturaunt can make you leave because its needed to prevent violence to have both parties removed from each other and its their property. But if there was a signifigant transaction or emotional damage involved a civil court can still come in after the fact an resolve the dispute, and if the resturaunt was in the wrong then they can gain a bad rep and people stop going there. Stop looking at the world from the point of view of a helpless mindless sheep that is subject to whatever whims "those people who are smart enough to run buisnesses" decide to inflict on you, and start thinking from the point of view as a buisness owner with better ideas or a customer who might enjoy a buisness run on better ideas.
You recognize that giving other players the ability to ban would not be a smart thing to do, yet you cannot see how the developers are a not much better choice. The only difference is that other players might use banning to attack each other over pvp whereas developers might use it to attack people who think of things they didn't.
Originally posted by Coldmeat
I forgot the sarcasm tags again, I guess. It was directed at Krim, so don't go getting all in a huff. I was saying that he should be gratefull that getting banned is all the devs would do, unlike someone such as myself would do to him for exploiting. In otherwords, I was effectively agreeing with you. -------
People like you never get anywhere in the world? Are you going to go try and fight someone every time you lose something or cannot adjust to the world. If you tried that youd be nothing more than a dead body lying in a gutter in no time. And getting angry and crying sploiter after everyone who beats you in pvp is not much different than this....
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I for one am so freaking happy that Kriminal is back with another logical argument post, cause it's just so damn entertaining. Anyone that wants a great laugh, and has 6 hours to kill, do a search fo the logical argument PVP thread that Kriminal posted a few months back. Be warned though the thread is about 75 pages long or something.
OK now for my opinion...I'll keep it real short. Kriminal is the type of guy that is the banker in a game of Monopoly, so he can steal a few $500 bills. He's the guy in Counter-Strike that uses wall hacks. He's the guy you play poker with that tries to sneak a peek at your cards. The best part about him is that when he is caught stealing the $500 bills, using wall hacks, or looking at your cards, he will justify his behavior with a "logical argument". True gamers play games the way they were meant to be played...they do not look for loop-holes within a game system in order to gain an unfair advantage...that is what criminals do...wait now I see where you got your name from...it's all clear now...my bad, proceed with your criminal self...Xaldor
Many games have items or magic which allow you to walk through walls. The only thing that makes these things seem out of place is the fact that they are not consistent with the developers design of the world. Its funny you should bring this up, because usually when something was considered an exploit and I was told to stop in Neocron, the reason I though it was obviously not an exploit (besides the fact that many of these things were so obvious they had to know it could be done) was that they were realistic. For example poking out behind cover to shoot mobs, careful mathematic analyzation of market items to see how them and tradeskills could be used to make money, having myself shot or beaten to toughen myself up (martial artists do this), placing artillery turrets on the roof of a building rather than on the ground, etc... but anyways.
Your experience in Neocron does not carry over to every single mmorpg ever made... which your argument suggests. Based on your descriptions, i wouldn't consider those exploits either. Have you even played any of the others? Also, getting shot generally isn't supposed to make you more resistant to being shot in the future. Thats why i like Face of Mankind's no skills no classes.
Moving to exploits which actually DO seem out of place for the world, well following what I have seen they simply need a viable explanation to explain why they can be done in the game and not in real life for me to take them seriously. Well obviously we have the explanation that they are part of computer games. THey have been in computer games since the dawn of time. Its kind of like something thats totally seperate from the game, it doesn't really even effect the roleplay any more than stopping to get something to eat when you are playing. Its not the same effect that say having a poor story behind your world has because the player knows its not part of the story. If you tried to use the same excuse for why a game has a poor story its like "ok I see why but now where do I go to get involved in a strong story" The bottom line is exploits do about the same amount of damage to roleplay as getting up to go to the bathroom during play, which is to say not much.
There's a major difference here. Going to the bathroom or getting something to eat is a choice you make, because there is a big line between the real world and the virtual world. But once i'm in the virtual world, i don't want to see obvious coding errors that have nothing to do with the game itself. (unless its part of the storyline like in .hack). There really is no logical explanation for item duping or being able to fire arrows through a solid wall at a mob, while the need to pee is a basic need that most gamers know is necessary. Games, like movies, require a suspension of disbelief. But there is a limit to how obviously stupid and fake it can get.
So, you're saying everyone here who disagrees with you is simply not a good, mature competitor? You also have no basis for assuming everyone who disagrees is naive, immature, or selfish... or even that we "usually lose in pvp and PVe gets boring so they are here to socialize with other gamers". Its always fun to see you make totally biased opinions while putting the word "Logical" in the thread title. Neocron has a tiny playerbase, that in no way represents the general mmorpg public, therefore you know nothing. Your examples, your logic, your supposed "general support" all comes from Neocron therefore your complaint about exploits remains specifically a Neocron issue. Once again i ask; have you played any mmorpgs other than Neocron? If not, then you are as biased as they come.
As for your poll, does every single game have the same exact exploiting policy? There may be some that need re-working, but in the end its unanimous (except for you) that banning IS acceptable in certain cases. Which is the whole point of this thread isn't it? My poll was biased while yours isn't? This issue essentially comes down to 2 choices, banning: yes or no? You have one absolute "no", and then like 4 or 5 varying and wordy degrees of "yes" (very tricky, including the 2 choices that start as "No, but.."), obviously meant to split up the votes of those who accept banning as a punishment. Your poll is a joke that backfired.
A game with absolutely no exploits? A noble pursuit, but i'd like to see you give it a try. You know how to program? Try making a mmorpg, hotshot. You obviously have no grasp of the time and effort these things require. And your whole thing about explaining why devs are actually seeking self-satisfaction is pointless... because EVERY single act we do can be justified as simply pursuing self satisfaction. Your arguing this moot point is nothing more than self-satisfaction either, since you were never banned for exploiting... so it doesn't directly effect you. The fact that there is a pursuit of self-satisfaction doesn't prove that most devs just want money, rather than a fun, balanced game. Did it ever occur to you that THEIR satisfaction might come from OUR satisfaction? In that case, the well being of the gamers and game world is in their best interest, because they will not gain their precious self-satisfaction unless a majority of gamers are happy. Its the same with most artists, directors, or musicians; they care that people enjoy their product or performance.
I'll avoid getting too deep into your other incredibly broad generalizations on unjust laws by saying this: banning is not unjust when the crime is serious enough. You're saying that no exploit is serious enough to warrant banning, no matter the number of warnings and fair time to stop is given. You never really addressed what was so bad about banning someone who IGNORED multiple warnings.
The nightclubs have a need to maintain peace, but a mmorpg doesn't? I don't mean peace as in PvE, everyone being friends, i mean maintaining a stable environment for patrons to enjoy. Nightclubs generally don't throw out more people then they let stay... so reputation hit isn't as bad as you make it sound. You don't need to get into specifics of legality and crap, the point was that the owner of a property has the right to tell you to get the hell off and stay off. If there is a clear exploit policy that says "If you do this, and continue doing it after X warnings" expressed, then banning is fine.
Its obvious that you don't even respect the members of this forum enough to comprehend other arguments, since we're just a bunch of naive, helpless sheep compared to you, oh masterful one. Therefore i'm done here, and theres no point in debating anything with a mule-headed ass. Coldmeat was remarkably accurate, you are a troll. Your perception of devs is a bitch-slap to their face and work, especially considering the pitifully small amount of experience you have in mmorpgs anyway.
Originally posted by Xaldor I for one am so freaking happy that Kriminal is back with another logical argument post, cause it's just so damn entertaining. Anyone that wants a great laugh, and has 6 hours to kill, do a search fo the logical argument PVP thread that Kriminal posted a few months back. Be warned though the thread is about 75 pages long or something. OK now for my opinion...I'll keep it real short. Kriminal is the type of guy that is the banker in a game of Monopoly, so he can steal a few $500 bills. He's the guy in Counter-Strike that uses wall hacks. He's the guy you play poker with that tries to sneak a peek at your cards. The best part about him is that when he is caught stealing the $500 bills, using wall hacks, or looking at your cards, he will justify his behavior with a "logical argument". True gamers play games the way they were meant to be played...they do not look for loop-holes within a game system in order to gain an unfair advantage...that is what criminals do...wait now I see where you got your name from...it's all clear now...my bad, proceed with your criminal self...Xaldor
Your entire post could have just been replaced with "I don't like Krim, I want other people to not like him too!!11"
I actually don't do any of the things you listed but thanks for playing. "True gamers" is something you would know nothing about. Whats the difference between a loophole and a new strategy that allows you to win a game? None.
Originally posted by Genjing
Your experience in Neocron does not carry over to every single mmorpg ever made... which your argument suggests. Based on your descriptions, i wouldn't consider those exploits either. Have you even played any of the others? Also, getting shot generally isn't supposed to make you more resistant to being shot in the future. Thats why i like Face of Mankind's no skills no classes. There's a major difference here. Going to the bathroom or getting something to eat is a choice you make, because there is a big line between the real world and the virtual world. But once i'm in the virtual world, i don't want to see obvious coding errors that have nothing to do with the game itself. (unless its part of the storyline like in .hack). There really is no logical explanation for item duping or being able to fire arrows through a solid wall at a mob, while the need to pee is a basic need that most gamers know is necessary. Games, like movies, require a suspension of disbelief. But there is a limit to how obviously stupid and fake it can get.
Yes it does carry over to every other mmorpg ever made. It is in fact the experience that some develoepers are more fair that does not carry over to other games. You see that is why a logical argument is made, it is obvious that people have different experiences. The fact that what happened to me CAN happen in ANY mmorpg because of the vagueness of the rules means that my experience does effect other games. One day you can just be playing some other game and be banned completely out of the blue and the company would not have broken their posted exploit policy because it is so vague, and knowledge of this effects the game experience in any of these games.
This is the concept behind a logical argument, it overrides experience by showing what is possible by deductive reasoning. It is not my fault that most people do not realize that deductive arguments override experience that says it has not happened yet.
I have tried other games. I believe in AO I was threatened once because I got stuck in the wall by accident and when I paged an "ark" for help he threatened to get me in trouble if I was exploiting. I was outraged and asked him why they don't just fix the damn bug rather than yell at customers who probably don't enjoy being stuck in walls to begin with.
Yeah I just pointed out myself that things need an explanation in order for them to continue being fun. The explanation for exploits is that you are playing a computer game. When you go to the bathroom you realize "Ok Im going to stop playing the game and go use the bathroom" When there is a bug in the game that really does seem out of place, you say "Ok I am going to stop playing the game to do this" Just like if you say buy an advanced account from UO you know you are starting ahead because you paid real world money to, that doesn't stop you from being drawn into your role once you are back in the game.
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Your entire post could have just been replaced with "I don't like Krim, I want other people to not like him too!!11"
I actually don't do any of the things you listed but thanks for playing. "True gamers" is something you would know nothing about. Whats the difference between a loophole and a new strategy that allows you to win a game? None.
And your orignial thread should be titled...I like to cheat when playing games...why do people hate me?...Xaldor
Krim, from all the crap I've read in your posts, I'm glad you got banned, and I wouldn't care if you got banned from every mmorpg you ever played cause you sir, are stupid.
With your logic its like saying people that wallhack in CS are legit, and that the CS devs should just find a way to prevent the wallhacking. No one is cheating, its the devs fault! BS.
You fill your posts with crap that has nothing to do with the issue to try to make yourself look smart or something. You are like that guy in Good Will Hunting, that memorizes crap out of a book and spits it back out at bars only to get owned by the people that know what they are talking about.
As of right now I'm sure about 99% of the people that actually read your long posts think you are just a little crybaby that got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. If you stop posting now, you might actually get that other 1% to respect you...but I doubt it.
Quit your whining
___________________ Killer 73% Explorer 60% Achiever 46% Socializer 20%
___________________ Killer 73% Explorer 60% Achiever 46% Socializer 20%
Broad Generalizations, denigrating the majority of posters on this forum by calling them niave and such is what Krim is all about. Some of us have had long discussions with krim. Some of us have read through litterally over 100 of his quote and babble posts and have tried to reason with him.
He just returns to the same old argument of stating that everyone agrees with him if they are good gamers and if you dont agree then you aren't a good gamer. If worst comes to worst he posts in a fit of "I'm right your wrong" because I have debated more than you and I'm oh so much more intelligent than you are.
I'm sure he will quote and post this and then reply with a few paragraphs. But seriously krim. I want you to stop and take a look at all the posts you have made even if just in this thread. Realise how you come off to the majority of folks who in all likelyhood have played far longer and have a deeper understanding of MMORPGS than you ever will.
Realse how narrowminded and OMG how niave your view is. You are in no way open to having your ideals rebuked as you have shown time and again. You got caught multiple times exploiting and you have come here to soothe your bruised ego. You earlier posted that the folks posting on this board are bad gamers. Well I'd like to welcome you to the bad gamers club then. Nope you didn't use those exact words but overall thats the jist of it.
I'm now done with such a whiny weakminded waste of DNA such as yourself. Your entire argument consisted of you basically saying that you got caught multiple times exploiting and you feel that banning is wrong,and If you dont agree with me then you are a bad gamer. So Krim when you can PROVE to us that exploiting is NOT bad for MMORPGS and not prove to us what an elitest you are please feel free to post. I'm tired of you acting like a rich spoiled little child who feels he is better than everyone because he is rich. There are undoubtedly MANY MANY posters here who know about the inner workings of MMORPGS than you ever will. You are in our eyes a willful upstart child who needs to be sent for a time out but is to stubborn to understand this.
However in reality any exploit bad or not can be removed by the developers, it only depends on how hard they want to work or how much money they want to spend on QA. When you combine the facts that A) The developer put the exploit bug there to begin with due to their own negligence, The bug was not caught by QA due to the companies own neglagence C) the company is the only party capable of fixing the bug, then to me it is obvious that the players should not be burdened with the responisibility of monitoring actions for exploits. The devs should simply work harder to remove them from the game. I really don't care what some schmo at a bad mmorpg company decides is an exploit or not. Yes its his game, but Im not going to play if hes going to make a contract that says I give him my money so he can get off bullying players around. Stop thinking as a helpless player, pretend you are either a developer who is deciding on weather or not to have a antiexploit policy, or a player who refuses to play games with idealogies you don't agree with. In both of these cases it is quite prudent to consider these issues. Your attitude towards the one exploiter is actually quite perfect in representing all the reasoning errors used by people to support antiexploit policy. He found the exploit by exploring. Many strategies are found by accident just as well. They are not considered cheating just because they are found by accident, and what you mentioned is quite obviously a design oversight not some sort of cryptic "coding flaw". Perhaps true morality dictates that if you are dumb enough to go where these people can kill you then its your fault for not adjusting, and its the developers responsibility to worry about overall balance of the game by patching because only they have the resources to do so. No matter how you try to hide it, your motivation for lashing at "exploiters" is childish frustration at the fact that you died. Even if you are not one of the people this person killed (or if you would just lie to hide the fact), your anger still comes from a similar situation you were in. Your inabillity to deal with competitive situations is not justification for banning so called "exploiters". The whole story about the exploit had no legitimate argument in it, you simply thought to illicit sympathy for your feelings. Don't expect any from experienced competitors, because losing and adpating is just a part of the game. P.S. No I have never been banned for exploiting, I have been warned for doing things that obviously were not exploits and refuse to have anything to do with companies who take aggressive action against their paying customers (the sole reason for their existence) based on poorly reasoned and selfish arguments.
Damn your funny. My "lashing out" against exploiters... lol.. No in general I don't waste my time with them, this argument is just to funny, and there is no merit to your logic since you don't seem to actually have a clue what your talking about... First of all on a coding level, if an exploit occures due to a chain of events or actions they must examine the code and figure out which of these lines aare cause the exploit to become available. Then once they locate the cause they must find a way to eliminate the offending code without disrupting the effects that are suppose to occure. Sometimes it can be as simeple as 1 line edited, other times they might have to repaire every item invloved, and try to recode them to function as the were intended. Other times they miight not be repairable. As for my "inabillity to deal with competitive situations" as you put it... wow, does it hurt when you pul that crap out of your ass? I've one and lost plenty in MMO's and never comlained about it, hell most of the time I congratulate the people who beat me. But I gave you an exampe I witnessed and you describe that situation as "competitve"... Thats a farce, and no amount of your crippled logic could prove otherwise. In the scenario I listed, one person was outside of the pvp zone so they could not be attacked, the other was inside, and the exploiter was using his pets to attack leaving him in a position where he could not be attacked.... Thats not competative... But I'd love to hear your definition of "competitive", since you admit to using exploits and cheating in games. As for the "man" bullying you around, you poor baby... I feel just awful that someone told you not to do something and when you did it you got in shit... Damn that kind of hitler-esk villainy should not be permited!!!!
Now as for your biased crippled logic. You have told everyone here they are wrong, and that you are right... You've repeated yourself time and time again, yet at no point in time have you proven that using an exploit in game should be logically permited. Nor have you proven it's all the devs fault. And your sitting here preaching exastentialism to me saying sayng how I just can't accept losing (which you made up since you had absolutley no facts to base that on, punching more holes in your "logic"), but at the same time your the one who's here saying it's the devs fault, and the cry babies fault, and not your own for knowingly breaking the rules. Meanwhile EVERYONE here has said, IF THEY SAY IT'S NOT ALOUD AND YOU DO IT ANYWAYS IT'S YOUR OWN FAULT... yet you continue to say "logically it's there fault.... So far, you seem to being the only cry baby here.
You've proven nothing, all you've done is cried about how it's not your fault... This thread is old, and I rarely say this, but you sir are an absolute close minded moron who chooses to believe only what he wants in order to justify his own petty behavior. Do us all a favor and shut the hell up.
Originally posted by Genjing So, you're saying everyone here who disagrees with you is simply not a good, mature competitor? You also have no basis for assuming everyone who disagrees is naive, immature, or selfish... or even that we "usually lose in pvp and PVe gets boring so they are here to socialize with other gamers". Its always fun to see you make totally biased opinions while putting the word "Logical" in the thread title. Neocron has a tiny playerbase, that in no way represents the general mmorpg public, therefore you know nothing. Your examples, your logic, your supposed "general support" all comes from Neocron therefore your complaint about exploits remains specifically a Neocron issue. Once again i ask; have you played any mmorpgs other than Neocron? If not, then you are as biased as they come.
As for your poll, does every single game have the same exact exploiting policy? There may be some that need re-working, but in the end its unanimous (except for you) that banning IS acceptable in certain cases. Which is the whole point of this thread isn't it? My poll was biased while yours isn't? This issue essentially comes down to 2 choices, banning: yes or no? You have one absolute "no", and then like 4 or 5 varying and wordy degrees of "yes" (very tricky, including the 2 choices that start as "No, but.."), obviously meant to split up the votes of those who accept banning as a punishment. Your poll is a joke that backfired. A game with absolutely no exploits? A noble pursuit, but i'd like to see you give it a try. You know how to program? Try making a mmorpg, hotshot. You obviously have no grasp of the time and effort these things require. And your whole thing about explaining why devs are actually seeking self-satisfaction is pointless... because EVERY single act we do can be justified as simply pursuing self satisfaction. Your arguing this moot point is nothing more than self-satisfaction either, since you were never banned for exploiting... so it doesn't directly effect you. The fact that there is a pursuit of self-satisfaction doesn't prove that most devs just want money, rather than a fun, balanced game. Did it ever occur to you that THEIR satisfaction might come from OUR satisfaction? In that case, the well being of the gamers and game world is in their best interest, because they will not gain their precious self-satisfaction unless a majority of gamers are happy. Its the same with most artists, directors, or musicians; they care that people enjoy their product or performance. I'll avoid getting too deep into your other incredibly broad generalizations on unjust laws by saying this: banning is not unjust when the crime is serious enough. You're saying that no exploit is serious enough to warrant banning, no matter the number of warnings and fair time to stop is given. You never really addressed what was so bad about banning someone who IGNORED multiple warnings. The nightclubs have a need to maintain peace, but a mmorpg doesn't? I don't mean peace as in PvE, everyone being friends, i mean maintaining a stable environment for patrons to enjoy. Nightclubs generally don't throw out more people then they let stay... so reputation hit isn't as bad as you make it sound. You don't need to get into specifics of legality and crap, the point was that the owner of a property has the right to tell you to get the hell off and stay off. If there is a clear exploit policy that says "If you do this, and continue doing it after X warnings" expressed, then banning is fine. Its obvious that you don't even respect the members of this forum enough to comprehend other arguments, since we're just a bunch of naive, helpless sheep compared to you, oh masterful one. Therefore i'm done here, and theres no point in debating anything with a mule-headed ass. Coldmeat was remarkably accurate, you are a troll. Your perception of devs is a bitch-slap to their face and work, especially considering the pitifully small amount of experience you have in mmorpgs anyway.
There are many reasons why people disagree about things. Obviously the fact that people disagree at all means that everyone cannot be right. I happen to know the point where people go wrong and make sure it doesn't happen to me. I have seen the people on this forum use reasoning error after reasoning error. I have seen them give completely different opinions but still each cite the fact that others disagree with me to support their own argument.
I have seen that the main reason that people here continue to defend anti-exploit policy is because they harbor anger towards people who have defeated them in MMORPGS. This is blatantly obvious by the things they say. For example there is no logical connection between griefers (a propaganda term used to describe pkers) and exploiters yet griefers have popped up many times in this thread. I think it is obvious that in order to claim exploits are wrong they have to be differentiated from normal strategies that people use in order to win PVP matches and/or gain the upper hand in an MMORPG. The people here have failed to do that, in fact many examples have been of people being defeated by things that weren't even exploits and it was obvious the person was just mad they weren't prepared for the strategy.
I never assumed everyone fell into the category of immature competitors. I just said its obvious that an unrepresentitive portion of forum posters do. I have already pointed out that Neocron was just one game that I have played which alerted me to the dangers of having such vague descriptions. It is still the vague descriptions that causes the problem not Neocron. I have played many different mmorpgs including AO, UO, EVE, Project Entropia, Endless Ages, Neocron, Dark Age of Camelot, Shadowbane, and Planetside.
I consider people who realize that the definition of exploits is way to vague to agree with me. The question is " are current exploit policies valid?". I have the view that banning is unacceptable in any case because the developers have the power to prevent and fix exploits instead therefore there is no greater evil to be stopped with such policies. It is the equivalent of blowing up a fat man blocking your cave exit even though you could just dig him out because you are too lazy to dig. If you don't get him out everyone might die but there is a way to do it which doesn't force you to hurt the fat man. Banning players is not as bad as blowing someone up, but it is an aggresive action and wrong.
However I still believe that it would be much better than it is now at least if exploits were limited to very specific actions that were clearly defined.
Yes I program, in fact much better than anyone else in any of my computer science classes. Debugging takes me usually 1/10th the time of other people because I think like a computer myself and know exactly where the bugs are going to be instantly. I know larger programs have many pieces that are given to different programmers and many things that effect other things. Id be willing to bet anything that that the methods and logic used for debugging mmorpgs are not the most intelligent or advanced. Some of them are probably downright stupid. Programming is one of those things where a slight increase in knowledge or developing a new method to speed communication provides an enormous difference in time required.
Yes Gen, I JUST SAID that even when a developer works towards creating a good game he is really working towards his own satisfaction, as opposed to experiencing all the happiness of those who play it. That doesn't mean we can depend on this, because some developers may think the best way to make themselves happy is just to create a game that sucks the money out of people. And besides that even if the developer wants to create the best game thats still not as good as if the developer experienced all the happiness of those who played it. For instance, the developer could only THINK he has created the best game when in fact many people become very frusterated playing it.
You need to learn the difference between a generalization and an observation. If I say since not all developers want to create the best game, A policy based on their intentions is not wise, that doesn't mean I am saying all developers are greedy.
Whats bad about banning someone who ignored multiple warnings? If I lock you in a cage and say Im going to shoot you if you don't write me a check for a million dollars, and you refuse to pay me after multiple warnings do you think I am justified in shooting you? Multiple warnings has nothing to do with it.
A nightclub is real, they ask people to leave because the alternative to this is having people get physically hurt. This is justified. If they ask the wrong person to leave or do it for no good reason it is not justified. Also if they have a simple alternative to kicking people out of the club it is not justified. For instance if the nightclub has a choice between having a bounded line out the door and just having people wander up to the door and possibly fight over who gets to go in next it is wrong of them to not have the line. This is different than exploits because it is still wrong of anyone who cuts in line or tries to fight to get ahead as well because getting to the door first is not a competition that people enter for fun. People expect to go there and get in in the order they got to the club. There is no such reason why exploiters have done something wrong, because everyone who plays an mmorpg expects to compete with other players and face undiscovered strategies.
Obviously asking people to leave that don't deserve it has more effect then just on the people who leave. If everyone in a club sees soemone get kicked out cause they are black, then half the people might leave in disgust. If everyone sees someone get kicked out for trying to start a fight, then they note that they shouldn't start a fight if they want to stay there. If in an mmorpg, you are threatened for doing perfectly fair things, or people are banned unjustly its going to ruin the game for players.
Oh btw arbitrarily claiming I have little experience in mmorpgs IS a generalization. Understand now?
How do you expect me to react to the people who post here? They constantly use vague, circular, invalid arguments completely driven by emotion and no matter how many times I point this out they continue to use them. When they can't think of anything to say they resort to insults and childish behavior. How long do you expect me to deal with this without showing some hint of sarcasm ?
Originally posted by Xaldor And your orignial thread should be titled...I like to cheat when playing games...why do people hate me?...Xaldor
Oh I get it so what when someone calls you out on lying and trying to decieve readers you just repeat the lies... thats intelligent.
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My old thread mysteriously disappeared, as well as my thread asking where it went, so...
Too bad it dissappeared. But there was not much too it. You're entire "argument" gets nullified because of one thing:
All MMORPGs are the property of the company/companies that make them. If you do not like the rules they make, that they set, then it is too bad for you. DAoC aka Mythic won a major, major, major, court case that set this in stone. To quote the folks at EQ "You are playing in our world now. " And they are right.
If you do not like the rules set by MMORPG companies, the only thing you can do is not pay them. Legally you stand no where. As Mythic challenged the law, and ended up supported by the law. Mythic's win supports the rules and regulations set by all other MMORPG companies for their games. All you can do if you are mad that you cannot exploit, is not play their game. Heck, make your own game in which you allow everyone to exploit as much as they want to heheh.
MMORPGs are a buisness. Exploiting leads to losing more customers, than gaining customers. Exploiting hurts buisness. That is the ultimate bottom line why it is not allowed. And the real, solid, definition of exploiting is:
- Playing a game in such a way that the way you're playing goes against the rules you yourself agree to abide by every single time you login to play and click "yes" or "agree" in the Terms and Conditions and License Agreement.
Originally posted by LilFunaho Krim, from all the crap I've read in your posts, I'm glad you got banned, and I wouldn't care if you got banned from every mmorpg you ever played cause you sir, are stupid. With your logic its like saying people that wallhack in CS are legit, and that the CS devs should just find a way to prevent the wallhacking. No one is cheating, its the devs fault! BS. You fill your posts with crap that has nothing to do with the issue to try to make yourself look smart or something. You are like that guy in Good Will Hunting, that memorizes crap out of a book and spits it back out at bars only to get owned by the people that know what they are talking about. As of right now I'm sure about 99% of the people that actually read your long posts think you are just a little crybaby that got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. If you stop posting now, you might actually get that other 1% to respect you...but I doubt it. Quit your whining
So what you think people are going to take your word for it that "KRIM R STUPID" lol
If everyone can wallhack, then whats the problem? If it unbalances the game its not the players fault, they didn't design the game... If you start a game with your friends and then say "Hey lets everyone agree not to wall hack even though the game lets you" AND everyone agrees to this, THEN and ONLY THEN is it cheating to wall hack.
Wee sheepish propaganda... How is it that I don't know what I am talking about huh? Is there an error in my reasoning youd like to point out? Oh you have no clue what your talking about huh? So why does anyone care what you think of my posts then? If you had something to say about an argument I made in my posts you would say it. The truth is you lack the capacity and you don't like me so you just spew mindless insults. Next.
Originally posted by Sithos Broad Generalizations, denigrating the majority of posters on this forum by calling them niave and such is what Krim is all about. Some of us have had long discussions with krim. Some of us have read through litterally over 100 of his quote and babble posts and have tried to reason with him. He just returns to the same old argument of stating that everyone agrees with him if they are good gamers and if you dont agree then you aren't a good gamer. If worst comes to worst he posts in a fit of "I'm right your wrong" because I have debated more than you and I'm oh so much more intelligent than you are. I'm sure he will quote and post this and then reply with a few paragraphs. But seriously krim. I want you to stop and take a look at all the posts you have made even if just in this thread. Realise how you come off to the majority of folks who in all likelyhood have played far longer and have a deeper understanding of MMORPGS than you ever will. Realse how narrowminded and OMG how niave your view is. You are in no way open to having your ideals rebuked as you have shown time and again. You got caught multiple times exploiting and you have come here to soothe your bruised ego. You earlier posted that the folks posting on this board are bad gamers. Well I'd like to welcome you to the bad gamers club then. Nope you didn't use those exact words but overall thats the jist of it. I'm now done with such a whiny weakminded waste of DNA such as yourself. Your entire argument consisted of you basically saying that you got caught multiple times exploiting and you feel that banning is wrong,and If you dont agree with me then you are a bad gamer. So Krim when you can PROVE to us that exploiting is NOT bad for MMORPGS and not prove to us what an elitest you are please feel free to post. I'm tired of you acting like a rich spoiled little child who feels he is better than everyone because he is rich. There are undoubtedly MANY MANY posters here who know about the inner workings of MMORPGS than you ever will. You are in our eyes a willful upstart child who needs to be sent for a time out but is to stubborn to understand this.
I think a better way to describe the past is that I have tried to reason with people like you. This is not reason : "Exploiting is bad because it is bad" "Griefer EXPLOITER PEOPLE DEZERVE TO DIE therefore I win the argument!!!" "GREIFING IS LIKE STEALING CANDY FROM BABIES!!! oh wait we were talking about exploiting... Uh EXPLOITING IS LIKE STEALING CANDY FROM BABIES!!! yeah thats it"
See I actually point out how peoples arguments are screwed up when I say things like the arguments against me have been flawed. Then with nothing else to say the other people just turn around and go "NUH UH URS ARE!!!" yet fail to point out what they are talking about.
Again you demonstrate your lack of reasoning ability by claiming I have exploited. I have never exploited I just realize how wrong the policies are. You justify banning exploiters because you imagine they are all griefers and bad people and when someone challenges your belief you are screwed because that person isn't necesarily an exploiter OR griefer. So what do you do? Lie to yourself and the forum and claim I am anyways.
It is obvious in the way that people are posting here that many are very immature. If they can't even admit when they are wrong about things or consider other ideas without resorting to insults, what are the chances they are going to be able to deal with losing in an mmorpg without resorting to claiming the other person cheated?
Actually I doubt anyone here understands people and therefore mmorpgs as well as I do, simply because of the lack of objectivity being shown on this board. You cannot figure out much about anything when your entire logic sytsem consists of "He does not suck up to me therefore anything he says is wrong" "He disagrees with me therefore anything he says is wrong and a bad person" etc..
I dont know where you got the rich part from, but your last paragraph pretty much describes you much better than it does me. Look back through the posts and see who has initiated all of the insults and childish behavior. It wasn't me.
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By Any Means Necessary is definately the motto you live by Kriminal....you should have been a politician instead of an avid gamer.
We all know that wall hacking, aim-bots, and the like were not INTENDED to be a part of a regular game of CS. Just because there is a way to get these does not mean it's part of legal gameplay...If I were to enter a CS tourney I can guarantee you that wall hacking or aim-bots would be unanimously frowned upon...and so do you...Xaldor
Originally posted by Sketch Damn your funny. My "lashing out" against exploiters... lol.. No in general I don't waste my time with them, this argument is just to funny, and there is no merit to your logic since you don't seem to actually have a clue what your talking about... First of all on a coding level, if an exploit occures due to a chain of events or actions they must examine the code and figure out which of these lines aare cause the exploit to become available. Then once they locate the cause they must find a way to eliminate the offending code without disrupting the effects that are suppose to occure. Sometimes it can be as simeple as 1 line edited, other times they might have to repaire every item invloved, and try to recode them to function as the were intended. Other times they miight not be repairable. As for my "inabillity to deal with competitive situations" as you put it... wow, does it hurt when you pul that crap out of your ass? I've one and lost plenty in MMO's and never comlained about it, hell most of the time I congratulate the people who beat me. But I gave you an exampe I witnessed and you describe that situation as "competitve"... Thats a farce, and no amount of your crippled logic could prove otherwise. In the scenario I listed, one person was outside of the pvp zone so they could not be attacked, the other was inside, and the exploiter was using his pets to attack leaving him in a position where he could not be attacked.... Thats not competative... But I'd love to hear your definition of "competitive", since you admit to using exploits and cheating in games. As for the "man" bullying you around, you poor baby... I feel just awful that someone told you not to do something and when you did it you got in shit... Damn that kind of hitler-esk villainy should not be permited!!!! Now as for your biased crippled logic. You have told everyone here they are wrong, and that you are right... You've repeated yourself time and time again, yet at no point in time have you proven that using an exploit in game should be logically permited. Nor have you proven it's all the devs fault. And your sitting here preaching exastentialism to me saying sayng how I just can't accept losing (which you made up since you had absolutley no facts to base that on, punching more holes in your "logic"), but at the same time your the one who's here saying it's the devs fault, and the cry babies fault, and not your own for knowingly breaking the rules. Meanwhile EVERYONE here has said, IF THEY SAY IT'S NOT ALOUD AND YOU DO IT ANYWAYS IT'S YOUR OWN FAULT... yet you continue to say "logically it's there fault.... So far, you seem to being the only cry baby here. You've proven nothing, all you've done is cried about how it's not your fault... This thread is old, and I rarely say this, but you sir are an absolute close minded moron who chooses to believe only what he wants in order to justify his own petty behavior. Do us all a favor and shut the hell up.
What does the coding info have to do with anything? Are you trying to claim its not a design oversight? What do you think has to be done when there is a design oversight? Obviously the same thing. If your trying to claim that an exploit involves a typo in the code thats not true, that would never get past the compiler.
THe fact that you in some cases can lose gracefully doesn't mean you always do. For instance I know plenty of people in mmorpgs that will pvp only in duel type situations against people they know will not brag when they win. But if you take those same people and pk them they will bitch and whine for hours. If you take the same people and decide to brag when you beat them they will start claiming you cheated or make up excuses.
I have never exploited in a game before. Stop lying because you can think of no real arguments. Im sorry you are too stupid not to run out in front of people who can attack you with pets in non pvp zones. WHat is even the problem here, why not just kill the pet when this happens? And this is NOT a bug, obviously the developer just forgot to make it so pets can't attack when the user is in a non pvp zone.
I have explained why exploit banning is not justified many times. It is an aggresive act that is by nature wrong. The only way to justify such an act is if it prevents a greater evil. Exploits are not necessarily evil or bad. THey are simply what the developer did not intend, and we have no way to know wheather what the developer wants is good or bad. And even if you limited banning to very specific exploits that WERE bad, you could simply remove the exploits instead so it is no longer preventing this evil because there was a less evil way to prevent the bad exploits.
Unfortunately you do not get to decide when the thread is old just because you can think of no arguments and don't want to admit you are wrong and don't want to be called out either.
Every act has some motivation behind it. If the only motivation behind your argument was only to discover the truth, you A) would not constantly be resorting to insults, would not be adding unrelated aspects such as griefing to the exploiting C) would not be trying to lie and claim I was an exploiter. If you cant even deal with debate obviously you cannot deal with any other type of competition. When your entire argument consists of something thats not even an exploit but involves someone pking its obvious where your motivations come from.
Originally posted by xplororor
Too bad it dissappeared. But there was not much too it. You're entire "argument" gets nullified because of one thing: All MMORPGs are the property of the company/companies that make them. If you do not like the rules they make, that they set, then it is too bad for you. DAoC aka Mythic won a major, major, major, court case that set this in stone. To quote the folks at EQ "You are playing in our world now. " And they are right. If you do not like the rules set by MMORPG companies, the only thing you can do is not pay them. Legally you stand no where. As Mythic challenged the law, and ended up supported by the law. Mythic's win supports the rules and regulations set by all other MMORPG companies for their games. All you can do if you are mad that you cannot exploit, is not play their game. Heck, make your own game in which you allow everyone to exploit as much as they want to heheh. MMORPGs are a buisness. Exploiting leads to losing more customers, than gaining customers. Exploiting hurts buisness. That is the ultimate bottom line why it is not allowed. And the real, solid, definition of exploiting is: - Playing a game in such a way that the way you're playing goes against the rules you yourself agree to abide by every single time you login to play and click "yes" or "agree" in the Terms and Conditions and License Agreement.
For the 1 billionth time, what developers have so far put in their contracts so far is COMPLETELY irrelevant to weather they should continue to do so.
Actually there are other court cases where people sued and one for a MMORPG company destroying what the players had created in game. Each court case depends on the situation, the contracts, and the law. And even if one court does something its actions can still be appealed, overturned, or ignored at a later date and the law can be amended when they realize it was wrong. THere is no Stone.
A game with no exploits would obviously have more customers than a game which does have exploits and bans people who use them. Don't think to tell me that a game with exploits without a banning policy would have less customers than a game with exploits and a banning policy when there is obviously something very strong working against this unproven theory - The fact that people dont like to be banned and don't like to play games in fear of being banned.
Your definition of exploit is completely useless without showing what the rules are regarding exploits. It just transfers the responsibility to define exploits to the "rules". If this is whats on the website as the definition of an exploit, and the company goes around banning whoever they feel like claiming they are exploiting it would be rediculous
Originally posted by Sketch
No we've all reached that conclusion ourselves by reading your posts.
Dont condemn "all" to your level of maturity. Just because a few people on the thread can't think of arguments or admit they are wrong doesn't mean that everyone thinks I am unintelligent.
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Krim I read your response to my prior post. Again it shows me how wrapped up in your self rightouesness you are. I want you to re-read my post again and PROVE to me your points are valid and correct in todays society.
And you have stated even in this very thread that you have been accused by devs/admin in a game of exploiting. So go away with the non-sensical BS that you have never done that.
And explain it conciesly to me. I dont want 20 paragraphs. Nor do I wish you to skirt the issue. I CHALLENGE you to prove to me and the rest of the mmorpg community that your view is the right one. Get right to the meat of the issue. Don't use your regular elitest speak. Just plain old fashioned english is fine. Consider it if you will a clean slate.
Exploiters should not be banned because:
Exploiting is part of a game because:
Exploiting is the devs problem not ours because:
Exploiting does not harm a game because:
We as gamers have the right to use exploits because:
At XXX point is when an exploit should be a punisable offence:
Punishment for those who have been accused once by devs as exploiters should be as follows:
Punishment for those who have been accused multiple times by devs as exploiters should be as follows:
I understand that some of the above statements you may or may not agree with. in the case of agreement just give us an idea as to why. We dont need a global explanation that requires 1000 words. But rather a concise writing of your own thoughts on the subject.
In the case you do not agrree with one of the above then again voice your disagreement and then concisely point out why.
And as a last thought your idea that those that disagree with you are just mad due to the fact that they were killed by someone ingame is logistically flawed. Even you should see the pitfalls and dangers of that.
lol, Ive yet to hear anyone agree with you, and yet you continue to blame the world, or cry out that everyone else must not be intellectually capable of grasping the subject of "exploiting". tell yea what, wrap yourself up in that blanket of self-righteousness you've created and enjoy your life as a exploiter who invents his own turths to defend your right to ignore the rules and behave how you want.
I'm unsubscribing to this one.
But remeber Krim (ironic that your name and cheating "leet gamer" styles reflect so well)... Next time someone hits you in the face, it's really your fault for three reasons. (A) You didn't specify he wasn't allowed to, (B) You didn't stop him. and finally (C) Cause your a loser and the world will forever be laughing at you
Originally posted by Xaldor By Any Means Necessary is definately the motto you live by Kriminal....you should have been a politician instead of an avid gamer. We all know that wall hacking, aim-bots, and the like were not INTENDED to be a part of a regular game of CS. Just because there is a way to get these does not mean it's part of legal gameplay...If I were to enter a CS tourney I can guarantee you that wall hacking or aim-bots would be unanimously frowned upon...and so do you...Xaldor
Aim bots are hacking, they have nothing to do with this discussion. True anyone can get an aim bot, but its not part of the game. What is wall hacking? Is this an exploit or an actual hack? If you are talking about hacking I hope you realize we are not.
I thought despite the name you were talking about some way to get stuck in the wall or something that did not require a 3rd party program.
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So the reason that you feel banning shouldn't be allowed.... is because you were bullied by a GM?
Its a "Bad Cop" routine you little baby, get over it. They weren't actually going to ban you on the spot for getting stuck in the wall, it was just meant to scare you and say "we're watching". If you weren't exploiting then no harm done. Despite your inability to tell the difference between an exploit and unintended strategy, you've never been banned have you? Driven by emotion? Thats you.
Instead of reporting the wall bug to the devs and staying away from it, i see you preferred to whine and cry at someone who didn't make the game, nor has any power to fix bugs. You logically deduced from this scenario that devs are petty and selfish, and just use banning to cover their own irresponsibility?
Right.
Nothing can be logically deducted by your retarded experiences, that are more an example of mean GM's rather than a widespread dev-level problem in every single mmorpg. You missed the point of the nightclub thing again, it didn't matter what the reason or cause for booting someone out was.... it was the fact that it was legal to do so.
I have given reasons to why exploiting is bad; how some of them obviously ruin the environment of the game, the various cases where they ruined the economy/devalued certain items, etc. "If everyone can wallhack, then whats the problem?".... the problem is the game is now just a stupid program running numbers, instead of a virtual world.
And once again, i fail to see whats wrong with banning repeat exploiters who ignore warnings. The devs can fix the bug, but sometimes its harder than you think. It might require some time to completely fix. And if within that time, the warned exploiter frantically continues to use the exploit in order to gain as much as possible... then ban away.
I actually don't play PvP mmo's much, other than the usual CS, or WC3. Thats right, i'm a carebear casual gamer, who's never "lost" in a mmorpg because i've never fought, wether it was actual PvP or the powergamer race for levels and riches. If you want to think of yourself as a special enlightened minority, then do so, but thats no basis for making asinine assumptions.
Originally posted by Sithos Krim I read your response to my prior post. Again it shows me how wrapped up in your self rightouesness you are. I want you to re-read my post again and PROVE to me your points are valid and correct in todays society. And you have stated even in this very thread that you have been accused by devs/admin in a game of exploiting. So go away with the non-sensical BS that you have never done that. And explain it conciesly to me. I dont want 20 paragraphs. Nor do I wish you to skirt the issue. I CHALLENGE you to prove to me and the rest of the mmorpg community that your view is the right one. Get right to the meat of the issue. Don't use your regular elitest speak. Just plain old fashioned english is fine. Consider it if you will a clean slate. Exploiters should not be banned because: Exploiting is part of a game because: Exploiting is the devs problem not ours because: Exploiting does not harm a game because: We as gamers have the right to use exploits because: At XXX point is when an exploit should be a punisable offence: Punishment for those who have been accused once by devs as exploiters should be as follows: Punishment for those who have been accused multiple times by devs as exploiters should be as follows: I understand that some of the above statements you may or may not agree with. in the case of agreement just give us an idea as to why. We dont need a global explanation that requires 1000 words. But rather a concise writing of your own thoughts on the subject. In the case you do not agrree with one of the above then again voice your disagreement and then concisely point out why. And as a last thought your idea that those that disagree with you are just mad due to the fact that they were killed by someone ingame is logistically flawed. Even you should see the pitfalls and dangers of that.
Being accused of exploiting is not exploiting. Exploiting is exploiting. I was accused once for exploiting because I fell out of a window or something and got stuck in an ally. I was accused once for exploiting for using cover to fight a mob by a certain volunteer gm, and later this was declared by the company not to be an exploit. I have never exploited.
Ok. Btw I have already done this a million times, and any insults made by me were in response to insults by other parties first, and only 1/10th of the scale of their insults (but true so they anger more)
Exploiters should not be banned because: Banning is an agressive act. All aggresive acts are wrong. If you commit an aggresive act only because it has to be done to prevent a greater evil, then it is no longer really an aggresive act. The only way to justify banning is if all exploits defined by the website definitions of exploiting had a bad effect on the game. All of them are not, because the definition is unlimited in scope and effectively just whatever the developers decide they want to be an exploit.
Its obvious the tone taken by mmorpg devs is not objective. They produce illogical arguments as to why exploiting is wrong such as that they are an unfair advantage when the only thing that makes them so is the fact that they themselves declared them against the rules. They are obviously acting out of frustration that they are unable to create a well balanced game. IE they are taking aggresive actions against people for using what they call exploits which are not aggresive acts nor do they have necessarily a bad effect on the game. BTW they are usually equally as angry against simple powergamers who think of things they did not foresee regarding their design of the game.
Even in the case of ONLY exploits that really are detrimental to the game, the exploits could always be removed instead by the non aggresive act of fixing the bugs they are based on. Therefore relying on the aggresive act of banning instead is wrong.
Exploiting is part of the game because: We cannot possibly know what the developers consdier a bug or not to be a bug, therefore we cannot know what all exploits are. Also some things the developer does not intend are good for the game.
Exploiting is the devs problem not ours because: They alone have the resources to actually fix the bugs behind exploits, and to have a plan for how the game should be balanced and come out. It is their responsibility to determine what is the best idea for their game. Stopping ourselves from doing anything that might let us excel in the game to worry if the devs might call it an exploit ruins the fun of the game, and we have no way of knowing because it depends on what is the developers idea for the game.
Exploits do not harm a game because: Exploits are simply defined to be using a bug in the game. A bug could be anything the developer didn't intend and this is how the definition is used in practice. What the developer didn't intend is not necessarily bad for the game. If you limit the definition of exploits to things which have carefully been determined to actually harm the game then still they can be stopped simply by fixing them rather than banning customers.
At NO point should an exploit be a punishable offense because: No matter how hard a developer works to fix an exploit they could work harder, smarter, or hire more qa to prevent or fix an exploit faster. Therefore it is by their choice that the exploit is still in the game and immoral for them to ban customers for it when there is a non aggresive way to deal with exploits.
Yes not all that disagree with me are necessarily mad because they lost in an in game battle. However many are raving about griefers etc. or going on about how much they hate exploiters. There is only one possible source of this anger... someone pking them with a strategy they didn't expect. It could be an exploit or maybe even wasn't one. If they weren't angry, then they wouldn't all be up in arms or trying to accuse me of being an "exploit griefer" etc.
Originally posted by Sketch lol, Ive yet to hear anyone agree with you, and yet you continue to blame the world, or cry out that everyone else must not be intellectually capable of grasping the subject of "exploiting". tell yea what, wrap yourself up in that blanket of self-righteousness you've created and enjoy your life as a exploiter who invents his own turths to defend your right to ignore the rules and behave how you want. I'm unsubscribing to this one. But remeber Krim (ironic that your name and cheating "leet gamer" styles reflect so well)... Next time someone hits you in the face, it's really your fault for three reasons. (A) You didn't specify he wasn't allowed to, (B) You didn't stop him. and finally (C) Cause your a loser and the world will forever be laughing at you
I am not an exploiter, stop lying because you cannot think of an argument or admit you are wrong. I marvel at your brilliance in claiming that anyone with the name other than "MODEL CITIZEN" should be banned from all mmorpg games on site.
Hitting someone in the face is an aggresive act and therefore is wrong. Much like banning in this sense. Exploiting is not an aggresive act. Thanks for the final unconnected metaphor on the way out. Bye.
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Originally posted by Genjing So the reason that you feel banning shouldn't be allowed.... is because you were bullied by a GM? Its a "Bad Cop" routine you little baby, get over it. They weren't actually going to ban you on the spot for getting stuck in the wall, it was just meant to scare you and say "we're watching". If you weren't exploiting then no harm done. Despite your inability to tell the difference between an exploit and unintended strategy, you've never been banned have you? Driven by emotion? Thats you. Instead of reporting the wall bug to the devs and staying away from it, i see you preferred to whine and cry at someone who didn't make the game, nor has any power to fix bugs. You logically deduced from this scenario that devs are petty and selfish, and just use banning to cover their own irresponsibility? Right. Nothing can be logically deducted by your retarded experiences, that are more an example of mean GM's rather than a widespread dev-level problem in every single mmorpg. You missed the point of the nightclub thing again, it didn't matter what the reason or cause for booting someone out was.... it was the fact that it was legal to do so. I have given reasons to why exploiting is bad; how some of them obviously ruin the environment of the game, the various cases where they ruined the economy/devalued certain items, etc. "If everyone can wallhack, then whats the problem?".... the problem is the game is now just a stupid program running numbers, instead of a virtual world. And once again, i fail to see whats wrong with banning repeat exploiters who ignore warnings. The devs can fix the bug, but sometimes its harder than you think. It might require some time to completely fix. And if within that time, the warned exploiter frantically continues to use the exploit in order to gain as much as possible... then ban away. I actually don't play PvP mmo's much, other than the usual CS, or WC3. Thats right, i'm a carebear casual gamer, who's never "lost" in a mmorpg because i've never fought, wether it was actual PvP or the powergamer race for levels and riches. If you want to think of yourself as a special enlightened minority, then do so, but thats no basis for making asinine assumptions. And because the crowd demands it:
So not only do you claim banning, an aggresive act is ok, you think its ok for gms to threaten paying customers who EVERYONE AGREES hasn't done anything wrong. When there is no set definition of exploit, the effect of such an action is to have everyone trip that everything they do might be an exploit. You think this is a good thing? You think people pay for that crap? Why do you think the market is doing so badly?
Noone can tell the difference between an exploit and an unintended strategy. Especially not the gms who claim anything is an exploit they want to. And nothing about the way exploiting is defined stops any of them from doing it.
What are you talking about regarding the wall bug in AO? I simply got stuck somewhere and paged the ark to get me out, and after the games own bug stuck me in a wall for like 20 minutes and I finally got help the little welp had the nerve to accuse me of cheating. ANyone would be pissed after some crap like that. If the ark did not represent the people who made and ran the game then what the heck buisness did he have accusing me of cheating? If he represents the company then yeah what he represents was responsible for making the game.
A minute ago all my experience came from only Neocron. Now all my experience comes from AO? Riiighht.. Yeah what was I thinking. You are totally mature and capable of rational thought.
Read this outloud: I M SOFA KING WE TODD IT
Yes indeed you are or at least thats how you are acting atm.
Once again my experience are not used to deduce anything. The definition of exploit is used to deduce the problems here. First you claim that my experiences aren't useful, then you claim that the fact that the definition of exploit is extremely vague doesn't matter because no developer ever abuses it? MY GOD YOUR A GENIUS!!!
Its legal for nightclubs to kick people out. If they abuse it they both lose reputation and could possibly be sued.
If everyone can hide in the walls and be invincible then the game is unbalanced. Do we consider it wrong to play a class that is unbalanced in a mmorpg. No. Its the developers responsibility to balance the game we just adapt and leave if it gets boring.
I have no problem with stopping exploiters in other ways. Most games have ways to rollback only certain characters for instance. In any case this should be used over banning. But once again this is a second choice to simply removing or preventing the exploit from existence.
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Too bad it dissappeared. But there was not much too it. You're entire "argument" gets nullified because of one thing:
All MMORPGs are the property of the company/companies that make them. If you do not like the rules they make, that they set, then it is too bad for you. DAoC aka Mythic won a major, major, major, court case that set this in stone. To quote the folks at EQ "You are playing in our world now. " And they are right.
If you do not like the rules set by MMORPG companies, the only thing you can do is not pay them. Legally you stand no where. As Mythic challenged the law, and ended up supported by the law. Mythic's win supports the rules and regulations set by all other MMORPG companies for their games. All you can do if you are mad that you cannot exploit, is not play their game. Heck, make your own game in which you allow everyone to exploit as much as they want to heheh.
MMORPGs are a buisness. Exploiting leads to losing more customers, than gaining customers. Exploiting hurts buisness. That is the ultimate bottom line why it is not allowed. And the real, solid, definition of exploiting is:
- Playing a game in such a way that the way you're playing goes against the rules you yourself agree to abide by every single time you login to play and click "yes" or "agree" in the Terms and Conditions and License Agreement.
For the 1 billionth time, what developers have so far put in their contracts so far is COMPLETELY irrelevant to weather they should continue to do so.
You make absolutly no sense here. It is up to the game company/developler what they want to put into their contract, License Agreement, Terms and Services, and any other fine print - NOT up to you. It is not up to you to decide what rules they set is releveant or irrelevant. It is not up to you what they continue to put into their rules. They can change their OWN rules anytime they want. "Subject to change" is the term they use. You might think it is irrelevant, but the law does not. As proven by Mythic in their ultra famous court case.
Actually there are other court cases where people sued
Sued for what? For getting banned for exploiting? There are none. Any other court cases were over misselaneous (sp) things. Like a player scamming another player and the victim crying and telling their parents to sue. Or like the very few cases where someone kills theirselves and the parents blame the game and try to sue to make up for their bad parenting.
and one for a MMORPG company destroying what the players had created in game.
*cough*
That was what Mythic's case covered. Oh yeah, IF there were any other prior cases it does not matter since Mythic's case is the most recent case. It is the one that sets the precident. It is the one with the most weight. It is the one that any possible current, and future cases will have to challenge.
Each court case depends on the situation, the contracts, and the law.
That is PART of what decides who wins a court case. The rest is taken from researching any prior cases that set a precident. Any prior cases that cover the same subject. That is how a judge and/or jury makes the final decison. No matter if it is an appeals case, or a state supreame court case, or national supeream court case. Mythic's case was interstate. It was a Federal decision. Federal law supports the Terms and Conditions, License Agreement, contracts you agree to everytime you login and play a MMORPG. Right now there could be 5 new cases in 5 different states. ALL of them will use Mythic's case to make their decisions.
Until you yourself successfuly appeal the decision in Mythics case, the decision still stands. Until you yourself get an admendment to successfuly pass, the law still stands as it is.
And even if one court does something its actions can still be appealed, overturned,
True. But Appeals also run out. There is also statue of limitations. There are no indefinate amount of appeals. This point of yours is moot though because Mythic's court case as NOT been successfully appealed, nor overturned. Thus it still stands firm and solid as of right now. Thus MMORPG companies still own their game, set the rules, the agreements. Thus everytime you click on "yes" or "agree" the law supports whatever rules the company writes in the Terms and Services, License Agreement, or any other fine print you agree to everytime you login and play.
or ignored at a later date
There is no such thing as a court decision being ignored by a jurist. A jurist/judge will face getting disbarred, kicked off the bench, if he or she on purpose ignores any prior cases that have bearing on their current case. That is the reason FOR court decisons. To form a bases for deciding all future decisions relating to it.
and the law can be amended when they realize it was wrong. THere is no Stone.
It takes a heck of a lot to amend a law. The law has NOT been amended. So... Again, RIGHT NOW the law is on the side of the MMORPG companies. They set the rules. You the player agree to the rules everytime you login and play. You can say "could be", "can be", but the hard fact is it has not been.
A game with no exploits would obviously have more customers than a game which does have exploits and bans people who use them.
There you go! Thank you for making a step in seeing what everyone is saying. You yourself are now admitting exploiting is not good. Now keep on making more steps and you will see why companies can so ban exploiters if they decide to.
Don't think to tell me that a game with exploits without a banning policy would have less customers than a game with exploits and a banning policy when there is obviously something very strong working against this unproven theory - The fact that people dont like to be banned and don't like to play games in fear of being banned.
You are going in the wrong direction. It is up to the game company if they want to ban exploiters. AO banned many exploiters who found a way to reproduce the ingame money in unlimited amounts. AC2 did NOT ban exploiters who found a way to reach endgame 1 month after AC2 released. It is up to the game company what rules they set, how they want to enforce them, and if they want to ban exploiters, give them a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th chance. It is not about if "a game has exploiters and no banning policy" or if "a game has exploits and a banning policy". It is about the fact that it is up to a gaming company if they want to ban a player for exploiting or not. Joe uses an exploit to reproduce ingame money until he has 100 million gold. Jake does the same thing until he has 1 million gold. The game company bans Joe but give a warning to Jake. Because the game company feels Joe caused more damage and harm to the game economy/world than Jake did.
Your definition of exploit is completely useless without showing what the rules are regarding exploits. It just transfers the responsibility to define exploits to the "rules". If this is whats on the website as the definition of an exploit, and the company goes around banning whoever they feel like claiming they are exploiting it would be rediculous
It is not rediculous. It is reality. And yes it is defined in the RULES. Take the time to read through all of them the next time you login to your favorite MMORPG. It is not my definition. It is THE definition. That is why the rules are made in the first place. That is what the law looks at when/if it gets taken to court. "Were there any contracts?", "Did the player agree to adhearing to the contract?".
Guys, just stop argueing with, Kriminal99. Let him have his post here with no more replies to him. He doesn't get it at all. None of us believe him that he isn't an exploiter. His posts over both thread have only proved he is one. He keeps throwing out baseless points and totally ignores ours that are based on fact. He claims many aggree with him but where are they? If he was actually making a good arguement, there would be at least a few people here joining him but so far it is still him. Just forget it. He so wants to exploit without worring about being banned that he tries to spin his idiotic ideas into something that makes sense but they only work in his mind.
Although, it is funny that he said he is insulting people in response to people insulting him. Except he seems to forget he was the first one to insult which happened in the first post. Remember how he said that the people who disaggreed with him are only semi-intelligent? This coming from a guy who always uses weather for whether. Hey, Krim, weather has to do with the climate and whether is what you wanted to use.
You make absolutly no sense here. It is up to the game company/developler what they want to put into their contract, License Agreement, Terms and Services, and any other fine print - NOT up to you. It is not up to you to decide what rules they set is releveant or irrelevant. It is not up to you what they continue to put into their rules. They can change their OWN rules anytime they want. "Subject to change" is the term they use. You might think it is irrelevant, but the law does not. As proven by Mythic in their ultra famous court case.
Sued for what? For getting banned for exploiting? There are none. Any other court cases were over misselaneous (sp) things. Like a player scamming another player and the victim crying and telling their parents to sue. Or like the very few cases where someone kills theirselves and the parents blame the game and try to sue to make up for their bad parenting.
*cough*
That was what Mythic's case covered. Oh yeah, IF there were any other prior cases it does not matter since Mythic's case is the most recent case. It is the one that sets the precident. It is the one with the most weight. It is the one that any possible current, and future cases will have to challenge.
That is PART of what decides who wins a court case. The rest is taken from researching any prior cases that set a precident. Any prior cases that cover the same subject. That is how a judge and/or jury makes the final decison. No matter if it is an appeals case, or a state supreame court case, or national supeream court case. Mythic's case was interstate. It was a Federal decision. Federal law supports the Terms and Conditions, License Agreement, contracts you agree to everytime you login and play a MMORPG. Right now there could be 5 new cases in 5 different states. ALL of them will use Mythic's case to make their decisions.
Until you yourself successfuly appeal the decision in Mythics case, the decision still stands. Until you yourself get an admendment to successfuly pass, the law still stands as it is.
True. But Appeals also run out. There is also statue of limitations. There are no indefinate amount of appeals. This point of yours is moot though because Mythic's court case as NOT been successfully appealed, nor overturned. Thus it still stands firm and solid as of right now. Thus MMORPG companies still own their game, set the rules, the agreements. Thus everytime you click on "yes" or "agree" the law supports whatever rules the company writes in the Terms and Services, License Agreement, or any other fine print you agree to everytime you login and play.
There is no such thing as a court decision being ignored by a jurist. A jurist/judge will face getting disbarred, kicked off the bench, if he or she on purpose ignores any prior cases that have bearing on their current case. That is the reason FOR court decisons. To form a bases for deciding all future decisions relating to it.
It takes a heck of a lot to amend a law. The law has NOT been amended. So... Again, RIGHT NOW the law is on the side of the MMORPG companies. They set the rules. You the player agree to the rules everytime you login and play. You can say "could be", "can be", but the hard fact is it has not been.
There you go! Thank you for making a step in seeing what everyone is saying. You yourself are now admitting exploiting is not good. Now keep on making more steps and you will see why companies can so ban exploiters if they decide to.
You are going in the wrong direction. It is up to the game company if they want to ban exploiters. AO banned many exploiters who found a way to reproduce the ingame money in unlimited amounts. AC2 did NOT ban exploiters who found a way to reach endgame 1 month after AC2 released. It is up to the game company what rules they set, how they want to enforce them, and if they want to ban exploiters, give them a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th chance. It is not about if "a game has exploiters and no banning policy" or if "a game has exploits and a banning policy". It is about the fact that it is up to a gaming company if they want to ban a player for exploiting or not. Joe uses an exploit to reproduce ingame money until he has 100 million gold. Jake does the same thing until he has 1 million gold. The game company bans Joe but give a warning to Jake. Because the game company feels Joe caused more damage and harm to the game economy/world than Jake did.
It is not rediculous. It is reality. And yes it is defined in the RULES. Take the time to read through all of them the next time you login to your favorite MMORPG. It is not my definition. It is THE definition. That is why the rules are made in the first place. That is what the law looks at when/if it gets taken to court. "Were there any contracts?", "Did the player agree to adhearing to the contract?".
How does it not make sense? We are talking about WEATHER OR NOT the policies should be in mmorpgs. If they serve no purpose then a game can be made without them. This game will attract more people. And then games that still have them will die off. Who cares what developers that don't know any better have done so far? You do know that PEOPLE are behind mmorpg companies and not omniscient beings right? Often people with invalid opinions and lack of objective logical reasoning skills. Others are open to new ideas. I fail to see what the relevance of repeatedly pointing to the fact that up to this point mmorpgs have exploit clauses.
I believe people sued for losing items to some kind of crash in a different game or something, I don't remember which one someone else here was telling me about it. You are merely fabricating an enviornment where mmorpg devs are not responsible for thier negligence. This is not reality, the law is clear in such matters. Just because in one cases the circumstances did not merit payment of the players doesn't mean that in other cases they would not. I guarantee you that if I was banned from Neocron for what I did and wanted to start a class action suit, if it was held in america I would represent myself and win.
Think about what you just said for a minute. You said that if an earlier case found in favor of the players it doesn't matter because the most recent case sets the precedent. If that was true how could this case have been resolved differently then the other? Precedent has value, but not over the law. If one court misinterprets the law then its precedent is useless. ANd anyways precedent isn't as general as you are trying to make it. If there is a slight difference between the two cases there could be a different resolution. If a company runs around banning players for no reason the courts WILL draw the line.
Precedent has been overturned plenty of times. Like regarding slavery for instance. If a judge repeatedly ignored precedent without a really good reason for it yeah he would be disbarred. If you think that some yahoo judge can come up with a rediculous decision that completely contradicts the law and then everyone has to follow that you are wrong. Thats what law is all about, everything looks like its set in stone to the layman, but its lawyers jobs to show that law was is being misinterpreted by the other side.
Actually you misread what I said. I said that a game with no banning policy and no exploits is obviously better than a game with exploits and a banning policy. If a game has no exploit policy, How could it possibly have any exploits? It might have things that are in the game that the developers didn't intend, but they won't be called exploits. If the developers don't like them they will simply change them. It is the lack of banning players that makes the first one better not the lack of exploits.
Man I said this before to someone but it really applies to you more than anyone else. You need to recognize that even if you are some kind of mentally subservient manwhore to mmorpg developers it doesn't mean everyone else is. It is blatantly obvious that debating mmorpg theory is relevant. If you think you are unqualified to do this then don't say anything. That doesn't mean I am not. What developers have mistakenly chosen to do up to this point has no bearing.
You did not define the rules in your definition of exploit therefore your definition was utterly useless. Most games do not limit their definition of exploit to specific things, that is the main point of this thread. If they did I agree it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad, but I still think it would be wrong. Exploit policy as it is is the real life equivalent of a law that allows the police to arrest anyone they think is "doing something wrong". It doesn't take a genius to imagine what chaos would ensue from a law such as this.
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Originally posted by Otlano Guys, just stop argueing with, Kriminal99. Let him have his post here with no more replies to him. He doesn't get it at all. None of us believe him that he isn't an exploiter. His posts over both thread have only proved he is one. He keeps throwing out baseless points and totally ignores ours that are based on fact. He claims many aggree with him but where are they? If he was actually making a good arguement, there would be at least a few people here joining him but so far it is still him. Just forget it. He so wants to exploit without worring about being banned that he tries to spin his idiotic ideas into something that makes sense but they only work in his mind. Although, it is funny that he said he is insulting people in response to people insulting him. Except he seems to forget he was the first one to insult which happened in the first post. Remember how he said that the people who disaggreed with him are only semi-intelligent? This coming from a guy who always uses weather for whether. Hey, Krim, weather has to do with the climate and whether is what you wanted to use.
People are arguing with me because they fear I am right and my arguments make more sense. If it wasn't the case that mmorpgs have been using exploit policies all this time you people would look like absolute fools. 90% of your posts have just been childish insults and whining that someone disagrees with the norm.
And guess what there is no e in arguing or argument... oO Want to continue with the spelling game...
If and when I said that people arguing with me were acting semi intelligently, it was only after the people used extensive insults and refused to evaluate arguments logically. I find it hilarious that you think something like this is even on the same level of the kind of stuff being said by other people. If this doesn't show who is has no arguments and who makes sense I don't know what would.
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Comments
I said that the forums do not represent mmorpg players accurately back in the last thread. I said that people who play the game for fun and competition and are good, mature competitors A) Usually play the games rather than post on the forums
have in general agreed with my opinions on exploiting C) When an exploit is used against them they simply adapt and find a way to beat the person anyways, the same as they would with any strategy.
I also said that an unrepresentitive portion of the people on the forums A) probably are not good competitors, and are on the forums because they usually lose in pvp and PVe gets boring so they are here to socialize with other gamers
are probably not good in pvp BECAUSE they are not mature competitors and would stick to any excuse they could find rather than accept defeat and learn from it C) Contrive naive morality systems that serve their own selfish desires and don't make much sense.
THe basic idea however of why I think more people agree with me in general is not that complicated. People don't like to be banned and lose their money. If your going to do that you damn well better have a good reason for it if you still want peopel to play your game. The devs excuse for this is very poorly reasoned. Take people off the street before they have been brainwashed by the market up to this point, and place me next to some dev trying to explain why its ok for them to ban their paying customers and the person is just going to forget about playing mmorpgs until a game appears that isn't like that.
For all you know the reason why more people don't play mmorpgs is because the companies treat their customers like they are life rejects who they can order around all they want. Creating a game with a more intelligent idealology could make customers that would never have played before.
I love your misinterpretation of my poll. Almost half of the voters have declared that exploiting policy as it is now is unacceptable. I am the only one so far that thinks a company should not do it at all because they can simply fix or prevent the problems rather than specifically notate them on the website. Do you think those people that say exploiting needs to be more clearly defined are going to complain there is no banning policy if a game comes that never has exploits to begin with? I don't think so. The difference between the 2 no choices is just weather or not its possible to prevent exploits enough that they are not a problem, and people vote no because what they have seen so far is that every game has them. I vote yes a game can be created without exploits because I know why exploits have been in games so far and that they can be stopped completely.
What are you talking about all mmorpg devs having ulterior motives? Obviously they all have motives pertaining to their own happiness if that is what you are (very poorly) trying to interpret from my own post. The dev you mentioned obviously wants to create what he thinks is the best game so that he can feel good about himself. What do you think? That he experiences life from the point of view of every person who plays his game and monitors what makes all those people happiest from their points of view? No... He might try and imagine or reason this so he can better know how to do it so that he can make HIMSELF happy at his accomplishment.
Its not really that complicated. Exploit policy is not justified unless every game developer was some kind of divinely objective being that would never make an exploit law just because they think it would help them get more money, or because THEY THINK it would make a better game when in the grand scheme of things it actually would not. This is obviously not the case. You cannot prove that a developer has no desires other than to create the best game any more than you can prove that he was an omniscient being capable of knowing for sure the overall effect of any potential exploit in the game was.
Unjust laws are sometimes necessary in real world emergency situations because they prevent some greater problem, and in this sense they are temporarily just. However to then refuse to consider a better way of preventing the greater problem to replace the laws with is then wrong. In mmorpgs there is no great evil worthy of allowing exploit laws. It is simply the developers investment that is at risk, and they can always plan better before the game starts to prevent the exploits. So not only is it immoral to refuse to consider alternatives to exploit laws now, it was never justified to begin with because there were no emergency situations that could not have been prevented from which some greater evil rise.
Oh boy another unconnected metaphor. Nightclubs have a need to maintain peace. If a nightclub owner were to kick someone out of the club for an unjust reason it is wrong and the person would not return plus the nightclub could get a bad reputation and many people would stop coming. Lawsuits can be filed for this type of thing after the fact as well. Just like any other buisness. Yeah for the immediate moment a resturaunt can make you leave because its needed to prevent violence to have both parties removed from each other and its their property. But if there was a signifigant transaction or emotional damage involved a civil court can still come in after the fact an resolve the dispute, and if the resturaunt was in the wrong then they can gain a bad rep and people stop going there. Stop looking at the world from the point of view of a helpless mindless sheep that is subject to whatever whims "those people who are smart enough to run buisnesses" decide to inflict on you, and start thinking from the point of view as a buisness owner with better ideas or a customer who might enjoy a buisness run on better ideas.
You recognize that giving other players the ability to ban would not be a smart thing to do, yet you cannot see how the developers are a not much better choice. The only difference is that other players might use banning to attack each other over pvp whereas developers might use it to attack people who think of things they didn't.
People like you never get anywhere in the world? Are you going to go try and fight someone every time you lose something or cannot adjust to the world. If you tried that youd be nothing more than a dead body lying in a gutter in no time. And getting angry and crying sploiter after everyone who beats you in pvp is not much different than this....
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I for one am so freaking happy that Kriminal is back with another logical argument post, cause it's just so damn entertaining. Anyone that wants a great laugh, and has 6 hours to kill, do a search fo the logical argument PVP thread that Kriminal posted a few months back. Be warned though the thread is about 75 pages long or something.
OK now for my opinion...I'll keep it real short. Kriminal is the type of guy that is the banker in a game of Monopoly, so he can steal a few $500 bills. He's the guy in Counter-Strike that uses wall hacks. He's the guy you play poker with that tries to sneak a peek at your cards. The best part about him is that when he is caught stealing the $500 bills, using wall hacks, or looking at your cards, he will justify his behavior with a "logical argument". True gamers play games the way they were meant to be played...they do not look for loop-holes within a game system in order to gain an unfair advantage...that is what criminals do...wait now I see where you got your name from...it's all clear now...my bad, proceed with your criminal self...Xaldor
Many games have items or magic which allow you to walk through walls. The only thing that makes these things seem out of place is the fact that they are not consistent with the developers design of the world.
Its funny you should bring this up, because usually when something was considered an exploit and I was told to stop in Neocron, the reason I though it was obviously not an exploit (besides the fact that many of these things were so obvious they had to know it could be done) was that they were realistic. For example poking out behind cover to shoot mobs, careful mathematic analyzation of market items to see how them and tradeskills could be used to make money, having myself shot or beaten to toughen myself up (martial artists do this), placing artillery turrets on the roof of a building rather than on the ground, etc... but anyways.
Your experience in Neocron does not carry over to every single mmorpg ever made... which your argument suggests. Based on your descriptions, i wouldn't consider those exploits either. Have you even played any of the others? Also, getting shot generally isn't supposed to make you more resistant to being shot in the future. Thats why i like Face of Mankind's no skills no classes.
Moving to exploits which actually DO seem out of place for the world, well following what I have seen they simply need a viable explanation to explain why they can be done in the game and not in real life for me to take them seriously. Well obviously we have the explanation that they are part of computer games. THey have been in computer games since the dawn of time. Its kind of like something thats totally seperate from the game, it doesn't really even effect the roleplay any more than stopping to get something to eat when you are playing. Its not the same effect that say having a poor story behind your world has because the player knows its not part of the story.
If you tried to use the same excuse for why a game has a poor story its like "ok I see why but now where do I go to get involved in a strong story" The bottom line is exploits do about the same amount of damage to roleplay as getting up to go to the bathroom during play, which is to say not much.
There's a major difference here. Going to the bathroom or getting something to eat is a choice you make, because there is a big line between the real world and the virtual world. But once i'm in the virtual world, i don't want to see obvious coding errors that have nothing to do with the game itself. (unless its part of the storyline like in .hack). There really is no logical explanation for item duping or being able to fire arrows through a solid wall at a mob, while the need to pee is a basic need that most gamers know is necessary.
Games, like movies, require a suspension of disbelief. But there is a limit to how obviously stupid and fake it can get.
So, you're saying everyone here who disagrees with you is simply not a good, mature competitor? You also have no basis for assuming everyone who disagrees is naive, immature, or selfish... or even that we "usually lose in pvp and PVe gets boring so they are here to socialize with other gamers". Its always fun to see you make totally biased opinions while putting the word "Logical" in the thread title. Neocron has a tiny playerbase, that in no way represents the general mmorpg public, therefore you know nothing. Your examples, your logic, your supposed "general support" all comes from Neocron therefore your complaint about exploits remains specifically a Neocron issue. Once again i ask; have you played any mmorpgs other than Neocron? If not, then you are as biased as they come.
As for your poll, does every single game have the same exact exploiting policy? There may be some that need re-working, but in the end its unanimous (except for you) that banning IS acceptable in certain cases. Which is the whole point of this thread isn't it? My poll was biased while yours isn't? This issue essentially comes down to 2 choices, banning: yes or no? You have one absolute "no", and then like 4 or 5 varying and wordy degrees of "yes" (very tricky, including the 2 choices that start as "No, but.."), obviously meant to split up the votes of those who accept banning as a punishment. Your poll is a joke that backfired.
A game with absolutely no exploits? A noble pursuit, but i'd like to see you give it a try. You know how to program? Try making a mmorpg, hotshot. You obviously have no grasp of the time and effort these things require. And your whole thing about explaining why devs are actually seeking self-satisfaction is pointless... because EVERY single act we do can be justified as simply pursuing self satisfaction. Your arguing this moot point is nothing more than self-satisfaction either, since you were never banned for exploiting... so it doesn't directly effect you. The fact that there is a pursuit of self-satisfaction doesn't prove that most devs just want money, rather than a fun, balanced game. Did it ever occur to you that THEIR satisfaction might come from OUR satisfaction? In that case, the well being of the gamers and game world is in their best interest, because they will not gain their precious self-satisfaction unless a majority of gamers are happy. Its the same with most artists, directors, or musicians; they care that people enjoy their product or performance.
I'll avoid getting too deep into your other incredibly broad generalizations on unjust laws by saying this: banning is not unjust when the crime is serious enough. You're saying that no exploit is serious enough to warrant banning, no matter the number of warnings and fair time to stop is given. You never really addressed what was so bad about banning someone who IGNORED multiple warnings.
The nightclubs have a need to maintain peace, but a mmorpg doesn't? I don't mean peace as in PvE, everyone being friends, i mean maintaining a stable environment for patrons to enjoy. Nightclubs generally don't throw out more people then they let stay... so reputation hit isn't as bad as you make it sound. You don't need to get into specifics of legality and crap, the point was that the owner of a property has the right to tell you to get the hell off and stay off. If there is a clear exploit policy that says "If you do this, and continue doing it after X warnings" expressed, then banning is fine.
Its obvious that you don't even respect the members of this forum enough to comprehend other arguments, since we're just a bunch of naive, helpless sheep compared to you, oh masterful one. Therefore i'm done here, and theres no point in debating anything with a mule-headed ass. Coldmeat was remarkably accurate, you are a troll. Your perception of devs is a bitch-slap to their face and work, especially considering the pitifully small amount of experience you have in mmorpgs anyway.
Your entire post could have just been replaced with "I don't like Krim, I want other people to not like him too!!11"
I actually don't do any of the things you listed but thanks for playing. "True gamers" is something you would know nothing about. Whats the difference between a loophole and a new strategy that allows you to win a game? None.
Yes it does carry over to every other mmorpg ever made. It is in fact the experience that some develoepers are more fair that does not carry over to other games. You see that is why a logical argument is made, it is obvious that people have different experiences. The fact that what happened to me CAN happen in ANY mmorpg because of the vagueness of the rules means that my experience does effect other games. One day you can just be playing some other game and be banned completely out of the blue and the company would not have broken their posted exploit policy because it is so vague, and knowledge of this effects the game experience in any of these games.
This is the concept behind a logical argument, it overrides experience by showing what is possible by deductive reasoning. It is not my fault that most people do not realize that deductive arguments override experience that says it has not happened yet.
I have tried other games. I believe in AO I was threatened once because I got stuck in the wall by accident and when I paged an "ark" for help he threatened to get me in trouble if I was exploiting. I was outraged and asked him why they don't just fix the damn bug rather than yell at customers who probably don't enjoy being stuck in walls to begin with.
Yeah I just pointed out myself that things need an explanation in order for them to continue being fun. The explanation for exploits is that you are playing a computer game. When you go to the bathroom you realize "Ok Im going to stop playing the game and go use the bathroom" When there is a bug in the game that really does seem out of place, you say "Ok I am going to stop playing the game to do this" Just like if you say buy an advanced account from UO you know you are starting ahead because you paid real world money to, that doesn't stop you from being drawn into your role once you are back in the game.
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I actually don't do any of the things you listed but thanks for playing. "True gamers" is something you would know nothing about. Whats the difference between a loophole and a new strategy that allows you to win a game? None.
And your orignial thread should be titled...I like to cheat when playing games...why do people hate me?...Xaldor
Krim, from all the crap I've read in your posts, I'm glad you got banned, and I wouldn't care if you got banned from every mmorpg you ever played cause you sir, are stupid.
With your logic its like saying people that wallhack in CS are legit, and that the CS devs should just find a way to prevent the wallhacking. No one is cheating, its the devs fault! BS.
You fill your posts with crap that has nothing to do with the issue to try to make yourself look smart or something. You are like that guy in Good Will Hunting, that memorizes crap out of a book and spits it back out at bars only to get owned by the people that know what they are talking about.
As of right now I'm sure about 99% of the people that actually read your long posts think you are just a little crybaby that got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. If you stop posting now, you might actually get that other 1% to respect you...but I doubt it.
Quit your whining
___________________
Killer 73%
Explorer 60%
Achiever 46%
Socializer 20%
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Killer 73%
Explorer 60%
Achiever 46%
Socializer 20%
Broad Generalizations, denigrating the majority of posters on this forum by calling them niave and such is what Krim is all about. Some of us have had long discussions with krim. Some of us have read through litterally over 100 of his quote and babble posts and have tried to reason with him.
He just returns to the same old argument of stating that everyone agrees with him if they are good gamers and if you dont agree then you aren't a good gamer. If worst comes to worst he posts in a fit of "I'm right your wrong" because I have debated more than you and I'm oh so much more intelligent than you are.
I'm sure he will quote and post this and then reply with a few paragraphs. But seriously krim. I want you to stop and take a look at all the posts you have made even if just in this thread. Realise how you come off to the majority of folks who in all likelyhood have played far longer and have a deeper understanding of MMORPGS than you ever will.
Realse how narrowminded and OMG how niave your view is. You are in no way open to having your ideals rebuked as you have shown time and again. You got caught multiple times exploiting and you have come here to soothe your bruised ego. You earlier posted that the folks posting on this board are bad gamers. Well I'd like to welcome you to the bad gamers club then. Nope you didn't use those exact words but overall thats the jist of it.
I'm now done with such a whiny weakminded waste of DNA such as yourself. Your entire argument consisted of you basically saying that you got caught multiple times exploiting and you feel that banning is wrong,and If you dont agree with me then you are a bad gamer. So Krim when you can PROVE to us that exploiting is NOT bad for MMORPGS and not prove to us what an elitest you are please feel free to post. I'm tired of you acting like a rich spoiled little child who feels he is better than everyone because he is rich. There are undoubtedly MANY MANY posters here who know about the inner workings of MMORPGS than you ever will. You are in our eyes a willful upstart child who needs to be sent for a time out but is to stubborn to understand this.
Damn your funny. My "lashing out" against exploiters... lol.. No in general I don't waste my time with them, this argument is just to funny, and there is no merit to your logic since you don't seem to actually have a clue what your talking about... First of all on a coding level, if an exploit occures due to a chain of events or actions they must examine the code and figure out which of these lines aare cause the exploit to become available. Then once they locate the cause they must find a way to eliminate the offending code without disrupting the effects that are suppose to occure. Sometimes it can be as simeple as 1 line edited, other times they might have to repaire every item invloved, and try to recode them to function as the were intended. Other times they miight not be repairable. As for my "inabillity to deal with competitive situations" as you put it... wow, does it hurt when you pul that crap out of your ass? I've one and lost plenty in MMO's and never comlained about it, hell most of the time I congratulate the people who beat me. But I gave you an exampe I witnessed and you describe that situation as "competitve"... Thats a farce, and no amount of your crippled logic could prove otherwise. In the scenario I listed, one person was outside of the pvp zone so they could not be attacked, the other was inside, and the exploiter was using his pets to attack leaving him in a position where he could not be attacked.... Thats not competative... But I'd love to hear your definition of "competitive", since you admit to using exploits and cheating in games. As for the "man" bullying you around, you poor baby... I feel just awful that someone told you not to do something and when you did it you got in shit... Damn that kind of hitler-esk villainy should not be permited!!!!
Now as for your biased crippled logic. You have told everyone here they are wrong, and that you are right... You've repeated yourself time and time again, yet at no point in time have you proven that using an exploit in game should be logically permited. Nor have you proven it's all the devs fault. And your sitting here preaching exastentialism to me saying sayng how I just can't accept losing (which you made up since you had absolutley no facts to base that on, punching more holes in your "logic"), but at the same time your the one who's here saying it's the devs fault, and the cry babies fault, and not your own for knowingly breaking the rules. Meanwhile EVERYONE here has said, IF THEY SAY IT'S NOT ALOUD AND YOU DO IT ANYWAYS IT'S YOUR OWN FAULT... yet you continue to say "logically it's there fault.... So far, you seem to being the only cry baby here.
You've proven nothing, all you've done is cried about how it's not your fault... This thread is old, and I rarely say this, but you sir are an absolute close minded moron who chooses to believe only what he wants in order to justify his own petty behavior. Do us all a favor and shut the hell up.
There are many reasons why people disagree about things. Obviously the fact that people disagree at all means that everyone cannot be right. I happen to know the point where people go wrong and make sure it doesn't happen to me. I have seen the people on this forum use reasoning error after reasoning error. I have seen them give completely different opinions but still each cite the fact that others disagree with me to support their own argument.
I have seen that the main reason that people here continue to defend anti-exploit policy is because they harbor anger towards people who have defeated them in MMORPGS. This is blatantly obvious by the things they say. For example there is no logical connection between griefers (a propaganda term used to describe pkers) and exploiters yet griefers have popped up many times in this thread. I think it is obvious that in order to claim exploits are wrong they have to be differentiated from normal strategies that people use in order to win PVP matches and/or gain the upper hand in an MMORPG. The people here have failed to do that, in fact many examples have been of people being defeated by things that weren't even exploits and it was obvious the person was just mad they weren't prepared for the strategy.
I never assumed everyone fell into the category of immature competitors. I just said its obvious that an unrepresentitive portion of forum posters do. I have already pointed out that Neocron was just one game that I have played which alerted me to the dangers of having such vague descriptions. It is still the vague descriptions that causes the problem not Neocron. I have played many different mmorpgs including AO, UO, EVE, Project Entropia, Endless Ages, Neocron, Dark Age of Camelot, Shadowbane, and Planetside.
I consider people who realize that the definition of exploits is way to vague to agree with me. The question is " are current exploit policies valid?". I have the view that banning is unacceptable in any case because the developers have the power to prevent and fix exploits instead therefore there is no greater evil to be stopped with such policies. It is the equivalent of blowing up a fat man blocking your cave exit even though you could just dig him out because you are too lazy to dig. If you don't get him out everyone might die but there is a way to do it which doesn't force you to hurt the fat man. Banning players is not as bad as blowing someone up, but it is an aggresive action and wrong.
However I still believe that it would be much better than it is now at least if exploits were limited to very specific actions that were clearly defined.
Yes I program, in fact much better than anyone else in any of my computer science classes. Debugging takes me usually 1/10th the time of other people because I think like a computer myself and know exactly where the bugs are going to be instantly. I know larger programs have many pieces that are given to different programmers and many things that effect other things. Id be willing to bet anything that that the methods and logic used for debugging mmorpgs are not the most intelligent or advanced. Some of them are probably downright stupid. Programming is one of those things where a slight increase in knowledge or developing a new method to speed communication provides an enormous difference in time required.
Yes Gen, I JUST SAID that even when a developer works towards creating a good game he is really working towards his own satisfaction, as opposed to experiencing all the happiness of those who play it. That doesn't mean we can depend on this, because some developers may think the best way to make themselves happy is just to create a game that sucks the money out of people. And besides that even if the developer wants to create the best game thats still not as good as if the developer experienced all the happiness of those who played it. For instance, the developer could only THINK he has created the best game when in fact many people become very frusterated playing it.
You need to learn the difference between a generalization and an observation. If I say since not all developers want to create the best game, A policy based on their intentions is not wise, that doesn't mean I am saying all developers are greedy.
Whats bad about banning someone who ignored multiple warnings? If I lock you in a cage and say Im going to shoot you if you don't write me a check for a million dollars, and you refuse to pay me after multiple warnings do you think I am justified in shooting you? Multiple warnings has nothing to do with it.
A nightclub is real, they ask people to leave because the alternative to this is having people get physically hurt. This is justified. If they ask the wrong person to leave or do it for no good reason it is not justified. Also if they have a simple alternative to kicking people out of the club it is not justified. For instance if the nightclub has a choice between having a bounded line out the door and just having people wander up to the door and possibly fight over who gets to go in next it is wrong of them to not have the line. This is different than exploits because it is still wrong of anyone who cuts in line or tries to fight to get ahead as well because getting to the door first is not a competition that people enter for fun. People expect to go there and get in in the order they got to the club. There is no such reason why exploiters have done something wrong, because everyone who plays an mmorpg expects to compete with other players and face undiscovered strategies.
Obviously asking people to leave that don't deserve it has more effect then just on the people who leave. If everyone in a club sees soemone get kicked out cause they are black, then half the people might leave in disgust. If everyone sees someone get kicked out for trying to start a fight, then they note that they shouldn't start a fight if they want to stay there. If in an mmorpg, you are threatened for doing perfectly fair things, or people are banned unjustly its going to ruin the game for players.
Oh btw arbitrarily claiming I have little experience in mmorpgs IS a generalization.
Understand now?
How do you expect me to react to the people who post here? They constantly use vague, circular, invalid arguments completely driven by emotion and no matter how many times I point this out they continue to use them. When they can't think of anything to say they resort to insults and childish behavior. How long do you expect me to deal with this without showing some hint of sarcasm ?
Oh I get it so what when someone calls you out on lying and trying to decieve readers you just repeat the lies... thats intelligent.
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MMORPG games I've played:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
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http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
So what you think people are going to take your word for it that "KRIM R STUPID" lol
If everyone can wallhack, then whats the problem? If it unbalances the game its not the players fault, they didn't design the game... If you start a game with your friends and then say "Hey lets everyone agree not to wall hack even though the game lets you" AND everyone agrees to this, THEN and ONLY THEN is it cheating to wall hack.
Wee sheepish propaganda... How is it that I don't know what I am talking about huh? Is there an error in my reasoning youd like to point out? Oh you have no clue what your talking about huh? So why does anyone care what you think of my posts then? If you had something to say about an argument I made in my posts you would say it. The truth is you lack the capacity and you don't like me so you just spew mindless insults. Next.
I think a better way to describe the past is that I have tried to reason with people like you. This is not reason : "Exploiting is bad because it is bad" "Griefer EXPLOITER PEOPLE DEZERVE TO DIE therefore I win the argument!!!" "GREIFING IS LIKE STEALING CANDY FROM BABIES!!! oh wait we were talking about exploiting... Uh EXPLOITING IS LIKE STEALING CANDY FROM BABIES!!! yeah thats it"
See I actually point out how peoples arguments are screwed up when I say things like the arguments against me have been flawed. Then with nothing else to say the other people just turn around and go "NUH UH URS ARE!!!" yet fail to point out what they are talking about.
Again you demonstrate your lack of reasoning ability by claiming I have exploited. I have never exploited I just realize how wrong the policies are. You justify banning exploiters because you imagine they are all griefers and bad people and when someone challenges your belief you are screwed because that person isn't necesarily an exploiter OR griefer. So what do you do? Lie to yourself and the forum and claim I am anyways.
It is obvious in the way that people are posting here that many are very immature. If they can't even admit when they are wrong about things or consider other ideas without resorting to insults, what are the chances they are going to be able to deal with losing in an mmorpg without resorting to claiming the other person cheated?
Actually I doubt anyone here understands people and therefore mmorpgs as well as I do, simply because of the lack of objectivity being shown on this board. You cannot figure out much about anything when your entire logic sytsem consists of "He does not suck up to me therefore anything he says is wrong" "He disagrees with me therefore anything he says is wrong and a bad person" etc..
I dont know where you got the rich part from, but your last paragraph pretty much describes you much better than it does me. Look back through the posts and see who has initiated all of the insults and childish behavior. It wasn't me.
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No we've all reached that conclusion ourselves by reading your posts.
By Any Means Necessary is definately the motto you live by Kriminal....you should have been a politician instead of an avid gamer.
We all know that wall hacking, aim-bots, and the like were not INTENDED to be a part of a regular game of CS. Just because there is a way to get these does not mean it's part of legal gameplay...If I were to enter a CS tourney I can guarantee you that wall hacking or aim-bots would be unanimously frowned upon...and so do you...Xaldor
What does the coding info have to do with anything? Are you trying to claim its not a design oversight? What do you think has to be done when there is a design oversight? Obviously the same thing. If your trying to claim that an exploit involves a typo in the code thats not true, that would never get past the compiler.
THe fact that you in some cases can lose gracefully doesn't mean you always do. For instance I know plenty of people in mmorpgs that will pvp only in duel type situations against people they know will not brag when they win. But if you take those same people and pk them they will bitch and whine for hours. If you take the same people and decide to brag when you beat them they will start claiming you cheated or make up excuses.
I have never exploited in a game before. Stop lying because you can think of no real arguments. Im sorry you are too stupid not to run out in front of people who can attack you with pets in non pvp zones. WHat is even the problem here, why not just kill the pet when this happens? And this is NOT a bug, obviously the developer just forgot to make it so pets can't attack when the user is in a non pvp zone.
I have explained why exploit banning is not justified many times. It is an aggresive act that is by nature wrong. The only way to justify such an act is if it prevents a greater evil. Exploits are not necessarily evil or bad. THey are simply what the developer did not intend, and we have no way to know wheather what the developer wants is good or bad. And even if you limited banning to very specific exploits that WERE bad, you could simply remove the exploits instead so it is no longer preventing this evil because there was a less evil way to prevent the bad exploits.
Unfortunately you do not get to decide when the thread is old just because you can think of no arguments and don't want to admit you are wrong and don't want to be called out either.
Every act has some motivation behind it. If the only motivation behind your argument was only to discover the truth, you A) would not constantly be resorting to insults,
would not be adding unrelated aspects such as griefing to the exploiting C) would not be trying to lie and claim I was an exploiter. If you cant even deal with debate obviously you cannot deal with any other type of competition. When your entire argument consists of something thats not even an exploit but involves someone pking its obvious where your motivations come from.
For the 1 billionth time, what developers have so far put in their contracts so far is COMPLETELY irrelevant to weather they should continue to do so.
Actually there are other court cases where people sued and one for a MMORPG company destroying what the players had created in game. Each court case depends on the situation, the contracts, and the law. And even if one court does something its actions can still be appealed, overturned, or ignored at a later date and the law can be amended when they realize it was wrong. THere is no Stone.
A game with no exploits would obviously have more customers than a game which does have exploits and bans people who use them. Don't think to tell me that a game with exploits without a banning policy would have less customers than a game with exploits and a banning policy when there is obviously something very strong working against this unproven theory - The fact that people dont like to be banned and don't like to play games in fear of being banned.
Your definition of exploit is completely useless without showing what the rules are regarding exploits. It just transfers the responsibility to define exploits to the "rules". If this is whats on the website as the definition of an exploit, and the company goes around banning whoever they feel like claiming they are exploiting it would be rediculous
Dont condemn "all" to your level of maturity. Just because a few people on the thread can't think of arguments or admit they are wrong doesn't mean that everyone thinks I am unintelligent.
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Krim I read your response to my prior post. Again it shows me how wrapped up in your self rightouesness you are. I want you to re-read my post again and PROVE to me your points are valid and correct in todays society.
And you have stated even in this very thread that you have been accused by devs/admin in a game of exploiting. So go away with the non-sensical BS that you have never done that.
And explain it conciesly to me. I dont want 20 paragraphs. Nor do I wish you to skirt the issue. I CHALLENGE you to prove to me and the rest of the mmorpg community that your view is the right one. Get right to the meat of the issue. Don't use your regular elitest speak. Just plain old fashioned english is fine. Consider it if you will a clean slate.
Exploiters should not be banned because:
Exploiting is part of a game because:
Exploiting is the devs problem not ours because:
Exploiting does not harm a game because:
We as gamers have the right to use exploits because:
At XXX point is when an exploit should be a punisable offence:
Punishment for those who have been accused once by devs as exploiters should be as follows:
Punishment for those who have been accused multiple times by devs as exploiters should be as follows:
I understand that some of the above statements you may or may not agree with. in the case of agreement just give us an idea as to why. We dont need a global explanation that requires 1000 words. But rather a concise writing of your own thoughts on the subject.
In the case you do not agrree with one of the above then again voice your disagreement and then concisely point out why.
And as a last thought your idea that those that disagree with you are just mad due to the fact that they were killed by someone ingame is logistically flawed. Even you should see the pitfalls and dangers of that.
lol, Ive yet to hear anyone agree with you, and yet you continue to blame the world, or cry out that everyone else must not be intellectually capable of grasping the subject of "exploiting". tell yea what, wrap yourself up in that blanket of self-righteousness you've created and enjoy your life as a exploiter who invents his own turths to defend your right to ignore the rules and behave how you want.
I'm unsubscribing to this one.
But remeber Krim (ironic that your name and cheating "leet gamer" styles reflect so well)... Next time someone hits you in the face, it's really your fault for three reasons. (A) You didn't specify he wasn't allowed to, (B) You didn't stop him. and finally (C) Cause your a loser and the world will forever be laughing at you
Aim bots are hacking, they have nothing to do with this discussion. True anyone can get an aim bot, but its not part of the game. What is wall hacking? Is this an exploit or an actual hack? If you are talking about hacking I hope you realize we are not.
I thought despite the name you were talking about some way to get stuck in the wall or something that did not require a 3rd party program.
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So the reason that you feel banning shouldn't be allowed.... is because you were bullied by a GM?
Its a "Bad Cop" routine you little baby, get over it. They weren't actually going to ban you on the spot for getting stuck in the wall, it was just meant to scare you and say "we're watching". If you weren't exploiting then no harm done. Despite your inability to tell the difference between an exploit and unintended strategy, you've never been banned have you? Driven by emotion? Thats you.
Instead of reporting the wall bug to the devs and staying away from it, i see you preferred to whine and cry at someone who didn't make the game, nor has any power to fix bugs. You logically deduced from this scenario that devs are petty and selfish, and just use banning to cover their own irresponsibility?
Right.
Nothing can be logically deducted by your retarded experiences, that are more an example of mean GM's rather than a widespread dev-level problem in every single mmorpg. You missed the point of the nightclub thing again, it didn't matter what the reason or cause for booting someone out was.... it was the fact that it was legal to do so.
I have given reasons to why exploiting is bad; how some of them obviously ruin the environment of the game, the various cases where they ruined the economy/devalued certain items, etc.
"If everyone can wallhack, then whats the problem?".... the problem is the game is now just a stupid program running numbers, instead of a virtual world.
And once again, i fail to see whats wrong with banning repeat exploiters who ignore warnings. The devs can fix the bug, but sometimes its harder than you think. It might require some time to completely fix. And if within that time, the warned exploiter frantically continues to use the exploit in order to gain as much as possible... then ban away.
I actually don't play PvP mmo's much, other than the usual CS, or WC3. Thats right, i'm a carebear casual gamer, who's never "lost" in a mmorpg because i've never fought, wether it was actual PvP or the powergamer race for levels and riches. If you want to think of yourself as a special enlightened minority, then do so, but thats no basis for making asinine assumptions.
And because the crowd demands it:
Being accused of exploiting is not exploiting. Exploiting is exploiting. I was accused once for exploiting because I fell out of a window or something and got stuck in an ally. I was accused once for exploiting for using cover to fight a mob by a certain volunteer gm, and later this was declared by the company not to be an exploit. I have never exploited.
Ok. Btw I have already done this a million times, and any insults made by me were in response to insults by other parties first, and only 1/10th of the scale of their insults (but true so they anger more)
Exploiters should not be banned because: Banning is an agressive act. All aggresive acts are wrong. If you commit an aggresive act only because it has to be done to prevent a greater evil, then it is no longer really an aggresive act. The only way to justify banning is if all exploits defined by the website definitions of exploiting had a bad effect on the game. All of them are not, because the definition is unlimited in scope and effectively just whatever the developers decide they want to be an exploit.
Its obvious the tone taken by mmorpg devs is not objective. They produce illogical arguments as to why exploiting is wrong such as that they are an unfair advantage when the only thing that makes them so is the fact that they themselves declared them against the rules. They are obviously acting out of frustration that they are unable to create a well balanced game. IE they are taking aggresive actions against people for using what they call exploits which are not aggresive acts nor do they have necessarily a bad effect on the game. BTW they are usually equally as angry against simple powergamers who think of things they did not foresee regarding their design of the game.
Even in the case of ONLY exploits that really are detrimental to the game, the exploits could always be removed instead by the non aggresive act of fixing the bugs they are based on. Therefore relying on the aggresive act of banning instead is wrong.
Exploiting is part of the game because: We cannot possibly know what the developers consdier a bug or not to be a bug, therefore we cannot know what all exploits are. Also some things the developer does not intend are good for the game.
Exploiting is the devs problem not ours because: They alone have the resources to actually fix the bugs behind exploits, and to have a plan for how the game should be balanced and come out. It is their responsibility to determine what is the best idea for their game. Stopping ourselves from doing anything that might let us excel in the game to worry if the devs might call it an exploit ruins the fun of the game, and we have no way of knowing because it depends on what is the developers idea for the game.
Exploits do not harm a game because: Exploits are simply defined to be using a bug in the game. A bug could be anything the developer didn't intend and this is how the definition is used in practice. What the developer didn't intend is not necessarily bad for the game. If you limit the definition of exploits to things which have carefully been determined to actually harm the game then still they can be stopped simply by fixing them rather than banning customers.
At NO point should an exploit be a punishable offense because: No matter how hard a developer works to fix an exploit they could work harder, smarter, or hire more qa to prevent or fix an exploit faster. Therefore it is by their choice that the exploit is still in the game and immoral for them to ban customers for it when there is a non aggresive way to deal with exploits.
Yes not all that disagree with me are necessarily mad because they lost in an in game battle. However many are raving about griefers etc. or going on about how much they hate exploiters. There is only one possible source of this anger... someone pking them with a strategy they didn't expect. It could be an exploit or maybe even wasn't one. If they weren't angry, then they wouldn't all be up in arms or trying to accuse me of being an "exploit griefer" etc.
I am not an exploiter, stop lying because you cannot think of an argument or admit you are wrong. I marvel at your brilliance in claiming that anyone with the name other than "MODEL CITIZEN" should be banned from all mmorpg games on site.
Hitting someone in the face is an aggresive act and therefore is wrong. Much like banning in this sense. Exploiting is not an aggresive act. Thanks for the final unconnected metaphor on the way out. Bye.
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So not only do you claim banning, an aggresive act is ok, you think its ok for gms to threaten paying customers who EVERYONE AGREES hasn't done anything wrong. When there is no set definition of exploit, the effect of such an action is to have everyone trip that everything they do might be an exploit. You think this is a good thing? You think people pay for that crap? Why do you think the market is doing so badly?
Noone can tell the difference between an exploit and an unintended strategy. Especially not the gms who claim anything is an exploit they want to. And nothing about the way exploiting is defined stops any of them from doing it.
What are you talking about regarding the wall bug in AO? I simply got stuck somewhere and paged the ark to get me out, and after the games own bug stuck me in a wall for like 20 minutes and I finally got help the little welp had the nerve to accuse me of cheating. ANyone would be pissed after some crap like that. If the ark did not represent the people who made and ran the game then what the heck buisness did he have accusing me of cheating? If he represents the company then yeah what he represents was responsible for making the game.
A minute ago all my experience came from only Neocron. Now all my experience comes from AO? Riiighht.. Yeah what was I thinking. You are totally mature and capable of rational thought.
Read this outloud: I M SOFA KING WE TODD IT
Yes indeed you are
or at least thats how you are acting atm.
Once again my experience are not used to deduce anything. The definition of exploit is used to deduce the problems here. First you claim that my experiences aren't useful, then you claim that the fact that the definition of exploit is extremely vague doesn't matter because no developer ever abuses it? MY GOD YOUR A GENIUS!!!
Its legal for nightclubs to kick people out. If they abuse it they both lose reputation and could possibly be sued.
If everyone can hide in the walls and be invincible then the game is unbalanced. Do we consider it wrong to play a class that is unbalanced in a mmorpg. No. Its the developers responsibility to balance the game we just adapt and leave if it gets boring.
I have no problem with stopping exploiters in other ways. Most games have ways to rollback only certain characters for instance. In any case this should be used over banning. But once again this is a second choice to simply removing or preventing the exploit from existence.
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MMORPG games I've played:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
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http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
Guys, just stop argueing with, Kriminal99. Let him have his post here with no more replies to him. He doesn't get it at all. None of us believe him that he isn't an exploiter. His posts over both thread have only proved he is one. He keeps throwing out baseless points and totally ignores ours that are based on fact. He claims many aggree with him but where are they? If he was actually making a good arguement, there would be at least a few people here joining him but so far it is still him. Just forget it. He so wants to exploit without worring about being banned that he tries to spin his idiotic ideas into something that makes sense but they only work in his mind.
Although, it is funny that he said he is insulting people in response to people insulting him. Except he seems to forget he was the first one to insult which happened in the first post. Remember how he said that the people who disaggreed with him are only semi-intelligent? This coming from a guy who always uses weather for whether. Hey, Krim, weather has to do with the climate and whether is what you wanted to use.
You make absolutly no sense here. It is up to the game company/developler what they want to put into their contract, License Agreement, Terms and Services, and any other fine print - NOT up to you. It is not up to you to decide what rules they set is releveant or irrelevant. It is not up to you what they continue to put into their rules. They can change their OWN rules anytime they want. "Subject to change" is the term they use. You might think it is irrelevant, but the law does not. As proven by Mythic in their ultra famous court case.
Sued for what? For getting banned for exploiting? There are none. Any other court cases were over misselaneous (sp) things. Like a player scamming another player and the victim crying and telling their parents to sue. Or like the very few cases where someone kills theirselves and the parents blame the game and try to sue to make up for their bad parenting.
*cough*
That was what Mythic's case covered. Oh yeah, IF there were any other prior cases it does not matter since Mythic's case is the most recent case. It is the one that sets the precident. It is the one with the most weight. It is the one that any possible current, and future cases will have to challenge.
That is PART of what decides who wins a court case. The rest is taken from researching any prior cases that set a precident. Any prior cases that cover the same subject. That is how a judge and/or jury makes the final decison. No matter if it is an appeals case, or a state supreame court case, or national supeream court case. Mythic's case was interstate. It was a Federal decision. Federal law supports the Terms and Conditions, License Agreement, contracts you agree to everytime you login and play a MMORPG. Right now there could be 5 new cases in 5 different states. ALL of them will use Mythic's case to make their decisions.
Until you yourself successfuly appeal the decision in Mythics case, the decision still stands. Until you yourself get an admendment to successfuly pass, the law still stands as it is.
True. But Appeals also run out. There is also statue of limitations. There are no indefinate amount of appeals. This point of yours is moot though because Mythic's court case as NOT been successfully appealed, nor overturned. Thus it still stands firm and solid as of right now. Thus MMORPG companies still own their game, set the rules, the agreements. Thus everytime you click on "yes" or "agree" the law supports whatever rules the company writes in the Terms and Services, License Agreement, or any other fine print you agree to everytime you login and play.
There is no such thing as a court decision being ignored by a jurist. A jurist/judge will face getting disbarred, kicked off the bench, if he or she on purpose ignores any prior cases that have bearing on their current case. That is the reason FOR court decisons. To form a bases for deciding all future decisions relating to it.
It takes a heck of a lot to amend a law. The law has NOT been amended. So... Again, RIGHT NOW the law is on the side of the MMORPG companies. They set the rules. You the player agree to the rules everytime you login and play. You can say "could be", "can be", but the hard fact is it has not been.
There you go! Thank you for making a step in seeing what everyone is saying. You yourself are now admitting exploiting is not good. Now keep on making more steps and you will see why companies can so ban exploiters if they decide to.
You are going in the wrong direction. It is up to the game company if they want to ban exploiters. AO banned many exploiters who found a way to reproduce the ingame money in unlimited amounts. AC2 did NOT ban exploiters who found a way to reach endgame 1 month after AC2 released. It is up to the game company what rules they set, how they want to enforce them, and if they want to ban exploiters, give them a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th chance. It is not about if "a game has exploiters and no banning policy" or if "a game has exploits and a banning policy". It is about the fact that it is up to a gaming company if they want to ban a player for exploiting or not. Joe uses an exploit to reproduce ingame money until he has 100 million gold. Jake does the same thing until he has 1 million gold. The game company bans Joe but give a warning to Jake. Because the game company feels Joe caused more damage and harm to the game economy/world than Jake did.
It is not rediculous. It is reality. And yes it is defined in the RULES. Take the time to read through all of them the next time you login to your favorite MMORPG.
It is not my definition. It is THE definition. That is why the rules are made in the first place. That is what the law looks at when/if it gets taken to court. "Were there any contracts?", "Did the player agree to adhearing to the contract?".
How does it not make sense? We are talking about WEATHER OR NOT the policies should be in mmorpgs. If they serve no purpose then a game can be made without them. This game will attract more people. And then games that still have them will die off. Who cares what developers that don't know any better have done so far? You do know that PEOPLE are behind mmorpg companies and not omniscient beings right? Often people with invalid opinions and lack of objective logical reasoning skills. Others are open to new ideas. I fail to see what the relevance of repeatedly pointing to the fact that up to this point mmorpgs have exploit clauses.
I believe people sued for losing items to some kind of crash in a different game or something, I don't remember which one someone else here was telling me about it. You are merely fabricating an enviornment where mmorpg devs are not responsible for thier negligence. This is not reality, the law is clear in such matters. Just because in one cases the circumstances did not merit payment of the players doesn't mean that in other cases they would not. I guarantee you that if I was banned from Neocron for what I did and wanted to start a class action suit, if it was held in america I would represent myself and win.
Think about what you just said for a minute. You said that if an earlier case found in favor of the players it doesn't matter because the most recent case sets the precedent. If that was true how could this case have been resolved differently then the other? Precedent has value, but not over the law. If one court misinterprets the law then its precedent is useless. ANd anyways precedent isn't as general as you are trying to make it. If there is a slight difference between the two cases there could be a different resolution. If a company runs around banning players for no reason the courts WILL draw the line.
Precedent has been overturned plenty of times. Like regarding slavery for instance. If a judge repeatedly ignored precedent without a really good reason for it yeah he would be disbarred. If you think that some yahoo judge can come up with a rediculous decision that completely contradicts the law and then everyone has to follow that you are wrong. Thats what law is all about, everything looks like its set in stone to the layman, but its lawyers jobs to show that law was is being misinterpreted by the other side.
Actually you misread what I said. I said that a game with no banning policy and no exploits is obviously better than a game with exploits and a banning policy. If a game has no exploit policy, How could it possibly have any exploits? It might have things that are in the game that the developers didn't intend, but they won't be called exploits. If the developers don't like them they will simply change them. It is the lack of banning players that makes the first one better not the lack of exploits.
Man I said this before to someone but it really applies to you more than anyone else. You need to recognize that even if you are some kind of mentally subservient manwhore to mmorpg developers it doesn't mean everyone else is. It is blatantly obvious that debating mmorpg theory is relevant. If you think you are unqualified to do this then don't say anything. That doesn't mean I am not. What developers have mistakenly chosen to do up to this point has no bearing.
You did not define the rules in your definition of exploit therefore your definition was utterly useless. Most games do not limit their definition of exploit to specific things, that is the main point of this thread. If they did I agree it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad, but I still think it would be wrong. Exploit policy as it is is the real life equivalent of a law that allows the police to arrest anyone they think is "doing something wrong". It doesn't take a genius to imagine what chaos would ensue from a law such as this.
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People are arguing with me because they fear I am right and my arguments make more sense. If it wasn't the case that mmorpgs have been using exploit policies all this time you people would look like absolute fools. 90% of your posts have just been childish insults and whining that someone disagrees with the norm.
And guess what there is no e in arguing or argument... oO Want to continue with the spelling game...
If and when I said that people arguing with me were acting semi intelligently, it was only after the people used extensive insults and refused to evaluate arguments logically. I find it hilarious that you think something like this is even on the same level of the kind of stuff being said by other people. If this doesn't show who is has no arguments and who makes sense I don't know what would.
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