... I would love to see a survey of how many people went on from WoW to other MMORPGs, peope who would otherwise never have played this type of game. ...
It does have the most subscribers but not by the massive margin that most people imagine it does. nearly 6 million of it's subscribers are in Asia; their EU and US subscriptions total around 4.5 million but a lot of those are thought to be multiples (one person owning 2+ accounts); still way more than most other MMO's though. It's success is based on a lot of things: 1. Polished gameplay, not too many game-breaking bugs in it's history. 2. Low system requirements. No problems playing it on an older PC. 3. IP. Warcraft was a very recognisable IP prior to the MMO. 4. Timing. It was released at a point in time where there really wasn't much competition for a fantasy-based game of the type; which drew it a lot of subscriptions. 5. Features + Content. It has PvE for the casual and the hardcore, as well as PvP for the casual and hardcore. It also has a lot of voluntary grinds that assuage the hardcore players by giving them something to do that doesn't really do much for them except allow them to work towards a goal with all their free time. One example is the wintersaber mount; purely a status thing, it wasn't faster than a normal epic mount, but people did the grinds because they had the time. 6. Fun. Although many people will say otherwise, WoW IS fun. The quests and humour are all entertaining, the learning curve isn't steep when getting to grips with the classes and abilities.
QFT
This really does pretty much wrap up the answer to your question. It was not just "1" thing that made WoW the success it is and was.
A moment like that may never come again in this industry. What WoW succeeded in doing is now much of the standard expected in games today.
It has become the litmus paper we test and compare other games too. I am not saying this is good or bad just what the current trend is. IMHO
Originally posted by Va-leThe genre in it's modernistic incarnation. Of coarse the graphics were intentionally "cartoony", that is quite besides the point; if their whole graphical interface was accidental i would be more than a little worried.
You're judging a 4 years old game's graphics alongside those of a freshly released game? Or games still in development that have yet to be released? Of course it's going to look dated by comparison. If you want to compare it's graphics against other current MMO's then compare it to Runescape or Ultima Online then come back and assert that WoW's graphics are the worst in the genre. How has the mmo market diversified or been energized since WoW's release then? i find this statement quite dubious. In any event i think that a lot of people would find it quite easy to deny that WoW has been good for the mmo genre. It has introduced a terrible community to mmo's and after WoW's demise to subsequent games, simplified every facet of the genre to child like levels, and completely stifled innovation.
It gave us something we'd never had before. A simpler, less cerebral introduction to the MMO genre for the uninitiated. No harsh death penalties, low system requirements and an accessible learning curve. How many people started playing WoW and then progressed to more "complex" MMO's? And seriously, if you think that bad communities began with the inception of WoW you are sorely mistaken.
I was 14 at the time meaning what? Your ideology and perception towards the world may have been tremendously stunted at 14, i don't know. needless to say i was quite capable of formulating subjective opinions at that age.
Meaning that you're calling someone "kid" who, (by his bio here) is 10 years your senior. Labelling people "kids" (or flinging random insults such as the one implied in your response above) because you dislike their arguments or style of writing is tantamount to waving a big flag proclaiming "I am an arrogant moron whose only response to criticism is to resort to nonsensical insults." If someone disagrees with your point, you can either concede that they're correct or attempt to counter their argument, but don't take every molecule of criticism as a personal attack or you'll wind up with a neurosis or two before you're out of your teens.
If WoW represents to you the pinnacle of mmo gaming, i would be very worried; but each to their own.
Pinnacle? No. That was probably pre-NGE SWG for me, but I do consider the phenomena of WoW to be a pivotal event in the history of MMO gaming.
I understand you having a viewpoint that differs to my own, i just think that looking at the wider picture; there are more negatives that arise from WoW's conception than positives.
Just as there is no direct comparison between WoW and Latter day games/games that have yet to be released, i hardly see a case to be made for comparing WoW to Ultima or Runescape. My post on that matter ws reactionary to another posters proclamation that WoW blows all other games graphically out of the water, which is clearly not the case. I am not one hundred percent certain with my timeline but Lineage 2, Everquest 2, Eve are all contemporaries of WoW that in my estimation exceed it graphically.
As for the game being a stepping stone to game's that exhibit more complexity, i'll concede that point, although there were games that weren't monstrously difficult to pick up that ran alongside it. As for bad communities of course that can not be laid solely at WoW's door, But it does attract a disproportionately large bad community.
Age is completely unrelated to maturity. The post i responded to was childish and i got right to the fulcrum of the matter by labeling it so.
Yes i would agree the WoW phenomena is a pivotal event in the history of the genre. As to whether or not it can find it's coarse again within a reasonable time frame remains to be seen.
When I started playing WoW, to my delighted surprise, I saw people everywhere. This was the key sticking point for me: a very populated game world. I was easily able to subsequently find a great guild, made good friends, and a couple of teasing online flirtatious affairs. I stayed in WoW for two years simply for its population. The more I played, the more I hated the game but I stayed and supported it because of its population. I remember instigating parties in Orgrimmar, got everybody around the mailbox to start dancing and shooting off fireworks...cracking jokes and being stupid. Ahhh, those were the days. I haven't found that kind of population since I left WoW and is just about the only thing I miss from that game.
I think this is something that gets over looked too often. Most people stick around (long term) in MMO's because of the community, guilds, friends. Not so much because the game is great. When it comes to this area, I think MMO's some times get way too much credit. Your game didn't keep the players interested, their community did.
As for marketing, yea I do think it's a big factor. True, marketing can only bring players in, it can't make them stay. However, I guarantee there are MANY MMO's out there that would love to have millions of player just "check out" their game. For any MMO out there, a bigger audience would mean more subs.
I must admit when you join a game that is lacking subscribers, no matter how good the game is; it does feel as though there is something missing. Obviously that is one area that WoW does excel, in so far that it has no lack of subs.
I think this is something that gets over looked too often. Most people stick around (long term) in MMO's because of the community, guilds, friends. Not so much because the game is great. When it comes to this area, I think MMO's some times get way too much credit. Your game didn't keep the players interested, their community did.
As for marketing, yea I do think it's a big factor. True, marketing can only bring players in, it can't make them stay. However, I guarantee there are MANY MMO's out there that would love to have millions of player just "check out" their game. For any MMO out there, a bigger audience would mean more subs.
I agree with this 100%. A good, strong community is one way to ensure that players will stick with your game, long term and short.
Originally posted by Va-le Age is completely unrelated to maturity.
No mate, it isn't.
When you are old enough you will understand.
What makes WoW so good is the quality of the product.
It's well made. It's very well made. In fact it's just about the best made video game ever. There certainly isn't a better made video game.
It's good humoured.
People call it stupid and dumb and simpler than the other MMO's. But it isn't. This is a false tell.
It feels simpler than other MMO's because the game makers understood about learning curves. They have been able to communicate the game system with the players more easily than many of their rivals.
They have of course had an extra advantage. Most people had played other MMO's before they tried WoW. They were dealing with a pre-educated market. A lot of the hard work had already been done by their competition. They have capitalised on this, which of course leads to the accusations of WoW being an identi-clone of previous MMO's. Which of course it is.
Someone asked how WoW had energised the MMO market?
That's an easy one to answer.
Two ways that it has energised the MMO market that spring directly to mind are the investment it has attracted and the standard for quality it has set.
In the aftermath of WoW's runaway success, anyone and their dog with an idea for an MMO has been able to attract investment to develop their product. For three years every publisher under the sun has been trying to break into the MMO market and repeat that success.
Every publisher and his dog has been trying to adopt the subscription model game. They have all embraced it as the future.
3 years on, that investment bubble has burst as many publishers have come to realise that there is more to making a mega hit game than simply calling it an MMO. That WoW's success is more complicated than just hitting on a new game type. (It wasn't a new game type of course, it was just new to most publishers). And this investment bubble has burst.
While this particular engerisation of the market has run it's natural course, what we are left with is the quality.
WoW has raised the bar of the genre. New titles and MMO's to launch must compete with WoW for innovation, content, art, functionality and features. This is the bar to which all other games will now be compared.
This is quite simply great for gamers. The bar has been raised, shoddy developments that might previously have been released anyway are now more likely to be canned before launch. Being an MMO. Having a few thousand people in the server, is no longer enough. Those days are over.
WoW has been a giant leap on the evolutionary ladder of multiplayer games.
Originally posted by Va-le Age is completely unrelated to maturity.
No mate, it isn't.
When you are old enough you will understand.
What makes WoW so good is the quality of the product.
It's well made. It's very well made. In fact it's just about the best made video game ever. There certainly isn't a better made video game.
It's good humoured.
People call it stupid and dumb and simpler than the other MMO's. But it isn't. This is a false tell.
It feels simpler than other MMO's because the game makers understood about learning curves. They have been able to communicate the game system with the players more easily than many of their rivals.
They have of course had an extra advantage. Most people had played other MMO's before they tried WoW. They were dealing with a pre-educated market. A lot of the hard work had already been done by their competition. They have capitalised on this, which of course leads to the accusations of WoW being an identi-clone of previous MMO's. Which of course it is.
Someone asked how WoW had energised the MMO market?
That's an easy one to answer.
Two ways that it has energised the MMO market that spring directly to mind are the investment it has attracted and the standard for quality it has set.
In the aftermath of WoW's runaway success, anyone and their dog with an idea for an MMO has been able to attract investment to develop their product. For three years every publisher under the sun has been trying to break into the MMO market and repeat that success.
Every publisher and his dog has been trying to adopt the subscription model game. They have all embraced it as the future.
3 years on, that investment bubble has burst as many publishers have come to realise that there is more to making a mega hit game than simply calling it an MMO. That WoW's success is more complicated than just hitting on a new game type. (It wasn't a new game type of course, it was just new to most publishers). And this investment bubble has burst.
While this particular engerisation of the market has run it's natural course, what we are left with is the quality.
WoW has raised the bar of the genre. New titles and MMO's to launch must compete with WoW for innovation, content, art, functionality and features. This is the bar to which all other games will now be compared.
This is quite simply great for gamers. The bar has been raised, shoddy developments that might previously have been released anyway are now more likely to be canned before launch. Being an MMO. Having a few thousand people in the server, is no longer enough. Those days are over.
WoW has been a giant leap on the evolutionary ladder of multiplayer games.
Lol i am looking forward to growing up, being merely twenty one is quite restricting.
In any event your conclusions are entirely flawed. What it has done is narrowed the market to, simple, unimaginative, uninspiring, fare. If a great game comes out Subsequent to WoW it will be in spite of it, not because of it. You talk as though no games existed prior to the conception of WoW, when in actual fact Many genre defining games were released years before.
I do not seek to completely devalue WoW it has it's merits. But it has also introduced a style of gaming that i think will become even more prevalent, that doesn't correlate with my ideologized idea of where the genre should be heading.
Clearly your concept of evolution differs to my own, hopefully whomever may be correct, post WoW that the genre does indeed evolve.
Although i hate to say such things to one of such advanced years and wisdom. A bit of advice perhaps? I imagine if you speak that condescendingly to people of any age in real life you may get yourself in to a lot of problematic situations. I merely seek to warn you, we wouldn't after all want something untoward to arise from your headmaster like attitude would we.
Who says its good? Certainly not me. I think a more appropriate question is - what makes it so popular? That's the big question. Actually, I think I already know why.
10 Million people and every professional critic. Actually they describe it as excellent or outstanding=) Its popular because its better than good. Quite simple actually.
Are we going to get in to a debate about what popularity represents? Nazism was popular, drug addiction is popular, the spice girls are popular, teenage pregnancy is popular.... WoW was and is a game aimed at the masses, it's that simple. It is aimed at your average teenager, it's not complex, it's not challenging and it's easy to get in to. Tick, tick, tick.
WOOO Drugs!!!
Just kidding. Anyway, having not read the rest of the thread (I had to quote this post, sorry), I can (not) safely say this: WoW's graphics suck, the 10 hour raids are retarded (seriously, what fun do you get out of being screamed at by some asshole over vent because you accidentally click the wrong mob or spell?), the PvP sucks (why is capturing a flag in a small box of an instance fun again? How does it benefit the factions even?). It's like a fraggin disney movie.
Who says its good? Certainly not me. I think a more appropriate question is - what makes it so popular? That's the big question. Actually, I think I already know why.
10 Million people and every professional critic. Actually they describe it as excellent or outstanding=) Its popular because its better than good. Quite simple actually.
Are we going to get in to a debate about what popularity represents? Nazism was popular, drug addiction is popular, the spice girls are popular, teenage pregnancy is popular.... WoW was and is a game aimed at the masses, it's that simple. It is aimed at your average teenager, it's not complex, it's not challenging and it's easy to get in to. Tick, tick, tick.
WOOO Drugs!!!
Just kidding. Anyway, having not read the rest of the thread (I had to quote this post, sorry), I can (not) safely say this: WoW's graphics suck, the 10 hour raids are retarded (seriously, what fun do you get out of being screamed at by some asshole over vent because you accidentally click the wrong mob or spell?), the PvP sucks (why is capturing a flag in a small box of an instance fun again? How does it benefit the factions even?). It's like a fraggin disney movie.
Just my $0.02
Lol... not complex... tehehe...
Asian mmorpgs arent complex. WoW has a lot of complexity if your dealing with hard content, high end pvp, mod making.
There is a lot to wow, with talent builds, gear setups. Gemming, enchanting, consumables.
in PvP you have many, many combinations and strats in the arena.
There is a lot to it. Its easy to pick up, but it takes knowledge and something between your ears before you can expect to be good. 10 hour raids? If your doing those with any regularity, thats just a bad guild. I have the same response about the screamed at over vent.
I can honestly say Ive never experienced any of that. As well I am a hardcore theory man, using mathmatical models and such to steer myself in the right direction gear wise/talent wise.
Honestly I find WoW to have one of the most complex systems for gearing up/skilling up your character.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Who says its good? Certainly not me. I think a more appropriate question is - what makes it so popular? That's the big question. Actually, I think I already know why.
10 Million people and every professional critic. Actually they describe it as excellent or outstanding=) Its popular because its better than good. Quite simple actually.
Are we going to get in to a debate about what popularity represents? Nazism was popular, drug addiction is popular, the spice girls are popular, teenage pregnancy is popular.... WoW was and is a game aimed at the masses, it's that simple. It is aimed at your average teenager, it's not complex, it's not challenging and it's easy to get in to. Tick, tick, tick.
WOOO Drugs!!!
Just kidding. Anyway, having not read the rest of the thread (I had to quote this post, sorry), I can (not) safely say this: WoW's graphics suck, the 10 hour raids are retarded (seriously, what fun do you get out of being screamed at by some asshole over vent because you accidentally click the wrong mob or spell?), the PvP sucks (why is capturing a flag in a small box of an instance fun again? How does it benefit the factions even?). It's like a fraggin disney movie.
Just my $0.02
Lol... not complex... tehehe...
Asian mmorpgs arent complex. WoW has a lot of complexity if your dealing with hard content, high end pvp, mod making.
There is a lot to wow, with talent builds, gear setups. Gemming, enchanting, consumables.
in PvP you have many, many combinations and strats in the arena.
There is a lot to it. Its easy to pick up, but it takes knowledge and something between your ears before you can expect to be good. 10 hour raids? If your doing those with any regularity, thats just a bad guild. I have the same response about the screamed at over vent.
I can honestly say Ive never experienced any of that. As well I am a hardcore theory man, using mathmatical models and such to steer myself in the right direction gear wise/talent wise.
Honestly I find WoW to have one of the most complex systems for gearing up/skilling up your character.
Or better yet, just use the same build as every other idiot who plays your class.
Polish + The standard Blizzard gameplay + Casuality + PvP + (people are drawn to this, especially as the idea was to get usual fps gamers with a sort of fps format)
The usual lure of mmorpgs- friends, levelling up, advancing your character,..
Originally posted by glord Just kidding. Anyway, having not read the rest of the thread (I had to quote this post, sorry), I can (not) safely say this: WoW's graphics suck, the 10 hour raids are retarded (seriously, what fun do you get out of being screamed at by some asshole over vent because you accidentally click the wrong mob or spell?), the PvP sucks (why is capturing a flag in a small box of an instance fun again? How does it benefit the factions even?). It's like a fraggin disney movie. Just my $0.02
Lol... not complex... tehehe...
Asian mmorpgs arent complex. WoW has a lot of complexity if your dealing with hard content, high end pvp, mod making.
There is a lot to wow, with talent builds, gear setups. Gemming, enchanting, consumables.
in PvP you have many, many combinations and strats in the arena.
There is a lot to it. Its easy to pick up, but it takes knowledge and something between your ears before you can expect to be good. 10 hour raids? If your doing those with any regularity, thats just a bad guild. I have the same response about the screamed at over vent.
I can honestly say Ive never experienced any of that. As well I am a hardcore theory man, using mathmatical models and such to steer myself in the right direction gear wise/talent wise.
Honestly I find WoW to have one of the most complex systems for gearing up/skilling up your character.
Or better yet, just use the same build as every other idiot who plays your class.
Or you could make the game that simple... or you could take it a step further and figure things out for yourself. I play a warlock, and people constantly laugh at my build, that is untill they raid or group with me.
If you only want to play it simply. Play with the cookie cutter build, get the cookie cutter gear. Form the cookie cutter group, and play. Its got as much depth as you want to put into it.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Originally posted by glord Just kidding. Anyway, having not read the rest of the thread (I had to quote this post, sorry), I can (not) safely say this: WoW's graphics suck, the 10 hour raids are retarded (seriously, what fun do you get out of being screamed at by some asshole over vent because you accidentally click the wrong mob or spell?), the PvP sucks (why is capturing a flag in a small box of an instance fun again? How does it benefit the factions even?). It's like a fraggin disney movie. Just my $0.02
Lol... not complex... tehehe...
Asian mmorpgs arent complex. WoW has a lot of complexity if your dealing with hard content, high end pvp, mod making.
There is a lot to wow, with talent builds, gear setups. Gemming, enchanting, consumables.
in PvP you have many, many combinations and strats in the arena.
There is a lot to it. Its easy to pick up, but it takes knowledge and something between your ears before you can expect to be good. 10 hour raids? If your doing those with any regularity, thats just a bad guild. I have the same response about the screamed at over vent.
I can honestly say Ive never experienced any of that. As well I am a hardcore theory man, using mathmatical models and such to steer myself in the right direction gear wise/talent wise.
Honestly I find WoW to have one of the most complex systems for gearing up/skilling up your character.
Or better yet, just use the same build as every other idiot who plays your class.
Or you could make the game that simple... or you could take it a step further and figure things out for yourself. I play a warlock, and people constantly laugh at my build, that is untill they raid or group with me.
If you only want to play it simply. Play with the cookie cutter build, get the cookie cutter gear. Form the cookie cutter group, and play. Its got as much depth as you want to put into it.
WoW is a cookie cutter MMO period. Whether you have a good build or not, anybody with better gear will beat you, unless your build is so awesome, that it makes you unbeatable, in which case everybody will try to get that build.
Who says its good? Certainly not me. I think a more appropriate question is - what makes it so popular? That's the big question. Actually, I think I already know why.
10 Million people and every professional critic. Actually they describe it as excellent or outstanding=) Its popular because its better than good. Quite simple actually.
Are we going to get in to a debate about what popularity represents? Nazism was popular, drug addiction is popular, the spice girls are popular, teenage pregnancy is popular.... WoW was and is a game aimed at the masses, it's that simple. It is aimed at your average teenager, it's not complex, it's not challenging and it's easy to get in to. Tick, tick, tick.
The Beatles and Elvis are popular too and a small minority of people think they suck as well. So your point is what? Loads of people enjoy WOW, vets and new players alike. Got a problem with that...seek help.
I disagree with this statement. My MMO's prior to WoW were UO and SWG, neither of which were particularly group oriented compared to WoW, whose end-game is currently very group-oriented.
You picked two great examples of what makes MMO games Massively Multiplayer.... both games have great player/guild driven cities. Depending on which guild you belonged to, you could have purchased just about anything and taken care of just about any in-game need you had. So while these games may not have the official feel of 'grouping' by your definition, I would have to say that any group that can create a player driven town/city has enhanced the feeling of Massively Multiplayer for other game players. I can't pick a time where in a year and a half that I played WoW there was ever a guild that enhanced anything in-game for me...
Or you could make the game that simple... or you could take it a step further and figure things out for yourself. I play a warlock, and people constantly laugh at my build, that is untill they raid or group with me.
If you only want to play it simply. Play with the cookie cutter build, get the cookie cutter gear. Form the cookie cutter group, and play. Its got as much depth as you want to put into it.
WoW is a cookie cutter MMO period. Whether you have a good build or not, anybody with better gear will beat you, unless your build is so awesome, that it makes you unbeatable, in which case everybody will try to get that build.
Im sorry, but "period." is never an argument. It sounds less like you have an actual reason and more just an irrational grudge. Yes you can play cookie cutter, but you can also play it smart. Just because you've chosen to play it in its most simple form doesnt mean it only exists in that form.
Just like in football, you dont play flag football and then tell me that its a non-violent sport. Or that batting in baseball is easy because of your experiences in tee-ball.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Who says its good? Certainly not me. I think a more appropriate question is - what makes it so popular? That's the big question. Actually, I think I already know why.
10 Million people and every professional critic. Actually they describe it as excellent or outstanding=) Its popular because its better than good. Quite simple actually.
Are we going to get in to a debate about what popularity represents? Nazism was popular, drug addiction is popular, the spice girls are popular, teenage pregnancy is popular.... WoW was and is a game aimed at the masses, it's that simple. It is aimed at your average teenager, it's not complex, it's not challenging and it's easy to get in to. Tick, tick, tick.
The Beatles and Elvis are popular too and a small minority of people think they suck as well. So your point is what? Loads of people enjoy WOW, vets and new players alike. Got a problem with that...seek help.
My point is certain people are sheep/average joe's and certain people aren't. The latter require a little bit more stimulation than WoW offers.
Lots of people list WOW as their favorite MMO? Again, cool, no problem.
People insist that WOW is the greatest MMO ever? Come on, seriously? If I ever believed that for a second, I would have tried it out by now. The only "great" thing I've heard about WOW is that combat is very smooth and sharp.
People insist that WOW is the greatest MMO ever? Come on, seriously? Hard to argue with 10 million subscriptions I guess. WoW is, officially, the "greatest" western MMO ever. There are apparently some Asian MMO's that have over 15 million subscribers, but even discounting the Asian market, WoW's subs still stand at nearly 5 million. Other games beat it on individual aspects, but as a finished product WoW has the kind of broad-ranging appeal that's cornered the western market so it's hard to maintain the idea that "it sucks" when you're aware that 5 million people in the US and EU alone are still paying to play it.
A) Graphics - best art design in any game ever hands down. They did the most with the little to the point their game actually looks better than newer games such as Vanguard, EQ2, and newer games comming out. Say what you will but the majority is against you. Also, pleae no erroneous argumetns comparing wow to a cd or fast food. That is like talking about politics and using the analogy of stabling horses. Seriously, where is the correlation between albums and computer games? I haven't bought a music album in almost 13 years, but i buy computer games all the time. The pricing model, demand model, etc...is entirely different. And no, wow is not mainstream...mmorpgs are not mainstream period.
B)Optimization - Best programmers = best product. Sorry but SOE's online games are absolute crap when it comes to programming. They suck beyond belief. They just do. Its a fact. The way the games look at the amount of system resources required is atrocious.
C) Game mechanics - by keeping it simple they've made it more complex. Ironic but its what happened. No counterargument here. Wow is the most complex game. Those who say it isn't have never played it right, or simply could not reach the level of skill required to succeed in wow.
D) no overmarketing, but not too little either, and honest marketing. Those three I call the power trio, as a marketing minor, with a phd in accounting I know more about business than anyone here.
E) PVP - will easily be the best in the near future. Just wait for distructible buildings and better game mechanics to be implemented soon in this department when competition is around.
F) Lore - best lore. Not a bunch of random crap that makes no sense like in EQ2. For example here is an example of an EQ2, EQ, or VG quest.
"Moria is sick. She has destroyed the morbid shard crystals of nevermonger. There is no time to talk. You must kill ten frogorcs."
Now here is a quest from wow.
"Death, this place stinks. Find me my flesh pins"
Do you see how style adds greatly to the writting? It feels great knowing that the quests are not a wheel of time lord of the rings rip off, and that there is some flavor to them. Just my point of view, don't flame.
Comments
QFT
This really does pretty much wrap up the answer to your question. It was not just "1" thing that made WoW the success it is and was.
A moment like that may never come again in this industry. What WoW succeeded in doing is now much of the standard expected in games today.
It has become the litmus paper we test and compare other games too. I am not saying this is good or bad just what the current trend is. IMHO
I understand you having a viewpoint that differs to my own, i just think that looking at the wider picture; there are more negatives that arise from WoW's conception than positives.
Just as there is no direct comparison between WoW and Latter day games/games that have yet to be released, i hardly see a case to be made for comparing WoW to Ultima or Runescape. My post on that matter ws reactionary to another posters proclamation that WoW blows all other games graphically out of the water, which is clearly not the case. I am not one hundred percent certain with my timeline but Lineage 2, Everquest 2, Eve are all contemporaries of WoW that in my estimation exceed it graphically.
As for the game being a stepping stone to game's that exhibit more complexity, i'll concede that point, although there were games that weren't monstrously difficult to pick up that ran alongside it. As for bad communities of course that can not be laid solely at WoW's door, But it does attract a disproportionately large bad community.
Age is completely unrelated to maturity. The post i responded to was childish and i got right to the fulcrum of the matter by labeling it so.
Yes i would agree the WoW phenomena is a pivotal event in the history of the genre. As to whether or not it can find it's coarse again within a reasonable time frame remains to be seen.
As for marketing, yea I do think it's a big factor. True, marketing can only bring players in, it can't make them stay. However, I guarantee there are MANY MMO's out there that would love to have millions of player just "check out" their game. For any MMO out there, a bigger audience would mean more subs.
I must admit when you join a game that is lacking subscribers, no matter how good the game is; it does feel as though there is something missing. Obviously that is one area that WoW does excel, in so far that it has no lack of subs.
Eve is offering an experience that really cant be found elsewhere. It is a niche game of sorts, but has a solid reputation for PvP.
LOTRO is basically following in the footsteps of WoW with a solid release, polish, smooth gameplay.
EQ2....
Currently Playing: Guild Wars.
Played:Guild Wars, Dungeon Runners, WoW, WC3, Starcraft, RuneScape, Wurm.
No mate, it isn't.
When you are old enough you will understand.
What makes WoW so good is the quality of the product.
It's well made. It's very well made. In fact it's just about the best made video game ever. There certainly isn't a better made video game.
It's good humoured.
People call it stupid and dumb and simpler than the other MMO's. But it isn't. This is a false tell.
It feels simpler than other MMO's because the game makers understood about learning curves. They have been able to communicate the game system with the players more easily than many of their rivals.
They have of course had an extra advantage. Most people had played other MMO's before they tried WoW. They were dealing with a pre-educated market. A lot of the hard work had already been done by their competition. They have capitalised on this, which of course leads to the accusations of WoW being an identi-clone of previous MMO's. Which of course it is.
Someone asked how WoW had energised the MMO market?
That's an easy one to answer.
Two ways that it has energised the MMO market that spring directly to mind are the investment it has attracted and the standard for quality it has set.
In the aftermath of WoW's runaway success, anyone and their dog with an idea for an MMO has been able to attract investment to develop their product. For three years every publisher under the sun has been trying to break into the MMO market and repeat that success.
Every publisher and his dog has been trying to adopt the subscription model game. They have all embraced it as the future.
3 years on, that investment bubble has burst as many publishers have come to realise that there is more to making a mega hit game than simply calling it an MMO. That WoW's success is more complicated than just hitting on a new game type. (It wasn't a new game type of course, it was just new to most publishers). And this investment bubble has burst.
While this particular engerisation of the market has run it's natural course, what we are left with is the quality.
WoW has raised the bar of the genre. New titles and MMO's to launch must compete with WoW for innovation, content, art, functionality and features. This is the bar to which all other games will now be compared.
This is quite simply great for gamers. The bar has been raised, shoddy developments that might previously have been released anyway are now more likely to be canned before launch. Being an MMO. Having a few thousand people in the server, is no longer enough. Those days are over.
WoW has been a giant leap on the evolutionary ladder of multiplayer games.
No mate, it isn't.
When you are old enough you will understand.
What makes WoW so good is the quality of the product.
It's well made. It's very well made. In fact it's just about the best made video game ever. There certainly isn't a better made video game.
It's good humoured.
People call it stupid and dumb and simpler than the other MMO's. But it isn't. This is a false tell.
It feels simpler than other MMO's because the game makers understood about learning curves. They have been able to communicate the game system with the players more easily than many of their rivals.
They have of course had an extra advantage. Most people had played other MMO's before they tried WoW. They were dealing with a pre-educated market. A lot of the hard work had already been done by their competition. They have capitalised on this, which of course leads to the accusations of WoW being an identi-clone of previous MMO's. Which of course it is.
Someone asked how WoW had energised the MMO market?
That's an easy one to answer.
Two ways that it has energised the MMO market that spring directly to mind are the investment it has attracted and the standard for quality it has set.
In the aftermath of WoW's runaway success, anyone and their dog with an idea for an MMO has been able to attract investment to develop their product. For three years every publisher under the sun has been trying to break into the MMO market and repeat that success.
Every publisher and his dog has been trying to adopt the subscription model game. They have all embraced it as the future.
3 years on, that investment bubble has burst as many publishers have come to realise that there is more to making a mega hit game than simply calling it an MMO. That WoW's success is more complicated than just hitting on a new game type. (It wasn't a new game type of course, it was just new to most publishers). And this investment bubble has burst.
While this particular engerisation of the market has run it's natural course, what we are left with is the quality.
WoW has raised the bar of the genre. New titles and MMO's to launch must compete with WoW for innovation, content, art, functionality and features. This is the bar to which all other games will now be compared.
This is quite simply great for gamers. The bar has been raised, shoddy developments that might previously have been released anyway are now more likely to be canned before launch. Being an MMO. Having a few thousand people in the server, is no longer enough. Those days are over.
WoW has been a giant leap on the evolutionary ladder of multiplayer games.
Lol i am looking forward to growing up, being merely twenty one is quite restricting.
In any event your conclusions are entirely flawed. What it has done is narrowed the market to, simple, unimaginative, uninspiring, fare. If a great game comes out Subsequent to WoW it will be in spite of it, not because of it. You talk as though no games existed prior to the conception of WoW, when in actual fact Many genre defining games were released years before.
I do not seek to completely devalue WoW it has it's merits. But it has also introduced a style of gaming that i think will become even more prevalent, that doesn't correlate with my ideologized idea of where the genre should be heading.
Clearly your concept of evolution differs to my own, hopefully whomever may be correct, post WoW that the genre does indeed evolve.
Although i hate to say such things to one of such advanced years and wisdom. A bit of advice perhaps? I imagine if you speak that condescendingly to people of any age in real life you may get yourself in to a lot of problematic situations. I merely seek to warn you, we wouldn't after all want something untoward to arise from your headmaster like attitude would we.
well i like the WoW's gameplay...
METAL
10 Million people and every professional critic. Actually they describe it as excellent or outstanding=) Its popular because its better than good. Quite simple actually.
Are we going to get in to a debate about what popularity represents? Nazism was popular, drug addiction is popular, the spice girls are popular, teenage pregnancy is popular.... WoW was and is a game aimed at the masses, it's that simple. It is aimed at your average teenager, it's not complex, it's not challenging and it's easy to get in to. Tick, tick, tick.
WOOO Drugs!!!Just kidding. Anyway, having not read the rest of the thread (I had to quote this post, sorry), I can (not) safely say this: WoW's graphics suck, the 10 hour raids are retarded (seriously, what fun do you get out of being screamed at by some asshole over vent because you accidentally click the wrong mob or spell?), the PvP sucks (why is capturing a flag in a small box of an instance fun again? How does it benefit the factions even?). It's like a fraggin disney movie.
Just my $0.02
10 Million people and every professional critic. Actually they describe it as excellent or outstanding=) Its popular because its better than good. Quite simple actually.
Are we going to get in to a debate about what popularity represents? Nazism was popular, drug addiction is popular, the spice girls are popular, teenage pregnancy is popular.... WoW was and is a game aimed at the masses, it's that simple. It is aimed at your average teenager, it's not complex, it's not challenging and it's easy to get in to. Tick, tick, tick.
WOOO Drugs!!!Just kidding. Anyway, having not read the rest of the thread (I had to quote this post, sorry), I can (not) safely say this: WoW's graphics suck, the 10 hour raids are retarded (seriously, what fun do you get out of being screamed at by some asshole over vent because you accidentally click the wrong mob or spell?), the PvP sucks (why is capturing a flag in a small box of an instance fun again? How does it benefit the factions even?). It's like a fraggin disney movie.
Just my $0.02
Lol... not complex... tehehe...Asian mmorpgs arent complex. WoW has a lot of complexity if your dealing with hard content, high end pvp, mod making.
There is a lot to wow, with talent builds, gear setups. Gemming, enchanting, consumables.
in PvP you have many, many combinations and strats in the arena.
There is a lot to it. Its easy to pick up, but it takes knowledge and something between your ears before you can expect to be good. 10 hour raids? If your doing those with any regularity, thats just a bad guild. I have the same response about the screamed at over vent.
I can honestly say Ive never experienced any of that. As well I am a hardcore theory man, using mathmatical models and such to steer myself in the right direction gear wise/talent wise.
Honestly I find WoW to have one of the most complex systems for gearing up/skilling up your character.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
10 Million people and every professional critic. Actually they describe it as excellent or outstanding=) Its popular because its better than good. Quite simple actually.
Are we going to get in to a debate about what popularity represents? Nazism was popular, drug addiction is popular, the spice girls are popular, teenage pregnancy is popular.... WoW was and is a game aimed at the masses, it's that simple. It is aimed at your average teenager, it's not complex, it's not challenging and it's easy to get in to. Tick, tick, tick.
WOOO Drugs!!!Just kidding. Anyway, having not read the rest of the thread (I had to quote this post, sorry), I can (not) safely say this: WoW's graphics suck, the 10 hour raids are retarded (seriously, what fun do you get out of being screamed at by some asshole over vent because you accidentally click the wrong mob or spell?), the PvP sucks (why is capturing a flag in a small box of an instance fun again? How does it benefit the factions even?). It's like a fraggin disney movie.
Just my $0.02
Lol... not complex... tehehe...Asian mmorpgs arent complex. WoW has a lot of complexity if your dealing with hard content, high end pvp, mod making.
There is a lot to wow, with talent builds, gear setups. Gemming, enchanting, consumables.
in PvP you have many, many combinations and strats in the arena.
There is a lot to it. Its easy to pick up, but it takes knowledge and something between your ears before you can expect to be good. 10 hour raids? If your doing those with any regularity, thats just a bad guild. I have the same response about the screamed at over vent.
I can honestly say Ive never experienced any of that. As well I am a hardcore theory man, using mathmatical models and such to steer myself in the right direction gear wise/talent wise.
Honestly I find WoW to have one of the most complex systems for gearing up/skilling up your character.
Or better yet, just use the same build as every other idiot who plays your class.
Polish +
The standard Blizzard gameplay +
Casuality +
PvP + (people are drawn to this, especially as the idea was to get usual fps gamers with a sort of fps format)
The usual lure of mmorpgs- friends, levelling up, advancing your character,..
Asian mmorpgs arent complex. WoW has a lot of complexity if your dealing with hard content, high end pvp, mod making.
There is a lot to wow, with talent builds, gear setups. Gemming, enchanting, consumables.
in PvP you have many, many combinations and strats in the arena.
There is a lot to it. Its easy to pick up, but it takes knowledge and something between your ears before you can expect to be good. 10 hour raids? If your doing those with any regularity, thats just a bad guild. I have the same response about the screamed at over vent.
I can honestly say Ive never experienced any of that. As well I am a hardcore theory man, using mathmatical models and such to steer myself in the right direction gear wise/talent wise.
Honestly I find WoW to have one of the most complex systems for gearing up/skilling up your character.
Or better yet, just use the same build as every other idiot who plays your class.
Or you could make the game that simple... or you could take it a step further and figure things out for yourself. I play a warlock, and people constantly laugh at my build, that is untill they raid or group with me.If you only want to play it simply. Play with the cookie cutter build, get the cookie cutter gear. Form the cookie cutter group, and play. Its got as much depth as you want to put into it.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Asian mmorpgs arent complex. WoW has a lot of complexity if your dealing with hard content, high end pvp, mod making.
There is a lot to wow, with talent builds, gear setups. Gemming, enchanting, consumables.
in PvP you have many, many combinations and strats in the arena.
There is a lot to it. Its easy to pick up, but it takes knowledge and something between your ears before you can expect to be good. 10 hour raids? If your doing those with any regularity, thats just a bad guild. I have the same response about the screamed at over vent.
I can honestly say Ive never experienced any of that. As well I am a hardcore theory man, using mathmatical models and such to steer myself in the right direction gear wise/talent wise.
Honestly I find WoW to have one of the most complex systems for gearing up/skilling up your character.
Or better yet, just use the same build as every other idiot who plays your class.
Or you could make the game that simple... or you could take it a step further and figure things out for yourself. I play a warlock, and people constantly laugh at my build, that is untill they raid or group with me.If you only want to play it simply. Play with the cookie cutter build, get the cookie cutter gear. Form the cookie cutter group, and play. Its got as much depth as you want to put into it.
WoW is a cookie cutter MMO period. Whether you have a good build or not, anybody with better gear will beat you, unless your build is so awesome, that it makes you unbeatable, in which case everybody will try to get that build.
10 Million people and every professional critic. Actually they describe it as excellent or outstanding=) Its popular because its better than good. Quite simple actually.
Are we going to get in to a debate about what popularity represents? Nazism was popular, drug addiction is popular, the spice girls are popular, teenage pregnancy is popular.... WoW was and is a game aimed at the masses, it's that simple. It is aimed at your average teenager, it's not complex, it's not challenging and it's easy to get in to. Tick, tick, tick.
The Beatles and Elvis are popular too and a small minority of people think they suck as well. So your point is what? Loads of people enjoy WOW, vets and new players alike. Got a problem with that...seek help.
You picked two great examples of what makes MMO games Massively Multiplayer.... both games have great player/guild driven cities. Depending on which guild you belonged to, you could have purchased just about anything and taken care of just about any in-game need you had. So while these games may not have the official feel of 'grouping' by your definition, I would have to say that any group that can create a player driven town/city has enhanced the feeling of Massively Multiplayer for other game players. I can't pick a time where in a year and a half that I played WoW there was ever a guild that enhanced anything in-game for me...
[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/28371832@N02/2648951313/[/url]
WoW is a cookie cutter MMO period. Whether you have a good build or not, anybody with better gear will beat you, unless your build is so awesome, that it makes you unbeatable, in which case everybody will try to get that build.
Im sorry, but "period." is never an argument. It sounds less like you have an actual reason and more just an irrational grudge. Yes you can play cookie cutter, but you can also play it smart. Just because you've chosen to play it in its most simple form doesnt mean it only exists in that form.Just like in football, you dont play flag football and then tell me that its a non-violent sport. Or that batting in baseball is easy because of your experiences in tee-ball.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Its easy.
10 Million people and every professional critic. Actually they describe it as excellent or outstanding=) Its popular because its better than good. Quite simple actually.
Are we going to get in to a debate about what popularity represents? Nazism was popular, drug addiction is popular, the spice girls are popular, teenage pregnancy is popular.... WoW was and is a game aimed at the masses, it's that simple. It is aimed at your average teenager, it's not complex, it's not challenging and it's easy to get in to. Tick, tick, tick.
The Beatles and Elvis are popular too and a small minority of people think they suck as well. So your point is what? Loads of people enjoy WOW, vets and new players alike. Got a problem with that...seek help.
My point is certain people are sheep/average joe's and certain people aren't. The latter require a little bit more stimulation than WoW offers.Every time I read one of these threads...
Lots of people like WOW? Cool, no problem.
Lots of people list WOW as their favorite MMO? Again, cool, no problem.
People insist that WOW is the greatest MMO ever? Come on, seriously? If I ever believed that for a second, I would have tried it out by now. The only "great" thing I've heard about WOW is that combat is very smooth and sharp.
This is what makes wow so good.
A) Graphics - best art design in any game ever hands down. They did the most with the little to the point their game actually looks better than newer games such as Vanguard, EQ2, and newer games comming out. Say what you will but the majority is against you. Also, pleae no erroneous argumetns comparing wow to a cd or fast food. That is like talking about politics and using the analogy of stabling horses. Seriously, where is the correlation between albums and computer games? I haven't bought a music album in almost 13 years, but i buy computer games all the time. The pricing model, demand model, etc...is entirely different. And no, wow is not mainstream...mmorpgs are not mainstream period.
B)Optimization - Best programmers = best product. Sorry but SOE's online games are absolute crap when it comes to programming. They suck beyond belief. They just do. Its a fact. The way the games look at the amount of system resources required is atrocious.
C) Game mechanics - by keeping it simple they've made it more complex. Ironic but its what happened. No counterargument here. Wow is the most complex game. Those who say it isn't have never played it right, or simply could not reach the level of skill required to succeed in wow.
D) no overmarketing, but not too little either, and honest marketing. Those three I call the power trio, as a marketing minor, with a phd in accounting I know more about business than anyone here.
E) PVP - will easily be the best in the near future. Just wait for distructible buildings and better game mechanics to be implemented soon in this department when competition is around.
F) Lore - best lore. Not a bunch of random crap that makes no sense like in EQ2. For example here is an example of an EQ2, EQ, or VG quest.
"Moria is sick. She has destroyed the morbid shard crystals of nevermonger. There is no time to talk. You must kill ten frogorcs."
Now here is a quest from wow.
"Death, this place stinks. Find me my flesh pins"
Do you see how style adds greatly to the writting? It feels great knowing that the quests are not a wheel of time lord of the rings rip off, and that there is some flavor to them. Just my point of view, don't flame.
Your argument is flawed because it can be argued wow actually offers more stimulation at a great rate. In fact i can prove it with numbers.