Remember that little line that states roughly things may change during gameplay. You signed it. Live with the consequences. Anything packaged in the item you bought is not considered by a court of law part of gameplay. You want your money back if that is the case...take it to them. They have no legal standing when it comes to that.
Again, show me where in the EULA does it say that if you use a bug you can be penalized. And again, do not confused working around a game mechanic with working with a broken game mechanic.
Can't find a EULA on my AoC manual and am taking a break on the laptop so I'm not at the desktop to start Conan and read the EULA but the EULAs are nearly indentical on most of these aspects.
Well anyway.
Pirates of the Burning Sea has a "violation of spirit of the game" line under number 6 in its EULA towards the end of its manual. The post by llintner showed what was not in spirit not to mention alot of posts in this thread. (I think my post that pointed towards being a catalyst delaying everybody's banking usage is one such void in spirit)
It's their house and their rules. They have the power to ban anyone at any time for any reason or no reason at all. And thats that.
Yeah, and that's basically what is happening.
They screwed up bad and instead of just saying so they are putting the blame on the players for their mistakes.
Okay. Here's the deal.
You haven't played many mmo's. You have never read the agreements for ANY game you have played it seems.
This is in about every game ive played. If you exploit or abuse anything ingame to give you a unfair advantage. You will be punished in whatever way they feel like.
You are telling me that you and your pals didn't exploit? Please. Come back when you aren't that naive.
If you can get lots of money/exp from something. And you still use it, that's an abuse. Abusing something will get you punished. Deal with it and stop whining about they are diong wrong. Because you won't get anywhere whining on these forums troll.
The speed of the mole and the power of steel is my weapon
That is the MMO dictionarys definition of Exploiting. Almost word for word in every games EULA you click accept to without reading. Even tells you in that EULA you can get banned for doing it. On the other hand FunCom has been known to ban people for reporting an exploit , go figure
Really. There's so many lines for "our sole discretion" that trying to argue through the EULA is a path no one can tread successfully. One should abandon the field in that battle.
the bottom line is that they released the game too early, with too many bugs. it's still a beta quality game that we are expected to pay for while they fix it. it's wrong.
Originally posted by euangelion What type of player I am? haha seriously you guys need to get a grip on reality. This is a game created for peoples enjoyment, to just get away from RL for a bit. You act as if they just murdered your family. No I'm not ok with them exploiting, exploits should be fixed and damages should be reversed. The gold made through exploits should be taken but that's it, they broke no law...
Listen ...First of all, this is NOT a single player roleplaying game like Oblivion where everything you do doesn't have consequenses for another soul out there...
It's still as you say, only a game..It's also a MMO game, and these games tend to reflect upon reality, like for instance, ingame gold WILL get a REAL market value, you see now ??? These punks that exploited the bank system and could have made REAL money out of this deal..
Also..If people will start to quit the game, due to some exploiters that corrupts the economy, well then FUNCOM clearly looses money, real money..And this is FUNCOM's huge investment, they (can only guess) have put maybe 10 mil in developing fee for this GAME:.
So..By breaking the EULA they are in some ways also breaking the LAW, infact the EULA is the one and only LEGAL document that every player has to sign, in cases like this..
I'm glad these exploiters are being punished in a harsh manner. Sends out a nice warning for other would be exploiters. It's good to know Funcom are keeping an eye on these things.
I hope so much thay STAY banned... People who exploit any bug, shouldnt be allowed to play, it's an mmorpg game, and exploiting in those games effects alot of people.
What type of player I am? haha seriously you guys need to get a grip on reality. This is a game created for peoples enjoyment, to just get away from RL for a bit. You act as if they just murdered your family. No I'm not ok with them exploiting, exploits should be fixed and damages should be reversed. The gold made through exploits should be taken but that's it, they broke no law...
Just imagine what kind of enjoyment would be when soccer player can take the ball with hands and get the score, so we all should laugh because as you said it's just a game?! RULES are what makes every game unique and playable, enjoyment comes later.
I say those cheaters got what they deserved! People wont exploit lightly after this, so this little banning spree will be just what we need to keep things on the right path!
And I get the sneaking suspicion that the OP was amongst those banned..
Looking at the information given about the situation on this thread, it feels to me that Funcom is more interested in catching and punishing people rather than fixing the bug. A whole team of investigators to go through all your guildies and buddies? Threatening players with bans? Why not have a whole team of bug fixers monitoring the influx of cash, levels, player actions so that any suspicious activity can be flagged as exploiting bugs and be fixed ASAP.
Did Funcom openly state to everyone that such an action of generating gold is an exploit, and using it could result in a ban? Without giving fair warning, I don't think its the right to punish the players with bans. Trying to drive your players out of the game less than a month after launch isn't really good practice either.
Some exploits aren't as clear as others, for example lets say an easily killed mob drops a really disproportionate amount of gold for its level, making it ideal for farming. Is it a bug? Could be a couple of extra zeroes. Are you exploiting for killing the mob and taking its gold for hours on end? Questionable isn't it?
Even if AoC will never be my game, I'm happy for the players due the stance Funcom took with exploiting. Looks like there is bright future ahead.
I've seen 2 cases where developing teams have looked exploiting game mechanic loopholes through their fingers: First is small developers with small playerbase and not in position of losing any more players. The other is the games that are too huge for their own good - with a population in several millions, you can't have the staff to deal but with the fringe cases. Funnily enough the "It's only a game and it allows this" argument crops up everytime...
AoC isn't actually the first game to kick exploiters out, that has been standard practise in UO for a good while now to gold dupers and other lowlife. If your previous games have been more lenient, do not expect all of them to be.
Originally posted by Luxthor Just imagine what kind of enjoyment would be when soccer player can take the ball with hands and get the score, so we all should laugh because as you said it's just a game?! RULES are what makes every game unique and playable, enjoyment comes later.
Thumbs Up Funcom for banning those cheaters!
To extend the analogy further, I would like to point out that a game like soccer has referees to enforce said rules, and players are given second chances (yellow and red cards for their offenses).
Also, soccer has defined rules as to what is or is not allowed. Hand balls are clearly stated as breaking the rules, and even describes whether its the ball flying to your hand, or your hand reaching out to touch the ball. Such is the exactness of rulings.
The EULA is probably more generic something along the lines of "If you're cheating, we have the right to punish you." Without documenting the whole list of what is or is not cheating, and constantly updating it, I don't think its right to catch and punish players.
That particular exploit was very much distinguisable. No excuses there. People exploited and were fully aware that they were doing it.
To fix bugs you need programmers. You don't need such an experienced personnel to run through logs and investigate cases of abuse. Besides, companies usually have different departments, each with an individual role. People should be glad Funcom is not NCsoft.
To WuM1nG: That particular exploit was very much distinguisable. No excuses there. People exploited and were fully aware that they were doing it. To fix bugs you need programmers. You don't need such an experienced personnel to run through logs and investigate cases of abuse. Besides, companies usually have different departments, each with an individual role. People should be glad Funcom is not NCsoft.
I agree that the people executing the exploit are definitely in the wrong for abusing and not reporting the bug. What I am not pleased with is Funcom not giving players a first offense leeway, and indiscriminately punishing the whole guild as a result. Seems abit draconian to me!
My point about investigation teams is that from the OP I had the impression they had dedicated personnel to pour through logs to find incriminating evidence. Why not have said personnel monitor player levels and gold instead to find places that need balancing and bug fixes?
Also I'm piqued, what about NCsoft that not like Funcom? I'm not terribly familiar with them, if you will excuse me.
What type of player I am? haha seriously you guys need to get a grip on reality. This is a game created for peoples enjoyment, to just get away from RL for a bit. You act as if they just murdered your family. No I'm not ok with them exploiting, exploits should be fixed and damages should be reversed. The gold made through exploits should be taken but that's it, they broke no law...
is it safe to say that you were one of those that were affected by this? is it safe to say that its clear NO ONE on this thread likes exploiters and is thus against you? is it safe to say that your posts after the original are just there to create more flaming?
is it also safe to say that you dish off the hard work to your other engineers as EVERY engineer should be able to type up reports on projects and EVERY mathematician should be able to express at least some of their equations in words and so you should be able to come up with a slightly better excuses than i'm an engineer dont hurt me (i've tried it and it doesnt work).
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I can't get past the fact that people are using the excuse "The bug was there, so I used it to get ahead. Nothing wrong with that!" It is wrong to take advantage of a situation you KNOW is abnormal.
Now these people cheated at a video game, they didn't commit a crime but this kind of excuse has been put forth as a defense for everything from theft to rape. It never works.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a fish a man and he will eat for a month!
NCsoft is a lot harsher. If you abuse a bug, no matter how small, you're parma banned. Perma-banned accounts are never reinstated, no matter the reason. Even if they banned by mistake, the account is gone (I don't heard of a case of them making a mistake however).
This is the only way to keep the player field level in a PvP game. Zero tolerance for cheaters and abusers. If you're unsure whether something is a bug, DON'T use or risk loosing the account permanently.
I agree that the people executing the exploit are definitely in the wrong for abusing and not reporting the bug. What I am not pleased with is Funcom not giving players a first offense leeway, and indiscriminately punishing the whole guild as a result. Seems abit draconian to me! My point about investigation teams is that from the OP I had the impression they had dedicated personnel to pour through logs to find incriminating evidence. Why not have said personnel monitor player levels and gold instead to find places that need balancing and bug fixes? Also I'm piqued, what about NCsoft that not like Funcom? I'm not terribly familiar with them, if you will excuse me.
Hmm to tell your friends about a broken game mechanic and to advance to level cap and to famr gold by a busted system.
Ok, dont bann their accounts, just leave them in Tortage Hell as a level 1, never to leave the Island!
Cheating is cheating, though I'd have to say this early on it's probably not wise to go banning accounts. The game will have more exploitable mechanics. Makes much more sense to keep the exploiting types around to help discover more of them. Either that or I've been watching too much of "The Wire" lately.
Comments
Remember that little line that states roughly things may change during gameplay. You signed it. Live with the consequences. Anything packaged in the item you bought is not considered by a court of law part of gameplay. You want your money back if that is the case...take it to them. They have no legal standing when it comes to that.
They screwed up bad and instead of just saying so they are putting the blame on the players for their mistakes.
MMEEEEEHHHHH!!!
Can't find a EULA on my AoC manual and am taking a break on the laptop so I'm not at the desktop to start Conan and read the EULA but the EULAs are nearly indentical on most of these aspects.
Well anyway.
Pirates of the Burning Sea has a "violation of spirit of the game" line under number 6 in its EULA towards the end of its manual. The post by llintner showed what was not in spirit not to mention alot of posts in this thread. (I think my post that pointed towards being a catalyst delaying everybody's banking usage is one such void in spirit)
Edit: Trimmed down that quoting!
AC2 Player RIP Final Death Jan 31st 2017
Refugee of Auberean
Refugee of Dereth
They screwed up bad and instead of just saying so they are putting the blame on the players for their mistakes.
Okay. Here's the deal.
You haven't played many mmo's. You have never read the agreements for ANY game you have played it seems.
This is in about every game ive played. If you exploit or abuse anything ingame to give you a unfair advantage. You will be punished in whatever way they feel like.
You are telling me that you and your pals didn't exploit? Please. Come back when you aren't that naive.
If you can get lots of money/exp from something. And you still use it, that's an abuse. Abusing something will get you punished. Deal with it and stop whining about they are diong wrong. Because you won't get anywhere whining on these forums troll.
The speed of the mole and the power of steel is my weapon
That is the MMO dictionarys definition of Exploiting. Almost word for word in every games EULA you click accept to without reading. Even tells you in that EULA you can get banned for doing it. On the other hand FunCom has been known to ban people for reporting an exploit , go figure
Really. There's so many lines for "our sole discretion" that trying to argue through the EULA is a path no one can tread successfully. One should abandon the field in that battle.
Edit: grammar
AC2 Player RIP Final Death Jan 31st 2017
Refugee of Auberean
Refugee of Dereth
the bottom line is that they released the game too early, with too many bugs. it's still a beta quality game that we are expected to pay for while they fix it. it's wrong.
Listen ...First of all, this is NOT a single player roleplaying game like Oblivion where everything you do doesn't have consequenses for another soul out there...
It's still as you say, only a game..It's also a MMO game, and these games tend to reflect upon reality, like for instance, ingame gold WILL get a REAL market value, you see now ??? These punks that exploited the bank system and could have made REAL money out of this deal..
Also..If people will start to quit the game, due to some exploiters that corrupts the economy, well then FUNCOM clearly looses money, real money..And this is FUNCOM's huge investment, they (can only guess) have put maybe 10 mil in developing fee for this GAME:.
So..By breaking the EULA they are in some ways also breaking the LAW, infact the EULA is the one and only LEGAL document that every player has to sign, in cases like this..
So...It's much much more than just a game..
I'm glad these exploiters are being punished in a harsh manner. Sends out a nice warning for other would be exploiters. It's good to know Funcom are keeping an eye on these things.
Hope they all get banned and that Funcom makes an example of all exploiters.
I hope so much thay STAY banned... People who exploit any bug, shouldnt be allowed to play, it's an mmorpg game, and exploiting in those games effects alot of people.
So its nice to se that Funcom does their work
Just imagine what kind of enjoyment would be when soccer player can take the ball with hands and get the score, so we all should laugh because as you said it's just a game?! RULES are what makes every game unique and playable, enjoyment comes later.
Thumbs Up Funcom for banning those cheaters!
---
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
I say those cheaters got what they deserved! People wont exploit lightly after this, so this little banning spree will be just what we need to keep things on the right path!
And I get the sneaking suspicion that the OP was amongst those banned..
Looking at the information given about the situation on this thread, it feels to me that Funcom is more interested in catching and punishing people rather than fixing the bug. A whole team of investigators to go through all your guildies and buddies? Threatening players with bans? Why not have a whole team of bug fixers monitoring the influx of cash, levels, player actions so that any suspicious activity can be flagged as exploiting bugs and be fixed ASAP.
Did Funcom openly state to everyone that such an action of generating gold is an exploit, and using it could result in a ban? Without giving fair warning, I don't think its the right to punish the players with bans. Trying to drive your players out of the game less than a month after launch isn't really good practice either.
Some exploits aren't as clear as others, for example lets say an easily killed mob drops a really disproportionate amount of gold for its level, making it ideal for farming. Is it a bug? Could be a couple of extra zeroes. Are you exploiting for killing the mob and taking its gold for hours on end? Questionable isn't it?
Even if AoC will never be my game, I'm happy for the players due the stance Funcom took with exploiting. Looks like there is bright future ahead.
I've seen 2 cases where developing teams have looked exploiting game mechanic loopholes through their fingers: First is small developers with small playerbase and not in position of losing any more players. The other is the games that are too huge for their own good - with a population in several millions, you can't have the staff to deal but with the fringe cases. Funnily enough the "It's only a game and it allows this" argument crops up everytime...
AoC isn't actually the first game to kick exploiters out, that has been standard practise in UO for a good while now to gold dupers and other lowlife. If your previous games have been more lenient, do not expect all of them to be.
Playing: AC2
Played: UO, DaoC, Horizons, Ryzom, WAR, LotRO, Eve, VG...
To extend the analogy further, I would like to point out that a game like soccer has referees to enforce said rules, and players are given second chances (yellow and red cards for their offenses).
Also, soccer has defined rules as to what is or is not allowed. Hand balls are clearly stated as breaking the rules, and even describes whether its the ball flying to your hand, or your hand reaching out to touch the ball. Such is the exactness of rulings.
The EULA is probably more generic something along the lines of "If you're cheating, we have the right to punish you." Without documenting the whole list of what is or is not cheating, and constantly updating it, I don't think its right to catch and punish players.
To WuM1nG:
That particular exploit was very much distinguisable. No excuses there. People exploited and were fully aware that they were doing it.
To fix bugs you need programmers. You don't need such an experienced personnel to run through logs and investigate cases of abuse. Besides, companies usually have different departments, each with an individual role. People should be glad Funcom is not NCsoft.
I agree that the people executing the exploit are definitely in the wrong for abusing and not reporting the bug. What I am not pleased with is Funcom not giving players a first offense leeway, and indiscriminately punishing the whole guild as a result. Seems abit draconian to me!
My point about investigation teams is that from the OP I had the impression they had dedicated personnel to pour through logs to find incriminating evidence. Why not have said personnel monitor player levels and gold instead to find places that need balancing and bug fixes?
Also I'm piqued, what about NCsoft that not like Funcom? I'm not terribly familiar with them, if you will excuse me.
is it also safe to say that you dish off the hard work to your other engineers as EVERY engineer should be able to type up reports on projects and EVERY mathematician should be able to express at least some of their equations in words and so you should be able to come up with a slightly better excuses than i'm an engineer dont hurt me (i've tried it and it doesnt work).
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I can't get past the fact that people are using the excuse "The bug was there, so I used it to get ahead. Nothing wrong with that!" It is wrong to take advantage of a situation you KNOW is abnormal.
Now these people cheated at a video game, they didn't commit a crime but this kind of excuse has been put forth as a defense for everything from theft to rape. It never works.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a fish a man and he will eat for a month!
Your friends forced Funcom to disable the NPC traders for several days.
They (your friends) ruined the gameplay for hundred of thousands of players.
If I where Funcom, I would perma-ban them. Heck, I would ban there neighbours ...
bah .. I would perma-ban everyone in the city they live in.
To WuM1nG:
NCsoft is a lot harsher. If you abuse a bug, no matter how small, you're parma banned. Perma-banned accounts are never reinstated, no matter the reason. Even if they banned by mistake, the account is gone (I don't heard of a case of them making a mistake however).
This is the only way to keep the player field level in a PvP game. Zero tolerance for cheaters and abusers. If you're unsure whether something is a bug, DON'T use or risk loosing the account permanently.
Ok, dont bann their accounts, just leave them in Tortage Hell as a level 1, never to leave the Island!
Exploiting is for nabz and you should know that, Funcom designed the game economy in a way and exploiters are trying to change that.
If there's a bug that doesn't mean you must exploit it, they did the right desicion,ban them all!
Cheating is cheating, though I'd have to say this early on it's probably not wise to go banning accounts. The game will have more exploitable mechanics. Makes much more sense to keep the exploiting types around to help discover more of them. Either that or I've been watching too much of "The Wire" lately.
Come join the feudal goodness