This is the new way of the MMO. . .solo to cap and then try to group and not have any idea what is going on. I have seen it tons of times you get a nice group together and when the tank pulls the two rogues run off and pull their own mobs causing the group to eat dirt and then blame the tank/healer for not doing their job.
I am not saying forced grouping is what needs to be done but I can tell you when you were forced to group the player base was a lot better at playing their roll.
QFT.
Ask yourself how many times in WoW did you find yourself grouping with a crap player that was max level but had not idea how to play his class?
Ask yourself how many times in EQ1 did you find yourself grouping with a crap player that was max level but had no idea how to play his class?
The reality is that I don't hate you but I do hate it when players assume an extremely narrow view of what people are about and what they want.
First off, I think it's great that you want to group. There are a lot of people who do. However, it is erroneous at best and and egregious at worst to suggest that that is the only way to be social in a game and that having solo content keeps people from grouping.
Truth: groupers will group. They will find others who group. Soloers will solo. Soloers will also enjoy social interactions with other people.
People are different. I'm sorry but it's true. And you really need to learn (as you go through life) that not everyone is going to see things the way you do. And they are not lesser for liking things that you might find abhorrent.
So, games like wow that have a lot of solo content can also be enjoyed on group lvls. Just because people want different things doesn't mean they are lesser than you. As far as soloing, It doesn't mean that players who solo want to be spoon fed but they usually don't want to spend houurs looking for groups, don't want to experience selfish players and once in a group will do so because it is a different and unique experience that they want to see to its conclusion.
I usually solo. I also group but usually with guildmates as experience has taught me that players who group aren't necessarily the cream of the crop when it comes to being "of quality".
I can't tell you the number of times that I"ve seen people drop out, not help, expect everything to revolve around them, talk incessantly, be generally annoying and I have to be in a group with them. And since, once "I" join a group I am determined to be in it to the end because I find it tacky, lower class and generally not acceptable to bow out. I once had to be grouped with some guy named "Iownz" (yes.. seriously) and god help me when I have to be subjected to some of the nonsense that scrolls across my chat window. God help me if I have to listen to it on voice chat.
I will say that some of the best and most memorable experiences have been in groups. It woudl be easy for someone to say "well, that's just what happens and just get yourself in better groups".
But I want to group when I want to group. If I don't want to be social then I don't want to be forced to be social. I do however enjoy the hustle and bustle of real players.
So, though I don't really hate you and support your playstyle, I applaud game makers who create grouping and solo content, who allow groupers to get to end game (bad term but there it is) by grouping and soloers to get to end game by soloing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
This is the new way of the MMO. . .solo to cap and then try to group and not have any idea what is going on. I have seen it tons of times you get a nice group together and when the tank pulls the two rogues run off and pull their own mobs causing the group to eat dirt and then blame the tank/healer for not doing their job.
I am not saying forced grouping is what needs to be done but I can tell you when you were forced to group the player base was a lot better at playing their roll.
QFT.
Ask yourself how many times in WoW did you find yourself grouping with a crap player that was max level but had not idea how to play his class?
Ask yourself how many times in EQ1 did you find yourself grouping with a crap player that was max level but had no idea how to play his class?
There's some truth to this I will admit. PUG's in WoW are one of it's worst features. However guilds brought about an alternative to PUG's and I find guild runs in WoW to be far more enjoyeable than PUG's in any game.
One of the problems in a game like WoW is that not only must you have EXACTLY 5 people but you must get a tank and you must get healer. Making the failure pointsfor creating a viable group much more likely to come into being.
You're assuming an awful lot. First off your statement that you must have EXACTLY 5 people and that you must get a tank and a healer assumes that all the members of your group must be level appropriate. I can't tell you how many times I have done instances with 4 or fewer members because 1 or more members we were on the high side of the level requirements rather than the low side. The same argument goes for tanks and healers. You don't have to have a healer or a tank if the group has 5 very strong DPS, you simply mow everything down in your path and bandage and eat after. Not every instance can be done this way, but the vast majority of them can be. Even if you want to go the standard route of tank/healer/DPS, there's lots of different ways to find tanks and healers. I've seen Rogues tank, I've seen Hunters Pets tank, I've seen Pally's tank, I've seen Warriors Tank, I've seen Druid's tank...I think you get the picture. And healing? Yes, there's a great lack of Paladins, Priests, Shaman and Druids in the game. LOL
No, the problem is not finding healers and tanks, the problem is finding members that are good enough to do an instance without needing a true dedicated healer or tank. Far too often an undergeared group goes into an instance thinking that the healer/tank is going to save their butt for them and are shocked when they can't. I've been in several instances when we didn't have a true healer/tank but we managed the instance just fine because we were not undergeared and we actually knew what they heck we were doing.
Sorry, Pappy, I respect your opinions a lot, but you will never convince me that WoW is group-friendly AT ALL.
In the above argument you counter gestalt's assumptions by adding your own, the biggest being that people are going to have the gear they need to make up for deficiencies in class diversity.
In reality, if you are trying to scrounge together a pick-up group, you are probably not the sort of player who has been able to score the best gear. When you are a veteran with a lot of friends, it's really hard to imagine what life must be like for newer or more casual players.
I have often argued myself that WoW is an extremely robust game, capable of being a lot of things to a lot of different types of players. However, group-friendliness is NOT one of those strengths. The difficulties and restrictions on grouping are just slightly too harsh to make it worth a player's time to look for one every time he logs in.
Yes, I said every time. There are games (CoH) where it is that easy. And yet, in those same games, you can solo to max level if you choose. But grouping is faster and more fun in a lot of ways, not just because of the XP bonus. In WoW, the opposite is true -- grouping is difficult, inefficient, and usually slower XP. The only reward for grouping is the loot ... if you're lucky enough to win a decent drop.
I actually voted I hate you. The reality is that I don't hate you but I do hate it when players assume an extremely narrow view of what people are about and what they want. First off, I think it's great that you want to group. There are a lot of people who do. However, it is erroneous at best and and egregious at worst to suggest that that is the only way to be social in a game and that having solo content keeps people from grouping. Truth: groupers will group. They will find others who group. Soloers will solo. Soloers will also enjoy social interactions with other people. People are different. I'm sorry but it's true. And you really need to learn (as you go through life) that not everyone is going to see things the way you do. So, games like wow that have a lot of solo content can also be enjoyed on group lvls. Just because people want different things doesn't mean they are lesser than you. As far as soloing, It doesn't mean that players who solo want to be spoon fed but they usually don't want to spend houurs looking for groups, don't want to experience selfish players and once in a group will do so because it is a different and unique experience that they want to see to its conclusion. I usually solo. I also group but usually with guildmates as experience has taught me that players who group aren't necessarily the cream of the crop when it comes to being "of quality". I can't tell you the number of times that I"ve seen people drop out, not help, expect everything to revolve around them, talk incessantly, be generally annoying and I have to be in a group with them. And since, once "I" join a group I am determined to be in it to the end because I find it tacky, lower class and generally not acceptable to bow out because I've had to be grouped with some guy named "Iownz" (yes.. seriously) and god help me when I have to be subjected to some of the nonsense that scrolls across my chat window. God help me if I have to listen to it on voice chat. I will say that some of the best and most memorable experiences have been in groups. It woudl be easy for someone to say "well, that's just what happens and just get yourself in better groups". But I want to group when I want to group. If I don't want to be social then I don't want to be forced to be social. I do however enjoy the hustle and bustle of real players. So, though I don't really hate you and support your playstyle, I applaud game makers who create grouping and solo content, who allow groupers to get to end game (bad term but there it is) by grouping and soloers to get to end game by soloing.
Good reply (not being sarcastic).
I don't want to write essays, so I'll make my reply as short as possible:
I am glad that people have different playstyles. I'm not trying to convince the whole population of WoW to embrace the grouping format and come group with me. In fact I would probably hate that.
People who are mainly solo'ers, can continue playing solo-accelerated games, such as WoW, GuildWars, AoC (not in later levels, but you get my point), etcetera.
As for the annoying people who drop out etc... I've encountered those kinds of people in WoW WAY, WAY more than any other MMORPG. I'm going to guess that this is because of the self-centered encouraged style of play the game gives you. "Get what YOU want, then get out!" is what WoW seems to be yelling to me a lot.
I know groupers will group, soloers will solo, and thieves will steal, but if an MMORPG is made with clearly the "groupers" in mind, wouldn't the groupers naturally play the game more than soloers would? Then you have a community full of friendly, helpful, groupers (not to say soloers aren't; just using some adjectives here). Why would a soloer play a game where grouping is the biggest advantage?
Stick with WoW if that's whatcha want!
As for grouping with shitty players, I sympathize with you for that. I am a very competetive player, being a part of the 8v8 scene in DAoC for years. Some players will annoy me because of sheer lack of skill, but I can always tell myself: It's just leveling, who cares?
One of the problems in a game like WoW is that not only must you have EXACTLY 5 people but you must get a tank and you must get healer. Making the failure pointsfor creating a viable group much more likely to come into being.
You're assuming an awful lot. First off your statement that you must have EXACTLY 5 people and that you must get a tank and a healer assumes that all the members of your group must be level appropriate. I can't tell you how many times I have done instances with 4 or fewer members because 1 or more members we were on the high side of the level requirements rather than the low side. The same argument goes for tanks and healers. You don't have to have a healer or a tank if the group has 5 very strong DPS, you simply mow everything down in your path and bandage and eat after. Not every instance can be done this way, but the vast majority of them can be. Even if you want to go the standard route of tank/healer/DPS, there's lots of different ways to find tanks and healers. I've seen Rogues tank, I've seen Hunters Pets tank, I've seen Pally's tank, I've seen Warriors Tank, I've seen Druid's tank...I think you get the picture. And healing? Yes, there's a great lack of Paladins, Priests, Shaman and Druids in the game. LOL
No, the problem is not finding healers and tanks, the problem is finding members that are good enough to do an instance without needing a true dedicated healer or tank. Far too often an undergeared group goes into an instance thinking that the healer/tank is going to save their butt for them and are shocked when they can't. I've been in several instances when we didn't have a true healer/tank but we managed the instance just fine because we were not undergeared and we actually knew what they heck we were doing.
I wasn't assuming anything except the standard balancing that Blizzard uses. I simply did not want to write two paragraphs explaining where there is leeway and where there is not.
I think your mis-understanding is that you have not played a game like CoX, where you do not need ANY kind of healer.
Most instances in WoW are simply not doable by 4 warriors. 4 scrappers in CoX will do quite fine.
You are merely arguing that there is a small amount of leeway in WoW. So what? Its still vastly less flexible than CoX that isn't even in question for those that have played both.
Oh wow you didn't need a TRUE healer, you just use a shaman or something. Whoa that is like revolutionary. Dude I was Feral druid who main healed every single instance in WoW before TBC was released. And often not really by choice. Fact is every single WoW instances basically requires a decent amount of healing going on.
In CoX I don't need ANY kind of healer or ANY kind of tank. At all. In fact some Defenders don't even get heals for power choices. In fact if you goto the Defender boards and call them healers they will throw you out on your ear.
Nor do I need 4 or 5 people. I can be in a group of any size. ANY size and be fine.
ANY size with ANY makeup versus must have 4-5 people and must have at least some kind of healer or semi-healer as one of those people. Its not even close sorry.
Posts like these are why everyone thinks that MMORPGs suck. Do you think that your way is the only way? Do you think that there aren't people grouping in WoW? Are you saying that WoW doesn't offer ANY advantage for grouping?
If I remember correctly, there was a guy that hit the level 70 in WoW in 114 hours and he grouped the entire time. At one point, his group had 40 people in it. I think that record has been beaten by now, I saw an article on how to get to lvl 60 in one week with a Nigh Elf Rogue recently, but the fact remains that you CAN grind in WoW and that you DO get a significant edge while grouping in WoW. What hell do you thing the LFG tool in WoW is for? Did you even use it? Were you aware that it existed?
If you like grinding in a group so much, there are truckloads of F2P Asian grinders out there for you play in. Games that are designed with philosophy that players will always be in parties of 20 or more. Everyone talks about how those games suck too. Why? because everyone plays MMORPGs differently. Some people group, some people solo, some people raid, some people PvP, some people collect titles / rewards / rare items, some people play the auction house like it's the stock market and some people just hang out. What gets emphasized in a game depends mostly on the community. With so many MMORPGs on the market right now, I'm sure theirs something out there that you'll dig.
Originally posted by Hexxeity In WoW, the opposite is true -- grouping is difficult, inefficient, and usually slower XP. The only reward for grouping is the loot ... if you're lucky enough to win a decent drop.
Exactly what my problem with newer MMOs is. I don't want soloing to be completely stupid and non-viable. I want soloing to be a part of a game. I just don't want it to be THE MOST EFFECTIVE LEVELING EVER in a game. In DAoC (please excuse me referencing this so much, I just loved the game) you could solo from 1-50 if you really wanted to. In fact, I did this once. Was it a lot slower? Yes. Was it as much fun? Hell no...
Posts like these are why everyone thinks that MMORPGs suck. Do you think that your way is the only way? Do you think that there aren't people grouping in WoW? Are you saying that WoW doesn't offer ANY advantage for grouping? If I remember correctly, there was a guy that hit the level 70 in WoW in 114 hours and he grouped the entire time. At one point, his group had 40 people in it. I think that record has been beaten by now, I saw an article on how to get to lvl 60 in one week with a Nigh Elf Rogue recently, but the fact remains that you CAN grind in WoW and that you DO get a significant edge while grouping in WoW. What hell do you thing the LFG tool in WoW is for? Did you even use it? Were you aware that it existed? If you like grinding in a group so much, there are truckloads of F2P Asian grinders out there for you play in. Games that are designed with philosophy that players will always be in parties of 20 or more. Everyone talks about how those games suck too. Why? because everyone plays MMORPGs differently. Some people group, some people solo, some people raid, some people PvP, some people collect titles / rewards / rare items, some people play the auction house like it's the stock market and some people just hang out. What gets emphasized in a game depends mostly on the community. With so many MMORPGs on the market right now, I'm sure theirs something out there that you'll dig.
Some people overreact and over-analyze, like you. BUT:
1. My way is not the only way. If it was, many MMOs wouldn't exist.
2. There are plenty of people grouping in WoW.
3. In any MMO there is at least SOME advantage to grouping, whether it be XP, loot, or just the social aspect of it.
4. What you just told me is something I've heard plenty of times. Guild powerlevels a character by zerging everything in site. Is this TRUE player grouping to you? Or just a way to beat the annoying grind WoW offers faster? Please tell me it's not what you think true grouping is.
I've never seen a group on WoW doing anything but instance running and the occasional quest. I've grouped up a few times for a quest every now and then because I had to. I got from 1-70 in WoW and almost a full set of epics almost entirely BY MYSELF.
Did what I accomplish add onto the WoW community any? No. Are there a LOT of people doing what I did? YES!
Do I like this? NO!
Do games have to be exactly how Eow wants them to be? NO!
Do I think my ideas are the best thing EVAR!? NO!
Also, I noticed you decided to compare one extreme with another extreme. You compared WoW, which is almost completely solo-able, to an F2P Asian zergfest MMO.
Think about the m i d d l e g r o u n d. The in-between.
This is the new way of the MMO. . .solo to cap and then try to group and not have any idea what is going on. I have seen it tons of times you get a nice group together and when the tank pulls the two rogues run off and pull their own mobs causing the group to eat dirt and then blame the tank/healer for not doing their job.
I am not saying forced grouping is what needs to be done but I can tell you when you were forced to group the player base was a lot better at playing their roll.
QFT.
Ask yourself how many times in WoW did you find yourself grouping with a crap player that was max level but had not idea how to play his class?
Ask yourself how many times in EQ1 did you find yourself grouping with a crap player that was max level but had no idea how to play his class?
There's some truth to this I will admit. PUG's in WoW are one of it's worst features. However guilds brought about an alternative to PUG's and I find guild runs in WoW to be far more enjoyeable than PUG's in any game.
Well guild groups are far different then PUGs. I agree, I enjoy guild groups over PUGs. I was speaking in general terms.
PUGs in EQ1 were a norm. It happen all the time.
PUGs in WoW are rare. Even rarer yet are good PUGs.
One of the problems in a game like WoW is that not only must you have EXACTLY 5 people but you must get a tank and you must get healer. Making the failure pointsfor creating a viable group much more likely to come into being.
You're assuming an awful lot. First off your statement that you must have EXACTLY 5 people and that you must get a tank and a healer assumes that all the members of your group must be level appropriate. I can't tell you how many times I have done instances with 4 or fewer members because 1 or more members we were on the high side of the level requirements rather than the low side. The same argument goes for tanks and healers. You don't have to have a healer or a tank if the group has 5 very strong DPS, you simply mow everything down in your path and bandage and eat after. Not every instance can be done this way, but the vast majority of them can be. Even if you want to go the standard route of tank/healer/DPS, there's lots of different ways to find tanks and healers. I've seen Rogues tank, I've seen Hunters Pets tank, I've seen Pally's tank, I've seen Warriors Tank, I've seen Druid's tank...I think you get the picture. And healing? Yes, there's a great lack of Paladins, Priests, Shaman and Druids in the game. LOL
No, the problem is not finding healers and tanks, the problem is finding members that are good enough to do an instance without needing a true dedicated healer or tank. Far too often an undergeared group goes into an instance thinking that the healer/tank is going to save their butt for them and are shocked when they can't. I've been in several instances when we didn't have a true healer/tank but we managed the instance just fine because we were not undergeared and we actually knew what they heck we were doing.
I wasn't assuming anything except the standard balancing that Blizzard uses. I simply did not want to write two paragraphs explaining where there is leeway and where there is not.
I think your mis-understanding is that you have not played a game like CoX, where you do not need ANY kind of healer.
Most instances in WoW are simply not doable by 4 warriors. 4 scrappers in CoX will do quite fine.
You are merely arguing that there is a small amount of leeway in WoW. So what? Its still vastly less flexible than CoX that isn't even in question for those that have played both.
Oh wow you didn't need a TRUE healer, you just use a shaman or something. Whoa that is like revolutionary. Dude I was Feral druid who main healed every single instance in WoW before TBC was released. And often not really by choice. Fact is every single WoW instances basically requires a decent amount of healing going on.
In CoX I don't need ANY kind of healer or ANY kind of tank. At all. In fact some Defenders don't even get heals for power choices. In fact if you goto the Defender boards and call them healers they will throw you out on your ear.
Nor do I need 4 or 5 people. I can be in a group of any size. ANY size and be fine.
ANY size with ANY makeup versus must have 4-5 people and must have at least some kind of healer or semi-healer as one of those people. Its not even close sorry.
You do not need a healer of any kind for some of the instances in WoW. I played a Warrior and my friend played a rogue, we could clear instances our level without a healer. sometimes we would grab a hunter to do CC for us but honestly a good player can do without a healer.. Mind you it was very very slow, it was not the best way to do it but it is possiable.
Posts like these are why everyone thinks that MMORPGs suck. Do you think that your way is the only way? Do you think that there aren't people grouping in WoW? Are you saying that WoW doesn't offer ANY advantage for grouping? If I remember correctly, there was a guy that hit the level 70 in WoW in 114 hours and he grouped the entire time. At one point, his group had 40 people in it. I think that record has been beaten by now, I saw an article on how to get to lvl 60 in one week with a Nigh Elf Rogue recently, but the fact remains that you CAN grind in WoW and that you DO get a significant edge while grouping in WoW. What hell do you thing the LFG tool in WoW is for? Did you even use it? Were you aware that it existed? If you like grinding in a group so much, there are truckloads of F2P Asian grinders out there for you play in. Games that are designed with philosophy that players will always be in parties of 20 or more. Everyone talks about how those games suck too. Why? because everyone plays MMORPGs differently. Some people group, some people solo, some people raid, some people PvP, some people collect titles / rewards / rare items, some people play the auction house like it's the stock market and some people just hang out. What gets emphasized in a game depends mostly on the community. With so many MMORPGs on the market right now, I'm sure theirs something out there that you'll dig.
Some people overreact and over-analyze, like you. BUT:
1. My way is not the only way. If it was, many MMOs wouldn't exist.
2. There are plenty of people grouping in WoW.
3. In any MMO there is at least SOME advantage to grouping, whether it be XP, loot, or just the social aspect of it.
4. What you just told me is something I've heard plenty of times. Guild powerlevels a character by zerging everything in site. Is this TRUE player grouping to you? Or just a way to beat the annoying grind WoW offers faster? Please tell me it's not what you think true grouping is.
When I compare the MMOs I had to group and grind in, to the MMOs where I could quest from level 1 to level X without ever saying a word to anyone, I prefer the group grinding.
That was you in the original post. Hello mouth, I'd like you meet foot...
I've never seen a group on WoW doing anything but instance running and the occasional quest. I've grouped up a few times for a quest every now and then because I had to. I got from 1-70 in WoW and almost a full set of epics almost entirely BY MYSELF.
Did what I accomplish add onto the WoW community any? No. Are there a LOT of people doing what I did? YES!
Do I like this? NO!
Do games have to be exactly how Eow wants them to be? NO!
Do I think my ideas are the best thing EVAR!? NO!
Also, I noticed you decided to compare one extreme with another extreme. You compared WoW, which is almost completely solo-able, to an F2P Asian zergfest MMO.
Think about the m i d d l e g r o u n d. The in-between.
Yes, I believe that there is a middle ground and that there are several games that have already reached it. CoX and DDO keep coming up and I think that Eve online also strikes a good balance despite the fact that it's a totally different kind of MMO.
I solo-ed in WoW because it was 10x more viable than grouping.
I grouped in DAoC because it was 10x more viable than soloing.
I loved DAoC because of it's system. I hated WoW because of it's system, which is what I'm arguing against in my main post.
A new, well-populated MMO where grouping is the MOST viable and fun thing to do would take the cake for me.
Does that clear things up? Grouping in WoW was not fun because it was not as viable. No, I'm not talking about tier raids. That's a WHOLE different gripe for me... the stupid "max player per raid so the newer player can't participate in jack unless they somehow make it into a guild that wants their specific class" theory WoW created. Sure, you have heroics, but obviously that isn't the best gear. Not even tier gear is the best if you want to PvP.
Want the best PvP gear? Go AFK in Org for about 6 months while playing 10 games a week at 1500 rating. Sound fun? You betcha! It puts a whole new immersive meaning behind PvP!
You could do sub 60 instances without a healer, any 70 instance or heroic if you dont have a healer your dead. Ive played wow for 2.5 years now have a fully epiced ssc lvl warrior and im calling bs on anyone that says they can do 70 instances without a healer.
I agree that is a problem with wow, go read the wow forums there are numerous threads talking about shortages of tanks and healers because you have to have them in the high lvl groups. Ofcourse you can do SM without them but 70 instances your screwed. I played Asheron's call for 5 years and grouping was fun because everyone was different and there was no set group that you had to have to be successful. I play Lotro now and it is not horrible with absolutely having to have a healer but it is still prefered.
I think new mmo's need to have group options that are not closed to certain classes, My warrior is fury in wow and even though i can out dps most chars at my gear lvl and always do i cant get in a 5 man instance pug because i dont have CC. So i either have to respec to tank or just go with a guild group.
I think your mis-understanding is that you have not played a game like CoX, where you do not need ANY kind of healer. I have played CoX and the reason you do not need a healer in CoX is because every class has some healing abilities. The same is true in WoW. If you run an instance without bandages, pots and food you are an idiot in my humble opinion. Most instances in WoW are simply not doable by 4 warriors. 4 scrappers in CoX will do quite fine. I beg to differ. 1 Prot warrior and 3 DPS warriors would do just fine. They would have problems in a few areas just because they have limited ways of dealing with certain types of mobs, but that was never your point. Just because 4 warriors would have a tough time, that does not mean you have to have a healer and a tank. There's a big difference between saying you have to have a tank and healer and that you can't have 4 of the same class. Can't say that I've EVER done an instance with 4 of the same class...even in CoX. You are merely arguing that there is a small amount of leeway in WoW. It's not small. There's plenty of leeway for those with enough ambition to find it. QQ for those who can't seem to do it. So what? Its still vastly less flexible than CoX that isn't even in question for those that have played both. I have played both. It's a little less flexible than CoX, but it has never been an issue for most people. LIke I have already said, there's lots of people who THINK that you must have a healer and a tank, I have found in practice that is far from the truth. If your group REQUIRES a healer and a tank it's because the rest of your group is lacking in one regard or another. Oh wow you didn't need a TRUE healer, you just use a shaman or something. Whoa that is like revolutionary. Dude I was Feral druid who main healed every single instance in WoW before TBC was released. And often not really by choice. Fact is every single WoW instances basically requires a decent amount of healing going on. But the healing can come in a LOT of different forms. There's several different classes with healing skills, there are bandages, pots and food to supplement the healers. Just because there are people in a PUG that thinks the healer ought to heal every bit of damage they take doesn't mean it's true. When you get outside of PUG's and get into guilds you realize right away that even the healers don't put up with that BS. I have a holy Paladin and in Kara I often tell the folks to bandage themselves because I don't have the mana to heal the whole raid and they better do it if they want to stay alive. I find most of them do it when forced to. In CoX I don't need ANY kind of healer or ANY kind of tank. At all. In fact some Defenders don't even get heals for power choices. In fact if you goto the Defender boards and call them healers they will throw you out on your ear. Nor do I need 4 or 5 people. I can be in a group of any size. ANY size and be fine. That's because CoX tailors it's instances to the size of the group. Only in instances is this true in WoW. For normal questing you can solo your way and there's plenty of quests outside of instances to get to 70 solo. ANY size with ANY makeup versus must have 4-5 people and must have at least some kind of healer or semi-healer as one of those people. Its not even close sorry. It's nieve to think that just because YOUR group needed a healer, that all groups do. I have been to many many instances without a healer or a tank and we've gotten through it. In fact it's quite fun to try sometimes without one. Sure you've got to expect a few wipes, but a healer/tank doesn't guarantee you won't wipe. In fact I have seen some instances with no healer and plenty of CC that did exceptionally well. CC everything you can, take down the dangerest mobs first and then clean up the rest. Eat/Drink/Bandage rinse and repeat. If you get aggro and you're a squishy, use your skills that drop aggro. Most of the time people die it's because they can't drop aggro for one reason or another. Actually the worst part of doing an instance without a healer is that it usually means you aint getting a res either. Gonna have to hoof it back.
You could do sub 60 instances without a healer, any 70 instance or heroic if you dont have a healer your dead. Ive played wow for 2.5 years now have a fully epiced ssc lvl warrior and im calling bs on anyone that says they can do 70 instances without a healer.
You're correct, at least until they raise the cap to 80. But that still leaves about 20 instances you can 5 man without a healer, not to mention all the content outside of instances. I can't say that I've tried them all without a healer, but I've done enough to suggest it can be done.
Was originally going to post this on VN, but I figured it was a little too... ranty to be accepted.
From my experience in MMOs I feel as if they ruin the community on a whole.
When I compare the MMOs I had to group and grind in, to the MMOs where I could quest from level 1 to level X without ever saying a word to anyone, I prefer the group grinding. In MMOs where you can't solo reliably enough to level all by yourself, you are forced to find groups, but even though you are FORCED to, you eventually end up making friends along the way, or possibly even joining a guild, etc.
Why do MMOs today babyfeed people? I made it a goal of mine to get level 70 in WoW (using this as an example because it's apparantly a popular game right now), just so I could experience the game enough to give a real opinion on it. I was able to get from 1-65 without talking to more than a couple of people. At around 65 I joined a group for... A QUEST! How surprising! Then from 65-70 I did not have a need to talk to anyone. The game played itself for me. I accepted a quest, I did it. So do 90% of other players (this is a personal guestimate, by the way, just from what I've seen). How the hell does this build community? Even PvP in the current generation of MMOs is non-community based (well, mostly not). Oh and by the way, I hate WoW and think it should burn in hell, coming from a veteran MMO player. Imo it has definitely hurt the market in more ways than it has helped.
Why are MMOs all about ME ME ME ME now? They are all too easy in my opinion. I feel like a 5 year old when I play current MMOs. I want to make a character, walk out of the starting area, and get my ass handed to me by a mob I can't solo. I then want to open the group finding window (whatever you call it in whatever game), find a group leader and ask him if I can join, and work as a team to level up and maybe even become friends/guildies.
I want a new MMO to be about WE WE WE, my realm/faction/side/whatever! I feel like I could seriously "beat" WoW. It feels like such a single player game sometimes. Why, with the millions of dollars they had to develop the game, did they eventually decide (after TBC came out), "Hey, let's make PvP a mindless grind! It means nothing! Hehe!"
Maybe I'm just bitter. Maybe it's just late and most of this sounds stupid to anyone except for me. Maybe I'm just jealous that other people are having so much fun with carebear MMOs while I can't help but think of the old days, but I can't go back to the old days because the old niche MMOs are currently suffering from underpopulation, which basically turns it into ME ME ME again (plus I don't know anyone anymore.)
I can almost see a new game at Wal-Mart. "My First MMO," for children ages 4-6. Be careful letting your child play with the box, because the plastic is harmful if swallowed.
Oh and another thing. I hate instanced PvP. I HATE INSTANCED PVP. It serves no purpose but to kill the community even further, and give everyone "instant action!" If you want instant action go play Unreal Tournament 3! It's a kickass game! I play it!
Open world PvP, or RvR if you're talking about Mythic, is one of the best things ever for a community. It lets you get to know your friends, your enemies, and it lets people build reputations.
One more thing! I HATE PVP REWARDS. You may ask, "Well, what do you want out of PvP then, smartass?" I want respect, reputation, and the knowledge that I worked together with my teammates to overcome a common cause: realm pride, side pride, faction pride, you name it. I don't need stupid armor, or weapons, or numbers on a webpage. I don't need gold or experience either. I DEFINITELY don't need it to be a grind. I want to go out with my friends, my group, my guild, my alliance, or maybe just a zerg of my faction/realm, and attempt annihilate/control the opposing side. Oh, and did I mention, this ISN'T INSTANCED. What we do ENTIRELY EFFECTS the server. People on the other side will be constantly talking about it in chat groups, guild chat, general chat, you name it. They will eventually field enough people to go head on with us, and have a huge epic fight. Who knows, maybe we'll lose and they will regain control over their side. Anything can happen. There is no limit to epicness.
I hate using WoW references, I really do; it makes me feel cliche as hell, but WoW opened up a new hatred inside of me for MMOs similar to it, so I can't help it. In instanced PvP you are completely and totally limited. Also did I mention, it's POINTLESS? Let's play some Warsong Gulch. Oh no! Alliance has the flag and they are 2/3, we're about to lose... wait... why am I saying this? HAHAHA it doesn't f***ing matter! I get honor either way! Not like losing this match actually means anything! I then proceed to run out in a kamikaze attempt to maybe kill 1 more Alli before the match ends. Yay. Okay let's queue up for another one so I can hit my goal of 15k honor today. I am seriously ashamed I did this for about 2 weeks before I WOKE UP!
DAoC had an awesomely good setup for this. I won't go into detail because I'm sure everyone here has heard a DAoC veteran praise the game way too many times, but I will say this: Before ToA and NF, not only did DAoC have a VERY strong community, they designed RvR almost flawlessly. These both complimented each other, providing a kick-ass game for 2-3 years (the game is nothing like that anymore). I am embarrassed when I know that I wasted so much time playing a meaningless game like WoW. Yes I had friends on WoW, and yes I had a good guild. Yes I've won plenty of arena matches. I think because of these things I still have a right to my opinion: WoW is horrible unless you're 12 and it's your first MMORPG. I can't even call WoW an MMORPG actually. From now on I'm going to call it a SCMMOG (Self-Centered Massively Multiplayer Online Game).
I can't stand to play a game that has instanced PvP. If I want be so self centered I can just play some random RPG like the Witcher or something of equal status. When I decide to play an MMO I want PLAYER-HUMAN INTERACTION to actually be encouraged! I was able to go from 1-20 in Age of Conan, 90% of the time during the NIGHT! (for those of you who don't know, "night" is single-player mode). I know what you people will say: "Well obviously you didn't try interacting with anyone." Like I said, I have no encouragement to. Obviously questing at night is the faster route, so pretty much everyone else does it too. Yes, I did a few daytime quests, by the way, and I grouped up a couple of times. It just didn't feel natural at all in that game.
In older games, for MOST people, if you did not group and try to work together, guess what? YOU'RE SCREWED!
I'm going to stop ranting before I lose sleep over this [face_silly]. I hope nobody responds to this and it gets deleted by a mod or something. This is basically my nostalgia, exploding all across your screen in written format. How does that make you feel?
Death to the WoW-Era! I'm currently waiting for the next generation of MMORPGS once WoW is dead and buried. I'm young, I can wait a long time. I just hope the next Era actually... you know... arrives.
And if anyone was wondering, I think niche games are good for the MMORPG market, and also good for the MMORPG player. I'm very against mainstream works. Yes I understand WoW was "technically" designed very well and was polished EXTREMELY well: doesn't change how it plays. Doesn't change it's atmosphere, it's general attitude, or it's community. Or how crappy it is (flames incoming).
I'm going to regret posting this in the morning. People who are awake and buzzing are going to eat me alive trying to prove how wrong my statements are (probably my statements about questing). So in an attempt to alleviate this: if your idea of fun is doing meaningless PvP, getting leveled and geared without talking to anyone, and playing arena games 24/7 inside the same little ring in hopes of watching your points go up on the ladder, while not accomplishing anything constructive or proactive, you can try all you want to convince me how well that system works, or prove to me that my favored system is wrong, but it won't change anything!
Kill me and rip apart my VN name!
Agreed.
We both think alike.
I am Drunk atm and have a strong urge to rant.....
I was going to try FF XI where grouping was necessary but I think I will give it a pass. So at the moment I am playing DDO.
DDO combat is great and grouping is a lot of fun mainly because of the inbuilt chat system. The only thing missing is meaningful PVP.
Because grouping is very much encouraged in DDO the comunity is absolutely fabulous. Just to give an instance- On my first day of playing DDO I did some solo quests in the beginning and loved the combat(People say you dont need skill to play MMO's those idiots should try DDO). After some time I was just looking for a group and did not know about the LFG function, I just asked in general chat and people from everywhere replied and offered help. I got into a guild and had a blast, we went to the waterworks and it was amazing fun the best I have had in a long time, we joked, we chatted became friends and had fun killing the trolls. In no time I was level 3 without even noticing it. This is how I spent my first day in DDO.
Now to give another instance......I played WoW for around 1 year.....My first day in WoW was doing absolutely mindless quests and trying to chat with people and get to know the community.....Everyone ignored me because they themselves were busy doing mindless quests.....The only time I grouped in WoW was for loot and that was with my school friends.....
Now let other people judge what is better Encouraged grouping or SOLOING LIKE MINDLESS DRONES LOOKING AT THE COOL ENVIRONMENT AND RPing.....WHY DONT THESE SO CALLED CASUAL GAMERS PLAY OBLIVION WITH SKYPE ON.....OR NEVERWINTER NIGHTS. I have nothing against casual gamers I myself am a working individual and have a life outside MMO"s but I play MMO's for having fun.....meeting new people, making friends......Why should I waste my 2 hours doing mindless solo quests and trying to reach the highest level as soon as posible and then PVPing for the sake of it. Give me a break I'd rather watch Telly Tubbies.
People say they want to immerse themselvesin the game by doing solo quests like which hen lay the egg first and looking at the beautiful scenery while doing it. OH REALLY WHAT AMAZING FUN.....I'd rather go to some nice picnic spot and read some novel waaaaaaaaaaay better than staring at the computer screen seeing the OH SO BEAUTIFUL GRAPHICS and carrying pie from one person to another.
My first MMO was Ragnarok.....yes it was an asian grindfest.....yes the graphics were crappy.....but grouping was absolutely necessary after lvl 40. I dont know what RVR is but Ragnarok had a thing called WOE. It is like a siege where you try to deffend or capture a castle.This game required macroing this game requiered skills it was not only point and click you had to go through various armour and skills and you had to do it fast. WOE lasted for 2 hours and it was 2 times a week. If you could capture a castle and defend it for 2 hours it was worth it, It was a pride to have a castle with your banner on it, it was beneficial too as we got free items from the treasure chest in the castle. This is what an MMO is all about.
It is not the industry which has brought MMO's to a state which it is atm. Babies and the so called casual players have done it by crying for solo gameplay. Yes I agree sometimes you need some solo time but asking for solo play till end game is complete BS and utterly rotten.
What I think needs to happen is for a company to be brave and make a game for the minority which likes group play compared to soloing and also likes meaningful PVP. I am myself doing a degree in BDI at the moment and intend to become a game designer and hopefully make a game for gamers like us because from what I see it is not going to happen till someone takes the initiative. Someone needs to take the initiative and try to a MMORPG and not an ORPG. I for the life of me cant seem to comprehend the diffenrence between a single player RPG with multiplayer facilities and MMO's of today.
I know most of you people are already bearing your fangs to rip this post but say what you want I really dont care. I am entitled to my opinion and I have given it.
P.S: I live in Asia so my grammar might be incorrect in some places.
I have nothing against casual gamers I myself am a working individual and have a life outside MMO"s but I play MMO's for having fun.....meeting new people, making friends......Why should I waste my 2 hours doing mindless solo quests....
Perhaps others feel differently? Perhaps they like to play solo. Why should they be forced to group up? There's nothing wrong with wanting to group up and I understand your frustration if you had a hard time finding people to group with in WoW, however who is to be blamed? Should you blame it on Blizzard who clearly has given it's players the ability to group up or should it be placed on the individuals who made a CHOICE not to group up? I think it's clear that Blizzard is giving everyone the right to play as they wish which is the best possible decision in my opinion.
Now let other people judge what is better Encouraged grouping or SOLOING LIKE MINDLESS DRONES LOOKING AT THE COOL ENVIRONMENT AND RPing.....WHY DONT THESE SO CALLED CASUAL GAMERS PLAY OBLIVION WITH SKYPE ON.....OR NEVERWINTER NIGHTS. I have nothing against casual gamers I myself am a working individual and have a life outside MMO"s but I play MMO's for having fun.....meeting new people, making friends......Why should I waste my 2 hours doing mindless solo quests and trying to reach the highest level as soon as posible and then PVPing for the sake of it. Give me a break I'd rather watch Telly Tubbies.
lol, you do realize that you are almost a fascist.
But your opinion is obviously valid and it's how you play. I can't however be dismissive of alternate playstyles that encourage the choice of the individual over your "encouraged grouping".
The problem is that you don't quite understand the idea of soloing or you wouldn't be equating it with playinb oblivion or neverwinter nights with skype on. They are not the same as one game allows for social interaction and the other is a solo game.
That's why you don't get it. If I was arrogant I would probably say that it was you who were the drone, relying upon your group in order to be able to get anything out of it to define your role for you and incable of experiencing social interaction unless you have a neat little group to lubricate conversation.
See, that would be wrong and arrogant on my part to actually assert that that is what you experience.
As far as to what the soloer actually "is", the soloer is the Kwai Chang Caine of the mmo world. They go into town, purchase from hawkers selling their wares and then go out in order to meet their destiny, sometimes helping passersby, sometimes uniting with other warriors to take down a great threat, other times descending into the depths in order to face their own fears while promoting their own brand of justice (or evil). Only to emerge (if they are lucky) stronger, more confident and able to travel to the next town that needs his/her help (or to inflict his/her vengeance on the next unsuspecting town... etc)
or.... I can group and hear some guys dumb jokes, how so and so is really high and if they wander off to forgive them as they might not realize, and to put up with others who want to hot chat and make farting sounds.
or... to of course get into a great group with people who are dedicated to the task at hand for a unique and fulfulling experience, perhaps to see them again... or not...
It can be anything.
but "mindless drones" seems based upon your own preconceived notions of what really is going on.
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Pappy, the one big thing you are ignoring in your arguments is that the perceptions of players are a lot more important than the reality.
I'm sure everything you say is true about running 4-man instances with no healers. I can totally see that working. But the fact of the matter is, the vast majority of players would not be able to pull that off, especially not in a PUG.
So the reality is, for all practical purposes, in WoW, you pretty much have to have a healer and a tank and 3 other people for PUGs.
You also have to have people close to the same level if you want decent XP.
You also have to have similar quest backgrounds if you want to everyone to get credit for the current quests if a quest chain is involved (and it usually is).
You also have to get lucky in a random roll if you hope to take advantage of the main reason for grouping (the loot).
Making things work with a bunch of strangers can be hard enough, but please face facts ... grouping in WoW can be a challenge for people who know each other, insurmountable for people who don't.
You're assuming an awful lot. First off your statement that you must have EXACTLY 5 people and that you must get a tank and a healer assumes that all the members of your group must be level appropriate. I can't tell you how many times I have done instances with 4 or fewer members because 1 or more members we were on the high side of the level requirements rather than the low side. The same argument goes for tanks and healers. You don't have to have a healer or a tank if the group has 5 very strong DPS, you simply mow everything down in your path and bandage and eat after. Not every instance can be done this way, but the vast majority of them can be. Even if you want to go the standard route of tank/healer/DPS, there's lots of different ways to find tanks and healers. I've seen Rogues tank, I've seen Hunters Pets tank, I've seen Pally's tank, I've seen Warriors Tank, I've seen Druid's tank...I think you get the picture. And healing? Yes, there's a great lack of Paladins, Priests, Shaman and Druids in the game. LOL No, the problem is not finding healers and tanks, the problem is finding members that are good enough to do an instance without needing a true dedicated healer or tank. Far too often an undergeared group goes into an instance thinking that the healer/tank is going to save their butt for them and are shocked when they can't. I've been in several instances when we didn't have a true healer/tank but we managed the instance just fine because we were not undergeared and we actually knew what they heck we were doing.
Sorry, Pappy, I respect your opinions a lot, but you will never convince me that WoW is group-friendly AT ALL.
In the above argument you counter gestalt's assumptions by adding your own, the biggest being that people are going to have the gear they need to make up for deficiencies in class diversity.
In reality, if you are trying to scrounge together a pick-up group, you are probably not the sort of player who has been able to score the best gear. When you are a veteran with a lot of friends, it's really hard to imagine what life must be like for newer or more casual players.
I have often argued myself that WoW is an extremely robust game, capable of being a lot of things to a lot of different types of players. However, group-friendliness is NOT one of those strengths. The difficulties and restrictions on grouping are just slightly too harsh to make it worth a player's time to look for one every time he logs in.
Yes, I said every time. There are games (CoH) where it is that easy. And yet, in those same games, you can solo to max level if you choose. But grouping is faster and more fun in a lot of ways, not just because of the XP bonus. In WoW, the opposite is true -- grouping is difficult, inefficient, and usually slower XP. The only reward for grouping is the loot ... if you're lucky enough to win a decent drop.
Sorry, I somehow missed your post my first time thru, (got sidetracked with Gestalt).
You are forgetting one major difference between WoW and CoX. In CoX, none of the instances are any different difficulty wise. Every instance is based off the number of members in your group and their relative levels when you enter them. It matters little whether you run an instance in the very first zone you enter or one that you go into later on because the mobs you will find there will match your groups size and level. I have not played CoX to a high level so perhaps it changes a bit as you go, but initially this is true.
WoW is different. The difficulty of the instance itself is preset and it's up to the group entering the dungeon to determine if they can handle the instance or not. You will only require a healer and a tank if the rest of the members of the group are in the proverbial "in over their heads" group. You're absolutely correct that most PUG's won't be able to do the instance without them, but it's because the people you find in PUG's generally have no clue how to play their class WITHOUT a tank and a healer. However, I have with my guildmates many many times gone into an instance without them knowing full well that we would each be responsible for ourselves. Use your drop aggro skills to drop aggro and bandage. CC whenever possible. Use a pot from time to time. Eat between fights while the mana users are drinking. This is all very possible and very doable, it's just that the average PUG doesn't have a clue how to do it. That doesn't mean it can't be done, simply that it's not the "easy" way to do it.
It's all how you approach it. Some people start out saying "I want to run Blackfathom Deeps" for instance. So they then go about looking for a group. Nevermind that they are level 21 and barely able to run Deadmines let alone BFD, they just assume that since they have the quests that they should be able to go and run BFD. And they would if they were able to find a group of 4 others who were more like level 25 or so and one of them happened to be a healer and another a tank who can protect this weak link since he is going to contribute very little to the group as a whole.
But if instead this person were to say, "Well I'd like to run BFD, but my gear and level are really better suited toward deadmines" and they set out to find a group for deadmines, they won't have to be so picky about which group they get. You could find a hunter, rogue, couple of mages and a warrior and run thru deadmines just fine. You wouldn't need a healer at all because they would be able to take down practically anything they came across fairly easily provided they each understood their roles.
I'm sure everything you say is true about running 4-man instances with no healers. I can totally see that working. But the fact of the matter is, the vast majority of players would not be able to pull that off, especially not in a PUG. So the reality is, for all practical purposes, in WoW, you pretty much have to have a healer and a tank and 3 other people for PUGs. You also have to have people close to the same level if you want decent XP. You also have to have similar quest backgrounds if you want to everyone to get credit for the current quests if a quest chain is involved (and it usually is). You also have to get lucky in a random roll if you hope to take advantage of the main reason for grouping (the loot). Making things work with a bunch of strangers can be hard enough, but please face facts ... grouping in WoW can be a challenge for people who know each other, insurmountable for people who don't.
In PUG's, yes, but who said anything about PUG's? I'm not under the impression that you HAVE to run instances with PUG's. I almost NEVER do that because it's very frustrating because at least 1/2 the group has no clue what they are doing and the other half that do end up having to save their skin by healing them and pulling aggro off them (the role of the healers and the tank).
If you get in a guild and play with some folks who know what they are doing, it totally blows the theory out of the water. It's not hard to find a decent guild, all you have to do is look for players that seem to know what they are doing and find out what guild they are in and ask to join. Now if you have no clue what you are doing, then yes that does make it a bit tough since you don't know what to look for. But I'm sorry, ignorance is no excuse. Play a little bit solo and do without a healer or tank, rely only on yourself. Is it impossible? No, it simply requires that you do things like learn how to mitigate damage, learn how to stun or trap or somehow disable the mob long enough for you to bandage. Keep a supply of pots with you and drink them in those few occasions where nothing else will work.
The facts are that there are a lot of people that NEED to be in a group with a healer/tank because they simply aren't good enough to do without them. But even those people can be taught to play without relying on a healer/tank. And of course you don't ALWAYS have to go without one or the other or both, but it's nice to not HAVE to rely on them.
And yes I understand that as you get close to the cap, things change a bit and you do pretty much have to have a healer and a tank, but 80% of the way to cap can be done without them and then once you reach cap, it's actually quite easy to find healers and tanks for the most part because they ARE in demand then.
I thought I would add my two cents, or maybe reiterate what has already been established >.>
Someone suggested earlier in the topic that groupers will group and soloers will solo. I prefer incentives to group, but I also want efficiency. I think most players will be guided toward efficiency, not preference of play. Even if I like grouping, if it offers me virtually nothing, I am not going to do it.
I also saw someone indicate that you can effectively group in WoW, dropping a number like 114 hours of play time from 1-70. The group also reached around 40 people or so. I never heard of this, but I do remember the first guy who reached 70 when the new expansion hit. Took him 28 hours if I recall. He did not do it by running dungeons or anything. He had a raid and they helped him powerlevel. From what I understand, if that one player trying to level hits a mob and lets the low leveled raid kill it, he will get a good deal of the xp. It will also be much faster. This is probably the same way the other guy did it. Obviously, this is an impractical means of levelling for the vast majority of players because few have such guild connections/guilds willing to do it.
By ordinary means, I seriously doubt WoW offers much of an advantage to average groups (5 mans or lower) trying to level, if any at all.
Comments
Ask yourself how many times in WoW did you find yourself grouping with a crap player that was max level but had not idea how to play his class?
Ask yourself how many times in EQ1 did you find yourself grouping with a crap player that was max level but had no idea how to play his class?
Sooner or Later
Looking for a game where grouping is best, not looking for a grindfest. . .
no difference between any mmo. all mmo is a grind, only diff between western mmo is they disguise it as a quest
I actually voted I hate you.
The reality is that I don't hate you but I do hate it when players assume an extremely narrow view of what people are about and what they want.
First off, I think it's great that you want to group. There are a lot of people who do. However, it is erroneous at best and and egregious at worst to suggest that that is the only way to be social in a game and that having solo content keeps people from grouping.
Truth: groupers will group. They will find others who group. Soloers will solo. Soloers will also enjoy social interactions with other people.
People are different. I'm sorry but it's true. And you really need to learn (as you go through life) that not everyone is going to see things the way you do. And they are not lesser for liking things that you might find abhorrent.
So, games like wow that have a lot of solo content can also be enjoyed on group lvls. Just because people want different things doesn't mean they are lesser than you. As far as soloing, It doesn't mean that players who solo want to be spoon fed but they usually don't want to spend houurs looking for groups, don't want to experience selfish players and once in a group will do so because it is a different and unique experience that they want to see to its conclusion.
I usually solo. I also group but usually with guildmates as experience has taught me that players who group aren't necessarily the cream of the crop when it comes to being "of quality".
I can't tell you the number of times that I"ve seen people drop out, not help, expect everything to revolve around them, talk incessantly, be generally annoying and I have to be in a group with them. And since, once "I" join a group I am determined to be in it to the end because I find it tacky, lower class and generally not acceptable to bow out. I once had to be grouped with some guy named "Iownz" (yes.. seriously) and god help me when I have to be subjected to some of the nonsense that scrolls across my chat window. God help me if I have to listen to it on voice chat.
I will say that some of the best and most memorable experiences have been in groups. It woudl be easy for someone to say "well, that's just what happens and just get yourself in better groups".
But I want to group when I want to group. If I don't want to be social then I don't want to be forced to be social. I do however enjoy the hustle and bustle of real players.
So, though I don't really hate you and support your playstyle, I applaud game makers who create grouping and solo content, who allow groupers to get to end game (bad term but there it is) by grouping and soloers to get to end game by soloing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Ask yourself how many times in WoW did you find yourself grouping with a crap player that was max level but had not idea how to play his class?
Ask yourself how many times in EQ1 did you find yourself grouping with a crap player that was max level but had no idea how to play his class?
There's some truth to this I will admit. PUG's in WoW are one of it's worst features. However guilds brought about an alternative to PUG's and I find guild runs in WoW to be far more enjoyeable than PUG's in any game.
No, the problem is not finding healers and tanks, the problem is finding members that are good enough to do an instance without needing a true dedicated healer or tank. Far too often an undergeared group goes into an instance thinking that the healer/tank is going to save their butt for them and are shocked when they can't. I've been in several instances when we didn't have a true healer/tank but we managed the instance just fine because we were not undergeared and we actually knew what they heck we were doing.
Sorry, Pappy, I respect your opinions a lot, but you will never convince me that WoW is group-friendly AT ALL.In the above argument you counter gestalt's assumptions by adding your own, the biggest being that people are going to have the gear they need to make up for deficiencies in class diversity.
In reality, if you are trying to scrounge together a pick-up group, you are probably not the sort of player who has been able to score the best gear. When you are a veteran with a lot of friends, it's really hard to imagine what life must be like for newer or more casual players.
I have often argued myself that WoW is an extremely robust game, capable of being a lot of things to a lot of different types of players. However, group-friendliness is NOT one of those strengths. The difficulties and restrictions on grouping are just slightly too harsh to make it worth a player's time to look for one every time he logs in.
Yes, I said every time. There are games (CoH) where it is that easy. And yet, in those same games, you can solo to max level if you choose. But grouping is faster and more fun in a lot of ways, not just because of the XP bonus. In WoW, the opposite is true -- grouping is difficult, inefficient, and usually slower XP. The only reward for grouping is the loot ... if you're lucky enough to win a decent drop.
Good reply (not being sarcastic).
I don't want to write essays, so I'll make my reply as short as possible:
I am glad that people have different playstyles. I'm not trying to convince the whole population of WoW to embrace the grouping format and come group with me. In fact I would probably hate that.
People who are mainly solo'ers, can continue playing solo-accelerated games, such as WoW, GuildWars, AoC (not in later levels, but you get my point), etcetera.
As for the annoying people who drop out etc... I've encountered those kinds of people in WoW WAY, WAY more than any other MMORPG. I'm going to guess that this is because of the self-centered encouraged style of play the game gives you. "Get what YOU want, then get out!" is what WoW seems to be yelling to me a lot.
I know groupers will group, soloers will solo, and thieves will steal, but if an MMORPG is made with clearly the "groupers" in mind, wouldn't the groupers naturally play the game more than soloers would? Then you have a community full of friendly, helpful, groupers (not to say soloers aren't; just using some adjectives here). Why would a soloer play a game where grouping is the biggest advantage?
Stick with WoW if that's whatcha want!
As for grouping with shitty players, I sympathize with you for that. I am a very competetive player, being a part of the 8v8 scene in DAoC for years. Some players will annoy me because of sheer lack of skill, but I can always tell myself: It's just leveling, who cares?
You should try DDo someday. That game hates soloers almost as much as I do.
REALITY CHECK
No, the problem is not finding healers and tanks, the problem is finding members that are good enough to do an instance without needing a true dedicated healer or tank. Far too often an undergeared group goes into an instance thinking that the healer/tank is going to save their butt for them and are shocked when they can't. I've been in several instances when we didn't have a true healer/tank but we managed the instance just fine because we were not undergeared and we actually knew what they heck we were doing.
I wasn't assuming anything except the standard balancing that Blizzard uses. I simply did not want to write two paragraphs explaining where there is leeway and where there is not.I think your mis-understanding is that you have not played a game like CoX, where you do not need ANY kind of healer.
Most instances in WoW are simply not doable by 4 warriors. 4 scrappers in CoX will do quite fine.
You are merely arguing that there is a small amount of leeway in WoW. So what? Its still vastly less flexible than CoX that isn't even in question for those that have played both.
Oh wow you didn't need a TRUE healer, you just use a shaman or something. Whoa that is like revolutionary. Dude I was Feral druid who main healed every single instance in WoW before TBC was released. And often not really by choice. Fact is every single WoW instances basically requires a decent amount of healing going on.
In CoX I don't need ANY kind of healer or ANY kind of tank. At all. In fact some Defenders don't even get heals for power choices. In fact if you goto the Defender boards and call them healers they will throw you out on your ear.
Nor do I need 4 or 5 people. I can be in a group of any size. ANY size and be fine.
ANY size with ANY makeup versus must have 4-5 people and must have at least some kind of healer or semi-healer as one of those people. Its not even close sorry.
Posts like these are why everyone thinks that MMORPGs suck. Do you think that your way is the only way? Do you think that there aren't people grouping in WoW? Are you saying that WoW doesn't offer ANY advantage for grouping?
If I remember correctly, there was a guy that hit the level 70 in WoW in 114 hours and he grouped the entire time. At one point, his group had 40 people in it. I think that record has been beaten by now, I saw an article on how to get to lvl 60 in one week with a Nigh Elf Rogue recently, but the fact remains that you CAN grind in WoW and that you DO get a significant edge while grouping in WoW. What hell do you thing the LFG tool in WoW is for? Did you even use it? Were you aware that it existed?
If you like grinding in a group so much, there are truckloads of F2P Asian grinders out there for you play in. Games that are designed with philosophy that players will always be in parties of 20 or more. Everyone talks about how those games suck too. Why? because everyone plays MMORPGs differently. Some people group, some people solo, some people raid, some people PvP, some people collect titles / rewards / rare items, some people play the auction house like it's the stock market and some people just hang out. What gets emphasized in a game depends mostly on the community. With so many MMORPGs on the market right now, I'm sure theirs something out there that you'll dig.
Exactly what my problem with newer MMOs is. I don't want soloing to be completely stupid and non-viable. I want soloing to be a part of a game. I just don't want it to be THE MOST EFFECTIVE LEVELING EVER in a game. In DAoC (please excuse me referencing this so much, I just loved the game) you could solo from 1-50 if you really wanted to. In fact, I did this once. Was it a lot slower? Yes. Was it as much fun? Hell no...
Some people overreact and over-analyze, like you. BUT:
1. My way is not the only way. If it was, many MMOs wouldn't exist.
2. There are plenty of people grouping in WoW.
3. In any MMO there is at least SOME advantage to grouping, whether it be XP, loot, or just the social aspect of it.
4. What you just told me is something I've heard plenty of times. Guild powerlevels a character by zerging everything in site. Is this TRUE player grouping to you? Or just a way to beat the annoying grind WoW offers faster? Please tell me it's not what you think true grouping is.
I've never seen a group on WoW doing anything but instance running and the occasional quest. I've grouped up a few times for a quest every now and then because I had to. I got from 1-70 in WoW and almost a full set of epics almost entirely BY MYSELF.
Did what I accomplish add onto the WoW community any? No. Are there a LOT of people doing what I did? YES!
Do I like this? NO!
Do games have to be exactly how Eow wants them to be? NO!
Do I think my ideas are the best thing EVAR!? NO!
Also, I noticed you decided to compare one extreme with another extreme. You compared WoW, which is almost completely solo-able, to an F2P Asian zergfest MMO.
Think about the m i d d l e g r o u n d. The in-between.
Ask yourself how many times in WoW did you find yourself grouping with a crap player that was max level but had not idea how to play his class?
Ask yourself how many times in EQ1 did you find yourself grouping with a crap player that was max level but had no idea how to play his class?
Well guild groups are far different then PUGs. I agree, I enjoy guild groups over PUGs. I was speaking in general terms.There's some truth to this I will admit. PUG's in WoW are one of it's worst features. However guilds brought about an alternative to PUG's and I find guild runs in WoW to be far more enjoyeable than PUG's in any game.
PUGs in EQ1 were a norm. It happen all the time.
PUGs in WoW are rare. Even rarer yet are good PUGs.
PUG = Pick Up Groups
Sooner or Later
No, the problem is not finding healers and tanks, the problem is finding members that are good enough to do an instance without needing a true dedicated healer or tank. Far too often an undergeared group goes into an instance thinking that the healer/tank is going to save their butt for them and are shocked when they can't. I've been in several instances when we didn't have a true healer/tank but we managed the instance just fine because we were not undergeared and we actually knew what they heck we were doing.
I wasn't assuming anything except the standard balancing that Blizzard uses. I simply did not want to write two paragraphs explaining where there is leeway and where there is not.I think your mis-understanding is that you have not played a game like CoX, where you do not need ANY kind of healer.
Most instances in WoW are simply not doable by 4 warriors. 4 scrappers in CoX will do quite fine.
You are merely arguing that there is a small amount of leeway in WoW. So what? Its still vastly less flexible than CoX that isn't even in question for those that have played both.
Oh wow you didn't need a TRUE healer, you just use a shaman or something. Whoa that is like revolutionary. Dude I was Feral druid who main healed every single instance in WoW before TBC was released. And often not really by choice. Fact is every single WoW instances basically requires a decent amount of healing going on.
In CoX I don't need ANY kind of healer or ANY kind of tank. At all. In fact some Defenders don't even get heals for power choices. In fact if you goto the Defender boards and call them healers they will throw you out on your ear.
Nor do I need 4 or 5 people. I can be in a group of any size. ANY size and be fine.
ANY size with ANY makeup versus must have 4-5 people and must have at least some kind of healer or semi-healer as one of those people. Its not even close sorry.
You do not need a healer of any kind for some of the instances in WoW. I played a Warrior and my friend played a rogue, we could clear instances our level without a healer. sometimes we would grab a hunter to do CC for us but honestly a good player can do without a healer.. Mind you it was very very slow, it was not the best way to do it but it is possiable.
Sooner or Later
Some people overreact and over-analyze, like you. BUT:
1. My way is not the only way. If it was, many MMOs wouldn't exist.
2. There are plenty of people grouping in WoW.
3. In any MMO there is at least SOME advantage to grouping, whether it be XP, loot, or just the social aspect of it.
4. What you just told me is something I've heard plenty of times. Guild powerlevels a character by zerging everything in site. Is this TRUE player grouping to you? Or just a way to beat the annoying grind WoW offers faster? Please tell me it's not what you think true grouping is.
When I compare the MMOs I had to group and grind in, to the MMOs where I could quest from level 1 to level X without ever saying a word to anyone, I prefer the group grinding.
That was you in the original post. Hello mouth, I'd like you meet foot...
I've never seen a group on WoW doing anything but instance running and the occasional quest. I've grouped up a few times for a quest every now and then because I had to. I got from 1-70 in WoW and almost a full set of epics almost entirely BY MYSELF.
Did what I accomplish add onto the WoW community any? No. Are there a LOT of people doing what I did? YES!
Do I like this? NO!
Do games have to be exactly how Eow wants them to be? NO!
Do I think my ideas are the best thing EVAR!? NO!
Also, I noticed you decided to compare one extreme with another extreme. You compared WoW, which is almost completely solo-able, to an F2P Asian zergfest MMO.
Think about the m i d d l e g r o u n d. The in-between.
Yes, I believe that there is a middle ground and that there are several games that have already reached it. CoX and DDO keep coming up and I think that Eve online also strikes a good balance despite the fact that it's a totally different kind of MMO.
I solo-ed in WoW because it was 10x more viable than grouping.
I grouped in DAoC because it was 10x more viable than soloing.
I loved DAoC because of it's system. I hated WoW because of it's system, which is what I'm arguing against in my main post.
A new, well-populated MMO where grouping is the MOST viable and fun thing to do would take the cake for me.
Does that clear things up? Grouping in WoW was not fun because it was not as viable. No, I'm not talking about tier raids. That's a WHOLE different gripe for me... the stupid "max player per raid so the newer player can't participate in jack unless they somehow make it into a guild that wants their specific class" theory WoW created. Sure, you have heroics, but obviously that isn't the best gear. Not even tier gear is the best if you want to PvP.
Want the best PvP gear? Go AFK in Org for about 6 months while playing 10 games a week at 1500 rating. Sound fun? You betcha! It puts a whole new immersive meaning behind PvP!
Oh wait...
You could do sub 60 instances without a healer, any 70 instance or heroic if you dont have a healer your dead. Ive played wow for 2.5 years now have a fully epiced ssc lvl warrior and im calling bs on anyone that says they can do 70 instances without a healer.
I agree that is a problem with wow, go read the wow forums there are numerous threads talking about shortages of tanks and healers because you have to have them in the high lvl groups. Ofcourse you can do SM without them but 70 instances your screwed. I played Asheron's call for 5 years and grouping was fun because everyone was different and there was no set group that you had to have to be successful. I play Lotro now and it is not horrible with absolutely having to have a healer but it is still prefered.
I think new mmo's need to have group options that are not closed to certain classes, My warrior is fury in wow and even though i can out dps most chars at my gear lvl and always do i cant get in a 5 man instance pug because i dont have CC. So i either have to respec to tank or just go with a guild group.
You're correct, at least until they raise the cap to 80. But that still leaves about 20 instances you can 5 man without a healer, not to mention all the content outside of instances. I can't say that I've tried them all without a healer, but I've done enough to suggest it can be done.
We both think alike.
I am Drunk atm and have a strong urge to rant.....
I was going to try FF XI where grouping was necessary but I think I will give it a pass. So at the moment I am playing DDO.
DDO combat is great and grouping is a lot of fun mainly because of the inbuilt chat system. The only thing missing is meaningful PVP.
Because grouping is very much encouraged in DDO the comunity is absolutely fabulous. Just to give an instance- On my first day of playing DDO I did some solo quests in the beginning and loved the combat(People say you dont need skill to play MMO's those idiots should try DDO). After some time I was just looking for a group and did not know about the LFG function, I just asked in general chat and people from everywhere replied and offered help. I got into a guild and had a blast, we went to the waterworks and it was amazing fun the best I have had in a long time, we joked, we chatted became friends and had fun killing the trolls. In no time I was level 3 without even noticing it. This is how I spent my first day in DDO.
Now to give another instance......I played WoW for around 1 year.....My first day in WoW was doing absolutely mindless quests and trying to chat with people and get to know the community.....Everyone ignored me because they themselves were busy doing mindless quests.....The only time I grouped in WoW was for loot and that was with my school friends.....
Now let other people judge what is better Encouraged grouping or SOLOING LIKE MINDLESS DRONES LOOKING AT THE COOL ENVIRONMENT AND RPing.....WHY DONT THESE SO CALLED CASUAL GAMERS PLAY OBLIVION WITH SKYPE ON.....OR NEVERWINTER NIGHTS. I have nothing against casual gamers I myself am a working individual and have a life outside MMO"s but I play MMO's for having fun.....meeting new people, making friends......Why should I waste my 2 hours doing mindless solo quests and trying to reach the highest level as soon as posible and then PVPing for the sake of it. Give me a break I'd rather watch Telly Tubbies.
People say they want to immerse themselvesin the game by doing solo quests like which hen lay the egg first and looking at the beautiful scenery while doing it. OH REALLY WHAT AMAZING FUN.....I'd rather go to some nice picnic spot and read some novel waaaaaaaaaaay better than staring at the computer screen seeing the OH SO BEAUTIFUL GRAPHICS and carrying pie from one person to another.
My first MMO was Ragnarok.....yes it was an asian grindfest.....yes the graphics were crappy.....but grouping was absolutely necessary after lvl 40. I dont know what RVR is but Ragnarok had a thing called WOE. It is like a siege where you try to deffend or capture a castle.This game required macroing this game requiered skills it was not only point and click you had to go through various armour and skills and you had to do it fast. WOE lasted for 2 hours and it was 2 times a week. If you could capture a castle and defend it for 2 hours it was worth it, It was a pride to have a castle with your banner on it, it was beneficial too as we got free items from the treasure chest in the castle. This is what an MMO is all about.
It is not the industry which has brought MMO's to a state which it is atm. Babies and the so called casual players have done it by crying for solo gameplay. Yes I agree sometimes you need some solo time but asking for solo play till end game is complete BS and utterly rotten.
What I think needs to happen is for a company to be brave and make a game for the minority which likes group play compared to soloing and also likes meaningful PVP. I am myself doing a degree in BDI at the moment and intend to become a game designer and hopefully make a game for gamers like us because from what I see it is not going to happen till someone takes the initiative. Someone needs to take the initiative and try to a MMORPG and not an ORPG. I for the life of me cant seem to comprehend the diffenrence between a single player RPG with multiplayer facilities and MMO's of today.
I know most of you people are already bearing your fangs to rip this post but say what you want I really dont care. I am entitled to my opinion and I have given it.
P.S: I live in Asia so my grammar might be incorrect in some places.
Perhaps others feel differently? Perhaps they like to play solo. Why should they be forced to group up? There's nothing wrong with wanting to group up and I understand your frustration if you had a hard time finding people to group with in WoW, however who is to be blamed? Should you blame it on Blizzard who clearly has given it's players the ability to group up or should it be placed on the individuals who made a CHOICE not to group up? I think it's clear that Blizzard is giving everyone the right to play as they wish which is the best possible decision in my opinion.
lol, you do realize that you are almost a fascist.
But your opinion is obviously valid and it's how you play. I can't however be dismissive of alternate playstyles that encourage the choice of the individual over your "encouraged grouping".
The problem is that you don't quite understand the idea of soloing or you wouldn't be equating it with playinb oblivion or neverwinter nights with skype on. They are not the same as one game allows for social interaction and the other is a solo game.
That's why you don't get it. If I was arrogant I would probably say that it was you who were the drone, relying upon your group in order to be able to get anything out of it to define your role for you and incable of experiencing social interaction unless you have a neat little group to lubricate conversation.
See, that would be wrong and arrogant on my part to actually assert that that is what you experience.
As far as to what the soloer actually "is", the soloer is the Kwai Chang Caine of the mmo world. They go into town, purchase from hawkers selling their wares and then go out in order to meet their destiny, sometimes helping passersby, sometimes uniting with other warriors to take down a great threat, other times descending into the depths in order to face their own fears while promoting their own brand of justice (or evil). Only to emerge (if they are lucky) stronger, more confident and able to travel to the next town that needs his/her help (or to inflict his/her vengeance on the next unsuspecting town... etc)
or.... I can group and hear some guys dumb jokes, how so and so is really high and if they wander off to forgive them as they might not realize, and to put up with others who want to hot chat and make farting sounds.
or... to of course get into a great group with people who are dedicated to the task at hand for a unique and fulfulling experience, perhaps to see them again... or not...
It can be anything.
but "mindless drones" seems based upon your own preconceived notions of what really is going on.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Pappy, the one big thing you are ignoring in your arguments is that the perceptions of players are a lot more important than the reality.
I'm sure everything you say is true about running 4-man instances with no healers. I can totally see that working. But the fact of the matter is, the vast majority of players would not be able to pull that off, especially not in a PUG.
So the reality is, for all practical purposes, in WoW, you pretty much have to have a healer and a tank and 3 other people for PUGs.
You also have to have people close to the same level if you want decent XP.
You also have to have similar quest backgrounds if you want to everyone to get credit for the current quests if a quest chain is involved (and it usually is).
You also have to get lucky in a random roll if you hope to take advantage of the main reason for grouping (the loot).
Making things work with a bunch of strangers can be hard enough, but please face facts ... grouping in WoW can be a challenge for people who know each other, insurmountable for people who don't.
Sorry, Pappy, I respect your opinions a lot, but you will never convince me that WoW is group-friendly AT ALL.In the above argument you counter gestalt's assumptions by adding your own, the biggest being that people are going to have the gear they need to make up for deficiencies in class diversity.
In reality, if you are trying to scrounge together a pick-up group, you are probably not the sort of player who has been able to score the best gear. When you are a veteran with a lot of friends, it's really hard to imagine what life must be like for newer or more casual players.
I have often argued myself that WoW is an extremely robust game, capable of being a lot of things to a lot of different types of players. However, group-friendliness is NOT one of those strengths. The difficulties and restrictions on grouping are just slightly too harsh to make it worth a player's time to look for one every time he logs in.
Yes, I said every time. There are games (CoH) where it is that easy. And yet, in those same games, you can solo to max level if you choose. But grouping is faster and more fun in a lot of ways, not just because of the XP bonus. In WoW, the opposite is true -- grouping is difficult, inefficient, and usually slower XP. The only reward for grouping is the loot ... if you're lucky enough to win a decent drop.
Sorry, I somehow missed your post my first time thru, (got sidetracked with Gestalt).
You are forgetting one major difference between WoW and CoX. In CoX, none of the instances are any different difficulty wise. Every instance is based off the number of members in your group and their relative levels when you enter them. It matters little whether you run an instance in the very first zone you enter or one that you go into later on because the mobs you will find there will match your groups size and level. I have not played CoX to a high level so perhaps it changes a bit as you go, but initially this is true.
WoW is different. The difficulty of the instance itself is preset and it's up to the group entering the dungeon to determine if they can handle the instance or not. You will only require a healer and a tank if the rest of the members of the group are in the proverbial "in over their heads" group. You're absolutely correct that most PUG's won't be able to do the instance without them, but it's because the people you find in PUG's generally have no clue how to play their class WITHOUT a tank and a healer. However, I have with my guildmates many many times gone into an instance without them knowing full well that we would each be responsible for ourselves. Use your drop aggro skills to drop aggro and bandage. CC whenever possible. Use a pot from time to time. Eat between fights while the mana users are drinking. This is all very possible and very doable, it's just that the average PUG doesn't have a clue how to do it. That doesn't mean it can't be done, simply that it's not the "easy" way to do it.
It's all how you approach it. Some people start out saying "I want to run Blackfathom Deeps" for instance. So they then go about looking for a group. Nevermind that they are level 21 and barely able to run Deadmines let alone BFD, they just assume that since they have the quests that they should be able to go and run BFD. And they would if they were able to find a group of 4 others who were more like level 25 or so and one of them happened to be a healer and another a tank who can protect this weak link since he is going to contribute very little to the group as a whole.
But if instead this person were to say, "Well I'd like to run BFD, but my gear and level are really better suited toward deadmines" and they set out to find a group for deadmines, they won't have to be so picky about which group they get. You could find a hunter, rogue, couple of mages and a warrior and run thru deadmines just fine. You wouldn't need a healer at all because they would be able to take down practically anything they came across fairly easily provided they each understood their roles.
In PUG's, yes, but who said anything about PUG's? I'm not under the impression that you HAVE to run instances with PUG's. I almost NEVER do that because it's very frustrating because at least 1/2 the group has no clue what they are doing and the other half that do end up having to save their skin by healing them and pulling aggro off them (the role of the healers and the tank).
If you get in a guild and play with some folks who know what they are doing, it totally blows the theory out of the water. It's not hard to find a decent guild, all you have to do is look for players that seem to know what they are doing and find out what guild they are in and ask to join. Now if you have no clue what you are doing, then yes that does make it a bit tough since you don't know what to look for. But I'm sorry, ignorance is no excuse. Play a little bit solo and do without a healer or tank, rely only on yourself. Is it impossible? No, it simply requires that you do things like learn how to mitigate damage, learn how to stun or trap or somehow disable the mob long enough for you to bandage. Keep a supply of pots with you and drink them in those few occasions where nothing else will work.
The facts are that there are a lot of people that NEED to be in a group with a healer/tank because they simply aren't good enough to do without them. But even those people can be taught to play without relying on a healer/tank. And of course you don't ALWAYS have to go without one or the other or both, but it's nice to not HAVE to rely on them.
And yes I understand that as you get close to the cap, things change a bit and you do pretty much have to have a healer and a tank, but 80% of the way to cap can be done without them and then once you reach cap, it's actually quite easy to find healers and tanks for the most part because they ARE in demand then.
I thought I would add my two cents, or maybe reiterate what has already been established >.>
Someone suggested earlier in the topic that groupers will group and soloers will solo. I prefer incentives to group, but I also want efficiency. I think most players will be guided toward efficiency, not preference of play. Even if I like grouping, if it offers me virtually nothing, I am not going to do it.
I also saw someone indicate that you can effectively group in WoW, dropping a number like 114 hours of play time from 1-70. The group also reached around 40 people or so. I never heard of this, but I do remember the first guy who reached 70 when the new expansion hit. Took him 28 hours if I recall. He did not do it by running dungeons or anything. He had a raid and they helped him powerlevel. From what I understand, if that one player trying to level hits a mob and lets the low leveled raid kill it, he will get a good deal of the xp. It will also be much faster. This is probably the same way the other guy did it. Obviously, this is an impractical means of levelling for the vast majority of players because few have such guild connections/guilds willing to do it.
By ordinary means, I seriously doubt WoW offers much of an advantage to average groups (5 mans or lower) trying to level, if any at all.