I think it's really sad that you sandbox people think people who play WoW are dummies. If WoW is for dumb players why is it so popular. Why are we supposedly dumb players apart of the most popular game in the WORLD!!! WoW is the number one game in the world. Now you tell me who's the dummy.
I think it's really sad that you sandbox people think people who play WoW are dummies. If WoW is for dumb players why is it so popular. Why are we supposedly dumb players apart of the most popular game in the WORLD!!! WoW is the number one game in the world. Now you tell me who's the dummy. Captain Fanboi (I'm awesome)
People are smart because they are smarter then the average Joe.
People are dummies, because they are more dummier then others. So WoW is for the average Joe. Nothing wrong with it.
What happend to Sandbox MMO's? Well its called EvE online, and people find it to hard because it is sandbox right from the start. No hand helding. Thats where stuff went wrong. The game is fun from the beginning, as long as you don't try to understand everything.
WoW does not meet the criteria to classify it into a sandbox design. That's a fact, not my opinion.
I acted childlish, that's also a fact. The reasons behind my behavior could make it more or less justifiable, but that's a matter of opinion, but it has nothing to do with the point, unless you use the behavior to totally ignore it.
In your analogy, the customer stated something that just happened, that's why i would agree with him. Zorndorf is stating something that doesn't happen.
About what makes a game sandbox, well, you have plenty of features stated all over the thread. Player driven economy, skill based character development, dynamic world changes, and there are more. Just because no one posted a full comprehensive and detailed list of core features doesn't mean all posters have different views of what a whole sandbox concept is. Some pointed one of them, some a few, and many just pointing out the differences between the statements of Zorndorf and the sandbox counterpart, you have an example in my previous post.
While you keep attacking how i tried to make my point, you still fail at aknowledging the point: That i got angry at someone eating a Granny Smith saying that his orange is the same as my Navel, and that i'm delusional if i think he's eating an apple.
Now go ahead, keep ignoring the point completely and make jokes about fruits. That sure is constructive.
WoW does not meet the criteria to classify it into a sandbox design. That's a fact, not my opinion. I acted childlish, that's also a fact. The reasons behind my behavior could make it more or less justifiable, but that's a matter of opinion, but it has nothing to do with the point, unless you use the behavior to totally ignore it. In your analogy, the customer stated something that just happened, that's why i would agree with him. Zorndorf is stating something that doesn't happen. About what makes a game sandbox, well, you have plenty of features stated all over the thread. Player driven economy, skill based character development, dynamic world changes, and there are more. Just because no one posted a full comprehensive and detailed list of core features doesn't mean all posters have different views of what a whole sandbox concept is. Some pointed one of them, some a few, and many just pointing out the differences between the statements of Zorndorf and the sandbox counterpart, you have an example in my previous post. While you keep attacking how i tried to make my point, you still fail at aknowledging the point: That i got angry at someone eating a Granny Smith saying that his orange is the same as my Navel, and that i'm delusional if i think he's eating an apple. Now go ahead, keep ignoring the point completely and make jokes about fruits. That sure is constructive.
I think WoW could be a sandbox game if you really put in the effort and time. Any game you play is what you make of it, if Zorndorf believes WoW is a sandbox game, than to him it IS a sandbox game because he put in the time and effort to find things to do. That man's a GENIUS!!!
The easiest way to define the differances of a sandbox mmo to one that is not, is to read and educate oneself on the subject. If you want to know what a sandbox mmo is all about, go the homepages of the new crop of mmorpg's coming out like, Darkfall, Earthrise, Crusades, and Fallen Earth. There you can see and read the differances of how the gameplay mechanics and whole structure of the game is an exact opposite of titles such as WOW, AOC, COH, LOTR, SWG NGE and all the other class/lvl based mmo's on the market. No need to sit and bicker back and forth on the subject.
I think it's an interesting discussion when I can see various opinions on what *is* a sandbox mmo (for example, WoW does not spring to mind as being sandbox - though since I see it as a matter of degree). It seems to me that categorization / classification of games as being "sandbox" is not a rule-based categorization, but instead an exemplar-based categorization with a ambiguous exemplar in use (perhaps somewhat based on experiences with prior mmos).
I'm interested in what features are *most* central to the sandbox mmorpg. Open world? Skill based? Character advancement / progression (or would losing that make it less of a rpg)? Player driven economy (and player production / crafting) necessary? Player driven politics (ala Tale in the Desert)? Free for all PVP? Real world physics? Etc.
All of those features seem to me to be immersion building - all answers to "if I could do X in the *real* world, why couldn't I do this in the game?". But I'm also interested in immersion building features that don't seem to be offered up as much when describing sandbox mmorpgs - like better AI (why would a NPC stand at that location all day? why would they respawn? why don't they run when I'm about to kill them? Why doesn't the NPC run over there to their friends and ask for help) - other "systems" as another poster mentioned, along with the interaction between systems (say economy and better AI) that results in emergent gameplay - for example, if PCs mine most of a (scarce, nonrenewable) resource, and the price goes up because of scarcity, why don't some NPCs quit their jobs (as quest givers? how well does *that* pay) and go out and mine it themselves?
I think of the extreme end of "sandboxihood" as a (fantasy, sci-fi, pick your genre) world simulator. Something where player goals are not clearly dictated. So when I hear of games (Earthrise seems intriguing), I anxiously rummage through any available details in the hopes of seeing something about new AI, etc.
In terms of "sandboxy" character development, I'm cautiously optimistic about Champions Online. The Champions pen-and-paper RPG had a pretty open character creation systems, and I think it would take something like GURPS to get me more excited about character development.
Sadly most people who play games aren't smart enough or creative enough to keep playing sanboxes, it seems. Most gamers apparently need to be spoonfed levels, classes, restrictions, and loots. Look at the 10 million cronies playing WoW. That game has kept these people happy for YEARS! The industry knows this and that's why all we see are these linear games. I would say, in fact, the problem is more the players than the developers.
OMG Give up on life and go back to playing wow noone is saying wow is the worst game in the world so please get over it . The point is most wow kiddies that have been playing for years have been cause they never knew what an MMORPG REALLY was then WoW came out. All they knew was DragonballZ and craptastice bull. Thats why when they play a real game and get spanked in it they come cry here and run back to WoW in failure denial.
Go Loose all you have made in the game over 6 months in one missile volley and then come here and say you enjoyed it then we can talk.
Now that people are sick of the spoon fed dribble coming out and are voicing up about it we expect the indusrtie to listen and develop the game we will enjoy. But no some asshat like you has to come in here ans spout WoW fanboisme.
PLEASE GO PLAY WOW IF YOUR SO DAMN HAPPY WITH IT!!!!
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
I think of the extreme end of "sandboxihood" as a (fantasy, sci-fi, pick your genre) world simulator. Something where player goals are not clearly dictated.
That would be a core feature of sandbox that collides with linear concept. With linear design, you are expected to follow a pretty defined path. With more or less options, but always enclosed in that path.
Sandbox is way closer to a virtual world in videogame form than a videogame made to be played from beginning to end. That's why end-game is a term not used for sandbox games.
Imo, a better AI would benefit both styles though, or at least i cannot see any reason why it should belong to one or another exclusively. I always loved how wild animals AI acted in Ryzom. Carnivores hunting herbivores, forming packs, approaching the player just out of curiosity, observe, snuff, then leave, migrating depending on season, even looking for shelter when it was raining. Heck, you could be quietly digging and notice by the nervous movement of the herbivores that a dangerous animal was approaching. It was still pretty simple, but it made you feel as part of a living, breathing world, not roaming around aimlessly with its sole purpose to be killed by the player.
WoW does not meet the criteria to classify it into a sandbox design. That's a fact, not my opinion. I acted childlish, that's also a fact. The reasons behind my behavior could make it more or less justifiable, but that's a matter of opinion, but it has nothing to do with the point, unless you use the behavior to totally ignore it. In your analogy, the customer stated something that just happened, that's why i would agree with him. Zorndorf is stating something that doesn't happen. About what makes a game sandbox, well, you have plenty of features stated all over the thread. Player driven economy, skill based character development, dynamic world changes, and there are more. Just because no one posted a full comprehensive and detailed list of core features doesn't mean all posters have different views of what a whole sandbox concept is. Some pointed one of them, some a few, and many just pointing out the differences between the statements of Zorndorf and the sandbox counterpart, you have an example in my previous post. While you keep attacking how i tried to make my point, you still fail at aknowledging the point: That i got angry at someone eating a Granny Smith saying that his orange is the same as my Navel, and that i'm delusional if i think he's eating an apple. Now go ahead, keep ignoring the point completely and make jokes about fruits. That sure is constructive.
My first point was that the name calling was childish.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here that this is a legitimate difference of opinion, but there's no need to get angry at anyone about thinking your navel is an orange and licking it.
My second point was that the definition of what is or is not sandbox is not universally agreed upon. I don't see WoW as *not* being sandbox, I see it as being *much less* sandbox than other games.
Based on my second point, your stating that "WoW is not a sandbox" is an opinion. I asked you to justify it (by providing a list of necessary and sufficient criteria to categorize something as a sandbox), which you have not.
To put it another way, if you get a screwdriver and remove the pedals from your bicycle, does it *cease to be* a bicycle?
In other words (okay, this time I'll make it explicit), if WoW doesn't have X, Y, and Z, does it make it not a "sandbox". Are X, Y, and Z *necessary and sufficient* features for categorizing a mmorpg as a sandbox? I'll agree that WoW doesn't have X, Y, and Z, and that X, Y, and Z are "sandboxy" elements I might think of when someone says sandbox. But maybe there are apples without seeds, too. Ones that you can order in a restaurant we call "life".
2. You can choose to ignore all the NPC with the ! and ? over their heads, true, but you're expected not to. At least, the game is designed around the idea that almost all players will follow the directions given to them -> not sandbox
3. Best gear is usually mob loot -> not sandbox
4. The world doesn't dynamically change with players actions, with unexpected results. As in...all servers are pretty much the same when it comes to available content or general conditions -> not sandbox
5. No way to have a character sitting at combat level 1 and be an awesome, high level gear crafter -> not sandbox
There could be more, and way better explained, but that's all i can come with right now, and easily proves why WoW isn't sitting on the sandbox side.
I played 1 game where all 5 conditions were met, and another where, althought it wasn't strictly class based, it wasn't skill based either, and i'm sure many other posters have played other games that also pass this very small test.
Thank you for submitting all your own defintions of sandboxes. I ve seen about 8 different definitions here. To the last poster. Tx for the effort. But my main goal here was to show that WOW/TBC Anno 2008 changed a LOT since Nov 2007. And I guess with the constructable fortresses in WotlK with the added siege engine systems...these are just a next step in further evolution to even more choices of play (and crafting ) . I agree with most of what you all said BTW. ----- As for stealth: well my paladin crafted a tool I can do stealth with ) and indeed I can craft a rocket launcher doing BIG distance damage. (just teasing but I can ...) But have a nice day in that universal unexsistent universe called sandbox.
No, you don't agree with what people said. Your posts show a lack of understanding in what people are trying to show you.
Again, even though at the present WoW offers more choices and multiple method of play-style than before, it is STILL NOT A SAND BOX GAME NOR WILL IT EVER BE.
If you want to show how WoW to be a sandbox game, answer the questions I asked in my previous posts...
As for the other poster who listed what people mentioned as sandbox - some elements are counted as the core of sandbox, such as:
1.) Dynamic world - where what you, the player, do matter and affect the world. May it be through the combat system, crafting system, or political system.
2.) Freedom in character design - which means you can choose your own playstyle, and design your character as such. If you want, you can go from a combat character to non-combat character, or if you want, you can be just a crafter and have other supply you with materials and in return, you give them items which help on their own game play.
3.) Community-based game play - where most, if not all, systems focus on the ability of players coming together to build the game world, and these systems give players the abilities to creates an evolving world rather than just a game.
Others elements are associated with these core element and their designs are derived from the core. These are:
1.) seemless world with limited or no instance (dynamic world)
2.) full loot, open world pvp (dynamic world)
3.) player-based economic where most items are made by players, not by NPC drop loot. (dynamic world)
4.) skill-based rather than class/level based (freedom in character design)
5.) removing character level as power indicator (freedom in character design/community-based game play).
Of course, some elements are debatable, but the core remains the same. Hence the definition of "sandbox" never changes.
Some of you do not understand the world of MMO's that is for sure. If the game has classes, it is NOT a sandbox. A sandbox means you can define your character as you like which is impossible when classes are present. Doom3 is not even a MMO, it is a FPS, if you can't understand the difference what are you doing on this site?
Um, having classes does not by any means restrict the world from being a sandbox. Granted, most MMO's that try the sandbox way are classless, skill-based systems, but freedom to define your character without restrictions is only a part of being a true sandbox MMO.
IMO 'sandbox'-style refers to a persistant world where you can interact with most things in a logical manner, and you are not forced to particular paths for your advancement. A game where I can, if I like, stop adventuring and doing quests and instead just, say, craft items and trade them and still play a meaningful game, is very far towards the sandbox end of the scale.
Also, the freedom to choose your path and goals sets sandboxes apart from 'linear' MMO's. My goal may not be to advance to 'end-game' content and to raid and PVP, and if the game doesn't push me towards that path, then IMO it's well on its way to being a sandbox.
the closest thing to a sandbox game right now is vanguard.. and it is excellent
other than that, whenever someone trys to make a sandbox game a million players scream vaporwear... i believe eventually some will be coming out tho... and am going to play vanguard until then
But really, if your spiteful hatred didn't blind you so much, you might realize that WoW is infact one of the more "sandbox'd" mmorpgs around.
What i hear often is that WoW's crafting system fails - Wrong ever since TBC it's been quite strong, with a lot of items being either on par or even better than certain raid items. (dragon strike being the best one hander for fury/ench/rogue until the Azzinoth demon hunter blades came around), the 2h mace being the best pvp weapon for a long time, but due to popular looks the 2h axe and sword found it's way to many people as well.
Alchemists: Oh boy, in the start, the first months of TBC it was all about discovring the newst flasks and they did it quite nicely as well.
Leather working: Being one myself, i found many reasons to keep it even after i had finally found upgrades to my CRAFTED gear, through raiding. But thanks to it having a nice number of other feats other than just making armor pieces i just had to keep it.
Enchanting: really it's one of those; "must have an enchanter friend", do i need to add more?
jewelcrafting: Well you need them, like you need the sun for a day......
Tailoring: I've seen people run around in the crafting cloth sets for so many months, i thought it was absurd but then again those pieces were godly.
Well the gathering professions are as always in heavy demand, and as a miner i saw myself taking a stroll "around the globe" quite often.
I don't know what really to tell those people, who say crafting is useless and inferior to raiding gear, other than the fact it's bull beyond belief. And certainly you never go from crap random greens to BT/Sunwell raiding gear out of the blue moon, unless you were extremely lucky to be the gear leecher.
Crafting does it's purpose perfectly, shows the determination of the players who wants to be well equipped, before they venture into the high raiding.
For PvP, there's plentiful of options, to spent your day with, however people only think on the best way to get to it of course that's why, we often only hear about the Battlegrounds/Arena, when there are a lot more options than that.
I was never a "daily quest guy" but there exist a lot of those and they have their own merits with reputation rewards through weird, funny, and cool mounts, most of the items of course aren't that great if you were decked out in BT+ gear but saying there was nothing there, is wrong.
The social hub, yes that's what WoW has become, where people talk about how their day went, they colored their hair, guild/realm drama (there's always plenty of that). WoW can easily become a grand soap drama and better than those you might see on TV, not to mention people seem to like making sure there's drama around. This kind i've rarely seen in other mmorpgs, at least not as entertaining and massive as WoW can do it., why? Because in WoW your own realm can seem like the popular one, even though for all the other people, on their own realm, theirs will seem like "IT!". Other mmorpgs will have the simple one, where a selective few guilds (all servers combined) will create the drama.
Exploring strange places or weird bugs for the surroundings. There are few mmorpgs that makes you look at certain things longer than the, "moment of passing by". Well for WoW there's often been the times where you gather around a weird place and try explorer it, since you never got around to it or actually tried venture into it before.
Back in the day of "new epic plans", i remember when fighting for nodes and building teams just to be sure that the other faction didn't have their way with the region's veins. Yes it's the age of Arcanite Reaper, when it was about "one leet guy taking his time to get the arcanite reaper plans" and the others "hording the insane amount of materials", well spent of course, since that axe's days of being on the throne was long indeed, did i mention it was crafted? Later on it was Sulfuras, hand of Ragnarus, which also had it's time on the throne for quite some time, not as long as you might hope for a legendary 2h'er which could take painfully long to create. I don't think i'll need to mention Thunderfury, since it's time of use may be the longest of all, oh and both that and Sulfarus was crafted as well. Thunderfury being it through a questline, with a lovely final battle, which in the early days, was like a server event, since the giant boss that spawned was a sight to behold back then. Sulfarus being all about combining The Eye of Sulfarus, with the insane material-heavy hammer.
Argh.... Now i turned my post into a rant but really for a final note :
If you want to make a remark about how WoW is "the furthest away from being a Sand box", then come here with 1st hand information, and not 3rd hand. The people i see bashing WoW are either some, who never played it, or haven't played it since Jesus walked the earth.
And i'm not even playing WoW myself any more, feb 2008, so my own information is turning into 2nd hand (oh the irony), but gosh.... It's been more of a Sandbox mmorpg with a lot of options, than most mmorpgs. But as stated before, Sand box mmos are dying because of the indirect demand to make so many limitation, which kills the whole "freedom/sand box", in certain mmorpgs.
But really, if your spiteful hatred didn't blind you so much, you might realize that WoW is infact one of the more "sandbox'd" mmorpgs around.
What i hear often is that WoW's crafting system fails - Wrong ever since TBC it's been quite strong, with a lot of items being either on par or even better than certain raid items. (dragon strike being the best one hander for fury/ench/rogue until the Azzinoth demon hunter blades came around), the 2h mace being the best pvp weapon for a long time, but due to popular looks the 2h axe and sword found it's way to many people as well.
Alchemists: Oh boy, in the start, the first months of TBC it was all about discovring the newst flasks and they did it quite nicely as well.
Leather working: Being one myself, i found many reasons to keep it even after i had finally found upgrades to my CRAFTED gear, through raiding. But thanks to it having a nice number of other feats other than just making armor pieces i just had to keep it.
Enchanting: really it's one of those; "must have an enchanter friend", do i need to add more?
jewelcrafting: Well you need them, like you need the sun for a day......
Tailoring: I've seen people run around in the crafting cloth sets for so many months, i thought it was absurd but then again those pieces were godly.
Well the gathering professions are as always in heavy demand, and as a miner i saw myself taking a stroll "around the globe" quite often.
I don't know what really to tell those people, who say crafting is useless and inferior to raiding gear, other than the fact it's bull beyond belief. And certainly you never go from crap random greens to BT/Sunwell raiding gear out of the blue moon, unless you were extremely lucky to be the gear leecher.
Crafting does it's purpose perfectly, shows the determination of the players who wants to be well equipped, before they venture into the high raiding. So youre saying here that WoW has a deep crafting system? WHOOP DE FREAKIN DO!!!!! Oh. I see how it is. Since WoW's crafting system has improved, all of a sudden its like a sandbox. Yep Yep. Totally like a sandbox. /sarcasm For PvP, there's plentiful of options, to spent your day with, however people only think on the best way to get to it of course that's why, we often only hear about the Battlegrounds/Arena, when there are a lot more options than that. Does WOW have FFA PvP? NO. Does WOW have ANY SORT OF CORPSE LOOTING? NO. WoW'S PvP is NOT SANDBOX!
I was never a "daily quest guy" but there exist a lot of those and they have their own merits with reputation rewards through weird, funny, and cool mounts, most of the items of course aren't that great if you were decked out in BT+ gear but saying there was nothing there, is wrong.
The social hub, yes that's what WoW has become, where people talk about how their day went, they colored their hair, guild/realm drama (there's always plenty of that). WoW can easily become a grand soap drama and better than those you might see on TV, not to mention people seem to like making sure there's drama around. This kind i've rarely seen in other mmorpgs, at least not as entertaining and massive as WoW can do it., why? Because in WoW your own realm can seem like the popular one, even though for all the other people, on their own realm, theirs will seem like "IT!". Other mmorpgs will have the simple one, where a selective few guilds (all servers combined) will create the drama. GUESS WHAT? GUILD DRAMA HAS NOTHING, NOTHING TO DO WITH SANDBOX MMO'S. NICE JOB WASTING BANDWIDTH.
Exploring strange places or weird bugs for the surroundings. There are few mmorpgs that makes you look at certain things longer than the, "moment of passing by". Well for WoW there's often been the times where you gather around a weird place and try explorer it, since you never got around to it or actually tried venture into it before. Lol.
Back in the day of "new epic plans", i remember when fighting for nodes and building teams just to be sure that the other faction didn't have their way with the region's veins. Yes it's the age of Arcanite Reaper, when it was about "one leet guy taking his time to get the arcanite reaper plans" and the others "hording the insane amount of materials", well spent of course, since that axe's days of being on the throne was long indeed, did i mention it was crafted? Later on it was Sulfuras, hand of Ragnarus, which also had it's time on the throne for quite some time, not as long as you might hope for a legendary 2h'er which could take painfully long to create. I don't think i'll need to mention Thunderfury, since it's time of use may be the longest of all, oh and both that and Sulfarus was crafted as well. Thunderfury being it through a questline, with a lovely final battle, which in the early days, was like a server event, since the giant boss that spawned was a sight to behold back then. Sulfarus being all about combining The Eye of Sulfarus, with the insane material-heavy hammer.
Argh.... Now i turned my post into a rant but really for a final note :
If you want to make a remark about how WoW is "the furthest away from being a Sand box", then come here with 1st hand information, and not 3rd hand. The people i see bashing WoW are either some, who never played it, or haven't played it since Jesus walked the earth. Sounds like you need to take a dose of your own medicine. Come back here when you know what a sandbox mmo is, because you CLEARLY do not know what it is through this advertisement for WoW. And i'm not even playing WoW myself any more, feb 2008, so my own information is turning into 2nd hand (oh the irony), but gosh.... It's been more of a Sandbox mmorpg with a lot of options, than most mmorpgs. But as stated before, Sand box mmos are dying because of the indirect demand to make so many limitation, which kills the whole "freedom/sand box", in certain mmorpgs.
I got tired of reading these posts. Zorndorf, or whatever his name is, proved why sandboxes don't exist while trying to show how WOW is a sandbox. What Blizzard achieved was a level of addiction so overwhelmingly insidious and controlling that even the fanboy players don't notice it, but all other development teams and publishing houses covet and idolize it. By letting people get near the top of the mountain, but never see the other side (ie reach 60, get most of your raid gear, then expansion; reach 70, get most of your raid gear, wait here comes the next expansion; rinse, repeat), they insure that by praying on a player's need to be the best, that the ones who are close will never quit, and the ones on bottom always look up. The root of the problem is gear that is so uber, so hard to get, that most players can't function without it when matched against an opponent with even skill, much less superior skill. So, to protect the gear, the game cannot allow players to lose it. Thus, it is a race to look just like everyone else, with the same armor and weapon capabilities, and nothing unique. Hell, they don't even have dyes to change the color.
There are many reasons why WOW is a fun passtime, and there are many reasons why it is a bad game and why there are, or were many better games. However, the corporate side has a hard time ignoring the money, and the trammies have a hard time stepping out of their safety nets.
To answer the original poster: what happened to sandbox MMO's was that people who make up the majority of WOW subscribers bitched and moaned every time a PK made them pee their pants and took the shiney new sword they had just used mommy's credit card and paypal to buy from someone who got the sword by either surviving a free-for-all dungeon or killing someone else who tried to. Eventually the cacaphony of whiney voices reached a fever pitch causing the development team to cave in to the pressure to either eliminate game features that the carebears abhorred, or provide an alternate world for them where they would never have to face any danger whatsoever.
In short, I give you Trammel. And with one last fizzle the sandbox was no more.
Trammies need to stop polluting the MMORPG landscape. They already have enough games in which to emote hugs and sell garbage by the banks.
I would accept FFA PvP in a game if there were some things done to keep it in check.
First if you go around killing people randomly or stealing from them then you get a bounty placed on your head and can't go to normal towns. Most guards in town or in the outside world will kill you on site.
Second items in the game are not of monumental value and don't require lots of time to put together. Make it so that you can at least replace your old items with decent ones quickly even if they aren't as good as what you had before.
It would be great to see some kind of jail for being a criminal. I'm not sure how this would work as the PKs would not like to spend their time in jail for a half hour. It would end up with them quiting the game. Still it would be neat to see some type of implementation of this.
The last thing that would be needed is a bounty hunter system. Criminals have a bounty placed on their heads in towns depending on how many times they have stolen or randomly killed people. People can then kill them and collect money in town for it.
OP / go-obama you should try out EVE for a bit perhaps. Other day was in my recon ship trying to relay recon information to my Alliance. Some reds jumped into our system and starting owning. After the fight was over I uncloak and loot everyone whether friend or foe :P
But I havent had a rich haul like it sounds like you have in Runescape. Thank you for that story that would be great to get rich like that in EVE. unfortunately most of the time the ships goes kaboom so all you can hope for is rigs and good loot. You know the drill
"Because the definition of apples isn't universal accepted."
Priceless.
I can't believe how many relativists crept out from under their rocks to defend that philosophical turd. Guess what. 2 + 2 = 4, not 3, not 5. Objectivity has spoken, there will be no debate. Thank you.
Trammies need to stop polluting the MMORPG landscape. They already have enough games in which to emote hugs and sell garbage by the banks.
WoW is as far from a Sandbox as you can get. AoC is right behind it. If you had played the original UO or Pre-CU SWG, you would know the difference is tremendous.
WoW is more of a sandbox then AoC though. At least you can go do things like fish if you choose to do so. There is more exploration such as underwater exploration. Still it's not really a sandbox.
Without reading all of the bantering back and forth, sorry all, I will answer the question posed by the title of the thread. What happened to Sandbox MMOs? Same thing that happens with so many Sandboxes in the world. Some unknown stray mutts come along and defecate in the sandbox until all the kiddies decide it is not much of a sandbox, and more of a shitbox, and thusly no longer worth playing in. Even if a new sandbox is built, learning from the past, there is an innate fear or worry that it too will in short time be made into nothing beyond a neighborhood crapper also
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I think it's really sad that you sandbox people think people who play WoW are dummies. If WoW is for dumb players why is it so popular. Why are we supposedly dumb players apart of the most popular game in the WORLD!!! WoW is the number one game in the world. Now you tell me who's the dummy.
Captain Fanboi
(I'm awesome)
People are smart because they are smarter then the average Joe.
People are dummies, because they are more dummier then others. So WoW is for the average Joe. Nothing wrong with it.
What happend to Sandbox MMO's? Well its called EvE online, and people find it to hard because it is sandbox right from the start. No hand helding. Thats where stuff went wrong. The game is fun from the beginning, as long as you don't try to understand everything.
WoW is as sandbox as Doom 3
WoW does not meet the criteria to classify it into a sandbox design. That's a fact, not my opinion.
I acted childlish, that's also a fact. The reasons behind my behavior could make it more or less justifiable, but that's a matter of opinion, but it has nothing to do with the point, unless you use the behavior to totally ignore it.
In your analogy, the customer stated something that just happened, that's why i would agree with him. Zorndorf is stating something that doesn't happen.
About what makes a game sandbox, well, you have plenty of features stated all over the thread. Player driven economy, skill based character development, dynamic world changes, and there are more. Just because no one posted a full comprehensive and detailed list of core features doesn't mean all posters have different views of what a whole sandbox concept is. Some pointed one of them, some a few, and many just pointing out the differences between the statements of Zorndorf and the sandbox counterpart, you have an example in my previous post.
While you keep attacking how i tried to make my point, you still fail at aknowledging the point: That i got angry at someone eating a Granny Smith saying that his orange is the same as my Navel, and that i'm delusional if i think he's eating an apple.
Now go ahead, keep ignoring the point completely and make jokes about fruits. That sure is constructive.
I think WoW could be a sandbox game if you really put in the effort and time. Any game you play is what you make of it, if Zorndorf believes WoW is a sandbox game, than to him it IS a sandbox game because he put in the time and effort to find things to do. That man's a GENIUS!!!
Captain Fanboi
I think it's an interesting discussion when I can see various opinions on what *is* a sandbox mmo (for example, WoW does not spring to mind as being sandbox - though since I see it as a matter of degree). It seems to me that categorization / classification of games as being "sandbox" is not a rule-based categorization, but instead an exemplar-based categorization with a ambiguous exemplar in use (perhaps somewhat based on experiences with prior mmos).
I'm interested in what features are *most* central to the sandbox mmorpg. Open world? Skill based? Character advancement / progression (or would losing that make it less of a rpg)? Player driven economy (and player production / crafting) necessary? Player driven politics (ala Tale in the Desert)? Free for all PVP? Real world physics? Etc.
All of those features seem to me to be immersion building - all answers to "if I could do X in the *real* world, why couldn't I do this in the game?". But I'm also interested in immersion building features that don't seem to be offered up as much when describing sandbox mmorpgs - like better AI (why would a NPC stand at that location all day? why would they respawn? why don't they run when I'm about to kill them? Why doesn't the NPC run over there to their friends and ask for help) - other "systems" as another poster mentioned, along with the interaction between systems (say economy and better AI) that results in emergent gameplay - for example, if PCs mine most of a (scarce, nonrenewable) resource, and the price goes up because of scarcity, why don't some NPCs quit their jobs (as quest givers? how well does *that* pay) and go out and mine it themselves?
I think of the extreme end of "sandboxihood" as a (fantasy, sci-fi, pick your genre) world simulator. Something where player goals are not clearly dictated. So when I hear of games (Earthrise seems intriguing), I anxiously rummage through any available details in the hopes of seeing something about new AI, etc.
In terms of "sandboxy" character development, I'm cautiously optimistic about Champions Online. The Champions pen-and-paper RPG had a pretty open character creation systems, and I think it would take something like GURPS to get me more excited about character development.
OMG Give up on life and go back to playing wow
noone is saying wow is the worst game in the world so please get over it 
. The point is most wow kiddies that have been playing for years have been cause they never knew what an MMORPG REALLY was then WoW came out. All they knew was DragonballZ and craptastice bull. Thats why when they play a real game and get spanked in it they come cry here and run back to WoW in failure denial.
Go Loose all you have made in the game over 6 months in one missile volley and then come here and say you enjoyed it then we can talk.
Now that people are sick of the spoon fed dribble coming out and are voicing up about it we expect the indusrtie to listen and develop the game we will enjoy. But no some asshat like you has to come in here ans spout WoW fanboisme.
PLEASE GO PLAY WOW IF YOUR SO DAMN HAPPY WITH IT!!!!
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
WoW is a sandbox?
.....
Wow is a sandbox?
LOL
1. WoW has a strict class system.
2. WoW's PvP is a joke.
3. WoW is one giant Item Farm
WOW IS NOT A SANDBOX.
That would be a core feature of sandbox that collides with linear concept. With linear design, you are expected to follow a pretty defined path. With more or less options, but always enclosed in that path.
Sandbox is way closer to a virtual world in videogame form than a videogame made to be played from beginning to end. That's why end-game is a term not used for sandbox games.
Imo, a better AI would benefit both styles though, or at least i cannot see any reason why it should belong to one or another exclusively. I always loved how wild animals AI acted in Ryzom. Carnivores hunting herbivores, forming packs, approaching the player just out of curiosity, observe, snuff, then leave, migrating depending on season, even looking for shelter when it was raining. Heck, you could be quietly digging and notice by the nervous movement of the herbivores that a dangerous animal was approaching. It was still pretty simple, but it made you feel as part of a living, breathing world, not roaming around aimlessly with its sole purpose to be killed by the player.
My first point was that the name calling was childish.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here that this is a legitimate difference of opinion, but there's no need to get angry at anyone about thinking your navel is an orange and licking it.
My second point was that the definition of what is or is not sandbox is not universally agreed upon. I don't see WoW as *not* being sandbox, I see it as being *much less* sandbox than other games.
Based on my second point, your stating that "WoW is not a sandbox" is an opinion. I asked you to justify it (by providing a list of necessary and sufficient criteria to categorize something as a sandbox), which you have not.
To put it another way, if you get a screwdriver and remove the pedals from your bicycle, does it *cease to be* a bicycle?
In other words (okay, this time I'll make it explicit), if WoW doesn't have X, Y, and Z, does it make it not a "sandbox". Are X, Y, and Z *necessary and sufficient* features for categorizing a mmorpg as a sandbox? I'll agree that WoW doesn't have X, Y, and Z, and that X, Y, and Z are "sandboxy" elements I might think of when someone says sandbox. But maybe there are apples without seeds, too. Ones that you can order in a restaurant we call "life".
Way easier now:
1. Strict class system -> not sandbox
2. You can choose to ignore all the NPC with the ! and ? over their heads, true, but you're expected not to. At least, the game is designed around the idea that almost all players will follow the directions given to them -> not sandbox
3. Best gear is usually mob loot -> not sandbox
4. The world doesn't dynamically change with players actions, with unexpected results. As in...all servers are pretty much the same when it comes to available content or general conditions -> not sandbox
5. No way to have a character sitting at combat level 1 and be an awesome, high level gear crafter -> not sandbox
There could be more, and way better explained, but that's all i can come with right now, and easily proves why WoW isn't sitting on the sandbox side.
I played 1 game where all 5 conditions were met, and another where, althought it wasn't strictly class based, it wasn't skill based either, and i'm sure many other posters have played other games that also pass this very small test.
No, you don't agree with what people said. Your posts show a lack of understanding in what people are trying to show you.
Again, even though at the present WoW offers more choices and multiple method of play-style than before, it is STILL NOT A SAND BOX GAME NOR WILL IT EVER BE.
If you want to show how WoW to be a sandbox game, answer the questions I asked in my previous posts...
As for the other poster who listed what people mentioned as sandbox - some elements are counted as the core of sandbox, such as:
1.) Dynamic world - where what you, the player, do matter and affect the world. May it be through the combat system, crafting system, or political system.
2.) Freedom in character design - which means you can choose your own playstyle, and design your character as such. If you want, you can go from a combat character to non-combat character, or if you want, you can be just a crafter and have other supply you with materials and in return, you give them items which help on their own game play.
3.) Community-based game play - where most, if not all, systems focus on the ability of players coming together to build the game world, and these systems give players the abilities to creates an evolving world rather than just a game.
Others elements are associated with these core element and their designs are derived from the core. These are:
1.) seemless world with limited or no instance (dynamic world)
2.) full loot, open world pvp (dynamic world)
3.) player-based economic where most items are made by players, not by NPC drop loot. (dynamic world)
4.) skill-based rather than class/level based (freedom in character design)
5.) removing character level as power indicator (freedom in character design/community-based game play).
Of course, some elements are debatable, but the core remains the same. Hence the definition of "sandbox" never changes.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Some of you do not understand the world of MMO's that is for sure.
If the game has classes, it is NOT a sandbox. A sandbox means you can define your character as you like which is impossible when classes are present.
Doom3 is not even a MMO, it is a FPS, if you can't understand the difference what are you doing on this site?
Um, having classes does not by any means restrict the world from being a sandbox. Granted, most MMO's that try the sandbox way are classless, skill-based systems, but freedom to define your character without restrictions is only a part of being a true sandbox MMO.
IMO 'sandbox'-style refers to a persistant world where you can interact with most things in a logical manner, and you are not forced to particular paths for your advancement. A game where I can, if I like, stop adventuring and doing quests and instead just, say, craft items and trade them and still play a meaningful game, is very far towards the sandbox end of the scale.
Also, the freedom to choose your path and goals sets sandboxes apart from 'linear' MMO's. My goal may not be to advance to 'end-game' content and to raid and PVP, and if the game doesn't push me towards that path, then IMO it's well on its way to being a sandbox.
the closest thing to a sandbox game right now is vanguard.. and it is excellent
other than that, whenever someone trys to make a sandbox game a million players scream vaporwear... i believe eventually some will be coming out tho... and am going to play vanguard until then
Remember Old School Ultima Online
The WoW hate is strong in this thread......
But really, if your spiteful hatred didn't blind you so much, you might realize that WoW is infact one of the more "sandbox'd" mmorpgs around.
What i hear often is that WoW's crafting system fails - Wrong ever since TBC it's been quite strong, with a lot of items being either on par or even better than certain raid items. (dragon strike being the best one hander for fury/ench/rogue until the Azzinoth demon hunter blades came around), the 2h mace being the best pvp weapon for a long time, but due to popular looks the 2h axe and sword found it's way to many people as well.
Alchemists: Oh boy, in the start, the first months of TBC it was all about discovring the newst flasks and they did it quite nicely as well.
Leather working: Being one myself, i found many reasons to keep it even after i had finally found upgrades to my CRAFTED gear, through raiding. But thanks to it having a nice number of other feats other than just making armor pieces i just had to keep it.
Enchanting: really it's one of those; "must have an enchanter friend", do i need to add more?
jewelcrafting: Well you need them, like you need the sun for a day......
Tailoring: I've seen people run around in the crafting cloth sets for so many months, i thought it was absurd but then again those pieces were godly.
Well the gathering professions are as always in heavy demand, and as a miner i saw myself taking a stroll "around the globe" quite often.
I don't know what really to tell those people, who say crafting is useless and inferior to raiding gear, other than the fact it's bull beyond belief. And certainly you never go from crap random greens to BT/Sunwell raiding gear out of the blue moon, unless you were extremely lucky to be the gear leecher.
Crafting does it's purpose perfectly, shows the determination of the players who wants to be well equipped, before they venture into the high raiding.
For PvP, there's plentiful of options, to spent your day with, however people only think on the best way to get to it of course that's why, we often only hear about the Battlegrounds/Arena, when there are a lot more options than that.
I was never a "daily quest guy" but there exist a lot of those and they have their own merits with reputation rewards through weird, funny, and cool mounts, most of the items of course aren't that great if you were decked out in BT+ gear but saying there was nothing there, is wrong.
The social hub, yes that's what WoW has become, where people talk about how their day went, they colored their hair, guild/realm drama (there's always plenty of that). WoW can easily become a grand soap drama and better than those you might see on TV, not to mention people seem to like making sure there's drama around. This kind i've rarely seen in other mmorpgs, at least not as entertaining and massive as WoW can do it., why? Because in WoW your own realm can seem like the popular one, even though for all the other people, on their own realm, theirs will seem like "IT!". Other mmorpgs will have the simple one, where a selective few guilds (all servers combined) will create the drama.
Exploring strange places or weird bugs for the surroundings. There are few mmorpgs that makes you look at certain things longer than the, "moment of passing by". Well for WoW there's often been the times where you gather around a weird place and try explorer it, since you never got around to it or actually tried venture into it before.
Back in the day of "new epic plans", i remember when fighting for nodes and building teams just to be sure that the other faction didn't have their way with the region's veins. Yes it's the age of Arcanite Reaper, when it was about "one leet guy taking his time to get the arcanite reaper plans" and the others "hording the insane amount of materials", well spent of course, since that axe's days of being on the throne was long indeed, did i mention it was crafted? Later on it was Sulfuras, hand of Ragnarus, which also had it's time on the throne for quite some time, not as long as you might hope for a legendary 2h'er which could take painfully long to create. I don't think i'll need to mention Thunderfury, since it's time of use may be the longest of all, oh and both that and Sulfarus was crafted as well. Thunderfury being it through a questline, with a lovely final battle, which in the early days, was like a server event, since the giant boss that spawned was a sight to behold back then. Sulfarus being all about combining The Eye of Sulfarus, with the insane material-heavy hammer.
Argh.... Now i turned my post into a rant but really for a final note :
If you want to make a remark about how WoW is "the furthest away from being a Sand box", then come here with 1st hand information, and not 3rd hand. The people i see bashing WoW are either some, who never played it, or haven't played it since Jesus walked the earth.
And i'm not even playing WoW myself any more, feb 2008, so my own information is turning into 2nd hand (oh the irony), but gosh.... It's been more of a Sandbox mmorpg with a lot of options, than most mmorpgs. But as stated before, Sand box mmos are dying because of the indirect demand to make so many limitation, which kills the whole "freedom/sand box", in certain mmorpgs.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
I got tired of reading these posts. Zorndorf, or whatever his name is, proved why sandboxes don't exist while trying to show how WOW is a sandbox. What Blizzard achieved was a level of addiction so overwhelmingly insidious and controlling that even the fanboy players don't notice it, but all other development teams and publishing houses covet and idolize it. By letting people get near the top of the mountain, but never see the other side (ie reach 60, get most of your raid gear, then expansion; reach 70, get most of your raid gear, wait here comes the next expansion; rinse, repeat), they insure that by praying on a player's need to be the best, that the ones who are close will never quit, and the ones on bottom always look up. The root of the problem is gear that is so uber, so hard to get, that most players can't function without it when matched against an opponent with even skill, much less superior skill. So, to protect the gear, the game cannot allow players to lose it. Thus, it is a race to look just like everyone else, with the same armor and weapon capabilities, and nothing unique. Hell, they don't even have dyes to change the color.
There are many reasons why WOW is a fun passtime, and there are many reasons why it is a bad game and why there are, or were many better games. However, the corporate side has a hard time ignoring the money, and the trammies have a hard time stepping out of their safety nets.
To answer the original poster: what happened to sandbox MMO's was that people who make up the majority of WOW subscribers bitched and moaned every time a PK made them pee their pants and took the shiney new sword they had just used mommy's credit card and paypal to buy from someone who got the sword by either surviving a free-for-all dungeon or killing someone else who tried to. Eventually the cacaphony of whiney voices reached a fever pitch causing the development team to cave in to the pressure to either eliminate game features that the carebears abhorred, or provide an alternate world for them where they would never have to face any danger whatsoever.
In short, I give you Trammel. And with one last fizzle the sandbox was no more.
Trammies need to stop polluting the MMORPG landscape. They already have enough games in which to emote hugs and sell garbage by the banks.
I would accept FFA PvP in a game if there were some things done to keep it in check.
First if you go around killing people randomly or stealing from them then you get a bounty placed on your head and can't go to normal towns. Most guards in town or in the outside world will kill you on site.
Second items in the game are not of monumental value and don't require lots of time to put together. Make it so that you can at least replace your old items with decent ones quickly even if they aren't as good as what you had before.
It would be great to see some kind of jail for being a criminal. I'm not sure how this would work as the PKs would not like to spend their time in jail for a half hour. It would end up with them quiting the game.
Still it would be neat to see some type of implementation of this.
The last thing that would be needed is a bounty hunter system. Criminals have a bounty placed on their heads in towns depending on how many times they have stolen or randomly killed people. People can then kill them and collect money in town for it.
OP / go-obama you should try out EVE for a bit perhaps. Other day was in my recon ship trying to relay recon information to my Alliance. Some reds jumped into our system and starting owning. After the fight was over I uncloak and loot everyone whether friend or foe :P
But I havent had a rich haul like it sounds like you have in Runescape. Thank you for that story that would be great to get rich like that in EVE. unfortunately most of the time the ships goes kaboom so all you can hope for is rigs and good loot. You know the drill
"Because the definition of apples isn't universal accepted."
Priceless.
I can't believe how many relativists crept out from under their rocks to defend that philosophical turd. Guess what. 2 + 2 = 4, not 3, not 5. Objectivity has spoken, there will be no debate. Thank you.
Trammies need to stop polluting the MMORPG landscape. They already have enough games in which to emote hugs and sell garbage by the banks.
WoW is as far from a Sandbox as you can get. AoC is right behind it. If you had played the original UO or Pre-CU SWG, you would know the difference is tremendous.
WoW is a game for kids.
WoW is more of a sandbox then AoC though. At least you can go do things like fish if you choose to do so. There is more exploration such as underwater exploration. Still it's not really a sandbox.
Without reading all of the bantering back and forth, sorry all, I will answer the question posed by the title of the thread. What happened to Sandbox MMOs? Same thing that happens with so many Sandboxes in the world. Some unknown stray mutts come along and defecate in the sandbox until all the kiddies decide it is not much of a sandbox, and more of a shitbox, and thusly no longer worth playing in. Even if a new sandbox is built, learning from the past, there is an innate fear or worry that it too will in short time be made into nothing beyond a neighborhood crapper also