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The problem with this game through the eyes of a pvper!
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You dont need uber skills to pvp.
xbps.org/kb/
I have to disagree. Why? First of all you don't go solo PvPing in this game, even if you do, you can get pwned by newbie characters even if you have over 2 year of playtime, cause skills aren't the most important thing in EVE and PvP.
When you see a fleet of frigates taking down a battleship, you'll know what I'm talking about.
You're not afraid of the dark, are you?
His point isn't that noob players don't know the mechanics of the game, and thus lose in PvP to the veterans. His point is that skills in EVE train in real time, so in order to have a crapload of skills which facilitate PvP excellence you have to spend incredible amounts of real time letting them build up. This immediately excludes new players from installing the game and joining the PvP action in a meaningful and useful way. (unless of course they PvP against other noobs)
In other MMOs players merely have to level their characters and grind some gear to get there, a process which as we all know can take mere days.
His point isn't that noob players don't know the mechanics of the game, and thus lose in PvP to the veterans. His point is that skills in EVE train in real time, so in order to have a crapload of skills which facilitate PvP excellence you have to spend incredible amounts of real time letting them build up. This immediately excludes new players from installing the game and joining the PvP action in a meaningful and useful way. (unless of course they PvP against other noobs)
In other MMOs players merely have to level their characters and grind some gear to get there, a process which as we all know can take mere days.
Actually the point he was making was that you can NEVER compete which is untrue as you can compete either as part of an ambushing squad or by spending time learning the skills needed to fight a experienced PvP person on a more or less level playing field.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
OP: one word. teamwork. everything you said is appropriate for solo pvping, but if you gathered 5-10 others, i don't care if they've been playing for 10 years and have 90 million points, you'll probably win that fight.
not even that. a 90 million sp player may not be pvp trained, or may be caught unaware on a weak ship or with a npc fitting. on those cases, even a single noob can win a 1vs1 fight.
wow
Ok can we stop feeding the troll now? Please?
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
yeah i agree i pvp myself bye poding my own ship with c4 there done end of troll
.....
... so in wow, my level 1 guy cant kill a level 70 guy with the best armour and weapons in the game?
that game sucks.
you actually can in eve, lets say that your player b is flying a vagabond (as everyone does these days) and your player a is flying a neuting, cap injected heavy missile blackbird with a web and point. (its a lolfit, but lets just think about it)... who would win?
im not sure, it comes down to player skill. now if player a had a mate in a thorax... its all going the newbies way.
Your point is a bit off because in Eve, your skills increase with time. They never stop. In WoW, you may not be equal to a level 70, but he cant level beyond that. So with time, you will catch up with him. In Eve the difference will be less and less with time. But if I do join 1 year after you did, I will always be 1 year behind (in skill points), unless you stop paying for the game of course. I may be able to compete, but I will never be equal to that person ahead of me.
To other people who are afraid of noobs flying frigs. Guys, a noob of 2 month will NOT know even 1/10th of what you know. His frig may be deadly vs your ship, but he wouldn't know how to do it. I played Eve (in total) about 3-4 months, and I still haven't figured out how to work with web. I didnt have a corp, I didnt have a friend with 5 years of experience to hold my hand and explain all the tricks. I spent most of my time experimenting on rats. In 2 months, a noob will not figure out how to kill off a veteran. I never tried to engage anyone in PvP because:
a) I didnt know how to PvP well enough to risk loss of my ship;
b) I didnt have a corp behind me, I couldnt risk becoming a fugitive with a bounty on my head and half the galaxy hunting me down;
c) I dont know all the ships, all the items, what ship counters what, what item counters what. I wasn confident that I could kill my enemy, or at least get away with my ship intact if I fail. I could not risk my ship because one mistake will force me to spend days or even weeks recovering financially.
The only low level SP person who stands a chance to win against a high level SPer is
a) a veteran who created a new character, or
b) a new player who had extensive training from experienced players and financial support to recover his loss
So no, a real noob will stand no chance against a veteran. The learning curve is just way too steep for it to be true.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Keep telling yourself that Jimmy. I'll keep enjoying the game with my 2 characters newbie on 2 accounts.
IMO, finding a place to thrive in EVE is much more about knowing what you want and going for it than it is about having as much SP as the next player.
I've found many places to apply the limited SP I possess that are fun for me. As I gain more SP the number of things I can do adequately increase, adding to the fun of the game.
I feel that many people look at the ships in EVE in a way that is detrimental. Many see their ships as possessions that no one has a right to take from them. I see them as tools to accomplish goals. As long as the tools last longer than it takes to recoup the investment I made in them then I am always gaining in wealth, which means I am gaining in power.
If I am losing ships to the point where I am losing money, then I need to figure out how to do things diffently and revers the trend.
it's not just in eve that people say gbtw.
and it's been coined for excellent reasons.
so um, gbtw.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
... so in wow, my level 1 guy cant kill a level 70 guy with the best armour and weapons in the game?
that game sucks.
you actually can in eve, lets say that your player b is flying a vagabond (as everyone does these days) and your player a is flying a neuting, cap injected heavy missile blackbird with a web and point. (its a lolfit, but lets just think about it)... who would win?
im not sure, it comes down to player skill. now if player a had a mate in a thorax... its all going the newbies way.
that really isn't a good comparison. lvl 1 vs lvl 70 does not mean what you think it means. not in any world.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
maybe, if they're flying a frigate.
now, if we're talking about heat, which we should be, for all the bonuses, you have the below three skills, no matter what you're flying.
1 thermodynamics (512,000 sp required just to obtain) - prereq - science lvl 5 - 256k sp, energy management lvl 5 (which requires engineering lvl 5 - 256k sp)
2 nanite operation (256,000 sp prereq) - mechanic lvl 5 - 256k sp
3 nanite interfacing (+24k sp) - mechanic lvl 5 + nanite operation lvl 3 - 24k sp
now, are you flying something with rig slots? are we talking t1 rigs or t2 rigs? t2 rigs require lvl 4 of the appropriate rigging skill in order to use. those are rank 3 skills, so you're looking at about 135k sp for each rigging skill you'll need for the t2 rigs you want.
defenses? each armor and shield compensation is 90k - lvl 4, or 512k lvl 5, 4 types - EM, explosive, kinetic, thermic. plus things like hull upgrades, shield operation, shield management. we're looking at a couple of million just for shield tanking or armor tanking.
there's a lot of engineering/electronics skills that can give you an advantage no matter what ship you're flying. add up to a few million here no matter your ship.
navigation? there's easily a few million SP here that will be used no matter what ship you're flying, even moreso if you've got an mwd or ab.
say you're in something that only uses small turrets, sure, that's only 256k to get a rank 1 gun skill to level 5, which then unlocks a couple of specialties (rank 3s, which will max at 768k sp); but, you also have weapon upgrades, advanced weapon upgrades, controlled bursts, gunnery, motion prediction, rapid firing, sharp shooter, surgical strike, trajectory analysis -- 9 gunnery support skills. now, if i have all of those to level 5, and someone else has them at level 0 thru 3... at any rate, if i'm in a frig shooting guns, i'm using all of those skills JUST shooting my pew pew. the support skills go up to rank 6.
that's using just guns as an example, similar examples can be made for both missiles and drones. if you're flying a frig that uses a combination of attacks, you're using all the support skills associated with said attacks, along with the one or two skills which affect only the weapon you're currently using.
so, if you just died and docked and you're in a rookie ship, i can see how you may only be using several million sp in it; but, even in a frig, you're using a lot more SP (if you have them)... this isn't including *advanced* skills like cloaking.
that's a lot of SP, usable in any ship in which you fly.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
FINALLY, someone who tells the truth.
good way to think about the game.
eve can be a total solo or a total team sport. it really depends on if you want to conquer the world, or just have fun on your own terms.
you can be COMPETITIVE, but you can never catch up to older players. there's just too many new skills and too many skills that can be used on most any ship. eventually, you would be able to have the same skills; but there's always another skill... for example, in my previous post, i didn't mention cybernetics. you need level 5 there to get the most out of training and buffs. learning skills are 5.376 MILLION to max out.
lots of people skimp on charisma in training. that's fine, if you aren't planning on taking leaderships to a high level...
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
People that say that you cannot catch up to another player with more SP are people who have not played eve,they look as statistics like they would look at armor in WoW,zomg he has tier 6 and I have some crappy blues,I wont beat him.
Well the thing in eve is that time actualy spent hunting/pvping (gaining combat experience,like in RL,knowing what ships and what setups are best) beats the time youve spent training for skills.
Exemple mr. SPrulz,has not being playing much,but he wants to fly a vagabond,he never flew a stabber ,he then finaly manages to train for one,gets into one ... and what do you know,he puts a crap fit on it and goes into low sec,incidently mr. Ihavebeingpvpingforawhile is in the same system as SPrulz flying a drake ,SPrulz not knowing that passive drake will never flinch against burst DPS rushes in at 10km (getting into web range),dies and then goes to the forum and whines how the guy with 4mil SP beat him ,when he invested 12mil SP.
it is important to listen to what jimmy says. he played eve for 3 months and didnt pvp. so we should take his opinion as gospel truth.
you're correct, an inexperienced pvper WILL lose to an experienced pvper. don't think there's a big surprise there.
that does not in any fashion mean that someone who is a pvper and has 15m SP in use, no matter WHAT ship they fly (the ones i listed in the above two posts - combat oriented along with cybernetics), will lose to someone who is a new pvper and just has a couple of million sp.
now, in a swarm vs one, odds are the one will lose, period. but we're not talking about that in this thread.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Just read the initial post. What a load of... PVP in EVE is not for solo mongrels any more. Solo flyers die to 3 random ships most of the time anyway (yeah, yeah there are ubers that can solo 3 shuttles every now and then, I know). If you want to expirience EVE you need to join a corp and then get your avatar into 0.0 space and join fleets. Like in rl armies, all ships in a fleet serve a purpose and should have a defined role (if they don't then they are in the wrong place). And yo ucan fill one of those roles in just a month. Train EW (blackbird) or train logistic t1 cruiser (osprey, exqueror) and be usefull. Yes you will not be able to solo 20 battleships but you will help your fleet to win 50vs50 fight if you do your thing right.
EVE has a steep learning curve but once you got it it's yours to stay forever. And if your ego suffers from lack of skillpoints on your char you can always make isk and buy one of the chars someone trained for 2 years. EVE economy offers unlimited profitable opportunities. You can make billions in few months and save 2 years of training.
So don't spread lies about EVE. It's not for everyone. If you prefer hack and slash or some endless grind wow type games then you will hate EVE.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
maybe, if they're flying a frigate.
now, if we're talking about heat, which we should be, for all the bonuses, you have the below three skills, no matter what you're flying.
1 thermodynamics (512,000 sp required just to obtain) - prereq - science lvl 5 - 256k sp, energy management lvl 5 (which requires engineering lvl 5 - 256k sp)
2 nanite operation (256,000 sp prereq) - mechanic lvl 5 - 256k sp
3 nanite interfacing (+24k sp) - mechanic lvl 5 + nanite operation lvl 3 - 24k sp
now, are you flying something with rig slots? are we talking t1 rigs or t2 rigs? t2 rigs require lvl 4 of the appropriate rigging skill in order to use. those are rank 3 skills, so you're looking at about 135k sp for each rigging skill you'll need for the t2 rigs you want.
defenses? each armor and shield compensation is 90k - lvl 4, or 512k lvl 5, 4 types - EM, explosive, kinetic, thermic. plus things like hull upgrades, shield operation, shield management. we're looking at a couple of million just for shield tanking or armor tanking.
there's a lot of engineering/electronics skills that can give you an advantage no matter what ship you're flying. add up to a few million here no matter your ship.
navigation? there's easily a few million SP here that will be used no matter what ship you're flying, even moreso if you've got an mwd or ab.
say you're in something that only uses small turrets, sure, that's only 256k to get a rank 1 gun skill to level 5, which then unlocks a couple of specialties (rank 3s, which will max at 768k sp); but, you also have weapon upgrades, advanced weapon upgrades, controlled bursts, gunnery, motion prediction, rapid firing, sharp shooter, surgical strike, trajectory analysis -- 9 gunnery support skills. now, if i have all of those to level 5, and someone else has them at level 0 thru 3... at any rate, if i'm in a frig shooting guns, i'm using all of those skills JUST shooting my pew pew. the support skills go up to rank 6.
that's using just guns as an example, similar examples can be made for both missiles and drones. if you're flying a frig that uses a combination of attacks, you're using all the support skills associated with said attacks, along with the one or two skills which affect only the weapon you're currently using.
so, if you just died and docked and you're in a rookie ship, i can see how you may only be using several million sp in it; but, even in a frig, you're using a lot more SP (if you have them)... this isn't including *advanced* skills like cloaking.
that's a lot of SP, usable in any ship in which you fly.
i have 60 million sp, and i havent completed any of the "general" skill trees you are talking about. there are 400 million total sp, and out of those 400 million, probably 150 or 200 are placed on secondary skills that are useful on any ship (drones, engineering, electronics, mechanics, navigation, leadership, gunnery, missiles).
so, if anybody had those skills to level 5, they would have a great advantadge over any new player, even with a similar spaceship command level trained. but, as you should know, nobody has all those secondary skills trained to level 5. some people get on without drones, others wihtout electronic warfare, others without shields or armor skills, many more do not even train mechanic skills, or havent maxed navigation. in the end, most players fit most of their sp on spaceship command and their weapon of choice. that is why a new player will be able to compete, cause nobody has completed engineering+electronics+drones+navigation+mechanics+leadership
You keep misreading my point - Its not about who has more SPs and who has less - its about how a NOOB can utilize those SPs.
If you put everything in one sentence, the main discussion point of this thread was "Any noob with small number of SPs is competitive with any other veteran who has ten's of millions of SP's". Am I right?
If so, that means I didnt misunderstood everybody else's posts. But I do not agree entirely with that statement. A "true" noob will not be able to utilize those SPs to be competitive. I believe the right phrase would be "Any veteran would be competitive with any other veteran who has ten's of millions of SP's"
The learning curve to learn all those skills necessary to be competitive is just too great. The number of skills themselves is too great (its not a bad thing, its a good thing - the more skills - the better, but also harder for the starting noob). When I started playing Eve, I had no clue which skill to start researching to be competitive: would it be missiles? or energy? or navigation for quick gettaway? I didn't know, and i still don't - nobody ever explained it to me. All you do is say you can kill a battleship with a bunch of frigs, well, I don't know how, and I bet any noob won't untill someone tells him the right configuration OR he spends months of researching skills until he finally finally gets the right configuration to take down a battleship.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Thats my point exactly. I am a prime example of a noob in Eve. 3 months and im not much beter (PvP vise) then when I started. Thanks for proving my point.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
On a side note: I believe what Eve could do to reduce this learning curve is to have a "virtual reality" type of zone, where players would have access to all skills/items/ships and could try out different combinations of ships/weapons/skills on NPCs. Something like what Planetside has - a way to show and teach noobs of various aspects of Eve.
This way I could map my skill progression and actually could become competitive in Eve in a short time without risking my ship or my skills.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Wanting to do almost anything at one time or another is one of the problems I faced early in my EVE career. I generalized my skills over a wide range and, like you, never improved much at anything, or at least, improved very slowly.
But I was the problem, not the game. I realized that if I wanted to compete with others I would have to specialize. So, I decided on a frigate I wanted to fly well and looked at all of the skills I would need to reach the goal of "veteran frig pilot". I got myself EveMon so I could plan out all of the skills I wanted and then set the plan in motion and started training only what would help me with my goal of piloting my chosen frigate.
After completing this program I had most of the skills that good frig pilots have, I also had a nestegg large enough that losing a frigate (after insurance payout) was only about 4% of my total ISK. So, I could buy and lose 25 frigates without ever making another dime's worth of ISK before I went broke.
Then I went out and started learning the ropes of PvP in EVE. And wile I was doing that I was training my cruiser and drone skills so I could get a cruiser. I now fly Arbitrators almost exclusively and I'm having a blast!
And, whenI feel like it I train other skills so I can do those other things that I like as well.
My advice to new pilots, SPECIALIZE! The sooner you do, the sooner you can find a niche where you will be able to thrive.
OK, it sound like you need some guidence for sure. A lot of this usually comes from a corporation for example, the rest is experience.
There is the test server btw, i have never actually used it but a lot of the people i know have refined some PvP techniques there. For example before the alliance tournament, and then there was organising some tem work to try and take down a MOM when they were only just showing up.
The best thing to do is to pick a tier 3 frigate with at least 3 mid slots (rifter is great). the 3 mid slots are MWD, web and scram. The highs do damage, whatever can fit, the lows are fitting mods or buffer tank (plate and damage control) or agility/speed mods, overdrives and nanofibers. then join in faction warfare. Start joining in on gangs, go kill stuff and get blown up lots.
learn about cap managment, transversal, scouting, when to run, how to hide. Optimise and refine your skills in the frig.
the tactics you learn will help when you get in something bigger, and there are frigs trying to pull you down, you will know what works against them from your own hard lessons.
Then decide about a ditection to go in. You need not worry about learning the 'wrong' skill, at the worst you will never use it, at best it will be support at some point.
to chew up your time get all the following to V, engnering, electronics, mechanic, navigation, Wepon upgrades (as much adv WU as you can), drones, eveasive manuvering and spachip command. You will be more agile and be able to fit better gear (better being T2 which better because it is good and much cheaper than faction gear)..