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[POLL] Mark Jacobs puts the smackdown on an impatiet WHA admin
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Member UncommonPosts: 1,073
This Browncoat dude on Warhammer Alliance started a thread basically attacking Mythic's marketing style:
"Ever been to a magic show? Not one of those really crappy shows where the magician's spilling out crap from under their hat and you think they might saw their assistant in half for real, but a real magic show? In those, there's a real sense of excitement and interest. What is the magician going to do next? Are they going to defy physics by floating in the air? Are they going to make something disappear into their sleeve only for it to emerge from their mouth seconds later?
Part of the intent of the magic show is to create this kind of awe and amazement. But a lot of people forget, in the midst of the amazing feats a magician puts in front of you, that part of the intent is to manipulate, move someone's awareness somewhere while something else subtle is happening (or not happening). Sleight-of-hand is one of the magician's core lessons, and the best do it with such subtlety that you never see it.
EA Mythic's put on quite the magic show when it comes to their information flow. I gotta admit, the tricks they use, centered around such core items as monthly podcasts, frequent Q&A's, community posting, and the use of a certain excitable man from England really wow the people here."
NOTE: I linked the rest of the above post below MJ's response
Mark Jacobs responded with:
"Folks,
Hmmm, not sure how to respond to this piece. It is wrong on so many levels it's kind of hard to know where to begin. A number of years ago I probably would have responded with a frothing-at-the-mouth kind of reply but I'll keep it nice and civil in deference to WHA's contributions to the growth of WAR over the last few years and the fact that I know that Browncoat is a fan of the game and not someone looking to take potshots at us for fun and frolic.
First, and I've said this before, do not blame "The Evil Marketing Guys" ever for any perceived issues with the flow of information. Those decisions start and end with me. I'm happy, thrilled and overjoyed to freely admit (as I have before) that we haven't revealed all aspects of our game yet and we don't intend to do so immediately. We have a long summer coming up and we will be releasing a lot more information over the next 2 months. Between E3, Leipzig, etc. we have a lot of ground to cover and we need things to talk about in these various places. if we released all the information now not only would we have nothing new to talk about there ('natch) but then we would hear complaints along the lines of "I came all the way to XXX and there was nothing new there to see!!!" or "Thanks Mythic for wasting my time, I'm not buying your game now!" and journalists would also have nothing new to report over the next few months. That would be a terrible marketing decision. By the end of the month there will be a whole lot more to talk about and by the end of August, even more. Besides, since I'm currently working on the latest "State of the Game" message I kinda know this to be true.
Second, I really resent the usage of the word "tricks" in a manner to suggest that we are, gee, trying to trick someone. If we wanted to trick players, that would be easy, we would talk about all the things that the players can look forward to being in the game at launch, pretend that they will be in at launch, promise them the earth, moon and sky and get them all excited even though we know that they won't be in at launch. That's been done too many times in MMO history and we aren't going to do that. That's a real trick and we don't play those kind of games, period. We have done a lot of things to help promote WAR over the last 3 years and these things have helped take WAR from a game that few people really cared about (or thought would be successful) to one of the most anticipated MMOs of all time. Whether it is our closed-beta test signups, our pre-sales of the Collector's Edition (should be sold out soon), Internet traffic, etc., WAR has more buzz than just about any other MMO to date. However, we have never resorted to trickery to get this buzz. My teams have worked their tails off helping to promote the game and I'm mighty proud to say that we've always done it honestly, without tricks or deception.
Third, the fact that we have "skeptics" as we get closer to launch. OMG, who would have thought that would happen? Well actually, me three years ago on this site and on other places. It's been going exactly the way I expected it would based on our experience with DAoC's launch as well as the launch of other games. As we get closer to launch and while the NDA is still in place, we get both people who are nervous as well as people who want to grief us on these forums. Nothing new here, please move on.
Fourth, at the end of the article Browncoat makes it seem like we don't either understand our hardcore fans, don't care about them and that somehow we don't have a plan going forward. Let me tell you something, we have a plan and we are following it to the letter. Now, maybe some still think even after reading my post that it's the wrong plan, that we should immediately open the floodgates today. Well, you would be wrong. We still have a number of months to go and we will continue to release information throughout the remainder of the development cycle. Oh, and if we were being so nefarious, clever or even sneaky we wouldn't be opening up guild beta would we? After all if you are worried about the hardcore fans, well, a whole heck of a lot of them are going to be playing WAR very shortly. Talk about dissemination of information to the hardcore fans! In the next few weeks more people will have access to WAR than have had access to WAR to date. If there really was something to worry about, we would have delayed Guild Beta (again). Inviting some of your key hard-core fans to play your game is not a good idea unless you think that they will actually enjoy it right?
Fifth, things change all the time in beta. We're not afraid to put systems/ideas in to see how they work and we are equally not afraid to pull them if they are not working. We will continue to do this throughout beta and if it means that we cannot talk about something now, so be it. As I've also said before, I'd rather have people disappointed with us now (or soon) rather than at launch. Talking about things that aren't 100% fully cooked is almost never a good idea especially when we are this close to launch.
Finally, Browncoat admits that we have put forth an impressive array of information. As he says, we really have done a fine job of disseminating a ton of information to date. Well, if we've done that already why would we resort to tricks or that kind of nonsense? Would anybody reasonably think that somehow things have miraculously taken a nose-dive here and somehow "Evil Marketing" or worse, EA corporate has somehow messed with us. In life, the simplest answer is usually true and in our case, the simplest answer is that much more is coming and nobody is messing with us.
In the end, just as I've said before, we will release information about the game on our schedule and nobody else's schedule. Also as I've said countless times before, I have no doubt that we are going to piss some people by some of the decisions we made/make/will make but that's the price of doing business. However, I can't help but think that based on every metric we can track that interest in WAR continues to grow. Frankly, if it wasn't, I would have instructed marketing to open the floodgates ahead of schedule to help stem the tide. Fortunately, that is not necessary.
By the time the Summer ends one of two things should happen. First, either I will be made out to be a liar and very little information will be disseminated or everything will happen just as I've said. In the first case, I'll be here to say that I fibbed or I hope that in the second case, I hope that Browncoat will write a nice apology piece. We'll just have to sit back a bit and see what happens..."
Here's the full posts:
Comments
Giv'em hell Mark and stick to your guns! Too many MMO companies these days cave to community pressure and end up with a shitty game. This response only proves once more why Mark Jacobs and Mythic are some of the best in the business.
We still have plenty of time and if they stop releasing new things or answering questions then how are we gonna survive the wait until launch? I think Browncoat's just getting a little worried, and he has the right to be, but Mythic's plan is just fine.
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
Very good read and I like what I am hearing. I think EA/Mythic know what they have in front of them and with the disappointments that have come lately they are going to capitalise on it. I look forward to this game more so then any other game I have ever looked at but at the same time I keep my expectations low. I like what I see from the Dev team and what I see from the game, I am hoping this will be my next long haul game wise, I need a home!
Out of every 100 men, 10 should not be there,
80 are nothing but targets, 9 are the real fighters.
Ah, but one, ONE of them is a warrior,
and he will bring the others home.
-Heraclitus 500BC
I think the anticipation and all the nagative chatter that is vomitting forth from the internet just got to Browncoat. Lets just hope he changes his tune once more information is out. Simple case of being unable to see the forest because all the trees are in the way.
Great reply by Jeff.
Hmmm...Browncoat's impatience really shines in the post. I think he needs to calm himself down a bit. The information will come when it comes. The dry-spell we've been having no doubt comes with the different beta's and their uncertainty with some of the mechanics of the game. Once the finish rooting out the bugs and testing some untested stuff (Guilds) I'm sure we will have more information by the barrel load. Let's not forget that we sit at one end of the table and Mythic sits at the other. In some cases we don't see what they see. Let them do what they need to do. Browncoat is really acting childish.
Kid- "I WANT MUH LOLIPOP! I WANT IT NOW! GIMME GIMME!"
Mom- "Not just yet honey, I have some work that I need to do. Dusting, cleaning up. We are having guests over and this place needs to look decent"
Kid- "BUT I WANT IT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!"
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
While I enjoy their site because it is very active I am not really a fan of posting there other than the tech and gamer culture forums because of Mods like Browncoat. And no, I have never received an infraction on any WAR related site at all, I just don't like the way his tone is or their unprofessionalism sometimes.
RJO dropped the ball on this one. I would have expected him to post this.
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
I am of the opinion that Browncoat just wrote up his little thing to drum up interest in his site, increase traffic, and as he himself admits a few posts from Jacobs' that, and I quote, "I knew when we started putting out these pieces that sooner or later, we would elicit a response. It won't be the first time, nor the last, as these are opinion pieces and sometimes an opinion isn't always positive."
To hell with Warhammer Alliance, and to hell with Browncoat. I mean wtf? Sounds to me that someone is pissy because they created a fan site and didn't get into beta.
Personally, I like the way the information has been coming in from the devs over at EAMythic. Like Jacobs himself said "I'd rather have people disappointed with us now (or soon) rather than at launch. Talking about things that aren't 100% fully cooked is almost never a good idea especially when we are this close to launch." To me this is a helluva lot better than what an unnamed recently released mmo's producers did by promising the stars and the moon and giving the players a half finished rock.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
/edited for content
Don't wanna flame. I agree with Mark... and BC is a specific case. Not the most amiable mod in the world and his viewpoints are usually presented in a ... how shall we say... strongly... (ok I can't come up with a nice way to say "arrogant" I give up) manner...
Both are correct because this is a case of perspective.
On Browncoats side I can see how a person might feel that Mythics release of certain information and what they don't release might be a case for deceiving the people. If say you release Whitelion information then it draws attention from the lack of blackgaurd and KotBS info. Of if you spotlight the Guild system it might draw attention that your combat system or crafting system has issues. It is easy to read further into things and think they have a deeper meaning than they actually have.
As for Marks side this is just a pure case of Mythic being a business. You release what you can when you can according to the schedule. I know people are getting bummed that there is a slow down on information but if they dropped all the information months ago what would people be talking about? It would entirely be whining about the game not being out yet. So they have to limit the information to enough to keep interest but not to much that they don't have an ace in the hole to drum up the fanbase hype come release time.
Also if you think about it since the last delay they really had to see how the game was testing to modify their information schedule. If they were going to make a June Launch then they would have to let all the information out. But if things didn't go well and they did have problems they couldn't get the genie back in the lamp.
So now since the mud seems to be hardening and barring any big rainstorms we will get more information in general and once NDA drops people will know pretty much everything.
Quite simply, bein the major/Well known site that WHA is, Browncoat does not only himself, but the community as a whole a great disservice with his post. Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. His just makes himself look like lesser of a person, and diminishes the perspective outside sources will take on the game. Somehow, I think that was his intention. Perhaps he became disenchanted with the game when mommy did not give him the loli-pop the earlier poster mentioned.
I always said that browncoat was a tool and now he just goes on and proves it.
Warhammer Alliance was a good site once, but now it a shadow of it former self, thinking that because they are a fansite with a huge base they deserve everything directly from the devs mouths.
Heck some of the admin there tought WAR wouldnt be as great a succes if they didnt run the site.
"There no I in team but there a WE in weapon." -Thoragrin Oxenhide
Browncoat's perspective was flimsy at best. Not only was he unjustly insulting the integrity of Mythic, he was so obviously trying to incite a response from somebody at Mythic so that he can draw more attention to his WHA site. If anybody was being sleezy and "deceptive," it was Browncoat. My guess is that it was a combination of him just being an impatient prick and being jealous of the VN boards since Mark Jacobs seems to post there a lot.
I'm kind of tired of seeing the WAH admins/mod act like they know what it takes to build a game from the ground up. I would bet most, if not all of them, have no clue what it takes to build an average sized software application. They should really stick to what they know. Over Zealous Forum Moderation. That's what they seem to be good at.
my god that brownstain guys is a tool .
i don't know why Mark responds to this crap . Mythic is not hiding behind the NDA and once it gets lifted people like browncoat will look like fools .
side note:
elders ... check the beta forums
This reminds me of that guy long ago that complainend to blizzard in beta phase i think.
And some site wich i forgot made a comic out of him.
Been so long
LOL that guy Mark Jacobs really overreacted. Probably the admin stepped on a sore toe.
Angry MBJ has been in full effect the last few days and I'm ok with that - I love him in fighting form
People are just twitchy now after what Funcom did with AOC. So many promises fell short, they are now overly suspicious of all forms of hype, and lets face it, WAR has done a great job at building hype for their game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Wow, that was intense!
All I gotta say is, I'm surprised how things have changed since pre-WoW. It is so insanely difficult to release an MMO these days. I'm shocked people even still try (especially those MMOs that bring absolutely nothing new to the table).
But WAR brings plenty new to the table. I'm certainly not worried.
The 'community' cannot be pleased these days. And it's not entierly their fault. We've been let down time and time again. Companies HAVE used 'tricks' on us in the past.
But it would be foolish to assume that every company is as evil as the ones so far.
I will say that Games Work Shop are the masters of the bait and switch. Now I realise that Mythic is not GWS, but i'd wouldn't jump in with both feet.
Fricken sweet...now that's how you lay the smack down on nay-sayers!
All that was missing at the end of Mark Jacobs's post was:
PWNED!!!!!111
He really did lay the smack down, and I like seeing a developer, especially the lead developer and CEO/president/whatever he is these days mix it up. He was probably at home, bored, saw this tool's post, and figured he would lay some smack down.
That also goes to show that the developers do read forums, even the top dog.
Oh, and considernig EA Mythic is one of the most transparent MMORPG developers ever, and has released hundreds of interviews, many hours of game footage, screenshots, etc., I do not think it is fair to accuse them of marketing tricks and illusions and such.
Lol! I could have told you that AoC wouldn't live up to the hype before you bought into it. Funcom already had a bad track record with Anarchy Online, so anybody who actually bought into their hype without some skepticism was just setting themselves up for a big disappointment. I was on here predicting that AoC would be all eye candy no substance from day one.
At least Mythic already has a good track record with the launch of DaoC. People should at least afford Mythic the benefit of the doubt.
*reserved until WAR is live so we can discuss Mark Jacobs in another light*