WAR could stumble badly.

MrVicchio · August 2008

After reading all the "ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING" threads, I thought I would add my own. Just for fun mind. The topic is serious, I am being serious and I think it's a legitimate issue of discussion.

Classes. There are only 4. WAIT, before you go off listing me all the different classes, how unique they are and that they fullfill their roles diferently from their arch type base...

There are still, only four classes in WAR. Tank, Light DPS, Ranged and Healer.

This is how your modern, WOWified user base is going to see the game. They won't see any difference between a Magus and Bright Wizard. A Shaman and a Warrior Priest. In their minds, the simplified "roles" of the classes will be all that they see. I was talking with a very good friend , trying to get him all fired up about WAR since I am in the beta. I didn't break NDA or anything, I just tried to exude enthusiasm and point him at the WAR sites.

His comment "But these classes, just reskins with different animations of the same four classes!"

That told me how and where, when the unwashed masses hit the WAR front in a month or so, are going to think. His first and only MMO is WoW. I think Mythic and the WAR fans are oing to have to be patient with the masss as they realize that there is far more to WAR then just "class roles".

And that i think, will be WAR's biggest stumbling block assuming launch is smooth and the client is stable. (The two biggest problems with all MMO's at launch btw)

syxx · August 2008

Originally posted by MrVicchio

After reading all the "ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING" threads, I thought I would add my own.   Just for fun mind. The topic is serious, I am being serious and I think it's a legitimate issue of discussion.

Classes. There are only 4. WAIT, before you go off listing me all the different classes, how unique they are and that they fullfill their roles diferently from their arch type base...

There are still, only four classes in WAR. Tank, Light DPS, Ranged and Healer.

This is how your modern, WOWified user base is going to see the game. They won't see any difference between a Magus and Bright Wizard. A Shaman and a Warrior Priest.   In their minds, the simplified "roles" of the classes will be all that they see.   I was talking with a very good friend , trying to get him all fired up about WAR since I am in the beta. I didn't break NDA or anything, I just tried to exude enthusiasm and point him at the WAR sites.

His comment "But these classes, just reskins with different animations of the same four classes!"

That told me how and where, when the unwashed masses hit the WAR front in a month or so, are going to think. His first and only MMO is WoW.   I think Mythic and the WAR fans are oing to have to be patient with the masss as they realize that there is far more to WAR then just "class roles".

And that i think, will be WAR's biggest stumbling block assuming launch is smooth and the client is stable. (The two biggest problems with all MMO's at launch btw)

Sadly its not WoW anything since blizz stole just about everything anyways.

Cant tell the fanboys that though.

Ascension08 · August 2008

Just tell him tanks arent worthless plants in PvP like they are in WoW.

But yeah I see your concern. Each class plays differently but of course its archetype is the same. He will have to try all classes first to see that he's wrong, hopefully he has enough attention span .

MrVicchio · August 2008

Originally posted by syxx

Originally posted by MrVicchio

After reading all the "ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING" threads, I thought I would add my own.   Just for fun mind. The topic is serious, I am being serious and I think it's a legitimate issue of discussion.

Classes. There are only 4. WAIT, before you go off listing me all the different classes, how unique they are and that they fullfill their roles diferently from their arch type base...

There are still, only four classes in WAR. Tank, Light DPS, Ranged and Healer.

This is how your modern, WOWified user base is going to see the game. They won't see any difference between a Magus and Bright Wizard. A Shaman and a Warrior Priest.   In their minds, the simplified "roles" of the classes will be all that they see.   I was talking with a very good friend , trying to get him all fired up about WAR since I am in the beta. I didn't break NDA or anything, I just tried to exude enthusiasm and point him at the WAR sites.

His comment "But these classes, just reskins with different animations of the same four classes!"

That told me how and where, when the unwashed masses hit the WAR front in a month or so, are going to think. His first and only MMO is WoW.   I think Mythic and the WAR fans are oing to have to be patient with the masss as they realize that there is far more to WAR then just "class roles".

And that i think, will be WAR's biggest stumbling block assuming launch is smooth and the client is stable. (The two biggest problems with all MMO's at launch btw)

Sadly its not WoW anything since blizz stole just about everything anyways.

Cant tell the fanboys that though.

I know that. I also know a lot of folks that are gonna try WAR out and haven't been really paying it all that much attention. This is gonna be interesting.

Pheace · August 2008

Originally posted by syxx

Originally posted by MrVicchio

After reading all the "ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING" threads, I thought I would add my own.   Just for fun mind. The topic is serious, I am being serious and I think it's a legitimate issue of discussion.

Classes. There are only 4. WAIT, before you go off listing me all the different classes, how unique they are and that they fullfill their roles diferently from their arch type base...

There are still, only four classes in WAR. Tank, Light DPS, Ranged and Healer.

This is how your modern, WOWified user base is going to see the game. They won't see any difference between a Magus and Bright Wizard. A Shaman and a Warrior Priest.   In their minds, the simplified "roles" of the classes will be all that they see.   I was talking with a very good friend , trying to get him all fired up about WAR since I am in the beta. I didn't break NDA or anything, I just tried to exude enthusiasm and point him at the WAR sites.

His comment "But these classes, just reskins with different animations of the same four classes!"

That told me how and where, when the unwashed masses hit the WAR front in a month or so, are going to think. His first and only MMO is WoW.   I think Mythic and the WAR fans are oing to have to be patient with the masss as they realize that there is far more to WAR then just "class roles".

And that i think, will be WAR's biggest stumbling block assuming launch is smooth and the client is stable. (The two biggest problems with all MMO's at launch btw)

Sadly its not WoW anything since blizz stole just about everything anyways.

Cant tell the fanboys that though.

Because it's not but you can't tell the fanboys that

Only thing still in WoW since that time is the graphics basically. The things this OP is talking about have *zero* to do with what happened back then.

Hazmal · August 2008

If games catered to the people who have only played WOW, every game coming out in the future would be a $60 day care center. The game would consist of matching up the circle with the circle cut-out and the same for the square and triangle. Followed by treats and nap time. How fun!

I'm having trouble thinking of another archetype that would work, almost any playable class can be placed in one of those archetypes. Ranged melee perhaps?

Ender4 · August 2008

A Marauder(medium armor front line melee) really plays nothing like a White Lion(pet class) which plays nothing like a Witch Elf(stealthy squishy melee).

An Archmage(nuking healer) is absolutely nothing like a Warrior Priest(melee healer). etc.

You could break any MMORPG down into 4 roles pretty easily if you wanted to completely ignore what makes them different.

Raunu · August 2008

Honestly, if you really think that a Shamen and Warrior Priest feel like the same class... Then thats just too bad for you. Just wait till you play the game and compare the two classes for yourself.

You can say this about ANY MMO, there are only 4 Arch types and whatever class you pick will fall into one of these or maybe a combination of them.

For instance if you pick up a bow and shoot people, you fall into the ranged arch type.

Pick up some heavy armor, a sword and shield then you will fall into the tank arch type and so on.

If you're really that jaded with MMOs then don't play them. Even with Sandbox games your character will fall into these Arch types.

Honestly, all these people making gloom and doom posts and saying things that are true of many if not all popular MMOs.

Azrile · August 2008

I think the WOW effect will be perfectly balanced

A) On one side their will be players that will hate War just because they will expect it to be like WOW. Anything 'missing' will be brought up. Everything will be seen in 'wow' terms. Any class that casts dot's will be the new 'warlock' etc et

On the other side you will have the wow-haters who will love any game that isn't WOW. Anything that is done differently than WOW will be seen as an improvement.

The A type players will see 4 classes... the B type players will brag about 20 classes.

Me personally, I think the WOW lovers are right about this. the 20 classes mainly seem like 4 classes with a few 'racials'. Kinda like an undead Priest plays very differently than a NE priest in PvP.

Sain34 · August 2008

Sweeping generalzations don't profit any of us.

Xennith · August 2008

Originally posted by Azrile

I think the WOW effect will be perfectly balanced
A) On one side their will be players that will hate War just because they will expect it to be like WOW. Anything 'missing' will be brought up. Everything will be seen in 'wow' terms. Any class that casts dot's will be the new 'warlock' etc et
On the other side you will have the wow-haters who will love any game that isn't WOW. Anything that is done differently than WOW will be seen as an improvement.
The A type players will see 4 classes... the B type players will brag about 20 classes.
Me personally, I think the WOW lovers are right about this. the 20 classes mainly seem like 4 classes with a few 'racials'. Kinda like an undead Priest plays very differently than a NE priest in PvP.

im going to wait to play them before i say stuff like that. i really hope that all the WoW players hate WAR, i will never forget just how bad that community is.

Hazmal · August 2008

Originally posted by Azrile

I think the WOW effect will be perfectly balanced
A) On one side their will be players that will hate War just because they will expect it to be like WOW. Anything 'missing' will be brought up. Everything will be seen in 'wow' terms. Any class that casts dot's will be the new 'warlock' etc et
On the other side you will have the wow-haters who will love any game that isn't WOW. Anything that is done differently than WOW will be seen as an improvement.
The A type players will see 4 classes... the B type players will brag about 20 classes.
Me personally, I think the WOW lovers are right about this. the 20 classes mainly seem like 4 classes with a few 'racials'. Kinda like an undead Priest plays very differently than a NE priest in PvP.

Me personally, I fail to understand how someone can place 4 sections out there and honestly believe that the classes are the same. It is going to be a great few months when the game goes live; you'll get all the WOW-heads comparing and the haters contrasting. There should be a server for those people.

Ender4 · August 2008

Have you actually played Beta? I mean you could say Druid, Shaman, Priest and Paladin are all just healers in WoW and you would be about as truthful as saying the same about the WAR healers.

A warrior priest doesn't play at all like a runepriest, you won't feel like you are playing the same class at all. One charges into melee with a big hammer and fires off heals based on the damage they do(paladin like). The other is a back line healing class with only minor dmg abilities (priest like).

There are a couple mirror classes that play pretty similarly, but it is more the exception than the rule and you only find mirrors on the other side. No two destruction classes play alike and no two order classes do either.

Azrile · August 2008

Originally posted by Raunu

Honestly, if you really think that a Shamen and Warrior Priest feel like the same class... Then thats just too bad for you. Just wait till you play the game and compare the two classes for yourself.
You can say this about ANY MMO, there are only 4 Arch types and whatever class you pick will fall into one of these or maybe a combination of them.
For instance if you pick up a bow and shoot people, you fall into the ranged arch type.

Pick up some heavy armor, a sword and shield then you will fall into the tank arch type and so on.

If you're really that jaded with MMOs then don't play them. Even with Sandbox games your character will fall into these Arch types.
Honestly, all these people making gloom and doom posts and saying things that are true of many if not all popular MMOs.

But that can be said about WOW too. An affliction Warlock and a Destruction Warlock are almost completely different (they even need different gear). An Enhancement Shaman is completely different from an Elemental Shaman. A Moonkin Druid is completely different than a Feral Druid. A Shadow Priest is completely different than a Holy Priest.

While it is probably inaccurate to say that Warhammer only really has 6-8 classes.. it's just as inaccurate to say that WOW only has 9 classes.

Ascension08 · August 2008

Originally posted by Azrile

Originally posted by Raunu

Honestly, if you really think that a Shamen and Warrior Priest feel like the same class... Then thats just too bad for you. Just wait till you play the game and compare the two classes for yourself.
You can say this about ANY MMO, there are only 4 Arch types and whatever class you pick will fall into one of these or maybe a combination of them.
For instance if you pick up a bow and shoot people, you fall into the ranged arch type.

Pick up some heavy armor, a sword and shield then you will fall into the tank arch type and so on.

If you're really that jaded with MMOs then don't play them. Even with Sandbox games your character will fall into these Arch types.
Honestly, all these people making gloom and doom posts and saying things that are true of many if not all popular MMOs.

But that can be said about WOW too. An affliction Warlock and a Destruction Warlock are almost completely different (they even need different gear). An Enhancement Shaman is completely different from an Elemental Shaman. A Moonkin Druid is completely different than a Feral Druid. A Shadow Priest is completely different than a Holy Priest.

While it is probably inaccurate to say that Warhammer only really has 6-8 classes.. it's just as inaccurate to say that WOW only has 9 classes.

Ohhhh boy, you wanna get into masteries? Have you forgotten that Warhammer has them too? If you want to talk about that, there's 60 classes. And you don't have to put 41 points into a talent tree to get a new spell; you don't have to put points into crap just to get to something better.

Hazmal · August 2008

Originally posted by Azrile

Originally posted by Raunu

Honestly, if you really think that a Shamen and Warrior Priest feel like the same class... Then thats just too bad for you. Just wait till you play the game and compare the two classes for yourself.
You can say this about ANY MMO, there are only 4 Arch types and whatever class you pick will fall into one of these or maybe a combination of them.
For instance if you pick up a bow and shoot people, you fall into the ranged arch type.

Pick up some heavy armor, a sword and shield then you will fall into the tank arch type and so on.

If you're really that jaded with MMOs then don't play them. Even with Sandbox games your character will fall into these Arch types.
Honestly, all these people making gloom and doom posts and saying things that are true of many if not all popular MMOs.

But that can be said about WOW too. An affliction Warlock and a Destruction Warlock are almost completely different (they even need different gear). An Enhancement Shaman is completely different from an Elemental Shaman. A Moonkin Druid is completely different than a Feral Druid. A Shadow Priest is completely different than a Holy Priest.

While it is probably inaccurate to say that Warhammer only really has 6-8 classes.. it's just as inaccurate to say that WOW only has 9 classes.

Apples and oranges, you are comparing the class to the specialization of that class; if you are allowed to put anything towards various specializations there are hundreds of "classes" . If we were to use your logical reasoning here.

Make an argument that works.

Grunties · August 2008

Your friend is really you, isn't it

The upside to archetypes is that you have greater control over balancing. When you have classes that are truly completely different in all ways, there will always be a select few that are the ideal and the rest are gimp. If you have gimp classes no one plays, even if its different, the class might as well not even be implemented because its just taking up space. Different for different sake alone isn't necessarily good.

The downside is, as you mentioned, less true uniqueness between classes. But rarely is any class in any mmo truly unique compared to all others. Ultimately every class can be drilled down even further past the class level and defined only by how much dps they put out and how much they can take. Everything else is just minor details that affect how you put out the dps and how you take the damage. The existance of archetypes in WAR didn't really change that established mmo system.

I think you are making the mistake that the 'unwashed masses' even think about something like this. Most people just log in, pick a character that looks cool and jump in. They don't waste time evaluating balance, thinking about dps, min maxing and whether or not class has major functional differences compared to class b. Most don't pick things apart like that. Thats the realm of the serious gamer. If it looks cool, they play it.

Now that having been said... is your argument that theres not enough archetypes to create variety? If so, lets see some of your suggestions for new archetypes. You are sitting on a gold mine if you think you have one that every other mmo has yet to think of.

Avitu · August 2008

Originally posted by Xennith

Originally posted by Azrile

I think the WOW effect will be perfectly balanced
A) On one side their will be players that will hate War just because they will expect it to be like WOW. Anything 'missing' will be brought up. Everything will be seen in 'wow' terms. Any class that casts dot's will be the new 'warlock' etc et
On the other side you will have the wow-haters who will love any game that isn't WOW. Anything that is done differently than WOW will be seen as an improvement.
The A type players will see 4 classes... the B type players will brag about 20 classes.
Me personally, I think the WOW lovers are right about this. the 20 classes mainly seem like 4 classes with a few 'racials'. Kinda like an undead Priest plays very differently than a NE priest in PvP.

im going to wait to play them before i say stuff like that. i really hope that all the WoW players hate WAR, i will never forget just how bad that community is.

no, they have to come to WAR. They'll be free RP's

syxx · August 2008

Originally posted by Azrile

I think the WOW effect will be perfectly balanced
A) On one side their will be players that will hate War just because they will expect it to be like WOW. Anything 'missing' will be brought up. Everything will be seen in 'wow' terms. Any class that casts dot's will be the new 'warlock' etc et
On the other side you will have the wow-haters who will love any game that isn't WOW. Anything that is done differently than WOW will be seen as an improvement.
The A type players will see 4 classes... the B type players will brag about 20 classes.
Me personally, I think the WOW lovers are right about this. the 20 classes mainly seem like 4 classes with a few 'racials'. Kinda like an undead Priest plays very differently than a NE priest in PvP.

Undead priest does not play much differently in pvp as a NE...

As far as racials go WoW sucks big time with only 1-2 per class and they arent even really useful anymore.

WAR on the other hand has class specific tactics/Morale and they give you racials on top of that... Completely unique features compared to the WoW crap.

WoW is going to get schooled 10 times over with WARS in depth play

Azrile · August 2008

I'm not talking masteries and talents. Those are subtle changes to a class that add a few things. In other words, I wouldn't claim that a fire mage and a frost mage are two different classes in WOW.. since the basic gameplay is very similar. However, in the examples I gave above.. the gameplay is so completely different that the 'specs' might as well be a different class.

Sain34 · August 2008

Originally posted by Azrile

Originally posted by Raunu

Honestly, if you really think that a Shamen and Warrior Priest feel like the same class... Then thats just too bad for you. Just wait till you play the game and compare the two classes for yourself.
You can say this about ANY MMO, there are only 4 Arch types and whatever class you pick will fall into one of these or maybe a combination of them.
For instance if you pick up a bow and shoot people, you fall into the ranged arch type.

Pick up some heavy armor, a sword and shield then you will fall into the tank arch type and so on.

If you're really that jaded with MMOs then don't play them. Even with Sandbox games your character will fall into these Arch types.
Honestly, all these people making gloom and doom posts and saying things that are true of many if not all popular MMOs.

But that can be said about WOW too. An affliction Warlock and a Destruction Warlock are almost completely different (they even need different gear). An Enhancement Shaman is completely different from an Elemental Shaman. A Moonkin Druid is completely different than a Feral Druid. A Shadow Priest is completely different than a Holy Priest.

While it is probably inaccurate to say that Warhammer only really has 6-8 classes.. it's just as inaccurate to say that WOW only has 9 classes.

The argument is "what do you consider a class" because I can come out and say that WoW or any other game for that matter only has 4 classes, Tank. healer. MeleeDPS and MagicDPS and I would be correct.

Deto123 · August 2008

As a beta tester i can tell you, your fears can be put to rest The diversity in all the classes and how they play are so different. You have base class, for example a shaman can heal as a warrior priest, beyond that they don t feel anything alike. Another example 2 shamans, depending on the career paths you chose they actually feel alot different. I tink you can understand what i m saying. I wouldn t worry on the 4 basic arch types as being all thats available, it simply isnt that way.

AAnarki · August 2008

What about Hunters? As i recall they don't fit into the 'Tank. healer. MeleeDPS and MagicDPS' Catagories you listed. I Have always classed them as ranged DPS and they aren't Magic DPS.

Or would you simply bunch all Ranged / Melee / Magic DPS classes into one all encompassing DPS class?

Azrile · August 2008

Originally posted by Sain34

Originally posted by Azrile

Originally posted by Raunu

Honestly, if you really think that a Shamen and Warrior Priest feel like the same class... Then thats just too bad for you. Just wait till you play the game and compare the two classes for yourself.
You can say this about ANY MMO, there are only 4 Arch types and whatever class you pick will fall into one of these or maybe a combination of them.
For instance if you pick up a bow and shoot people, you fall into the ranged arch type.

Pick up some heavy armor, a sword and shield then you will fall into the tank arch type and so on.

If you're really that jaded with MMOs then don't play them. Even with Sandbox games your character will fall into these Arch types.
Honestly, all these people making gloom and doom posts and saying things that are true of many if not all popular MMOs.

But that can be said about WOW too. An affliction Warlock and a Destruction Warlock are almost completely different (they even need different gear). An Enhancement Shaman is completely different from an Elemental Shaman. A Moonkin Druid is completely different than a Feral Druid. A Shadow Priest is completely different than a Holy Priest.

While it is probably inaccurate to say that Warhammer only really has 6-8 classes.. it's just as inaccurate to say that WOW only has 9 classes.

The argument is "what do you consider a class" because I can come out and say that WoW or any other game for that matter only has 4 classes, Tank. healer. MeleeDPS and MagicDPS and I would be correct.

And that is exacly my point in my original post. If you hate WOW, you are going to say that wow has only 9 classes and Warhammer has 20+. If you are anti-warhammer, you are going to point out that many of Warhammers different classes are actually the same. It all comes down to what your bias is.

My point is simply that the difference between an elemental shaman and an enhancement shaman is probably going to be greater than the difference in two of the classes in Warhammer.

teabag · August 2008

WAR already doing well against AoC and Lotr and will steal some WoW players base.

There is millions of bored WoW fans that wanted something new and WAR will do.

Grunties · August 2008

Originally posted by AAnarki

What about Hunters? As i recall they don't fit into the 'Tank. healer. MeleeDPS and MagicDPS' Catagories you listed. I Have always classed them as ranged DPS and they aren't Magic DPS.
Or would you simply bunch all Ranged / Melee / Magic DPS classes into one all encompassing DPS class?

All dps could be ultimately lumped together. But the more moderate approach I think would be to lump ranged dps together (magic or otherwise). Because whats really the difference between ranged dps with a bow and arrow versus with a fireball? Just a different graphic and ability icon.

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