As long the so called free for all pvp games have all kinds of saveguards build in there game so carebears dont have much risk been ganked, but pk is punished for been a true ffa pvp player, it will fail yes.
If a game is tagged ffa pvp it should be free for all, so all who make a avatar on such server, you risk been ganked pked corpse camp, when you still whine your just on wrong server and should be playing on a pve server instead, its as simple as that.
How absurd can you be? You really think that the world is free for all? Barbarism is the days when everything is "almost" FFA and we call them the dark days in history, where civilisation collapsed, trade collapse, population dwindled till even the FFA have no one else to kill, one one else to trade with, no one else to talk to. You think that is glorified?
So you imagine a game in which you can kill anyone you want, and yet NPCs will be there to serve you, love you, kiss you a** and repair your armor, sell you food, sell you arrows. Oh great you have real logic.
So you imagine a game in which you can recklessly ambush and kill anyone you want, and these RL people would have to team with you, go explore with you, let you backstab them when they go pull a mob for the TEAM to work out. AND you have the balls to suggest that these other people will love you, adore you, play with you, pay for the game, the account, spend the time in the game and be AMBUSHED by you. Oh great, hate to tell you this, you stink, I do not want you to be in my game, and I definitely do not want to be in a game with you around.
So you imagine you are a good customer? Drive most players away till the game becomes a ghost town while you camp the new player spawn point hoping for the next player, who might never show up, as the game is driven to the point of extinction by your malicious behaviour. Wake up call. Developers do not make those kind of games because they hate you too, and they make sure you behave yourself when playing in their game, and they do so by making it NOT free for all.
Many sane people in MMORPG has already pointed out that sandbox is not the same thing as FFA PKing.
I agree you can have a sandbox without FFA actually
Sandbox meand freedom. FFAPvP is freedom. Thats why thay go hand in hand. But in sandbox there is no levels, so there is no lowlevels to gank. I hate when people talk about FFAPvP as it only have to do with idiotes. Im a RPer and need FFAPvP to roleplay.
It's this kind of backwards thinking that keep sandboxes from becoming anymore then Darkfalls.
Since there isn't levels you can't gank lowbies? What?!? That makes absolutely no sense.
What I love is when people pull out the "I'm roleplaying" to justify acting like douche bags. Not saying you are doing this because maybe you are or maybe you are full of shit but it is fishy that everyone uses this a justification.
I see no need for ffapvp. I don't mind pvp the way it was set up in DAoC. But if I wanted to worry about casualties of puberty killing me I would go back to work at the prison. Give me my quests, factions and zones where I know I am vulnerable to pvp and it is optional.
Sandbox meand freedom. FFAPvP is freedom. Thats why thay go hand in hand. But in sandbox there is no levels, so there is no lowlevels to gank. I hate when people talk about FFAPvP as it only have to do with idiotes. Im a RPer and need FFAPvP to roleplay.
It's this kind of backwards thinking that keep sandboxes from becoming anymore then Darkfalls.
Since there isn't levels you can't gank lowbies? What?!? That makes absolutely no sense.
What I love is when people pull out the "I'm roleplaying" to justify acting like douche bags. Not saying you are doing this because maybe you are or maybe you are full of shit but it is fishy that everyone uses this a justification.
Actually there are a lot of RP servers that are FFA he's correct. This goes back to MUDs.
And yes roleplayers will kill anyone lowbie or not; due to roleplaying reasons. EVE has a roleplay alliance (CVA) that is just as hard as any other. And they will kill you purely for roleplaying purposes if you pose a threat to Amarr empire. CVA has a strick KOS policy for players that joined gallente/minnie empire
And technically there is no "lowbie" if the presence of levels is not there. Vets have no way to tell you are a lowbie. A vet can put on lowbie armor in a skill-based game and 'pretend'. In UO, players would put on mage gear over their Armor to trick players into thinking their clothies for example
Recall thats the whole point of skill-based games, they lack tactical transparency. They don't hang a number over your head informing everyone in town you're a noob and please come end me
I think FFAPVP is good in theory. The problem is the players themselves who would probably turn an immersive sandbox game into another ganking bloodfest. I kill you, you respawn, i Kill you, you respawn, I kill you... haha pwnd noOb XD. This kind of behavior exists and is extremely hurtful to the MMORPG genre. It destroys any kind of realism, it destroys roleplay, it destroys immersion, it destroys everything.
But FFAPVP is STILL a good concept. Say for example you are the leader of a guild for some time. You are all living in the same tiny village and everyone is peaceful to everyone. Recently, people rarely agree with the decisions you take about the guild. You feel there are people who think you are not the leader they want. You begin to think they might get rid of you. This is a situation where FFAPVP would be interesting because you know "they could" try to kill you and take your place... but will they? It would add a whole layer of danger and immersion to the game.
Like i said however, in practice it would probably turn into that damn mindless killing... sad really.
I think FFAPVP is good in theory. The problem is the players themselves who would probably turn an immersive sandbox game into another ganking bloodfest. I kill you, you respawn, i Kill you, you respawn, I kill you... haha pwnd noOb XD. This kind of behavior exists and is extremely hurtful to the MMORPG genre. It destroys any kind of realism, it destroys roleplay, it destroys immersion, it destroys everything. But FFAPVP is STILL a good concept. Say for example you are the leader of a guild for some time. You are all living in the same tiny village and everyone is peaceful to everyone. Recently, people rarely agree with the decisions you take about the guild. You feel there are people who think you are not the leader they want. You begin to think they might get rid of you. This is a situation where FFAPVP would be interesting because you know "they could" try to kill you and take your place... but will they? It would add a whole layer of danger and immersion to the game. Like i said however, in practice it would probably turn into that damn mindless killing... sad really.
edit; grammar
I've seen it work but only in games built from ground up to support PVP; mostly indie / independant. Usually the penalties for death are pretty harsh. They never let you just respawn like an immortal. On one particular server I played on (RP-FFA PVP), once you die that was it. Was over.
And there were politics like this. There was a group of crafters that held monopoly over the player crafted goods. So the players were talking bout rebeling and killing them all. And the devs encouraged it
Not sure how it all played up in the end. I left to try out EVE
was an rp server on NWN
Occasionally you might have a griefer popup that killed you for no reason. The GMs booted those. You had to have a valid RP reason for ending someone.
The situation I mentioned above was a valid RP reason
I should add though for a small community FFA works. But for a large mass of people (1,000+) I would investigate something like EVE
In the end, I think the important aspect of sandbox is player interaction and player driven content. You can have that content perhaps without direct player killing. Players can just work together to build cities like they do in A Tale of The Desert or whatever. I never played it; so see for yourself. But I read Laura mention it was a sandbox; player driven world. No pvp
So I hold to the stance that sandbox can work without direct player killing although the PKs add a certain drama and politics that appears to be unmatched
MMORPGs are games with very high potential. Unfortunately, I believe that games falling in this category these years are not on the right track at all. What is a MMORPG? Well, it depends who you ask the question I guess. Personnally I would say that a MMORPG is supposed to be a believable online virtual world where people can do pretty much whatever they want. Killing monsters, killing other players, forming clans and guilds, trading goods, participating in epic battles, controlling strategic territories, building cities, building a house, building a ship and discover the world, anything really... as long as you are free. Unfortunately, it seems that most MMO developers don't agree with this definition. For most of them, a MMORPG consists of an online virtual world (so far so good) where every players start at level 1 and gain additional levels through a few game mechanics like questing, farming and pvping. When a player reach the level cap, we present him the "end-game content" in order to keep him interested for a while. The end-game consists of massive "PvE raids" that rewards the player with good weapons and good armor or other PvP scripted events.
It's not that all of these things suck, it's more that this is not what a MMORPG should be. I think players are ready for a true sandbox game. Enough of these artificial worlds full of in-game rules and boundaries. Just give us a world and we'll play with it. Now about the thing called "PvP", I have to say this : It should be possible to be attacked anytime by anyone anywhere! Yes this is what we call open pvp, but I prefer to describe it this way : A virtual world should be full of monsters, full of players and full of other dangers. You should NEVER be 100% safe just because you are in a village. Warn you, I am more into PvE than PvP so I know I would be the first to be pissed off if I got killed in a village by some idiot screaming "W0ot! pwnd n0ob!". Instead of crying to a GM however, how about forming a small clan with 3-4 friends to kick the ass of this jerk and loot his corpse stealing all his precious equipment while we're at it? Don't like encounters against other players at all? Ok, fine... how about travelling to a small unknown place in the world, build a house and try to form a small and peaceful community right there? Don't you think that it would be way better than some enforced rule that protects you from other players under certain conditions (difference in levels, safe zones, etc).
A game like Darkfall (if it ever becomes a game) might be the first to allow all this kind of freedom and immersion. What they promise is almost exactly what I am describing here... but I guess we'll have to wait and see. What's your take on sandbox-like mmorpgs?
Other than the combat aspect, a game called "A tale in the desert" is exactly what you described. You start out in the middle of the sandbox (yep, it is a desert after all) with nothing but a few seeds. From there you do what you will...
I played the first year it was up. It is also one of those games that has a distinct end. Once certainly worldly criteria are met, the game will stop and reset (and no, it is not an all of a sudden type thing, you will have far warning that its coming). But the lack of combat made it boring in my opinion. That is why I didnt resub. There was so much to do... you had to litterally build everything, farm everything, harvest everything. You needed to plant seed so you can harvest the crop to make things from it (like cloth, or straw, or other things). Then, the products that you made are then final goods or used in other things. LIke the straw was needed to make bricks. But you also had to harvest mud. Build a brick mold, and a brick drying rack. Everything you needed to survive you had to do (less combat). If they added that in, I think it would be the end all game of the century!
Actually there are a lot of RP servers that are FFA he's correct. This goes back to MUDs.
And yes roleplayers will kill anyone lowbie or not; due to roleplaying reasons. EVE has a roleplay alliance (CVA) that is just as hard as any other. And they will kill you purely for roleplaying purposes if you pose a threat to Amarr empire. CVA has a strick KOS policy for players that joined gallente/minnie empire
And technically there is no "lowbie" if the presence of levels is not there. Vets have no way to tell you are a lowbie. A vet can put on lowbie armor in a skill-based game and 'pretend'. In UO, players would put on mage gear over their Armor to trick players into thinking their clothies for example
Recall thats the whole point of skill-based games, they lack tactical transparency. They don't hang a number over your head informing everyone in town you're a noob and please come end me
A lot really please elaborate? I played on AoC RP server which was one of how many? RP and FFA pvp do not have to go hand and hand. So no he is not correct.
No lowbies? Low skill players are no different then low level characters. You can't tell who is and who isn't a lowbie? Hmm yeah cause a pker couldn't possible just to to a low skill mob area like Shame level 1 to hunt lowbies. Who are you trying to kid?
Hiding level would not stop people high level/skill people from going into low level/skill areas to easily pwn lowbies.
Actually there are a lot of RP servers that are FFA he's correct. This goes back to MUDs.
And yes roleplayers will kill anyone lowbie or not; due to roleplaying reasons. EVE has a roleplay alliance (CVA) that is just as hard as any other. And they will kill you purely for roleplaying purposes if you pose a threat to Amarr empire. CVA has a strick KOS policy for players that joined gallente/minnie empire
And technically there is no "lowbie" if the presence of levels is not there. Vets have no way to tell you are a lowbie. A vet can put on lowbie armor in a skill-based game and 'pretend'. In UO, players would put on mage gear over their Armor to trick players into thinking their clothies for example
Recall thats the whole point of skill-based games, they lack tactical transparency. They don't hang a number over your head informing everyone in town you're a noob and please come end me
A lot really please elaborate? I played on AoC RP server which was one of how many? RP and FFA pvp do not have to go hand and hand. So no he is not correct.
No lowbies? Low skill players are no different then low level characters. You can't tell who is and who isn't a lowbie? Hmm yeah cause a pker couldn't possible just to to a low skill mob area like Shame level 1 to hunt lowbies. Who are you trying to kid?
Hiding level would not stop people high level/skill people from going into low level/skill areas to easily pwn lowbies.
You never played a skill-based game at all have you. There is no such thing as a "low skill area". Let's go with EVE since that's popular. Please do share where the low skill areas are
[edit] I must admit you are right to an extent however! If you follow......
another example from EVE, vets fly Tech I ships all the time because it costs them far less to lose. My friend, aserious old timer in EVE, got ganked by a new character the other day while he was out mining
There should be no such distinction between a vet and a lowbie if game setup right. Attach more "risk" to wearing expensive epics and you have a balance. Vets wont wear their best items everywhere they go like they're gods
Originally posted by Deneb A game like Darkfall (if it ever becomes a game) might be the first to allow all this kind of freedom and immersion. What they promise is almost exactly what I am describing here... but I guess we'll have to wait and see. What's your take on sandbox-like mmorpgs?
Actually the first such game was Ultima Online The 2nd was EVE Online A close runner up for 2nd (3rd) was Star Wars Galaxies (before the NGE). Saga of Ryzom was also built along these lines but is level based rather than purely skill tree based... though it does offer a great deal of freedom in the game. Asheron's Call, on the Darktide server, was also similar in style to sandbox games though it was never a true sandbox it came pretty close.
There were a few others but those are the best of them... and generally the most well-known.
And, I agree, sandbox MMORPG's have really started to fade from the MMORPG genre, which is a shame, really. Considering how well both UO and EVE have done the genre really needs another solid sandbox title. I, too, am watching Darkfall but at this point have given up on any hope of it ever being released. I started considering Darkfall vaporware a very long time ago...
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
MMORPGs are games with very high potential. Unfortunately, I believe that games falling in this category these years are not on the right track at all. What is a MMORPG? Well, it depends who you ask the question I guess. Personnally I would say that a MMORPG is supposed to be a believable online virtual world where people can do pretty much whatever they want. Killing monsters, killing other players, forming clans and guilds, trading goods, participating in epic battles, controlling strategic territories, building cities, building a house, building a ship and discover the world, anything really... as long as you are free. Unfortunately, it seems that most MMO developers don't agree with this definition. For most of them, a MMORPG consists of an online virtual world (so far so good) where every players start at level 1 and gain additional levels through a few game mechanics like questing, farming and pvping. When a player reach the level cap, we present him the "end-game content" in order to keep him interested for a while. The end-game consists of massive "PvE raids" that rewards the player with good weapons and good armor or other PvP scripted events.
It's not that all of these things suck, it's more that this is not what a MMORPG should be. I think players are ready for a true sandbox game. Enough of these artificial worlds full of in-game rules and boundaries. Just give us a world and we'll play with it. Now about the thing called "PvP", I have to say this : It should be possible to be attacked anytime by anyone anywhere! Yes this is what we call open pvp, but I prefer to describe it this way : A virtual world should be full of monsters, full of players and full of other dangers. You should NEVER be 100% safe just because you are in a village. Warn you, I am more into PvE than PvP so I know I would be the first to be pissed off if I got killed in a village by some idiot screaming "W0ot! pwnd n0ob!". Instead of crying to a GM however, how about forming a small clan with 3-4 friends to kick the ass of this jerk and loot his corpse stealing all his precious equipment while we're at it? Don't like encounters against other players at all? Ok, fine... how about travelling to a small unknown place in the world, build a house and try to form a small and peaceful community right there? Don't you think that it would be way better than some enforced rule that protects you from other players under certain conditions (difference in levels, safe zones, etc).
A game like Darkfall (if it ever becomes a game) might be the first to allow all this kind of freedom and immersion. What they promise is almost exactly what I am describing here... but I guess we'll have to wait and see. What's your take on sandbox-like mmorpgs?
Other than the combat aspect, a game called "A tale in the desert" is exactly what you described. You start out in the middle of the sandbox (yep, it is a desert after all) with nothing but a few seeds. From there you do what you will...
I played the first year it was up. It is also one of those games that has a distinct end. Once certainly worldly criteria are met, the game will stop and reset (and no, it is not an all of a sudden type thing, you will have far warning that its coming). But the lack of combat made it boring in my opinion. That is why I didnt resub. There was so much to do... you had to litterally build everything, farm everything, harvest everything. You needed to plant seed so you can harvest the crop to make things from it (like cloth, or straw, or other things). Then, the products that you made are then final goods or used in other things. LIke the straw was needed to make bricks. But you also had to harvest mud. Build a brick mold, and a brick drying rack. Everything you needed to survive you had to do (less combat). If they added that in, I think it would be the end all game of the century!
At least you gave it a try which says something. Sounds very interesting there. Very unique and fresh
You never played a skill-based game at all have you. There is no such thing as a "low skill area". Let's go with EVE since that's popular. Please do share where the low skill areas are
Low skill area would be the higher security areas. But Eve is set up different then most games.
Where would lowbies mass in UO? Basically most dungeon level one except desard ice and maybe fire, orc forts, most of t2a (lost land), lizardman swamps, surrounding areas around towns fighting deer etc. basically anywhere a lowbie could get skill and not get one shotted. Dungeons to t2a (vesper graveyard and that dungeon that lead right into town) and moongates (only lowbies usually used them since of recalls).
Now please tell me you can't roughly figure out where to go in a skill based game to kill lowbies.
You never played a skill-based game at all have you. There is no such thing as a "low skill area". Let's go with EVE since that's popular. Please do share where the low skill areas are
Low skill area would be the higher security areas. But Eve is set up different then most games.
Where would lowbies mass in UO? Basically most dungeon level one except desard ice and maybe fire, orc forts, most of t2a (lost land), lizardman swamps, surrounding areas around towns fighting deer etc. basically anywhere a lowbie could get skill and not get one shotted. Dungeons to t2a (vesper graveyard and that dungeon that lead right into town) and moongates (only lowbies usually used them since of recalls).
Now please tell me you can't roughly figure out where to go in a skill based game to kill lowbies.
Ideally, I firmly bleieve the game should be setup like EVE. That way you can build towers anywhere you like and guildmates can all farm the surrounding region they own
lowbies should be able to do something to survive at the player run city in a good sandbox. No one should be forced to follow a linear path. Rather, you can takeover good land (like in EVE) and everyone shares the wealth
So you are correct for certian titles. I am correct in regards to a more loose sandbox (well my point of view I can be wrong!)
You never played a skill-based game at all have you. There is no such thing as a "low skill area". Let's go with EVE since that's popular. Please do share where the low skill areas are
Low skill area would be the higher security areas. But Eve is set up different then most games. [/quote]
Hate to break this to you but there are just as many "lowbies" in EVE in 0.0 as there are in high-sec.... there are also more vets in 'high sec' than you seem to realize.
There is no 'safe space' in EVE... there is 'safer' space but you can be attacked and killed anywhere in game except inside a space station. As to lowbies? Until they join a player corporation they are very well protected for the most part if they stay in 'high sec'. As are vets that are in npc corps as well. They're not 100% safe but they are pretty well protected unless they do something insane like fly a T1 hauler with hundreds of millions of isk in assets stuffed inside it
And once a newer player joins a player corporation? Given that most player corporations either live in 0.0 or have access to it? It thus translates that a very large chunk of newer players wind up in 0.0 as well.
There is also the simple FACT that in EVE a vet is very killable... even by lower skilled players.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
Hate to break this to you but there are just as many "lowbies" in EVE in 0.0 as there are in high-sec.... there are also more vets in 'high sec' than you seem to realize. There is no 'safe space' in EVE... there is 'safer' space but you can be attacked and killed anywhere in game except inside a space station. As to lowbies? Until they join a player corporation they are very well protected for the most part if they stay in 'high sec'. As are vets that are in npc corps as well. They're not 100% safe but they are pretty well protected unless they do something insane like fly a T1 hauler with hundreds of millions of isk in assets stuffed inside it And once a newer player joins a player corporation? Given that most player corporations either live in 0.0 or have access to it? It thus translates that a very large chunk of newer players wind up in 0.0 as well. There is also the simple FACT that in EVE a vet is very killable... even by lower skilled players.
But like I said Eve has a different set up then UO the other FFA pvp.
I also hear that the devs are adding in new features to help stop or lessen suicide pvp in high security sectors.
I didn't get very far into Eve but how could a lowbie in a lowbie ship possible take a vet in a well equiped ship?
Hate to break this to you but there are just as many "lowbies" in EVE in 0.0 as there are in high-sec.... there are also more vets in 'high sec' than you seem to realize. There is no 'safe space' in EVE... there is 'safer' space but you can be attacked and killed anywhere in game except inside a space station. As to lowbies? Until they join a player corporation they are very well protected for the most part if they stay in 'high sec'. As are vets that are in npc corps as well. They're not 100% safe but they are pretty well protected unless they do something insane like fly a T1 hauler with hundreds of millions of isk in assets stuffed inside it And once a newer player joins a player corporation? Given that most player corporations either live in 0.0 or have access to it? It thus translates that a very large chunk of newer players wind up in 0.0 as well. There is also the simple FACT that in EVE a vet is very killable... even by lower skilled players.
But like I said Eve has a different set up then UO the other FFA pvp.
I also hear that the devs are adding in new features to help stop or lessen suicide pvp in high security sectors.
I didn't get very far into Eve but how could a lowbie in a lowbie ship possible take a vet in a well equiped ship?
newbies can get into tough little ships really quick. In my corpmate case, he was flying a Vexor I believe which has bonuses for mining. The newbie had a myrm. He tore up my friend cause my corpmate was defenseless. The newbie was supposed to be killing the rats in the area but instead turned on ym corpmate out of greed. he demanded a ransom or he would destroy my corpmate
he refused and lost his ship. it was nothing Vexor is cheap for him. But im not sure he got podded which may have set him back.
anyway....
Yeah the suicide ganking nerf I havent read up on that yet. So I can't say anything on that
But that's not a true newbie. A true newbie wouldn't have a high end ship available to them.
In this particular instance he could have killed me corpmate using a frigate. my corpmate was in a mining ship which has no weapons. He depended on the newbie for protection while he was mining and was betrayed
you can have years of experience in EVE but that will mean nothing in the wrong situation
You never played a skill-based game at all have you. There is no such thing as a "low skill area". Let's go with EVE since that's popular. Please do share where the low skill areas are
Low skill area would be the higher security areas. But Eve is set up different then most games.
Where would lowbies mass in UO? Basically most dungeon level one except desard ice and maybe fire, orc forts, most of t2a (lost land), lizardman swamps, surrounding areas around towns fighting deer etc. basically anywhere a lowbie could get skill and not get one shotted. Dungeons to t2a (vesper graveyard and that dungeon that lead right into town) and moongates (only lowbies usually used them since of recalls).
Now please tell me you can't roughly figure out where to go in a skill based game to kill lowbies.
Yeah that was a good post I made an incorrect assumption apparently. Yeah I tried to edit my original post but it was too late....
And yeah it would be great to see a fantasy MMO be something akin to EVE. I've been meaning to checkout Shadowbane but I'm assuming everyone is already max leveled when they allow players into their player run city / guild
But that's not a true newbie. A true newbie wouldn't have a high end ship available to them.
In this particular instance he could have killed me corpmate using a frigate. my corpmate was in a mining ship which has no weapons. He depended on the newbie for protection while he was mining and was betrayed
you can have years of experience in EVE but that will mean nothing in the wrong situation
Yes but again your example shows the difference between Eve and most games.
To convert that into a UO example it would be like a 7x gm combat character and going after a 7x gm crafter. Sure the 7x gm crafter isn't a lowbie but he has no chance to defend themselves.
I enjoy pvp I would honestly really like to see ffa pvp again but there needs to be functions, systems or something that punish people for ppvp (pansy player vs player) not eliminate it. PvP should be about challenge not about how can I get the easiest kill to stroke my ego. I want absolute freedom but I was real consequences.
Yeah that was a good post I made an incorrect assumption apparently. Yeah I tried to edit my original post but it was too late....
And yeah it would be great to see a fantasy MMO be something akin to EVE. I've been meaning to checkout Shadowbane but I'm assuming everyone is already max leveled when they allow players into their player run city / guild
Well I believe it is free so you might as well. I wouldn't hold your breath tho I heard it's pretty bad that's why its free.
If you are looking for skill and consentual pvp ryzom is starting back up here soon. I've never played myself but looks interesting.
But that's not a true newbie. A true newbie wouldn't have a high end ship available to them.
In this particular instance he could have killed me corpmate using a frigate. my corpmate was in a mining ship which has no weapons. He depended on the newbie for protection while he was mining and was betrayed
you can have years of experience in EVE but that will mean nothing in the wrong situation
Yes but again your example shows the difference between Eve and most games.
To convert that into a UO example it would be like a 7x gm combat character and going after a 7x gm crafter. Sure the 7x gm crafter isn't a lowbie but he has no chance to defend themselves.
I enjoy pvp I would honestly really like to see ffa pvp again but there needs to be functions, systems or something that punish people for ppvp (pansy player vs player) not eliminate it. PvP should be about challenge not about how can I get the easiest kill to stroke my ego. I want absolute freedom but I was real consequences.
Even in FPS games you might have a VIP or Engineer that is horrible in combat so they need protecting. Games that have roles tend to be that way. There is just no way to have 100% fair pvp unless everyone is the exact same. Even FPS games have evolved beyond that. In TF2 / BF2142, etc you have Classes whereas the weaker guys need protection
That crafter, if not interrupted, could be gathering minerals from your lands. He's a thief and he needs to be put down
The other fringe case is simply killing him for pleasure. Well, pirate is a valid role in an FFA area. If the crafter doesnt want to risk it, then he can stay in the PVE areas (safer area). This is how EVE works; it works
Comments
As long the so called free for all pvp games have all kinds of saveguards build in there game so carebears dont have much risk been ganked, but pk is punished for been a true ffa pvp player, it will fail yes.
If a game is tagged ffa pvp it should be free for all, so all who make a avatar on such server, you risk been ganked pked corpse camp, when you still whine your just on wrong server and should be playing on a pve server instead, its as simple as that.
How absurd can you be? You really think that the world is free for all? Barbarism is the days when everything is "almost" FFA and we call them the dark days in history, where civilisation collapsed, trade collapse, population dwindled till even the FFA have no one else to kill, one one else to trade with, no one else to talk to. You think that is glorified?
So you imagine a game in which you can kill anyone you want, and yet NPCs will be there to serve you, love you, kiss you a** and repair your armor, sell you food, sell you arrows. Oh great you have real logic.
So you imagine a game in which you can recklessly ambush and kill anyone you want, and these RL people would have to team with you, go explore with you, let you backstab them when they go pull a mob for the TEAM to work out. AND you have the balls to suggest that these other people will love you, adore you, play with you, pay for the game, the account, spend the time in the game and be AMBUSHED by you. Oh great, hate to tell you this, you stink, I do not want you to be in my game, and I definitely do not want to be in a game with you around.
So you imagine you are a good customer? Drive most players away till the game becomes a ghost town while you camp the new player spawn point hoping for the next player, who might never show up, as the game is driven to the point of extinction by your malicious behaviour. Wake up call. Developers do not make those kind of games because they hate you too, and they make sure you behave yourself when playing in their game, and they do so by making it NOT free for all.
Many sane people in MMORPG has already pointed out that sandbox is not the same thing as FFA PKing.
I agree you can have a sandbox without FFA actually
It's this kind of backwards thinking that keep sandboxes from becoming anymore then Darkfalls.
Since there isn't levels you can't gank lowbies? What?!? That makes absolutely no sense.
What I love is when people pull out the "I'm roleplaying" to justify acting like douche bags. Not saying you are doing this because maybe you are or maybe you are full of shit but it is fishy that everyone uses this a justification.
I see no need for ffapvp. I don't mind pvp the way it was set up in DAoC. But if I wanted to worry about casualties of puberty killing me I would go back to work at the prison. Give me my quests, factions and zones where I know I am vulnerable to pvp and it is optional.
It's this kind of backwards thinking that keep sandboxes from becoming anymore then Darkfalls.
Since there isn't levels you can't gank lowbies? What?!? That makes absolutely no sense.
What I love is when people pull out the "I'm roleplaying" to justify acting like douche bags. Not saying you are doing this because maybe you are or maybe you are full of shit but it is fishy that everyone uses this a justification.
Actually there are a lot of RP servers that are FFA he's correct. This goes back to MUDs.
And yes roleplayers will kill anyone lowbie or not; due to roleplaying reasons. EVE has a roleplay alliance (CVA) that is just as hard as any other. And they will kill you purely for roleplaying purposes if you pose a threat to Amarr empire. CVA has a strick KOS policy for players that joined gallente/minnie empire
And technically there is no "lowbie" if the presence of levels is not there. Vets have no way to tell you are a lowbie. A vet can put on lowbie armor in a skill-based game and 'pretend'. In UO, players would put on mage gear over their Armor to trick players into thinking their clothies for example
Recall thats the whole point of skill-based games, they lack tactical transparency. They don't hang a number over your head informing everyone in town you're a noob and please come end me
I think FFAPVP is good in theory. The problem is the players themselves who would probably turn an immersive sandbox game into another ganking bloodfest. I kill you, you respawn, i Kill you, you respawn, I kill you... haha pwnd noOb XD. This kind of behavior exists and is extremely hurtful to the MMORPG genre. It destroys any kind of realism, it destroys roleplay, it destroys immersion, it destroys everything.
But FFAPVP is STILL a good concept. Say for example you are the leader of a guild for some time. You are all living in the same tiny village and everyone is peaceful to everyone. Recently, people rarely agree with the decisions you take about the guild. You feel there are people who think you are not the leader they want. You begin to think they might get rid of you. This is a situation where FFAPVP would be interesting because you know "they could" try to kill you and take your place... but will they? It would add a whole layer of danger and immersion to the game.
Like i said however, in practice it would probably turn into that damn mindless killing... sad really.
edit; grammar
I've seen it work but only in games built from ground up to support PVP; mostly indie / independant. Usually the penalties for death are pretty harsh. They never let you just respawn like an immortal. On one particular server I played on (RP-FFA PVP), once you die that was it. Was over.
And there were politics like this. There was a group of crafters that held monopoly over the player crafted goods. So the players were talking bout rebeling and killing them all. And the devs encouraged it
Not sure how it all played up in the end. I left to try out EVE
was an rp server on NWN
Occasionally you might have a griefer popup that killed you for no reason. The GMs booted those. You had to have a valid RP reason for ending someone.
The situation I mentioned above was a valid RP reason
I should add though for a small community FFA works. But for a large mass of people (1,000+) I would investigate something like EVE
In the end, I think the important aspect of sandbox is player interaction and player driven content. You can have that content perhaps without direct player killing. Players can just work together to build cities like they do in A Tale of The Desert or whatever. I never played it; so see for yourself. But I read Laura mention it was a sandbox; player driven world. No pvp
So I hold to the stance that sandbox can work without direct player killing although the PKs add a certain drama and politics that appears to be unmatched
Other than the combat aspect, a game called "A tale in the desert" is exactly what you described. You start out in the middle of the sandbox (yep, it is a desert after all) with nothing but a few seeds. From there you do what you will...
I played the first year it was up. It is also one of those games that has a distinct end. Once certainly worldly criteria are met, the game will stop and reset (and no, it is not an all of a sudden type thing, you will have far warning that its coming). But the lack of combat made it boring in my opinion. That is why I didnt resub. There was so much to do... you had to litterally build everything, farm everything, harvest everything. You needed to plant seed so you can harvest the crop to make things from it (like cloth, or straw, or other things). Then, the products that you made are then final goods or used in other things. LIke the straw was needed to make bricks. But you also had to harvest mud. Build a brick mold, and a brick drying rack. Everything you needed to survive you had to do (less combat). If they added that in, I think it would be the end all game of the century!
Actually there are a lot of RP servers that are FFA he's correct. This goes back to MUDs.
And yes roleplayers will kill anyone lowbie or not; due to roleplaying reasons. EVE has a roleplay alliance (CVA) that is just as hard as any other. And they will kill you purely for roleplaying purposes if you pose a threat to Amarr empire. CVA has a strick KOS policy for players that joined gallente/minnie empire
And technically there is no "lowbie" if the presence of levels is not there. Vets have no way to tell you are a lowbie. A vet can put on lowbie armor in a skill-based game and 'pretend'. In UO, players would put on mage gear over their Armor to trick players into thinking their clothies for example
Recall thats the whole point of skill-based games, they lack tactical transparency. They don't hang a number over your head informing everyone in town you're a noob and please come end me
A lot really please elaborate? I played on AoC RP server which was one of how many? RP and FFA pvp do not have to go hand and hand. So no he is not correct.
No lowbies? Low skill players are no different then low level characters. You can't tell who is and who isn't a lowbie? Hmm yeah cause a pker couldn't possible just to to a low skill mob area like Shame level 1 to hunt lowbies. Who are you trying to kid?
Hiding level would not stop people high level/skill people from going into low level/skill areas to easily pwn lowbies.
Actually there are a lot of RP servers that are FFA he's correct. This goes back to MUDs.
And yes roleplayers will kill anyone lowbie or not; due to roleplaying reasons. EVE has a roleplay alliance (CVA) that is just as hard as any other. And they will kill you purely for roleplaying purposes if you pose a threat to Amarr empire. CVA has a strick KOS policy for players that joined gallente/minnie empire
And technically there is no "lowbie" if the presence of levels is not there. Vets have no way to tell you are a lowbie. A vet can put on lowbie armor in a skill-based game and 'pretend'. In UO, players would put on mage gear over their Armor to trick players into thinking their clothies for example
Recall thats the whole point of skill-based games, they lack tactical transparency. They don't hang a number over your head informing everyone in town you're a noob and please come end me
A lot really please elaborate? I played on AoC RP server which was one of how many? RP and FFA pvp do not have to go hand and hand. So no he is not correct.
No lowbies? Low skill players are no different then low level characters. You can't tell who is and who isn't a lowbie? Hmm yeah cause a pker couldn't possible just to to a low skill mob area like Shame level 1 to hunt lowbies. Who are you trying to kid?
Hiding level would not stop people high level/skill people from going into low level/skill areas to easily pwn lowbies.
You never played a skill-based game at all have you. There is no such thing as a "low skill area". Let's go with EVE since that's popular. Please do share where the low skill areas are
[edit] I must admit you are right to an extent however! If you follow......
another example from EVE, vets fly Tech I ships all the time because it costs them far less to lose. My friend, aserious old timer in EVE, got ganked by a new character the other day while he was out mining
There should be no such distinction between a vet and a lowbie if game setup right. Attach more "risk" to wearing expensive epics and you have a balance. Vets wont wear their best items everywhere they go like they're gods
Actually the first such game was Ultima Online
The 2nd was EVE Online
A close runner up for 2nd (3rd) was Star Wars Galaxies (before the NGE).
Saga of Ryzom was also built along these lines but is level based rather than purely skill tree based... though it does offer a great deal of freedom in the game.
Asheron's Call, on the Darktide server, was also similar in style to sandbox games though it was never a true sandbox it came pretty close.
There were a few others but those are the best of them... and generally the most well-known.
And, I agree, sandbox MMORPG's have really started to fade from the MMORPG genre, which is a shame, really. Considering how well both UO and EVE have done the genre really needs another solid sandbox title. I, too, am watching Darkfall but at this point have given up on any hope of it ever being released. I started considering Darkfall vaporware a very long time ago...
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
Other than the combat aspect, a game called "A tale in the desert" is exactly what you described. You start out in the middle of the sandbox (yep, it is a desert after all) with nothing but a few seeds. From there you do what you will...
I played the first year it was up. It is also one of those games that has a distinct end. Once certainly worldly criteria are met, the game will stop and reset (and no, it is not an all of a sudden type thing, you will have far warning that its coming). But the lack of combat made it boring in my opinion. That is why I didnt resub. There was so much to do... you had to litterally build everything, farm everything, harvest everything. You needed to plant seed so you can harvest the crop to make things from it (like cloth, or straw, or other things). Then, the products that you made are then final goods or used in other things. LIke the straw was needed to make bricks. But you also had to harvest mud. Build a brick mold, and a brick drying rack. Everything you needed to survive you had to do (less combat). If they added that in, I think it would be the end all game of the century!
At least you gave it a try which says something. Sounds very interesting there. Very unique and fresh
You never played a skill-based game at all have you. There is no such thing as a "low skill area". Let's go with EVE since that's popular. Please do share where the low skill areas are
Low skill area would be the higher security areas. But Eve is set up different then most games.
Where would lowbies mass in UO? Basically most dungeon level one except desard ice and maybe fire, orc forts, most of t2a (lost land), lizardman swamps, surrounding areas around towns fighting deer etc. basically anywhere a lowbie could get skill and not get one shotted. Dungeons to t2a (vesper graveyard and that dungeon that lead right into town) and moongates (only lowbies usually used them since of recalls).
Now please tell me you can't roughly figure out where to go in a skill based game to kill lowbies.
You never played a skill-based game at all have you. There is no such thing as a "low skill area". Let's go with EVE since that's popular. Please do share where the low skill areas are
Low skill area would be the higher security areas. But Eve is set up different then most games.
Where would lowbies mass in UO? Basically most dungeon level one except desard ice and maybe fire, orc forts, most of t2a (lost land), lizardman swamps, surrounding areas around towns fighting deer etc. basically anywhere a lowbie could get skill and not get one shotted. Dungeons to t2a (vesper graveyard and that dungeon that lead right into town) and moongates (only lowbies usually used them since of recalls).
Now please tell me you can't roughly figure out where to go in a skill based game to kill lowbies.
Ideally, I firmly bleieve the game should be setup like EVE. That way you can build towers anywhere you like and guildmates can all farm the surrounding region they own
lowbies should be able to do something to survive at the player run city in a good sandbox. No one should be forced to follow a linear path. Rather, you can takeover good land (like in EVE) and everyone shares the wealth
So you are correct for certian titles. I am correct in regards to a more loose sandbox (well my point of view I can be wrong!)
Eve's set up could work with a fantasy game.
[quote]Originally posted by Venger
[b]
Low skill area would be the higher security areas. But Eve is set up different then most games.
[/quote]
Hate to break this to you but there are just as many "lowbies" in EVE in 0.0 as there are in high-sec.... there are also more vets in 'high sec' than you seem to realize.
There is no 'safe space' in EVE... there is 'safer' space but you can be attacked and killed anywhere in game except inside a space station. As to lowbies? Until they join a player corporation they are very well protected for the most part if they stay in 'high sec'. As are vets that are in npc corps as well. They're not 100% safe but they are pretty well protected unless they do something insane like fly a T1 hauler with hundreds of millions of isk in assets stuffed inside it
And once a newer player joins a player corporation? Given that most player corporations either live in 0.0 or have access to it? It thus translates that a very large chunk of newer players wind up in 0.0 as well.
There is also the simple FACT that in EVE a vet is very killable... even by lower skilled players.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
But like I said Eve has a different set up then UO the other FFA pvp.
I also hear that the devs are adding in new features to help stop or lessen suicide pvp in high security sectors.
I didn't get very far into Eve but how could a lowbie in a lowbie ship possible take a vet in a well equiped ship?
But like I said Eve has a different set up then UO the other FFA pvp.
I also hear that the devs are adding in new features to help stop or lessen suicide pvp in high security sectors.
I didn't get very far into Eve but how could a lowbie in a lowbie ship possible take a vet in a well equiped ship?
newbies can get into tough little ships really quick. In my corpmate case, he was flying a Vexor I believe which has bonuses for mining. The newbie had a myrm. He tore up my friend cause my corpmate was defenseless. The newbie was supposed to be killing the rats in the area but instead turned on ym corpmate out of greed. he demanded a ransom or he would destroy my corpmate
he refused and lost his ship. it was nothing Vexor is cheap for him. But im not sure he got podded which may have set him back.
anyway....
Yeah the suicide ganking nerf I havent read up on that yet. So I can't say anything on that
But that's not a true newbie. A true newbie wouldn't have a high end ship available to them.
In this particular instance he could have killed me corpmate using a frigate. my corpmate was in a mining ship which has no weapons. He depended on the newbie for protection while he was mining and was betrayed
you can have years of experience in EVE but that will mean nothing in the wrong situation
You never played a skill-based game at all have you. There is no such thing as a "low skill area". Let's go with EVE since that's popular. Please do share where the low skill areas are
Low skill area would be the higher security areas. But Eve is set up different then most games.
Where would lowbies mass in UO? Basically most dungeon level one except desard ice and maybe fire, orc forts, most of t2a (lost land), lizardman swamps, surrounding areas around towns fighting deer etc. basically anywhere a lowbie could get skill and not get one shotted. Dungeons to t2a (vesper graveyard and that dungeon that lead right into town) and moongates (only lowbies usually used them since of recalls).
Now please tell me you can't roughly figure out where to go in a skill based game to kill lowbies.
Yeah that was a good post I made an incorrect assumption apparently. Yeah I tried to edit my original post but it was too late....
And yeah it would be great to see a fantasy MMO be something akin to EVE. I've been meaning to checkout Shadowbane but I'm assuming everyone is already max leveled when they allow players into their player run city / guild
In this particular instance he could have killed me corpmate using a frigate. my corpmate was in a mining ship which has no weapons. He depended on the newbie for protection while he was mining and was betrayed
you can have years of experience in EVE but that will mean nothing in the wrong situation
Yes but again your example shows the difference between Eve and most games.
To convert that into a UO example it would be like a 7x gm combat character and going after a 7x gm crafter. Sure the 7x gm crafter isn't a lowbie but he has no chance to defend themselves.
I enjoy pvp I would honestly really like to see ffa pvp again but there needs to be functions, systems or something that punish people for ppvp (pansy player vs player) not eliminate it. PvP should be about challenge not about how can I get the easiest kill to stroke my ego. I want absolute freedom but I was real consequences.
Yeah that was a good post I made an incorrect assumption apparently. Yeah I tried to edit my original post but it was too late....
And yeah it would be great to see a fantasy MMO be something akin to EVE. I've been meaning to checkout Shadowbane but I'm assuming everyone is already max leveled when they allow players into their player run city / guild
Well I believe it is free so you might as well. I wouldn't hold your breath tho I heard it's pretty bad that's why its free.
If you are looking for skill and consentual pvp ryzom is starting back up here soon. I've never played myself but looks interesting.
In this particular instance he could have killed me corpmate using a frigate. my corpmate was in a mining ship which has no weapons. He depended on the newbie for protection while he was mining and was betrayed
you can have years of experience in EVE but that will mean nothing in the wrong situation
Yes but again your example shows the difference between Eve and most games.
To convert that into a UO example it would be like a 7x gm combat character and going after a 7x gm crafter. Sure the 7x gm crafter isn't a lowbie but he has no chance to defend themselves.
I enjoy pvp I would honestly really like to see ffa pvp again but there needs to be functions, systems or something that punish people for ppvp (pansy player vs player) not eliminate it. PvP should be about challenge not about how can I get the easiest kill to stroke my ego. I want absolute freedom but I was real consequences.
Even in FPS games you might have a VIP or Engineer that is horrible in combat so they need protecting. Games that have roles tend to be that way. There is just no way to have 100% fair pvp unless everyone is the exact same. Even FPS games have evolved beyond that. In TF2 / BF2142, etc you have Classes whereas the weaker guys need protection
That crafter, if not interrupted, could be gathering minerals from your lands. He's a thief and he needs to be put down
The other fringe case is simply killing him for pleasure. Well, pirate is a valid role in an FFA area. If the crafter doesnt want to risk it, then he can stay in the PVE areas (safer area). This is how EVE works; it works