ya i like the pve more than the fps games but i refuse keep clicking on this moving thing for hours and days aand months to lvl i did played alot of games like that till i get the max lvls i stoped and felt so stupid for wasting my time all this days working to get the top then what thats stupid it is called games not aa hard work job the games should be just for fun make smart actions moves trick.
EVERY mmo has grind wether its sandbox or not, wether its quest based or hunting based.
If its skill based you gotta grind away using x item to get better at it etc etc.
if its based on quests then u gotta run here to do this and go back to get that over and over again.
if its hunting then you'll grind away hours in one location.
The problem here isnt grind but rather the fact that everyone is racing to the "endgame" when they start playing the mmo rather than having fun with the experience to get there. Devs don't help either since the vast majority of content is for top level people.
I remember playing Lineage 2 for 2 years and i never once complain about grind...why?
because i had fun with my guildmates from the get go, the game was so vast that simply crossing it was an adventure in itself which is a component that devs have sorely removed from many games. L2 was rough to lv in and not to mention FFA pvp made it hard when loosing 3% xp meant loosing hours and hours of game time.
Never phased me i am not a mindless drone who loves grind but thats all up to perspective. The ridiculous convos i has while me and my guildmates grinded together was a blast, every minute of it.
What im trying to get to is this: enjoy the process of reaching that endgame and if you don't its either you who is approaching things wrong or perhaps the devs have all but erased any meaningful contect except the top level stuff.
Lets get something straight here though . The only reason MMO have grind is not because it just so happens to fit into their story or gameplay, it's because it is added on purpose to keep you playing. People seem to stop buying games when they get hooked on one MMO and start paying monthly. I don't think this is good at all, it really promotes companies taking advantage of that and incorporating more and more grinds and raids to stimulate player addiction. Games should be entertainment, nothing more, not a second job instead.
Just out of curosity, do you actually play any MMORPG's? If so, what is the longest that you've played them? It seems to be that your idea is to buy the box, play for 30 days and move on to the next game (or wait for free trials, play for 10 days, then move on to the next game).
It's certainly your perrogative to do that, but if you do you're a leech, playing at other people's expense.
I have 3 lvl 80 toons in Everquest on AB and povar. If you PM me I'll link their magelo. I have L2, VG (lvl 50 bard) and played GW. So yah, I know what grind is, unfortunatly though. I don't play my EQ toons anymore, neither do I play my VG or L2 one, or at least as little as possible.
What I do understand is there is a threshold that keeps some games in the entertainment segment and puts others into the grind segment. I know this because I experienced myself when your life does not evolve around RL anymore but evolves around that AA or Lvl, or next raid or next item.
A game does not have the right to control your life. You are responsible to not let that happen yourself, but I think grind based game makes it very hard to resist this for people. Often when I talk to people who did the same thing as me they will tell me they do not enjoy the game anymore but play it purely because they want to have a certain item, they want to be where their friends are, or, they are so into the game that all enjoyment is second to their quest for progression. When a games only entitlement to success and fun is hidden behinds hours of grind it not only hurts the overall gameplay of the game but it hurts their players, and if I can change one thing about MMO, it would be letting the player control their own time and putting fun first and profits second. As long as people are at the mercy of MMO companies by preordering games, by not standing up to grind and by not speaking up when a game replaces content with monotonous tasks I will tell anyone who asks me about MMO that grind is not a viable way for MMO to go forward to become a fun form of entertainment and to fulfill that task without the need to spend hours on end to enjoy the game.
here is another exp voyage century it is not perfect but at least i was lvling afk the game gaved that option
u stand in the spawn area of a monster and make ur charcter reattack automatic and go sleep then u play and have fun wars to take a city or guilds wars with ships then with weapons that was a fun
what i am trying to say is stop making this grind games ( keep hitting monsters to lvl )
without the need to spend hours on end to enjoy the game.
If you're not enjoying the game, don't play it. Grind problem solved.
If you don't want to have to invest a lot of time to develop your character and play 'end game content' play TF2 or GW. Problem solved.
I played Everquest and enjoyed the PVE content. I never got mad at Sony because my levelling was going too slowly. If a new game launches and it takes 50 days of play time to get to max level, that's fine with me, as long as it's enjoyable. The whole concept that the game companies have some responsibility to remove slow levelling from their games is simply ridiculous. They need to make games that people enjoy, that's it.
FPS are skill and action based games. No one feels like they're grinding away at a task when they play action games. You're the first person I have ever seen to describe FPS as grind.
That's because people associate MMO's with 'grinding' and not FPS's. Regardless, it's still grinding. Just like playing WoW PVP scenarios over and over for whatever they call their PVP points is grinding.
If you surveyed the MMORPG population and asked them what they enjoy more, FPS games or PVE content in MMORPG's, you would probably be surprised what you find. It certainly wouldn't be 100% people saying 'give me shooters'.
You must be confused about what grinding is or it is different from what most consider
Grinding is being 'forced' to do a repetitious task. FPS games lack grind because they don't force you to 'grind'. A Day #1 newbie can kill a vet. This day #1 newbie doesn't have to play 300 hours to 'catch up'
By your definition Soul Calibur IV is also a grinder. That's untrue by most people's definition of course because the game doesn't require you to put in X number of hours to catch up. Sure, practice makes perfect. But your avatar has 100% all the abilities that a 5 year vet has.
MMORPGs force people to grind / run a treadmill in order to be on even footing with their peers. So, they force you to get on this treadmill for X number of hours to be competitive.
Now, an MMORPG can evade Grinding if its fast leveling with fresh content all the way (like Guild Wars). You must not have played Guild Wars- at least prophecies. You never have to do side quests even for PVE leveling. You just do the missions which are fresh, non-repeitive content to most.
Even if you hated these missions. At least when I played, you could get a lowbie escourted to the end boss. Fight him, then get autoleveled to cap.
Even if I am wrong in regards to GW PVE I know GW PVP was non-grinding. You simply join a guild and compete on the ladders. You fight fresh new opponents all the time and earn rewards. But- you already have the best gear. Because pvp characters get access to best equipment anyway
Hmn, I think that all MMO's should have grind, but not too much of it.
The reason some grinders get boring is purely because the combat is either dull, or there's not enough things to do besides, well, grinding.
Also, any game devs that happen to read this (Lol, fat chance but meh.) Please note that quest grinding is WORSE than normal grinding! (In the case that you are practically spammed with too many quests and it gets boring fast. e.g. AoC)
A "good" MMO without the huge grind is difficult to define. It depends what you like, but if it has a popular theme to keep players interested, a story that is followed through the game with proper cut-scenes and missions, learn from Guild Wars, but without the instancing.
I have a feeling Guild Wars 2 will be a great MMO to play. We'll see, but for the mean time, playing an FPS online with some friends on Vent/TS is FAR more enjoyable imo.
I agree, But I will make a prediction, Someone will post something like this "Its not about the destination but the journey," or "If we remove grind what are we going to replace it with? every MMO has some grind" or "Then don't play MMOs" or "Its people like you that makes games all about instant gratification, companies make games for the lowest common denomenator not the hardcore crowd, there will never be a game as good as UO/SWG preCU" or "Eve has no grind" or "we need a sandbox like UO/SWG preCU" or Something or other about Darkfall being the last hope
EDIT: I am already correct, people posted it while was writting, one point for me!
LOL .. you miss
"Look at Diablo, people LOVE grinding hack-n-slash"
Games can't offer content to practice different activities during 365 days before they launch a new expansion. We all should get over that already and realize that if we want the games to last, we will have to repeat proccesses over and over.
There's one thing that makes those repetitive tasks slightly different from the previous day, it's called community. You can enjoy any game if you're surrrounded with nice people to play with and against.
The best game for me will always be the one with the biggest community influence and impact, politics, drama and interaction between people.
Games can't offer content to practice different activities during 365 days before they launch a new expansion. We all should get over that already and realize that if we want the games to last, we will have to repeat proccesses over and over. There's one thing that makes those repetitive tasks slightly different from the previous day, it's called community. You can enjoy any game if you're surrrounded with nice people to play with and against. The best game for me will always be the one with the biggest community influence and impact, politics, drama and interaction between people.
Thank you. This is how I feel. I actually like my games to take a while because I pay monthly for them. I want to play a long time before I reach the finish line. I enjoy each level, not only the end. I enjoy the people I play with because in the end that is what you remember most in these games. It is about community. Unfortunately since WoW that is one area in MMORPGs I have found to be lacking.
Games can't offer content to practice different activities during 365 days before they launch a new expansion. We all should get over that already and realize that if we want the games to last, we will have to repeat proccesses over and over. There's one thing that makes those repetitive tasks slightly different from the previous day, it's called community. You can enjoy any game if you're surrrounded with nice people to play with and against. The best game for me will always be the one with the biggest community influence and impact, politics, drama and interaction between people.
Thank you. This is how I feel. I actually like my games to take a while because I pay monthly for them. I want to play a long time before I reach the finish line. I enjoy each level, not only the end. I enjoy the people I play with because in the end that is what you remember most in these games. It is about community. Unfortunately since WoW that is one area in MMORPGs I have found to be lacking.
yes so many mmo only aim for its players to play for 6 months nad leave...and come back for the expansions.
id love an mmo where they had in mind its players staying there for a year or two..
I do not mind the grind as long as it is not repetitive and can be made interesting. I do agree with on that point and click thing tho lol, i tried them and i just cannot make myself like them and that is the sole reason i could not continue playing certain otherwise very entertaining games. Goodluck on your search for that MMO
Games can't offer content to practice different activities during 365 days before they launch a new expansion....
This is true generally speaking but it is not true for rare anomalies such as Second Life where the consumer has added so much content the developers claim this data could cover an entire state in the U.S. measured in miles or whatever...
Just couldn't resist making an exception there.
The other case is merely giving players more tools to generate content for each other. Look at what Cryptic is doing. Now gamers can create their own missions for each other. If they allow players to earn XP and rewards in these missions (in which I seriously doubt but IF)- then players themselves are generating content for each other
This is how you escape grind- by letting players generate unique content for each other. However, I predict fail if these player generated quests do not provide XP.unfortunately this can also backfire- players setup missions that can be easily farmed. So players find themselves grinding because thats simply the fastest way to level.
Such is the chaos that Levels sew into games. they turn gamers into foaming XP farmers
In fact, a game could have 9 millions of quests, and it would still be a grinder, a quest grinder for that matter.
I stated that I consider grinds as repetitive tasks a game might lead you to do, wether those quests are generated by players or not, the grind is there, and you'll be doing quests over and over, and most of them will feel identical to the ones you completed a pair of days ago.
One thing to consider is that the grind might be hidden, and hidden to a point where you only notice it once you're already absorbed into the game. That's probably what companies should approach in order to guarantee the player's money for months and months, but that also requires a strong endgame system, which many games fail to provide.
There hasnt been a grind game in years , eq1/L2 were the last 2 REAL grinds ( all those f2p mmo's dont count), and one good dungeon grind group with good people/friends in Eq1 was more fun than anything the last 5 years of mmo's has hashed out . wow, eq2 ,Vg , Lotro , aoc no REAL grind in any of them you quest till your eyes bleed and your max level in a month bitching couse you passed the whole game up excpecting the END of the game to keep you entertained .
I would love to see a new GROUP based grind game since there hasnt been one in forever ,
Long term exp grouping with friends crawling through a nice dungeon looking for named etc like back in eq1 is much better than the bullshit quest and leave groups you see in every mmo in the last few years.
So you want the games to be like single player games where you beat them in a day or two and then you're done?? Most MMOs are built for more of a long term gaming experience.....If everyone was instant max level then you have to come up with some other kind of goal to keep people playing......I have played on private servers wehre you were immediately max level.....I never played any of them longer than a week......Many of us want goals in the game and often those goals are geared toward raising skills or levels so we get better.....Also what is grinding to you may not be grinding to me.....I have heard many complain in games where it took less than a month to hit max level with even casual play......Heck when I played EQ1 in 2000 it could take a month to gain a level or two.......Too many players are just spoiled rotten......If you want games with no grind they are out there but theres a reason why few play them.
There hasnt been a grind game in years , eq1/L2 were the last 2 REAL grinds ( all those f2p mmo's dont count), and one good dungeon grind group with good people/friends in Eq1 was more fun than anything the last 5 years of mmo's has hashed out . wow, eq2 ,Vg , Lotro , aoc no REAL grind in any of them you quest till your eyes bleed and your max level in a month bitching couse you passed the whole game up excpecting the END of the game to keep you entertained . I would love to see a new GROUP based grind game since there hasnt been one in forever , Long term exp grouping with friends crawling through a nice dungeon looking for named etc like back in eq1 is much better than the bullshit quest and leave groups you see in every mmo in the last few years.
I completely agree. I know EQ was a grindfest, but if you were involved in a good guild, it didn't matter. You could always find something to do and many friends/groups stuck together for hours on end exploring dungeons or trying to get that one named mob for the epic quest.
Comments
ya i like the pve more than the fps games but i refuse keep clicking on this moving thing for hours and days aand months to lvl i did played alot of games like that till i get the max lvls i stoped and felt so stupid for wasting my time all this days working to get the top then what thats stupid it is called games not aa hard work job the games should be just for fun make smart actions moves trick.
EVERY mmo has grind wether its sandbox or not, wether its quest based or hunting based.
If its skill based you gotta grind away using x item to get better at it etc etc.
if its based on quests then u gotta run here to do this and go back to get that over and over again.
if its hunting then you'll grind away hours in one location.
The problem here isnt grind but rather the fact that everyone is racing to the "endgame" when they start playing the mmo rather than having fun with the experience to get there. Devs don't help either since the vast majority of content is for top level people.
I remember playing Lineage 2 for 2 years and i never once complain about grind...why?
because i had fun with my guildmates from the get go, the game was so vast that simply crossing it was an adventure in itself which is a component that devs have sorely removed from many games. L2 was rough to lv in and not to mention FFA pvp made it hard when loosing 3% xp meant loosing hours and hours of game time.
Never phased me i am not a mindless drone who loves grind but thats all up to perspective. The ridiculous convos i has while me and my guildmates grinded together was a blast, every minute of it.
What im trying to get to is this: enjoy the process of reaching that endgame and if you don't its either you who is approaching things wrong or perhaps the devs have all but erased any meaningful contect except the top level stuff.
Just out of curosity, do you actually play any MMORPG's? If so, what is the longest that you've played them? It seems to be that your idea is to buy the box, play for 30 days and move on to the next game (or wait for free trials, play for 10 days, then move on to the next game).
It's certainly your perrogative to do that, but if you do you're a leech, playing at other people's expense.
I have 3 lvl 80 toons in Everquest on AB and povar. If you PM me I'll link their magelo. I have L2, VG (lvl 50 bard) and played GW. So yah, I know what grind is, unfortunatly though. I don't play my EQ toons anymore, neither do I play my VG or L2 one, or at least as little as possible.
What I do understand is there is a threshold that keeps some games in the entertainment segment and puts others into the grind segment. I know this because I experienced myself when your life does not evolve around RL anymore but evolves around that AA or Lvl, or next raid or next item.
A game does not have the right to control your life. You are responsible to not let that happen yourself, but I think grind based game makes it very hard to resist this for people. Often when I talk to people who did the same thing as me they will tell me they do not enjoy the game anymore but play it purely because they want to have a certain item, they want to be where their friends are, or, they are so into the game that all enjoyment is second to their quest for progression. When a games only entitlement to success and fun is hidden behinds hours of grind it not only hurts the overall gameplay of the game but it hurts their players, and if I can change one thing about MMO, it would be letting the player control their own time and putting fun first and profits second. As long as people are at the mercy of MMO companies by preordering games, by not standing up to grind and by not speaking up when a game replaces content with monotonous tasks I will tell anyone who asks me about MMO that grind is not a viable way for MMO to go forward to become a fun form of entertainment and to fulfill that task without the need to spend hours on end to enjoy the game.
x
here is another exp voyage century it is not perfect but at least i was lvling afk the game gaved that option
u stand in the spawn area of a monster and make ur charcter reattack automatic and go sleep then u play and have fun wars to take a city or guilds wars with ships then with weapons that was a fun
what i am trying to say is stop making this grind games ( keep hitting monsters to lvl )
think about new types . plz give ideas
without the need to spend hours on end to enjoy the game.
If you're not enjoying the game, don't play it. Grind problem solved.
If you don't want to have to invest a lot of time to develop your character and play 'end game content' play TF2 or GW. Problem solved.
I played Everquest and enjoyed the PVE content. I never got mad at Sony because my levelling was going too slowly. If a new game launches and it takes 50 days of play time to get to max level, that's fine with me, as long as it's enjoyable. The whole concept that the game companies have some responsibility to remove slow levelling from their games is simply ridiculous. They need to make games that people enjoy, that's it.
i like grind. thats why i play lineage 2.
not everyone has the same tastes you know.
just becuse you do not like it does not meant they have to stop makeing quality grind games..
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
FPS are skill and action based games. No one feels like they're grinding away at a task when they play action games. You're the first person I have ever seen to describe FPS as grind.
That's because people associate MMO's with 'grinding' and not FPS's. Regardless, it's still grinding. Just like playing WoW PVP scenarios over and over for whatever they call their PVP points is grinding.
If you surveyed the MMORPG population and asked them what they enjoy more, FPS games or PVE content in MMORPG's, you would probably be surprised what you find. It certainly wouldn't be 100% people saying 'give me shooters'.
You must be confused about what grinding is or it is different from what most consider
Grinding is being 'forced' to do a repetitious task. FPS games lack grind because they don't force you to 'grind'. A Day #1 newbie can kill a vet. This day #1 newbie doesn't have to play 300 hours to 'catch up'
By your definition Soul Calibur IV is also a grinder. That's untrue by most people's definition of course because the game doesn't require you to put in X number of hours to catch up. Sure, practice makes perfect. But your avatar has 100% all the abilities that a 5 year vet has.
MMORPGs force people to grind / run a treadmill in order to be on even footing with their peers. So, they force you to get on this treadmill for X number of hours to be competitive.
Now, an MMORPG can evade Grinding if its fast leveling with fresh content all the way (like Guild Wars). You must not have played Guild Wars- at least prophecies. You never have to do side quests even for PVE leveling. You just do the missions which are fresh, non-repeitive content to most.
Even if you hated these missions. At least when I played, you could get a lowbie escourted to the end boss. Fight him, then get autoleveled to cap.
Even if I am wrong in regards to GW PVE I know GW PVP was non-grinding. You simply join a guild and compete on the ladders. You fight fresh new opponents all the time and earn rewards. But- you already have the best gear. Because pvp characters get access to best equipment anyway
i cant tell anyone to stop making things i just saying my opionon and wanted to hear other ppl opionons
and ideas .
But you're an insomniac SgtFrog. =d
But you're an insomniac SgtFrog. =d
hmm lol how did you know that
lol
really how did you hehe..?
im kinda scared
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
Hmn, I think that all MMO's should have grind, but not too much of it.
The reason some grinders get boring is purely because the combat is either dull, or there's not enough things to do besides, well, grinding.
Also, any game devs that happen to read this (Lol, fat chance but meh.) Please note that quest grinding is WORSE than normal grinding! (In the case that you are practically spammed with too many quests and it gets boring fast. e.g. AoC)
A "good" MMO without the huge grind is difficult to define. It depends what you like, but if it has a popular theme to keep players interested, a story that is followed through the game with proper cut-scenes and missions, learn from Guild Wars, but without the instancing.
I have a feeling Guild Wars 2 will be a great MMO to play. We'll see, but for the mean time, playing an FPS online with some friends on Vent/TS is FAR more enjoyable imo.
I prefer combat experience grinding like classic EQ over linear quest experience games like WoW any day.
LOL .. you miss
"Look at Diablo, people LOVE grinding hack-n-slash"
Games can't offer content to practice different activities during 365 days before they launch a new expansion. We all should get over that already and realize that if we want the games to last, we will have to repeat proccesses over and over.
There's one thing that makes those repetitive tasks slightly different from the previous day, it's called community. You can enjoy any game if you're surrrounded with nice people to play with and against.
The best game for me will always be the one with the biggest community influence and impact, politics, drama and interaction between people.
Thank you. This is how I feel. I actually like my games to take a while because I pay monthly for them. I want to play a long time before I reach the finish line. I enjoy each level, not only the end. I enjoy the people I play with because in the end that is what you remember most in these games. It is about community. Unfortunately since WoW that is one area in MMORPGs I have found to be lacking.
Thank you. This is how I feel. I actually like my games to take a while because I pay monthly for them. I want to play a long time before I reach the finish line. I enjoy each level, not only the end. I enjoy the people I play with because in the end that is what you remember most in these games. It is about community. Unfortunately since WoW that is one area in MMORPGs I have found to be lacking.
yes so many mmo only aim for its players to play for 6 months nad leave...and come back for the expansions.
id love an mmo where they had in mind its players staying there for a year or two..
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
I do not mind the grind as long as it is not repetitive and can be made interesting. I do agree with on that point and click thing tho lol, i tried them and i just cannot make myself like them and that is the sole reason i could not continue playing certain otherwise very entertaining games. Goodluck on your search for that MMO
This is true generally speaking but it is not true for rare anomalies such as Second Life where the consumer has added so much content the developers claim this data could cover an entire state in the U.S. measured in miles or whatever...
Just couldn't resist making an exception there.
The other case is merely giving players more tools to generate content for each other. Look at what Cryptic is doing. Now gamers can create their own missions for each other. If they allow players to earn XP and rewards in these missions (in which I seriously doubt but IF)- then players themselves are generating content for each other
This is how you escape grind- by letting players generate unique content for each other. However, I predict fail if these player generated quests do not provide XP.unfortunately this can also backfire- players setup missions that can be easily farmed. So players find themselves grinding because thats simply the fastest way to level.
Such is the chaos that Levels sew into games. they turn gamers into foaming XP farmers
In fact, a game could have 9 millions of quests, and it would still be a grinder, a quest grinder for that matter.
I stated that I consider grinds as repetitive tasks a game might lead you to do, wether those quests are generated by players or not, the grind is there, and you'll be doing quests over and over, and most of them will feel identical to the ones you completed a pair of days ago.
One thing to consider is that the grind might be hidden, and hidden to a point where you only notice it once you're already absorbed into the game. That's probably what companies should approach in order to guarantee the player's money for months and months, but that also requires a strong endgame system, which many games fail to provide.
i meant the grind games that all u can do to lvl is to keep hitting the monsters for months
and i asked for new ideas thats makes us only enjoy the game
There hasnt been a grind game in years , eq1/L2 were the last 2 REAL grinds ( all those f2p mmo's dont count), and one good dungeon grind group with good people/friends in Eq1 was more fun than anything the last 5 years of mmo's has hashed out . wow, eq2 ,Vg , Lotro , aoc no REAL grind in any of them you quest till your eyes bleed and your max level in a month bitching couse you passed the whole game up excpecting the END of the game to keep you entertained .
I would love to see a new GROUP based grind game since there hasnt been one in forever ,
Long term exp grouping with friends crawling through a nice dungeon looking for named etc like back in eq1 is much better than the bullshit quest and leave groups you see in every mmo in the last few years.
So you want the games to be like single player games where you beat them in a day or two and then you're done?? Most MMOs are built for more of a long term gaming experience.....If everyone was instant max level then you have to come up with some other kind of goal to keep people playing......I have played on private servers wehre you were immediately max level.....I never played any of them longer than a week......Many of us want goals in the game and often those goals are geared toward raising skills or levels so we get better.....Also what is grinding to you may not be grinding to me.....I have heard many complain in games where it took less than a month to hit max level with even casual play......Heck when I played EQ1 in 2000 it could take a month to gain a level or two.......Too many players are just spoiled rotten......If you want games with no grind they are out there but theres a reason why few play them.
I completely agree. I know EQ was a grindfest, but if you were involved in a good guild, it didn't matter. You could always find something to do and many friends/groups stuck together for hours on end exploring dungeons or trying to get that one named mob for the epic quest.