Actually it's a perfectly apt comparison. especially when you look at klimt's early work as compared to his later work. There is obviously a difference. People who prefer a more classical art style WOULD like his early work. His work has nothing classical about it, if someone prefer classical art style for the philosofy even romantic art will out of the devine classical beauty concept, expressionism will be tottaly off. Of course, someone can understand and enjoy all art movements, but it seems that you are using classical art style like a term to reflect more "conventional and proportional art" and not classical as a movement where even the intense and expressive but relative beauty of romantism would be almost heretic. This is very common these days where a lot of poeple think that Wagner, Chopin and Schubert are related to classical music, when it is not, all of them are romantics. So the idea that someone enjoy early Klimt´s work based on classical concepts is totally wrong. Having said that, whether or not people like these works or not, it's all about what they consider good art or pleasing. Just like whether or not people like how the rendering of the LOTRO avatars is dependent on their taste. Sure it might be a somewhat extreme comparison as you wouldn't find such a wide range in styles comparing Pollack to say a Rembrandt or a Vermeer, there is still a wide enough gap that someone can look at the avatars of EQ II or WoW or LOTRO or Lineage 2 or Conan and realize that there are so many ways to make the representation. No one should look to an artistic expression in the same way they look to a character in a game or clothes, wallpapers. It is a sad sign when this happens, because it shows people only cares about what they want to consume and not care about philosofy, expression and culture. LOTRO went for a realistic style which I highly applaud. However I feel a game like Conan was better able to capture what actually fit in the world as opposed to LOTRO which didn't go far enough. Yes I agree with you, art style in Age of Conan is more coese and expressive in a overall aspect when we talk about a primitive feeling and a "life like" artstyle, not realism as an art movement but as realistic/fantasy style.
I will tell you why is not a perfectly comparison, but more of a superficial comparison.
Avatars in a video game have only one purpose, to please and immerse the player in the game/lore.
Art is not there only just to please, this is the common mistake.
People think art is decorative, but art is not there only to please, it is there to express, express ideas, concepts and feelings.
If you judge art only for a taste point of view you will forget all the concept of the art movement, from the romantic and intense art of Aivazovsky to Schiele´s expressionism, art is not there only to be pleasing for the eyes.
There is a reason for the uglyness, the irreality and expression in art related to a movement/philosofy, from paiting to music, we cant say the same about avatars in a MMO.
Most of people today know nothing about art movements and concept, this is why most of people judge art just for the "pleasing" aspect... this is shallow and we cant compare to simple avatars in a MMO that have only 2 reasons to be there, fit the lore, fit the visual game universe and be attractive to the player.
Actually it's a perfectly apt comparison. especially when you look at klimt's early work as compared to his later work. There is obviously a difference. People who prefer a more classical art style WOULD like his early work. His work has nothing classical about it, if someone prefer classical art style for the philosofy even romantic art will out of the devine classical beauty concept, expressionism will be tottaly off. Of course, someone can understand and enjoy all art movements, but it seems that you are using classical art style like a term to reflect more "conventional and proportional art" and not classical as a movement where even the intense and expressive but relative beauty of romantism would be almost heretic. This is very common these days where a lot of poeple think that Wagner, Mozart and Chopin are related to classical music, when it is not, all of them are romantics. So the idea that someone enjoy early Klimt´s work based on classical concepts is totally wrong. Having said that, whether or not people like these works or not, it's all about what they consider good art or pleasing. Just like whether or not people like how the rendering of the LOTRO avatars is dependent on their taste. Sure it might be a somewhat extreme comparison as you wouldn't find such a wide range in styles comparing Pollack to say a Rembrandt or a Vermeer, there is still a wide enough gap that someone can look at the avatars of EQ II or WoW or LOTRO or Lineage 2 or Conan and realize that there are so many ways to make the representation. No one should look to an artistic expression in the same way they look to a character in a game or clothes, wallpapers. It is a sad sign when this happens, because it shows people only cares about what they want to consume and not care about philosofy, expression and culture. LOTRO went for a realistic style which I highly applaud. However I feel a game like Conan was better able to capture what actually fit in the world as opposed to LOTRO which didn't go far enough. Yes I agree with you, art style in Age of Conan is more coese and expressive in a overall aspect when we talk about a primitive feeling and a "life like" artstyle, not realism as an art movement but as realistic/fantasy style.
I will tell you why is not a perfectly comparison, but more of a superficial comparison.
Avatars in a video game have only one purpose, to please and immerse the player in the game/lore.
Art is not there only just to please, this is the common mistake.
People think art is decorative, but art is not there only to please, it is there to express, express ideas, concepts and feelings.
If you judge art only for a taste point of view you will forget all the concept of the art movement, from the romantic and intense art of Aivazovsky to Schiele´s expressionism, art is not there only to be pleasing for the eyes.
There is a reason for the uglyness, the irreality and expression in art related to a movement/philosofy, from paiting to music, we cant say the same about avatars in a MMO.
Most of people today know nothing about art movements and concept, this is why most of people judge art just for the "pleasing" aspect... this is shallow and we cant compare to simple avatars in a MMO that have only 2 reasons to be there, fit the lore, fit the visual game universe and be attractive to the player.
...
Yes that is certainly true "classical" like one would lump together Chopin with Dowland with Danielpour. However, even though I am actually a composer, I consider it completely acceptable for people to say "classical" to describe such music. otherwise I would be a snob. Pointing out to someone that Rachaminov is romantic when they refer to it as classical would be a bit prissy in my opinion as I understand exactly what they are trying to say. To say that someone is shallow because they like something based upon "I like it" is elitist. I hate elitists. I am quite educated and I would never consider someone for being "less than" or shallow because they see things given their current education or experience. Especially because it is insulting and doesn't allow that they might eventually dig deeper "just because". I have first hand knowledge of an older gentleman who did just that. I believe he was an electrician. Never once listened to "classical" music when I gave hime a renaissance piece to learn on the guitar. Had I been a priss I could have corrected him whenever he said "classcial" as opposed to rennaissance but I find that that really isn't the high road. Long story "longer" he ended up going to a music camp to learn more about music.
I don't feel that one has to consider all the myriad ways that one might appreciate art when, if someone just "likes it" then that is good enough for me. I find that the deconstruction of art and music and theater in order to create a sort of caste system of "them" and "us" is probably part of the reason there is such a division among people and their feeling towards the arts. Like the individual who once said to me that nothing less than shakespeare ever touched his eyes. Oh please!
but my point remains. You might consider that avatars have only one purpose (isn't that shallow?) but I maintain that they are there to inspire those who desire a deeper connection to the game world. I think this is why one finds such a clamor to have more customization. Oh sure, one is not going to see all the details of an avatar, whether they have a tatoo or that the brows are furrowed "just so" but the player who cares knows it's there and that is enough in my opinion.
So too is the opinion that the LOTRO avatars don't quite get us there. At least for some. I know that I have spent a considerable amount of time just finding the right look for the outfit system with the right dye as I want somethign to be proud of as my avatar makes its way through middle earth.
So again, some might like one type of art (avatar) and some might like another. For me and many others, the avatars of LOTRO just don't do it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The waists are too narrow and the waist line is too low. Hips seem non-existant. They need to take a look at Da Vinci's Vitruvian man.
I don't really have a big problem with that. My biggest problem is just how they don't fit in with the background, it looks really like 2 different artist worked with the screen, one did the background and the other the characters.
It is off course important that both the background and characters fit with the lore but they also have to fit with eachother.
It wouldnt hurt either if they looked a litle more real and particular the armour looked better but it is that they look so out of place that I don't like.
Yes that is certainly true "classical" like one would lump together Chopin with Dowland with Danielpour. However, even though I am actually a composer, I consider it completely acceptable for people to say "classical" to describe such music. otherwise I would be a snob. I dont blame people that say "classical" to all erudite music, it is not their fault, it is how the music and expression is comercialized these days, Im pretty sure if someone who already enjoy Chopin, Prokofiev, Khachaturian etc had knowledge about the full art movement they are in, this person would enjoy it even more, this is not a snob posture. Pointing out to someone that Rachaminov is romantic when they refer to it as classical would be a bit prissy in my opinion as I understand exactly what they are trying to say. To say that someone is shallow because they like something based upon "I like it" is elitist. I hate elitists. I am quite educated and I would never consider someone for being "less than" or shallow because they see things given their current education or experience. Especially because it is insulting and doesn't allow that they might eventually dig deeper "just because". I never said that someone that doesnt understand the difference is shallow, but I belive people that have this knowledge and dont express it is wrong, an elitist posture would be a posture of someone that doesnt want to share what he knows. I have first hand knowledge of an older gentleman who did just that. I believe he was an electrician. Never once listened to "classical" music when I gave hime a renaissance piece to learn on the guitar. Had I been a priss I could have corrected him whenever he said "classcial" as opposed to rennaissance but I find that that really isn't the high road. Long story "longer" he ended up going to a music camp to learn more about music. I live in Brazil, most people here is poor and does not has any sense of culture, and we can blame the government and how things are in Brazil for that not exacly the people, so I understand what you mean. Sure, you should not corrected him, but it would be nice if you had talked with him about the difference and about music/art movements, I bet he would be pretty excited about it, this is by no means an elitist posture. I don't feel that one has to consider all the myriad ways that one might appreciate art when, if someone just "likes it" then that is good enough for me. I find that the deconstruction of art and music and theater in order to create a sort of caste system of "them" and "us" is probably part of the reason there is such a division among people and their feeling towards the arts. Like the individual who once said to me that nothing less than shakespeare ever touched his eyes. Oh please! but my point remains. You might consider that avatars have only one purpose (isn't that shallow?) but I maintain that they are there to inspire those who desire a deeper connection to the game world. I think this is why one finds such a clamor to have more customization. Oh sure, one is not going to see all the details of an avatar, whether they have a tatoo or that the brows are furrowed "just so" but the player who cares knows it's there and that is enough in my opinion. As I said, it nos not only one purpose, as I belive they are there to express the lore/ingame world, please the player, and immerse the player, still, even with more reasons there is no comparison between art movements, as most MMOs are not trying to express a chain of thoughts, concepts and philosofies with their characters, even if in the end we can find a couple of Romantic ascpets as the total immersion and escapism. So too is the opinion that the LOTRO avatars don't quite get us there. At least for some. I know that I have spent a considerable amount of time just finding the right look for the outfit system with the right dye as I want somethign to be proud of as my avatar makes its way through middle earth. So again, some might like one type of art (avatar) and some might like another. For me and many others, the avatars of LOTRO just don't do it. What is sad about Lotro is, the landscapes are very good and expressive, it bothers me the fact that they did such a good job in the landscapes but were not able to express the same quality in the characters, the gap is so big that it is hard to understand their reasons.
Edit.
Your comparison made sense Sovrath and I agree with some of your points, I just dont belive any art expression should be used only to express and compare personal taste, as they are much, much more than that, as someone that I belive also enjoy/work with art, you may disagree with me, but I think you understand my point of view and my reasons.
You only misunderstood my points when you saw them as an elitist posture, what is not accurate as I belive everyone should have acess to art and information about art.
Dudes, cut out some of the old quotes when you are answering a post, otherwise soon evry post takes up a full page. What the last guy wrote is enough to get what you are answering too...
And just for the record Mozart is hardly a romantic composer -- he was deeply entrenched in the heart of the classical erra musically but that is a discussion for another another thread.....not to mention beyond the point that was being made hehe
However, to pull the thread back on track =P
It definately appears that the LOTRO avatars are a strong deterrent to a high ehough percentage of gamers that it ought to be a huge concern to turbine. I honestly don't think anyone is of the opinion that they are amazing but most of us who play extremely regularly don't seem to notice the issues being mentioned -- apart from my earlier critique I don't notice the issues with the avatars and the environment many keep mentioning, however that could be that I'm extremely used to them after having played the game nearly daily for hours at a time since early in to Beta hehe. That could also be an issue for Turbine -- I can't remember what my initial reaction was to the avatars to be honest -- I was just so excited to be logging in to LOTRO at the time (i'd been tracking the game for 3 years so I"m a bit obsessed).
I honestly don't think anyone actually playing the game would take issue with the avatars being overhauled though as long as it was an improvement and didn't break any existing gameplay. For those folks who are reluctant to play this game simply because of the avatars it's a real shame because the game is extremely fun and has a lot of potential.
On a side note -- I still have yet to see a screenshot from AoC that shows me just how *wonderful* the graphics apparently are. I really just don't see it -- all the screenshots i see from WAR are amazing though and graphically that game is leagues beyond all of them IMO. But graphics aren't enough to get me to switch games and LOTRO still has some stunning visuals! Yes the majority of them are landscapes etc but still they are there and very much worth seeing.
And just for the record Mozart is hardly a romantic composer --
There is a discussion about that to tell the truth, the same happens with Beethoven music (even more) as he is present in both eras, both composers even for their time are related to classic, but most of their approach went beyond in techinical aspects and expression, not closed to the classical patterns, of course, the confusion was my fault as I didnt expressed it well in my text, as sometimes I forget to use some words in english and should have used an accurated description why I mentioned him.(not my mother tongue, edited to avoid confusion).
Something similar happens when we talk about how romantism started, if from the Sturm und Drang or from the french perspective and the discussion about the start of dodecaphonia.
Again, about the characters and the gameplay, Lotro as a game is not for everyone,(like all mmos) but it is not bad for sure.
Edit to add more...
About the romantism and Mozart "however: in 1810 E.T.A. Hoffmann called Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven the three "Romantic Composers", and Ludwig Spohr used the term "good Romantic style" to apply to parts of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony"
The reason Im talking about is just because it is an interesting subject, off topic I know but just to be clear it is not with the purpose to just argue with you musicman... anyway, I think you find this kind of thing interesting too... but I agree this is not the place to discuss it.
They're just nasty and they don't move right and it's hard to explain it without showing it to you in person but they just feel very off. I want to play on because I want to see what the player housing has to offer but frigging the character models are stopping me currently.
No offence m8 and this isn't intended as a flame but how long have you been playing exactly? you need to be level 15 and have around one gold to get a player house (small but still housing), Character models are pretty good compared to a lot of others m8.
PS: i aint a fanboy or anything, i quit the game 6 months ago after getting 2 characters to level 50 and experiencing almost everything in game, i got bored....
I've always described the avatars in LoTRO as "paper-dollish."
It's a great game, and I love Tolkien's work and his world. But even as a fan, I'm willing to admit that the character animations are a bit off.
WoW's gameplay and stylized, cartoon-ish graphics don't appeal to some, but one thing Blizzard did nail was the animaions and the way the avatars interact with the terrain and structures within the world.
It's never a bad thing to want the game one plays to be better- if the OP didn't like the game, he (or she) wouldn't care enough to post.
_____________________________ "Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit"
Actually I knew what you were referring too but I've always disagreed with those discourses
Mozart's works do not have nearly enough chromaticism, they too rigidly in forms that rely on Symmetry etc. Right down to the chord structures -- you compare his works to that of Chopin, Liszt, Wagner (even though later in the romantic era) Schumann and you won't find much similarity at all honestly.
Actually if you take every characteristic of classicism in music it applies directly to Mozart -- most modern scholars have dismissed the notion of Mozart having a tendency towards Romanticism -- Beethoven on the other hand is considered the cross over/father of romanticism (musically). His later works he tried the chromaticism and romantic leans theoreticially romanticism was offering but he too had a hard time breaking out of the rigidness of classical form.
Classical music was a direct response to the extreme ornamentation of the baroque era and therefore focus'd on symmetry, pure melody and pure tone (major over simplification here, but this is a serious digression from the thread) -- Mozart's operas, wind concertos etc were considered to be the ultimate models of Belle Cante -- a very classical concept especially in opera.
So again not to get overly in to it but the sources you are quoting and the discussions you are eluding to are dubious at best -- and many scholars have dismissed them all together. That statement from 1810 doesn't really refer to Romanticism as it's defined in today's scholarship either -- it was a newer term at that time and in my opinion they weren't referring to style but to heart felt response to the music written by the 3 masters.
A thread discussing LotrOs character models and classical music = Pure win!
I hope Turibne will do some seriouse work with the models and animations since it seems alot people have a problem with them! The danger is that thoose of us who likes them will hate the new ones instead...
If WoW = The Beatles and WAR = Led Zeppelin Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
They're just nasty and they don't move right and it's hard to explain it without showing it to you in person but they just feel very off. I want to play on because I want to see what the player housing has to offer but frigging the character models are stopping me currently.
No offence m8 and this isn't intended as a flame but how long have you been playing exactly? you need to be level 15 and have around one gold to get a player house (small but still housing), Character models are pretty good compared to a lot of others m8.
PS: i aint a fanboy or anything, i quit the game 6 months ago after getting 2 characters to level 50 and experiencing almost everything in game, i got bored....
What game has more ugly character models than LOTRO? (out of the AAA MMOs not Runescape or some shit like that)
They're just nasty and they don't move right and it's hard to explain it without showing it to you in person but they just feel very off. I want to play on because I want to see what the player housing has to offer but frigging the character models are stopping me currently.
No offence m8 and this isn't intended as a flame but how long have you been playing exactly? you need to be level 15 and have around one gold to get a player house (small but still housing), Character models are pretty good compared to a lot of others m8.
PS: i aint a fanboy or anything, i quit the game 6 months ago after getting 2 characters to level 50 and experiencing almost everything in game, i got bored....
What game has more ugly character models than LOTRO? (out of the AAA MMOs not Runescape or some shit like that)
In my opinion EQ2 and Vanguard have much uglier characters.. WAR and WoW is on par and AoC is slightly better... (if comparaing AAA fantasy MMOs)
If WoW = The Beatles and WAR = Led Zeppelin Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
Originally posted by Papadam In my opinion EQ2 and Vanguard have much uglier characters.. WAR and WoW is on par and AoC is slightly better... (if comparaing AAA fantasy MMOs)
Eq2 don't in my opinion but even if you think so the models of EQ2 and Vanguard still does fit better in with the background than LOTROs. I am afraid I got rid of all my EQ2 screenshots however.
EQ2 is also in need of a char revamp, it have been promised a long time. Still, look on a EQ2 screen and see how the armor fits onthe character, in LOTRO it looks like the armours are extremly thin and tight, nothing that would work in real combat.
Wow and WARs armours are often impratical but they still looks like they fit the character. And WARs character are made to look like the tabletop figurines and they do that, I would also not call them good looking but that's just a matter of taste.
Anyways, the main question here is: Would more people play the game if they made the characters and armour looks better?
I think so.
And would the current players protest if they did it? Probably a few but many would like it.
Character models make and break a game for me because Vanguard has terrible models and even the new ones are horrible and you can tell they arn't motion captured so they look nasty.
Maybe Turbine should add 10 foot swords and 12 foot wide shoulder pads. Then make all the character grotesquely out of proportion to the point of being cartoony. Then they could re-skin all the characters with flashy colors so they look like a bunch of clowns on steroids just the way Tolkien would have wanted it.
Don't be upset because LOTR is your favorite game. I am fan too but character models are an eyesore compared to the surrounding scenery.
Character models, textures, animations and armor models are all seperate issues.
Character models are just the actual model of the characteritself. This does notinclude the texturing or the armor.
Animations are the way the character moves. Not how it looks without movement.
The armor looking like is pasted on the model has nothing to do wit the charachter model. The armor has to do with the models used when making the armor and how it attached to the character model.
I say this because some people seem to be mixing the issue up.
The subjectof the thread is horrible charcter models. None of the rest although maybe the OP was confused and is lumping it all together. Like I said I think the models are ok...they could be better but what couldn't? it is no game breaker for me.
I agree the armor looks pasted on. Again though this is a seperate issue than character models. and i do wish they would fix this. Most likely they are using minimal models for the armor or they are plain out just changing textures with no actual armor models being attached.
Bear in mind though that improving this stuff will require more system resources. They need to balance that and since many players are used to what they already have, bumping things up could lose existing players. VG and AOC went the high end graphics route and look where that got them....buggy as hell and a limited population. Retooling some of this stuff is actually a major undertaking and not to be done lightly. Redoing how the armor attaches to the models make mean they have to retexture all their armor....
I like my avatar, the hair sucks but i like bald any way. I think it would be really hard to make good, realistic hair, imagine one day. Each strand of hair will be rendered individually all influenced by light and wind. Not saying in lotro but one day in games.
Agree with op...am currently playing WAR and though its a decent game it doesnt feel alive and vibrant like LOTRO. I really enjoyed my time with LOTRO especially the scenery, little hobbit homes, ability to smoke a pipe play an instrument etc..really made the game feel warm and interesting.
That being said the character models were a big reason I quit.
If they revamped the character and armor this game would blow the others out of the water. If they added meaningful pvp it would dominate the MMO market.
Thinking of returning now that I saw the Mines of Moria info. But character models of the game are still making me wary.
I cant put my finger on it, but the elves smushed faces....wierd skin tight clothes, armor etc...they just didn't give me the sense of pride in my character that i was looking for.
The game itself runs smooth, much smoother than WAR and will probably give it another try. But in all likelihood wont continue playing for any long periond if the characters arn't fixed.
Not to mention horrible head gear for champions. Seriously what the hell is up with that? character models are ugly enough and to make things worse armor sets are even more horrible. My lvl 44 champ has never toggled his helm appearance because since lvl 1 all of them are ugly and weird as hell.
When I seen the Legendary item models I puke inside my mouth a little. True story.
For example, Wig-feld cloack is in legendary category. Design contest winner and it looks great. And I don't think you saw all the legendaries coming with Moria.
And according from yours posts, you are not pleased with any of the mmorpgs right now. Just trolling?
Getalife ... champ helm from rift armor looks nice.
Comments
I will tell you why is not a perfectly comparison, but more of a superficial comparison.
Avatars in a video game have only one purpose, to please and immerse the player in the game/lore.
Art is not there only just to please, this is the common mistake.
People think art is decorative, but art is not there only to please, it is there to express, express ideas, concepts and feelings.
If you judge art only for a taste point of view you will forget all the concept of the art movement, from the romantic and intense art of Aivazovsky to Schiele´s expressionism, art is not there only to be pleasing for the eyes.
There is a reason for the uglyness, the irreality and expression in art related to a movement/philosofy, from paiting to music, we cant say the same about avatars in a MMO.
Most of people today know nothing about art movements and concept, this is why most of people judge art just for the "pleasing" aspect... this is shallow and we cant compare to simple avatars in a MMO that have only 2 reasons to be there, fit the lore, fit the visual game universe and be attractive to the player.
...
I will tell you why is not a perfectly comparison, but more of a superficial comparison.
Avatars in a video game have only one purpose, to please and immerse the player in the game/lore.
Art is not there only just to please, this is the common mistake.
People think art is decorative, but art is not there only to please, it is there to express, express ideas, concepts and feelings.
If you judge art only for a taste point of view you will forget all the concept of the art movement, from the romantic and intense art of Aivazovsky to Schiele´s expressionism, art is not there only to be pleasing for the eyes.
There is a reason for the uglyness, the irreality and expression in art related to a movement/philosofy, from paiting to music, we cant say the same about avatars in a MMO.
Most of people today know nothing about art movements and concept, this is why most of people judge art just for the "pleasing" aspect... this is shallow and we cant compare to simple avatars in a MMO that have only 2 reasons to be there, fit the lore, fit the visual game universe and be attractive to the player.
...
Yes that is certainly true "classical" like one would lump together Chopin with Dowland with Danielpour. However, even though I am actually a composer, I consider it completely acceptable for people to say "classical" to describe such music. otherwise I would be a snob. Pointing out to someone that Rachaminov is romantic when they refer to it as classical would be a bit prissy in my opinion as I understand exactly what they are trying to say. To say that someone is shallow because they like something based upon "I like it" is elitist. I hate elitists. I am quite educated and I would never consider someone for being "less than" or shallow because they see things given their current education or experience. Especially because it is insulting and doesn't allow that they might eventually dig deeper "just because". I have first hand knowledge of an older gentleman who did just that. I believe he was an electrician. Never once listened to "classical" music when I gave hime a renaissance piece to learn on the guitar. Had I been a priss I could have corrected him whenever he said "classcial" as opposed to rennaissance but I find that that really isn't the high road. Long story "longer" he ended up going to a music camp to learn more about music.
I don't feel that one has to consider all the myriad ways that one might appreciate art when, if someone just "likes it" then that is good enough for me. I find that the deconstruction of art and music and theater in order to create a sort of caste system of "them" and "us" is probably part of the reason there is such a division among people and their feeling towards the arts. Like the individual who once said to me that nothing less than shakespeare ever touched his eyes. Oh please!
but my point remains. You might consider that avatars have only one purpose (isn't that shallow?) but I maintain that they are there to inspire those who desire a deeper connection to the game world. I think this is why one finds such a clamor to have more customization. Oh sure, one is not going to see all the details of an avatar, whether they have a tatoo or that the brows are furrowed "just so" but the player who cares knows it's there and that is enough in my opinion.
So too is the opinion that the LOTRO avatars don't quite get us there. At least for some. I know that I have spent a considerable amount of time just finding the right look for the outfit system with the right dye as I want somethign to be proud of as my avatar makes its way through middle earth.
So again, some might like one type of art (avatar) and some might like another. For me and many others, the avatars of LOTRO just don't do it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't really have a big problem with that. My biggest problem is just how they don't fit in with the background, it looks really like 2 different artist worked with the screen, one did the background and the other the characters.
It is off course important that both the background and characters fit with the lore but they also have to fit with eachother.
It wouldnt hurt either if they looked a litle more real and particular the armour looked better but it is that they look so out of place that I don't like.
Edit.
Your comparison made sense Sovrath and I agree with some of your points, I just dont belive any art expression should be used only to express and compare personal taste, as they are much, much more than that, as someone that I belive also enjoy/work with art, you may disagree with me, but I think you understand my point of view and my reasons.
You only misunderstood my points when you saw them as an elitist posture, what is not accurate as I belive everyone should have acess to art and information about art.
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Dudes, cut out some of the old quotes when you are answering a post, otherwise soon evry post takes up a full page. What the last guy wrote is enough to get what you are answering too...
LOL loke,
And just for the record Mozart is hardly a romantic composer -- he was deeply entrenched in the heart of the classical erra musically but that is a discussion for another another thread.....not to mention beyond the point that was being made hehe
However, to pull the thread back on track =P
It definately appears that the LOTRO avatars are a strong deterrent to a high ehough percentage of gamers that it ought to be a huge concern to turbine. I honestly don't think anyone is of the opinion that they are amazing but most of us who play extremely regularly don't seem to notice the issues being mentioned -- apart from my earlier critique I don't notice the issues with the avatars and the environment many keep mentioning, however that could be that I'm extremely used to them after having played the game nearly daily for hours at a time since early in to Beta hehe. That could also be an issue for Turbine -- I can't remember what my initial reaction was to the avatars to be honest -- I was just so excited to be logging in to LOTRO at the time (i'd been tracking the game for 3 years so I"m a bit obsessed).
I honestly don't think anyone actually playing the game would take issue with the avatars being overhauled though as long as it was an improvement and didn't break any existing gameplay. For those folks who are reluctant to play this game simply because of the avatars it's a real shame because the game is extremely fun and has a lot of potential.
On a side note -- I still have yet to see a screenshot from AoC that shows me just how *wonderful* the graphics apparently are. I really just don't see it -- all the screenshots i see from WAR are amazing though and graphically that game is leagues beyond all of them IMO. But graphics aren't enough to get me to switch games and LOTRO still has some stunning visuals! Yes the majority of them are landscapes etc but still they are there and very much worth seeing.
There is a discussion about that to tell the truth, the same happens with Beethoven music (even more) as he is present in both eras, both composers even for their time are related to classic, but most of their approach went beyond in techinical aspects and expression, not closed to the classical patterns, of course, the confusion was my fault as I didnt expressed it well in my text, as sometimes I forget to use some words in english and should have used an accurated description why I mentioned him.(not my mother tongue, edited to avoid confusion).
Something similar happens when we talk about how romantism started, if from the Sturm und Drang or from the french perspective and the discussion about the start of dodecaphonia.
Again, about the characters and the gameplay, Lotro as a game is not for everyone,(like all mmos) but it is not bad for sure.
Edit to add more...
About the romantism and Mozart "however: in 1810 E.T.A. Hoffmann called Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven the three "Romantic Composers", and Ludwig Spohr used the term "good Romantic style" to apply to parts of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony"
The reason Im talking about is just because it is an interesting subject, off topic I know but just to be clear it is not with the purpose to just argue with you musicman... anyway, I think you find this kind of thing interesting too... but I agree this is not the place to discuss it.
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In my humble opinion, the game world looks beautiful, why not the characters?
I think they look great. Love the game also.
Everquest 1, Star wars galaxies, City of heroes/villains, Eve, Lord of the rings, Age of Conan
No offence m8 and this isn't intended as a flame but how long have you been playing exactly? you need to be level 15 and have around one gold to get a player house (small but still housing), Character models are pretty good compared to a lot of others m8.
PS: i aint a fanboy or anything, i quit the game 6 months ago after getting 2 characters to level 50 and experiencing almost everything in game, i got bored....
lol.. I love you guys
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I've always described the avatars in LoTRO as "paper-dollish."
It's a great game, and I love Tolkien's work and his world. But even as a fan, I'm willing to admit that the character animations are a bit off.
WoW's gameplay and stylized, cartoon-ish graphics don't appeal to some, but one thing Blizzard did nail was the animaions and the way the avatars interact with the terrain and structures within the world.
It's never a bad thing to want the game one plays to be better- if the OP didn't like the game, he (or she) wouldn't care enough to post.
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"Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit"
Actually I knew what you were referring too but I've always disagreed with those discourses
Mozart's works do not have nearly enough chromaticism, they too rigidly in forms that rely on Symmetry etc. Right down to the chord structures -- you compare his works to that of Chopin, Liszt, Wagner (even though later in the romantic era) Schumann and you won't find much similarity at all honestly.
Actually if you take every characteristic of classicism in music it applies directly to Mozart -- most modern scholars have dismissed the notion of Mozart having a tendency towards Romanticism -- Beethoven on the other hand is considered the cross over/father of romanticism (musically). His later works he tried the chromaticism and romantic leans theoreticially romanticism was offering but he too had a hard time breaking out of the rigidness of classical form.
Classical music was a direct response to the extreme ornamentation of the baroque era and therefore focus'd on symmetry, pure melody and pure tone (major over simplification here, but this is a serious digression from the thread) -- Mozart's operas, wind concertos etc were considered to be the ultimate models of Belle Cante -- a very classical concept especially in opera.
So again not to get overly in to it but the sources you are quoting and the discussions you are eluding to are dubious at best -- and many scholars have dismissed them all together. That statement from 1810 doesn't really refer to Romanticism as it's defined in today's scholarship either -- it was a newer term at that time and in my opinion they weren't referring to style but to heart felt response to the music written by the 3 masters.
A thread discussing LotrOs character models and classical music = Pure win!
I hope Turibne will do some seriouse work with the models and animations since it seems alot people have a problem with them! The danger is that thoose of us who likes them will hate the new ones instead...
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
No offence m8 and this isn't intended as a flame but how long have you been playing exactly? you need to be level 15 and have around one gold to get a player house (small but still housing), Character models are pretty good compared to a lot of others m8.
PS: i aint a fanboy or anything, i quit the game 6 months ago after getting 2 characters to level 50 and experiencing almost everything in game, i got bored....
What game has more ugly character models than LOTRO? (out of the AAA MMOs not Runescape or some shit like that)
No offence m8 and this isn't intended as a flame but how long have you been playing exactly? you need to be level 15 and have around one gold to get a player house (small but still housing), Character models are pretty good compared to a lot of others m8.
PS: i aint a fanboy or anything, i quit the game 6 months ago after getting 2 characters to level 50 and experiencing almost everything in game, i got bored....
What game has more ugly character models than LOTRO? (out of the AAA MMOs not Runescape or some shit like that)
In my opinion EQ2 and Vanguard have much uglier characters.. WAR and WoW is on par and AoC is slightly better... (if comparaing AAA fantasy MMOs)
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
Eq2 don't in my opinion but even if you think so the models of EQ2 and Vanguard still does fit better in with the background than LOTROs. I am afraid I got rid of all my EQ2 screenshots however.
EQ2 is also in need of a char revamp, it have been promised a long time. Still, look on a EQ2 screen and see how the armor fits onthe character, in LOTRO it looks like the armours are extremly thin and tight, nothing that would work in real combat.
Wow and WARs armours are often impratical but they still looks like they fit the character. And WARs character are made to look like the tabletop figurines and they do that, I would also not call them good looking but that's just a matter of taste.
Anyways, the main question here is: Would more people play the game if they made the characters and armour looks better?
I think so.
And would the current players protest if they did it? Probably a few but many would like it.
Star Wars Galaxies has great models which are sooo well animated...
www.gametrailers.com/player/3821.html
Everquest 2 models are really well animated too, however the faces are horrible and plastic...
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/120.html
Star Trek Online has really nice looking character faces
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.massively.com/media/2008/10/screen_stoh35782f324.jpg
Character models make and break a game for me because Vanguard has terrible models and even the new ones are horrible and you can tell they arn't motion captured so they look nasty.
Don't be upset because LOTR is your favorite game. I am fan too but character models are an eyesore compared to the surrounding scenery.
Character models, textures, animations and armor models are all seperate issues.
Character models are just the actual model of the characteritself. This does notinclude the texturing or the armor.
Animations are the way the character moves. Not how it looks without movement.
The armor looking like is pasted on the model has nothing to do wit the charachter model. The armor has to do with the models used when making the armor and how it attached to the character model.
I say this because some people seem to be mixing the issue up.
The subjectof the thread is horrible charcter models. None of the rest although maybe the OP was confused and is lumping it all together. Like I said I think the models are ok...they could be better but what couldn't? it is no game breaker for me.
I agree the armor looks pasted on. Again though this is a seperate issue than character models. and i do wish they would fix this. Most likely they are using minimal models for the armor or they are plain out just changing textures with no actual armor models being attached.
Bear in mind though that improving this stuff will require more system resources. They need to balance that and since many players are used to what they already have, bumping things up could lose existing players. VG and AOC went the high end graphics route and look where that got them....buggy as hell and a limited population. Retooling some of this stuff is actually a major undertaking and not to be done lightly. Redoing how the armor attaches to the models make mean they have to retexture all their armor....
I like my avatar, the hair sucks but i like bald any way. I think it would be really hard to make good, realistic hair, imagine one day. Each strand of hair will be rendered individually all influenced by light and wind. Not saying in lotro but one day in games.
img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/osylith/ScreenShot00025.jpg for full size
Agree with op...am currently playing WAR and though its a decent game it doesnt feel alive and vibrant like LOTRO. I really enjoyed my time with LOTRO especially the scenery, little hobbit homes, ability to smoke a pipe play an instrument etc..really made the game feel warm and interesting.
That being said the character models were a big reason I quit.
If they revamped the character and armor this game would blow the others out of the water. If they added meaningful pvp it would dominate the MMO market.
Thinking of returning now that I saw the Mines of Moria info. But character models of the game are still making me wary.
I cant put my finger on it, but the elves smushed faces....wierd skin tight clothes, armor etc...they just didn't give me the sense of pride in my character that i was looking for.
The game itself runs smooth, much smoother than WAR and will probably give it another try. But in all likelihood wont continue playing for any long periond if the characters arn't fixed.
When I seen the Legendary item models I puke inside my mouth a little. True story.
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...I'm in your panties
Not to mention horrible head gear for champions. Seriously what the hell is up with that? character models are ugly enough and to make things worse armor sets are even more horrible. My lvl 44 champ has never toggled his helm appearance because since lvl 1 all of them are ugly and weird as hell.
For example, Wig-feld cloack is in legendary category. Design contest winner and it looks great. And I don't think you saw all the legendaries coming with Moria.
And according from yours posts, you are not pleased with any of the mmorpgs right now. Just trolling?
Getalife ... champ helm from rift armor looks nice.