WoW is Great for a reason - Blizzard design has hit the "sweet spot" of what the majority of gamers want in a mmog.
Curious that elite mmogers, who clamor for a company that listens to its base and delivers what that base wants, don't recognize that their goal has already been achieved in WoW.
After a quick chat with a CSR I've dealt with a few times ("mgillies@blizzard.com" <mgillies@blizzard.com>; ) I can say that a suscriber IS "anyone who has bought software and/or paid subscription fees, and is either currently either active or inactive, regardless of account standing"
The detail being bought software.. so 11 million people have paid for software.. regardless of them being active or inactive, blizzard are boasting total numbers, not active numbers.
Kind of small if you consider solitare.., everyone who bought windows also bought solitare in the package.. so I wonder what kind of numbers Wes Cherry could boast )
After a quick chat with a CSR I've dealt with a few times ("mgillies@blizzard.com" <mgillies@blizzard.com>; ) I can say that a suscriber IS "anyone who has bought software and/or paid subscription fees, and is either currently either active or inactive, regardless of account standing"
The detail being bought software.. so 11 million people have paid for software.. regardless of them being active or inactive, blizzard are boasting total numbers, not active numbers.
Kind of small if you consider solitare.., everyone who bought windows also bought solitare in the package.. so I wonder what kind of numbers Wes Cherry could boast )
Just read the press release to find out what Blizzard details as a subscriber.
World of Warcraft's Subscriber Definition
World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as subscribers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards. Subscribers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.
Honestly, just look at how many game servers that there are. North America and Europe have just a bit over 475 realms. Think about how many people it actually takes to fill that many servers.
I found the numbers hard to believe also, but the math seems to work out accounts/server ratio and peak online populations.
It's so fun to read theese threads about sub numbers. People who just can't accept that WoW HAS the numbers are the best, followed closely by people who rationalise WoWs succes in the first place.
While it is an impressive feat this doesn't mean that WoW currently has 11 million subscribers.
And don't forget out of the 11 million, 1 million are Gold Farmers.
The Gold Farmer thing is the biggest myth ever. 10 Percent of the players are not gold farmers. I actually never see gold farmers...I think WoW killed that problem making gold easy to get/ farmers have gold piled up.
Next...How do you get it doesnt mean WoW has 11 million subscribers now, what you think it means. Did you read the post before you replied?
I just wonder how many of those 11 million are children and how many of those 11 million accounts are actually one person with multiple accounts.
I wouldn't be suprised if only 1 million adults play (some with multiple accounts) and the rest are underaged children, mainly due to the maturity lvl found in WoW. I would almost swear that Elmo's World has a more mature audience.
As far as the gold farmers, I report at least one in every major city I go to.
After a quick chat with a CSR I've dealt with a few times ("mgillies@blizzard.com" <mgillies@blizzard.com>; ) I can say that a suscriber IS "anyone who has bought software and/or paid subscription fees, and is either currently either active or inactive, regardless of account standing"
The detail being bought software.. so 11 million people have paid for software.. regardless of them being active or inactive, blizzard are boasting total numbers, not active numbers.
Kind of small if you consider solitare.., everyone who bought windows also bought solitare in the package.. so I wonder what kind of numbers Wes Cherry could boast )
Quite an imagination you have there Lochrin. You've already been caught out so I wont bang on.. in future read the full press release before making stuff up.
I'm playing since release and I very rarely had any problems with maturity in wow. Sure there's an occasional retard but I'm not really bothered. And fyi older players are just as often immature as 12 year old kiddies. Stop pulling numbers out of your ass please.
Feel free to email the CSR at that address, he is a great guy, and the information HE related was what he has in his FAQ.
I wasn't debating the numbers, dumbo. I was refering to an earlier post when someone asked how exactly a subscriber was defined. So I wasn't 'caught out' at anything. I wasn't attempting anything to be 'caught out at'
The only stinging remark anyone could read out of that was the reference to wes cherry.. if you even know who that is..
coffee sounds like he should go back to Elmo's World and keep away from the adult chat..
Feel free to email the CSR at that address, he is a great guy, and the information HE related was what he has in his FAQ. I wasn't debating the numbers, dumbo. I was refering to an earlier post when someone asked how exactly a subscriber was defined. So I wasn't 'caught out' at anything. I wasn't attempting anything to be 'caught out at' The only stinging remark anyone could read out of that was the reference to wes cherry.. if you even know who that is.. coffee sounds like he should go back to Elmo's World and keep away from the adult chat..
Feel free to email the CSR at that address, he is a great guy, and the information HE related was what he has in his FAQ. I wasn't debating the numbers, dumbo. I was refering to an earlier post when someone asked how exactly a subscriber was defined. So I wasn't 'caught out' at anything. I wasn't attempting anything to be 'caught out at' The only stinging remark anyone could read out of that was the reference to wes cherry.. if you even know who that is.. coffee sounds like he should go back to Elmo's World and keep away from the adult chat..
"I talked to some guy and even though I don't show any proof of the conversation it is true! Their press release is just a lie!"
Why are you so determined to claim you are right when they said what they base subscriber numbers on? And seriously, throwing lame insults at people and claiming you are being an "adult"? The people on the internet and forums just sadden me.
Feel free to email the CSR at that address, he is a great guy, and the information HE related was what he has in his FAQ. I wasn't debating the numbers, dumbo. I was refering to an earlier post when someone asked how exactly a subscriber was defined. So I wasn't 'caught out' at anything. I wasn't attempting anything to be 'caught out at' The only stinging remark anyone could read out of that was the reference to wes cherry.. if you even know who that is.. coffee sounds like he should go back to Elmo's World and keep away from the adult chat..
Lochrin Vs Press Release...
hmm....
Im gona side with the evidence/logic/obvious answer.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Hard to believe a 4-5 year old game keeps growing with players when every other mmo loses subs as a game gets older. Not hating here but it does not sound logical at all. Grats anyway!
Hard to believe a 4-5 year old game keeps growing with players when every other mmo loses subs as a game gets older. Not hating here but it does not sound logical at all. Grats anyway!
To me it kind of makes sense. People quit AoC and WAR because of bugs and the game not being polished. After 4-5 years a game is usually pretty damn polished.
Having not read through all the posts I do not know if this has been mentioned. I call BS on Blizzards numbers of subcribers if they are claiming these as active.
Using simple math with the number of active subscribers and then a comparision of that number and it's potential income against the earning of Activision/Blizzard it is easy to see the numbers do not hold. In fact the numbers get even more out of wack when you look at a breakdown and see that the PC division is not even CLOSE to the most productive division of the company, with console sales KILLING PC division income. Then you realize that Activision/Blizzard does a few more games than just WoW on the PC and the complete BS that the WoW subscription numbers gives is easy to see.
no wonder mmo's are on the skids with such a huge mass of ppl playing/paying for crap like that.
sorry but i hate WoW for being a cakewalk
It is fine to not like a game, because your personal tastes do not like what the game offers you.
However, other MMOs are on the skids, because developers continue to rush out unfinshed, untested and incomplete MMO releases to the market and it has proven to be a recipe for failure time and time again. WoW is succeeding, because they listen to their customers, refine the game and give people what they want. Think about this for just one moment, the word "polished" wasn't even used to describe MMOs before WoW.
The bar has been risen and companies that don't bring their A game are having a hard time in todays market, because people are tired of buying a game and having to wait 6-12 months for the chance it will get fixed or finished. There are a few companies that have stepped up their response and quality and they are doing well as a result. Most cannot say the same though.
Having not read through all the posts I do not know if this has been mentioned. I call BS on Blizzards numbers of subcribers if they are claiming these as active. Using simple math with the number of active subscribers and then a comparision of that number and it's potential income against the earning of Activision/Blizzard it is easy to see the numbers do not hold. In fact the numbers get even more out of wack when you look at a breakdown and see that the PC division is not even CLOSE to the most productive division of the company, with console sales KILLING PC division income. Then you realize that Activision/Blizzard does a few more games than just WoW on the PC and the complete BS that the WoW subscription numbers gives is easy to see.
My question is why is Blizzard lying about this?
Care to share your "math" that proves this?
I'm pretty sure I already know what you have done with simply math, but lets hear your proof.
Having not read through all the posts I do not know if this has been mentioned. I call BS on Blizzards numbers of subcribers if they are claiming these as active. Using simple math with the number of active subscribers and then a comparision of that number and it's potential income against the earning of Activision/Blizzard it is easy to see the numbers do not hold. In fact the numbers get even more out of wack when you look at a breakdown and see that the PC division is not even CLOSE to the most productive division of the company, with console sales KILLING PC division income. Then you realize that Activision/Blizzard does a few more games than just WoW on the PC and the complete BS that the WoW subscription numbers gives is easy to see.
My question is why is Blizzard lying about this?
Have you ever heard of a little thing called expenditure? Good grief you haters get sadder by the day. Do you think all those servers pay for themselves? What about the salaries of all the employees? Really now.
Lets assume for a moment that you have just 10 million subscribers, that is active accounts. now the normal cost for an account is $14.95 per month but we need to account for free accounts and even reduced cosyts account so we figure an average price of say $10 per month. That works out to 100 million dollars per month for WoW allone.
Now if you look at the activision financials this would mean you would need to see an income of around $100 million per month or 1.2 BILLION per years from just the PC division. The problem is EVERY finanacial reported by Activision/Blizzard falls way short of these numbers.
The above project BTW would also not include the income from new game purchases as well as from other games in the Activision/Blizzard stable for the PC division.
Now I can believe 11 million total sales and if they said total sales then the number would be accuruate in my opinion. However to say 11 million subscribers suggest 11 million active accounts and this is pure BS. That is unless of coourse Blizzard is not correctly reporting their income and thus could be ducking taxes as well as defrauding their stock holders.
I think a more likey scenario based on the financial reports and a bit of common sense would lead to 11 million sales since release and an active customer base currently of around 200,000.
Lets assume for a moment that you have just 10 million subscribers, that is active accounts. now the normal cost for an account is $14.95 per month but we need to account for free accounts and even reduced cosyts account so we figure an average price of say $10 per month. That works out to 100 million dollars per month for WoW allone. Now if you look at the activision financials this would mean you would need to see an income of around $100 million per month or 1.2 BILLION per years from just the PC division. The problem is EVERY finanacial reported by Activision/Blizzard falls way short of these numbers. The above project BTW would also not include the income from new game purchases as well as from other games in the Activision/Blizzard stable for the PC division. Now I can believe 11 million total sales and if they said total sales then the number would be accuruate in my opinion. However to say 11 million subscribers suggest 11 million active accounts and this is pure BS. That is unless of coourse Blizzard is not correctly reporting their income and thus could be ducking taxes as well as defrauding their stock holders. I think a more likey scenario based on the financial reports and a bit of common sense would lead to 11 million sales since release and an active customer base currently of around 200,000.
You are assuming all of their customers are from North America.
Do you really think the Chinese pay 15 American dollars per month to play this game? I think it's less than that. not to mention all the other countries they have subs from (Russia soon, South America, etc.)
Lets assume for a moment that you have just 10 million subscribers, that is active accounts. now the normal cost for an account is $14.95 per month but we need to account for free accounts and even reduced cosyts account so we figure an average price of say $10 per month. That works out to 100 million dollars per month for WoW allone. Now if you look at the activision financials this would mean you would need to see an income of around $100 million per month or 1.2 BILLION per years from just the PC division. The problem is EVERY finanacial reported by Activision/Blizzard falls way short of these numbers. The above project BTW would also not include the income from new game purchases as well as from other games in the Activision/Blizzard stable for the PC division. Now I can believe 11 million total sales and if they said total sales then the number would be accuruate in my opinion. However to say 11 million subscribers suggest 11 million active accounts and this is pure BS. That is unless of coourse Blizzard is not correctly reporting their income and thus could be ducking taxes as well as defrauding their stock holders. I think a more likey scenario based on the financial reports and a bit of common sense would lead to 11 million sales since release and an active customer base currently of around 200,000.
200,000 LOL
WoW has been in the top 5 PC sales charts for 4 years - FACT
TBC sold 3.6million copies in the first month in the US&EU - FACT
There are almost 450 western servers - FACT
Blizzard has never closed or merged server ( cept the russian swap thing ) - FACT
All of blizzards press released state clearly who they consider a subcriber ( please read it) - FACT
1st: 10$ is way too less 'cause europeans pay the same monthly fee but in Euro not $
2nd: the annual income isn't the base for taxes but the income minus "rent" salaries broken equipment new equipment etc - all running costs. therefore 1.5 billion can't be the earnings for wow even with 11 mill subscribers at 10$ / month
3rd: other than american statistcs say that there're about 130K of wow players just in china. not to mention India where kids are forced to play wow and other mmo's to "earn" the ingame money that is offered at some well known online auctions and other places
to stay with 15$ a month at least 100.000 subscribers would pay for salaries and servers well enough.
nonetheless i doubt it to be 11 million of active subscribers.
even 1 million is a huge amount but - concerning the simplicity of wow - pretty realistic.
According to my understanding share holder reports show the GROSS income, that means the ammount of money coming in BEFORE taxes and expenses. Also as some have pointed out the outside the US customers pay a bit more after exchange than the $15 per month basis and as i said this was a conservative estimate.
Now unless Activision/Blizzard is not the actually compnay making the money from the China and Euro markests then I would presume that the income report reflect all sources. As such with these numbers in front of you unless someone else can explain why the income does not even come close, then we are left with the explination that 11 subscribers means 11 million sold and does not in ANY way reflect a realistic active subscriber base.
In fact I would love to hear Activision give the REAL number of active, that is currently paid up and no suspended or cancelled accounts.
Comments
WoW is Great for a reason - Blizzard design has hit the "sweet spot" of what the majority of gamers want in a mmog.
Curious that elite mmogers, who clamor for a company that listens to its base and delivers what that base wants, don't recognize that their goal has already been achieved in WoW.
After a quick chat with a CSR I've dealt with a few times ("mgillies@blizzard.com" <mgillies@blizzard.com>; ) I can say that a suscriber IS "anyone who has bought software and/or paid subscription fees, and is either currently either active or inactive, regardless of account standing"
The detail being bought software.. so 11 million people have paid for software.. regardless of them being active or inactive, blizzard are boasting total numbers, not active numbers.
Kind of small if you consider solitare.., everyone who bought windows also bought solitare in the package.. so I wonder what kind of numbers Wes Cherry could boast )
Just read the press release to find out what Blizzard details as a subscriber.
World of Warcraft's Subscriber Definition
World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as subscribers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards. Subscribers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.
Honestly, just look at how many game servers that there are. North America and Europe have just a bit over 475 realms. Think about how many people it actually takes to fill that many servers.
I found the numbers hard to believe also, but the math seems to work out accounts/server ratio and peak online populations.
It's so fun to read theese threads about sub numbers. People who just can't accept that WoW HAS the numbers are the best, followed closely by people who rationalise WoWs succes in the first place.
Good show, good show I say!
*goes back into the safety of the herd*
The Gold Farmer thing is the biggest myth ever. 10 Percent of the players are not gold farmers. I actually never see gold farmers...I think WoW killed that problem making gold easy to get/ farmers have gold piled up.
Next...How do you get it doesnt mean WoW has 11 million subscribers now, what you think it means. Did you read the post before you replied?
I just wonder how many of those 11 million are children and how many of those 11 million accounts are actually one person with multiple accounts.
I wouldn't be suprised if only 1 million adults play (some with multiple accounts) and the rest are underaged children, mainly due to the maturity lvl found in WoW. I would almost swear that Elmo's World has a more mature audience.
As far as the gold farmers, I report at least one in every major city I go to.
Quite an imagination you have there Lochrin. You've already been caught out so I wont bang on.. in future read the full press release before making stuff up.
I'm playing since release and I very rarely had any problems with maturity in wow. Sure there's an occasional retard but I'm not really bothered. And fyi older players are just as often immature as 12 year old kiddies. Stop pulling numbers out of your ass please.
Feel free to email the CSR at that address, he is a great guy, and the information HE related was what he has in his FAQ.
I wasn't debating the numbers, dumbo. I was refering to an earlier post when someone asked how exactly a subscriber was defined. So I wasn't 'caught out' at anything. I wasn't attempting anything to be 'caught out at'
The only stinging remark anyone could read out of that was the reference to wes cherry.. if you even know who that is..
coffee sounds like he should go back to Elmo's World and keep away from the adult chat..
He's not the one making stuff up.
"I talked to some guy and even though I don't show any proof of the conversation it is true! Their press release is just a lie!"
Why are you so determined to claim you are right when they said what they base subscriber numbers on? And seriously, throwing lame insults at people and claiming you are being an "adult"? The people on the internet and forums just sadden me.
Lochrin Vs Press Release...
hmm....
Im gona side with the evidence/logic/obvious answer.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
its all lies, really its just 4 guys in there moms basement, 11 million as if, pah, The Realm has more players
Hard to believe a 4-5 year old game keeps growing with players when every other mmo loses subs as a game gets older. Not hating here but it does not sound logical at all. Grats anyway!
no wonder mmo's are on the skids with such a huge mass of ppl playing/paying for crap like that.
sorry but i hate WoW for being a cakewalk
faster pussycat - kill kill kill
To me it kind of makes sense. People quit AoC and WAR because of bugs and the game not being polished. After 4-5 years a game is usually pretty damn polished.
Having not read through all the posts I do not know if this has been mentioned. I call BS on Blizzards numbers of subcribers if they are claiming these as active.
Using simple math with the number of active subscribers and then a comparision of that number and it's potential income against the earning of Activision/Blizzard it is easy to see the numbers do not hold. In fact the numbers get even more out of wack when you look at a breakdown and see that the PC division is not even CLOSE to the most productive division of the company, with console sales KILLING PC division income. Then you realize that Activision/Blizzard does a few more games than just WoW on the PC and the complete BS that the WoW subscription numbers gives is easy to see.
My question is why is Blizzard lying about this?
=============================
I have a soap box and I am not afraid to use it.
It is fine to not like a game, because your personal tastes do not like what the game offers you.
However, other MMOs are on the skids, because developers continue to rush out unfinshed, untested and incomplete MMO releases to the market and it has proven to be a recipe for failure time and time again. WoW is succeeding, because they listen to their customers, refine the game and give people what they want. Think about this for just one moment, the word "polished" wasn't even used to describe MMOs before WoW.
The bar has been risen and companies that don't bring their A game are having a hard time in todays market, because people are tired of buying a game and having to wait 6-12 months for the chance it will get fixed or finished. There are a few companies that have stepped up their response and quality and they are doing well as a result. Most cannot say the same though.
Care to share your "math" that proves this?
I'm pretty sure I already know what you have done with simply math, but lets hear your proof.
Have you ever heard of a little thing called expenditure? Good grief you haters get sadder by the day. Do you think all those servers pay for themselves? What about the salaries of all the employees? Really now.
Lets assume for a moment that you have just 10 million subscribers, that is active accounts. now the normal cost for an account is $14.95 per month but we need to account for free accounts and even reduced cosyts account so we figure an average price of say $10 per month. That works out to 100 million dollars per month for WoW allone.
Now if you look at the activision financials this would mean you would need to see an income of around $100 million per month or 1.2 BILLION per years from just the PC division. The problem is EVERY finanacial reported by Activision/Blizzard falls way short of these numbers.
The above project BTW would also not include the income from new game purchases as well as from other games in the Activision/Blizzard stable for the PC division.
Now I can believe 11 million total sales and if they said total sales then the number would be accuruate in my opinion. However to say 11 million subscribers suggest 11 million active accounts and this is pure BS. That is unless of coourse Blizzard is not correctly reporting their income and thus could be ducking taxes as well as defrauding their stock holders.
I think a more likey scenario based on the financial reports and a bit of common sense would lead to 11 million sales since release and an active customer base currently of around 200,000.
=============================
I have a soap box and I am not afraid to use it.
LOL
You are assuming all of their customers are from North America.
Do you really think the Chinese pay 15 American dollars per month to play this game? I think it's less than that. not to mention all the other countries they have subs from (Russia soon, South America, etc.)
200,000 LOL
1st: 10$ is way too less 'cause europeans pay the same monthly fee but in Euro not $
2nd: the annual income isn't the base for taxes but the income minus "rent" salaries broken equipment new equipment etc - all running costs. therefore 1.5 billion can't be the earnings for wow even with 11 mill subscribers at 10$ / month
3rd: other than american statistcs say that there're about 130K of wow players just in china. not to mention India where kids are forced to play wow and other mmo's to "earn" the ingame money that is offered at some well known online auctions and other places
to stay with 15$ a month at least 100.000 subscribers would pay for salaries and servers well enough.
nonetheless i doubt it to be 11 million of active subscribers.
even 1 million is a huge amount but - concerning the simplicity of wow - pretty realistic.
faster pussycat - kill kill kill
According to my understanding share holder reports show the GROSS income, that means the ammount of money coming in BEFORE taxes and expenses. Also as some have pointed out the outside the US customers pay a bit more after exchange than the $15 per month basis and as i said this was a conservative estimate.
Now unless Activision/Blizzard is not the actually compnay making the money from the China and Euro markests then I would presume that the income report reflect all sources. As such with these numbers in front of you unless someone else can explain why the income does not even come close, then we are left with the explination that 11 subscribers means 11 million sold and does not in ANY way reflect a realistic active subscriber base.
In fact I would love to hear Activision give the REAL number of active, that is currently paid up and no suspended or cancelled accounts.
=============================
I have a soap box and I am not afraid to use it.