Originally posted by Ekibiogami You are Wrong on Sandbox. Sanbox Means that You the player can Have some to Great Effect on the world. In Vanguard You have NONE. Like you said tho, it is "Free Range" Or "Open Theam Park" Course Most MMO's are Open theam. There never was Anyone on WOW telling me I had to do this Next set of quests.. Heck i spent most of my time Dooing other things from what most people do in that game. (And i lvled Ungodly slow because of it). ATM I can not think of a True Sandbox game.Edit Eve is one Old Starwars was a Sandbox game and UO was the Biggest and Most True Sandbox game there was. Both have been Butched from that tho. In Vanguard I have yet to Do a Dungen. Not TK Not anything. Wanted to. But just havent. Prohaps its time. Im lvl 22 atm With a Brother Hood thats all Unsubscribed.
By simply googling "define:Sandbox game" the following is the result:
A sandbox game (or a video game with an optional sandbox mode) is a video game with an open-ended and non-linear style of gameplay...
My point.
Ok so by your Deff Most mmos lik wow are Sandboxs? The only real theampark games are Guildwars or what?
there are 20 Diffrent Deff's of sand box on this fourm. Wiki Dosent make you Instantly right. And there is a Big Diff from a MMO to GTA.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
I want to know honestly, at peak times, how many people are gona be online on the most populated server? I'm really interested in playing this game but when I first tried it was too buggy, then I tried again after the fixes and the world was too empty. What are the odds of me finding groups consistently at lower levels
Full Groups? Not sure. there are allways people LFGing everywhere and at all lvls. Even 50 now.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
Secondly, sandbox isn't determined by how many people are along the way. You can do what you want, when you want. The number of people doing it along with you is irrelevant. Do you know what sandbox means?
You are Wrong on Sandbox. Sanbox Means that You the player can Have some to Great Effect on the world. In Vanguard You have NONE. Like you said tho, it is "Free Range" Or "Open Theam Park"
Course Most MMO's are Open theam. There never was Anyone on WOW telling me I had to do this Next set of quests.. Heck i spent most of my time Dooing other things from what most people do in that game. (And i lvled Ungodly slow because of it).
ATM I can not think of a True Sandbox game.Edit Eve is one Old Starwars was a Sandbox game and UO was the Biggest and Most True Sandbox game there was. Both have been Butched from that tho.
In Vanguard I have yet to Do a Dungen. Not TK Not anything. Wanted to. But just havent. Prohaps its time. Im lvl 22 atm With a Brother Hood thats all Unsubscribed.
Your definition is wrong. Sandbox has nothing to do with impact on world (That's actually usually the exact opposite). Sandbox is simply nonlinear world with no barriers, no invisible walls, no impassable terrain, no level requirements for anything.
Er...no. While the definition is somewhat open ended, you're parameters are almost never part of it. (except the part about level requirements). And yes, in almost all Sandbox style games, a player can definitely have impact on the world, sometimes quite significantly.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In my opinion Vanguard now stands alone as the best sandbox game out.
OK. I have to intervene here, because i love the concept of VG and its world, but in the "sandbox" departament this game is a failure. It has leveling, bind equipment, skills learned by classes every 2 levels. The world is not zoned but your actions are constrained by levels of quests and mobs, so i fail to see any sandboxiness...in this case it is JUST like WOW.
Sorry
PS: and don't get me started on the sandboxiness of PVP :P
Secondly, sandbox isn't determined by how many people are along the way. You can do what you want, when you want. The number of people doing it along with you is irrelevant. Do you know what sandbox means?
You are Wrong on Sandbox. Sanbox Means that You the player can Have some to Great Effect on the world. In Vanguard You have NONE. Like you said tho, it is "Free Range" Or "Open Theam Park"
Course Most MMO's are Open theam. There never was Anyone on WOW telling me I had to do this Next set of quests.. Heck i spent most of my time Dooing other things from what most people do in that game. (And i lvled Ungodly slow because of it).
ATM I can not think of a True Sandbox game.Edit Eve is one Old Starwars was a Sandbox game and UO was the Biggest and Most True Sandbox game there was. Both have been Butched from that tho.
In Vanguard I have yet to Do a Dungen. Not TK Not anything. Wanted to. But just havent. Prohaps its time. Im lvl 22 atm With a Brother Hood thats all Unsubscribed.
Your definition is wrong. Sandbox has nothing to do with impact on world (That's actually usually the exact opposite).<<Plz explain Sandbox is simply nonlinear world with no barriers, no invisible walls, no impassable terrain, no level requirements for anything.
So were back to Old UO and Eve as the only 2 Sandboxes.. So be it.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
But back on topic. Is VG dying? I think a game needs a pulse first before it can die.
Id say 250k Boxes sold at Launch was a Good Pulse. To bad the Subject Crashed(Literaly) Right after.
Its sad that the Devs arn't trying at all to get those 250k to resub. they are trying to go for the eq2/wow (Im not sure tbh) Groups.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
So were back to Old UO and Eve as the only 2 Sandboxes.. So be it.
Yes, only these 2 games are really sandbox...
Got a third? id like to try it.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
Its Limping right now. If it Rebreaks its Legs or Heals and walks is up to soe.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
Today 17-18 p.m EU +2 gtm 46 ppl online no itsnot death pop will get better and better!!! need lots of pvp polish.....
Uhm, not so impressing. EQ2 have that in Kelanthin just. They should merge the servers more.
The game surey isn't dead but that is mostly because SOE is running it, their system make small games work too. NC soft would have killed it a long time ago.
I played Vanguard from release to about a year ago when I moved on to LOTRO. It held my undivided attention for a whole year.
Based on my experience playing it, I would say that the crafting was the best I have experienced. Each crafting profession had a very well thought out progression and was very well integrated with the other crafts. There was a lot of versatility in carpentry in shipbuilding, high tier furniture and decorating. Carpentry was not only a very lucrative business, but a lot of fun too. Among the best moments for me was helping to build our guildhall. We were entertained for weeks on end mining granite and working the diplomatic circles. The experience was a fun bonding agent for the entire guild. Excellent concept and very well thought out.
The classes were balanced. The quest system was interesting and dungeoncrawling was challenging and a lot of fun.
The problem with Vanguard was that once you hit 50 in all spheres, there was not much to do, so you moved on.
I don't know what has happened in the last year. Around the time when I left, the changes in mob spawn bothered me. All the great places we crafters had used for harvesting high tier resources in peace and quiet were riddled with elite and high level mobs. I guess the developers did not understand that crafters are a different breed from everyday adventurers. Although crafters generally love to kill mobs and dungeon crawl, when they are harvesting resources, many times solo, they dont want a group of elites popping around the granite. When crafters harvest, they usually are in a mood for a quiet relaxing time. If they weren't they would be in a dungeon somewhere.
These changes implemented about a year after release, disturbed already established player routines and detracted from the enjoyment of the game. In my case, I moved on and so did many of my friends.
If Vanguard is in a subscription lull at the moment, its developers should think a little on what changes they have implemented that have disillusioned the player base. They have a great concept, they have a great game. The way the continents and factions are set up have excellent potential for great RvR a la Warhammer and DAoC. Give crafters and harvesters some love and introduce RvR style pvp at 50 and I'll be dusting off my leatherworker and carpenter in the blink of an eye. Unfortunately, that is unlikely. Developers rarely listen to player feedback. So... there is always LOTRO, Warhammer and soon Darkfall. Vanguard is now a pleasant memory of a different time and place.
Originally posted by Ekibiogami Ok so by your Deff Most mmos lik wow are Sandboxs? The only real theampark games are Guildwars or what? there are 20 Diffrent Deff's of sand box on this fourm. Wiki Dosent make you Instantly right. And there is a Big Diff from a MMO to GTA.
Firstly, that wasn't my definition. So no, not by my definition. But I 100% agree with it. Secondly, said definition clearly states "non-linear style of gaming." WoW most definitely posseses a linear style of gaming. You said so yourself. Though you may not have leveled quickly, you were eventually forced to in order to progress in the game. The point of WoW is to level up via questing/grinding (moving from area to area fighting mobs suited to your level - linear) and eventually raid and/or partake in PvP. You may choose to do it slowly but the point is that if you stick with the way the game was designed, you're going to end up there. Sure you may have the ability to craft and you're not forced to level, but the core aspect of the gameplay is to level. The only way to do that is quest or grind. It's linear.
So, coming back to the definition - a sandbox game is open-ended and non-linear. You aren't forced to partake in a particular activity in order to progress in the game without serious difficulty. The Saga of Ryzom, for example, is a sandbox game. You can do what you want and when you want, but your actions have no effect on the greater scheme of things. It is in no way linear.
I want to know honestly, at peak times, how many people are gona be online on the most populated server? I'm really interested in playing this game but when I first tried it was too buggy, then I tried again after the fixes and the world was too empty. What are the odds of me finding groups consistently at lower levels
there are over 1000 people on at peak on seradon. I did a check last week when someone was discussing this in the eq2 forums where I did a complete breakdowns of seradon and antonica balye at the same time. Seradon not only had more people but it had a better level range for people to play with. ie more low level people. Like 6 months ago I profiled wow as well and wow was had a few more people on my server but far far less at lower levels. 90% of everyone on wow servers are max levels or were 6 months ago.
Originally posted by Ekibiogami Ok so by your Deff Most mmos lik wow are Sandboxs? The only real theampark games are Guildwars or what? there are 20 Diffrent Deff's of sand box on this fourm. Wiki Dosent make you Instantly right. And there is a Big Diff from a MMO to GTA.
Firstly, that wasn't my definition. So no, not by my definition. But I 100% agree with it. Secondly, said definition clearly states "non-linear style of gaming." WoW most definitely posseses a linear style of gaming. You said so yourself. Though you may not have leveled quickly, you were eventually forced to in order to progress in the game. (read my post I DIDENT Do the quests that they said to do and I lvled slow. at 60 when i Quit I had done ONE Dungeon thats it. I did Quests in parts of the World My friends had never even seen. So by your DEFF I Bucked the theam park and Played it like a sand box)The point of WoW is to level up via questing/grinding (moving from area to area fighting mobs suited to your level - linear) and eventually raid and/or partake in PvP. You may choose to do it slowly but the point is that if you stick with the way the game was designed, you're going to end up there.(Coverd above) Sure you may have the ability to craft and you're not forced to level, but the core aspect of the gameplay is to level. The only way to do that is quest or grind. It's linear. Name a MMO thats NOT in this catagory. Aside from Eve and UO. Vanguard sure as Heck aint in this area.
So, coming back to the definition - a sandbox game is open-ended and non-linear. You aren't forced to partake in a particular activity in order to progress in the game without serious difficulty. The Saga of Ryzom, for example, is a sandbox game. You can do what you want and when you want, but your actions have no effect on the greater scheme of things. It is in no way linear. So By your Own Deff Its not a sandbox game... thank you.
Sandbox mode
In a game with a sandbox mode, a player may turn off or ignore game objectives. This can open up possibilities that were not intended by the game designer. A sandbox mode is an option in otherwise goal-oriented games, and should be distinguished from open-ended games with no objectives such as Sim City.
A sandbox-like structure of gameplay is featured prominently in the Grand Theft Auto franchise. Other games where players may ignore the game objectives and explore the world as a sandbox include Freelancer, and Crackdown.
This is what Comes after you click the link... Granted It dosent have anything to do with Changeing the world around you so ill give you that one. But It covers Every MMO i have ever played.. So your still wrong.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
Is the question: "Does Vanguard have enough subscribers to maintain it?"
I dunno. Maybe $O£ can answer that question.
I reckon if you asked Blizzard, they would probably have heart failure while rolling around on the floor laughing at you. But then, that would be true if you asked them about any other MMORPG, wouldn't it?
If the question is: "Is the game as bad as it was at launch and therefore not worth starting to play now or coming back to?"
I think it's very good with very few bugs or problems (just some minor graphical glitches that I've seen) and people keep commenting (in game) about how much it's improved over the last year and a bit. The developers seem to have their noses to the grindstone and are just getting on with improving it (OK, and yeah - putting in things they promised at the start). If you like an EQ2 style game but with greater options for starting play you will enjoy it, if you don't - there are many other games out there to tempt you, some probably better, some probably worse, but none with that interesting Vanguard fantasy feel.
Are the servers busy?
Not according to the WoW scale of things, no. It's dead according to the WoW scale of things. Along with every other game out there with less than 12 million subscribers.
Originally posted by Ekibiogami Ok so by your Deff Most mmos lik wow are Sandboxs? The only real theampark games are Guildwars or what? there are 20 Diffrent Deff's of sand box on this fourm. Wiki Dosent make you Instantly right. And there is a Big Diff from a MMO to GTA.
Firstly, that wasn't my definition. So no, not by my definition. But I 100% agree with it. Secondly, said definition clearly states "non-linear style of gaming." WoW most definitely posseses a linear style of gaming. You said so yourself. Though you may not have leveled quickly, you were eventually forced to in order to progress in the game. (read my post I DIDENT Do the quests that they said to do and I lvled slow. at 60 when i Quit I had done ONE Dungeon thats it. I did Quests in parts of the World My friends had never even seen. So by your DEFF I Bucked the theam park and Played it like a sand box)The point of WoW is to level up via questing/grinding (moving from area to area fighting mobs suited to your level - linear) and eventually raid and/or partake in PvP. You may choose to do it slowly but the point is that if you stick with the way the game was designed, you're going to end up there.(Coverd above) Sure you may have the ability to craft and you're not forced to level, but the core aspect of the gameplay is to level. The only way to do that is quest or grind. It's linear. Name a MMO thats NOT in this catagory. Aside from Eve and UO. Vanguard sure as Heck aint in this area.
So, coming back to the definition - a sandbox game is open-ended and non-linear. You aren't forced to partake in a particular activity in order to progress in the game without serious difficulty. The Saga of Ryzom, for example, is a sandbox game. You can do what you want and when you want, but your actions have no effect on the greater scheme of things. It is in no way linear. So By your Own Deff Its not a sandbox game... thank you.
Sandbox mode
In a game with a sandbox mode, a player may turn off or ignore game objectives. This can open up possibilities that were not intended by the game designer. A sandbox mode is an option in otherwise goal-oriented games, and should be distinguished from open-ended games with no objectives such as Sim City.
A sandbox-like structure of gameplay is featured prominently in the Grand Theft Auto franchise. Other games where players may ignore the game objectives and explore the world as a sandbox include Freelancer, and Crackdown.
This is what Comes after you click the link... Granted It dosent have anything to do with Changeing the world around you so ill give you that one. But It covers Every MMO i have ever played.. So your still wrong.
You're clearly missing the point here. Regardless of how you got to 60, you still had to do quests in order to get to the "end" of the game to experience the end-game content. That is linear. You were forced to do quests in order to level so that you could progress.
Secondly, there is no need for me to name any MMOs that aren't in the category I specified, as you named them yourself. I never stated Vanguard is a sandbox, but what I did state was that a sandbox is not determined by your effect on the world but your freedom.
And lastly, you cleary have difficulty understanding the difference between being forced to partake in certain activities in-game and not. I come back to the WoW example - in order to progress you HAD to level. The fact that you're even mentioning leveling regardless of it not being on your priority list is proof enough. If it were so unimportant you would never have needed to get to level 60 and you would never have had to mention it here. But you did. You had to kill mobs of increasing level and/or do quests in order to get to the level cap. That is linear. One area after another.
"You had to kill mobs of increasing level and/or do quests in order to get to the level cap. That is linear. One area after another. "
I missed out on the whole UO thing (I was too busy playing proper PnP RPG's! ), if you don't have increasing level based quests (or level based 'content') in an MMORPG, how do you increase the difficulty for players that have got high skill levels and special gear?
Serious question. Do new characters play alongside experienced characters without dying horribly?
Doesn't it just make inexperienced (new) characters stay in 'safe' areas until they have enough skill to cope with the bad guys who all have to be skilled and equipped to deal with the 'experienced' characters?
My experience in the PnP RPG area suggests that although a 'sandbox' non-levelling system looks good on paper, it doesn't work as well as it looks.
Having played Runequest, HERO, GURPS, as well as RoleMaster, D&D, and too many others to mention. It becomes obvious that although a new (non-level based) character might look equal to an experienced character in a non level based system, the new character will get turned to pulp if they try to go up agains the same challenges that an 'experienced' character does.
At the end of the day, what's the difference between a level 25 warrior and a 'sandbox person' with 65% sword skill?
If you are a level 1 warrior or a 'sandbox person' with only 15% sword skill, you get pulped if you go up against the more powerful person.
It's why D&D, RoleMaster, Rifts, Earthdawn, Etc... were just as popular (more so I'm sure) as RuneQuest, GURPS, HERO, Harn, Tribe 8, etc...
It allows for ease of play and working out what you can go up against and who you are matched to play with.
I have fond memories of playing in RuneQuest games with people who were playing Runelords (highly developed [earned and spent lots of experience on skills they wanted]), but in combat it was either a case of dying horribly if the GM put us up agianst something that would challenge the RuneLords or watching as the Runelords effortlessly killed off anything that would be a safe challenge for us lower level character.
Don't get me wrong. Runequest (2nd Ed.) is my favourite RPG of ALL time, but I'm curious how these 'sandbox' MMORPG's (with no helpful human GM to see you through 'sticky situations') deal with characters with varying levels of 'experience'?
Anyone with UO experience and Vanguard experience to compare, care to shed some light?
i dont think vanguard ever truly got off the ground following its disasterous launch . i would not be supprised if it does go the way of tabula rasa sometime next year . out of interest are any of the soe mmos in a good state ?
You don't have to quest in Vanguard if you don't want to.
You don't have to train skills in EvE if you don't want to.
Now if you want to experience the games. You probably would train skills and quest. EvE is just as linear as Vanguard. They just do a better job of tricking you into believing it's not. Trust me. I played the game for 4 years. I know.
In EvE you build stations. In Vanguard you build houses. In Eve you build ships. In Vanguard you build ships. In Eve you harvest materials. In Vanguard you harvest materials. In Eve you have blueprints. In Vanguard you get recipes. I'm failing to see how EvE is any more sandbox than Vanguard. Vanguard is not PvP so leave the Empire building out of the discussion.
Vanguard doesn't have instances.. Eve does!
I consider Vanguard a sandbox. I really don't care if you feel that is wrong.
Basically these descriptions of games vary immensely from person to person, its a matter of opinion.
I personally think VG is more a Sandbox than a Roller coaster but the definition of Sandbox changes daily on this site...
Who cares?
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS) Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
"You had to kill mobs of increasing level and/or do quests in order to get to the level cap. That is linear. One area after another. " I missed out on the whole UO thing (I was too busy playing proper PnP RPG's! ), if you don't have increasing level based quests (or level based 'content') in an MMORPG, how do you increase the difficulty for players that have got high skill levels and special gear? Serious question. Do new characters play alongside experienced characters without dying horribly? Doesn't it just make inexperienced (new) characters stay in 'safe' areas until they have enough skill to cope with the bad guys who all have to be skilled and equipped to deal with the 'experienced' characters? My experience in the PnP RPG area suggests that although a 'sandbox' non-levelling system looks good on paper, it doesn't work as well as it looks. Having played Runequest, HERO, GURPS, as well as RoleMaster, D&D, and too many others to mention. It becomes obvious that although a new (non-level based) character might look equal to an experienced character in a non level based system, the new character will get turned to pulp if they try to go up agains the same challenges that an 'experienced' character does. At the end of the day, what's the difference between a level 25 warrior and a 'sandbox person' with 65% sword skill? If you are a level 1 warrior or a 'sandbox person' with only 15% sword skill, you get pulped if you go up against the more powerful person. It's why D&D, RoleMaster, Rifts, Earthdawn, Etc... were just as popular (more so I'm sure) as RuneQuest, GURPS, HERO, Harn, Tribe 8, etc... It allows for ease of play and working out what you can go up against and who you are matched to play with. I have fond memories of playing in RuneQuest games with people who were playing Runelords (highly developed [earned and spent lots of experience on skills they wanted]), but in combat it was either a case of dying horribly if the GM put us up agianst something that would challenge the RuneLords or watching as the Runelords effortlessly killed off anything that would be a safe challenge for us lower level character. Don't get me wrong. Runequest (2nd Ed.) is my favourite RPG of ALL time, but I'm curious how these 'sandbox' MMORPG's (with no helpful human GM to see you through 'sticky situations') deal with characters with varying levels of 'experience'? Anyone with UO experience and Vanguard experience to compare, care to shed some light?
I also would like an answer to what you are asking. Both directly and indirectly.
What is the difference beetwen leveling up from 10 to 11 or collect enough valuables/skill points get the next better equipment/skill ?
Comments
By simply googling "define:Sandbox game" the following is the result:
A sandbox game (or a video game with an optional sandbox mode) is a video game with an open-ended and non-linear style of gameplay...
My point.
Ok so by your Deff Most mmos lik wow are Sandboxs? The only real theampark games are Guildwars or what?
there are 20 Diffrent Deff's of sand box on this fourm. Wiki Dosent make you Instantly right. And there is a Big Diff from a MMO to GTA.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
Full Groups? Not sure. there are allways people LFGing everywhere and at all lvls. Even 50 now.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
You are Wrong on Sandbox. Sanbox Means that You the player can Have some to Great Effect on the world. In Vanguard You have NONE. Like you said tho, it is "Free Range" Or "Open Theam Park"
Course Most MMO's are Open theam. There never was Anyone on WOW telling me I had to do this Next set of quests.. Heck i spent most of my time Dooing other things from what most people do in that game. (And i lvled Ungodly slow because of it).
ATM I can not think of a True Sandbox game.Edit Eve is one Old Starwars was a Sandbox game and UO was the Biggest and Most True Sandbox game there was. Both have been Butched from that tho.
In Vanguard I have yet to Do a Dungen. Not TK Not anything. Wanted to. But just havent. Prohaps its time. Im lvl 22 atm With a Brother Hood thats all Unsubscribed.
Your definition is wrong. Sandbox has nothing to do with impact on world (That's actually usually the exact opposite). Sandbox is simply nonlinear world with no barriers, no invisible walls, no impassable terrain, no level requirements for anything.
Er...no. While the definition is somewhat open ended, you're parameters are almost never part of it. (except the part about level requirements). And yes, in almost all Sandbox style games, a player can definitely have impact on the world, sometimes quite significantly.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_game#Sandbox_mode
But back on topic. Is VG dying? I think a game needs a pulse first before it can die.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
OK. I have to intervene here, because i love the concept of VG and its world, but in the "sandbox" departament this game is a failure. It has leveling, bind equipment, skills learned by classes every 2 levels. The world is not zoned but your actions are constrained by levels of quests and mobs, so i fail to see any sandboxiness...in this case it is JUST like WOW.
Sorry
PS: and don't get me started on the sandboxiness of PVP :P
You are Wrong on Sandbox. Sanbox Means that You the player can Have some to Great Effect on the world. In Vanguard You have NONE. Like you said tho, it is "Free Range" Or "Open Theam Park"
Course Most MMO's are Open theam. There never was Anyone on WOW telling me I had to do this Next set of quests.. Heck i spent most of my time Dooing other things from what most people do in that game. (And i lvled Ungodly slow because of it).
ATM I can not think of a True Sandbox game.Edit Eve is one Old Starwars was a Sandbox game and UO was the Biggest and Most True Sandbox game there was. Both have been Butched from that tho.
In Vanguard I have yet to Do a Dungen. Not TK Not anything. Wanted to. But just havent. Prohaps its time. Im lvl 22 atm With a Brother Hood thats all Unsubscribed.
Your definition is wrong. Sandbox has nothing to do with impact on world (That's actually usually the exact opposite).<<Plz explain Sandbox is simply nonlinear world with no barriers, no invisible walls, no impassable terrain, no level requirements for anything.
So were back to Old UO and Eve as the only 2 Sandboxes.. So be it.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
Yes, only these 2 games are really sandbox...
Id say 250k Boxes sold at Launch was a Good Pulse. To bad the Subject Crashed(Literaly) Right after.
Its sad that the Devs arn't trying at all to get those 250k to resub. they are trying to go for the eq2/wow (Im not sure tbh) Groups.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
Yes, only these 2 games are really sandbox...
Got a third? id like to try it.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
On Topic!!!!!
Its Limping right now. If it Rebreaks its Legs or Heals and walks is up to soe.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
Uhm, not so impressing. EQ2 have that in Kelanthin just. They should merge the servers more.
The game surey isn't dead but that is mostly because SOE is running it, their system make small games work too. NC soft would have killed it a long time ago.
I played Vanguard from release to about a year ago when I moved on to LOTRO. It held my undivided attention for a whole year.
Based on my experience playing it, I would say that the crafting was the best I have experienced. Each crafting profession had a very well thought out progression and was very well integrated with the other crafts. There was a lot of versatility in carpentry in shipbuilding, high tier furniture and decorating. Carpentry was not only a very lucrative business, but a lot of fun too. Among the best moments for me was helping to build our guildhall. We were entertained for weeks on end mining granite and working the diplomatic circles. The experience was a fun bonding agent for the entire guild. Excellent concept and very well thought out.
The classes were balanced. The quest system was interesting and dungeoncrawling was challenging and a lot of fun.
The problem with Vanguard was that once you hit 50 in all spheres, there was not much to do, so you moved on.
I don't know what has happened in the last year. Around the time when I left, the changes in mob spawn bothered me. All the great places we crafters had used for harvesting high tier resources in peace and quiet were riddled with elite and high level mobs. I guess the developers did not understand that crafters are a different breed from everyday adventurers. Although crafters generally love to kill mobs and dungeon crawl, when they are harvesting resources, many times solo, they dont want a group of elites popping around the granite. When crafters harvest, they usually are in a mood for a quiet relaxing time. If they weren't they would be in a dungeon somewhere.
These changes implemented about a year after release, disturbed already established player routines and detracted from the enjoyment of the game. In my case, I moved on and so did many of my friends.
If Vanguard is in a subscription lull at the moment, its developers should think a little on what changes they have implemented that have disillusioned the player base. They have a great concept, they have a great game. The way the continents and factions are set up have excellent potential for great RvR a la Warhammer and DAoC. Give crafters and harvesters some love and introduce RvR style pvp at 50 and I'll be dusting off my leatherworker and carpenter in the blink of an eye. Unfortunately, that is unlikely. Developers rarely listen to player feedback. So... there is always LOTRO, Warhammer and soon Darkfall. Vanguard is now a pleasant memory of a different time and place.
Firstly, that wasn't my definition. So no, not by my definition. But I 100% agree with it. Secondly, said definition clearly states "non-linear style of gaming." WoW most definitely posseses a linear style of gaming. You said so yourself. Though you may not have leveled quickly, you were eventually forced to in order to progress in the game. The point of WoW is to level up via questing/grinding (moving from area to area fighting mobs suited to your level - linear) and eventually raid and/or partake in PvP. You may choose to do it slowly but the point is that if you stick with the way the game was designed, you're going to end up there. Sure you may have the ability to craft and you're not forced to level, but the core aspect of the gameplay is to level. The only way to do that is quest or grind. It's linear.
So, coming back to the definition - a sandbox game is open-ended and non-linear. You aren't forced to partake in a particular activity in order to progress in the game without serious difficulty. The Saga of Ryzom, for example, is a sandbox game. You can do what you want and when you want, but your actions have no effect on the greater scheme of things. It is in no way linear.
there are over 1000 people on at peak on seradon. I did a check last week when someone was discussing this in the eq2 forums where I did a complete breakdowns of seradon and antonica balye at the same time. Seradon not only had more people but it had a better level range for people to play with. ie more low level people. Like 6 months ago I profiled wow as well and wow was had a few more people on my server but far far less at lower levels. 90% of everyone on wow servers are max levels or were 6 months ago.
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Ethion
Firstly, that wasn't my definition. So no, not by my definition. But I 100% agree with it. Secondly, said definition clearly states "non-linear style of gaming." WoW most definitely posseses a linear style of gaming. You said so yourself. Though you may not have leveled quickly, you were eventually forced to in order to progress in the game. (read my post I DIDENT Do the quests that they said to do and I lvled slow. at 60 when i Quit I had done ONE Dungeon thats it. I did Quests in parts of the World My friends had never even seen. So by your DEFF I Bucked the theam park and Played it like a sand box)The point of WoW is to level up via questing/grinding (moving from area to area fighting mobs suited to your level - linear) and eventually raid and/or partake in PvP. You may choose to do it slowly but the point is that if you stick with the way the game was designed, you're going to end up there.(Coverd above) Sure you may have the ability to craft and you're not forced to level, but the core aspect of the gameplay is to level. The only way to do that is quest or grind. It's linear. Name a MMO thats NOT in this catagory. Aside from Eve and UO. Vanguard sure as Heck aint in this area.
So, coming back to the definition - a sandbox game is open-ended and non-linear. You aren't forced to partake in a particular activity in order to progress in the game without serious difficulty. The Saga of Ryzom, for example, is a sandbox game. You can do what you want and when you want, but your actions have no effect on the greater scheme of things. It is in no way linear. So By your Own Deff Its not a sandbox game... thank you.
Sandbox mode
In a game with a sandbox mode, a player may turn off or ignore game objectives. This can open up possibilities that were not intended by the game designer. A sandbox mode is an option in otherwise goal-oriented games, and should be distinguished from open-ended games with no objectives such as Sim City.
A sandbox-like structure of gameplay is featured prominently in the Grand Theft Auto franchise. Other games where players may ignore the game objectives and explore the world as a sandbox include Freelancer, and Crackdown.
This is what Comes after you click the link... Granted It dosent have anything to do with Changeing the world around you so ill give you that one. But It covers Every MMO i have ever played.. So your still wrong.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
"Game Dying?"
Is the question: "Does Vanguard have enough subscribers to maintain it?"
I dunno. Maybe $O£ can answer that question.
I reckon if you asked Blizzard, they would probably have heart failure while rolling around on the floor laughing at you. But then, that would be true if you asked them about any other MMORPG, wouldn't it?
If the question is: "Is the game as bad as it was at launch and therefore not worth starting to play now or coming back to?"
I think it's very good with very few bugs or problems (just some minor graphical glitches that I've seen) and people keep commenting (in game) about how much it's improved over the last year and a bit. The developers seem to have their noses to the grindstone and are just getting on with improving it (OK, and yeah - putting in things they promised at the start). If you like an EQ2 style game but with greater options for starting play you will enjoy it, if you don't - there are many other games out there to tempt you, some probably better, some probably worse, but none with that interesting Vanguard fantasy feel.
Are the servers busy?
Not according to the WoW scale of things, no. It's dead according to the WoW scale of things. Along with every other game out there with less than 12 million subscribers.
Currently playing: Vanguard: SOH
Firstly, that wasn't my definition. So no, not by my definition. But I 100% agree with it. Secondly, said definition clearly states "non-linear style of gaming." WoW most definitely posseses a linear style of gaming. You said so yourself. Though you may not have leveled quickly, you were eventually forced to in order to progress in the game. (read my post I DIDENT Do the quests that they said to do and I lvled slow. at 60 when i Quit I had done ONE Dungeon thats it. I did Quests in parts of the World My friends had never even seen. So by your DEFF I Bucked the theam park and Played it like a sand box)The point of WoW is to level up via questing/grinding (moving from area to area fighting mobs suited to your level - linear) and eventually raid and/or partake in PvP. You may choose to do it slowly but the point is that if you stick with the way the game was designed, you're going to end up there.(Coverd above) Sure you may have the ability to craft and you're not forced to level, but the core aspect of the gameplay is to level. The only way to do that is quest or grind. It's linear. Name a MMO thats NOT in this catagory. Aside from Eve and UO. Vanguard sure as Heck aint in this area.
So, coming back to the definition - a sandbox game is open-ended and non-linear. You aren't forced to partake in a particular activity in order to progress in the game without serious difficulty. The Saga of Ryzom, for example, is a sandbox game. You can do what you want and when you want, but your actions have no effect on the greater scheme of things. It is in no way linear. So By your Own Deff Its not a sandbox game... thank you.
Sandbox mode
In a game with a sandbox mode, a player may turn off or ignore game objectives. This can open up possibilities that were not intended by the game designer. A sandbox mode is an option in otherwise goal-oriented games, and should be distinguished from open-ended games with no objectives such as Sim City.
A sandbox-like structure of gameplay is featured prominently in the Grand Theft Auto franchise. Other games where players may ignore the game objectives and explore the world as a sandbox include Freelancer, and Crackdown.
This is what Comes after you click the link... Granted It dosent have anything to do with Changeing the world around you so ill give you that one. But It covers Every MMO i have ever played.. So your still wrong.
You're clearly missing the point here. Regardless of how you got to 60, you still had to do quests in order to get to the "end" of the game to experience the end-game content. That is linear. You were forced to do quests in order to level so that you could progress.
Secondly, there is no need for me to name any MMOs that aren't in the category I specified, as you named them yourself. I never stated Vanguard is a sandbox, but what I did state was that a sandbox is not determined by your effect on the world but your freedom.
And lastly, you cleary have difficulty understanding the difference between being forced to partake in certain activities in-game and not. I come back to the WoW example - in order to progress you HAD to level. The fact that you're even mentioning leveling regardless of it not being on your priority list is proof enough. If it were so unimportant you would never have needed to get to level 60 and you would never have had to mention it here. But you did. You had to kill mobs of increasing level and/or do quests in order to get to the level cap. That is linear. One area after another.
Sorry, but Vanguard is about as much a sandbox game as a tennis shoe is. Calling Vanguard a sandbox game is insulting to good games that were sandbox.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
I never said Vanguard is sandbox (if your post is directed at me).
"You had to kill mobs of increasing level and/or do quests in order to get to the level cap. That is linear. One area after another. "
I missed out on the whole UO thing (I was too busy playing proper PnP RPG's!
), if you don't have increasing level based quests (or level based 'content') in an MMORPG, how do you increase the difficulty for players that have got high skill levels and special gear?
Serious question. Do new characters play alongside experienced characters without dying horribly?
Doesn't it just make inexperienced (new) characters stay in 'safe' areas until they have enough skill to cope with the bad guys who all have to be skilled and equipped to deal with the 'experienced' characters?
My experience in the PnP RPG area suggests that although a 'sandbox' non-levelling system looks good on paper, it doesn't work as well as it looks.
Having played Runequest, HERO, GURPS, as well as RoleMaster, D&D, and too many others to mention. It becomes obvious that although a new (non-level based) character might look equal to an experienced character in a non level based system, the new character will get turned to pulp if they try to go up agains the same challenges that an 'experienced' character does.
At the end of the day, what's the difference between a level 25 warrior and a 'sandbox person' with 65% sword skill?
If you are a level 1 warrior or a 'sandbox person' with only 15% sword skill, you get pulped if you go up against the more powerful person.
It's why D&D, RoleMaster, Rifts, Earthdawn, Etc... were just as popular (more so I'm sure) as RuneQuest, GURPS, HERO, Harn, Tribe 8, etc...
It allows for ease of play and working out what you can go up against and who you are matched to play with.
I have fond memories of playing in RuneQuest games with people who were playing Runelords (highly developed [earned and spent lots of experience on skills they wanted]), but in combat it was either a case of dying horribly if the GM put us up agianst something that would challenge the RuneLords or watching as the Runelords effortlessly killed off anything that would be a safe challenge for us lower level character.
Don't get me wrong. Runequest (2nd Ed.) is my favourite RPG of ALL time, but I'm curious how these 'sandbox' MMORPG's (with no helpful human GM to see you through 'sticky situations') deal with characters with varying levels of 'experience'?
Anyone with UO experience and Vanguard experience to compare, care to shed some light?
Currently playing: Vanguard: SOH
i dont think vanguard ever truly got off the ground following its disasterous launch . i would not be supprised if it does go the way of tabula rasa sometime next year . out of interest are any of the soe mmos in a good state ?
I think EQ2 is still strong although I don't play. Just got an expansion, seems to be their cash cow.
As for Sandbox, it doesn't really matter tbh. A game is what it is. Unless you're writing your thesis on MMORPGs then I wouldn't be too concerned.
You don't have to quest in Vanguard if you don't want to.
You don't have to train skills in EvE if you don't want to.
Now if you want to experience the games. You probably would train skills and quest. EvE is just as linear as Vanguard. They just do a better job of tricking you into believing it's not. Trust me. I played the game for 4 years. I know.
In EvE you build stations. In Vanguard you build houses. In Eve you build ships. In Vanguard you build ships. In Eve you harvest materials. In Vanguard you harvest materials. In Eve you have blueprints. In Vanguard you get recipes. I'm failing to see how EvE is any more sandbox than Vanguard. Vanguard is not PvP so leave the Empire building out of the discussion.
Vanguard doesn't have instances.. Eve does!
I consider Vanguard a sandbox. I really don't care if you feel that is wrong.
Make a difference!
Who cares if Eve is a sand box and VG isn't?
Who cares if VG is more of a sand box than Eve?
Basically these descriptions of games vary immensely from person to person, its a matter of opinion.
I personally think VG is more a Sandbox than a Roller coaster but the definition of Sandbox changes daily on this site...
Who cares?
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS)
Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
I also would like an answer to what you are asking. Both directly and indirectly.
What is the difference beetwen leveling up from 10 to 11 or collect enough valuables/skill points get the next better equipment/skill ?
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
vanguard isnt dead on the pve servers but dead on the pvp server just because of the no reward system and lack of balancing the classes.
gu7 hopefully can change a lot of this but if you really want to get a sense of the game go to their official forums.
http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/forums/list.m