So you think that making a huge marketing campaign just to sell boxes for a crappy game is better than no marketting campaign and relying on the quality of your game to sell it? That is really dumb.
Darkfall seems to be going the route of Eve. Granted I don't think Eve had the hype level pre-release that DF has, but Darkfall is relying on the quality of their game. If they have a good game, word will spread, and populations will gradually increase. This gives you a smaller group of long term users. If the game is bad, word will spread and it will die.
This is much better than launching a huge marketting campaign in an attempt to trick people into buying your game just so you can make money off of box sales knowing people are going to quit because the game sucks.
As arrogant as Tasos seems, I do respect the fact that they haven't(whether by choice, or just because of financial reasons) haven't marketed DF and are solely relying on the game being good.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
So you think that making a huge marketing campaign just to sell boxes for a crappy game is better than no marketting campaign and relying on the quality of your game to sell it? That is really dumb. Darkfall seems to be going the route of Eve. Granted I don't think Eve had the hype level pre-release that DF has, but Darkfall is relying on the quality of their game. If they have a good game, word will spread, and populations will gradually increase. This gives you a smaller group of long term users. If the game is bad, word will spread and it will die. This is much better than launching a huge marketting campaign in an attempt to trick people into buying your game just so you can make money off of box sales knowing people are going to quit because the game sucks. As arrogant as Tasos seems, I do respect the fact that they haven't(whether by choice, or just because of financial reasons) haven't marketed DF and are solely relying on the game being good.
Attention Trolls:
Above I have quoted a vocal skeptic who is able to present his ideas with this crazy thing called support and actually have a discussion on these boards.
See it is possible for someone to be skeptical about Darkfall and not bash it blindly at every opportunity and actually have good discussion by posting with actual arguements and support.
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
OK, when I said "Tell me how much..." in regards to WoW marketing, I was putting the challenge on people like the OP.
My point was, they did NOT have the marketing they have now. Not even close. Not even in the same ballpark. WoW became a huge success though. In fact, I wonder why they started having ads at all? I'm pretty sure the TV ads (when they came out) didn't do much.
Again i cant remember so im going to assume you are right.
In which case im glad DF is doing, sorta, the same thing WoW did prerelease...if their product is as good as WoW it will be a success.
LOL at people saying DF should have a "proper" marketing strategy prerelease....and then say that proper is like AoC and WAR. If WoW did it differently....well then this convo is over and it is clear what side is correct.
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
Why should they spent money on advertising? AoC is still advertising, and I can't help myself laughing at them... Darkfall on the other hand has the best publicity a company can wish for. And it's 100% free! WoW is getting ove r2-3 million players avery year, while they barely advertise at all. We all know why, and Darkfall has the same kind of publicity.
You said at least 10 dumb things in your post. I'm too lazy to respond to all of them but I will say this:
Darkfall is well known in THIS community. This small MMORPG.com forum freak community. In the REAL WORLD nobody has ever even heard of the game. While it may seem to you that DF is very talked about here, please try to understand how small this community is.
Even though DF is FFA, there is a lot of POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS out there. That's where MARKETING comes to play. Or at least it should. Word-of-mouth will help the game grow if the game is good but it would still be really DUMB not to do any marketing before launch.
WoW has done tons of prime time TV-ADS. Enough said.
you're right, pre-launch marketing will net mabye DOUBLE the people that are going to be in it for launch. Alot of people seriously discount the HUGE market that would love to see a game like DF come out, sure a lot of people in this community hate the idea of ffa pvp, but look to your left, all the released games listed don't even resemble DF, no wonder this mmo crowd woudnn't like DF (and a lot of them do too, this is one of the most active forums in mmorpg.com).
BUT, if they spent money in ads, they would stretch their INCREDIBLY THIN budget instead of working on their game. All the ads in the world can't make a game good. Mmo's can't sell purely on hype because you can't sell it to people and take their money (and only later they realize it was crap, such as the several who bought assassins creed), you have to deliver and keep people hooked so hyping a product of lies and getting a lot of subs in the 1st month would lead to disaster in the long run(especially since there's a free trial= if the game is crappy, people will know before they buy a sub). Though launch is DEFINATELY the most important time of an mmo and may prophecise the rest of the mmo's life, DF has enough public interest for them not to put anything into ads at all (it has ALOT more than many games that spent millions on ads...), their strategy is to slowly branch out into avg wii people's lives like EvE did.
Marketing expert guy(hook), refer to the widely hyped(line) Age of Conan(sinker)
Also, I love people that try to claim they know anything about marketing, yet they don't realize that normal marketing does NOT apply to most things on the internet.
So you think that making a huge marketing campaign just to sell boxes for a crappy game is better than no marketting campaign and relying on the quality of your game to sell it? That is really dumb. Darkfall seems to be going the route of Eve. Granted I don't think Eve had the hype level pre-release that DF has, but Darkfall is relying on the quality of their game. If they have a good game, word will spread, and populations will gradually increase. This gives you a smaller group of long term users. If the game is bad, word will spread and it will die. This is much better than launching a huge marketting campaign in an attempt to trick people into buying your game just so you can make money off of box sales knowing people are going to quit because the game sucks. As arrogant as Tasos seems, I do respect the fact that they haven't(whether by choice, or just because of financial reasons) haven't marketed DF and are solely relying on the game being good.
Attention Trolls:
Above I have quoted a vocal skeptic who is able to present his ideas with this crazy thing called support and actually have a discussion on these boards.
See it is possible for someone to be skeptical about Darkfall and not bash it blindly at every opportunity and actually have good discussion by posting with actual arguements and support.
Trolls should take notes.
Well thank you.
As I had said before, I was only skeptical of the game and what the developers were telling us, not that I wanted the game to fail. Now that we have a definitive release date, the only thing people should be worried about now is them making that date and the game being good. Continuing to bash the game for no reason is pretty stupid and at this point, is just for the sake of trolling and arguing. You can still be skeptical about if they will release on time and if it will contain what they say it will, but anything else is simply trolling.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
You said at least 10 dumb things in your post. I'm too lazy to respond to all of them but I will say this: Darkfall is well known in THIS community. This small MMORPG.com forum freak community. In the REAL WORLD nobody has ever even heard of the game. While it may seem to you that DF is very talked about here, please try to understand how small this community is. Even though DF is FFA, there is a lot of POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS out there. That's where MARKETING comes to play. Or at least it should. Word-of-mouth will help the game grow if the game is good but it would still be really DUMB not to do any marketing before launch. WoW has done tons of prime time TV-ADS. Enough said.
Ever thought about the fact that DF doesn't want to be like WoW? For a lot of people, WoW is/was their first MMORPG. While DF is obviously aiming for the more hardcore crowd, not the casual gamer. And for the commercials, looks like they never even made it to Europe... Does that mean WoW should advertise more in Europe? No, everybody already knows the game from the news etc.
You know it, the best way to realize your dreams is waking up and start moving, never lose hope and always keep up.
So you think that making a huge marketing campaign just to sell boxes for a crappy game is better than no marketting campaign and relying on the quality of your game to sell it? That is really dumb.
Sorry but what is dumb is your post.
Listen to this. MARKETING DOES NOT AFFECT THE QUALITY OF THE GAME.
These 2 things you said..
1. "making a huge marketing campaign just to sell boxes for a crappy game"
2. "no marketting campaign and relying on the quality of your game to sell it"
..are not the all the different possible outcomes.
There are actually 4 possibilities:
1. Bad game + average marketing campaign = 100k subs at launch. 10k after one year
2. Bad game + no marketing = 50k subs at launch, 10k after one year
3. Good game + average marketing campaign = 100k subs at launch. 150k after one year
4. Good game + no marketing = 50k subs at launch, 100k after one year
Now I pulled these numbers out of my ass but what I'm trying to say is that there is not a situation where marketing was a bad move. It always helps.
Bottom line is that if the game sucks, people will quit. If the game is good, they will stay. Marketing only helps to get that initial boost in box sales.
So you think that making a huge marketing campaign just to sell boxes for a crappy game is better than no marketting campaign and relying on the quality of your game to sell it? That is really dumb.
Sorry but what is dumb is your post.
Listen to this. MARKETING DOES NOT AFFECT THE QUALITY OF THE GAME.
These 2 things you said..
1. "making a huge marketing campaign just to sell boxes for a crappy game"
2. "no marketting campaign and relying on the quality of your game to sell it"
..are not the all the different possible outcomes.
There are actually 4 possibilities:
1. Bad game + average marketing campaign = 100k subs at launch. 10k after one year
2. Bad game + no marketing = 50k subs at launch, 10k after one year
3. Good game + average marketing campaign = 100k subs at launch. 150k after one year
4. Good game + no marketing = 50k subs at launch, 100k after one year
Now I pulled these numbers out of my ass but what I'm trying to say is that there is not a situation where marketing was a bad move. It always helps.
Bottom line is that if the game sucks, people will quit. If the game is good, they will stay. Marketing only helps to get that initial boost in box sales.
The difference being if the game sucks and the marketting is good, the company will still cheat many people out of $50 before realizeing the game sucks. If the game sucks with no marketting campaign, people won't be fooled into wasting their money on a game that is no where near what was claimed, so the consumer wins. Just look at AoC. I am pissed that I fell for the marketting hype and wasted $50 on that piece of crap. Since Darkfall really hasn't mareketted their game, the only way they will make money is if the game is good. In this case, they are relying on a good game to make money instead of a good marketting campaign like AoC had. I prefer Darkfall's method, where you live or die by your game, not by your hype.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
So you think that making a huge marketing campaign just to sell boxes for a crappy game is better than no marketting campaign and relying on the quality of your game to sell it? That is really dumb.
Bottom line is that if the game sucks, people will quit. If the game is good, they will stay. Marketing only helps to get that initial boost in box sales.
Christ no one disagrees with you on this point.
Obviously marketing helps get initial box sales.
Point is that in this industry...initial sales mean almost nothing when you compare it to the ability to maintain subcriptions after release and build subscription numbers.
This genre is skeptical about new releases after AoC (market research anyone) and it would be a waste to do what they did.
Darkfall chooses to understand that they have built up PLENTY of initial interest to have a huge release if it goes smoothly and their product is quality. They arent out for the quick buck.
Maintaining subs = more important than the initial box sales.
And if they dont have the manpower, money, or desire to have a huge marketing campaign....that is NOT a bad thing in the sense that it makes them poor business men or signs of a failing game like the troll op suggested.
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
The idea that it is is one of the things deeply wrong with this country.
"Who cares if we have a crap product, as long as we market it right; idiots will buy it!"
Apple by no means makes crappy products; most of them are very high quality. But it's extremely saddening when their vast success cannot be attributed to the quality of their products (even though some are overpriced), but their marketing - which IS very often false, inaccurate, and deceptive.
I'm certainly not anti-Apple biased, but I do lose faith in humanity when I see all the yuppie trendsters who buy fashionable accessories without knowing a thing about what they're buying. And then loudly tout the virtues of their iDevices as fact, cause they saw it on a commercial.
As for Darkfall, let's see how it stacks up against two other talked about upcoming MMOS...
Per Alexa.com:
Darkfallonline.com: ranked 28,909
Aiononline.com: ranked 38,820
Tcos.com: ranked 57,928
Oh shit!
Age of Conan is ranked 10,446, but even a fraction of Conan's subscriber numbers would be a huge success for Darkfall.
By the way, it can't be linked cause it'll timeout, but compare Darkfallonline.com and Ageofconan.com's daily pageviews. In the last month, the two have been nearly equal in pageviews. Hmm.
I guess people must be psychic to know about a game that doesn't market itself. I mean, it's not like humans have the ability to communicate amongst themselves or anything.
Even beyond its features, if Darkfall succeeds I'll additionally be happy and view it as a small victory that word of mouth advertising and grassroots campaigns are not dead in a world where big businesses and their "marketing" departments tell you what to like.
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
BUT, if they spent money in ads, they would stretch their INCREDIBLY THIN budget instead of working on their game. All the ads in the world can't make a game good. Mmo's can't sell purely on hype because you can't sell it to people and take their money (and only later they realize it was crap, such as the several who bought assassins creed), you have to deliver and keep people hooked so hyping a product of lies and getting a lot of subs in the 1st month would lead to disaster in the long run(especially since there's a free trial= if the game is crappy, people will know before they buy a sub). Though launch is DEFINATELY the most important time of an mmo and may prophecise the rest of the mmo's life, DF has enough public interest for them not to put anything into ads at all (it has ALOT more than many games that spent millions on ads...), their strategy is to slowly branch out into avg wii people's lives like EvE did. Marketing expert guy(hook), refer to the widely hyped(line) Age of Conan(sinker)
Yes, you are right. I'm not saying they should spend their last pennies on some tv-adds or something. I was just responding to people who said DF marketing was "good" or "enough".
Then only reason Aventurine is not doing a marketing campaign is because THEY HAVE NO MONEY FOR IT. If they did, you would see adds everywhere. That said, there IS a lot of marketing you CAN do with a small budget. I hope they can some cash somewhere so they can do some marketing for at least 2 weeksbefore the launch.
About Age of Conan.. problem with that game was not too much marketing. It was the KIND of marketing they had. Their marketing strategy was to lie to potential customers about EVERYTHING. I've seen many Erling Ellingsen interview where he blatantly LIES and bends the truth. That was not a smart thing to do.
Funcom should have concentrated their marketing efforts around the stuff that they DID have. It wouldn't have been quite as effective as what they did do, but then again meybe 90% of players wouldn't have quit the game. some people hate is when devs lie and steal their money.
The difference being if the game sucks and the marketting is good, the company will still cheat many people out of $50 before realizeing the game sucks. If the game sucks with no marketting campaign, people won't be fooled into wasting their money on a game that is no where near what was claimed, so the consumer wins. Just look at AoC. I am pissed that I fell for the marketting hype and wasted $50 on that piece of crap. Since Darkfall really hasn't mareketted their game, the only way they will make money is if the game is good. In this case, they are relying on a good game to make money instead of a good marketting campaign like AoC had. I prefer Darkfall's method, where you live or die by your game, not by your hype.
You seem to be confusing MARKETING with LYING. They are not the same thing, though some people seem to think so
Here's an example:
1. You see an ad by Aventurine: "Buy Darkfall, FFA, fool loot, PvP game!"
2. You see an ad by Funcom: "Buy Age of Conan, with DX10 included!"
Now lets say both these games suck. Big time.
Are you angry at Aventurine? No, because they didn't LIE, game only sucked. You move on.
Are you angry at Funcom? Yes, because they LIED about DX10 being in the game! You go to AoC forums and tell everyone how much the game sucks.
You CAN do marketing without lying. Just focus no what works and what actually is in the game.
Marketing is no substitute for quality. The idea that it is is one of the things deeply wrong with this country. "Who cares if we have a crap product, as long as we market it right; idiots will buy it!" Apple by no means makes crappy products; most of them are very high quality. But it's extremely saddening when their vast success cannot be attributed to the quality of their products (even though some are overpriced), but their marketing - which IS very often false, inaccurate, and deceptive. I'm certainly not anti-Apple biased, but I do lose faith in humanity when I see all the yuppie trendsters who buy fashionable accessories without knowing a thing about what they're buying. And then loudly tout the virtues of their iDevices as fact, cause they saw it on a commercial.
As for Darkfall, let's see how it stacks up against two other talked about upcoming MMOS... Per Alexa.com:
Darkfallonline.com: ranked 28,909
Aiononline.com: ranked 38,820
Tcos.com: ranked 57,928 Oh shit! Age of Conan is ranked 10,446, but even a fraction of Conan's subscriber numbers would be a huge success for Darkfall.
By the way, it can't be linked cause it'll timeout, but compare Darkfallonline.com and Ageofconan.com's daily pageviews. In the last month, the two have been nearly equal in pageviews. Hmm. I guess people must be psychic to know about a game that doesn't market itself. I mean, it's not like humans have the ability to communicate amongst themselves or anything.
Even beyond its features, if Darkfall succeeds I'll additionally be happy and view it as a small victory that word of mouth advertising and grassroots campaigns are not dead in a world where big businesses and their "marketing" departments tell you what to like.
Nicely said, and this is a big reason as to why I despise Apple.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
The difference being if the game sucks and the marketting is good, the company will still cheat many people out of $50 before realizeing the game sucks. If the game sucks with no marketting campaign, people won't be fooled into wasting their money on a game that is no where near what was claimed, so the consumer wins. Just look at AoC. I am pissed that I fell for the marketting hype and wasted $50 on that piece of crap. Since Darkfall really hasn't mareketted their game, the only way they will make money is if the game is good. In this case, they are relying on a good game to make money instead of a good marketting campaign like AoC had. I prefer Darkfall's method, where you live or die by your game, not by your hype.
You seem to be confusing MARKETING with LYING. They are not the same thing, though some people seem to think so
Here's an example:
1. You see an ad by Aventurine: "Buy Darkfall, FFA, fool loot, PvP game!"
2. You see an ad by Funcom: "Buy Age of Conan, with DX10 included!"
Now lets say both these games suck. Big time.
Are you angry at Aventurine? No, because they didn't LIE, game only sucked. You move on.
Are you angry at Funcom? Yes, because they LIED about DX10 being in the game! You go to AoC forums and tell everyone how much the game sucks.
You CAN do marketing without lying. Just focus no what works and what actually is in the game.
Get it?
Here's the problem. An ad won't do much in this saturated market ruled by WoW. Word of mouth is the BEST tool they can have. Also, why should they spend precious development money on advertisements when they want to make a great game (FIRST of all) and ads don't do much in this market?
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
The difference being if the game sucks and the marketting is good, the company will still cheat many people out of $50 before realizeing the game sucks. If the game sucks with no marketting campaign, people won't be fooled into wasting their money on a game that is no where near what was claimed, so the consumer wins. Just look at AoC. I am pissed that I fell for the marketting hype and wasted $50 on that piece of crap. Since Darkfall really hasn't mareketted their game, the only way they will make money is if the game is good. In this case, they are relying on a good game to make money instead of a good marketting campaign like AoC had. I prefer Darkfall's method, where you live or die by your game, not by your hype.
You seem to be confusing MARKETING with LYING. They are not the same thing, though some people seem to think so
Here's an example:
1. You see an ad by Aventurine: "Buy Darkfall, FFA, fool loot, PvP game!"
2. You see an ad by Funcom: "Buy Age of Conan, with DX10 included!"
Now lets say both these games suck. Big time.
Are you angry at Aventurine? No, because they didn't LIE, game only sucked. You move on.
Are you angry at Funcom? Yes, because they LIED about DX10 being in the game! You go to AoC forums and tell everyone how much the game sucks.
You CAN do marketing without lying. Just focus no what works and what actually is in the game.
Get it?
That is a good point, but the line between marketing and lying is often gray. So many marketers twist words and stretch the truth in order to make their product sound way better than it is. The Apple commercials are a great example.
But you are right, an ad campaign doesn't necessarily mean they are lying, but they are still hyping up their game. I'd still rather see a game successful because it was good rather than it had a good marketing campaign
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Here's the problem. An ad won't do much in this saturated market ruled by WoW. Word of mouth is the BEST tool they can have. Also, why should they spend precious development money on advertisements when they want to make a great game (FIRST of all) and ads don't do much in this market?
You have a source for those words of wisdom? Because I HAVE a source and my source says marketing works in this market .
This is perfect example of a regular guy trying to understand marketing. Look at this site. Why do you think there are ads here if they don't work? You don't think those banners get any hits?
I'm not saying word-of-mouth is not the best tool. Of course it is. But this is not a choice between marketing campaign and word-of-mouth. Word-of-mouth will be there no matter what other type of marketing Aventurine does.
To everyone who is reading this thread: Please understand that marketing is MORE than just ads.
Here's the problem. An ad won't do much in this saturated market ruled by WoW. Word of mouth is the BEST tool they can have. Also, why should they spend precious development money on advertisements when they want to make a great game (FIRST of all) and ads don't do much in this market?
You have a source for those words of wisdom? Because I HAVE a source and my source says marketing works in this market .
This is perfect example of a regular guy trying to understand marketing. Look at this site. Why do you think there are ads here if they don't work? You don't think those banners get any hits?
I'm not saying word-of-mouth is not the best tool. Of course it is. But this is not a choice between marketing campaign and word-of-mouth. Word-of-mouth will be there no matter what other type of marketing Aventurine does.
To everyone who is reading this thread: Please understand that marketing is MORE than just ads.
Do you honestly think the non-free2play MMOs advertised on this site are getting more subscriptions? I can show you the numbers of AOC and WAR if you like..
Also, you still haven't commented on the fact that WoW didn't advertise pre-launch like they do now..
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
That is a good point, but the line between marketing and lying is often gray. So many marketers twist words and stretch the truth in order to make their product sound way better than it is. The Apple commercials are a great example. But you are right, an ad campaign doesn't necessarily mean they are lying, but they are still hyping up their game. I'd still rather see a game successful because it was good rather than it had a good marketing campaign
I know what you mean. I despise lying so advertising was probably not a good career choice for me
The fact is Aventurine had no money for marketing and it's a real shame. It would have been good for them to bet a big launch. I personally believe that today MMO's that have a modest launch, will never reach their true potential because new games are coming so fast.
I am very worried that Darkfall is going to suck. All this secrecy surronding it.. it's never a good thing. But I truly hope I'm wrong and the game is good. If it is good I'm going to do all the word-of-mouth I can to get all my friends to subscribe.
That is a good point, but the line between marketing and lying is often gray. So many marketers twist words and stretch the truth in order to make their product sound way better than it is. The Apple commercials are a great example. But you are right, an ad campaign doesn't necessarily mean they are lying, but they are still hyping up their game. I'd still rather see a game successful because it was good rather than it had a good marketing campaign
I know what you mean. I despise lying so advertising was probably not a good career choice for me
The fact is Aventurine had no money for marketing and it's a real shame. It would have been good for them to bet a big launch. I personally believe that today MMO's that have a modest launch, will never reach their true potential because new games are coming so fast.
I am very worried that Darkfall is going to suck. All this secrecy surronding it.. it's never a good thing. But I truly hope I'm wrong and the game is good. If it is good I'm going to do all the word-of-mouth I can to get all my friends to subscribe.
And maybe, if they have enough money and they think that it will be worth it, they can focus more on marketing campaign now. Tasos already told like a year ago that they will focus on this more when the game is closer to release. To be honest, it is hard to do a marketing of a game when the release date is not even specified
Do you honestly think the non-free2play MMOs advertised on this site are getting more subscriptions? I can show you the numbers of AOC and WAR if you like.. Also, you still haven't commented on the fact that WoW didn't advertise pre-launch like they do now..
Yes, I think those banners help those games to get more subs. If they didn't, MMO companies wouldn't buy that ad space. Simple as that.
I don't know much about WoW advertising pre-launch or even what they do today. But I don't think we should compare WoW to MMO's that launch today.
WoW is not a game. It's a social phenomenon. WoW was the first "big" MMO so it doesn't have the same rules as MMO's of today do.
Also back then the MMO genre was so new, rules were different. Today there is no way an MMO can get 1 million subs without marketing. There's just so much competition.
Do you honestly think the non-free2play MMOs advertised on this site are getting more subscriptions? I can show you the numbers of AOC and WAR if you like.. Also, you still haven't commented on the fact that WoW didn't advertise pre-launch like they do now..
Yes, I think those banners help those games to get more subs. If they didn't, MMO companies wouldn't buy that ad space. Simple as that.
I don't know much about WoW advertising pre-launch or even what they do today. But I don't think we should compare WoW to MMO's that launch today.
WoW is not a game. It's a social phenomenon. WoW was the first "big" MMO so it doesn't have the same rules as MMO's of today do.
Also back then the MMO genre was so new, rules were different. Today there is no way an MMO can get 1 million subs without marketing. There's just so much competition.
Once again I disagree. All of the games that have more than a million subs (or players) had very little marketing. You claim that I don't understand marketing, but I certainly understand MMOs.
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Yeah, personally now that they are finally claiming a "release date" for the game, and that its "Done" according by what Tasos said, marketing it in more places than their own country would be a good idea. Personally, I only found the game by going through the quick gamelist while bored and seeing if any game caught my interest.
I'm the only one i know who has heard of the game, I have alot of friends online and off who love playing MMOs, and they havent heard of it either.
A game that I'm looking foreward to, Earth Rise, is getting more attention than DF and its not even in beta yet as far as I know. I
I'm not saying they need major advertising, but doing more than just having your name in the list would go a long way to help the game.
Do you honestly think the non-free2play MMOs advertised on this site are getting more subscriptions? I can show you the numbers of AOC and WAR if you like.. Also, you still haven't commented on the fact that WoW didn't advertise pre-launch like they do now..
Yes, I think those banners help those games to get more subs. If they didn't, MMO companies wouldn't buy that ad space. Simple as that.
I don't know much about WoW advertising pre-launch or even what they do today. But I don't think we should compare WoW to MMO's that launch today.
WoW is not a game. It's a social phenomenon. WoW was the first "big" MMO so it doesn't have the same rules as MMO's of today do.
Also back then the MMO genre was so new, rules were different. Today there is no way an MMO can get 1 million subs without marketing. There's just so much competition.
WoW 's roots are not in MMO genre ...it was really heretic to the values and the design of MMO...
Blizzard used their influence in other game genres (mainly RTS) and promised them to combine them all in one big MMO...
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Comments
So you think that making a huge marketing campaign just to sell boxes for a crappy game is better than no marketting campaign and relying on the quality of your game to sell it? That is really dumb.
Darkfall seems to be going the route of Eve. Granted I don't think Eve had the hype level pre-release that DF has, but Darkfall is relying on the quality of their game. If they have a good game, word will spread, and populations will gradually increase. This gives you a smaller group of long term users. If the game is bad, word will spread and it will die.
This is much better than launching a huge marketting campaign in an attempt to trick people into buying your game just so you can make money off of box sales knowing people are going to quit because the game sucks.
As arrogant as Tasos seems, I do respect the fact that they haven't(whether by choice, or just because of financial reasons) haven't marketed DF and are solely relying on the game being good.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Attention Trolls:
Above I have quoted a vocal skeptic who is able to present his ideas with this crazy thing called support and actually have a discussion on these boards.
See it is possible for someone to be skeptical about Darkfall and not bash it blindly at every opportunity and actually have good discussion by posting with actual arguements and support.
Trolls should take notes.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
Again i cant remember so im going to assume you are right.
In which case im glad DF is doing, sorta, the same thing WoW did prerelease...if their product is as good as WoW it will be a success.
LOL at people saying DF should have a "proper" marketing strategy prerelease....and then say that proper is like AoC and WAR. If WoW did it differently....well then this convo is over and it is clear what side is correct.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
You said at least 10 dumb things in your post. I'm too lazy to respond to all of them but I will say this:
Darkfall is well known in THIS community. This small MMORPG.com forum freak community. In the REAL WORLD nobody has ever even heard of the game. While it may seem to you that DF is very talked about here, please try to understand how small this community is.
Even though DF is FFA, there is a lot of POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS out there. That's where MARKETING comes to play. Or at least it should. Word-of-mouth will help the game grow if the game is good but it would still be really DUMB not to do any marketing before launch.
WoW has done tons of prime time TV-ADS. Enough said.
you're right, pre-launch marketing will net mabye DOUBLE the people that are going to be in it for launch. Alot of people seriously discount the HUGE market that would love to see a game like DF come out, sure a lot of people in this community hate the idea of ffa pvp, but look to your left, all the released games listed don't even resemble DF, no wonder this mmo crowd woudnn't like DF (and a lot of them do too, this is one of the most active forums in mmorpg.com).
BUT, if they spent money in ads, they would stretch their INCREDIBLY THIN budget instead of working on their game. All the ads in the world can't make a game good. Mmo's can't sell purely on hype because you can't sell it to people and take their money (and only later they realize it was crap, such as the several who bought assassins creed), you have to deliver and keep people hooked so hyping a product of lies and getting a lot of subs in the 1st month would lead to disaster in the long run(especially since there's a free trial= if the game is crappy, people will know before they buy a sub). Though launch is DEFINATELY the most important time of an mmo and may prophecise the rest of the mmo's life, DF has enough public interest for them not to put anything into ads at all (it has ALOT more than many games that spent millions on ads...), their strategy is to slowly branch out into avg wii people's lives like EvE did.
Marketing expert guy(hook), refer to the widely hyped(line) Age of Conan(sinker)
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
The irony in this thread is delicious.
Also, I love people that try to claim they know anything about marketing, yet they don't realize that normal marketing does NOT apply to most things on the internet.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Attention Trolls:
Above I have quoted a vocal skeptic who is able to present his ideas with this crazy thing called support and actually have a discussion on these boards.
See it is possible for someone to be skeptical about Darkfall and not bash it blindly at every opportunity and actually have good discussion by posting with actual arguements and support.
Trolls should take notes.
Well thank you.
As I had said before, I was only skeptical of the game and what the developers were telling us, not that I wanted the game to fail. Now that we have a definitive release date, the only thing people should be worried about now is them making that date and the game being good. Continuing to bash the game for no reason is pretty stupid and at this point, is just for the sake of trolling and arguing. You can still be skeptical about if they will release on time and if it will contain what they say it will, but anything else is simply trolling.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Ever thought about the fact that DF doesn't want to be like WoW? For a lot of people, WoW is/was their first MMORPG. While DF is obviously aiming for the more hardcore crowd, not the casual gamer. And for the commercials, looks like they never even made it to Europe... Does that mean WoW should advertise more in Europe? No, everybody already knows the game from the news etc.
You know it, the best way to realize your dreams is waking up and start moving, never lose hope and always keep up.
Sorry but what is dumb is your post.
Listen to this. MARKETING DOES NOT AFFECT THE QUALITY OF THE GAME.
These 2 things you said..
1. "making a huge marketing campaign just to sell boxes for a crappy game"
2. "no marketting campaign and relying on the quality of your game to sell it"
..are not the all the different possible outcomes.
There are actually 4 possibilities:
1. Bad game + average marketing campaign = 100k subs at launch. 10k after one year
2. Bad game + no marketing = 50k subs at launch, 10k after one year
3. Good game + average marketing campaign = 100k subs at launch. 150k after one year
4. Good game + no marketing = 50k subs at launch, 100k after one year
Now I pulled these numbers out of my ass but what I'm trying to say is that there is not a situation where marketing was a bad move. It always helps.
Bottom line is that if the game sucks, people will quit. If the game is good, they will stay. Marketing only helps to get that initial boost in box sales.
Sorry but what is dumb is your post.
Listen to this. MARKETING DOES NOT AFFECT THE QUALITY OF THE GAME.
These 2 things you said..
1. "making a huge marketing campaign just to sell boxes for a crappy game"
2. "no marketting campaign and relying on the quality of your game to sell it"
..are not the all the different possible outcomes.
There are actually 4 possibilities:
1. Bad game + average marketing campaign = 100k subs at launch. 10k after one year
2. Bad game + no marketing = 50k subs at launch, 10k after one year
3. Good game + average marketing campaign = 100k subs at launch. 150k after one year
4. Good game + no marketing = 50k subs at launch, 100k after one year
Now I pulled these numbers out of my ass but what I'm trying to say is that there is not a situation where marketing was a bad move. It always helps.
Bottom line is that if the game sucks, people will quit. If the game is good, they will stay. Marketing only helps to get that initial boost in box sales.
The difference being if the game sucks and the marketting is good, the company will still cheat many people out of $50 before realizeing the game sucks. If the game sucks with no marketting campaign, people won't be fooled into wasting their money on a game that is no where near what was claimed, so the consumer wins. Just look at AoC. I am pissed that I fell for the marketting hype and wasted $50 on that piece of crap. Since Darkfall really hasn't mareketted their game, the only way they will make money is if the game is good. In this case, they are relying on a good game to make money instead of a good marketting campaign like AoC had. I prefer Darkfall's method, where you live or die by your game, not by your hype.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Bottom line is that if the game sucks, people will quit. If the game is good, they will stay. Marketing only helps to get that initial boost in box sales.
Christ no one disagrees with you on this point.
Obviously marketing helps get initial box sales.
Point is that in this industry...initial sales mean almost nothing when you compare it to the ability to maintain subcriptions after release and build subscription numbers.
This genre is skeptical about new releases after AoC (market research anyone) and it would be a waste to do what they did.
Darkfall chooses to understand that they have built up PLENTY of initial interest to have a huge release if it goes smoothly and their product is quality. They arent out for the quick buck.
Maintaining subs = more important than the initial box sales.
And if they dont have the manpower, money, or desire to have a huge marketing campaign....that is NOT a bad thing in the sense that it makes them poor business men or signs of a failing game like the troll op suggested.
/thread
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
Marketing is no substitute for quality.
The idea that it is is one of the things deeply wrong with this country.
"Who cares if we have a crap product, as long as we market it right; idiots will buy it!"
Apple by no means makes crappy products; most of them are very high quality. But it's extremely saddening when their vast success cannot be attributed to the quality of their products (even though some are overpriced), but their marketing - which IS very often false, inaccurate, and deceptive.
I'm certainly not anti-Apple biased, but I do lose faith in humanity when I see all the yuppie trendsters who buy fashionable accessories without knowing a thing about what they're buying. And then loudly tout the virtues of their iDevices as fact, cause they saw it on a commercial.
As for Darkfall, let's see how it stacks up against two other talked about upcoming MMOS...
Per Alexa.com:
Darkfallonline.com: ranked 28,909
Aiononline.com: ranked 38,820
Tcos.com: ranked 57,928
Oh shit!
Age of Conan is ranked 10,446, but even a fraction of Conan's subscriber numbers would be a huge success for Darkfall.
By the way, it can't be linked cause it'll timeout, but compare Darkfallonline.com and Ageofconan.com's daily pageviews. In the last month, the two have been nearly equal in pageviews. Hmm.
I guess people must be psychic to know about a game that doesn't market itself. I mean, it's not like humans have the ability to communicate amongst themselves or anything.
Even beyond its features, if Darkfall succeeds I'll additionally be happy and view it as a small victory that word of mouth advertising and grassroots campaigns are not dead in a world where big businesses and their "marketing" departments tell you what to like.
This is exactly what the majority of the community wants in new MMOs...especially after the let downs of AoC, Vanguard, and maybe WAR a little.
Apparently DF is smart enough to go for the strategy that appeases the majority...and not the ignorant vocal minority.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
Yes, you are right. I'm not saying they should spend their last pennies on some tv-adds or something. I was just responding to people who said DF marketing was "good" or "enough".
Then only reason Aventurine is not doing a marketing campaign is because THEY HAVE NO MONEY FOR IT. If they did, you would see adds everywhere. That said, there IS a lot of marketing you CAN do with a small budget. I hope they can some cash somewhere so they can do some marketing for at least 2 weeksbefore the launch.
About Age of Conan.. problem with that game was not too much marketing. It was the KIND of marketing they had. Their marketing strategy was to lie to potential customers about EVERYTHING. I've seen many Erling Ellingsen interview where he blatantly LIES and bends the truth. That was not a smart thing to do.
Funcom should have concentrated their marketing efforts around the stuff that they DID have. It wouldn't have been quite as effective as what they did do, but then again meybe 90% of players wouldn't have quit the game. some people hate is when devs lie and steal their money.
You seem to be confusing MARKETING with LYING. They are not the same thing, though some people seem to think so
Here's an example:
1. You see an ad by Aventurine: "Buy Darkfall, FFA, fool loot, PvP game!"
2. You see an ad by Funcom: "Buy Age of Conan, with DX10 included!"
Now lets say both these games suck. Big time.
Are you angry at Aventurine? No, because they didn't LIE, game only sucked. You move on.
Are you angry at Funcom? Yes, because they LIED about DX10 being in the game! You go to AoC forums and tell everyone how much the game sucks.
You CAN do marketing without lying. Just focus no what works and what actually is in the game.
Get it?
Nicely said, and this is a big reason as to why I despise Apple.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
You seem to be confusing MARKETING with LYING. They are not the same thing, though some people seem to think so
Here's an example:
1. You see an ad by Aventurine: "Buy Darkfall, FFA, fool loot, PvP game!"
2. You see an ad by Funcom: "Buy Age of Conan, with DX10 included!"
Now lets say both these games suck. Big time.
Are you angry at Aventurine? No, because they didn't LIE, game only sucked. You move on.
Are you angry at Funcom? Yes, because they LIED about DX10 being in the game! You go to AoC forums and tell everyone how much the game sucks.
You CAN do marketing without lying. Just focus no what works and what actually is in the game.
Get it?
Here's the problem. An ad won't do much in this saturated market ruled by WoW. Word of mouth is the BEST tool they can have. Also, why should they spend precious development money on advertisements when they want to make a great game (FIRST of all) and ads don't do much in this market?
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
You seem to be confusing MARKETING with LYING. They are not the same thing, though some people seem to think so
Here's an example:
1. You see an ad by Aventurine: "Buy Darkfall, FFA, fool loot, PvP game!"
2. You see an ad by Funcom: "Buy Age of Conan, with DX10 included!"
Now lets say both these games suck. Big time.
Are you angry at Aventurine? No, because they didn't LIE, game only sucked. You move on.
Are you angry at Funcom? Yes, because they LIED about DX10 being in the game! You go to AoC forums and tell everyone how much the game sucks.
You CAN do marketing without lying. Just focus no what works and what actually is in the game.
Get it?
That is a good point, but the line between marketing and lying is often gray. So many marketers twist words and stretch the truth in order to make their product sound way better than it is. The Apple commercials are a great example.
But you are right, an ad campaign doesn't necessarily mean they are lying, but they are still hyping up their game. I'd still rather see a game successful because it was good rather than it had a good marketing campaign
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
You have a source for those words of wisdom? Because I HAVE a source and my source says marketing works in this market
.
This is perfect example of a regular guy trying to understand marketing. Look at this site. Why do you think there are ads here if they don't work? You don't think those banners get any hits?
I'm not saying word-of-mouth is not the best tool. Of course it is. But this is not a choice between marketing campaign and word-of-mouth. Word-of-mouth will be there no matter what other type of marketing Aventurine does.
To everyone who is reading this thread: Please understand that marketing is MORE than just ads.
You have a source for those words of wisdom? Because I HAVE a source and my source says marketing works in this market
.
This is perfect example of a regular guy trying to understand marketing. Look at this site. Why do you think there are ads here if they don't work? You don't think those banners get any hits?
I'm not saying word-of-mouth is not the best tool. Of course it is. But this is not a choice between marketing campaign and word-of-mouth. Word-of-mouth will be there no matter what other type of marketing Aventurine does.
To everyone who is reading this thread: Please understand that marketing is MORE than just ads.
Do you honestly think the non-free2play MMOs advertised on this site are getting more subscriptions? I can show you the numbers of AOC and WAR if you like..
Also, you still haven't commented on the fact that WoW didn't advertise pre-launch like they do now..
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
I know what you mean. I despise lying so advertising was probably not a good career choice for me
The fact is Aventurine had no money for marketing and it's a real shame. It would have been good for them to bet a big launch. I personally believe that today MMO's that have a modest launch, will never reach their true potential because new games are coming so fast.
I am very worried that Darkfall is going to suck. All this secrecy surronding it.. it's never a good thing. But I truly hope I'm wrong and the game is good. If it is good I'm going to do all the word-of-mouth I can to get all my friends to subscribe.
I know what you mean. I despise lying so advertising was probably not a good career choice for me
The fact is Aventurine had no money for marketing and it's a real shame. It would have been good for them to bet a big launch. I personally believe that today MMO's that have a modest launch, will never reach their true potential because new games are coming so fast.
I am very worried that Darkfall is going to suck. All this secrecy surronding it.. it's never a good thing. But I truly hope I'm wrong and the game is good. If it is good I'm going to do all the word-of-mouth I can to get all my friends to subscribe.
And maybe, if they have enough money and they think that it will be worth it, they can focus more on marketing campaign now. Tasos already told like a year ago that they will focus on this more when the game is closer to release. To be honest, it is hard to do a marketing of a game when the release date is not even specified
Yes, I think those banners help those games to get more subs. If they didn't, MMO companies wouldn't buy that ad space. Simple as that.
I don't know much about WoW advertising pre-launch or even what they do today. But I don't think we should compare WoW to MMO's that launch today.
WoW is not a game. It's a social phenomenon. WoW was the first "big" MMO so it doesn't have the same rules as MMO's of today do.
Also back then the MMO genre was so new, rules were different. Today there is no way an MMO can get 1 million subs without marketing. There's just so much competition.
Yes, I think those banners help those games to get more subs. If they didn't, MMO companies wouldn't buy that ad space. Simple as that.
I don't know much about WoW advertising pre-launch or even what they do today. But I don't think we should compare WoW to MMO's that launch today.
WoW is not a game. It's a social phenomenon. WoW was the first "big" MMO so it doesn't have the same rules as MMO's of today do.
Also back then the MMO genre was so new, rules were different. Today there is no way an MMO can get 1 million subs without marketing. There's just so much competition.
Once again I disagree. All of the games that have more than a million subs (or players) had very little marketing. You claim that I don't understand marketing, but I certainly understand MMOs.
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Yeah, personally now that they are finally claiming a "release date" for the game, and that its "Done" according by what Tasos said, marketing it in more places than their own country would be a good idea. Personally, I only found the game by going through the quick gamelist while bored and seeing if any game caught my interest.
I'm the only one i know who has heard of the game, I have alot of friends online and off who love playing MMOs, and they havent heard of it either.
A game that I'm looking foreward to, Earth Rise, is getting more attention than DF and its not even in beta yet as far as I know. I
I'm not saying they need major advertising, but doing more than just having your name in the list would go a long way to help the game.
Yes, I think those banners help those games to get more subs. If they didn't, MMO companies wouldn't buy that ad space. Simple as that.
I don't know much about WoW advertising pre-launch or even what they do today. But I don't think we should compare WoW to MMO's that launch today.
WoW is not a game. It's a social phenomenon. WoW was the first "big" MMO so it doesn't have the same rules as MMO's of today do.
Also back then the MMO genre was so new, rules were different. Today there is no way an MMO can get 1 million subs without marketing. There's just so much competition.
WoW 's roots are not in MMO genre ...it was really heretic to the values and the design of MMO...
Blizzard used their influence in other game genres (mainly RTS) and promised them to combine them all in one big MMO...
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)