What do you mean by dynamic? I think dynamic is a custom quests not the kill XX mobs you must be referring to.
It means changing. As in, its not the same every time you log in. There have only been a few online games that have content that might be considered dynamic. I am curious to know if AgtSmith (or anyone) can name them.
Oh I know what he means... I'm doing to him what he's trying to do to us.
I am not trying to do anything save speak honestly, DDO is a game of static content - like a SP game. If you like this then great, like it. In and of itself this is not necessarily a bad thing. But when there is not enough of that static content to keep you busy all month, or month after month, it can easily become a bad thing. But whether you are happy with this static content system or not why would you deny the obvious reality? Defend it if you like it, flame it if not - or just don't say anything if you don't care too. But come on, if we cannot single out DDO as largely unique from other MMOs in so far as it is static while others are dynamic then it is absolutely pointless to bother discussing anything because the requisite honesty for a discussion is simply not present.
The only thing dynamic about DDO is the server crashes and lag spikes. As frequent as both are (servers have now been down the better part of this entire day (save the wee early morning hours) they are about the only thing that makes any quest you do any different that the last time you did it save the actions of yourself and your group, of course.
I am not even talking quest/story driven verses sandbox. I am talking about the absolute lack of anything dynamic in DDO. Every quest has every single MOB around the exact same corner in the exact same spot every single time - over and over and over. The only exception is that in some quests a 'named' MOB may or may not be there but that is hardly dynamic (although it is better than the other 99% of the game that NEVER changes in any single solitary way).
Yes, other games have recycled content and the lame gather 10 bones now go get 15 teeth or whatever stuff but the fact that remains that this is sharply more dynamic than DDO because as you go through the world it is never the same as the last time you passed through - mobs in different spots, other players to content (even compete with) , etc. In DDO everything you do (in terms of combat) is the same as the last time you did it save you and your group - the game is 100% static just like a SP game (and even SP games are less linear and static these days but you get teh idea).
So your agrument is DDO is better than most games but your still gonna stand on a soapbox and argue for the sake of being 1% right. Quite silly but you are correct so you win.
Even though I am quite pwned I have to say I enjoy the game a lot more this time through than when I played at launch.
Edit: Monday is maintnance day btw. What server do you play on being your so eager to login?
Jesus, can we not argue over the obvious? DDO is static in the same way that a single player game is static - everything is always in the same place all the time no exception nothing changes rinse and repeat. This is the very opposite of what MMOs are supposed to be.
Argue that you love DDO, love the crafted quests and tactical combat mixed with the real time combat system and diverse chacter building - but do not try to argue that the game is not as static as it can possibly be and that this is in extreme contrast to nearly the entirity of MMOs (good or bad).
I think I know what you're saying now. I wouldn't call it static versus dynamic since every MMOG uses static content. You have a problem with the game being instanced. I think most DDO players agree and think it would be great if there were some shared fighting zones. What you're saying is that MMOG's are supposed to have shared zones. I disagree and would like to point out that the ONLY requirement for a game to be considered a MMOG is to have lots of players online at the same time. Anything else is a matter of taste.
There are equally bad aspects to having too much of the game being shared. Some of the shared dungeons in AoC were a nightmare. They basically caused me to quit the game. I would work my way back to the quest objective only to have some asshat come along and nab the boss that I had been spending 20 minutes clearing the way to. Not only did it kill the immersion of the dungeon, it pissed me off as well.
DDO is at its best in a static group. Just like any MMOG, after we complete the content, then we get bored and move on. Why worry about it?
I am not trying to do anything save speak honestly, DDO is a game of static content - like a SP game. If you like this then great, like it. In and of itself this is not necessarily a bad thing. But when there is not enough of that static content to keep you busy all month, or month after month, it can easily become a bad thing. But whether you are happy with this static content system or not why would you deny the obvious reality? Defend it if you like it, flame it if not - or just don't say anything if you don't care too. But come on, if we cannot single out DDO as largely unique from other MMOs in so far as it is static while others are dynamic then it is absolutely pointless to bother discussing anything because the requisite honesty for a discussion is simply not present.
OK so static content is bad because your might run out of it. Is that what you're saying? I don't see why that would matter unless you've run every quest in the game, which most people haven't. When I have done that then I will quit with no regrets. Its no different than having run out of quests in any other MMOG.
I'm not trying to flame you either. What I am trying to say is... so what? Every MMOG is static. They do have the exact same MOB's in the exact same spot all the time. They are just as static as DDO. The only difference is that there are more people in the zone. Watching other players complete their quests is not a source of entertainment for me. If that is something important to you then that's fine. But like you said, it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with DDO. Its just different.
First, I didn't say DDO is better or worse or on par with other games, I didn't rate DDO or other games in my comments. I simply characterized DDO as static based on a major design element of repeating unchanging content - something that, for better or worse according to the player, is quite different than most all other games of the genre.
Second, no I am not talking about instances. Lots of games have instances that are dynamic - the last I player was AoC. You might enter an instance of an area but in that instance would be a dynamic world/area version unlike that last time you where there. Static quests might be available to go to such and such area and get such and such thing but what you passed along the way and what was there when you arrived was largely different each time you where out there. But in DDO every single thing is always the same every time with so little exception to of hardly be worth noting. Around every corner in any area is the same thing every time you go there, the only thing that changes is what you bring to the instance and how you deal with what you find - but the template of the instance (MOBs, landscape, everything) is pretty much 99.9% exactly the same every single time. Now, AoC was a big flop - not comparing or evaluating DDO or AoC just citing and example of a difference in terms of static verse dynamic.
Again, like it or love it that is not the point - but let's be honest. DDO is a recording of an musical group, most MMOs are more like a live performance.
This was basically why I left the game. It could be reasonably easily overcome by randomizing dungeons, locations of traps and mobs, etc.
It's a tough call. One of the things that DDO does that really distinguishes itself from other MMO's is the meticulous architecting of the instances. The strategic bits where enemies pick the perfect ambush spots and whatnot... they are what makes DDO unique. Unfortunately, for those very reasons, players' instincts of self preservation kick in and they start "predicting the future".
It's something they may have to do, though, because there's a WHOLE lot of /agree's on this page.
First, I didn't say DDO is better or worse or on par with other games, I didn't rate DDO or other games in my comments. I simply characterized DDO as static based on a major design element of repeating unchanging content - something that, for better or worse according to the player, is quite different than most all other games of the genre.
Second, no I am not talking about instances. Lots of games have instances that are dynamic - the last I player was AoC. You might enter an instance of an area but in that instance would be a dynamic world/area version unlike that last time you where there. Static quests might be available to go to such and such area and get such and such thing but what you passed along the way and what was there when you arrived was largely different each time you where out there. But in DDO every single thing is always the same every time with so little exception to of hardly be worth noting. Around every corner in any area is the same thing every time you go there, the only thing that changes is what you bring to the instance and how you deal with what you find - but the template of the instance (MOBs, landscape, everything) is pretty much 99.9% exactly the same every single time. Now, AoC was a big flop - not comparing or evaluating DDO or AoC just citing and example of a difference in terms of static verse dynamic.
Again, like it or love it that is not the point - but let's be honest. DDO is a recording of an musical group, most MMOs are more like a live performance.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I played AoC to level 70 and was my guild's main tank up to that point. I saw every instance up to that level. Then I ran another character to level 40. Everything was completely static. It was always the exact same. It was more static than DDO. In DDO there are the occasional randomized traps and objectives. For example, in one quest a particular key may be found in one of three random chests. Every quest has at least a few random rare bosses and they drop unique loot.
Maybe you're thinking of Tortage and how they made each class have a different set of starting quests. They all happened in the same area and focused on the same story, but all played out a little different. That lasted for about one evening of play for the entire game. Had the other 99% of the game been anything like that then I may agree, but it wasn't. Every run through Tortage with the same class was identical every time. There weren't even random bosses or traps.
DDO may not have the kind of random level design that you see in CoX, HGL, or Diablo 2, but its actually more dynamic than most MMOG's. The only thing different is the number of players in a particular zone. Having a lot of players creates a sense of activity and having a lot of random players around can be very entertaining. But its not entertaining all the time, not even most of the time, but it can be entertaining and I agree that DDO is missing that.
What's funny is that in the big shared areas in most MMOG's are full of solo quests so you don't want nor need another player. Then when you finally need another player to run a dungeon, you're dropped into a secluded instance and no one is around. Oh the irony of mainstream MMOG's.
I think the DDO model could work but it requires a critical mass of subscriptions so that the developer can afford to hire the staff required to churn out new content frequently enough to keep players reasonably occupied.
DDO fell some way short of this critical mass and that leads to the problem the OP raised: Veteran players have now been through the early content so many times it is only natural to tackle those instances at a brisk pace. That can make it hard for new players to get into the game and perhaps gives them a false impression of what is generally a very good community.
No, DDO isn't any more static than WoW for example . I am WoW veteran, played it couple of years, now playing DDO. DDO being static in comparision with "open instances" is a false impression PvE-wise. And WoWish dungeons (instances) are just like DDO's, just there's much less of them in WoW.
The only things which make WoW "seem" less static may be the players running around and Mobs which have "spawning areas" and which wander a couple of feet in random or usually scripted direction.
So, where players are running around, some monsters may be already killed, and so, you get the impression of 'random experience'. Which is bullshit, to be honest . Blizzard is like Copperfield in some cases, in that, and in making graphics look better at first than they really are (shinning surfaces which seem 3d, but are totally 2d textures, for example).
Once you allow yourself to see through these illusions and lack of diversity, yes, you can feel dissapointed. And then, welcome to real world, where WoW-clones aren't any better than DDO being mostly isntanced, but just different. Or maybe even, like for me, where DDO is better - but that's a matter of preference, of taste, not static vs. "random".
The only games I can think of right now which weren't "static" in the way you're describing AgtSmith, were Diablo I (big number of variations in each "campaign") and Darkstone (good 3d Diablo clone, with great music and nice feel). Even Diablo II was a disappointment for me, because it didn't match Diablo I in radnomization, which was unique to that title from the start and made it famous.
I'd like to see open, shared areas in DDO too - just for variety and popularity which is reachable via adding such playstyles. But I think Turbine is already at-least thinking of it, or maybe even working on it right now. The secret project "Vast & Mysterious", for which test server Risia was taken from public (probably), may be some open content for DDO? Who knows. Turbine is evolving, paradoxally to your point AgtSmith, dynamic mmorpg studio, and they never feared to surprise players. Knowing that something which is worked on on Risia test realm won't be compatible with our present client also makes it even more interesting . I just wish Turbine will reveal those secrets soon. I don't expect too much, but hope for the best, as always. I wish I could say the same about Blizzards work with WoW... But hey, Turbine is unique.
Just what color is the sky in the world some of you people live in? DDO is uniquely static compared to other MMOs - this is uncontestable. Most otehr MMOs may have static quest objectives but the world itself remains dynamic, DDO has static objectives as well but a completely static world and adventures. If you are going to say this is not true then you are either ignorant or delusional, or living in some alternate universe where people say hello when they leave and goodbye when they arrive.
If I was so inlined I could write out here in detail exactly what MOBs you will face around what corner in what spot and describe to exact detail every single thing about a quest in DDO. You simply cannot do that for most, even maybe all, other MMOS - you might be able to say about some other MMO that 'around past that bridge is an area with X and Y type mobs scattered about but in DDO you can nail down to the rock or patch of grass they are standing on and it is allways the same everytime. Yes, all MMOs have regions and areas that are populated with certain predictable types of things but that is a far, far cry from every single combat encounter being the exact same down to how many MOBs of such and such type are standing exactly here EVERY time to go through the adventure as in DDO.
Look, good or bad this is reality. Part of DDOs charm is this static content that requires players to, in many cases, no exactly what is ahead to properly arrange a group strategy before engaging. Just like a SP game DDO is the same every single day save every 8 months or so when they introduce a MOD that changes things or adds things, otherwise just like a SP game the world, adventures and common areas, is allways as it was the last time you where there.
Far from it. In every MMOG I have played a MOB will spawn in the exact same place every time. It may then randomly wander around the area with a sort of leash keeping it from going too far. Is THAT what you're calling dynamic? DDO MOB's so some random wandering as well. Just as much as any MMOG.
Calling us ignorant or delusional isn't going to make all those other MMOG's any more dynamic. Random wandering in a close vicinity is not even close to dynamic. I don't know why you keep insisting that it is.
Haven't you ever tried to farm a particular popular MOB in any of those other MMOG's? After a while you learn exactly where they spawn. You can even predict exactly when they will spawn. Its static and I don't see how you can call it anything else.
Can you give an example of a particular zone or MOB that you consider to have dynamic content?
I know for a fact that if I walk north from South Shore in WoW (or west from Terren Mill) that I will come to a cave full of Yeti's. I know exactly where every one of them spawns outside and inside the cave. I know that if I went there right now that they would be in the exact same place as they were when I was there two years ago, three years ago, and that they will be there next year as well. Its no different than remembering where Muck spawns in Durk's quest. Oh wait, Muck is a random boss and isn't always there. I guess Muck is more dynamic than those Yeti's.
I know for a fact that if I walk north from South Shore in WoW (or west from Terren Mill) that I will come to a cave full of Yeti's. I know exactly where every one of them spawns outside and inside the cave. I know that if I went there right now that they would be in the exact same place as they were when I was there two years ago, three years ago, and that they will be there next year as well. Its no different than remembering where Muck spawns in Durk's quest. Oh wait, Muck is a random boss and isn't always there. I guess Muck is more dynamic than those Yeti's.
That's the fact! First time I was there, my wizard killed Muck and got his Muckbane, great weapon to deal with oozes / slimes.
From that time, I was there maybe 2-3 times with other characters, but there was no Muck these times. I'll have yet to get my Muckbane from him!
Far from it. In every MMOG I have played a MOB will spawn in the exact same place every time. It may then randomly wander around the area with a sort of leash keeping it from going too far. Is THAT what you're calling dynamic? DDO MOB's so some random wandering as well. Just as much as any MMOG.
Calling us ignorant or delusional isn't going to make all those other MMOG's any more dynamic. Random wandering in a close vicinity is not even close to dynamic. I don't know why you keep insisting that it is.
Haven't you ever tried to farm a particular popular MOB in any of those other MMOG's? After a while you learn exactly where they spawn. You can even predict exactly when they will spawn. Its static and I don't see how you can call it anything else.
Can you give an example of a particular zone or MOB that you consider to have dynamic content?
I know for a fact that if I walk north from South Shore in WoW (or west from Terren Mill) that I will come to a cave full of Yeti's. I know exactly where every one of them spawns outside and inside the cave. I know that if I went there right now that they would be in the exact same place as they were when I was there two years ago, three years ago, and that they will be there next year as well. Its no different than remembering where Muck spawns in Durk's quest. Oh wait, Muck is a random boss and isn't always there. I guess Muck is more dynamic than those Yeti's.
To me dynamic was Planetside because it was PVP only and people could change tactics on the fly. If you were overrun you could find a new spawn point or bring your own. MMOs for the most part have missed out on being truly dynamic. Sure some of them talked about in game events really changing the game world but in the end almost all those ideas failed or were changed so much as to have minimal effect on the game world. I do think in the near future we will see more of that once the technology catches up to the ideas.
Just what color is the sky in the world some of you people live in? DDO is uniquely static compared to other MMOs - this is uncontestable. Most otehr MMOs may have static quest objectives but the world itself remains dynamic, DDO has static objectives as well but a completely static world and adventures. If you are going to say this is not true then you are either ignorant or delusional, or living in some alternate universe where people say hello when they leave and goodbye when they arrive.
If I was so inlined I could write out here in detail exactly what MOBs you will face around what corner in what spot and describe to exact detail every single thing about a quest in DDO. You simply cannot do that for most, even maybe all, other MMOS - you might be able to say about some other MMO that 'around past that bridge is an area with X and Y type mobs scattered about but in DDO you can nail down to the rock or patch of grass they are standing on and it is allways the same everytime. Yes, all MMOs have regions and areas that are populated with certain predictable types of things but that is a far, far cry from every single combat encounter being the exact same down to how many MOBs of such and such type are standing exactly here EVERY time to go through the adventure as in DDO.
Look, good or bad this is reality. Part of DDOs charm is this static content that requires players to, in many cases, no exactly what is ahead to properly arrange a group strategy before engaging. Just like a SP game DDO is the same every single day save every 8 months or so when they introduce a MOD that changes things or adds things, otherwise just like a SP game the world, adventures and common areas, is allways as it was the last time you where there.
Except if you play a DDO encounter on hard or elite that changes what some MOBs do. Harder difficulty changes the level of spells for enemy casters and you can go from an easy kill to getting unexpected spells rained down on you. Sure ofter the first couple of times you will know what to expect, but so does every other MMO. Games need MOBs that have better AI and can change what they do to counter what you are doing and when the technology catches up to the ideas we will see a lot more of it. But bashing DDO for something no game has really gotten right yet shows your bias.
You people are not only dilusional but dishonest if you cannot acknowledge the vast difference between DDO's static nature and the near whole of the MMO genre.
You people are not only dilusional but dishonest if you cannot acknowledge the vast difference between DDO's static nature and the near whole of the MMO genre.
Why dont you give some examples instead of calling names. Your weak argument might be made stronger with real factual examples instead of what you have offered.
MMOs as a genre have static content. The MOB that appears here will appear here all the time and in some games is on an exact timer from the last time it appeared. This sometimes allows a group or individual more than one kill of a named spawn in a matter of minutes is said MOB is not a popular spawn camping spot. DDO does not have such stupidity built in and uses the instances in a great way to avoid that annoying facet of many MMOs. The uber guild in DDO can not through their massive numbers keep other players from completing any content.
Maybe your idea of static is different from others, or maybe you have a hatred of DDO. Not sure what your problem is but no one here is reading your half truths and insults and thinking what great points you make.
You people are not only dilusional but dishonest if you cannot acknowledge the vast difference between DDO's static nature and the near whole of the MMO genre.
I'm a honest person by nature . I wouldn't forgive myself if I was lying, dishonest and a hipocrite. It's hard that way, but for me, it's worth it.
And about comparing DDO at being more static than other MMOs, it's you who really can't tell the difference too. You didn't ever give any examples, and just repeat your humble, and for me, not very constructive opinion.
The whole topic of static versus dynamic is actually a very interesting one despite the fact that AgtSmith isn't really contributing anything meaningful to the discussion. It would be cool to see more games try to make their content more dynamic.
I wouldn't mind if DDO tried to make a randomized repeatable dungeon that is scaled to the player level. Even if it was somewhat generic and repetitious it could make leveling up alts a little more interesting. I doubt it will ever happen though.
I remember reading somewhere that the DDO quests at levels 11+ have more randomized traps. I haven't gotten that far yet, but is it true?
Agtsmith, you are generalizing a bit. Although there are quests that are completely static, there are also quests where mobs move around (much like any other mmo) and quests that contain random elements (switch locations, puzzle soultions, path to the goal changes, exc.)
The whole topic of static versus dynamic is actually a very interesting one despite the fact that AgtSmith isn't really contributing anything meaningful to the discussion. It would be cool to see more games try to make their content more dynamic. I wouldn't mind if DDO tried to make a randomized repeatable dungeon that is scaled to the player level. Even if it was somewhat generic and repetitious it could make leveling up alts a little more interesting. I doubt it will ever happen though. I remember reading somewhere that the DDO quests at levels 11+ have more randomized traps. I haven't gotten that far yet, but is it true?
Oh yes, you've reminded me. In recent Mod 8 high level dungeons is said to have radnomized puzzles / traps which people who were used to more "memory" approach cursed .
But yes, I wasn't there myself, but in fact there such things. More than that, some monsters in lower level dungeons are traveling a bit. Patrols may be seen in different areas.
And if we talks about open-air instances, there are patrols of Hobgoblin-pirates in a quest accessible from even Harbor . So yes, DDO has all that. Maybe even more than WoW.
I am not saying that in a very general sense MMOs are static in so far as the quests scripts/goals are not updating over time and areas are typically populated by vertain MOBs regularly. However, that is a general description because the reality of most MMOs is that while the MOB spawns may be scripted and the quest goals may be constant the world is an open, shared, dynamic place that is always changing based on who is where and doing what. DDO on the other hand has ZERO shared areas, so every time you load in to an adventure area it spawns exactly according to the script that spawned it the last time you entered, yes some 'rares' will or will not spawn some times but that represents, easily, less than 1% of the overall content so it is fair to say that an area pops the same today as it popped yesterday.
The difference is evident in RL - anything public can provide an entirely different experience each time you go there verse the more predictable and consistent nature of private spaces. Think of the food court verse your own kitchen. That isn't to say that it is the instancing that is the issue, lots of games instance areas. But in instancing the entire world and making ALL adventure areas private coupled with more crafted and specifically and precisely static content in general the difference between a typical MMO and DDO in this regard is tangible.
This represents a huge difference and fairly and accurately makes DDO 'static' in contrast to the dynamic world that most other MMOs present. Even DDOs original producer or lead developer (or whatever his actual title was) openly commented on that unique design difference was (paraphrasing) that DDO was about repeating the content trying to get it just right on succesive run throughs, trying to "perfect" how the encounter was handled. Well, you cannot have a stated goal of 'perfecting' how you do the content without the content being very static for succisive runs.
I am not saying that in a very general sense MMOs are static in so far as the quests scripts/goals are not updating over time and areas are typically populated by vertain MOBs regularly. However, that is a general description because the reality of most MMOs is that while the MOB spawns may be scripted and the quest goals may be constant the world is an open, shared, dynamic place that is always changing based on who is where and doing what. DDO on the other hand has ZERO shared areas, so every time you load in to an adventure area it spawns exactly according to the script that spawned it the last time you entered, yes some 'rares' will or will not spawn some times but that represents, easily, less than 1% of the overall content so it is fair to say that an area pops the same today as it popped yesterday.
The difference is evident in RL - anything public can provide an entirely different experience each time you go there verse the more predictable and consistent nature of private spaces. Think of the food court verse your own kitchen. That isn't to say that it is the instancing that is the issue, lots of games instance areas. But in instancing the entire world and making ALL adventure areas private coupled with more crafted and specifically and precisely static content in general the difference between a typical MMO and DDO in this regard is tangible.
This represents a huge difference and fairly and accurately makes DDO 'static' in contrast to the dynamic world that most other MMOs present. Even DDOs original producer or lead developer (or whatever his actual title was) openly commented on that unique design difference was (paraphrasing) that DDO was about repeating the content trying to get it just right on succesive run throughs, trying to "perfect" how the encounter was handled. Well, you cannot have a stated goal of 'perfecting' how you do the content without the content being very static for succisive runs.
I think we hear what you're saying, but its the choice of the words 'static' and 'dynamic' to describe shared and private that are driving people insane here. Its purely semantecs though so the only problem is that you're defending your incorrect choice of words.
Even the shared versus private debate is just a matter of scale. My instance in DDO isn't private. Its shared with my group. The difference here is that I got to choose who I am sharing the instance with.
Yesterday I went into an instance that we all know like the back of our hands, the Waterworks. Everything was dead already. It was different than the last time I was in there when there were a few MOB's scattered about. As it turns out my groupmate had already cleared the way to the guard in the back. Now I could argue that its exactly the same thing that could happen in a mainstream shared MMOG except in this case I had some control over the magnitude of the sharing.
EDIT: To use your own analogy, you could easily invite a bunch of stranger into your kitchen to make their lunch. It would then be exactly like the food court.
All the adventures in DDO are handcrafted modules -- some of them are short, some epic, but one of the central tenets of DDO was -- "no purely random content" -- we wanted the players to feel that the adventure was intentionally (and intelligently) designed. While the temptation to put in the random fluff is always there ...
Ken Troop, DDO Lead Developer (circa 2005)
To their credit I think, and most would agree, that DDO adventures/quest are very uniquely different than other MMO content. But therein lies the issue at hand, in being handcrafted and unique they are very static and then that gets in to the whole issue of their being enough of it, at launch or even now, to keep players legitimately busy month after month without just recycling the same content. But that becomes another issues, my point here is jsut that you have to acknowledge the clear and unique difference - the good and bad of it as well - that DDO content represents from other MMOs. Static verse Dynamic might be simplifying things ut it is entirely accurate to characterize it that way as at the core that is the difference and it is an important one as it affects the broader game.
"All the zones in WoW are handcrafted playing fields -- some of them are small, some epic, but one of the central tenets of WoW was -- "no purely random content" -- we wanted the players to feel that the adventure was intentionally (and intelligently) designed. While the temptation to put in the random fluff is always there"
Other than the simple fact that this modified version was not a quote from a Blizzard developer, there is nothing inherently incorrect about it.
Also, having other players in the zone does not make the game have any more content. I would be just as bored running Hillsbrad Foothills for the 5th time as I would the Waterworks.
Comments
It means changing. As in, its not the same every time you log in. There have only been a few online games that have content that might be considered dynamic. I am curious to know if AgtSmith (or anyone) can name them.
Oh I know what he means... I'm doing to him what he's trying to do to us.
He probably can't name any that are worth a damn.
-Almerel
Hello my old friend.
I am not trying to do anything save speak honestly, DDO is a game of static content - like a SP game. If you like this then great, like it. In and of itself this is not necessarily a bad thing. But when there is not enough of that static content to keep you busy all month, or month after month, it can easily become a bad thing. But whether you are happy with this static content system or not why would you deny the obvious reality? Defend it if you like it, flame it if not - or just don't say anything if you don't care too. But come on, if we cannot single out DDO as largely unique from other MMOs in so far as it is static while others are dynamic then it is absolutely pointless to bother discussing anything because the requisite honesty for a discussion is simply not present.
The only thing dynamic about DDO is the server crashes and lag spikes. As frequent as both are (servers have now been down the better part of this entire day (save the wee early morning hours) they are about the only thing that makes any quest you do any different that the last time you did it save the actions of yourself and your group, of course.
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So your agrument is DDO is better than most games but your still gonna stand on a soapbox and argue for the sake of being 1% right. Quite silly but you are correct so you win.
Even though I am quite pwned I have to say I enjoy the game a lot more this time through than when I played at launch.
Edit: Monday is maintnance day btw. What server do you play on being your so eager to login?
-Almerel
Hello my old friend.
I think I know what you're saying now. I wouldn't call it static versus dynamic since every MMOG uses static content. You have a problem with the game being instanced. I think most DDO players agree and think it would be great if there were some shared fighting zones. What you're saying is that MMOG's are supposed to have shared zones. I disagree and would like to point out that the ONLY requirement for a game to be considered a MMOG is to have lots of players online at the same time. Anything else is a matter of taste.
There are equally bad aspects to having too much of the game being shared. Some of the shared dungeons in AoC were a nightmare. They basically caused me to quit the game. I would work my way back to the quest objective only to have some asshat come along and nab the boss that I had been spending 20 minutes clearing the way to. Not only did it kill the immersion of the dungeon, it pissed me off as well.
DDO is at its best in a static group. Just like any MMOG, after we complete the content, then we get bored and move on. Why worry about it?
OK so static content is bad because your might run out of it. Is that what you're saying? I don't see why that would matter unless you've run every quest in the game, which most people haven't. When I have done that then I will quit with no regrets. Its no different than having run out of quests in any other MMOG.
I'm not trying to flame you either. What I am trying to say is... so what? Every MMOG is static. They do have the exact same MOB's in the exact same spot all the time. They are just as static as DDO. The only difference is that there are more people in the zone. Watching other players complete their quests is not a source of entertainment for me. If that is something important to you then that's fine. But like you said, it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with DDO. Its just different.
First, I didn't say DDO is better or worse or on par with other games, I didn't rate DDO or other games in my comments. I simply characterized DDO as static based on a major design element of repeating unchanging content - something that, for better or worse according to the player, is quite different than most all other games of the genre.
Second, no I am not talking about instances. Lots of games have instances that are dynamic - the last I player was AoC. You might enter an instance of an area but in that instance would be a dynamic world/area version unlike that last time you where there. Static quests might be available to go to such and such area and get such and such thing but what you passed along the way and what was there when you arrived was largely different each time you where out there. But in DDO every single thing is always the same every time with so little exception to of hardly be worth noting. Around every corner in any area is the same thing every time you go there, the only thing that changes is what you bring to the instance and how you deal with what you find - but the template of the instance (MOBs, landscape, everything) is pretty much 99.9% exactly the same every single time. Now, AoC was a big flop - not comparing or evaluating DDO or AoC just citing and example of a difference in terms of static verse dynamic.
Again, like it or love it that is not the point - but let's be honest. DDO is a recording of an musical group, most MMOs are more like a live performance.
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It's a tough call. One of the things that DDO does that really distinguishes itself from other MMO's is the meticulous architecting of the instances. The strategic bits where enemies pick the perfect ambush spots and whatnot... they are what makes DDO unique. Unfortunately, for those very reasons, players' instincts of self preservation kick in and they start "predicting the future".
It's something they may have to do, though, because there's a WHOLE lot of /agree's on this page.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I played AoC to level 70 and was my guild's main tank up to that point. I saw every instance up to that level. Then I ran another character to level 40. Everything was completely static. It was always the exact same. It was more static than DDO. In DDO there are the occasional randomized traps and objectives. For example, in one quest a particular key may be found in one of three random chests. Every quest has at least a few random rare bosses and they drop unique loot.
Maybe you're thinking of Tortage and how they made each class have a different set of starting quests. They all happened in the same area and focused on the same story, but all played out a little different. That lasted for about one evening of play for the entire game. Had the other 99% of the game been anything like that then I may agree, but it wasn't. Every run through Tortage with the same class was identical every time. There weren't even random bosses or traps.
DDO may not have the kind of random level design that you see in CoX, HGL, or Diablo 2, but its actually more dynamic than most MMOG's. The only thing different is the number of players in a particular zone. Having a lot of players creates a sense of activity and having a lot of random players around can be very entertaining. But its not entertaining all the time, not even most of the time, but it can be entertaining and I agree that DDO is missing that.
What's funny is that in the big shared areas in most MMOG's are full of solo quests so you don't want nor need another player. Then when you finally need another player to run a dungeon, you're dropped into a secluded instance and no one is around. Oh the irony of mainstream MMOG's.
I think the DDO model could work but it requires a critical mass of subscriptions so that the developer can afford to hire the staff required to churn out new content frequently enough to keep players reasonably occupied.
DDO fell some way short of this critical mass and that leads to the problem the OP raised: Veteran players have now been through the early content so many times it is only natural to tackle those instances at a brisk pace. That can make it hard for new players to get into the game and perhaps gives them a false impression of what is generally a very good community.
No, DDO isn't any more static than WoW for example
. I am WoW veteran, played it couple of years, now playing DDO. DDO being static in comparision with "open instances" is a false impression PvE-wise. And WoWish dungeons (instances) are just like DDO's, just there's much less of them in WoW.
. Blizzard is like Copperfield in some cases, in that, and in making graphics look better at first than they really are (shinning surfaces which seem 3d, but are totally 2d textures, for example).
The only things which make WoW "seem" less static may be the players running around and Mobs which have "spawning areas" and which wander a couple of feet in random or usually scripted direction.
So, where players are running around, some monsters may be already killed, and so, you get the impression of 'random experience'. Which is bullshit, to be honest
Once you allow yourself to see through these illusions and lack of diversity, yes, you can feel dissapointed. And then, welcome to real world, where WoW-clones aren't any better than DDO being mostly isntanced, but just different. Or maybe even, like for me, where DDO is better - but that's a matter of preference, of taste, not static vs. "random".
The only games I can think of right now which weren't "static" in the way you're describing AgtSmith, were Diablo I (big number of variations in each "campaign") and Darkstone (good 3d Diablo clone, with great music and nice feel). Even Diablo II was a disappointment for me, because it didn't match Diablo I in radnomization, which was unique to that title from the start and made it famous.
I'd like to see open, shared areas in DDO too - just for variety and popularity which is reachable via adding such playstyles. But I think Turbine is already at-least thinking of it, or maybe even working on it right now. The secret project "Vast & Mysterious", for which test server Risia was taken from public (probably), may be some open content for DDO? Who knows. Turbine is evolving, paradoxally to your point AgtSmith, dynamic mmorpg studio, and they never feared to surprise players. Knowing that something which is worked on on Risia test realm won't be compatible with our present client also makes it even more interesting
. I just wish Turbine will reveal those secrets soon. I don't expect too much, but hope for the best, as always. I wish I could say the same about Blizzards work with WoW... But hey, Turbine is unique.
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Just what color is the sky in the world some of you people live in? DDO is uniquely static compared to other MMOs - this is uncontestable. Most otehr MMOs may have static quest objectives but the world itself remains dynamic, DDO has static objectives as well but a completely static world and adventures. If you are going to say this is not true then you are either ignorant or delusional, or living in some alternate universe where people say hello when they leave and goodbye when they arrive.
If I was so inlined I could write out here in detail exactly what MOBs you will face around what corner in what spot and describe to exact detail every single thing about a quest in DDO. You simply cannot do that for most, even maybe all, other MMOS - you might be able to say about some other MMO that 'around past that bridge is an area with X and Y type mobs scattered about but in DDO you can nail down to the rock or patch of grass they are standing on and it is allways the same everytime. Yes, all MMOs have regions and areas that are populated with certain predictable types of things but that is a far, far cry from every single combat encounter being the exact same down to how many MOBs of such and such type are standing exactly here EVERY time to go through the adventure as in DDO.
Look, good or bad this is reality. Part of DDOs charm is this static content that requires players to, in many cases, no exactly what is ahead to properly arrange a group strategy before engaging. Just like a SP game DDO is the same every single day save every 8 months or so when they introduce a MOD that changes things or adds things, otherwise just like a SP game the world, adventures and common areas, is allways as it was the last time you where there.
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Far from it. In every MMOG I have played a MOB will spawn in the exact same place every time. It may then randomly wander around the area with a sort of leash keeping it from going too far. Is THAT what you're calling dynamic? DDO MOB's so some random wandering as well. Just as much as any MMOG.
Calling us ignorant or delusional isn't going to make all those other MMOG's any more dynamic. Random wandering in a close vicinity is not even close to dynamic. I don't know why you keep insisting that it is.
Haven't you ever tried to farm a particular popular MOB in any of those other MMOG's? After a while you learn exactly where they spawn. You can even predict exactly when they will spawn. Its static and I don't see how you can call it anything else.
Can you give an example of a particular zone or MOB that you consider to have dynamic content?
I know for a fact that if I walk north from South Shore in WoW (or west from Terren Mill) that I will come to a cave full of Yeti's. I know exactly where every one of them spawns outside and inside the cave. I know that if I went there right now that they would be in the exact same place as they were when I was there two years ago, three years ago, and that they will be there next year as well. Its no different than remembering where Muck spawns in Durk's quest. Oh wait, Muck is a random boss and isn't always there. I guess Muck is more dynamic than those Yeti's.
That's the fact! First time I was there, my wizard killed Muck and got his Muckbane, great weapon to deal with oozes / slimes.
From that time, I was there maybe 2-3 times with other characters, but there was no Muck these times. I'll have yet to get my Muckbane from him!
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Far from it. In every MMOG I have played a MOB will spawn in the exact same place every time. It may then randomly wander around the area with a sort of leash keeping it from going too far. Is THAT what you're calling dynamic? DDO MOB's so some random wandering as well. Just as much as any MMOG.
Calling us ignorant or delusional isn't going to make all those other MMOG's any more dynamic. Random wandering in a close vicinity is not even close to dynamic. I don't know why you keep insisting that it is.
Haven't you ever tried to farm a particular popular MOB in any of those other MMOG's? After a while you learn exactly where they spawn. You can even predict exactly when they will spawn. Its static and I don't see how you can call it anything else.
Can you give an example of a particular zone or MOB that you consider to have dynamic content?
I know for a fact that if I walk north from South Shore in WoW (or west from Terren Mill) that I will come to a cave full of Yeti's. I know exactly where every one of them spawns outside and inside the cave. I know that if I went there right now that they would be in the exact same place as they were when I was there two years ago, three years ago, and that they will be there next year as well. Its no different than remembering where Muck spawns in Durk's quest. Oh wait, Muck is a random boss and isn't always there. I guess Muck is more dynamic than those Yeti's.
To me dynamic was Planetside because it was PVP only and people could change tactics on the fly. If you were overrun you could find a new spawn point or bring your own. MMOs for the most part have missed out on being truly dynamic. Sure some of them talked about in game events really changing the game world but in the end almost all those ideas failed or were changed so much as to have minimal effect on the game world. I do think in the near future we will see more of that once the technology catches up to the ideas.
Except if you play a DDO encounter on hard or elite that changes what some MOBs do. Harder difficulty changes the level of spells for enemy casters and you can go from an easy kill to getting unexpected spells rained down on you. Sure ofter the first couple of times you will know what to expect, but so does every other MMO. Games need MOBs that have better AI and can change what they do to counter what you are doing and when the technology catches up to the ideas we will see a lot more of it. But bashing DDO for something no game has really gotten right yet shows your bias.
You people are not only dilusional but dishonest if you cannot acknowledge the vast difference between DDO's static nature and the near whole of the MMO genre.
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Why dont you give some examples instead of calling names. Your weak argument might be made stronger with real factual examples instead of what you have offered.
MMOs as a genre have static content. The MOB that appears here will appear here all the time and in some games is on an exact timer from the last time it appeared. This sometimes allows a group or individual more than one kill of a named spawn in a matter of minutes is said MOB is not a popular spawn camping spot. DDO does not have such stupidity built in and uses the instances in a great way to avoid that annoying facet of many MMOs. The uber guild in DDO can not through their massive numbers keep other players from completing any content.
Maybe your idea of static is different from others, or maybe you have a hatred of DDO. Not sure what your problem is but no one here is reading your half truths and insults and thinking what great points you make.
I'm a honest person by nature
. I wouldn't forgive myself if I was lying, dishonest and a hipocrite. It's hard that way, but for me, it's worth it.
And about comparing DDO at being more static than other MMOs, it's you who really can't tell the difference too. You didn't ever give any examples, and just repeat your humble, and for me, not very constructive opinion.
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The whole topic of static versus dynamic is actually a very interesting one despite the fact that AgtSmith isn't really contributing anything meaningful to the discussion. It would be cool to see more games try to make their content more dynamic.
I wouldn't mind if DDO tried to make a randomized repeatable dungeon that is scaled to the player level. Even if it was somewhat generic and repetitious it could make leveling up alts a little more interesting. I doubt it will ever happen though.
I remember reading somewhere that the DDO quests at levels 11+ have more randomized traps. I haven't gotten that far yet, but is it true?
Agtsmith, you are generalizing a bit. Although there are quests that are completely static, there are also quests where mobs move around (much like any other mmo) and quests that contain random elements (switch locations, puzzle soultions, path to the goal changes, exc.)
Oh yes, you've reminded me. In recent Mod 8 high level dungeons is said to have radnomized puzzles / traps which people who were used to more "memory" approach cursed
.
But yes, I wasn't there myself, but in fact there such things. More than that, some monsters in lower level dungeons are traveling a bit. Patrols may be seen in different areas.
And if we talks about open-air instances, there are patrols of Hobgoblin-pirates in a quest accessible from even Harbor
. So yes, DDO has all that. Maybe even more than WoW.
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I am not saying that in a very general sense MMOs are static in so far as the quests scripts/goals are not updating over time and areas are typically populated by vertain MOBs regularly. However, that is a general description because the reality of most MMOs is that while the MOB spawns may be scripted and the quest goals may be constant the world is an open, shared, dynamic place that is always changing based on who is where and doing what. DDO on the other hand has ZERO shared areas, so every time you load in to an adventure area it spawns exactly according to the script that spawned it the last time you entered, yes some 'rares' will or will not spawn some times but that represents, easily, less than 1% of the overall content so it is fair to say that an area pops the same today as it popped yesterday.
The difference is evident in RL - anything public can provide an entirely different experience each time you go there verse the more predictable and consistent nature of private spaces. Think of the food court verse your own kitchen. That isn't to say that it is the instancing that is the issue, lots of games instance areas. But in instancing the entire world and making ALL adventure areas private coupled with more crafted and specifically and precisely static content in general the difference between a typical MMO and DDO in this regard is tangible.
This represents a huge difference and fairly and accurately makes DDO 'static' in contrast to the dynamic world that most other MMOs present. Even DDOs original producer or lead developer (or whatever his actual title was) openly commented on that unique design difference was (paraphrasing) that DDO was about repeating the content trying to get it just right on succesive run throughs, trying to "perfect" how the encounter was handled. Well, you cannot have a stated goal of 'perfecting' how you do the content without the content being very static for succisive runs.
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I think we hear what you're saying, but its the choice of the words 'static' and 'dynamic' to describe shared and private that are driving people insane here. Its purely semantecs though so the only problem is that you're defending your incorrect choice of words.
Even the shared versus private debate is just a matter of scale. My instance in DDO isn't private. Its shared with my group. The difference here is that I got to choose who I am sharing the instance with.
Yesterday I went into an instance that we all know like the back of our hands, the Waterworks. Everything was dead already. It was different than the last time I was in there when there were a few MOB's scattered about. As it turns out my groupmate had already cleared the way to the guard in the back. Now I could argue that its exactly the same thing that could happen in a mainstream shared MMOG except in this case I had some control over the magnitude of the sharing.
EDIT: To use your own analogy, you could easily invite a bunch of stranger into your kitchen to make their lunch. It would then be exactly like the food court.
Here are words from the original lead developer that I think back up exactly what I am saying...
To their credit I think, and most would agree, that DDO adventures/quest are very uniquely different than other MMO content. But therein lies the issue at hand, in being handcrafted and unique they are very static and then that gets in to the whole issue of their being enough of it, at launch or even now, to keep players legitimately busy month after month without just recycling the same content. But that becomes another issues, my point here is jsut that you have to acknowledge the clear and unique difference - the good and bad of it as well - that DDO content represents from other MMOs. Static verse Dynamic might be simplifying things ut it is entirely accurate to characterize it that way as at the core that is the difference and it is an important one as it affects the broader game.
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"All the zones in WoW are handcrafted playing fields -- some of them are small, some epic, but one of the central tenets of WoW was -- "no purely random content" -- we wanted the players to feel that the adventure was intentionally (and intelligently) designed. While the temptation to put in the random fluff is always there"
Other than the simple fact that this modified version was not a quote from a Blizzard developer, there is nothing inherently incorrect about it.
Also, having other players in the zone does not make the game have any more content. I would be just as bored running Hillsbrad Foothills for the 5th time as I would the Waterworks.