Just waiting for Tasos to make a this new anouncement:
" New server opening. For $50 you can make new characters on this server which will have strict anti hack/cheating features which we have been developing for the last 3 years. It works better than any other system out there. Spaces will be limited so buy fast"
Just waiting for Tasos to make a this new anouncement:
" New server opening. For $50 you can make new characters on this server which will have strict anti hack/cheating features which we have been developing for the last 3 years. It works better than any other system out there. Spaces will be limited so buy fast"
Can't do massive banning because the sub pool and fan base is so small (nitch).
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
NO WAY!! AV did not fix the speed hacking that got worse day after day in closed beta? I know quite a few people who like me were part of closed beta and refused to pre-order simple because we knew AV was incapable of stoping the exploits being used in their inferior product.
I warned people here when the NDA was lifted. I was acused opf being a troll and an out and out liar (from fanbots that had not played no less!) that kind of hurt. It gives me no pleasure in saying "I told you so".
Game is doomed if they don't plug some big holes fast.
The way they dealt with this in DAoC was start logging locations of where people's chars were if they suspected someone of speedhacking. Then they could figure out if the char could actually travel that far that fast.
This is exactly what they need to do .. I hope everyone spams this solution all over forumfall until they listen.
Unfortunately Tacos and his devs are all coding on Commodore 64's so it might take them a few months to implement
The way they dealt with this in DAoC was start logging locations of where people's chars were if they suspected someone of speedhacking. Then they could figure out if the char could actually travel that far that fast.
This is exactly what they need to do .. I hope everyone spams this solution all over forumfall until they listen.
Unfortunately Tacos and his devs are all coding on Commodore 64's so it might take them a few months to implement
But will this solve the "unlimited stamina" cheat? I figure that must be much harder to detect. Of course if someone runs from point A to point B then it should be easy to log. But someone that uses unlimited sprinting in a clever way?
Originally posted by OBK1 But will this solve the "unlimited stamina" cheat? I figure that must be much harder to detect. Of course if someone runs from point A to point B then it should be easy to log. But someone that uses unlimited sprinting in a clever way?
Yeah, I see what you mean. They really shouldn't have made stamina client-side (assumining it is since it supposedly can be hacked).
Maybe they could make stamina levels server side? Couldn't be too hard to alter just one attribute, could it?
This wouldn't be a disadvantage for those with poor latency since stamina isn't involved in aiming.
Well, how most of these speed hacks, etc work is by altering information in the data packets exchanged between the client, and the server. Basically, these programs change the values in the packet, causing the server to interpret where the character is differently. Basically, unless a Dev or GM is watching the speedhacker, it's pretty much impossible for the server to recognize something is wrong.. There is soooo much information going back and forth, it would be extremely hard to go through every single bit of data in each packet to check for any anomalies that might point to speedhacking, not to mention there are so many different ways to change the data and get the same results, the devs would have to know how exactly this one programs achieves its results to be able to detect it.. hence why these programs are usually quite hard to detect. They must not of put any, or very much, encryption on the packets stored clientside for them to be able to hack the client so quickly. This is one of the reasons most online game developers tend to try to keep important packet exchanges serverside, rather then clientside. There are many articles out there that can really explain things much better in depth, and some of the creative ways developers are coming up to thwart it.
Hackers do not hack enrypted packets to speedhack, thats a LONG way around. They hacked the client itself, found the part responsible for encrypting (if they do that at all) and sending packets and modified it to send their own version of packets. Decoding encrypted stuff takes time,if you dont know how it was encrypted. Its much easier to just reverse engineer the code itself. Well, at least thats how i see i would of done it, not that I could... or would...
But yeah, if the client side was hacked, there is no way (other then visually monitoring the hacker) to tell when someone is speedhacking. If server would process client packets, then there would be server side processin, which I dont think any MMO is capable of doing atm (imagine processing millions of packets by millions of clients, would probably need a HAL9000 type computer).
Yes, there was speedhacks and flyhacks in AoC open beta. The people who make them are getting much smarter and more organised now they realise that they can make real profits from them, either from selling the tools or using them to farm quickly and selling it on before they get banned. The money they make from selling gold / gems / whatever can buy them clean accounts with which to do more botting / hacking.
I strongly believe we are getting close to an MMO being released which struggles to cope with hackers so much so that there are more players hacking than really playing. It may not be Darkfall, but it could be very very soon. It's pretty scary actually.
Originally posted by jimmyman99 Hackers do not hack enrypted packets to speedhack, thats a LONG way around. They hacked the client itself, found the part responsible for encrypting (if they do that at all) and sending packets and modified it to send their own version of packets. Decoding encrypted stuff takes time,if you dont know how it was encrypted. Its much easier to just reverse engineer the code itself. Well, at least thats how i see i would of done it, not that I could... or would... But yeah, if the client side was hacked, there is no way (other then visually monitoring the hacker) to tell when someone is speedhacking. If server would process client packets, then there would be server side processin, which I dont think any MMO is capable of doing atm (imagine processing millions of packets by millions of clients, would probably need a HAL9000 type computer).
Actually the server HAS TO process client packets, because it has to notify the positions of all players to every player. So, you can write a 3 line check for speed hack that basically goes "IF PositionNow - PositionBefore > NineThousands Then KickThisMotherFucker".
Actually the server HAS TO process client packets, because it has to notify the positions of all players to every player. So, you can write a 3 line check for speed hack that basically goes "IF PositionNow - PositionBefore > NineThousands Then KickThisMotherFucker".
I do not believe this to be wise. A packet might get lost in transaction, higher risk when using UDP (However I expect MMO make use of TCP?). However you would still have lag with could occure at the client or server and it would see this as a hack then, or if you fall down you speed will be higher and you would make more speed. This would however be solved by only using the position on the X and Y ax and not the Z ax.
However just saying that the is prolly more then just an simple If statement. However this could be used to flag a charater so the mods could investigate. This however seems to be a problem with many mods team. Some tend to ban/kick without investigating and just go on the complaint of the other player and system.
Maybe an IF statement might work if you use the time with your recieve the packets. Your could pinpoint how coordinates a person can walk per second. So this could work and would include lag (as you calculate it based from the time your recieved the packets). This however would put more strain on the server as you have it has to preform a couple more actions and the client would have to include a timestamp on every packets, with I quess might be manipulated aswell then.
Originally posted by jimmyman99 Hackers do not hack enrypted packets to speedhack, thats a LONG way around. They hacked the client itself, found the part responsible for encrypting (if they do that at all) and sending packets and modified it to send their own version of packets. Decoding encrypted stuff takes time,if you dont know how it was encrypted. Its much easier to just reverse engineer the code itself. Well, at least thats how i see i would of done it, not that I could... or would... But yeah, if the client side was hacked, there is no way (other then visually monitoring the hacker) to tell when someone is speedhacking. If server would process client packets, then there would be server side processin, which I dont think any MMO is capable of doing atm (imagine processing millions of packets by millions of clients, would probably need a HAL9000 type computer).
Actually the server HAS TO process client packets, because it has to notify the positions of all players to every player. So, you can write a 3 line check for speed hack that basically goes "IF PositionNow - PositionBefore > NineThousands Then KickThisMotherFucker".
Actually i think the speedhack is saying that you can sprint without losing stamina forever.Not run faster.So the check you just mentioned would kick everything trying to sprint. :P
Actually the server HAS TO process client packets, because it has to notify the positions of all players to every player. So, you can write a 3 line check for speed hack that basically goes "IF PositionNow - PositionBefore > NineThousands Then KickThisMotherFucker".
I do not believe this to be wise. A packet might get lost in transaction, higher risk when using UDP (However I expect MMO make use of TCP?). However you would still have lag with could occure at the client or server and it would see this as a hack then, or if you fall down you speed will be higher and you would make more speed. This would however be solved by only using the position on the X and Y ax and not the Z ax.
However just saying that the is prolly more then just an simple If statement. However this could be used to flag a charater so the mods could investigate. This however seems to be a problem with many mods team. Some tend to ban/kick without investigating and just go on the complaint of the other player and system.
Maybe an IF statement might work if you use the time with your recieve the packets. Your could pinpoint how coordinates a person can walk per second. So this could work and would include lag (as you calculate it based from the time your recieved the packets). This however would put more strain on the server as you have it has to preform a couple more actions and the client would have to include a timestamp on every packets, with I quess might be manipulated aswell then.
Man, I was clearly oversimplifying it. I guess this game uses UDP packets, the only MMORPG that uses TCP packets is WoW AFAIK.
However, you could easily compare the position on a time basis. The servers usually have an internal clock to synchronize various things, so you could easily compare the X, Y difference against the elapsed time and give it some tolerance to avoid fake detections.
Or you could have clients send "speed" packets instead of "position" packets, which would make speed hacking totally impossible.
Whatever, there are really a fuckton of ways to detect speedhacks, not having some basic anti-speedhack/tp code is just lazy programming.
My main concern is that the code seems to be very client-trusting and very lazy on control, if they managed to create a speedhack on day 2, I fear that we will have tons of cheats in 1 month and then the game will be a mess until the devs put some real effort in fixing all the shit.
As of right now, there's a speed hack, teleport hack and a physics manipulator and it's only going to get worse ~Ripper
On the whole , the speedhack, teleport style ones arent going to hurt too much.
Why? Because using them in a fight will guarantee someone getting reported and their account flagged for a closer watch.
Its when the aimbots hit that the game ceases to exist as a competetive PvP environment, because at that point, you have to hack to compete , and they arent so easy to spot.
Typical fanboi optimism!
A: They don't have enough staff to keep the game stable, how in the fuck are they going to follow up on every hack report?
B: If you can still hack in games with the staff and support SOE (and to a lesser degree) Funcom has, how in the Hel is AV going to do it?
Answer: They can't, and they aren't...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Man, I was clearly oversimplifying it. I guess this game uses UDP packets, the only MMORPG that uses TCP packets is WoW AFAIK.
Actually quite a few MMORPG's use TCP as connected protocol incorporates already lots of stuff needed. Reinventing the wheel and using homerolled packet validity checkers isn't usually worth the hassle. Only exception using UDP that I am aware of is Asherons Call which uses very wacky twoway implemetation. Some games might theoretically have both UDP and TCP connection to the server for transferring different data but haven't seen this so far.
The games usually using UDP are the shooters and such.
Sigh these are not hacks they are MODS! No diffrent than what people download and use for WoW! They just make the game more enjoyable for some people, I swear all you people just make up this stuff to bash DarkFail.
Those are indeed hacks that give an unfair speed advantage to a player. It's unfortunate that the Darkfall client is heavily packed client-side, it really is.
With little or no GM presence it is almost impossible to detect. I don't see how Aventurine can fix this, I really don't.
Your just a DarkFail hater, these are not hacks, if there were hacks there would be videos on the net yet there are none! You just don't want to admit that DF alows features in it's game that your carebear game never thought of!!!!
DarkFail is here to stay, Just deal with it and go back to WoW!
fine here is the damn vid....dont care if i get banned
What Link? You have no proof! Darkfail 4life
Why do haters come in here and try to bash this game? Its going to have an awesome vibrant modding community to make Obliv/Fallout3 look like shit!
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Originally posted by jimmyman99 Hackers do not hack enrypted packets to speedhack, thats a LONG way around. They hacked the client itself, found the part responsible for encrypting (if they do that at all) and sending packets and modified it to send their own version of packets. Decoding encrypted stuff takes time,if you dont know how it was encrypted. Its much easier to just reverse engineer the code itself. Well, at least thats how i see i would of done it, not that I could... or would... But yeah, if the client side was hacked, there is no way (other then visually monitoring the hacker) to tell when someone is speedhacking. If server would process client packets, then there would be server side processin, which I dont think any MMO is capable of doing atm (imagine processing millions of packets by millions of clients, would probably need a HAL9000 type computer).
Actually the server HAS TO process client packets, because it has to notify the positions of all players to every player. So, you can write a 3 line check for speed hack that basically goes "IF PositionNow - PositionBefore > NineThousands Then KickThisMotherFucker".
Actually i think the speedhack is saying that you can sprint without losing stamina forever.Not run faster.So the check you just mentioned would kick everything trying to sprint. :P
Actually it has an option to be fast or normal, and both without stam loss...
This person has no clue about programming.
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Sigh these are not hacks they are MODS! No diffrent than what people download and use for WoW! They just make the game more enjoyable for some people, I swear all you people just make up this stuff to bash DarkFail.
Those are indeed hacks that give an unfair speed advantage to a player. It's unfortunate that the Darkfall client is heavily packed client-side, it really is.
With little or no GM presence it is almost impossible to detect. I don't see how Aventurine can fix this, I really don't.
Your just a DarkFail hater, these are not hacks, if there were hacks there would be videos on the net yet there are none! You just don't want to admit that DF alows features in it's game that your carebear game never thought of!!!!
DarkFail is here to stay, Just deal with it and go back to WoW!
fine here is the damn vid....dont care if i get banned
What Link? You have no proof! Darkfail 4life
Why do haters come in here and try to bash this game? Its going to have an awesome vibrant modding community to make Obliv/Fallout3 look like shit!
I could guarantee that DF would flourish if they allowed player modding. That might end up being what they will have to do just to keep afloat.
I can tell you now, if Adventurine opened DFO to player added content they would get my money.
It's a Jeep thing. . . _______ |___| \_______/ = |||||| = |X| \*........*/ |X| |X|_________|X| You wouldn't understand
Speed hack is usually the first to surface in any new game, but Adventurine's professional testers Advanced AI BOTS apparently weren't talented enough to find exploits like that.
Originally posted by Sturmrabe Actually it has an option to be fast or normal, and both without stam loss... This person has no clue about programming.
Speedhack = Faster than allowed by rules, in my book.
What you're talking about is a stamina hack.
Stamina hack may be an hell harder to fix, depending on their system. There's chance that the server actually has no information over the stamina of the players and it is managed completely client-side, which would make fixing a stamina hack almost impossible.
They had a thread on the official forums with a link to a speedhack video, the thread was taken down but the video did pretty much speak for itself I even think it was an advert for a company that had made the hack. Oh well, they need to stop this sort of thing really really fast. Now there is proof for its existence the real test is how fast they react against this cheating! Even for the most hardcore fans I imagine this could be a gamebreaker if not taken care of.
is it like the speedhack in the comic 'the noob'... i mean they're friends with av and all..
you put one hand on your bottom and you go real fast... you put both hands on your rump and you go so fast that you almost break the server.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Comments
Just waiting for Tasos to make a this new anouncement:
" New server opening. For $50 you can make new characters on this server which will have strict anti hack/cheating features which we have been developing for the last 3 years. It works better than any other system out there. Spaces will be limited so buy fast"
any day soon.
Can't do massive banning because the sub pool and fan base is so small (nitch).
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I warned people here when the NDA was lifted. I was acused opf being a troll and an out and out liar (from fanbots that had not played no less!) that kind of hurt. It gives me no pleasure in saying "I told you so".
Game is doomed if they don't plug some big holes fast.
No coordinate hacking check = amateur programming at its best.
This is exactly what they need to do .. I hope everyone spams this solution all over forumfall until they listen.
Unfortunately Tacos and his devs are all coding on Commodore 64's so it might take them a few months to implement
This is exactly what they need to do .. I hope everyone spams this solution all over forumfall until they listen.
Unfortunately Tacos and his devs are all coding on Commodore 64's so it might take them a few months to implement
But will this solve the "unlimited stamina" cheat? I figure that must be much harder to detect. Of course if someone runs from point A to point B then it should be easy to log. But someone that uses unlimited sprinting in a clever way?
Yeah, I see what you mean. They really shouldn't have made stamina client-side (assumining it is since it supposedly can be hacked).
Maybe they could make stamina levels server side? Couldn't be too hard to alter just one attribute, could it?
This wouldn't be a disadvantage for those with poor latency since stamina isn't involved in aiming.
Hackers do not hack enrypted packets to speedhack, thats a LONG way around. They hacked the client itself, found the part responsible for encrypting (if they do that at all) and sending packets and modified it to send their own version of packets. Decoding encrypted stuff takes time,if you dont know how it was encrypted. Its much easier to just reverse engineer the code itself. Well, at least thats how i see i would of done it, not that I could... or would...
But yeah, if the client side was hacked, there is no way (other then visually monitoring the hacker) to tell when someone is speedhacking. If server would process client packets, then there would be server side processin, which I dont think any MMO is capable of doing atm (imagine processing millions of packets by millions of clients, would probably need a HAL9000 type computer).
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Unfortunately it seems every mmorpg falls victim to this. The only thing you can do is report the player.
Yes, there was speedhacks and flyhacks in AoC open beta. The people who make them are getting much smarter and more organised now they realise that they can make real profits from them, either from selling the tools or using them to farm quickly and selling it on before they get banned. The money they make from selling gold / gems / whatever can buy them clean accounts with which to do more botting / hacking.
I strongly believe we are getting close to an MMO being released which struggles to cope with hackers so much so that there are more players hacking than really playing. It may not be Darkfall, but it could be very very soon. It's pretty scary actually.
Actually the server HAS TO process client packets, because it has to notify the positions of all players to every player. So, you can write a 3 line check for speed hack that basically goes "IF PositionNow - PositionBefore > NineThousands Then KickThisMotherFucker".
I do not believe this to be wise. A packet might get lost in transaction, higher risk when using UDP (However I expect MMO make use of TCP?). However you would still have lag with could occure at the client or server and it would see this as a hack then, or if you fall down you speed will be higher and you would make more speed. This would however be solved by only using the position on the X and Y ax and not the Z ax.
However just saying that the is prolly more then just an simple If statement. However this could be used to flag a charater so the mods could investigate. This however seems to be a problem with many mods team. Some tend to ban/kick without investigating and just go on the complaint of the other player and system.
Maybe an IF statement might work if you use the time with your recieve the packets. Your could pinpoint how coordinates a person can walk per second. So this could work and would include lag (as you calculate it based from the time your recieved the packets). This however would put more strain on the server as you have it has to preform a couple more actions and the client would have to include a timestamp on every packets, with I quess might be manipulated aswell then.
Actually the server HAS TO process client packets, because it has to notify the positions of all players to every player. So, you can write a 3 line check for speed hack that basically goes "IF PositionNow - PositionBefore > NineThousands Then KickThisMotherFucker".
Actually i think the speedhack is saying that you can sprint without losing stamina forever.Not run faster.So the check you just mentioned would kick everything trying to sprint. :P
I do not believe this to be wise. A packet might get lost in transaction, higher risk when using UDP (However I expect MMO make use of TCP?). However you would still have lag with could occure at the client or server and it would see this as a hack then, or if you fall down you speed will be higher and you would make more speed. This would however be solved by only using the position on the X and Y ax and not the Z ax.
However just saying that the is prolly more then just an simple If statement. However this could be used to flag a charater so the mods could investigate. This however seems to be a problem with many mods team. Some tend to ban/kick without investigating and just go on the complaint of the other player and system.
Maybe an IF statement might work if you use the time with your recieve the packets. Your could pinpoint how coordinates a person can walk per second. So this could work and would include lag (as you calculate it based from the time your recieved the packets). This however would put more strain on the server as you have it has to preform a couple more actions and the client would have to include a timestamp on every packets, with I quess might be manipulated aswell then.
Man, I was clearly oversimplifying it. I guess this game uses UDP packets, the only MMORPG that uses TCP packets is WoW AFAIK.
However, you could easily compare the position on a time basis. The servers usually have an internal clock to synchronize various things, so you could easily compare the X, Y difference against the elapsed time and give it some tolerance to avoid fake detections.
Or you could have clients send "speed" packets instead of "position" packets, which would make speed hacking totally impossible.
Whatever, there are really a fuckton of ways to detect speedhacks, not having some basic anti-speedhack/tp code is just lazy programming.
My main concern is that the code seems to be very client-trusting and very lazy on control, if they managed to create a speedhack on day 2, I fear that we will have tons of cheats in 1 month and then the game will be a mess until the devs put some real effort in fixing all the shit.
On the whole , the speedhack, teleport style ones arent going to hurt too much.
Why? Because using them in a fight will guarantee someone getting reported and their account flagged for a closer watch.
Its when the aimbots hit that the game ceases to exist as a competetive PvP environment, because at that point, you have to hack to compete , and they arent so easy to spot.
Typical fanboi optimism!
A: They don't have enough staff to keep the game stable, how in the fuck are they going to follow up on every hack report?
B: If you can still hack in games with the staff and support SOE (and to a lesser degree) Funcom has, how in the Hel is AV going to do it?
Answer: They can't, and they aren't...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Actually quite a few MMORPG's use TCP as connected protocol incorporates already lots of stuff needed. Reinventing the wheel and using homerolled packet validity checkers isn't usually worth the hassle. Only exception using UDP that I am aware of is Asherons Call which uses very wacky twoway implemetation. Some games might theoretically have both UDP and TCP connection to the server for transferring different data but haven't seen this so far.
The games usually using UDP are the shooters and such.
Playing: AC2
Played: UO, DaoC, Horizons, Ryzom, WAR, LotRO, Eve, VG...
Those are indeed hacks that give an unfair speed advantage to a player. It's unfortunate that the Darkfall client is heavily packed client-side, it really is.
With little or no GM presence it is almost impossible to detect. I don't see how Aventurine can fix this, I really don't.
Your just a DarkFail hater, these are not hacks, if there were hacks there would be videos on the net yet there are none! You just don't want to admit that DF alows features in it's game that your carebear game never thought of!!!!
DarkFail is here to stay, Just deal with it and go back to WoW!
fine here is the damn vid....dont care if i get banned
What Link? You have no proof! Darkfail 4life
Why do haters come in here and try to bash this game? Its going to have an awesome vibrant modding community to make Obliv/Fallout3 look like shit!
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Actually the server HAS TO process client packets, because it has to notify the positions of all players to every player. So, you can write a 3 line check for speed hack that basically goes "IF PositionNow - PositionBefore > NineThousands Then KickThisMotherFucker".
Actually i think the speedhack is saying that you can sprint without losing stamina forever.Not run faster.So the check you just mentioned would kick everything trying to sprint. :P
Actually it has an option to be fast or normal, and both without stam loss...
This person has no clue about programming.
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Those are indeed hacks that give an unfair speed advantage to a player. It's unfortunate that the Darkfall client is heavily packed client-side, it really is.
With little or no GM presence it is almost impossible to detect. I don't see how Aventurine can fix this, I really don't.
Your just a DarkFail hater, these are not hacks, if there were hacks there would be videos on the net yet there are none! You just don't want to admit that DF alows features in it's game that your carebear game never thought of!!!!
DarkFail is here to stay, Just deal with it and go back to WoW!
fine here is the damn vid....dont care if i get banned
What Link? You have no proof! Darkfail 4life
Why do haters come in here and try to bash this game? Its going to have an awesome vibrant modding community to make Obliv/Fallout3 look like shit!
I could guarantee that DF would flourish if they allowed player modding. That might end up being what they will have to do just to keep afloat.
I can tell you now, if Adventurine opened DFO to player added content they would get my money.
_______
|___
\_______/
=
|X| \*........*/ |X|
|X|_________|X|
You wouldn't understand
why so serious?
I was just playing along w/ the sarcasm!
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Fixed!!
Currently playing Real Life..
http://i36.tinypic.com/2uyod3k.gif
For all your stalking needs..
http://www.plurk.com/Random_
Oh don't worry, I never post anything seriously on these forums. I always have some hidden agenda.
_______
|___
\_______/
=
|X| \*........*/ |X|
|X|_________|X|
You wouldn't understand
Speedhack = Faster than allowed by rules, in my book.
What you're talking about is a stamina hack.
Stamina hack may be an hell harder to fix, depending on their system. There's chance that the server actually has no information over the stamina of the players and it is managed completely client-side, which would make fixing a stamina hack almost impossible.
is it like the speedhack in the comic 'the noob'... i mean they're friends with av and all..
you put one hand on your bottom and you go real fast... you put both hands on your rump and you go so fast that you almost break the server.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?