What is it with devs nowadays? MMO is for grouping and having fun together and i haven't seen a game apart from LOTRO that actually rewards grouping... Few months back i got around to play WoW trial to finally see what's the big fuss about it. I was pleased by the smoothness of graphics, cartoony looks, great UI, quests, etc. but the thing that surprised me the most was that although others players were running around not one would group with me... Then my mate told me that WoW doesn't really reward grouping as it's splits rewardsand xp between the members of the group. Then i tried EQ2 and guess what? Pretty much the same situation... Vanguard wasn't better either. Not to mention Tabula Rasa where you were able to solo entire game (even instances).
All i hear on forums is solo this, solo that. Frack that. Even in WAR PvE questing is a solo affair, although fair enough for everything else grouping is essential and with the best LFG system to date. Now i hear the upcoming SWTOR MMO will be mostly soloable with few bits and bobs where you get to group and then back to solo grind again... I mean look at EVE or Darkfall... Without grouping you're pretty much dead in the water (or space) in those games. What are your thoughts? Is soloing killing MMO's and what they're about?
There is more than one way to be social in these games or enjoy other people around you. Grouping is just one of these ways.
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If you need the game to force you to group, then you're actually not that much of a group oriented or social player. Personally, I'll take less rewards in order to play with my friends, since I can play single player games anytime I want alone. If the opportunity to play with them is there, I'll take it anytime. I stress FRIENDS, not random PUG strangers
Yes, I'm happy to group with a RL friend or two, and I do so quite frequently, but I never PUG with strangers because way too many of them are immature, inarticulate and/or dumb as rocks. Even knowing this, I'll throw someone a bone and grudgingly help them finish a quest or kill a mob, and then they stick you on their "friends" list and bug you for weeks. Sad, but true.
I thought a little about forced grouping, and the biggest argument against it i have heard is that "I dont always have the time to find a group", but if all content requires a group, wouldnt everyone be looking for one? How hard can it be to find a group then?
I really wish there would be more grouping rewards or even grouping requirements in MMOs, it is multiplayer games afterall, if you want single player RPGs there are plenty of them out there
I thought a little about forced grouping, and the biggest argument against it i have heard is that "I dont always have the time to find a group", but if all content requires a group, wouldnt everyone be looking for one? How hard can it be to find a group then? I really wish there would be more grouping rewards or even grouping requirements in MMOs, it is multiplayer games afterall, if you want single player RPGs there are plenty of them out there
Re-read your first paragraph and pay close attention to the words "wouldnt everyone be looking for one?" 'cos it sums up exactly what the problem is in games that require forced grouping; yes .. quite literally everyone woulld, and there will always come a time when the group is full, or lacking a critical class, and players would be left on the side-lines.
If you had a free hour and fancied playing the game, would you find it fun to spend that hour LFG?
Yes, there are plenty of single-player RPGs out there, however there are alsoplenty of non-MMO multiplayer games out there too and the solo playstyle is every bit as valid as the grouping one .. and why is it that when this topic comes up it's invariably posted by someone who's pro-grouping and evidentally thinks that solo players are merely being selfish in that they don't share his/her taste in playstyle and hence should be forced into it by the mechanics of the game.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I thought a little about forced grouping, and the biggest argument against it i have heard is that "I dont always have the time to find a group", but if all content requires a group, wouldnt everyone be looking for one? How hard can it be to find a group then? I really wish there would be more grouping rewards or even grouping requirements in MMOs, it is multiplayer games afterall, if you want single player RPGs there are plenty of them out there
While in a forced grouping game everyone might be looking for a group, it does not mean that they would be looking to group for the same things as you. The more varied the content of a game is, the wider will the population will be distributed accross the content. People looking for dungeon groups might not all be looking for the same dungeon. People looking to do quests will not all want to play in the same zone. People who completed a quest chain will prefer not to do it again and want to move on to higher level content.
The more generic the content is the more likely you are to find a group for it. Older MMOs that were mostly grinding mobs for XP could force grouping easily since the players were gonna do the same thing anyway.
Also, let's drop the silly 'just play single player games' argument. People play play MMOs so they can interact with other people online. This does not necessary have to be in the form of grouping for everything.
I solo on Runescape most of the time because finding a group is a huge pain in the ass for any game, really. In War, I solo unless I'm doing public quests or public RvR (just because it's not possible otherwise) I don't think MMO's were meant for grouping all the time, I was under the impression that an MMO meant a persistent world where players interact.
This.
MMO's are games where grouping and community interaction should be greatly encouraged, but not necessarily forced. For example, most rewards available through grouping should also be available through solo play, but at greatly increased difficulty / time.
I don't want to solo ALL the time, but I am not able to group ALL the time either. Both playstyles can be accomadated, each with its own tradeoff in terms of difficulty and time. Truely epic content is a different matter, that kind of material should be locked behind many barriers, possibly including group / raid content and enforced solo trials.
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Point is, not everyone wants to group. We are all busy in mmos and are probaly doing quests. If someone turns you down and states "I will do better on my own" than yes, you are looking at grouping being a negative element in mmorpgs(which originally was supposed to be a positive element.) Try joining a game were grouping will mean life or death, maybe than you will get some parties.
"i have a lvl 26 maplestory warrior lvl 9 asda story archer and a adventure quest mage lvl 15 and my xfire is my bro's"
What is it with devs nowadays? MMO is for grouping and having fun together and i haven't seen a game apart from LOTRO that actually rewards grouping... Few months back i got around to play WoW trial to finally see what's the big fuss about it. I was pleased by the smoothness of graphics, cartoony looks, great UI, quests, etc. but the thing that surprised me the most was that although others players were running around not one would group with me... Then my mate told me that WoW doesn't really reward grouping as it's splits rewardsand xp between the members of the group. Then i tried EQ2 and guess what? Pretty much the same situation... Vanguard wasn't better either. Not to mention Tabula Rasa where you were able to solo entire game (even instances).
All i hear on forums is solo this, solo that. Frack that. Even in WAR PvE questing is a solo affair, although fair enough for everything else grouping is essential and with the best LFG system to date. Now i hear the upcoming SWTOR MMO will be mostly soloable with few bits and bobs where you get to group and then back to solo grind again... I mean look at EVE or Darkfall... Without grouping you're pretty much dead in the water (or space) in those games. What are your thoughts? Is soloing killing MMO's and what they're about?
LOL...wow....
no...grouping and PvP are killing MMOs as we knew them.....
Only as far as the game industry catering to the morons who think grouping and PvP is where it's at....
The first MMos had it all....except PvP....which was the best of times.....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I thought a little about forced grouping, and the biggest argument against it i have heard is that "I dont always have the time to find a group", but if all content requires a group, wouldnt everyone be looking for one? How hard can it be to find a group then? I really wish there would be more grouping rewards or even grouping requirements in MMOs, it is multiplayer games afterall, if you want single player RPGs there are plenty of them out there
Not single player games with constantly changing content, an active auction house amply supplied by players who are crafting and gathering, events such as Christmas mirrored in-game, and a chat function.
My biggest reason to object toforced grouping is that far too many players are rude, inarticulate, immature and about as much use as a ball and chain on the leg of a long-distance swimmer.
I wonder why you never see people who prefer to solo saying "I wish there was less group-oriented stuff" - ahh, that's because we can solo most group-oriented stuff because it's generally so easy!
Oh, and for the final time to all the slow-witted - "multiplayer" just means the game is played by a lot of players. The word "grouping" doesn't actually appear in the description.
Really all that is needed here is equal treatment for groups and solo types. Admittedly, I solo a lot, but then, it is because group mechanics are clunky in a lot of games, and lets face it, if you and a group of real life friends dont play together, you are forced to play with asshats, and that ruins any game experience. But the other point here is that game companies ultimately decide who to cater to, though it is profitable to cater to both.
I actually find that entertaining. I'm playng an online MMORPG because of the unexpected experiences I will have grouping with other players. Not to get loot, not to be l33t, not for the quests and stale story lines that dont' change the game world, not for going "ding" when I get a level, or a new skill level.
So a bunch of asshats getting the group wiped is perfectly fine, because I'm entertained, and that's all I"m looking for from the game.
Ha! You just proved my point--your definition of success is not mainstream. I do believe this is the first time I've ever heard of someone being fine with an asshat-initiated teamwipe. An "earned" defeat is fine to me, but asshattery and stupidity are not. I may not care about grinding to level up and get loot, but I do want to level. I want to progress and see what comes next, both personally and story-wise, and I can't do that if I'm constantly in XP debt. I team when I can, but I solo when I either can't find a good team or just don't feel like putting up with other people.
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Really all that is needed here is equal treatment for groups and solo types. Admittedly, I solo a lot, but then, it is because group mechanics are clunky in a lot of games, and lets face it, if you and a group of real life friends dont play together, you are forced to play with asshats, and that ruins any game experience. But the other point here is that game companies ultimately decide who to cater to, though it is profitable to cater to both.
I actually find that entertaining. I'm playng an online MMORPG because of the unexpected experiences I will have grouping with other players. Not to get loot, not to be l33t, not for the quests and stale story lines that dont' change the game world, not for going "ding" when I get a level, or a new skill level.
So a bunch of asshats getting the group wiped is perfectly fine, because I'm entertained, and that's all I"m looking for from the game.
Ha! You just proved my point--your definition of success is not mainstream. I do believe this is the first time I've ever heard of someone being fine with an asshat-initiated teamwipe. An "earned" defeat is fine to me, but asshattery and stupidity are not. I may not care about grinding to level up and get loot, but I do want to level. I want to progress and see what comes next, both personally and story-wise, and I can't do that if I'm constantly in XP debt. I team when I can, but I solo when I either can't find a good team or just don't feel like putting up with other people.
Well I agree completely. Solo friendly games are mainstream, as evidenced by WoW. Before you get to end game raiding the game is geared for solo play. I tried, went bleh, this is a solo game, and promptly quit. I liked EQ, EQ2, DAoC, they were good grouping games. City of Heroes was fun, but not a good grouping game. Yes, you COULD get a group in City of Heroes, but that doesnt' make it a good grouping game, IMO, since the dungeons scaled, most of the time grouping was pointless, although fun.
So sure, I readily agree I dont' like WoW, and that is not mainstream.
Here's the deal. Some people like to solo. Some don't. Your job is to find the ones who like to group up and play with them. Stop asking for devs to make grouping mandatory. The fact of the matter is, if grouping were fun and rewarding, more people would do it. IMO, grouping is almost always a chore. It takes time to get a group together, and then there's always that guy who goes AFK every few minutes, and then there's the person who decides to drop from the group mid way through a quest. Blah! I find playing solo while chatting with people in open chat to be much more fun. Oh, and forced grouping games are the most anti-sandbox games out there. The last thing I want or need is a dev deciding how I should play and what fun is. Screw that.
Why not play single player games online and have a chatroom up in the corner while you do it? To me that would make more sense for you and you would get out a lot cheaper. I don't think grouping should be mandatory but I think it should be encouraged. I understand folks should be able to solo but like you said nothing should be forced like solo to level.
Grouping should be beneficial as well as solo when leveling. I think there should be no grouping penalties first of all, this is a MMO for goodness sakes! WoW did some things right though, I absolutely loved their instance dungeons all the way up 1- 60. A friend and I leveled only by means of dungeons one time 1-60 and this was before any xp changes were made to the game. It was the most fun I have ever had in WoW. He was playing a priest and I was playing a warrior. We never had to wait for a group the entire time for more than one minute.
We also had all the little dungeon sets all the way up. It was a lot of fun and I feel people that didn't run those dungeons at least once each, missed out greatly in some fun. We ran each one aprox. 3-5 times each, that includes alliance and horde side dungeons that we could access. Even though I was horde, I didn't want to miss deadmines! Well I got off track, what needs to happen is no xp penalties for grouping. These are group games after all. Yes solo is fine, but encouragement to group is great too.
Well grouping is good sometimes, but like someone said its sometimes a chor and annoying...
and serious why would I group to kill mindless AI? for me grouping is necessery in EVE only as you do need people around you in 0.0, be it holding a gate while you get supplies or just raping or being raped by other players, you need comradery to keep you interested and safe.
This end game BS in wow I just do not understand, and 90% of other games for that matter, why would I kill x billion mindless, dumb as fu*k mob just so I can group at lvl 80 and raid....... get this.... more fu*king dumb as fuck mob, are you people mental? do you have a brain? can you sit there and seriously say you enjoy this BS? and your PROUD of killing x billion mindless, stupid, worthless, dumb as fu*k mob???
I seriousley do not see the point to this, could someone enlighten me please?, Thank you
I rarely group as I don't play well with other kids (in game and irl). I play MMOs for the non-combat aspects, crafting, AH, etc... you don't get those in single player games...
This topic crops up every couple of months or so and it's amazing that some people just haven't managed to grasp the simplicity of the answer to the OP's question. We solo.. because it's fun. That's it. There's no complexity to the answer at all; it's just fun. We, the majority, enjoy it more than forced grouping. It's why DDO nearly failed at launch, and it's why games like WoW who understand their target consumer continue to flourish.
Actually there is some evidence that solo or group oriented play may not be the reason games succeed. Ultima Online use to be the largest game and it was very solo friendly. Then came along EQ which was much more group oriented and it out did Ultima Online. Next we have WoW which was solo friendly and it had success.
I am not saying it doesn't play a part or that it doesn't. The evidence just isn't conclusive to declare this a fact. I personally think solo and group have a place in MMORPGs. I do think that the current crop of MMOs are a bit unfriendly towards grouping and more group incentive would be nice during leveling. Also for the solo player maybe some nice long quest chains need to be added at the end to acquire gear that is unique for a advancement path for those fellas that don't like grouping.
I think the quest should be long and tough so the solo folks can be proud to wear their long hard earned gear. IT should be unique looking and have nice stats. I think raids should be there as well with nice unique attractive gear with nice stats. No one can deny though the group game needs attention right now in MMOs. It is becoming more penalized over the years.
Here's the deal. Some people like to solo. Some don't. Your job is to find the ones who like to group up and play with them. Stop asking for devs to make grouping mandatory. The fact of the matter is, if grouping were fun and rewarding, more people would do it. IMO, grouping is almost always a chore. It takes time to get a group together, and then there's always that guy who goes AFK every few minutes, and then there's the person who decides to drop from the group mid way through a quest. Blah! I find playing solo while chatting with people in open chat to be much more fun. Oh, and forced grouping games are the most anti-sandbox games out there. The last thing I want or need is a dev deciding how I should play and what fun is. Screw that.
How could grouping possibly be fun and rewarding, if you can solo? That makes no sense. It's like you're saying, hey, we lowered the basketball hoop to 3 feet, because not everyone likes to make a hard shot. But if you want it to be harder, just close your eyes. See, everyone can play how they want!
Uh, no, that's retarded. If I can solo, the basketball hoop is 3 feet off the ground. Making a group in that situation would be closing my eyes. When will you figure out those ain't the same?
I want the baketball hoop 10 feet high. I do not want you to lower it. That means you can't make it easy for me to solo. That would be lowering the hoop. Get it?
The most nonsensical part of your post, is you're insisting on ruining my group game, then telling me I can "play how I want". WTF? The last thing I want is solo whiners ruining the game, so stop saying a dev is not deciding how we play if they make it solo friendly.
It HAS to work both ways. If you make ti solo friendly you've ruined my grouping game, so a DEV has decided how I should play and waht is fun.
I don't want to be able to easily solo the game, that ruins the game for me. screw that.
I have to label you as an imbicile for your inane comparision between basketball and MMO's. Now that that is done, I will try to explain how soloing and grouping can co-exist using an MMO that allows both - DDO.
Grouping is more rewarding because a group can: do each dungeon much faster than a soloer, complete optional objectives that not all classes can [thus preventing some soloers from doing them], do dungeons of much higher difficulty than a soloer, and get the exact same amount of experience regardless of the number of players. Because of this, groups level faster and see more of each dungeon than soloers.
Many soloers do so FOR the challenge of soloing - because it IS harder, and don't expect that the dungeons will be made easier for them. DDO did add some very low level solo content to help soloers get started and to give people something to do while they wait for a group, but as a whole the game is not designed to solo.
The only argument that would be valid is that if people were soloing, they would not be grouping at that same time. However, since grouping is more efficient, most people group when possible and only solo when: they've recently grouped in a PUG that went bad, they only have a short time to be online, or at that time, they are looking for the challenge of soloing.
Personally, I solo 99% of the time in every game - AC, DAoC, Ryzom, COV, LOTRO, DDO - because I want to enjoy the game. Not wait for player x, or deal with obnoxious player y, or be told what to do by player z. If it takes me 2x, 3x, 10x as long to advance in the game, so be it - it is my choice.
Here's the deal. Some people like to solo. Some don't. Your job is to find the ones who like to group up and play with them. Stop asking for devs to make grouping mandatory. The fact of the matter is, if grouping were fun and rewarding, more people would do it. IMO, grouping is almost always a chore. It takes time to get a group together, and then there's always that guy who goes AFK every few minutes, and then there's the person who decides to drop from the group mid way through a quest. Blah! I find playing solo while chatting with people in open chat to be much more fun. Oh, and forced grouping games are the most anti-sandbox games out there. The last thing I want or need is a dev deciding how I should play and what fun is. Screw that.
How could grouping possibly be fun and rewarding, if you can solo? That makes no sense. It's like you're saying, hey, we lowered the basketball hoop to 3 feet, because not everyone likes to make a hard shot. But if you want it to be harder, just close your eyes. See, everyone can play how they want!
Uh, no, that's retarded. If I can solo, the basketball hoop is 3 feet off the ground. Making a group in that situation would be closing my eyes. When will you figure out those ain't the same?
I want the baketball hoop 10 feet high. I do not want you to lower it. That means you can't make it easy for me to solo. That would be lowering the hoop. Get it?
The most nonsensical part of your post, is you're insisting on ruining my group game, then telling me I can "play how I want". WTF? The last thing I want is solo whiners ruining the game, so stop saying a dev is not deciding how we play if they make it solo friendly.
It HAS to work both ways. If you make ti solo friendly you've ruined my grouping game, so a DEV has decided how I should play and waht is fun.
I don't want to be able to easily solo the game, that ruins the game for me. screw that.
I have to label you as an imbicile for your inane comparision between basketball and MMO's. Now that that is done, I will try to explain how soloing and grouping can co-exist using an MMO that allows both - DDO.
Grouping is more rewarding because a group can: do each dungeon much faster than a soloer, complete optional objectives that not all classes can [thus preventing some soloers from doing them], do dungeons of much higher difficulty than a soloer, and get the exact same amount of experience regardless of the number of players. Because of this, groups level faster and see more of each dungeon than soloers.
Many soloers do so FOR the challenge of soloing - because it IS harder, and don't expect that the dungeons will be made easier for them. DDO did add some very low level solo content to help soloers get started and to give people something to do while they wait for a group, but as a whole the game is not designed to solo.
The only argument that would be valid is that if people were soloing, they would not be grouping at that same time. However, since grouping is more efficient, most people group when possible and only solo when: they've recently grouped in a PUG that went bad, they only have a short time to be online, or at that time, they are looking for the challenge of soloing.
Personally, I solo 99% of the time in every game - AC, DAoC, Ryzom, COV, LOTRO, DDO - because I want to enjoy the game. Not wait for player x, or deal with obnoxious player y, or be told what to do by player z. If it takes me 2x, 3x, 10x as long to advance in the game, so be it - it is my choice.
If' you're saying, yes you COULD solo in EQ, EQ2, and DAoC, therefore you can have solo play in a good grouping game, then I agree.
If you're saying, make it as solo friendly as WoW, but hey, you can still group if you WANT to, so that's a good grouping game, then no, that misses the point entirely.
If you were fine soloing hte original DAoC, before the expansions, then fine, we can play the same game and enjoy it. No problems. Most, however, considered the original DAoC, forced grouping.
The truth about any MMORPG is that you can learn a lot about yourself while playing.. If you aren't interested in taking time to get to know the people around you so they'd enjoy grouping and chatting with you then, that's your problem. I like grouping, but to tell you the truth I do not like how everyone plays, or even some people's personality and I've been a guild master with over 300 guild members. I've had to manage a lot of different personalities from 13 yr olds to 50 yr olds and it was a headache.
Simply put, the game itself is a journey and for those people who have the time to play frequent enough to form bonds with people to group with then good for you. Those people who play have children and other responsibilities and play whenever they have free time..they should be able to jump into action shortly after logging on if that's what they want.
In my opinion, if you expect to log on to any game and have everyone who is logged on giving a damn about who you are.. then you are asking for too much. You have to meet people and build relationship. I wouldn't want to be forced to group because there's no guaruntee that random groups would be coehisive or enjoyable. If you have a problem getting to know people and forming bonds with people don't mind grouping with you...then that says more about your personality than the game design. Although joining a guild and automatically expecting people to group with you or to help with quests without getting to know the people in the guild.. is once again your problem. Your experience with most guilds have a lot to do with what you bring into the guild. Some guilds that have been established for a long time may be hard to crack into socially, but most of every good guild will make you feel at home if you put forth a decent effort to become part of the guild and socialize with its members.
Some of these post reminds me of that loser kid in everyone's kindergarden class who is obnoxious, spoiled, and an all around drag, but the teacher forces class mates to play with him cuz he whines and cries when he is left out. So if that is your motivation for wanting a group forcing MMO then guess what even if one is made people still wouldn't want to group with you. Sorry the $14.99 a month subscription fee doesn't include a personality transplant, sucks doesn't it?
MMORPG played in order played: Sims Online, WoW, CoX, EQ2, LinksRealm, LOTRO,TOR...and counting
HhusskCity of Heroes CorrespondentMemberPosts: 219
I'd like to explain why I think solo play is so valuable, but first, it should be pointed out that solo play really shines in a sandbox MMO.
When you first began playing, the world is new. You're inexperienced, fresh, and open-minded. As you begin your travels and adventures, it's like learning to walk...except, instead of walking, you're learning to interact with the world around you.
What makes you different are your choices. When you have the capability of developing yourself through solo play, you begin to build a personality. Maybe you choose to be weak in a certain area. Maybe you're a cleric who's specialities are blessings...and not healings. Maybe you're a mage who is gifted at brokering information. Maybe the point of your character is to show up only in times of dire need. During other times, you hermit in the caves to the north.
Yet, If the game is linear, every priest is like every other priest, every thief like every other thief. You have to follow quests. You have to group in order to gather. Soon enough, grouping is really just an act of finding random people. This isn't to dissuade against linear games, but there's little flavor to your personality if every other mage has trained exactly the same as you.
And so the real reason people play solo isn't because they don't like to group. It's because are trying to immerse themselves. Don't mistake my comment. Solo players want to PvP, they want to group. They just don't want to be forced to follow a path. They want independence. They want to decide when, where, and why.
Take a quest involving a powerful relic. Perhaps your Barbarian acquired a map to its location. Using solo play, he heads there and approaches the entrance. Immediately, he notices the overwhelming odds. Fearing his quest may be discovered by seeking minds, he heads to an urban district of the city, and approaches a friend he made who works with the Thieves' guild. They agree to quest together, and began searching out for a spell-maker...and so on.
Solo play is the first instance of roleplay.
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I solo because you don't pay my subscription, I do. Likewise, I don't pay yours either.
With solo comes freedom. Freedom to do as i wish and grant me the satisfaction in knowing that i feel my subscription is a good investment.
When i am alone, i choose to go where i want, when i want and for however long i want.
I can go afk at a moments notice without wasting my group mates time, i can log off without feeling guilty for leaving a group high and dry.
I prefer the mmo arena to solo in because they just don't make very engaging never ending rpg's anymore. One side benefit to soloing in an open world is seeing other people doing their thing. Their movements, their actions bring vitality to the game world. They dont appear as scripted npc's.
I am not against grouping, just against forced grouping. I am not against raiding, just against the concept that raiding is the be all end all of what is considered fun.
In the early days of Everquest, people grouped openly and often. Grouping was fun. At some point guilding changed peoples mindsets and pickup groups took on a stigma. "I only group with guild mates" "I only group with people i trust and know", things like that.
I have always been a fan of the exp gain style where all mobs are roughly equal in terms of difficulty. I know what you are going to say, "what is the point of grouping then?". The answer is quicker exp gain, safety in numbers and comraderie.
Instead, mmo developers have taken the stance where they partition and segment their population, hearding people into different areas, different zones based on if they want to solo group or raid. This stance wastes virtual playable area, lessens developmental man hours and fragments communities.
So, as for myself, i solo because i am the one making the choices and choosing my path. In a way it limits the amount of the world i can see and lore i can discover, but i am staying true to my beliefs and can be satisfied knowing that i made the call.
90% of the people in this thread prefer a solo friendly game.
10% of the people in this thread prefer a forced grouping game.
If you were a mmorpg developer, which crowd would you write your game for?
Oh, there were mmorpgs that were made in the past to cater to the forced grouping crowd (EQ2, Vanguard, etc), and within a year, they had added solo content, because noone was playing their game.
The game developers figured it out eventually......why can't you?
I see this issue of grouping vs. soloing in MMO's as kind of like the game of table tennis. Also known as ping pong.
Ping pong is of course played better with two people and better yet with four people. But you are penalized by the amount of talking that goes on (if you don't like the people you are playing), the amount of balls you get to hit (cutting down on the fun facture), the possibility that your partner sucks, and of course the possibility of ultimately losing to another team. Now of course these are more or less based on each game of ping pong and whom you are playing it with. And of course there is the alternate way, just fold up the other side of the table and away you go playing by yourself, see "soloing". Now again there is some advantages and disadvantages to this. You have to play by yourself which again sucks for some and for some its ok. You are only playing against a piece of wood so that prob wouldn’t be much satisfaction when you "win". Also you have no human interaction, which is the big one for me.
I'd like to state that I am fully for a game the supports grouping. Not forced grouping but encourages it. I played FFXI for the longest time and admittingly I did not know much about MMO's at that point and not looking back that game forces you to group which at this point in my life I do not agree with. But back than when I thought that FFXI only encouraged grouping I saw it as one of the funniest games that I have ever played in my life. I love the aspect of interacting with other people, the different personalities, the different styles of play, and of course the occasional assbag that you get in each group. I had no qualms with someone going AFK for awhile to get a drink or do a errand, maybe that was partly because if you didn't have 2 WHMS in FFXI you had a little down time after each battle. But I digress.....I think that a game should offer solo content, of course, but I also believe that a MMO is a MassMulitplayerOnline Game and the name says it all for me. I play MMO's because I don't like to do many things by myself and one of those things is to play video games so I like the grouping aspect of most MMO's. I think that MMO's should neither reward nor penalize grouping or solo players. I think that if FFXI had a little more solo content that they would have perfected the medium between grouping and solo MMO's.
That’s my two cents on the subject.
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There is more than one way to be social in these games or enjoy other people around you. Grouping is just one of these ways.
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Yes, I'm happy to group with a RL friend or two, and I do so quite frequently, but I never PUG with strangers because way too many of them are immature, inarticulate and/or dumb as rocks. Even knowing this, I'll throw someone a bone and grudgingly help them finish a quest or kill a mob, and then they stick you on their "friends" list and bug you for weeks. Sad, but true.
I thought a little about forced grouping, and the biggest argument against it i have heard is that "I dont always have the time to find a group", but if all content requires a group, wouldnt everyone be looking for one? How hard can it be to find a group then?
I really wish there would be more grouping rewards or even grouping requirements in MMOs, it is multiplayer games afterall, if you want single player RPGs there are plenty of them out there
Re-read your first paragraph and pay close attention to the words "wouldnt everyone be looking for one?" 'cos it sums up exactly what the problem is in games that require forced grouping; yes .. quite literally everyone woulld, and there will always come a time when the group is full, or lacking a critical class, and players would be left on the side-lines.
If you had a free hour and fancied playing the game, would you find it fun to spend that hour LFG?
Yes, there are plenty of single-player RPGs out there, however there are alsoplenty of non-MMO multiplayer games out there too and the solo playstyle is every bit as valid as the grouping one .. and why is it that when this topic comes up it's invariably posted by someone who's pro-grouping and evidentally thinks that solo players are merely being selfish in that they don't share his/her taste in playstyle and hence should be forced into it by the mechanics of the game.
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While in a forced grouping game everyone might be looking for a group, it does not mean that they would be looking to group for the same things as you. The more varied the content of a game is, the wider will the population will be distributed accross the content. People looking for dungeon groups might not all be looking for the same dungeon. People looking to do quests will not all want to play in the same zone. People who completed a quest chain will prefer not to do it again and want to move on to higher level content.
The more generic the content is the more likely you are to find a group for it. Older MMOs that were mostly grinding mobs for XP could force grouping easily since the players were gonna do the same thing anyway.
Also, let's drop the silly 'just play single player games' argument. People play play MMOs so they can interact with other people online. This does not necessary have to be in the form of grouping for everything.
This.
MMO's are games where grouping and community interaction should be greatly encouraged, but not necessarily forced. For example, most rewards available through grouping should also be available through solo play, but at greatly increased difficulty / time.
I don't want to solo ALL the time, but I am not able to group ALL the time either. Both playstyles can be accomadated, each with its own tradeoff in terms of difficulty and time. Truely epic content is a different matter, that kind of material should be locked behind many barriers, possibly including group / raid content and enforced solo trials.
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Point is, not everyone wants to group. We are all busy in mmos and are probaly doing quests. If someone turns you down and states "I will do better on my own" than yes, you are looking at grouping being a negative element in mmorpgs(which originally was supposed to be a positive element.) Try joining a game were grouping will mean life or death, maybe than you will get some parties.
"i have a lvl 26 maplestory warrior lvl 9 asda story archer and a adventure quest mage lvl 15 and my xfire is my bro's"
Read the various forums on this site.
Take in the average personality you see here.
Then realize those people are in this MMO (which ever one).
If you really have to ask what the point of soloing is after that... then there is no hope you will understand.
LOL...wow....
no...grouping and PvP are killing MMOs as we knew them.....
Only as far as the game industry catering to the morons who think grouping and PvP is where it's at....
The first MMos had it all....except PvP....which was the best of times.....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Not single player games with constantly changing content, an active auction house amply supplied by players who are crafting and gathering, events such as Christmas mirrored in-game, and a chat function.
My biggest reason to object to forced grouping is that far too many players are rude, inarticulate, immature and about as much use as a ball and chain on the leg of a long-distance swimmer.
I wonder why you never see people who prefer to solo saying "I wish there was less group-oriented stuff" - ahh, that's because we can solo most group-oriented stuff because it's generally so easy!
Oh, and for the final time to all the slow-witted - "multiplayer" just means the game is played by a lot of players. The word "grouping" doesn't actually appear in the description.
the reason i solo is cause people are bad players thats why i only group with my guild or rl freinds if not its quite rare
I actually find that entertaining. I'm playng an online MMORPG because of the unexpected experiences I will have grouping with other players. Not to get loot, not to be l33t, not for the quests and stale story lines that dont' change the game world, not for going "ding" when I get a level, or a new skill level.
So a bunch of asshats getting the group wiped is perfectly fine, because I'm entertained, and that's all I"m looking for from the game.
Ha! You just proved my point--your definition of success is not mainstream. I do believe this is the first time I've ever heard of someone being fine with an asshat-initiated teamwipe. An "earned" defeat is fine to me, but asshattery and stupidity are not. I may not care about grinding to level up and get loot, but I do want to level. I want to progress and see what comes next, both personally and story-wise, and I can't do that if I'm constantly in XP debt. I team when I can, but I solo when I either can't find a good team or just don't feel like putting up with other people.
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The less you expect, the more you'll be surprised. Hopefully, pleasantly so.
I actually find that entertaining. I'm playng an online MMORPG because of the unexpected experiences I will have grouping with other players. Not to get loot, not to be l33t, not for the quests and stale story lines that dont' change the game world, not for going "ding" when I get a level, or a new skill level.
So a bunch of asshats getting the group wiped is perfectly fine, because I'm entertained, and that's all I"m looking for from the game.
Ha! You just proved my point--your definition of success is not mainstream. I do believe this is the first time I've ever heard of someone being fine with an asshat-initiated teamwipe. An "earned" defeat is fine to me, but asshattery and stupidity are not. I may not care about grinding to level up and get loot, but I do want to level. I want to progress and see what comes next, both personally and story-wise, and I can't do that if I'm constantly in XP debt. I team when I can, but I solo when I either can't find a good team or just don't feel like putting up with other people.
Well I agree completely. Solo friendly games are mainstream, as evidenced by WoW. Before you get to end game raiding the game is geared for solo play. I tried, went bleh, this is a solo game, and promptly quit. I liked EQ, EQ2, DAoC, they were good grouping games. City of Heroes was fun, but not a good grouping game. Yes, you COULD get a group in City of Heroes, but that doesnt' make it a good grouping game, IMO, since the dungeons scaled, most of the time grouping was pointless, although fun.
So sure, I readily agree I dont' like WoW, and that is not mainstream.
Guilds are not much help with grouping these days.
Your lucky if your guild is big enough to have 30 people online at peak time, and off peak those numbers drop to 1 or 2.
Of those guildies online, only a small number if any are going to be a similar level and doing the same quests/missions.
Guilds are more for chat, helping your guild mates with essential quests they cannot solo and raids (if you like raiding).
Well, that's your experience. The games I've played, no matter the guild size, they are happy to help
and include you in groups. Help you with quests, etc.
Why not play single player games online and have a chatroom up in the corner while you do it? To me that would make more sense for you and you would get out a lot cheaper. I don't think grouping should be mandatory but I think it should be encouraged. I understand folks should be able to solo but like you said nothing should be forced like solo to level.
Grouping should be beneficial as well as solo when leveling. I think there should be no grouping penalties first of all, this is a MMO for goodness sakes! WoW did some things right though, I absolutely loved their instance dungeons all the way up 1- 60. A friend and I leveled only by means of dungeons one time 1-60 and this was before any xp changes were made to the game. It was the most fun I have ever had in WoW. He was playing a priest and I was playing a warrior. We never had to wait for a group the entire time for more than one minute.
We also had all the little dungeon sets all the way up. It was a lot of fun and I feel people that didn't run those dungeons at least once each, missed out greatly in some fun. We ran each one aprox. 3-5 times each, that includes alliance and horde side dungeons that we could access. Even though I was horde, I didn't want to miss deadmines! Well I got off track, what needs to happen is no xp penalties for grouping. These are group games after all. Yes solo is fine, but encouragement to group is great too.
Well grouping is good sometimes, but like someone said its sometimes a chor and annoying...
and serious why would I group to kill mindless AI? for me grouping is necessery in EVE only as you do need people around you in 0.0, be it holding a gate while you get supplies or just raping or being raped by other players, you need comradery to keep you interested and safe.
This end game BS in wow I just do not understand, and 90% of other games for that matter, why would I kill x billion mindless, dumb as fu*k mob just so I can group at lvl 80 and raid....... get this.... more fu*king dumb as fuck mob, are you people mental? do you have a brain? can you sit there and seriously say you enjoy this BS? and your PROUD of killing x billion mindless, stupid, worthless, dumb as fu*k mob???
I seriousley do not see the point to this, could someone enlighten me please?, Thank you
I rarely group as I don't play well with other kids (in game and irl). I play MMOs for the non-combat aspects, crafting, AH, etc... you don't get those in single player games...
Actually there is some evidence that solo or group oriented play may not be the reason games succeed. Ultima Online use to be the largest game and it was very solo friendly. Then came along EQ which was much more group oriented and it out did Ultima Online. Next we have WoW which was solo friendly and it had success.
I am not saying it doesn't play a part or that it doesn't. The evidence just isn't conclusive to declare this a fact. I personally think solo and group have a place in MMORPGs. I do think that the current crop of MMOs are a bit unfriendly towards grouping and more group incentive would be nice during leveling. Also for the solo player maybe some nice long quest chains need to be added at the end to acquire gear that is unique for a advancement path for those fellas that don't like grouping.
I think the quest should be long and tough so the solo folks can be proud to wear their long hard earned gear. IT should be unique looking and have nice stats. I think raids should be there as well with nice unique attractive gear with nice stats. No one can deny though the group game needs attention right now in MMOs. It is becoming more penalized over the years.
How could grouping possibly be fun and rewarding, if you can solo? That makes no sense. It's like you're saying, hey, we lowered the basketball hoop to 3 feet, because not everyone likes to make a hard shot. But if you want it to be harder, just close your eyes. See, everyone can play how they want!
Uh, no, that's retarded. If I can solo, the basketball hoop is 3 feet off the ground. Making a group in that situation would be closing my eyes. When will you figure out those ain't the same?
I want the baketball hoop 10 feet high. I do not want you to lower it. That means you can't make it easy for me to solo. That would be lowering the hoop. Get it?
The most nonsensical part of your post, is you're insisting on ruining my group game, then telling me I can "play how I want". WTF? The last thing I want is solo whiners ruining the game, so stop saying a dev is not deciding how we play if they make it solo friendly.
It HAS to work both ways. If you make ti solo friendly you've ruined my grouping game, so a DEV has decided how I should play and waht is fun.
I don't want to be able to easily solo the game, that ruins the game for me. screw that.
I have to label you as an imbicile for your inane comparision between basketball and MMO's. Now that that is done, I will try to explain how soloing and grouping can co-exist using an MMO that allows both - DDO.
Grouping is more rewarding because a group can: do each dungeon much faster than a soloer, complete optional objectives that not all classes can [thus preventing some soloers from doing them], do dungeons of much higher difficulty than a soloer, and get the exact same amount of experience regardless of the number of players. Because of this, groups level faster and see more of each dungeon than soloers.
Many soloers do so FOR the challenge of soloing - because it IS harder, and don't expect that the dungeons will be made easier for them. DDO did add some very low level solo content to help soloers get started and to give people something to do while they wait for a group, but as a whole the game is not designed to solo.
The only argument that would be valid is that if people were soloing, they would not be grouping at that same time. However, since grouping is more efficient, most people group when possible and only solo when: they've recently grouped in a PUG that went bad, they only have a short time to be online, or at that time, they are looking for the challenge of soloing.
Personally, I solo 99% of the time in every game - AC, DAoC, Ryzom, COV, LOTRO, DDO - because I want to enjoy the game. Not wait for player x, or deal with obnoxious player y, or be told what to do by player z. If it takes me 2x, 3x, 10x as long to advance in the game, so be it - it is my choice.
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How could grouping possibly be fun and rewarding, if you can solo? That makes no sense. It's like you're saying, hey, we lowered the basketball hoop to 3 feet, because not everyone likes to make a hard shot. But if you want it to be harder, just close your eyes. See, everyone can play how they want!
Uh, no, that's retarded. If I can solo, the basketball hoop is 3 feet off the ground. Making a group in that situation would be closing my eyes. When will you figure out those ain't the same?
I want the baketball hoop 10 feet high. I do not want you to lower it. That means you can't make it easy for me to solo. That would be lowering the hoop. Get it?
The most nonsensical part of your post, is you're insisting on ruining my group game, then telling me I can "play how I want". WTF? The last thing I want is solo whiners ruining the game, so stop saying a dev is not deciding how we play if they make it solo friendly.
It HAS to work both ways. If you make ti solo friendly you've ruined my grouping game, so a DEV has decided how I should play and waht is fun.
I don't want to be able to easily solo the game, that ruins the game for me. screw that.
I have to label you as an imbicile for your inane comparision between basketball and MMO's. Now that that is done, I will try to explain how soloing and grouping can co-exist using an MMO that allows both - DDO.
Grouping is more rewarding because a group can: do each dungeon much faster than a soloer, complete optional objectives that not all classes can [thus preventing some soloers from doing them], do dungeons of much higher difficulty than a soloer, and get the exact same amount of experience regardless of the number of players. Because of this, groups level faster and see more of each dungeon than soloers.
Many soloers do so FOR the challenge of soloing - because it IS harder, and don't expect that the dungeons will be made easier for them. DDO did add some very low level solo content to help soloers get started and to give people something to do while they wait for a group, but as a whole the game is not designed to solo.
The only argument that would be valid is that if people were soloing, they would not be grouping at that same time. However, since grouping is more efficient, most people group when possible and only solo when: they've recently grouped in a PUG that went bad, they only have a short time to be online, or at that time, they are looking for the challenge of soloing.
Personally, I solo 99% of the time in every game - AC, DAoC, Ryzom, COV, LOTRO, DDO - because I want to enjoy the game. Not wait for player x, or deal with obnoxious player y, or be told what to do by player z. If it takes me 2x, 3x, 10x as long to advance in the game, so be it - it is my choice.
If' you're saying, yes you COULD solo in EQ, EQ2, and DAoC, therefore you can have solo play in a good grouping game, then I agree.
If you're saying, make it as solo friendly as WoW, but hey, you can still group if you WANT to, so that's a good grouping game, then no, that misses the point entirely.
If you were fine soloing hte original DAoC, before the expansions, then fine, we can play the same game and enjoy it. No problems. Most, however, considered the original DAoC, forced grouping.
So maybe now you can beging to see the analogy.
The truth about any MMORPG is that you can learn a lot about yourself while playing.. If you aren't interested in taking time to get to know the people around you so they'd enjoy grouping and chatting with you then, that's your problem. I like grouping, but to tell you the truth I do not like how everyone plays, or even some people's personality and I've been a guild master with over 300 guild members. I've had to manage a lot of different personalities from 13 yr olds to 50 yr olds and it was a headache.
Simply put, the game itself is a journey and for those people who have the time to play frequent enough to form bonds with people to group with then good for you. Those people who play have children and other responsibilities and play whenever they have free time..they should be able to jump into action shortly after logging on if that's what they want.
In my opinion, if you expect to log on to any game and have everyone who is logged on giving a damn about who you are.. then you are asking for too much. You have to meet people and build relationship. I wouldn't want to be forced to group because there's no guaruntee that random groups would be coehisive or enjoyable. If you have a problem getting to know people and forming bonds with people don't mind grouping with you...then that says more about your personality than the game design. Although joining a guild and automatically expecting people to group with you or to help with quests without getting to know the people in the guild.. is once again your problem. Your experience with most guilds have a lot to do with what you bring into the guild. Some guilds that have been established for a long time may be hard to crack into socially, but most of every good guild will make you feel at home if you put forth a decent effort to become part of the guild and socialize with its members.
Some of these post reminds me of that loser kid in everyone's kindergarden class who is obnoxious, spoiled, and an all around drag, but the teacher forces class mates to play with him cuz he whines and cries when he is left out. So if that is your motivation for wanting a group forcing MMO then guess what even if one is made people still wouldn't want to group with you. Sorry the $14.99 a month subscription fee doesn't include a personality transplant, sucks doesn't it?
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I'd like to explain why I think solo play is so valuable, but first, it should be pointed out that solo play really shines in a sandbox MMO.
When you first began playing, the world is new. You're inexperienced, fresh, and open-minded. As you begin your travels and adventures, it's like learning to walk...except, instead of walking, you're learning to interact with the world around you.
What makes you different are your choices. When you have the capability of developing yourself through solo play, you begin to build a personality. Maybe you choose to be weak in a certain area. Maybe you're a cleric who's specialities are blessings...and not healings. Maybe you're a mage who is gifted at brokering information. Maybe the point of your character is to show up only in times of dire need. During other times, you hermit in the caves to the north.
Yet, If the game is linear, every priest is like every other priest, every thief like every other thief. You have to follow quests. You have to group in order to gather. Soon enough, grouping is really just an act of finding random people. This isn't to dissuade against linear games, but there's little flavor to your personality if every other mage has trained exactly the same as you.
And so the real reason people play solo isn't because they don't like to group. It's because are trying to immerse themselves. Don't mistake my comment. Solo players want to PvP, they want to group. They just don't want to be forced to follow a path. They want independence. They want to decide when, where, and why.
Take a quest involving a powerful relic. Perhaps your Barbarian acquired a map to its location. Using solo play, he heads there and approaches the entrance. Immediately, he notices the overwhelming odds. Fearing his quest may be discovered by seeking minds, he heads to an urban district of the city, and approaches a friend he made who works with the Thieves' guild. They agree to quest together, and began searching out for a spell-maker...and so on.
Solo play is the first instance of roleplay.
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I solo because you don't pay my subscription, I do. Likewise, I don't pay yours either.
With solo comes freedom. Freedom to do as i wish and grant me the satisfaction in knowing that i feel my subscription is a good investment.
When i am alone, i choose to go where i want, when i want and for however long i want.
I can go afk at a moments notice without wasting my group mates time, i can log off without feeling guilty for leaving a group high and dry.
I prefer the mmo arena to solo in because they just don't make very engaging never ending rpg's anymore. One side benefit to soloing in an open world is seeing other people doing their thing. Their movements, their actions bring vitality to the game world. They dont appear as scripted npc's.
I am not against grouping, just against forced grouping. I am not against raiding, just against the concept that raiding is the be all end all of what is considered fun.
In the early days of Everquest, people grouped openly and often. Grouping was fun. At some point guilding changed peoples mindsets and pickup groups took on a stigma. "I only group with guild mates" "I only group with people i trust and know", things like that.
I have always been a fan of the exp gain style where all mobs are roughly equal in terms of difficulty. I know what you are going to say, "what is the point of grouping then?". The answer is quicker exp gain, safety in numbers and comraderie.
Instead, mmo developers have taken the stance where they partition and segment their population, hearding people into different areas, different zones based on if they want to solo group or raid. This stance wastes virtual playable area, lessens developmental man hours and fragments communities.
So, as for myself, i solo because i am the one making the choices and choosing my path. In a way it limits the amount of the world i can see and lore i can discover, but i am staying true to my beliefs and can be satisfied knowing that i made the call.
Let's see....
90% of the people in this thread prefer a solo friendly game.
10% of the people in this thread prefer a forced grouping game.
If you were a mmorpg developer, which crowd would you write your game for?
Oh, there were mmorpgs that were made in the past to cater to the forced grouping crowd (EQ2, Vanguard, etc), and within a year, they had added solo content, because noone was playing their game.
The game developers figured it out eventually......why can't you?
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Previously Played: UO, DAOC, Shadowbane, AC2, SWG, Horizons, COX, WOW, EQ2, LOTRO, AOC, WAR, Vanguard, Rift, SWTOR, ESO, GW2.
I see this issue of grouping vs. soloing in MMO's as kind of like the game of table tennis. Also known as ping pong.
Ping pong is of course played better with two people and better yet with four people. But you are penalized by the amount of talking that goes on (if you don't like the people you are playing), the amount of balls you get to hit (cutting down on the fun facture), the possibility that your partner sucks, and of course the possibility of ultimately losing to another team. Now of course these are more or less based on each game of ping pong and whom you are playing it with. And of course there is the alternate way, just fold up the other side of the table and away you go playing by yourself, see "soloing". Now again there is some advantages and disadvantages to this. You have to play by yourself which again sucks for some and for some its ok. You are only playing against a piece of wood so that prob wouldn’t be much satisfaction when you "win". Also you have no human interaction, which is the big one for me.
I'd like to state that I am fully for a game the supports grouping. Not forced grouping but encourages it. I played FFXI for the longest time and admittingly I did not know much about MMO's at that point and not looking back that game forces you to group which at this point in my life I do not agree with. But back than when I thought that FFXI only encouraged grouping I saw it as one of the funniest games that I have ever played in my life. I love the aspect of interacting with other people, the different personalities, the different styles of play, and of course the occasional assbag that you get in each group. I had no qualms with someone going AFK for awhile to get a drink or do a errand, maybe that was partly because if you didn't have 2 WHMS in FFXI you had a little down time after each battle. But I digress.....I think that a game should offer solo content, of course, but I also believe that a MMO is a MassMulitplayerOnline Game and the name says it all for me. I play MMO's because I don't like to do many things by myself and one of those things is to play video games so I like the grouping aspect of most MMO's. I think that MMO's should neither reward nor penalize grouping or solo players. I think that if FFXI had a little more solo content that they would have perfected the medium between grouping and solo MMO's.
That’s my two cents on the subject.
The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced.-
Frank Zappa