Originally posted by Mordaris No, you don't know the entire situation, and you just made yourself look the fool but not having a clue what you are talking about.
I knew I would get a reply like this, I shouldn't have wrote it at all. However, I chose to admit my ignorance unlike most of the people here, including yourself who choose to spout out information as irefutable facts. I originally wrote "I don't know the entire situation and I doubt any of you do either." I changed as to not overly offend someone. It stands true though, don't put me down because you are no where above me. Unless you work for NCsoft you have almost nothing to say to me. Whatever you think you know, is as good as what I think I know because none of us are directly involved. Of course correct me, maybe you work for Marvel or NCsoft and are an authority on this suit.
One more thing on this If I'm not mistaken (and yeah it's been a while since I've studied copywrites and IP), but if you fail to protect or make attempts to protect your copywrite, or IP, then you'll eventually lose your rights to the material, so if that still holds true then IMO Marvel really had no choice.
Also, fair use? It's up to a judge to decide what "fair use" actually is in this case and if NCSoft was in any way negligent in how they put their system together, and how much that system actually infringes on Marvel's property. (I love messageboard lawyering!! )
I personally think Cryptic and NCSoft are at fault here since this very issue was brought to their attention on numerous occassions by their player base (as has been mentioned) and was downplayed or ignored so, IMO, that fact alone will hurt them a lot.
Maybe I'll sneak over to the CoH sites and see how the fires are burning on their boards :P
Seriously though, Cryptic are good developers (though their game just isn't for me at all) and I hate they got caught up in this (even though they could have done a lot more to prevent it). Hopefully NCSoft will reach an agreement with Marvel and everyone can kiss and make up and move on.
This is sad, truly sad. The fact that so many posters here are rabid CoH haters is also sad. This is supposed to be a discussion, not a "Geez I really hate CoH so LOOK ANOTHER WAY TO BASH THEM! Yay!" thread.
What is truly at stake here is NOT Marvel's greed, or NCSoft's inability to adequately police it's player base, it is the FUTURE of gaming. Do you not all see the ugly precedent that this will create if Marvel is successful? Corporate greed is not exclusive to Marvel, but they are certainly establishing themselves as one of the worst.
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I hope Marvel dont win... whats it gonna be next ?
LOTR are going to sue all medieval fantasy mmorpg ? Cause in all ive played, I always encountered elfs named Legolas, dwarf named Gimli, etc. and most of the classes came from there.
And Square are going to sue lots of asian based mmorpg because you always see characters named Sephiroth, Cloud, etc...
They should acknowledge 3 reality about that :
1- The people creating characters who look like, for exemple, The Hulk, are most likely fans of The Hulk.
2- This is free publicity in the online world.
3- Will I get sued by Square if I go to a costplay disguised as Cloud ? no (LOL costplay LOL)
Ayway :
Screw Marvel... They make crappy films filled with action, love, mindlessness and american-ness with no sense of art what so ever.
They make poor movie for $$
They sue game makers because they think they should have copyright over everything related to super-zeros, when they arnt the only publisher of that kind (DC comics...)
Who do you think will keep the $$, Marvel or the creator of the heroes who where "copied" ? Marvel of course... they have the copyright over all the work of their artist...
I never paid for anything done by Marvel, and it wont change.
I dont think this lawsuit is any sign of greed on marvel's part. It is sueing CoH based on the fact that NC soft is making money off a game that allows the creation of characters which are copyrighted and the intellectual property of Marvel. There was no consent given by Marvel to NCsoft to use these characters or their likeness'. So the lawsuit has nothing to todo with Marvel being greedy or hating NCsoft. Anyone who believes that is small minded and needs to realize that companies are not young children like them and have copyrights and trademarks that they rely upon for income. When another company violites these copyrights and trademarks then the only one to blame is the offending company, in this case NCsoft. NCsoft allowed the possibility of Marvel's characters to be created in their game, and they charge for this game, so therefor they are profiting off of another companies trademark. Learn the law before you bash a company for protecting their interest, and the interests of their stockholders and employees.
1- The people creating characters who look like, for exemple, The Hulk, are most likely fans of The Hulk.
2- This is free publicity in the online world.
3- Will I get sued by Square if I go to a costplay disguised as Cloud ? no (LOL costplay LOL)
The difference here is whether or not you plan to make money by dressing up as Cloud. That is the point of the lawsuit (even then typically only gross use of the intellectual property in which the violator amasses either alot of attention or money). CoH makes money off the fact that they allow people to play characters that are the intellectual property of marvel.
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Originally posted by vmoped So the lawsuit has nothing to todo with Marvel being greedy or hating NCsoft. Anyone who believes that is small minded and needs to realize that companies are not young children like them and have copyrights and trademarks that they rely upon for income. When another company violites these copyrights and trademarks then the only one to blame is the offending company, in this case NCsoft. NCsoft allowed the possibility of Marvel's characters to be created in their game, and they charge for this game, so therefor they are profiting off of another companies trademark. The difference here is whether or not you plan to make money by dressing up as Cloud. That is the point of the lawsuit (even then typically only gross use of the intellectual property in which the violator amasses either alot of attention or money). CoH makes money off the fact that they allow people to play characters that are the intellectual property of marvel.
1- Who the "/$"/$ do you think you are ??? actually i know a lot about copyright and intellectual property, im an engineer, i have 2 patent... The reason im saying Marvel sucks is because they keep the copyright over the creators. One of my friend (engineer) was in a project to build a electrical motor for cars, located in the wheels, he did all the design then he was fired, the company sold the rights to a gas company and the project died, thats what happen when a big cie take the credit for what their creators have done, they think money, money,MONEY !
2- NCSoft are not making money by allowing people to create a copy of the Hulk, they made a super hero based mmorpg with good character customization. The same way most medieval games are inspired by LOTR. And DC comix could sue too...
1- Who the "/$"/$ do you think you are ??? actually i know a lot about copyright and intellectual property, im an engineer, i have 2 patent... The reason im saying Marvel sucks is because they keep the copyright over the creators. One of my friend (engineer) was in a project to build a electrical motor for cars, located in the wheels, he did all the design then he was fired, the company sold the rights to a gas company and the project died, thats what happen when a big cie take the credit for what their creators have done, they think money, money,MONEY !
Well for one I dont need to imply cursing to make my point; two this lawsuit has nothing to do with how Marvel conducts it's business with the artists that it employs; and lastly we live in a capitalist economy which is driven on greed. We can sit on these forums all day long and argue how well informed we are in relation to copyright and patent laws. I am not doubting your knowledge on the subject, as I myself, am quite knowledgeble on the subject, having exercised these laws in court.
2- NCSoft are not making money by allowing people to create a copy of the Hulk, they made a super hero based mmorpg with good character customization. The same way most medieval games are inspired by LOTR. And DC comix could sue too...
They designed the system and are therefore aware (or should be) of all possibilities that exist, and hence are responsible for the fact that you can pay to play this game and make extremely close likeness' of wolverine and/or the hulk.
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Well for one I dont need to imply cursing to make my point;
THis is as bad as cursing and this is why i cursed :
Anyone who believes that is small minded and needs to realize that companies are not young children like them and have copyrights and trademarks that they rely upon for income.
They designed the system and are therefore aware (or should be) of all possibilities that exist, and hence are responsible for the fact that you can pay to play this game and make extremely close likeness' of wolverine and/or the hulk.
Ok but when is LOTR going to sue alll medieval games with elves, dwarf, orc, etc...
I know they have the right to sue, but in my eyes this is pure Abuse of the copyrights, abuse driven by greed.
How long is the copyright for litterature ? because according to the law in Canada, they would have lost their copyright a long time ago.
Originally posted by FireUp Ok but when is LOTR going to sue alll medieval games with elves, dwarf, orc, etc... I know they have the right to sue, but in my eyes this is pure Abuse of the copyrights, abuse driven by greed.
JRR Tolkien did not invent the notion of dwarves or elves. Where did you get that idea?
JRR Tolkien did not invent the notion of dwarves or elves. Where did you get that idea?
He didnt, but he wrote all the lore to define the races we now know. He took elements from the collective imagination and build a story around it. Most medieval fantasy games do follow those classics.
And btw, Marvel didnt invent Hulk nor wolverines, they signed the artist doing them.
Originally posted by FireUp JRR Tolkien did not invent the notion of dwarves or elves. Where did you get that idea? He didnt, but he wrote all the lore to define the races we now know. He took elements from the collective imagination and build a story around it. Most medieval fantasy games do follow those classics.--------------------------------------------- Loved : Wish, DnL, Vanguards, Tabula Risa, Mourning Hated : EQ, UO, AC, DaoC lol
In my mind, that means he deosn't own it.
I think it has been proven that he owns the right to Ents (treants) though...
Anyway, this is really beisde th point of this thread...
I think Marvel should protect its IP. That is the bottom line. If some lawyer has told them that allowing the game to continue using its IP likenesses could hurt its future ownership IP, then they should do something about it.
Some of us may sit here and say, what hell, cheap bastards, greddy bastards, why not let someone make a character that look slike the Hulk.
Then if you were to read that Marvel has now lost the rights to the Hulk Character because of it, then everyone will say that they should have protected it when they had the chance.
This exact same thing happend to FASA years back (or whoever bought them, I don't rmember). But, anyway, they allowed some companies to use th elikeness of the MadCat Mech, then they tried to stop another company from using it, and they coudln't because they didn't protect it previously. FASA ended up losing the rights to that shape of Mech.
Anyway, same sort of thing. If you don't try to protect it in one sintance than you won't be allowed to protect it in another instance.
/agree Tasky22, ecept on treants, that is not a Tolkien original either. Tolkien's work represents a compilation of various myths upon which he expanded upon. The conception of his work has changed over the years. Just look at Tolkien's drawings of elves, dwarves, hobbits, etc..., and compare them to what we see in the movies or current artwork that is commissioned by his estate. The fact that Marvel did not create these characters once again has no bearing. The fact that they own the rights to use these characters does. The fact that Michael Jackson owns the rights to some songs originally performed and owned by the beatles, doesnt change the fact that he has the right to protect his investment in those songs.
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Ok first when I say something I belive in what I say, I really coulndt care less if Marvel go bankrupt because of the copyrights, but from all the movie they have done, im sure they are swimming in money and wil be for a long time, they dont need the money from NCSoft. They really are the Microsoft of Comics books.
Does DC comics sue NCSoft ? they would have the exact same argument then Marvel
And again about my comparison to LOTR :
I can create a tall, long blond haired elf and name him Legolas in many games (ive seen some in FFXI, Lineage 2, and other), LOTR (not Tolkien, Peter Jackson or who ever gave this look to Legolas) are not suing them.
Anyway go on encouraging big company to sue smaller one... when capitalism, greed and monopoly will be even more powerfull you'll have only yourself to blame for your lack of judgment and the fact you actually encouraged this.
I can create a tall, long blond haired elf and name him Legolas in many games (ive seen some in FFXI, Lineage 2, and other), LOTR (not Tolkien, Peter Jackson or who ever gave this look to Legolas) are not suing them.
Now if the game used the art (or a very close resemblance) of Tolkien, in reference to Legolas (assuming it is copyrighted), and then provided the player with the "powers" and "abilities" of Legolas, and placed the character in a world that is very similar to the world that Tolkien had created; then we would be on the same page as the CoH and Marvel dispute. Unfortunately tho, Tolkien's work is based off myths and stories that existed long before him, and therefore would be hard to patent. The Hulk and/or Wolverine on the other hand are more original in their conception and design.
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Since Moses received 10 commandments from Mount Sinai, this gotta be the most ridiculous "law" suit ever perpetrated by wastable mortals (I mean us including Stan Lee).
Hope that Marvel can carry all that intellectually licenced avatars for their after-life and decorate their tombstone with these toys which might or might not be real.
No offense, but allowing the creation of a big-green hulkish creature is shady at best. As is the near Wolverine clone that is creatable. This is not just a random thing that slipped through, and likely was implemented to directly cater to players wanting to be like these trademarked heroes.
However, I think its pretty hard to sue over "sorta like" and I doubt it will really get anywhere.
But as the article eludes to at the end, this is a semi-smart move for Marvel, if they do plan to release a superhero game in the near future, which is not really a longshot. If they win, they can get pickier and pickier with precedent. (Like this city looks like metropolis!). If they lose... oh well, NCsoft is out cash, and Marvel's name is out there.
Originally posted by Nevarine Well this just makes me sick. NCsoft should not be held responsible for the characters their players create. If characters that closely resemble marvel characters are created they should take this as a compliment. Grats Marvel on proving what small petty minded individuals you are.
uhh. The EULA says they OWN all the charaters you make.
O and BTW I'm on NCSoft's side. I never liked CoH or comic books.
I guess that mean that Marvel will now be seek legal damages from Crayola. Look at all the sketches that we make that resemble thier super heros. After that, they will be hitting all the pencil makers, and don't forget graphic design software.
I almost wish that Whitewolf would sue Marvel about the Blade thing to teach Marvel some common sense.
Whitewolf have prolly more grounds against Blade and Marvel then Marvel have against CoH!
- "Solo is, will always be, the main market. A MMORPG that succeed with little or no solo appeal is doing great considering they are ignoring the main player base.''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I was on MarvelComics.com website and found some email addresses and snailmail addresses in there that were referenced in regards to other law suits. Please contact these people and tell them they are alienating their client base!!! Power to the real heroes.
Allen Lipson President and Chief Executive Officer Marvel Enterprises, Inc. 10 East 40th Street New York, NY 10016
I'm surprised to see so many people on Marvel's side. Personally I hope they lose. I think this would be terrible for gaming if they were to win. I could understand if it was NCSoft that made a copy of a Marvel character but all the game does is provide a flexible character creation engine. If Marvel wins you can forget a similar character creation engine in ANY game, not just the super hero genre.
Policing their own game for copyright infringements is impossible. Marvel alone has 4700 characters many with multiple costumes/looks (even the Hulk has changed from being green to gray and is not only in ripped purple pants). And what about DC, Dark Horse, Image, tons of Indy comics....
IMHO, COH should be treated like a web hosting company. Customers can upload their data (html pages for a web host, character data for COH), and NCSoft provides the environment to make that data usefull (apache, internet connection, for a web host, game engine, internet connection for COH). I don't think the hosting company or NCSoft should be policing or be held accountable for it's customer's alleged copyright infringements.
This is common sense issue. The case is ludicrous at its low. If anyone is trying to spell words otherwise, it's flimsy attempt to make mockery of the Law.
Marvel can go f*k themselves. Napster my assss......
1) NCSoft did, in fact, know that their software could be used to create duplicates of existing heroes. The proof is on their own boards.
2) The EULA might protect them to some extent... but because NCSoft knew about it and did nothing, I doubt that the EULA would protect NCSoft.
3) NCSoft owns the characters, NOT the players, so that alone makes them liable.
4) The lawsuit is over look alikes, NOT names. Hence, this is about Trademarks and not copyrights.
5) Copyrights might last only 30 years but they can be renewed up to 5 times. I am not sure if successive copyrights are for an additional 30 years or a lesser amount of time. The same is true of Tardemarks.
6) Not pursuing a violation can cost you ownership of your IP. The most famous case in this is the term Xeroxing to mean copying. Xerox tried to stop it after that term had been in use for some time. Now the word "Xerox" can be used as a verb freely and the Xerox Corp can't do anything about it.
7) Marvel is looking at starting a Superhero MMORG of their own. It is entirely possible that Marvel is doing this to gain a share, if not all, of NCSoft.
8) Other comic producers are probably waiting to see how Marvel fairs in the courts. If Marvel wins, they may very well file their own lawsuits.
As for my opinion, I personally hope that NCSoft wins but to be honest I think Marvel will win if it goes to court (which I doubt). I think this is just a way for Marvel to force NCSoft to pay them royalties. I don't think that the players could be sued because they don't own the characters, NCSoft does.
Boycott? Rofl.. that's a good one. I read where MANY folk said they were going to boycott Marvel and buy DC. Well, guess what? Marvel owns DC folks. Don't believe it? Open up a DC comicbook and read the fine print. Marvel owns many things, not just comicbooks. Most large corps diversify their holdings. Boycotts only work against small and some medium size companies. Large corps like Marvel are immune to boycotts.
It will be very interesting to see how this one turns out.
So many people on these boards are completely ignorant of what companies own what. White Wolf owns Blade? Unless they bought the rights, before the film came out White Wolf wasn't makin' comics, much less Rise of The Midnight Sons, where Blade came from.
Anyway, onto the point. Marvel & DC are dinosaurs and all that is left for those corp giants is to come down on the ingenuitive. You can't sue NCSoft for a likeness if they have a disclaimer such as 'any resemblance to licensed likenesses owned by other companies such as Marvel, Image, DC, etc. are not intended as an infringement against those rights, blah blah blah, purely coincidental.'
I am certain the lawsuit will be considered frivolous in court and it will practically be an open and shut case. I am also certain this will be due to the possibility that NCSoft has likely been prepared for such a lawsuit.
As for Marvel & DC? I had met a former Marvel artist, Bill Willingham, once. He told me why he didn't work for them anymore. All I gotta say is, I lost any dwindling respect for Marvel/DC back then. Then Hulk and Spiderman movies are released & it's kiddie commerical hell . Disney used to be this way, and in many ways still is. I never even went to see Spiderman 2 and Hulk was so bad I immediately lose respect for people that liked it. I mean, it was horrible. They may have 4700+ characters up their sleeves, but using this as a corporate weapon is as ridiculous as suing for the use of incredibly generic character models, because there are only so many things you can do with hero creations. NCSoft should not be liable for its players' created characters. Maybe they could ban certain likeness combinations. Say, you can't resemble the Hulk or Wolverine, but you can be a green little guy with Wolverine hand razors. However, it is important to consider, this is City of HEROES. Meaning the heroes would have to be based on previous Marvel & DC superheroes to an extent. It is unfair of Marvel to take advantage because some smaller company (and yes, NCSoft IS a small company) thought about and acted on a good idea before they did. I believe Marvel wants to open its own MMORPG just like CoH. Now technically, CoH could trademark a superhero-based game, yes? It would be unfair to any number of comic book companies to rob them of the right to make an MMO based on their own characters, wouldn't it? It's unethical. Marvel has a conflict of interest here that should be more closely examined. The stories in some of their comics were good, but essentially, the art has mostly sucked and looked like 1950's Flash Gordon regurge anyway and I KNOW they didn't make him up. So I pledge now to never purchase anything from DC or Marvel or its partners (Macfarlane Toys, Games, etc.) as a result of this frivolous and petty lawsuit.
I encourage anyone with half a brain to do likewise.
Define me by my personality, not my nationality or the politics related to any nation I may live in.
"...the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem and hardly ever what we dream."
Comments
I knew I would get a reply like this, I shouldn't have wrote it at all. However, I chose to admit my ignorance unlike most of the people here, including yourself who choose to spout out information as irefutable facts. I originally wrote "I don't know the entire situation and I doubt any of you do either." I changed as to not overly offend someone. It stands true though, don't put me down because you are no where above me. Unless you work for NCsoft you have almost nothing to say to me. Whatever you think you know, is as good as what I think I know because none of us are directly involved. Of course correct me, maybe you work for Marvel or NCsoft and are an authority on this suit.
One more thing on this
If I'm not mistaken (and yeah it's been a while since I've studied copywrites and IP), but if you fail to protect or make attempts to protect your copywrite, or IP, then you'll eventually lose your rights to the material, so if that still holds true then IMO Marvel really had no choice.
Also, fair use? It's up to a judge to decide what "fair use" actually is in this case and if NCSoft was in any way negligent in how they put their system together, and how much that system actually infringes on Marvel's property. (I love messageboard lawyering!!
)
I personally think Cryptic and NCSoft are at fault here since this very issue was brought to their attention on numerous occassions by their player base (as has been mentioned) and was downplayed or ignored so, IMO, that fact alone will hurt them a lot.
Maybe I'll sneak over to the CoH sites and see how the fires are burning on their boards :P
Seriously though, Cryptic are good developers (though their game just isn't for me at all) and I hate they got caught up in this (even though they could have done a lot more to prevent it). Hopefully NCSoft will reach an agreement with Marvel and everyone can kiss and make up and move on.
This is sad, truly sad. The fact that so many posters here are rabid CoH haters is also sad. This is supposed to be a discussion, not a "Geez I really hate CoH so LOOK ANOTHER WAY TO BASH THEM! Yay!" thread.
What is truly at stake here is NOT Marvel's greed, or NCSoft's inability to adequately police it's player base, it is the FUTURE of gaming. Do you not all see the ugly precedent that this will create if Marvel is successful? Corporate greed is not exclusive to Marvel, but they are certainly establishing themselves as one of the worst.
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I hope Marvel dont win... whats it gonna be next ?
LOTR are going to sue all medieval fantasy mmorpg ? Cause in all ive played, I always encountered elfs named Legolas, dwarf named Gimli, etc. and most of the classes came from there.
And Square are going to sue lots of asian based mmorpg because you always see characters named Sephiroth, Cloud, etc...
They should acknowledge 3 reality about that :
1- The people creating characters who look like, for exemple, The Hulk, are most likely fans of The Hulk.
2- This is free publicity in the online world.
3- Will I get sued by Square if I go to a costplay disguised as Cloud ? no (LOL costplay LOL)
Ayway :
Screw Marvel... They make crappy films filled with action, love, mindlessness and american-ness with no sense of art what so ever.
They make poor movie for $$
They sue game makers because they think they should have copyright over everything related to super-zeros, when they arnt the only publisher of that kind (DC comics...)
Who do you think will keep the $$, Marvel or the creator of the heroes who where "copied" ? Marvel of course... they have the copyright over all the work of their artist...
I never paid for anything done by Marvel, and it wont change.
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Loved : Wish, DnL, Vanguards, Tabula Risa, Mourning
Hated : EQ, UO, AC, DaoC
lol
1- The people creating characters who look like, for exemple, The Hulk, are most likely fans of The Hulk.
2- This is free publicity in the online world.
3- Will I get sued by Square if I go to a costplay disguised as Cloud ? no (LOL costplay LOL)
The difference here is whether or not you plan to make money by dressing up as Cloud. That is the point of the lawsuit (even then typically only gross use of the intellectual property in which the violator amasses either alot of attention or money). CoH makes money off the fact that they allow people to play characters that are the intellectual property of marvel.
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
1- Who the "/$"/$ do you think you are ??? actually i know a lot about copyright and intellectual property, im an engineer, i have 2 patent... The reason im saying Marvel sucks is because they keep the copyright over the creators. One of my friend (engineer) was in a project to build a electrical motor for cars, located in the wheels, he did all the design then he was fired, the company sold the rights to a gas company and the project died, thats what happen when a big cie take the credit for what their creators have done, they think money, money,MONEY !
2- NCSoft are not making money by allowing people to create a copy of the Hulk, they made a super hero based mmorpg with good character customization. The same way most medieval games are inspired by LOTR. And DC comix could sue too...
---------------------------------------------
Loved : Wish, DnL, Vanguards, Tabula Risa, Mourning
Hated : EQ, UO, AC, DaoC
lol
1- Who the "/$"/$ do you think you are ??? actually i know a lot about copyright and intellectual property, im an engineer, i have 2 patent... The reason im saying Marvel sucks is because they keep the copyright over the creators. One of my friend (engineer) was in a project to build a electrical motor for cars, located in the wheels, he did all the design then he was fired, the company sold the rights to a gas company and the project died, thats what happen when a big cie take the credit for what their creators have done, they think money, money,MONEY !
Well for one I dont need to imply cursing to make my point; two this lawsuit has nothing to do with how Marvel conducts it's business with the artists that it employs; and lastly we live in a capitalist economy which is driven on greed. We can sit on these forums all day long and argue how well informed we are in relation to copyright and patent laws. I am not doubting your knowledge on the subject, as I myself, am quite knowledgeble on the subject, having exercised these laws in court.
2- NCSoft are not making money by allowing people to create a copy of the Hulk, they made a super hero based mmorpg with good character customization. The same way most medieval games are inspired by LOTR. And DC comix could sue too...
They designed the system and are therefore aware (or should be) of all possibilities that exist, and hence are responsible for the fact that you can pay to play this game and make extremely close likeness' of wolverine and/or the hulk.
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Well for one I dont need to imply cursing to make my point;
THis is as bad as cursing and this is why i cursed :
Anyone who believes that is small minded and needs to realize that companies are not young children like them and have copyrights and trademarks that they rely upon for income.
They designed the system and are therefore aware (or should be) of all possibilities that exist, and hence are responsible for the fact that you can pay to play this game and make extremely close likeness' of wolverine and/or the hulk.
Ok but when is LOTR going to sue alll medieval games with elves, dwarf, orc, etc...
I know they have the right to sue, but in my eyes this is pure Abuse of the copyrights, abuse driven by greed.
How long is the copyright for litterature ? because according to the law in Canada, they would have lost their copyright a long time ago.
Hulk was created in 1962...
JRR Tolkien did not invent the notion of dwarves or elves. Where did you get that idea?
JRR Tolkien did not invent the notion of dwarves or elves. Where did you get that idea?
He didnt, but he wrote all the lore to define the races we now know. He took elements from the collective imagination and build a story around it. Most medieval fantasy games do follow those classics.
And btw, Marvel didnt invent Hulk nor wolverines, they signed the artist doing them.
MArvel are the Microsoft of Comics...
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Loved : Wish, DnL, Vanguards, Tabula Risa, Mourning
Hated : EQ, UO, AC, DaoC
lol
In my mind, that means he deosn't own it.
I think it has been proven that he owns the right to Ents (treants) though...
Anyway, this is really beisde th point of this thread...
I think Marvel should protect its IP. That is the bottom line. If some lawyer has told them that allowing the game to continue using its IP likenesses could hurt its future ownership IP, then they should do something about it.
Some of us may sit here and say, what hell, cheap bastards, greddy bastards, why not let someone make a character that look slike the Hulk.
Then if you were to read that Marvel has now lost the rights to the Hulk Character because of it, then everyone will say that they should have protected it when they had the chance.
This exact same thing happend to FASA years back (or whoever bought them, I don't rmember). But, anyway, they allowed some companies to use th elikeness of the MadCat Mech, then they tried to stop another company from using it, and they coudln't because they didn't protect it previously. FASA ended up losing the rights to that shape of Mech.
Anyway, same sort of thing. If you don't try to protect it in one sintance than you won't be allowed to protect it in another instance.
/agree Tasky22, ecept on treants, that is not a Tolkien original either. Tolkien's work represents a compilation of various myths upon which he expanded upon. The conception of his work has changed over the years. Just look at Tolkien's drawings of elves, dwarves, hobbits, etc..., and compare them to what we see in the movies or current artwork that is commissioned by his estate. The fact that Marvel did not create these characters once again has no bearing. The fact that they own the rights to use these characters does. The fact that Michael Jackson owns the rights to some songs originally performed and owned by the beatles, doesnt change the fact that he has the right to protect his investment in those songs.
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Ok first when I say something I belive in what I say, I really coulndt care less if Marvel go bankrupt because of the copyrights, but from all the movie they have done, im sure they are swimming in money and wil be for a long time, they dont need the money from NCSoft. They really are the Microsoft of Comics books.
Does DC comics sue NCSoft ? they would have the exact same argument then Marvel
And again about my comparison to LOTR :
I can create a tall, long blond haired elf and name him Legolas in many games (ive seen some in FFXI, Lineage 2, and other), LOTR (not Tolkien, Peter Jackson or who ever gave this look to Legolas) are not suing them.
Anyway go on encouraging big company to sue smaller one... when capitalism, greed and monopoly will be even more powerfull you'll have only yourself to blame for your lack of judgment and the fact you actually encouraged this.
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Loved : Wish, DnL, Vanguards, Tabula Risa, Mourning
Hated : EQ, UO, AC, DaoC
lol
I can create a tall, long blond haired elf and name him Legolas in many games (ive seen some in FFXI, Lineage 2, and other), LOTR (not Tolkien, Peter Jackson or who ever gave this look to Legolas) are not suing them.
Now if the game used the art (or a very close resemblance) of Tolkien, in reference to Legolas (assuming it is copyrighted), and then provided the player with the "powers" and "abilities" of Legolas, and placed the character in a world that is very similar to the world that Tolkien had created; then we would be on the same page as the CoH and Marvel dispute. Unfortunately tho, Tolkien's work is based off myths and stories that existed long before him, and therefore would be hard to patent. The Hulk and/or Wolverine on the other hand are more original in their conception and design.
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Since Moses received 10 commandments from Mount Sinai, this gotta be the most ridiculous "law" suit ever perpetrated by wastable mortals (I mean us including Stan Lee).
Hope that Marvel can carry all that intellectually licenced avatars for their after-life and decorate their tombstone with these toys which might or might not be real.
Almost embarrassing.
When napster got sued and lost, it was because people were
exchanging exact copies of copywrited material. This is not the
case with City of Heroes. The musical/napster equivalent would be
opening a business that provides someone with instruments and music
lessons and then allows them to use your server to put songs they
record on the internet. Now if some people used this to copy
copywritten songs, that would be shady practice but, if anyone could
be sued it would be the people that were copying the music. That
being said I think that steps should be taken by the makers of CoH
to try to prevent these actions. Some steps they have taken and
others they have not. In the user agreement it states (paraphrase)
that you are not allowed to create likenesses of copywritten
characters, and if discovered these chars can be deleted and the
player may be banned. This is an example of a step they have taken.
An example of a step that they could have taken (in my opinion),
but did not, is to not include a claws power set in the game that
can only look like wolverine's claws. If they had different options
for the claws it would have been okay to put in some like wolvie's,
after all the rest of the costume isn't necessarily dictated to look
like his (and he has several). But since wolverine's claws are quite
unique and destinctive (as far as I know), it seems suspicious that
those are the only available ones in the game. If you truly wanted
to avoid characters that looked like marvel comics characters why
wouldn't you give a much more generic look like pointed fingers or
feline/canine type paws instead of hands. Or for that matter why
not be completely original and come up with something like a single
large jagged blade that extends out of the character's palm (if
there is a comic character that has somethig like this at least it
is not be an _extremely_ well-known one).
No offense, but allowing the creation of a big-green hulkish creature is shady at best. As is the near Wolverine clone that is creatable. This is not just a random thing that slipped through, and likely was implemented to directly cater to players wanting to be like these trademarked heroes.
However, I think its pretty hard to sue over "sorta like" and I doubt it will really get anywhere.
But as the article eludes to at the end, this is a semi-smart move for Marvel, if they do plan to release a superhero game in the near future, which is not really a longshot. If they win, they can get pickier and pickier with precedent. (Like this city looks like metropolis!). If they lose... oh well, NCsoft is out cash, and Marvel's name is out there.
So its sorta win-win.
O and BTW I'm on NCSoft's side. I never liked CoH or comic books.
After some thinking...
I almost wish that Whitewolf would sue Marvel about the Blade thing to teach Marvel some common sense.
Whitewolf have prolly more grounds against Blade and Marvel then Marvel have against CoH!
- "Solo is, will always be, the main market. A MMORPG that succeed with little or no solo appeal is doing great considering they are ignoring the main player base.''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I was on MarvelComics.com website and found some email addresses and snailmail addresses in there that were referenced in regards to other law suits. Please contact these people and tell them they are alienating their client base!!! Power to the real heroes.
Allen Lipson
President and Chief Executive Officer
Marvel Enterprises, Inc.
10 East 40th Street
New York, NY 10016
Licensing
Paul Gitter
Phone: 212-576-4026
pgitter@marvel.com
Litigation
Matt Finick
Marvel Enterprises
212.576.4035
mfinick@marvel.com
http://www.marvelcomics.com/company/feedback.htm
I'm surprised to see so many people on Marvel's side. Personally I hope they lose. I think this would be terrible for gaming if they were to win. I could understand if it was NCSoft that made a copy of a Marvel character but all the game does is provide a flexible character creation engine. If Marvel wins you can forget a similar character creation engine in ANY game, not just the super hero genre.
Policing their own game for copyright infringements is impossible. Marvel alone has 4700 characters many with multiple costumes/looks (even the Hulk has changed from being green to gray and is not only in ripped purple pants). And what about DC, Dark Horse, Image, tons of Indy comics....
IMHO, COH should be treated like a web hosting company. Customers can upload their data (html pages for a web host, character data for COH), and NCSoft provides the environment to make that data usefull (apache, internet connection, for a web host, game engine, internet connection for COH). I don't think the hosting company or NCSoft should be policing or be held accountable for it's customer's alleged copyright infringements.
aboveGame, the Gamer's Blog
No vast majority is on NC's side.
This is common sense issue. The case is ludicrous at its low. If anyone is trying to spell words otherwise, it's flimsy attempt to make mockery of the Law.
Marvel can go f*k themselves. Napster my assss......
Well.. some points to ponder...
1) NCSoft did, in fact, know that their software could be used to create duplicates of existing heroes. The proof is on their own boards.
2) The EULA might protect them to some extent... but because NCSoft knew about it and did nothing, I doubt that the EULA would protect NCSoft.
3) NCSoft owns the characters, NOT the players, so that alone makes them liable.
4) The lawsuit is over look alikes, NOT names. Hence, this is about Trademarks and not copyrights.
5) Copyrights might last only 30 years but they can be renewed up to 5 times. I am not sure if successive copyrights are for an additional 30 years or a lesser amount of time. The same is true of Tardemarks.
6) Not pursuing a violation can cost you ownership of your IP. The most famous case in this is the term Xeroxing to mean copying. Xerox tried to stop it after that term had been in use for some time. Now the word "Xerox" can be used as a verb freely and the Xerox Corp can't do anything about it.
7) Marvel is looking at starting a Superhero MMORG of their own. It is entirely possible that Marvel is doing this to gain a share, if not all, of NCSoft.
8) Other comic producers are probably waiting to see how Marvel fairs in the courts. If Marvel wins, they may very well file their own lawsuits.
As for my opinion, I personally hope that NCSoft wins but to be honest I think Marvel will win if it goes to court (which I doubt). I think this is just a way for Marvel to force NCSoft to pay them royalties. I don't think that the players could be sued because they don't own the characters, NCSoft does.
Boycott? Rofl.. that's a good one. I read where MANY folk said they were going to boycott Marvel and buy DC. Well, guess what? Marvel owns DC folks. Don't believe it? Open up a DC comicbook and read the fine print. Marvel owns many things, not just comicbooks. Most large corps diversify their holdings. Boycotts only work against small and some medium size companies. Large corps like Marvel are immune to boycotts.
It will be very interesting to see how this one turns out.
So many people on these boards are completely ignorant of what companies own what. White Wolf owns Blade?
Unless they bought the rights, before the film came out White Wolf wasn't makin' comics, much less Rise of The Midnight Sons, where Blade came from.
Anyway, onto the point. Marvel & DC are dinosaurs and all that is left for those corp giants is to come down on the ingenuitive. You can't sue NCSoft for a likeness if they have a disclaimer such as 'any resemblance to licensed likenesses owned by other companies such as Marvel, Image, DC, etc. are not intended as an infringement against those rights, blah blah blah, purely coincidental.'
I am certain the lawsuit will be considered frivolous in court and it will practically be an open and shut case. I am also certain this will be due to the possibility that NCSoft has likely been prepared for such a lawsuit.
As for Marvel & DC? I had met a former Marvel artist, Bill Willingham, once. He told me why he didn't work for them anymore. All I gotta say is, I lost any dwindling respect for Marvel/DC back then. Then Hulk and Spiderman movies are released & it's kiddie commerical hell
. Disney used to be this way, and in many ways still is. I never even went to see Spiderman 2 and Hulk was so bad I immediately lose respect for people that liked it. I mean, it was horrible. 
They may have 4700+ characters up their sleeves, but using this as a corporate weapon is as ridiculous as suing for the use of incredibly generic character models, because there are only so many things you can do with hero creations. NCSoft should not be liable for its players' created characters. Maybe they could ban certain likeness combinations. Say, you can't resemble the Hulk or Wolverine, but you can be a green little guy with Wolverine hand razors. However, it is important to consider, this is City of HEROES. Meaning the heroes would have to be based on previous Marvel & DC superheroes to an extent. It is unfair of Marvel to take advantage because some smaller company (and yes, NCSoft IS a small company) thought about and acted on a good idea before they did. 
I believe Marvel wants to open its own MMORPG just like CoH. Now technically, CoH could trademark a superhero-based game, yes? It would be unfair to any number of comic book companies to rob them of the right to make an MMO based on their own characters, wouldn't it? It's unethical. Marvel has a conflict of interest here that should be more closely examined. The stories in some of their comics were good, but essentially, the art has mostly sucked and looked like 1950's Flash Gordon regurge anyway and I KNOW they didn't make him up. So I pledge now to never purchase anything from DC or Marvel or its partners (Macfarlane Toys, Games, etc.) as a result of this frivolous and petty lawsuit.
I encourage anyone with half a brain to do likewise.
Define me by my personality, not my nationality or the politics related to any nation I may live in.
"...the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem and hardly ever what we dream."