To put it simply; it's not a game design flaw, it's a player mentality flaw. What a Mmorpg truly is, is not for your play style game desire. What you need is console games online
No its a game design flaw. Players shouldn't feel the need to level up their skills with macroing.
Players should cheat in video games? This is not a design flaw, this is a player flaw.
I am having a great time playing Darkfall and I do not macro. Those that do and complain about the "grind" simply have flawed ethics.
I blame the game for "allowing" the macroing in the first place. It's the game that's allowing the so-called "flawed ethics".
You obviously do not understand the meaning of the word ethics.
Robertb is right. If there were no police in RL, people with ethics wouldn't kill, steal, and run amok. Many people would though.
That is the situation in DF, those that choose to cheat do so at will presumably.
Yet, in real life, there are things like laws, police, and prisons, and still there are those that kill, steal, and run amok. At least society has made an effort to curtain such types of bad behavior.
That's what's missing in DF. The systems they have do a poor job of "policing" or regulating the game. Perhaps they were hoping that only ethical people would play the game.
Unfortunately, hope is not a plan. In a competitive game such as this, many players are going to do anything they can to gain every possible advantage. That's exactly what we've seen so far, and it does impact the other players adversely, in the same way that a lawless society would affect ethical people adversely.
Yet, in real life, there are things like laws, police, and prisons, and still there are those that kill, steal, and run amok. At least society has made an effort to curtain such types of bad behavior.
That's what's missing in DF. The systems they have do a poor job of "policing" or regulating the game. Perhaps they were hoping that only ethical people would play the game.
Unfortunately, hope is not a plan. In a competitive game such as this, many players are going to do anything they can to gain every possible advantage. That's exactly what we've seen so far, and it does impact the other players adversely, in the same way that a lawless society would affect ethical people adversely.
Indeed, but I have yet to play an online game where cheating does not seem to be a viable playstyle for many players.
Perhaps it is simply a reflection of the community of online gamers, in general, fed by annonimity and immaturity.
The most ridiculous part about this entire issue is that most of these people will swear on their mother that they are not, in fact, cheating.
Indeed, but I have yet to play an online game where cheating does not seem to be a viable playstyle for many players. Perhaps it is simply a reflection of the community of online gamers, in general, fed by annonimity and immaturity. The most ridiculous part about this entire issue is that most of these people will swear on their mother that they are not, in fact, cheating. Sad, really...
Yes, sometimes to a greater extent sometimes to a lesser extent. Thing is games that focus on player conflict should realy strive to make it to a lesser extent. That should be central to there whole design philosophy.
Yet, in real life, there are things like laws, police, and prisons, and still there are those that kill, steal, and run amok. At least society has made an effort to curtain such types of bad behavior.
That's what's missing in DF. The systems they have do a poor job of "policing" or regulating the game. Perhaps they were hoping that only ethical people would play the game.
Unfortunately, hope is not a plan. In a competitive game such as this, many players are going to do anything they can to gain every possible advantage. That's exactly what we've seen so far, and it does impact the other players adversely, in the same way that a lawless society would affect ethical people adversely.
Indeed, but I have yet to play an online game where cheating does not seem to be a viable playstyle for many players.
Perhaps it is simply a reflection of the community of online gamers, in general, fed by annonimity and immaturity.
The most ridiculous part about this entire issue is that most of these people will swear on their mother that they are not, in fact, cheating.
Sad, really...
While there are cheaters and hackers in every game I've played, the difference lies in how much such cheating can affect other players or the game world.
In that regard, with the focus on PvP and "full loot", players in a game like Darkfall are generally going to be much more affected by the unscrupulous behavior of others. In fact, these selling points of DF are generally more likely to attract such types of miscreants (DF has a pretty lousy community so far).
This is why a game like DF needed to be more mindful of such things while developing the game than they were, and must make greater strides in eliminating it to the best of their ability. Of course, they'll never get rid of all of it, but if they embrace that type of thinking - "we'll never get them all, so why try?" - the playerbase will lose confidence in AV's ability to provide a level playing field. For a competitive game, that's a killer.
We can denounce the ethics of the cheater all day long. It's how the cheaters affect the players that follow the rules that is the issue.
Ok, listen, the problem with this game isn't how long a skill takes to level. The problem is the game is designed so poorly that in order to remain competitive in PvP or whatever you have to macro up your skills. Whether it be attended/unattended isn't the point, that's all the same to me anyways.
I can guarantee you that if they took the time to construct simple solutions against macroing (i.e. making skills go up on hit for magic) this game would be 1000x better because people would just level their skills normally and not feel like they have to macro to keep up. They would just PLAY THE GAME. What a concept.
As far as there not being any depth beyond the basic combat mechanics. i.e. lack of melee skills, whatever, well, that's just something people will have to deal with because that isn't changing anytime soon if at all.
p.s. harvesting/crafting as a "profession" is useless because people that macro everything will be better than you no matter how much time you invest while trying to play "legit". Unfortunately they never took the time to make the game a) fun to play so you wouldn't feel the need to macro everything, because you would be to busy doing it. and b) designed in such a way where it is basically impossible to macro up your skills.
All in all, the game is useless and combined with all of the business/customer service/billing side issues I wouldn't recommend this game for anyone. It should be F2P. Wait for something better to come along.
I lost 3 sets of armour in a siege today (we won), clan members lose multiple sets also, our enemy all died once or more and lost everything they had, and the hamlet they put many hours into building.
Tomorrow I will have to grind to replace my armour, pots, weapons.
Guess how long it takes me to grind?
About 5 mining cycles (mine 5 times until I lose stamina), 150 ore. Buy 24 leather, bang scale set.
repeatable quests=nice gold per hour.
Sell stuff I get like sulfur etc in human npc towns, more cash.
Ye the grind is annoying, but you think EVE ships just buy themselves? Unless you have a corp/alliance who reimburse.
Ok, listen, the problem with this game isn't how long a skill takes to level. The problem is the game is designed so poorly that in order to remain competitive in PvP or whatever you have to macro up your skills. Whether it be attended/unattended isn't the point, that's all the same to me anyways. I can guarantee you that if they took the time to construct simple solutions against macroing (i.e. making skills go up on hit for magic) this game would be 1000x better because people would just level their skills normally and not feel like they have to macro to keep up. They would just PLAY THE GAME. What a concept. As far as there not being any depth beyond the basic combat mechanics. i.e. lack of melee skills, whatever, well, that's just something people will have to deal with because that isn't changing anytime soon if at all. p.s. harvesting/crafting as a "profession" is useless because people that macro everything will be better than you no matter how much time you invest while trying to play "legit". Unfortunately they never took the time to make the game a) fun to play so you wouldn't feel the need to macro everything, because you would be to busy doing it. and b) designed in such a way where it is basically impossible to macro up your skills. All in all, the game is useless and combined with all of the business/customer service/billing side issues I wouldn't recommend this game for anyone. It should be F2P. Wait for something better to come along.
In DF you can be a total noob, jump in, grab a set of scale and a mount, a staff and a bow and help out in sieges etc no prob.
In games like WoW until you hit 60 (now 80), get good gear etc you mean fuck all.
Hey. Yes it means a grind. I lost 3 sets of armour in a siege today (we won), clan members lose multiple sets also, our enemy all died once or more and lost everything they had, and the hamlet they put many hours into building. Tomorrow I will have to grind to replace my armour, pots, weapons. Guess how long it takes me to grind? About 5 mining cycles (mine 5 times until I lose stamina), 150 ore. Buy 24 leather, bang scale set. repeatable quests=nice gold per hour. Sell stuff I get like sulfur etc in human npc towns, more cash. Ye the grind is annoying, but you think EVE ships just buy themselves? Unless you have a corp/alliance who reimburse.
Too bad the armor in that game is useless. Almost everyone on every video Ive seen run around naked and still win most the fights. It's not player skill either because all they do is run up to someone and chase them while spamming left click. The only way I see this possible is they macrod up their skills lol.
completely serious: just macro, its frowned upon but by NO MEANS illegal. It'll save you a lot of hassle so that you can start to play the real game. With macroing factored in, you progress pretty damn fast in DF.
Do you actually mean "illegal"? Illegal means prohibited by law not by EULA. As for 'forwned upon' AV seem to be unclear on macroing I thought they where going to take a 'hard line'. Its a sad reflection of there game that people macro (actually need to macro) rather than play.
Do you actually mean "illegal"? Illegal means prohibited by law not by EULA. As for 'forwned upon' AV seem to be unclear on macroing I thought they where going to take a 'hard line'. Its a sad reflection of there game that people macro (actually need to macro) rather than play.
I do not macro, nor do I need to macro.
People that do so miss the point. There is no end-game.
Good for you! Really. The problem is you can't realy adjust the game balance for both the 'honest' players and those that *cough* get help. Thats bad for a competative game. Of course what they should do is clamp down hard (technically and through policing) on macroing and balance around straight play.
Good for you! Really. The problem is you can't realy adjust the game balance for both the 'honest' players and those that *cough* get help. Thats bad for a competative game. Of course what they should do is clamp down hard (technically and through policing) on macroing and balance around straight play.
Yes, that would be nice.
It is just sad that many people seem to have such a badly developed sense of ethics.
I actually like the way Darkfall's skill system works, when you actually just play the game.
The problem with grinding and macroing is easy to understand: Most people is essentially stupid, really. They dont care about having fun, they care about being the best, being competitive. Once they reach max level on some skills they will realize they dont like the game anymore and will leave the game saying: "This sucks, its too much grinding". No, stupid kid, you made the game a grind with your way to play it.
In my opinion there is no solution to the grinding in darkfall, because we need a solution to stupidity.
Edit: A well, the fact that you raise your skills raises when you use them instead of when you land/hit with them helps a lot to this kind of behaviour. But I bet Darkfall devs made it this way knowing what they were doing.
Is it actually concidered cheating? The fact that so many concider it 'OK' is a problem in itself. Have AV softened there stance? Thier position is somehat opaque.
Is it actually concidered cheating? The fact that so many concider it 'OK' is a problem in itself. Have AV softened there stance? Thier position is somehat opaque.
According to Aventurine, the only time they'll do something about macroing is if you are doing it in a safe zone ( i.e. next to city guard towers ) where you can't be killed.
"...World of Lamecraft..." wow you made a funny. Now if I were a gambling man, I would bet you're one of those who has never seen meaningful end game content...
Yes, that would be nice. It is just sad that many people seem to have such a badly developed sense of ethics. I actually like the way Darkfall's skill system works, when you actually just play the game.
"...World of Lamecraft..." wow you made a funny. Now if I were a gambling man, I would bet you're one of those who has never seen meaningful end game content...
I had about twelve characters over 5 servers, mainly on Kel-thuzad. I played when World of Warcraft first came out, quit for a while and then played for another year until the Burning Crusade came out. I played through all of the "end-game" content before the Burning Crusade, including the Starship Troopers bugs.
My final moment in World of Warcraft was leveling up the Rogue I had been playing before I quit the first time (she was level 42 when I quit, and a total bad ass [at level 52 she was dropping 60's with ease in Alterac Valley]). I had gotten her to level 53 and was in one of my favorite areas the Un'Goro crater... I also had a level 19 Rogue that I used for the Battlegrounds with her own special guild called "The Bikini Bandits." I traded favors with a friend, and together we made Alaeluna and Threnody (the level 19 Rogues) awesome beyond all comparison. Back on track, in the Un-Goro crater, with my level 53 Rogue, thinking of my level 60s and how all of the work I had been doing for them was basically nullified with the new content... I said to myself... If I have to grind out ONE more level.. I quit.... and I did, and I did.
Fancy "end game" content does not justify a grind. There should be "throughout game" content.
At least in WoW you needed to buy a bot to grind. With DF one left click macro does all.
As you say the journey should be every bit as fund as the destination. WoW the journey was fun people botted further characters or for gold selling purposes. With DF macroing is there from the start.
Do you really not macro? Good for you if thats the case. I bet people in your clan do, how else do you fund cities?
I see a lot of macroers, all the time.
Most cities were initially funded by exploits that a number of beta testers knew about and used as soon as the game went live.
All this is true.
That said, I do not macro and simply play the game. I am having the best time I have ever had in any MMO.
If AV ever decides to add something like game guard, or such, to this game, it will, of course, only make it better. Perhaps some of those that need to cheat to play will leave, but that is also a good thng, imo.
Comments
No its a game design flaw. Players shouldn't feel the need to level up their skills with macroing.
Players should cheat in video games? This is not a design flaw, this is a player flaw.
I am having a great time playing Darkfall and I do not macro. Those that do and complain about the "grind" simply have flawed ethics.
I blame the game for "allowing" the macroing in the first place. It's the game that's allowing the so-called "flawed ethics".
You obviously do not understand the meaning of the word ethics.
Robertb is right. If there were no police in RL, people with ethics wouldn't kill, steal, and run amok. Many people would though.
That is the situation in DF, those that choose to cheat do so at will presumably.
Yet, in real life, there are things like laws, police, and prisons, and still there are those that kill, steal, and run amok. At least society has made an effort to curtain such types of bad behavior.
That's what's missing in DF. The systems they have do a poor job of "policing" or regulating the game. Perhaps they were hoping that only ethical people would play the game.
Unfortunately, hope is not a plan. In a competitive game such as this, many players are going to do anything they can to gain every possible advantage. That's exactly what we've seen so far, and it does impact the other players adversely, in the same way that a lawless society would affect ethical people adversely.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Yet, in real life, there are things like laws, police, and prisons, and still there are those that kill, steal, and run amok. At least society has made an effort to curtain such types of bad behavior.
That's what's missing in DF. The systems they have do a poor job of "policing" or regulating the game. Perhaps they were hoping that only ethical people would play the game.
Unfortunately, hope is not a plan. In a competitive game such as this, many players are going to do anything they can to gain every possible advantage. That's exactly what we've seen so far, and it does impact the other players adversely, in the same way that a lawless society would affect ethical people adversely.
Indeed, but I have yet to play an online game where cheating does not seem to be a viable playstyle for many players.
Perhaps it is simply a reflection of the community of online gamers, in general, fed by annonimity and immaturity.
The most ridiculous part about this entire issue is that most of these people will swear on their mother that they are not, in fact, cheating.
Sad, really...
Yes, sometimes to a greater extent sometimes to a lesser extent. Thing is games that focus on player conflict should realy strive to make it to a lesser extent. That should be central to there whole design philosophy.
Yet, in real life, there are things like laws, police, and prisons, and still there are those that kill, steal, and run amok. At least society has made an effort to curtain such types of bad behavior.
That's what's missing in DF. The systems they have do a poor job of "policing" or regulating the game. Perhaps they were hoping that only ethical people would play the game.
Unfortunately, hope is not a plan. In a competitive game such as this, many players are going to do anything they can to gain every possible advantage. That's exactly what we've seen so far, and it does impact the other players adversely, in the same way that a lawless society would affect ethical people adversely.
Indeed, but I have yet to play an online game where cheating does not seem to be a viable playstyle for many players.
Perhaps it is simply a reflection of the community of online gamers, in general, fed by annonimity and immaturity.
The most ridiculous part about this entire issue is that most of these people will swear on their mother that they are not, in fact, cheating.
Sad, really...
While there are cheaters and hackers in every game I've played, the difference lies in how much such cheating can affect other players or the game world.
In that regard, with the focus on PvP and "full loot", players in a game like Darkfall are generally going to be much more affected by the unscrupulous behavior of others. In fact, these selling points of DF are generally more likely to attract such types of miscreants (DF has a pretty lousy community so far).
This is why a game like DF needed to be more mindful of such things while developing the game than they were, and must make greater strides in eliminating it to the best of their ability. Of course, they'll never get rid of all of it, but if they embrace that type of thinking - "we'll never get them all, so why try?" - the playerbase will lose confidence in AV's ability to provide a level playing field. For a competitive game, that's a killer.
We can denounce the ethics of the cheater all day long. It's how the cheaters affect the players that follow the rules that is the issue.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Ok, listen, the problem with this game isn't how long a skill takes to level. The problem is the game is designed so poorly that in order to remain competitive in PvP or whatever you have to macro up your skills. Whether it be attended/unattended isn't the point, that's all the same to me anyways.
I can guarantee you that if they took the time to construct simple solutions against macroing (i.e. making skills go up on hit for magic) this game would be 1000x better because people would just level their skills normally and not feel like they have to macro to keep up. They would just PLAY THE GAME. What a concept.
As far as there not being any depth beyond the basic combat mechanics. i.e. lack of melee skills, whatever, well, that's just something people will have to deal with because that isn't changing anytime soon if at all.
p.s. harvesting/crafting as a "profession" is useless because people that macro everything will be better than you no matter how much time you invest while trying to play "legit". Unfortunately they never took the time to make the game a) fun to play so you wouldn't feel the need to macro everything, because you would be to busy doing it. and b) designed in such a way where it is basically impossible to macro up your skills.
All in all, the game is useless and combined with all of the business/customer service/billing side issues I wouldn't recommend this game for anyone. It should be F2P. Wait for something better to come along.
Hey. Yes it means a grind.
I lost 3 sets of armour in a siege today (we won), clan members lose multiple sets also, our enemy all died once or more and lost everything they had, and the hamlet they put many hours into building.
Tomorrow I will have to grind to replace my armour, pots, weapons.
Guess how long it takes me to grind?
About 5 mining cycles (mine 5 times until I lose stamina), 150 ore. Buy 24 leather, bang scale set.
repeatable quests=nice gold per hour.
Sell stuff I get like sulfur etc in human npc towns, more cash.
Ye the grind is annoying, but you think EVE ships just buy themselves? Unless you have a corp/alliance who reimburse.
In DF you can be a total noob, jump in, grab a set of scale and a mount, a staff and a bow and help out in sieges etc no prob.
In games like WoW until you hit 60 (now 80), get good gear etc you mean fuck all.
Do't grind macro, seems obvious.
Or simply the developers make it so that you CAN'T do so.
You know like how all the beta testers WARNED them about it before they launched.
But I guess listening to your beta testers is too carebear.
Am I right?
Too bad the armor in that game is useless. Almost everyone on every video Ive seen run around naked and still win most the fights. It's not player skill either because all they do is run up to someone and chase them while spamming left click. The only way I see this possible is they macrod up their skills lol.
completely serious: just macro, its frowned upon but by NO MEANS illegal. It'll save you a lot of hassle so that you can start to play the real game. With macroing factored in, you progress pretty damn fast in DF.
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
Do you actually mean "illegal"? Illegal means prohibited by law not by EULA. As for 'forwned upon' AV seem to be unclear on macroing I thought they where going to take a 'hard line'. Its a sad reflection of there game that people macro (actually need to macro) rather than play.
I do not macro, nor do I need to macro.
People that do so miss the point. There is no end-game.
Good for you! Really. The problem is you can't realy adjust the game balance for both the 'honest' players and those that *cough* get help. Thats bad for a competative game. Of course what they should do is clamp down hard (technically and through policing) on macroing and balance around straight play.
Yes, that would be nice.
It is just sad that many people seem to have such a badly developed sense of ethics.
I actually like the way Darkfall's skill system works, when you actually just play the game.
...
The problem with grinding and macroing is easy to understand: Most people is essentially stupid, really. They dont care about having fun, they care about being the best, being competitive. Once they reach max level on some skills they will realize they dont like the game anymore and will leave the game saying: "This sucks, its too much grinding". No, stupid kid, you made the game a grind with your way to play it.
In my opinion there is no solution to the grinding in darkfall, because we need a solution to stupidity.
Edit: A well, the fact that you raise your skills raises when you use them instead of when you land/hit with them helps a lot to this kind of behaviour. But I bet Darkfall devs made it this way knowing what they were doing.
Is it actually concidered cheating? The fact that so many concider it 'OK' is a problem in itself. Have AV softened there stance? Thier position is somehat opaque.
According to Aventurine, the only time they'll do something about macroing is if you are doing it in a safe zone ( i.e. next to city guard towers ) where you can't be killed.
"...World of Lamecraft..." wow you made a funny. Now if I were a gambling man, I would bet you're one of those who has never seen meaningful end game content...
Such is the nature of PvP progression games.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
I had about twelve characters over 5 servers, mainly on Kel-thuzad. I played when World of Warcraft first came out, quit for a while and then played for another year until the Burning Crusade came out. I played through all of the "end-game" content before the Burning Crusade, including the Starship Troopers bugs.
My final moment in World of Warcraft was leveling up the Rogue I had been playing before I quit the first time (she was level 42 when I quit, and a total bad ass [at level 52 she was dropping 60's with ease in Alterac Valley]). I had gotten her to level 53 and was in one of my favorite areas the Un'Goro crater... I also had a level 19 Rogue that I used for the Battlegrounds with her own special guild called "The Bikini Bandits." I traded favors with a friend, and together we made Alaeluna and Threnody (the level 19 Rogues) awesome beyond all comparison. Back on track, in the Un-Goro crater, with my level 53 Rogue, thinking of my level 60s and how all of the work I had been doing for them was basically nullified with the new content... I said to myself... If I have to grind out ONE more level.. I quit.... and I did, and I did.
Fancy "end game" content does not justify a grind. There should be "throughout game" content.
H A D O K E N !
At least in WoW you needed to buy a bot to grind. With DF one left click macro does all.
As you say the journey should be every bit as fund as the destination. WoW the journey was fun people botted further characters or for gold selling purposes. With DF macroing is there from the start.
Macroing does not help anyone. Its just for the lazy. If some people dont want to play the game, not my problem.
Do you really not macro? Good for you if thats the case. I bet people in your clan do, how else do you fund cities?
I see a lot of macroers, all the time.
Most cities were initially funded by exploits that a number of beta testers knew about and used as soon as the game went live.
All this is true.
That said, I do not macro and simply play the game. I am having the best time I have ever had in any MMO.
If AV ever decides to add something like game guard, or such, to this game, it will, of course, only make it better. Perhaps some of those that need to cheat to play will leave, but that is also a good thng, imo.