Originally posted by Hagonbok Yes, you know lots about me alright, and your idea of people "reasoning" with me is that they tell me what I should think and believe, and for some reason I should just accept that they're right and I'm wrong. Just what world do you live in anyway? You do know that just because you type something into a post it doesn't mean you're right....right? Or do you? Actually, come to think of it, I get the feeling that you don't. I've rebutted the "points" made, you just can't seem to accept that someone is doing that. In fact, it seems you're taking someone doing that as a personal affront and launching into personal attacks over it.
Get over it. I don't think ship interiors are very important at all. Big hairy deal. I'm not making the game. Why are you so worried about what I think? If you want to debate it, then fine, that's part of posting on a message forum like this. Leave your personal crap in the playground though ok?. Thanks.
God, Hagon your so full of it.
People like my first post to you, were trying to explain that there is such a thing as a disagreement and you don't need to be an arse. They also explained to you that you repeatedly twisted peoples words like you did before that started this whole argument. This latest crap by you actually hasn't even been on player crews it has been about the polling and you trying to twist my words again.
Which makes me wonder what points did you rebut? You suggested I was saying something I wasn't and you responded the first time by just reasserting what you'd already suggested. Than I repeated myself again and you mentioned a typo. Now we are completely off track because you keep trying to save face, just give up mate. Your latest episode has no more substance than anything you ever have to say, you don't "rebut", hell you don't even acknowledge.
Man you really are into RP. You've created a whole fantasy just like that. Awesome.
Originally posted by Hagonbok Yes, you know lots about me alright, and your idea of people "reasoning" with me is that they tell me what I should think and believe, and for some reason I should just accept that they're right and I'm wrong. Just what world do you live in anyway? You do know that just because you type something into a post it doesn't mean you're right....right? Or do you? Actually, come to think of it, I get the feeling that you don't. I've rebutted the "points" made, you just can't seem to accept that someone is doing that. In fact, it seems you're taking someone doing that as a personal affront and launching into personal attacks over it.
Get over it. I don't think ship interiors are very important at all. Big hairy deal. I'm not making the game. Why are you so worried about what I think? If you want to debate it, then fine, that's part of posting on a message forum like this. Leave your personal crap in the playground though ok?. Thanks.
God, Hagon your so full of it.
People like my first post to you, were trying to explain that there is such a thing as a disagreement and you don't need to be an arse. They also explained to you that you repeatedly twisted peoples words like you did before that started this whole argument. This latest crap by you actually hasn't even been on player crews it has been about the polling and you trying to twist my words again.
Which makes me wonder what points did you rebut? You suggested I was saying something I wasn't and you responded the first time by just reasserting what you'd already suggested. Than I repeated myself again and you mentioned a typo. Now we are completely off track because you keep trying to save face, just give up mate. Your latest episode has no more substance than anything you ever have to say, you don't "rebut", hell you don't even acknowledge.
Man you really are into RP. You've created a whole fantasy just like that. Awesome.
Well its there for all to see that it ain't no fantasy mate. I guess this last post of yours is what you'd call a "rebuttal". Just calling what I wrote fantasy despite the fact the older post are there, is well, pathetic.
Just calling what I wrote fantasy despite the fact the older post are there, is well, pathetic.
I'd say what's pathetic is how you've hounded me for all these posts with personal attack after personal attack simply because I take an opposing viewpoint on this particular issue. It's almost like you have a crush on me or something. I'm flattered, but......
Just calling what I wrote fantasy despite the fact the older post are there, is well, pathetic.
I'd say what's pathetic is how you've hounded me for all these posts with personal attack after personal attack simply because I take an opposing viewpoint on this particular issue. It's almost like you have a crush on me or something. I'm flattered, but......
Again I didn't disagree with you. Infact I didn't start this, you tried twisting my words and I have had enough. Its not an opposing viewpoint here. We both agree the poll doesn't mean that the people who want interiors and player crews aren't a niche. I just said the forums don't indicate it is a niche, however I made it clear of my doubts and you ignored it and persisted in trying to twist facts and my words. Just like you do now, " because I take an opposing viewpoint on this particular issue." Its nothing to do with you taking an opposing viewpoint infact its not even oppossing and I've already made that clear.
Yes, conveniently try and dodge the fact that you waded into the thread being negative about the game you obviously know very little about (albeit in a totally transparent slightly passive-aggressive manner), saying you have little interest because of no interiors.
Maintaining this attitude even after you were informed by someone who's , you know, actually taken the time to find out the facts about the game that there will be interiors in STO. Tons of interiors.
You're no different from the other's trying to drum up negativity so as to ebully Cryptic. You just went about it a bit different is all. Maybe that's why "you've had enough". Enough of someone seeing through your sham so easily I'd surmise.
Yes, conveniently try and dodge the fact that you waded into the thread being negative about the game you obviously know very little about (albeit in a totally transparent slightly passive-aggressive manner), saying you have little interest because of no interiors.
Maintaining this attitude even after you were informed by someone who's , you know, actually taken the time to find out the facts about the game that there will be interiors in STO. Tons of interiors.
You're no different from the other's trying to drum up negativity so as to ebully Cryptic. You just went about it a bit different is all. Maybe that's why "you've had enough". Enough of someone seeing through your sham so easily I'd surmise.
Besides from the last paragraph thats actually sort of true, ofcourse you've put your usual spin on it with colourful words, still trying to save face I suppose. "try and dodge the fact that you waded into the thread being negative" Nope, not once in our recent spout did you even bring it up that I came into this thread with a "negative" attitude, so I had no reason to dodge anything and besides its not something I'd want to "to try and dodge". I'll leave the dodging to you.
"Maintaining this attitude even after you were informed by someone who's , you know, actually taken the time to find out the facts about the game that there will be interiors in STO. Tons of interiors." Thats sort of true too, I don't doubt you'd have learned more about this game but being in a ship interior when its relevant to the story didn't change my point as I mentioned at the time.
Now the last paragraph you wrote is probably part of your perceived "smear campaign on Cryptic" as I remember you putting it in another thread and once again I'll just say having a different opinion even if its negative shouldn't concern you. As for me having enough, I think you knew I meant enough of you.
Now most importantly you say I'm trying to "dodge" when this last spout had nothing to do with my first few post in this thread. This was about the polling in this thread. Once again you've tried to save face by bringing up something so far off track its not relevant. Once again you've disregarding the entire conversation up to this point. Once again you fail to acknowledge any relevant points that were made prior to this let alone rebut any of them and once again you make false allegations about me.
PS I've decided to use your text colouring method, maybe you use it because you yourself need it to notice the important/relevant points.
Yea you make some good points there man, but what are people going to do while traveling across space inside the ship?Duel the engineering officer? LOL I could just imagine people doin that now and then havin some nut in the back brown baggin a kilingon chick. Sorry, I know some people are hyped about interior play, but just imagine, this is the gaming community in a Star Trek game we're talking about here, you guys realize how hard its going to be eitherway just trying to avoid approaching or hailing a ship without people spammin, "Ir Teh CaptaIN JaneWayz! Will U JOin MY FL33T! or WTS MODIFIED HULL PLATING! 40 MILL! PST" gah... makes me have second thoughts about anyone developing a star trek title at all...
Firstly, let me define what type of game classifies as a "MMO". I am an old school MMORPG player, not a game console convert to MMOs, so for me a well designed MMO will be built upon the ability of Players to Roleplay properly...and in the case of a Star Trek MMO, that means that the Players should from Game Release be able to ambulate and interact within a ship, a ship designed from day one to be a vehicle for interaction and gameplay for the Players. Players in a Star Trek MMO should be able to do what the characters in the Star Trek TV and Movies do....Command the ship as a Captain, perform the duties of an Engineering Officer, a Helmsman, a Science Officer, etc. The Crew should be able to pilot the ship through the virtual universe based upon the Star Trek Universe, and should be able to leave the ship to do Away Missions on Planets or Stations. This means to me that a Star Trek MMO should be a MMORPG from day one of the design phase, and should include ship exteriors and space combat capabilities as well as ship interiors.
I realize that some MMO Players now only want combat (pew pew) and consider "RolePlaying" a four letter word. IMHO any MMO Player that feels this way should consider giving up MMO gaming because the Console Gaming Genre will satify them far more than attempting to join the MMORPG Genre and insist that Developers change MMOs into nothing more than Console Games with fancy graphics. If I offend anyone with that statement, rest assured that many present day MMO Players have offended me with their comments that Roleplaying has no place in an MMO. I am where I should be, that is playing an MMORPG...those that don't want to roleplay an MMO are the ones that are lost...they need to go back to Console and Single Player games.
IMHO any attempt to create a Star Trek MMO that is not designed as a MMORPG *and* is designed with not only space combat with exterior ship views but also "sandbox" style ship interiors and multiplayer ship crew features is a mistake...a mistake that will then need fixing via game expansions and patches. A well designed MMORPG should be able to be designed, produced, and released with all features from day one of release. If the Developers desire to create a multiplayer console space combat game built upon the Star Trek IP than fine. They just need to stop calling it an MMO, which is short for MMORPG.
As for Players "dueling the Engineering Officer" there is the Brig for those Players (I am serious, let the "Captain" Player put them in there for a time), and if those Players don't like that, then they get a Ban. Any Fan of Star Trek knows that attempting to duel anyone on board a Starship is grounds for a visit to the Brig. Same for the Players sneaking some "hanky panky" while on duty ingame....either they can meet each other on a Station (in private quarters/private PM) for that or get Banned as well. Same for the Spamming gold farmers and Players acting like idiots selling their stuff in a manner that violates common sense Role Play and Game Immersion.....Ban them. Those types of Players are usually destructive to a true MMO Player community anyways. It is better that a minority of Players that violate the rules of a proper MMO be banned than the Majority of Players learn to hate the game or MMOs in general because the minority is allowed to behave badly and get away with it.
not having ship interiors at the beginning of this game isnt going to ruin it for me. they are going to put those in at some point im sure. also there will be some interior stuff at the beginning anyway. this arguement sounds like it includes a small niche of players anyway. is there an aweful lot of people that want to be an engineer as part of a player crew and just sit there and mash one button? doubtful. who doesnt want to be captain of their own starship?
I don't blame you for not reading the entire thread dedicated to players crews as they have now dragged on forever but those arguements have already been raised and argued. I'm telling you this because I couldn't be bothered argueing it again but so you can look for yourself if you care. As for it being a "small niche" I would think that be the case however the boards here don't suggest its that it is a niche. It doesn't mean its not, just that the boards don't reflect what you think.
So you believe that 38% out of 144 votes in a poll at a site with over a million members actually indicates it's NOT an extremely miniscule niche group?
Okies
By that logic, the game itself would be a dismal failure because only 144 people on a site with over a million members had enough interest to read the forums on it and answer a poll one way or another.
I don't think that the poll is NECCESARLY significant.... because it's obviously self-selective and a small sample size (although I'll point out that most Presidential Election polls use sample sizes in the 500-1000 person range).
However, it is interesting that of the people here who are interested here to actively read these forums and express an interest by answering a simple poll (i.e. the most interested audience for the game)....over half have expressed that not having the feature makes them less interested in the game....and over a third have expressed that it will be a deal breaker for them.
Not conclusive.... but it's better then any actual data (as opposed to conjecture/opinion) provided to oppose the idea...which is currently none.
Except I was on when it went up and most of those votes on the yes side happened within minutes of the poll going up. When these people "mysteriously" showed up out of the blue just to vote in it..... curious that......
Except I was on when it went up and most of those votes on the yes side happened within minutes of the poll going up. When these people "mysteriously" showed up out of the blue just to vote in it..... curious that......
LOL, You think people are actualy going to go through the effort to game this poll? What exactly would be the point of that?
It's not like it's actualy going to be USED to decide anything..... so why bother? Just to make you wrong?
Trust me, if I need to do that I'll just point the Orbital Mind Control Lasers in your direction..... oh you probably have a hat that protects against that don't you?
No I don't think everyone is "gaming" the poll, but some definitely did, and I know for a fact that there's some groups out there that have been carrying on with these efforts to fudge the picture, so to speak, so that a couple of issues appear far more important to most people than they really are. They did it on the STO forums with spamming threads to keep them alive and the one post alts creating multiple threads on the same subject (until Cryptic put a stop to it for the most part), and they've been doing it here too.
No ship interiors is kind of a buy breaker for me. I won't purchase it on release, but will likely wait a few months to see what's coming and going. I'm going to let others rush in, buying the IP and not the game "as it is" first. As I read somewhere (I really need to start writing these down) ... games only get one launch. It either exceeds expectations and pulls more people in, or it doesn't and people turn others away. I'm just nervous about the "Star Trek Online great game ... but NOT Star Trek" reviews.
And eventhough it's taken a long time, EVE is finally putting station interiors and avatars into their game. I can't imagine they'd bother to do that if everyone was JUST interested in flying their ships about ...
And, just for amusements sake, I decided to time an episode of TNG, just to see how much ship time made it into the show. Not including the opening credits I came up with 3min 32 seconds. And perhaps this was a bizarre outlier, but Wesley had nearly three times the amount of screen time as the ship. I decided to count Wesley because somewhere on the official forums, Hagonbak made a joke about Wesley being what Star Trek was about ... Irony perhaps?
Originally posted by whpsh And, just for amusements sake, I decided to time an episode of TNG, just to see how much ship time made it into the show. Not including the opening credits I came up with 3min 32 seconds. And perhaps this was a bizarre outlier, but Wesley had nearly three times the amount of screen time as the ship. I decided to count Wesley because somewhere on the official forums, Hagonbak made a joke about Wesley being what Star Trek was about ... Irony perhaps?
What do you mean by "ship time"? Exterior shots? Random interior shots that showed people walking around and not following central characters?
------------- The less you expect, the more you'll be surprised. Hopefully, pleasantly so.
Originally posted by Salvatoris I think it speaks volumes about the type of game they are making. It's going to be an action MMO, and probably won't have the kind of depth it would take to keep me interested for too long. Unfortunately, I think the same thing will be true for the Star Wars MMO.
I agree, if it were as simple as not having ship interiors it wouldn't have bothered me but theres lots of gameplay options that cannot be realized if you cannot even walk inside your ship and as you said it says alot of the type of game they are making. As for the new Star Wars MMO I didn't expect anything from that but I thought star trek may indeed offer some more depth. It just seems like it'll be dumbed down eve with some quest on planets.
Except players will be walking around ships in episodes where doing so is relevant to the story being told. Please go and learn something about the game. Thanks.
Hag all you do in defend them, can we say major fanboy.. if they took out ships and added bikes you would think it was so great they where thinking out of the box..
but i will still try it, but hope they add it later ..
That was funny.
I have been in this forum for a heartbeat now and hag, I am going to be honest all the LULZ and ROFLCOPTERS mark you as someone who is really immature, you might even have valid points but they are going to be lost on anyone with an IQ over ten. It is typical elitist 14 year old WoW guild speak coming out of your mouth and no one wants to hear that.
As to the topic at hand, which is a valid topic with a supporting poll with a small sample which does in fact represent the greater overall feeling of the gaming public who patronizes message boards. I feel they are about accurate and it is easy enough to say well a small amount claim it is a deal breaker, but it is the largest amount represented at the time of my writing. Add in the numbers from the other two categories and it seems fairly obvious it is a matter of concern for a large enough segment of the population.
I would also like to ask why it is people feel the need to thumb their noses at those who might actually enjoy this aspect of the game. Player housing is something I want in game in all my MMOs the technology is there for this to be in game. I find when there is no housing it is due to laziness and it is always promised later. Same thing with vehicles. We have had over 10 years of MMOs and we have the technology, the experience, and talent to create games without adding in things like vehicles, mounts, housing, and ship interiors AFTER the fact.
Also as a fan of the Star Trek universe dating back quite some time I am going to be honest with you, the ships WERE the universe. Yes they were boldly going... but they were going IN the ship. When the ship was invaded you felt like sacred ground was desecrated, if the ship was lost all hope was not far behind. So many of those stories and epic battles from the original show to TNG and beyond took place ON the ship and NOT just on the bridge I fail to see how this can not be seen as a major part of any game about Star Trek. In fact it boggles the mind.
If you want to zip through space shooting at each other (pew pewing for those of you with an IQ deficiency) there are games for you, but if you want to create a Star Trek game. How can it be you will not be able to see the rest of the ship where epic stories have been told, and the lives of friends have been lost for over forty years.
As to the topic at hand, which is a valid topic with a supporting poll with a small sample which does in fact represent the greater overall feeling of the gaming public who patronizes message boards. I feel they are about accurate and it is easy enough to say well a small amount claim it is a deal breaker, but it is the largest amount represented at the time of my writing. Add in the numbers from the other two categories and it seems fairly obvious it is a matter of concern for a large enough segment of the population. This site hardly represents the gaming public. If it did, World of Warcraft would be the least selling game there is since it has been bashed to death for the last 5 years around here.The poll only represents the overall feeling of the folks who frequent this site, which from my experience consists mostly of people who are never happy with any game. Take a poll of the people in the actual STO forum and you would get a much different result. And no, that isn't a forum of fanboys.Many of us there have different opinions on what should and shouldn't be in game. It just doesn't consist of a "my way or the highway" mentality on specifics. I would also like to ask why it is people feel the need to thumb their noses at those who might actually enjoy this aspect of the game. Player housing is something I want in game in all my MMOs the technology is there for this to be in game. I find when there is no housing it is due to laziness and it is always promised later. Same thing with vehicles. We have had over 10 years of MMOs and we have the technology, the experience, and talent to create games without adding in things like vehicles, mounts, housing, and ship interiors AFTER the fact. For you they are important, for most people they are fluff. Housing is not gamebreaking for most people and it adds lag and headaches for the developer. Too much of a hassle for something that is only enjoyed by a small niche audience. That isn't thumbing their nose at an audience, it's called making a wise business decision. Also as a fan of the Star Trek universe dating back quite some time I am going to be honest with you, the ships WERE the universe. Yes they were boldly going... but they were going IN the ship. When the ship was invaded you felt like sacred ground was desecrated, if the ship was lost all hope was not far behind. So many of those stories and epic battles from the original show to TNG and beyond took place ON the ship and NOT just on the bridge I fail to see how this can not be seen as a major part of any game about Star Trek. In fact it boggles the mind. So many of the stories and epic battles will take place in ships, starbases and land so you should be perfectly happy with the direction this game is going. Like in the show, you only saw the jeffries tube when they were there for a reason. You only saw the bridge of a ship when the episode called for it. You'll do the same in the game. You just won't be able to see your security officer picking his nose or hitting on a cute ensign while chatting on the bridge with your buddy and drinking earl grey.
If you want to zip through space shooting at each other (pew pewing for those of you with an IQ deficiency) there are games for you, but if you want to create a Star Trek game. How can it be you will not be able to see the rest of the ship where epic stories have been told, and the lives of friends have been lost for over forty years. Please read the Faqs that I have posted in another thread and which are available on the official website. It is not going to be just pew pewing. If you dpn't want to play the game because had your heart set on Star Trek SIm, that is perfectly valid. But don't make shit up about what the game is due to ignorance.
Originally posted by whpsh And, just for amusements sake, I decided to time an episode of TNG, just to see how much ship time made it into the show. Not including the opening credits I came up with 3min 32 seconds. And perhaps this was a bizarre outlier, but Wesley had nearly three times the amount of screen time as the ship. I decided to count Wesley because somewhere on the official forums, Hagonbak made a joke about Wesley being what Star Trek was about ... Irony perhaps?
What do you mean by "ship time"? Exterior shots? Random interior shots that showed people walking around and not following central characters?
I counted ship time as anything that might be taken as a view from the game "as it is" ... meaning third person exterior views.
Since this particular episode was entirely on the ship, all the remaining time was interior shots with a vast majority going to major characters. One episode wonders had a bit of screen time because they were diplomatic passengers ...
I understand that many people think the show is all about the ship ... but would the show be possible without ever showing the ship once? Maybe not every episode, but the one I watched certainly could have, and it was still a decent show.
If we were to reverse the question and postulate that every episode was an exterior view of the ship, but you could hear the crew talking ... how many minutes of watching the ship with the zipping star effect while listening to the crew would be possible before being driven entirely insane?
Obviously, the perfect answer is to have both in a perfect mix. Choosing either one with the "soon"(TM) promise is going to turn a great deal of people away from the game.
I would've chosen the route of establishing a serious base of roleplayers, who typically earn their own money and have an attention span long enough to watch a full episode (instead of just the combat), and then added the adrenaline junkies, who will likely just stay until something new comes out. I'd argue that there are likely many more people right now using MUDs, chats, java games, whatever they can, to fulfill their Star Trek dreams than there are playing the last Star Trek ship game.
Cryptic has decided to go the route of WAR ... 1.2 million sales to 300,000k subscriptions in less than six months.
Originally posted by Salvatoris I think it speaks volumes about the type of game they are making. It's going to be an action MMO, and probably won't have the kind of depth it would take to keep me interested for too long. Unfortunately, I think the same thing will be true for the Star Wars MMO.
I agree, if it were as simple as not having ship interiors it wouldn't have bothered me but theres lots of gameplay options that cannot be realized if you cannot even walk inside your ship and as you said it says alot of the type of game they are making. As for the new Star Wars MMO I didn't expect anything from that but I thought star trek may indeed offer some more depth. It just seems like it'll be dumbed down eve with some quest on planets.
Except players will be walking around ships in episodes where doing so is relevant to the story being told. Please go and learn something about the game. Thanks.
Hag all you do in defend them, can we say major fanboy.. if they took out ships and added bikes you would think it was so great they where thinking out of the box..
but i will still try it, but hope they add it later ..
That was funny.
I have been in this forum for a heartbeat now and hag, I am going to be honest all the LULZ and ROFLCOPTERS mark you as someone who is really immature, you might even have valid points but they are going to be lost on anyone with an IQ over ten. It is typical elitist 14 year old WoW guild speak coming out of your mouth and no one wants to hear that.
As to the topic at hand, which is a valid topic with a supporting poll with a small sample which does in fact represent the greater overall feeling of the gaming public who patronizes message boards. I feel they are about accurate and it is easy enough to say well a small amount claim it is a deal breaker, but it is the largest amount represented at the time of my writing. Add in the numbers from the other two categories and it seems fairly obvious it is a matter of concern for a large enough segment of the population.
I would also like to ask why it is people feel the need to thumb their noses at those who might actually enjoy this aspect of the game. Player housing is something I want in game in all my MMOs the technology is there for this to be in game. I find when there is no housing it is due to laziness and it is always promised later. Same thing with vehicles. We have had over 10 years of MMOs and we have the technology, the experience, and talent to create games without adding in things like vehicles, mounts, housing, and ship interiors AFTER the fact.
Also as a fan of the Star Trek universe dating back quite some time I am going to be honest with you, the ships WERE the universe. Yes they were boldly going... but they were going IN the ship. When the ship was invaded you felt like sacred ground was desecrated, if the ship was lost all hope was not far behind. So many of those stories and epic battles from the original show to TNG and beyond took place ON the ship and NOT just on the bridge I fail to see how this can not be seen as a major part of any game about Star Trek. In fact it boggles the mind.
If you want to zip through space shooting at each other (pew pewing for those of you with an IQ deficiency) there are games for you, but if you want to create a Star Trek game. How can it be you will not be able to see the rest of the ship where epic stories have been told, and the lives of friends have been lost for over forty years.
Well firstly, I couldn't care less what you think about my use of very well known, and oft used for years, intenet forum colloquialisms.
and secondly... well secondly your post is so full of untruths and mistakes I just don't want to start in on it because it would just be mean of me I think. You go ahead and believe all the rubbish you want to believe mate. All the power to you. Just don't expect that very many others will buy into it.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
I counted ship time as anything that might be taken as a view from the game "as it is" ... meaning third person exterior views.
Since this particular episode was entirely on the ship, all the remaining time was interior shots with a vast majority going to major characters. One episode wonders had a bit of screen time because they were diplomatic passengers ...
I understand that many people think the show is all about the ship ... but would the show be possible without ever showing the ship once? Maybe not every episode, but the one I watched certainly could have, and it was still a decent show.
If we were to reverse the question and postulate that every episode was an exterior view of the ship, but you could hear the crew talking ... how many minutes of watching the ship with the zipping star effect while listening to the crew would be possible before being driven entirely insane?
Obviously, the perfect answer is to have both in a perfect mix. Choosing either one with the "soon"(TM) promise is going to turn a great deal of people away from the game.
I would've chosen the route of establishing a serious base of roleplayers, who typically earn their own money and have an attention span long enough to watch a full episode (instead of just the combat), and then added the adrenaline junkies, who will likely just stay until something new comes out. I'd argue that there are likely many more people right now using MUDs, chats, java games, whatever they can, to fulfill their Star Trek dreams than there are playing the last Star Trek ship game.
Cryptic has decided to go the route of WAR ... 1.2 million sales to 300,000k subscriptions in less than six months.
STO is a GAME. In the end no matter how much other ... "stuff" is the polite term I'll use I guess, some of you people want to hang on it can change that. It's not TNG sim online. It's not Federation sim online. It's Star Trek Online the GAME. You can't make a GAME, and provide engaging and exciting game play, out of people walking around inside a ship.
You can't make a GAME, and provide engaging and exciting game play, out of people walking around inside a ship.
Yes you can. See Jump to lightspeed.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Everyone basicly likes different things in a game..... because people are basicaly different.... and have different tastes.
It seems that the standard mantra here is that when a person doesn't like a particular feature in a game is to claim that it'll only appeal to a "niche" audience, but when there is something a person really wants a particular feature in a game, they claim it has "mass appeal".
It's probably not even the case that people are being dishonest when they make these claims. It's a quirk of human nature.... EVERYONE thinks they are the norm. People also tend to hang out with folks who have similar interests and tastes as them... which only serves to reinforce those preconceptions. It's the old "I never met anyone who voted for X, how could he win?" syndrome.
The reality is, the only way to really know how much appeal a given feature has for a given target audience is to do a controled survey of them.... that's something that NONE of us here really have the ability to do. Heck, we don't even really know what target audience Cryptic is aiming for with the game, because the answers to which features are likely to be important will CHANGE based upon the target audience.
I'm willing to bet that if you goto the average "shoot-em-up" console gamer, they could care less if there were any RP aspects to the game... or ship interiors or multi-player crews. They'd probably be perfectly happy with a game where everyone was captain of a ship and the game was largely focused on ship to ship combat.
I'm also willing to bet that if you went to the average 40 year old soccer mom who grew up watching Star Trek (note, a much wider audience then most games appeal to)..... they probably wouldn't care if there was ANY combat in the game what-so-ever, let alone ship-to-ship combat. I'd bet you'd get VERY FEW who had interest in being captains (probably alot of doctors, and counselers and maybe scientists or engineers).... and multi-player ships and crews and interiors would be a requirement. They'd probably want a game focused on social interaction and on going to different systems, meeting new species, making discoveries and interacting with different crewpersons aboard thier ship.
So the real question IS what sort of audience is Cryptic targeting for with thier game. I definately believe that they will get an audience for the type of game they are making (single player ships and all).... but I definately believe it is a limited subset of the people that COULD be interested in a Star Trek MMO. They just AREN'T going to appeal to that other market segment with single-player ships, eveyone as captain and limited interiors. They can dress it up any way they like, but without including those, the game just isn't going to feel like "Star Trek" without those features.
Note, contrary to conspiracy theorists, I am NOT posting here in some sort of vein hope that Cryptic is going to make significant changes to the game based upon what they read here. That would be idiotic. Game companies don't just change their entire design based upon posts on a gaming forum. The best any poster could hope for even in their wildest dreams would be some very minor concessions..... which certainly wouldn't be enough to satisfy me. Cryptic is going to make the game they've decided on making.... at this point, even if they wanted to, it'd probably be too expensive to consider such a major design overhaul. Heck, for all I know...maybe it was never an option...and they were stuck with certain decisions from buying out Perpetuals work.
Bottom line is, the game is going to come out largely the way they described it.... it's not going to appeal to me, and I'm not going to play it. No big loss, I like Star Trek...but unlike many people, I'm not married to the IP. It's also not like there is any dearth of games out there in development or production.
I post here, because I'm interested in games in general.... interested in the decisions they make.....and how they turn out. Interested in discussing the impact of different design decisions....and interested in discussing the different things in games that appeal to different audiences.
Do I feel Cryptic is missing the boat here? Yes, I do. But it's their development dime, they get to do what they want with it.
The only things I actualy take umberage to is making grandiose claims as statements of "fact" when it's really just very personal statement of opinion without any objective data to support it. I also take umberage to any attempts to dress up the game Cryptic is making to be anything other then what it is. That's just misleading folks. The game will have an appeal for people who want an SFC MMO. It'll have an appeal for "pew pew" space ship sim shoot em up types. It'll have an appeal for solo-ers that want to Captain a starship. It won't have an appeal for people who want to play Scotty or McCoy or Security Ensign Smith and wander around on a starship with other players working to get things done..... and no amount of fancy rhetoric will make it so with the current planned feature set.
STO is a GAME. In the end no matter how much other ... "stuff" is the polite term I'll use I guess, some of you people want to hang on it can change that. It's not TNG sim online. It's not Federation sim online. It's Star Trek Online the GAME. You can't make a GAME, and provide engaging and exciting game play, out of people walking around inside a ship.
If by "stuff" you mean complex character development, community inclusion ... and doing ridiculous things like talking to other people without including "pwnt" and "n00b" in a seemingly ceaseless iteration ... you know, the things that actually define the whole genre. If I wanted a tactical simulation, like you suggest, I'd be all over the Armchair General Forums (which are good, no insult intended, just a completely different concept).
If you can't make a game about walking around inside a ship ... then how was WoW made? What defines a "level" or "area" is entirely up to the dev team. What is the physical difference, as it pertains to an avatar, between killing Tribbles in Engineering and Raiding the Obsidian Sanctum? The avatar is limited in space, sometimes time, skills, abilities, quests completed and remaining to complete ...
In fact, it's relatively easy to consider any episode as a single quest that the crew has to accomplish. Sometimes they work together, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they use the ship to help, sometimes it's just the mode of transportation. Even if they didn't do any original thought and just used the episodes to create quests, they'd have 723 total quests.
World of Warcraft, five years after its release date, only has 785, and some (meaning 11 million) people think there's plenty to do in that game.
GrumpyMel2 ... well put, sir. Well put.
I just get heated when the opportunity to create greatness is passed over. I don't know if Cryptic would've succeeded had they stuck with interiors ... and maybe they won't fail without them ... but they won't be any different than other MMOs out there. And I've always believed that if you jump for the stars and miss, you're still in a better place than aiming for a pile of poop and landing in it.
Except tthat if you really were just "interested in games in general" and not here to push some agenda, then you'd know that there is in fact definable trends as to what people prefer in these games, and fairly accurate data that good companies use that is based on past and present populations, exit surveys, target market sampling, etc etc.
It's not the crap shoot you seem to think it is. The reason for some of the big duds lately are pretty clear as well. For those truly following with an "interest in games in general" anyway. The problem lies with developers that either get too full of themselves and think that they know better what gamers will want than the gamers do (i.e.Guate Godager of AoC), or ones that buy into rhetoric spewed by "special interest groups" within their fan community that manage to gain the most volume and seemingly drown others out (i.e. MBJ of Mythic and WAR).
Sure there's a market for Star Trek simulation content in STO. There's a market for Orion brothels with fully simulated sex too. So does that mean that Orion brothels with fully simulated sex should be included in STO at launch? No, of course not. Should they be added later? Well if Cryptic felt that it was something that wasn't vital, but something that would be a perk and please some of their customers, and could be added later once they had some revenue coming in, then they probably would. That's how they're handling interiors. Why can't people just accept that?
They have to go with the content they feel will appeal to the widest variety of potential subscribers they can whilst being realistic in estimating that potential, wherein it lies., and also whilst staying within a budget and time frame given by those holding the money. Of course they knew their decisions regarding ship interiors would **** some people off. Evidently the data they're looking at doesn't show them that that particular segment being ****ed off will do their game all that much harm. That's not meant as a slight against the people that want them in at launch though. That's not Cryptic saying those people are wrong for wanting them. It is just what it is.
Comments
God, Hagon your so full of it.
People like my first post to you, were trying to explain that there is such a thing as a disagreement and you don't need to be an arse. They also explained to you that you repeatedly twisted peoples words like you did before that started this whole argument. This latest crap by you actually hasn't even been on player crews it has been about the polling and you trying to twist my words again.
Which makes me wonder what points did you rebut? You suggested I was saying something I wasn't and you responded the first time by just reasserting what you'd already suggested. Than I repeated myself again and you mentioned a typo. Now we are completely off track because you keep trying to save face, just give up mate. Your latest episode has no more substance than anything you ever have to say, you don't "rebut", hell you don't even acknowledge.
Man you really are into RP. You've created a whole fantasy just like that. Awesome.
God, Hagon your so full of it.
People like my first post to you, were trying to explain that there is such a thing as a disagreement and you don't need to be an arse. They also explained to you that you repeatedly twisted peoples words like you did before that started this whole argument. This latest crap by you actually hasn't even been on player crews it has been about the polling and you trying to twist my words again.
Which makes me wonder what points did you rebut? You suggested I was saying something I wasn't and you responded the first time by just reasserting what you'd already suggested. Than I repeated myself again and you mentioned a typo. Now we are completely off track because you keep trying to save face, just give up mate. Your latest episode has no more substance than anything you ever have to say, you don't "rebut", hell you don't even acknowledge.
Man you really are into RP. You've created a whole fantasy just like that. Awesome.
Well its there for all to see that it ain't no fantasy mate. I guess this last post of yours is what you'd call a "rebuttal". Just calling what I wrote fantasy despite the fact the older post are there, is well, pathetic.
Just calling what I wrote fantasy despite the fact the older post are there, is well, pathetic.
I'd say what's pathetic is how you've hounded me for all these posts with personal attack after personal attack simply because I take an opposing viewpoint on this particular issue. It's almost like you have a crush on me or something. I'm flattered, but......
Just calling what I wrote fantasy despite the fact the older post are there, is well, pathetic.
I'd say what's pathetic is how you've hounded me for all these posts with personal attack after personal attack simply because I take an opposing viewpoint on this particular issue. It's almost like you have a crush on me or something. I'm flattered, but......
Again I didn't disagree with you. Infact I didn't start this, you tried twisting my words and I have had enough. Its not an opposing viewpoint here. We both agree the poll doesn't mean that the people who want interiors and player crews aren't a niche. I just said the forums don't indicate it is a niche, however I made it clear of my doubts and you ignored it and persisted in trying to twist facts and my words. Just like you do now, " because I take an opposing viewpoint on this particular issue." Its nothing to do with you taking an opposing viewpoint infact its not even oppossing and I've already made that clear.
Yes, conveniently try and dodge the fact that you waded into the thread being negative about the game you obviously know very little about (albeit in a totally transparent slightly passive-aggressive manner), saying you have little interest because of no interiors.
Maintaining this attitude even after you were informed by someone who's , you know, actually taken the time to find out the facts about the game that there will be interiors in STO. Tons of interiors.
You're no different from the other's trying to drum up negativity so as to ebully Cryptic. You just went about it a bit different is all. Maybe that's why "you've had enough". Enough of someone seeing through your sham so easily I'd surmise.
Besides from the last paragraph thats actually sort of true, ofcourse you've put your usual spin on it with colourful words, still trying to save face I suppose. "try and dodge the fact that you waded into the thread being negative" Nope, not once in our recent spout did you even bring it up that I came into this thread with a "negative" attitude, so I had no reason to dodge anything and besides its not something I'd want to "to try and dodge". I'll leave the dodging to you.
"Maintaining this attitude even after you were informed by someone who's , you know, actually taken the time to find out the facts about the game that there will be interiors in STO. Tons of interiors." Thats sort of true too, I don't doubt you'd have learned more about this game but being in a ship interior when its relevant to the story didn't change my point as I mentioned at the time.
Now the last paragraph you wrote is probably part of your perceived "smear campaign on Cryptic" as I remember you putting it in another thread and once again I'll just say having a different opinion even if its negative shouldn't concern you. As for me having enough, I think you knew I meant enough of you.
Now most importantly you say I'm trying to "dodge" when this last spout had nothing to do with my first few post in this thread. This was about the polling in this thread. Once again you've tried to save face by bringing up something so far off track its not relevant. Once again you've disregarding the entire conversation up to this point. Once again you fail to acknowledge any relevant points that were made prior to this let alone rebut any of them and once again you make false allegations about me.
PS I've decided to use your text colouring method, maybe you use it because you yourself need it to notice the important/relevant points.
Firstly, let me define what type of game classifies as a "MMO". I am an old school MMORPG player, not a game console convert to MMOs, so for me a well designed MMO will be built upon the ability of Players to Roleplay properly...and in the case of a Star Trek MMO, that means that the Players should from Game Release be able to ambulate and interact within a ship, a ship designed from day one to be a vehicle for interaction and gameplay for the Players. Players in a Star Trek MMO should be able to do what the characters in the Star Trek TV and Movies do....Command the ship as a Captain, perform the duties of an Engineering Officer, a Helmsman, a Science Officer, etc. The Crew should be able to pilot the ship through the virtual universe based upon the Star Trek Universe, and should be able to leave the ship to do Away Missions on Planets or Stations. This means to me that a Star Trek MMO should be a MMORPG from day one of the design phase, and should include ship exteriors and space combat capabilities as well as ship interiors.
I realize that some MMO Players now only want combat (pew pew) and consider "RolePlaying" a four letter word. IMHO any MMO Player that feels this way should consider giving up MMO gaming because the Console Gaming Genre will satify them far more than attempting to join the MMORPG Genre and insist that Developers change MMOs into nothing more than Console Games with fancy graphics. If I offend anyone with that statement, rest assured that many present day MMO Players have offended me with their comments that Roleplaying has no place in an MMO. I am where I should be, that is playing an MMORPG...those that don't want to roleplay an MMO are the ones that are lost...they need to go back to Console and Single Player games.
IMHO any attempt to create a Star Trek MMO that is not designed as a MMORPG *and* is designed with not only space combat with exterior ship views but also "sandbox" style ship interiors and multiplayer ship crew features is a mistake...a mistake that will then need fixing via game expansions and patches. A well designed MMORPG should be able to be designed, produced, and released with all features from day one of release. If the Developers desire to create a multiplayer console space combat game built upon the Star Trek IP than fine. They just need to stop calling it an MMO, which is short for MMORPG.
As for Players "dueling the Engineering Officer" there is the Brig for those Players (I am serious, let the "Captain" Player put them in there for a time), and if those Players don't like that, then they get a Ban. Any Fan of Star Trek knows that attempting to duel anyone on board a Starship is grounds for a visit to the Brig. Same for the Players sneaking some "hanky panky" while on duty ingame....either they can meet each other on a Station (in private quarters/private PM) for that or get Banned as well. Same for the Spamming gold farmers and Players acting like idiots selling their stuff in a manner that violates common sense Role Play and Game Immersion.....Ban them. Those types of Players are usually destructive to a true MMO Player community anyways. It is better that a minority of Players that violate the rules of a proper MMO be banned than the Majority of Players learn to hate the game or MMOs in general because the minority is allowed to behave badly and get away with it.
I don't blame you for not reading the entire thread dedicated to players crews as they have now dragged on forever but those arguements have already been raised and argued. I'm telling you this because I couldn't be bothered argueing it again but so you can look for yourself if you care. As for it being a "small niche" I would think that be the case however the boards here don't suggest its that it is a niche. It doesn't mean its not, just that the boards don't reflect what you think.
So you believe that 38% out of 144 votes in a poll at a site with over a million members actually indicates it's NOT an extremely miniscule niche group?
Okies
By that logic, the game itself would be a dismal failure because only 144 people on a site with over a million members had enough interest to read the forums on it and answer a poll one way or another.
I don't think that the poll is NECCESARLY significant.... because it's obviously self-selective and a small sample size (although I'll point out that most Presidential Election polls use sample sizes in the 500-1000 person range).
However, it is interesting that of the people here who are interested here to actively read these forums and express an interest by answering a simple poll (i.e. the most interested audience for the game)....over half have expressed that not having the feature makes them less interested in the game....and over a third have expressed that it will be a deal breaker for them.
Not conclusive.... but it's better then any actual data (as opposed to conjecture/opinion) provided to oppose the idea...which is currently none.
Except I was on when it went up and most of those votes on the yes side happened within minutes of the poll going up. When these people "mysteriously" showed up out of the blue just to vote in it..... curious that......
LOL, You think people are actualy going to go through the effort to game this poll? What exactly would be the point of that?
It's not like it's actualy going to be USED to decide anything..... so why bother? Just to make you wrong?
Trust me, if I need to do that I'll just point the Orbital Mind Control Lasers in your direction..... oh you probably have a hat that protects against that don't you?
No I don't think everyone is "gaming" the poll, but some definitely did, and I know for a fact that there's some groups out there that have been carrying on with these efforts to fudge the picture, so to speak, so that a couple of issues appear far more important to most people than they really are. They did it on the STO forums with spamming threads to keep them alive and the one post alts creating multiple threads on the same subject (until Cryptic put a stop to it for the most part), and they've been doing it here too.
No ship interiors is kind of a buy breaker for me. I won't purchase it on release, but will likely wait a few months to see what's coming and going. I'm going to let others rush in, buying the IP and not the game "as it is" first. As I read somewhere (I really need to start writing these down) ... games only get one launch. It either exceeds expectations and pulls more people in, or it doesn't and people turn others away. I'm just nervous about the "Star Trek Online great game ... but NOT Star Trek" reviews.
And eventhough it's taken a long time, EVE is finally putting station interiors and avatars into their game. I can't imagine they'd bother to do that if everyone was JUST interested in flying their ships about ...
And, just for amusements sake, I decided to time an episode of TNG, just to see how much ship time made it into the show. Not including the opening credits I came up with 3min 32 seconds. And perhaps this was a bizarre outlier, but Wesley had nearly three times the amount of screen time as the ship. I decided to count Wesley because somewhere on the official forums, Hagonbak made a joke about Wesley being what Star Trek was about ... Irony perhaps?
What do you mean by "ship time"? Exterior shots? Random interior shots that showed people walking around and not following central characters?
-------------
The less you expect, the more you'll be surprised. Hopefully, pleasantly so.
I agree, if it were as simple as not having ship interiors it wouldn't have bothered me but theres lots of gameplay options that cannot be realized if you cannot even walk inside your ship and as you said it says alot of the type of game they are making. As for the new Star Wars MMO I didn't expect anything from that but I thought star trek may indeed offer some more depth. It just seems like it'll be dumbed down eve with some quest on planets.
Except players will be walking around ships in episodes where doing so is relevant to the story being told. Please go and learn something about the game. Thanks.
Hag all you do in defend them, can we say major fanboy.. if they took out ships and added bikes you would think it was so great they where thinking out of the box..
but i will still try it, but hope they add it later ..
That was funny.
I have been in this forum for a heartbeat now and hag, I am going to be honest all the LULZ and ROFLCOPTERS mark you as someone who is really immature, you might even have valid points but they are going to be lost on anyone with an IQ over ten. It is typical elitist 14 year old WoW guild speak coming out of your mouth and no one wants to hear that.
As to the topic at hand, which is a valid topic with a supporting poll with a small sample which does in fact represent the greater overall feeling of the gaming public who patronizes message boards. I feel they are about accurate and it is easy enough to say well a small amount claim it is a deal breaker, but it is the largest amount represented at the time of my writing. Add in the numbers from the other two categories and it seems fairly obvious it is a matter of concern for a large enough segment of the population.
I would also like to ask why it is people feel the need to thumb their noses at those who might actually enjoy this aspect of the game. Player housing is something I want in game in all my MMOs the technology is there for this to be in game. I find when there is no housing it is due to laziness and it is always promised later. Same thing with vehicles. We have had over 10 years of MMOs and we have the technology, the experience, and talent to create games without adding in things like vehicles, mounts, housing, and ship interiors AFTER the fact.
Also as a fan of the Star Trek universe dating back quite some time I am going to be honest with you, the ships WERE the universe. Yes they were boldly going... but they were going IN the ship. When the ship was invaded you felt like sacred ground was desecrated, if the ship was lost all hope was not far behind. So many of those stories and epic battles from the original show to TNG and beyond took place ON the ship and NOT just on the bridge I fail to see how this can not be seen as a major part of any game about Star Trek. In fact it boggles the mind.
If you want to zip through space shooting at each other (pew pewing for those of you with an IQ deficiency) there are games for you, but if you want to create a Star Trek game. How can it be you will not be able to see the rest of the ship where epic stories have been told, and the lives of friends have been lost for over forty years.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
What do you mean by "ship time"? Exterior shots? Random interior shots that showed people walking around and not following central characters?
I counted ship time as anything that might be taken as a view from the game "as it is" ... meaning third person exterior views.
Since this particular episode was entirely on the ship, all the remaining time was interior shots with a vast majority going to major characters. One episode wonders had a bit of screen time because they were diplomatic passengers ...
I understand that many people think the show is all about the ship ... but would the show be possible without ever showing the ship once? Maybe not every episode, but the one I watched certainly could have, and it was still a decent show.
If we were to reverse the question and postulate that every episode was an exterior view of the ship, but you could hear the crew talking ... how many minutes of watching the ship with the zipping star effect while listening to the crew would be possible before being driven entirely insane?
Obviously, the perfect answer is to have both in a perfect mix. Choosing either one with the "soon"(TM) promise is going to turn a great deal of people away from the game.
I would've chosen the route of establishing a serious base of roleplayers, who typically earn their own money and have an attention span long enough to watch a full episode (instead of just the combat), and then added the adrenaline junkies, who will likely just stay until something new comes out. I'd argue that there are likely many more people right now using MUDs, chats, java games, whatever they can, to fulfill their Star Trek dreams than there are playing the last Star Trek ship game.
Cryptic has decided to go the route of WAR ... 1.2 million sales to 300,000k subscriptions in less than six months.
I agree, if it were as simple as not having ship interiors it wouldn't have bothered me but theres lots of gameplay options that cannot be realized if you cannot even walk inside your ship and as you said it says alot of the type of game they are making. As for the new Star Wars MMO I didn't expect anything from that but I thought star trek may indeed offer some more depth. It just seems like it'll be dumbed down eve with some quest on planets.
Except players will be walking around ships in episodes where doing so is relevant to the story being told. Please go and learn something about the game. Thanks.
Hag all you do in defend them, can we say major fanboy.. if they took out ships and added bikes you would think it was so great they where thinking out of the box..
but i will still try it, but hope they add it later ..
That was funny.
I have been in this forum for a heartbeat now and hag, I am going to be honest all the LULZ and ROFLCOPTERS mark you as someone who is really immature, you might even have valid points but they are going to be lost on anyone with an IQ over ten. It is typical elitist 14 year old WoW guild speak coming out of your mouth and no one wants to hear that.
As to the topic at hand, which is a valid topic with a supporting poll with a small sample which does in fact represent the greater overall feeling of the gaming public who patronizes message boards. I feel they are about accurate and it is easy enough to say well a small amount claim it is a deal breaker, but it is the largest amount represented at the time of my writing. Add in the numbers from the other two categories and it seems fairly obvious it is a matter of concern for a large enough segment of the population.
I would also like to ask why it is people feel the need to thumb their noses at those who might actually enjoy this aspect of the game. Player housing is something I want in game in all my MMOs the technology is there for this to be in game. I find when there is no housing it is due to laziness and it is always promised later. Same thing with vehicles. We have had over 10 years of MMOs and we have the technology, the experience, and talent to create games without adding in things like vehicles, mounts, housing, and ship interiors AFTER the fact.
Also as a fan of the Star Trek universe dating back quite some time I am going to be honest with you, the ships WERE the universe. Yes they were boldly going... but they were going IN the ship. When the ship was invaded you felt like sacred ground was desecrated, if the ship was lost all hope was not far behind. So many of those stories and epic battles from the original show to TNG and beyond took place ON the ship and NOT just on the bridge I fail to see how this can not be seen as a major part of any game about Star Trek. In fact it boggles the mind.
If you want to zip through space shooting at each other (pew pewing for those of you with an IQ deficiency) there are games for you, but if you want to create a Star Trek game. How can it be you will not be able to see the rest of the ship where epic stories have been told, and the lives of friends have been lost for over forty years.
Well firstly, I couldn't care less what you think about my use of very well known, and oft used for years, intenet forum colloquialisms.
and secondly... well secondly your post is so full of untruths and mistakes I just don't want to start in on it because it would just be mean of me I think. You go ahead and believe all the rubbish you want to believe mate. All the power to you. Just don't expect that very many others will buy into it.
@OP
Yes, yes it does.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I counted ship time as anything that might be taken as a view from the game "as it is" ... meaning third person exterior views.
Since this particular episode was entirely on the ship, all the remaining time was interior shots with a vast majority going to major characters. One episode wonders had a bit of screen time because they were diplomatic passengers ...
I understand that many people think the show is all about the ship ... but would the show be possible without ever showing the ship once? Maybe not every episode, but the one I watched certainly could have, and it was still a decent show.
If we were to reverse the question and postulate that every episode was an exterior view of the ship, but you could hear the crew talking ... how many minutes of watching the ship with the zipping star effect while listening to the crew would be possible before being driven entirely insane?
Obviously, the perfect answer is to have both in a perfect mix. Choosing either one with the "soon"(TM) promise is going to turn a great deal of people away from the game.
I would've chosen the route of establishing a serious base of roleplayers, who typically earn their own money and have an attention span long enough to watch a full episode (instead of just the combat), and then added the adrenaline junkies, who will likely just stay until something new comes out. I'd argue that there are likely many more people right now using MUDs, chats, java games, whatever they can, to fulfill their Star Trek dreams than there are playing the last Star Trek ship game.
Cryptic has decided to go the route of WAR ... 1.2 million sales to 300,000k subscriptions in less than six months.
STO is a GAME. In the end no matter how much other ... "stuff" is the polite term I'll use I guess, some of you people want to hang on it can change that. It's not TNG sim online. It's not Federation sim online. It's Star Trek Online the GAME. You can't make a GAME, and provide engaging and exciting game play, out of people walking around inside a ship.
Yes you can. See Jump to lightspeed.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Yes you can. See Jump to lightspeed.
You mean where 99% of the people playing use single player ships? Yes, good idea using that for an example hehehehe.
Everyone basicly likes different things in a game..... because people are basicaly different.... and have different tastes.
It seems that the standard mantra here is that when a person doesn't like a particular feature in a game is to claim that it'll only appeal to a "niche" audience, but when there is something a person really wants a particular feature in a game, they claim it has "mass appeal".
It's probably not even the case that people are being dishonest when they make these claims. It's a quirk of human nature.... EVERYONE thinks they are the norm. People also tend to hang out with folks who have similar interests and tastes as them... which only serves to reinforce those preconceptions. It's the old "I never met anyone who voted for X, how could he win?" syndrome.
The reality is, the only way to really know how much appeal a given feature has for a given target audience is to do a controled survey of them.... that's something that NONE of us here really have the ability to do. Heck, we don't even really know what target audience Cryptic is aiming for with the game, because the answers to which features are likely to be important will CHANGE based upon the target audience.
I'm willing to bet that if you goto the average "shoot-em-up" console gamer, they could care less if there were any RP aspects to the game... or ship interiors or multi-player crews. They'd probably be perfectly happy with a game where everyone was captain of a ship and the game was largely focused on ship to ship combat.
I'm also willing to bet that if you went to the average 40 year old soccer mom who grew up watching Star Trek (note, a much wider audience then most games appeal to)..... they probably wouldn't care if there was ANY combat in the game what-so-ever, let alone ship-to-ship combat. I'd bet you'd get VERY FEW who had interest in being captains (probably alot of doctors, and counselers and maybe scientists or engineers).... and multi-player ships and crews and interiors would be a requirement. They'd probably want a game focused on social interaction and on going to different systems, meeting new species, making discoveries and interacting with different crewpersons aboard thier ship.
So the real question IS what sort of audience is Cryptic targeting for with thier game. I definately believe that they will get an audience for the type of game they are making (single player ships and all).... but I definately believe it is a limited subset of the people that COULD be interested in a Star Trek MMO. They just AREN'T going to appeal to that other market segment with single-player ships, eveyone as captain and limited interiors. They can dress it up any way they like, but without including those, the game just isn't going to feel like "Star Trek" without those features.
Note, contrary to conspiracy theorists, I am NOT posting here in some sort of vein hope that Cryptic is going to make significant changes to the game based upon what they read here. That would be idiotic. Game companies don't just change their entire design based upon posts on a gaming forum. The best any poster could hope for even in their wildest dreams would be some very minor concessions..... which certainly wouldn't be enough to satisfy me. Cryptic is going to make the game they've decided on making.... at this point, even if they wanted to, it'd probably be too expensive to consider such a major design overhaul. Heck, for all I know...maybe it was never an option...and they were stuck with certain decisions from buying out Perpetuals work.
Bottom line is, the game is going to come out largely the way they described it.... it's not going to appeal to me, and I'm not going to play it. No big loss, I like Star Trek...but unlike many people, I'm not married to the IP. It's also not like there is any dearth of games out there in development or production.
I post here, because I'm interested in games in general.... interested in the decisions they make.....and how they turn out. Interested in discussing the impact of different design decisions....and interested in discussing the different things in games that appeal to different audiences.
Do I feel Cryptic is missing the boat here? Yes, I do. But it's their development dime, they get to do what they want with it.
The only things I actualy take umberage to is making grandiose claims as statements of "fact" when it's really just very personal statement of opinion without any objective data to support it. I also take umberage to any attempts to dress up the game Cryptic is making to be anything other then what it is. That's just misleading folks. The game will have an appeal for people who want an SFC MMO. It'll have an appeal for "pew pew" space ship sim shoot em up types. It'll have an appeal for solo-ers that want to Captain a starship. It won't have an appeal for people who want to play Scotty or McCoy or Security Ensign Smith and wander around on a starship with other players working to get things done..... and no amount of fancy rhetoric will make it so with the current planned feature set.
STO is a GAME. In the end no matter how much other ... "stuff" is the polite term I'll use I guess, some of you people want to hang on it can change that. It's not TNG sim online. It's not Federation sim online. It's Star Trek Online the GAME. You can't make a GAME, and provide engaging and exciting game play, out of people walking around inside a ship.
If by "stuff" you mean complex character development, community inclusion ... and doing ridiculous things like talking to other people without including "pwnt" and "n00b" in a seemingly ceaseless iteration ... you know, the things that actually define the whole genre. If I wanted a tactical simulation, like you suggest, I'd be all over the Armchair General Forums (which are good, no insult intended, just a completely different concept).
If you can't make a game about walking around inside a ship ... then how was WoW made? What defines a "level" or "area" is entirely up to the dev team. What is the physical difference, as it pertains to an avatar, between killing Tribbles in Engineering and Raiding the Obsidian Sanctum? The avatar is limited in space, sometimes time, skills, abilities, quests completed and remaining to complete ...
In fact, it's relatively easy to consider any episode as a single quest that the crew has to accomplish. Sometimes they work together, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they use the ship to help, sometimes it's just the mode of transportation. Even if they didn't do any original thought and just used the episodes to create quests, they'd have 723 total quests.
World of Warcraft, five years after its release date, only has 785, and some (meaning 11 million) people think there's plenty to do in that game.
GrumpyMel2 ... well put, sir. Well put.
I just get heated when the opportunity to create greatness is passed over. I don't know if Cryptic would've succeeded had they stuck with interiors ... and maybe they won't fail without them ... but they won't be any different than other MMOs out there. And I've always believed that if you jump for the stars and miss, you're still in a better place than aiming for a pile of poop and landing in it.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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Except tthat if you really were just "interested in games in general" and not here to push some agenda, then you'd know that there is in fact definable trends as to what people prefer in these games, and fairly accurate data that good companies use that is based on past and present populations, exit surveys, target market sampling, etc etc.
It's not the crap shoot you seem to think it is. The reason for some of the big duds lately are pretty clear as well. For those truly following with an "interest in games in general" anyway. The problem lies with developers that either get too full of themselves and think that they know better what gamers will want than the gamers do (i.e.Guate Godager of AoC), or ones that buy into rhetoric spewed by "special interest groups" within their fan community that manage to gain the most volume and seemingly drown others out (i.e. MBJ of Mythic and WAR).
Sure there's a market for Star Trek simulation content in STO. There's a market for Orion brothels with fully simulated sex too. So does that mean that Orion brothels with fully simulated sex should be included in STO at launch? No, of course not. Should they be added later? Well if Cryptic felt that it was something that wasn't vital, but something that would be a perk and please some of their customers, and could be added later once they had some revenue coming in, then they probably would. That's how they're handling interiors. Why can't people just accept that?
They have to go with the content they feel will appeal to the widest variety of potential subscribers they can whilst being realistic in estimating that potential, wherein it lies., and also whilst staying within a budget and time frame given by those holding the money. Of course they knew their decisions regarding ship interiors would **** some people off. Evidently the data they're looking at doesn't show them that that particular segment being ****ed off will do their game all that much harm. That's not meant as a slight against the people that want them in at launch though. That's not Cryptic saying those people are wrong for wanting them. It is just what it is.