People say failed because the game sold like a million copies. Then a month later they were estimated at 300,000 users and now I'd be surprised if they're at 100,000. Dropping users at that record setting pace is why people call it a failure, and it is, the numbers keep dropping. They went to free trial sooner then any other release, because they are trying to get a user anywhere they can. That's called desperation.
People say failed because the game sold like a million copies. Then a month later they were estimated at 300,000 users and now I'd be surprised if they're at 100,000. Dropping users at that record setting pace is why people call it a failure, and it is, the numbers keep dropping. They went to free trial sooner then any other release, because they are trying to get a user anywhere they can. That's called desperation.
Lol, wasn't that harsh. Took them 3 months to get to 300k+ , on I'd assume 800/850k+ sales by then.
It's a harsh drop nonetheless when, in all reality, for all most of us could have speculated before release a game that had the potential to make just a strong a jump in the other direction.
Besides all the points mentioned (which would point the blame to mythic) in game design and execution (the muddy fighting is what really got to me) I also blame overhype. They overmarketed this game (Mything & EA) both and it just didn't deliver on expectations. The result is that some part of the player base (ironically those that were waiting for the game the longest) felt betrayed (i would count myself somewhere in there.)
You guys remember lines like this?
"There will be no namby-pamby healer-only classes. If you're really one of those people who just like sitting at the back, going 'and I heal, and I heal, and I heal' then go away" -Paul Barnett
Yeah.
After WAR i vowed never to read a single developer interview pre-release for the rest of my life
People say failed because the game sold like a million copies. Then a month later they were estimated at 300,000 users and now I'd be surprised if they're at 100,000. Dropping users at that record setting pace is why people call it a failure, and it is, the numbers keep dropping. They went to free trial sooner then any other release, because they are trying to get a user anywhere they can. That's called desperation.
I thought that was AoC
There are so many MMO failures out there its hard to keep them all straight
I think LotR had a free trial within a month or two from launch and IMHO, thinking when a free trial goes out is a sign of despiration is backwards. IMHO, if a game is good, it should launch with a trial like most other PC game genres. The lack of a trial shows a lack of confidence. Unfortunately most MMO's use a trial as "last ditch marketing".
My two cents - I've played MMOs since the original Everquest (Death was a real punishment back than).
I've downloaded the 10 trail on the weekend. It only lets you go to level 10 now. But my thoughts - it's just not fun. I have two characters.
From the laggy effects; ex - firing an arrow and wondering if it shot.
Characters - no customization, there is really any difference.
Non-seamless world - while in the original EQ it was fine, WOW proved that going from one Zone to the next doesn't have to be painful. It just seems choppy.
It seems that Mythic went all out in some areas (The tome of knowledge was somewhat nice) and skipped others.
Tried to do a battleground. I got in a query but it didn't tell me my position, or wait or anything. I got kicked out 3 times for no reason. That is just frustrating. A little information would have helped. Plus how come when you die, it flash up another screen before you respawn.
I tried skills like salvage in the game. The game didn't warn me I could only have one. Really the trainer didn't give me any information or story.
Look we can agree WOW was cartoonish, but at least it felt like a story. WAR is just a lot of information put on the screen that doesn't feel connected to the game. The quests were boring, I never felt a threat (yea yea level 10), and overall it was just bla.
Well for me the PvP part of war was the best part. Its not mindless to me, you cant just zerg a keep that has actual players defending it, you'd get owned with the quickness. There are actual tactics used when taking a keep, now WoW's PvP on the other hand, save LW, since I havent played there yet, is mindless to me. Well I guess there are some tactics, but they are very basic. If im in a BG all i do is either guard the flag or just run with a group and kill people and protect our flag runner. I got to the 3rd tier of WAR before I quit because even though I was having a blast with the RvR the PvE was lacking and a lot of features that I like in MMO's like item decay and a few other things were left out. But there was this battle I remember it was pretty close to 100vs.100 and we had all kinds of crazy stuff happening, It lasted at least 2 hours before Destruction gave up. But I have never had more fun PvPing in a game more than WAR it just wasn't enough to keep me playing the game.
The ONLY way to win a keep battle is zerg... You might be insane
I've played most major MMOPGs released over the last seven years. IMO, WAR is the best MMORPG released since WoW. It's far from a perfect game. There are indeed many flaws. However, it's the only title since WoW that has kept me actively playing for longer than six months.
I enjoyed scenarios in the beginning. However, I now completely avoid them. Focusing now on PQs and Open RvR almost exclusively, with working tome unlocks as a side pursuit, my perspective on scenarios has completely changed. I now agree with the opinion voiced by many before: "Scenarios ruined this game".
The scenario grind amplifies the already some what lacking immersion of the game world to a huge degree. It poisons you to what else the game has to offer. Scenarios offer you such an easy method of progression that it can make it very difficult for people to shift gears and enjoy the rest of the game.
I've also done the non-PQ PvE route. The PvE content, when isolated from the rest of the game play options, is actually fairly good. It's all capable, but little of it is inspired. Some areas are great, some are mediocre. However, I will agree that something is just lacking.
The world feels flat in many places. The setting is never thrilling. Even if I push myself to quest in areas geared for those a couple levels higher, I never feel a sense of danger. The game also fails to offer the quirky humor of WoW. No sense of drama, no sense of humor and very, very few "wow, that's frakin' cool" moments as you explore the world.
oRvR has actually been very fun for me, since it became a focus. Many "South Shore WoW mass PvP" kind of moments, assuming you are playing with players who want the fight, rather than just flipping Battlefield Objectives. Of course, that highlights a flaw. Although Mythic are working on ways to correct it, too many people would rather flip undefended objectives than get bloody with the other faction.
The variety of content and ways to play this game have provided longevity for me. O.K. PvE, rewarding PQ grinds, fun scenarios, compelling oRvR. I'm all for options. However, I will admit that WAR as a result has become a Jack of All Trades, Master of None sort of game. The wealth of content is excellent. It's just too bad that the over all quality of content is mediocre.
The community is decent compared to most other games today. The server merges have addressed the low population issues.
I think it's actually a good game for those between MMORPGs, but unless there are some major improvements as part of a compelling expansion it's really just a temporary home for those waiting for a truly great new MMORPG to hit the scene.
Listen, you guys can spend hours arguing, but I'm a game design student.
We discuss stuff like this at my school with ppl that are actual developers, one of them who worked for Mythic during the development of Warhammer.
Mythic designed WAR to be a dumbed down version of WoW, the guy that worked for Mythic even told us this is exactly what was discussed at a meeting they had with Mark Jacob.
To take the WoW donut design and eliminate the inner circle because they felt that it brought in too much tension between hardcore and casual gamers in WoW, making WAR a haven for casual gamers that don't want to go into too in depth with the game.
Mythics started off making WAR to be a dumbed down version on purpose...you kiddies can believe what ever you want to believe, this is the truth behind what the developers have to say....stuff that they wouldn't bring up with you guys around...lol
Anyways I'm bowing out of this thread because I can see we already have some WAR fanbois lurking around and I've argued with those morons enough as it is....
Considering it takes a moron to be a WAR fanboi considering the game was made purposely for idiots...XP
Listen, you guys can spend hours arguing, but I'm a game design student. We discuss stuff like this at my school with ppl that are actual developers, one of them who worked for Mythic during the development of Warhammer. Mythic designed WAR to be a dumbed down version of WoW, the guy that worked for Mythic even told us this is exactly what was discussed at a meeting they had with Mark Jacob. To take the WoW donut design and eliminate the inner circle because they felt that it brought in too much tension between hardcore and casual gamers in WoW, making WAR a haven for casual gamers that don't want to go into too in depth with the game. Mythics started off making WAR to be a dumbed down version on purpose...you kiddies can believe what ever you want to believe, this is the truth behind what the developers have to say....stuff that they wouldn't bring up with you guys around...lol Anyways I'm bowing out of this thread because I can see we already have some WAR fanbois lurking around and I've argued with those morons enough as it is.... Considering it takes a moron to be a WAR fanboi considering the game was made purposely for idiots...XP
Ahh, the troll shows it's skin. It's exactly this childish attitude why developers wouldn't be dumb enough to discuss senstitive statements like that with "game design students" such as you. If they conversation actually ever happened then I'm sure they mentioned Blizzard and WoW and how they wanted to build upon WoW's design (common propaganda hogwash). The dumbed down would just be your own flawed interpretation as a student who doesn't get it.
Now come on, call me a fanboi and give me and the rest of the people here a good laugh.
Listen, you guys can spend hours arguing, but I'm a game design student. We discuss stuff like this at my school with ppl that are actual developers, one of them who worked for Mythic during the development of Warhammer. Mythic designed WAR to be a dumbed down version of WoW, the guy that worked for Mythic even told us this is exactly what was discussed at a meeting they had with Mark Jacob. To take the WoW donut design and eliminate the inner circle because they felt that it brought in too much tension between hardcore and casual gamers in WoW, making WAR a haven for casual gamers that don't want to go into too in depth with the game. Mythics started off making WAR to be a dumbed down version on purpose...you kiddies can believe what ever you want to believe, this is the truth behind what the developers have to say....stuff that they wouldn't bring up with you guys around...lol Anyways I'm bowing out of this thread because I can see we already have some WAR fanbois lurking around and I've argued with those morons enough as it is.... Considering it takes a moron to be a WAR fanboi considering the game was made purposely for idiots...XP
Who would have thought, learning a trade and meeting people that work in that trade. I bet they even use thought provoking teaching techniques like Platonic irony to stimulate your free thinking. I dont suppose the WAR developer mentioned ground breaking contributions to the genre like public questing. I don't suppose they teach you about making games for others and not yourself? Hard concept for many young wannabees, as they are primarily motivated by the dream of a game just for them.
Its obvious WAR has perfect mini fun down to a science. THe problem is after you level to 40 and the same thing gets old. One major PvE expansion would fix every problem this game has. That being said Im playing other things until that content expansion come out.
Can i say, this is what ruined DAoC ... please mythic if you read this, don't bring out a major PvE content expac, focus on RvR
And *imo* what has ruined WAR and will continue doing so is Scenarios. They are easier than ORvR, more rewarding than ORvR and therefore people play them constantly ... leaving ORvR unpopulated. If ORvR was populated (instead of the WoW clone Scenarios being populated) then people would be able to at least try ORvR and see that it is fun.
Tip Of The Day: Pwned is pronounced exactly the same way as Owned
Well it's common knowledge now that WAR is a watered down half baked WoW clone that was made to draw casual PvPers with its even more brainless style of button meshing gameplay and zero skill requirements, and pretty much even offended the casual players on how brainless it was.
How can it be a watered down half baked WoW clone and yet have even more brainless style of button meshing??? I mean I thought WoW was the top brainless style and button mashing game out there.
Can't we just have all these types of threads sent to a new forum "MMO Haters Forum". I'd rather see threads being made that actually add something to the whole MMO genre than just trying to rip it apart all the time.
Listen, you guys can spend hours arguing, but I'm a game design student. We discuss stuff like this at my school with ppl that are actual developers, one of them who worked for Mythic during the development of Warhammer. Mythic designed WAR to be a dumbed down version of WoW, the guy that worked for Mythic even told us this is exactly what was discussed at a meeting they had with Mark Jacob. To take the WoW donut design and eliminate the inner circle because they felt that it brought in too much tension between hardcore and casual gamers in WoW, making WAR a haven for casual gamers that don't want to go into too in depth with the game. Mythics started off making WAR to be a dumbed down version on purpose...you kiddies can believe what ever you want to believe, this is the truth behind what the developers have to say....stuff that they wouldn't bring up with you guys around...lol Anyways I'm bowing out of this thread because I can see we already have some WAR fanbois lurking around and I've argued with those morons enough as it is.... Considering it takes a moron to be a WAR fanboi considering the game was made purposely for idiots...XP
Who would have thought, learning a trade and meeting people that work in that trade. I bet they even use thought provoking teaching techniques like Platonic irony to stimulate your free thinking. I dont suppose the WAR developer mentioned ground breaking contributions to the genre like public questing. I don't suppose they teach you about making games for others and not yourself? Hard concept for many young wannabees, as they are primarily motivated by the dream of a game just for them.
What is so groundbreaking about Public Quests? I don't see anything groundbreaking with it at all.
They are just scripted events. Nothing less. Nothing more.
LOTRO has plenty of them. Age of Conan has them too (not so much. But they are there in several quests).
Hence. Even WoW has scripted events in plenty of their quests. (I am talking pre-TBC here).
Mythic just put these scripted events in a public permanent setting in form of Public Quests. But they failed and turned them into just another way of boring mindless grinds.
All the PQ's are the same. Phase 1 = trash mobs, Phase 2 = elites and Phase 3 = boss. Rince and repeat. Rince and repeat.
So give me a break. WAR's PQ's aren't that groundbreaking at all.
LOTRO's Scripted events in many of their (Epic) questlines are a hell lot more fun, because they are dynamic, diverse and different each time. No Epic quest line is the same as the previous one.
Hence. Just take the 'Retake Weathertop' quest as example. Now that's what I call a hell of a fun Scripted Event. The endgame on the top is just plain awesome. Have done it so many times and never got bored with it.
Not the same copy&paste rehash as what Mythic did with their PQ's. You just got horribly bored with PQ's in general when the truth hit you and saw it were just boring grindfests to fill another bar for rewards.
--------------------
And to answer the OP. I don't think it was EA's doing in this one. All the blame lies with Mythic, because it already went wrong on the drawing board and thus initial design.
WAR is just a staple of one design flaw after the other. So many things that went wrong did go wrong.
I am not going into details, as most of you know what I mean as it has been discussed into great lengths the last 6 months.
From Tiers to PQ's to PVE in general to Classes. From PVP to Scenarios to Open RvR to mass PVP.
I like WAR, it has some issues but they can be fixed.
The major issues, like Mass PVP and Open RvR in general can't be fixed. As the current implementation is a horribly FLAWED design.
If it could be fixed, they would have done so already. They can't. Big part of it is just the technical limitations of their Game Engine. They have highly overestimated it's capabilities and is now biting them back in their ass BIG TIME.
That's why you have only been spoonfed by Carrot patches the last 6 months. And will continue to receive so in the future.
The new zone that is coming is just Mythic's way to try move the attention of their customers away from their currently flawed Open RvR endgame.
They just hope that all max level people will start focussing solely on the new zone when it comes and all forget about the current endgame and Open RvR stuff with all it's issues.
I know this is a WAR hating thread. BUt the fact is that WAR with all its flaws is still a better MMO than a majority of other games out there. If its mnot what you want, best thing to do is go back to the last game you enjoyed playing
Absolutely right. I've played plenty of MMORPGs, and WAR is easily my favourite. There may still be nothing that comes close to the subscription levels of WoW (something that completely mystifies me), but WAR is one of the most successful alternatives.
Why don't you haters just go and play whatever MMO you do like? Or do you enjoy hating MMOs more than you enjoy playing any of them?
I know this is a WAR hating thread. BUt the fact is that WAR with all its flaws is still a better MMO than a majority of other games out there. If its mnot what you want, best thing to do is go back to the last game you enjoyed playing
Absolutely right. I've played plenty of MMORPGs, and WAR is easily my favourite. There may still be nothing that comes close to the subscription levels of WoW (something that completely mystifies me), but WAR is one of the most successful alternatives.
Why don't you haters just go and play whatever MMO you do like? Or do you enjoy hating MMOs more than you enjoy playing any of them?
What constitutes "successfull alternative" for you? If you mean a game you like then can't any other game be a successful alternative as long as the person likes that game?
The reason I ask is since you do quantify it's success. (most)
I know this is a WAR hating thread. BUt the fact is that WAR with all its flaws is still a better MMO than a majority of other games out there. If its mnot what you want, best thing to do is go back to the last game you enjoyed playing
Absolutely right. I've played plenty of MMORPGs, and WAR is easily my favourite. There may still be nothing that comes close to the subscription levels of WoW (something that completely mystifies me), but WAR is one of the most successful alternatives.
Why don't you haters just go and play whatever MMO you do like? Or do you enjoy hating MMOs more than you enjoy playing any of them?
What constitutes "successfull alternative" for you? If you mean a game you like then can't any other game be a successful alternative as long as the person likes that game?
The reason I ask is since you do quantify it's success. (most)
It's in my post - subscription levels. Of all the thousands of MMOs out there, WAR easily makes the top 10.
WoW is unquestionably successful, but certainly not a game I like. But I've got better things to do than post in the hate threads of the games I don't like.
Got to go - time for some RvR. Don't want to disturb you haters any more.
I know this is a WAR hating thread. BUt the fact is that WAR with all its flaws is still a better MMO than a majority of other games out there. If its mnot what you want, best thing to do is go back to the last game you enjoyed playing
Absolutely right. I've played plenty of MMORPGs, and WAR is easily my favourite. There may still be nothing that comes close to the subscription levels of WoW (something that completely mystifies me), but WAR is one of the most successful alternatives.
Why don't you haters just go and play whatever MMO you do like? Or do you enjoy hating MMOs more than you enjoy playing any of them?
You are right that you don't need to have WoW subscription levels to be succesful.
But the current subscription levels in WAR aren't that good either. Not as bad yet as AoC... but not that much better either.
The people that are left playing are still complaining all over the internet about population issues, realm balance issues and sheer lack of Open RvR and the very long scenario queue times.
If you are on either Phoenix Throne (US) or Karak Eight Peaks (EU), then sure you are lucky and still have plenty of action going on. (with all it's still ongoing lag, disconnect and delay issues).
But all the other servers (that are left). Those people aren't so lucky and are basically screwed!
That is one of the MAJOR design flaws of WAR. They made it too population dependend.
On my server (EU one) on wich I had a guild and played till mid january this year we had a very good population and good community.
Till early november there was plenty of RvR happening. Scenarios popped almost instantly.
Then in december the Open RvR started to happen less and less. Scenarios only popped once in 20 mins to half hour.
And in January (just before I threw the towel in the ring) Open RvR was hardly happening. Even in Tier4. Just some orchestrated keep swapping for gear. And Scenarios hardly popped anymore.
My guild, wich had over 50 members (around 20 active each night) in September/october. There was only me and 3 officers left in January.
Many other guilds on my server suffered the same. And same issues on other servers.
Everyone left unanimous for the same reason: It had become boring (especially PVE was just a joke) and PVP was too few and if it was happening it was just a boring lagging CC zergfest with disconect and delay issues. But most of the time, RAID's were just swapping keeps (without fighting) for the loot *puke*.
I know this is a WAR hating thread. BUt the fact is that WAR with all its flaws is still a better MMO than a majority of other games out there. If its mnot what you want, best thing to do is go back to the last game you enjoyed playing
Absolutely right. I've played plenty of MMORPGs, and WAR is easily my favourite. There may still be nothing that comes close to the subscription levels of WoW (something that completely mystifies me), but WAR is one of the most successful alternatives.
Why don't you haters just go and play whatever MMO you do like? Or do you enjoy hating MMOs more than you enjoy playing any of them?
What constitutes "successfull alternative" for you? If you mean a game you like then can't any other game be a successful alternative as long as the person likes that game?
The reason I ask is since you do quantify it's success. (most)
It's in my post - subscription levels. Of all the thousands of MMOs out there, WAR easily makes the top 10.
WoW is unquestionably successful, but certainly not a game I like. But I've got better things to do than post in the hate threads of the games I don't like.
Got to go - time for some RvR. Don't want to disturb you haters any more.
So far it's hardly more succesful then AoC then. Both had big population starts and then dropped off significantly.
We don't really know where WAR is right now sub wise. I'd personally guess between 250k-300. I see your point though, in essence that sub number would still be considerably high, when compared to past MMO's.
That's only if you really juxtapose it to them on one on one sub numbers though.
Take Daoc for example. A game made by a small company with a few million cash that had a rocky start (content wise, think hib dungeons unitemized, things like that, launch was fine though) started off slowly then after what, 6 months or so grew to a playerbase of 250k people and *kept* that playerbase for a prolongued period.
Then contrast it to WAR, a game created by an "experienced" developer said to have cost "less than 100million" but according to MJ's words had one of the highest budgets a MMO ever had so somewhere between 50 and 100 no doubt. Incredible pre launch hype, a huge surge of initial players the likes of which only AoC had a precedent before this. 750k players bought the game, a number a game like Daoc could only have dreamed of.
And 3 months later that last game is already down to Daoc's prime level of subs.
I know success can be quanitified in many ways, but if I took those 2 examples, I would not call WAR a success story.
I know this is a WAR hating thread. BUt the fact is that WAR with all its flaws is still a better MMO than a majority of other games out there. If its mnot what you want, best thing to do is go back to the last game you enjoyed playing
Absolutely right. I've played plenty of MMORPGs, and WAR is easily my favourite. There may still be nothing that comes close to the subscription levels of WoW (something that completely mystifies me), but WAR is one of the most successful alternatives.
Why don't you haters just go and play whatever MMO you do like? Or do you enjoy hating MMOs more than you enjoy playing any of them?
You are right that you don't need to have WoW subscription levels to be succesful.
But the current subscription levels in WAR aren't that good either. Not as bad yet as AoC... but not that much better either.
The people that are left playing are still complaining all over the internet about population issues, realm balance issues and sheer lack of Open RvR and the very long scenario queue times.
If you are on either Phoenix Throne (US) or Karak Eight Peaks (EU), then sure you are lucky and still have plenty of action going on. (with all it's still ongoing lag, disconnect and delay issues).
But all the other servers (that are left). Those people aren't so lucky and are basically screwed!
That is one of the MAJOR design flaws of WAR. They made it too population dependend.
On my server (EU one) on wich I had a guild and played till mid january this year we had a very good population and good community.
Till early november there was plenty of RvR happening. Scenarios popped almost instantly.
Then in december the Open RvR started to happen less and less. Scenarios only popped once in 20 mins to half hour.
And in January (just before I threw the towel in the ring) Open RvR was hardly happening. Even in Tier4. Just some orchestrated keep swapping for gear. And Scenarios hardly popped anymore.
My guild, wich had over 50 members (around 20 active each night) in September/october. There was only me and 3 officers left in January.
Many other guilds on my server suffered the same. And same issues on other servers.
Everyone left unanimous for the same reason: It had become boring (especially PVE was just a joke) and PVP was too few and if it was happening it was just a boring lagging CC zergfest with disconect and delay issues. But most of the time, RAID's were just swapping keeps (without fighting) for the loot *puke*.
Cheers
I don't know if you stayed to play at the REALLY low population servers, but the server I play in has RvR VERY often. We have a lot of zone swaps each day, around 6-10 swaps for both sides and usually get around 1-2 fort sieges per night. There have been a lot of downsides with WAR, yes, but there have been a lot of improvements to the game. If you gave up the game at January, then you left at a really bad time. February to March was around the time WAR got most of the RvR improvements and since the domination system, RvR is BOOMING on most servers.
All MMOs have a rough start, WAR just had a slighty more bumpier start. If you like PvP, more then the PvP WoW offers (joke), WAR is good for you. If you prefer good PvE, you might be a little dissappointed. WAR has PvE in it, but it's a PvP game. All this talk of WAR being a total letdown is correct, for some people, but not all of us. I got my inspiration back to WAR since the release of the Slayer class. Atleast it's not like the "I win button" classes we have in the game. If you don't like the game, then it's okay. You don't need to start telling other people why they shouldn't play the game or not. It's childish and I don't see how you can benefit from it.
All MMOs have a rough start, WAR just had a slighty more bumpier start. If you like PvP, more then the PvP WoW offers (joke), WAR is good for you. If you prefer good PvE, you might be a little dissappointed. WAR has PvE in it, but it's a PvP game. All this talk of WAR being a total letdown is correct, for some people, but not all of us. I got my inspiration back to WAR since the release of the Slayer class. Atleast it's not like the "I win button" classes we have in the game. If you don't like the game, then it's okay. You don't need to start telling other people why they shouldn't play the game or not. It's childish and I don't see how you can benefit from it.
I'm going to rant now, and it's not against you Zoldaire. But inspired by similar posts I have read over the months which you conveniently summarized and I highligted in red.
Let's get one thing straight, right off the bat. PvP in WaR is TEH SUCK to use terminology most on these forums will immediately grasp. Let's all stop hiding behind the over-abused "well ofc the PVE sucks, it's a PVP game" cause it's not, or at least not a well made one. The best that can be said to define pvp in this game is calling it WoW: Casual PvP edition.
So why is this a bad PVP game?
FUndamentally, because it does nothing a PVP game should do well.
1) Mega lag in most "large" scale battles. That in and of itself is no good in a Pvp game. Right?
2) Total and complete lack of tactical or strategic elements. It's a bloody button mashing zerg. Just face it.
3) Classes are flat. Yes, yes there's 3 gazillion of them etc (well divided by two if you consider mirrors) but if you stopped to look at skills and abilities you would see that they really mimic each other much more than appearance would let on (gimmicky class mechanics excluded). (Pushbacks, detaunts, etc everyone has them). Additionally abilities for many classes are very uninsipired. Ex. Archmage's 3 main heals are a "Direct heal" "direct + hot" *hot" I mean... come on devs!. Another game we all know released its then main healer with that exact set up... but that was eons ago in gaming history.
4) Combat is muddy. There is no justifying this and it has no excuse. The combat IS muddy. Most f2p games have better combat strcture (animations, synch, lag, targetting, etc) than WAR.
5) WaR is nowhere. Yes yes again if you're on one of two? three? high pop, balanced servers you could run into a battle. But for most peeps (and for months after realase) there simply was NONE. This again is unacceptable for a pvp oriented game.
I'm sure there's more but that should get the flamers going.
For your second point.
There is a very good reason why I would LOVE to see whoever is left in the game leave. I am very tired of crap mmos being released by companies to make a profit a leeching off those consumers that for whatever absurd reason decide to stick with it and give them money for half baked products.
Why?
Because (true for every other product categor but MMOs it seems) if a product sucks it gets pulled. If it underperforms it gets pulled. If it does not reach certain RoIs it gets pulled. In short, if it is not successful it get pulled.
"oh but WaR is successful! it doesn't have to have 10mil subs to be successful!"
Wrong.
Let's stick with the usual accepted figures: (and remember that the game cost "less than 100mil $ but was considered one of the largest investments in MMO history)
1 Mil boxes
750k sold
250k current subscribers (if that)
Ok... let's use those same figures in other scenarios.
A tv show launches and is expected to take 10 million viewers. It does ok at 7.5m the first week. Three weeks down the line it's a 2.5mil. Guess what happens to that TV show? It gets yanked.
A new car launches on the market and sells 100k the first month, 75k the next and 25k the following three. Are they going to make a new version of it the coming year? Probably not.
An electronics company produces 1milion esoteric kitchen appliances. It ships 750k and 500k get returned to the shop. Will you ever see one of those again?
And so on and so forth.
The reason why these games can carry on with such objectively dismal performance is that the MMO business model allows it. They've made the game the high up front costs have been already paid and they've sold the boxes. Now, provided they keep a minimum of turkies... i mean players paying every month (with the added bonus of some other barnyard birds buying the box further down the line) they have more money to be made going on (minus salaries and maint etc) than they have with closing down the whole operation. It's that simple.
So yes, for the love of all that's holy... stop playing this wretched game. If enough crap MMOs die a spectacular fiery death then MAYBE we'll have developers really thinking about what they're producing instead of the half-baked uninispired and badly designed (and unfunished to top it all off) crap that is unfortunately now the norm and that sells anyway.
Comments
People say failed because the game sold like a million copies. Then a month later they were estimated at 300,000 users and now I'd be surprised if they're at 100,000. Dropping users at that record setting pace is why people call it a failure, and it is, the numbers keep dropping. They went to free trial sooner then any other release, because they are trying to get a user anywhere they can. That's called desperation.
Lol, wasn't that harsh. Took them 3 months to get to 300k+ , on I'd assume 800/850k+ sales by then.
It's a harsh drop nonetheless when, in all reality, for all most of us could have speculated before release a game that had the potential to make just a strong a jump in the other direction.
Besides all the points mentioned (which would point the blame to mythic) in game design and execution (the muddy fighting is what really got to me) I also blame overhype. They overmarketed this game (Mything & EA) both and it just didn't deliver on expectations. The result is that some part of the player base (ironically those that were waiting for the game the longest) felt betrayed (i would count myself somewhere in there.)
You guys remember lines like this?
"There will be no namby-pamby healer-only classes. If you're really one of those people who just like sitting at the back, going 'and I heal, and I heal, and I heal' then go away" -Paul Barnett
Yeah.
After WAR i vowed never to read a single developer interview pre-release for the rest of my life
I thought that was AoC
There are so many MMO failures out there its hard to keep them all straight
I think LotR had a free trial within a month or two from launch and IMHO, thinking when a free trial goes out is a sign of despiration is backwards. IMHO, if a game is good, it should launch with a trial like most other PC game genres. The lack of a trial shows a lack of confidence. Unfortunately most MMO's use a trial as "last ditch marketing".
My two cents - I've played MMOs since the original Everquest (Death was a real punishment back than).
I've downloaded the 10 trail on the weekend. It only lets you go to level 10 now. But my thoughts - it's just not fun. I have two characters.
From the laggy effects; ex - firing an arrow and wondering if it shot.
Characters - no customization, there is really any difference.
Non-seamless world - while in the original EQ it was fine, WOW proved that going from one Zone to the next doesn't have to be painful. It just seems choppy.
It seems that Mythic went all out in some areas (The tome of knowledge was somewhat nice) and skipped others.
Tried to do a battleground. I got in a query but it didn't tell me my position, or wait or anything. I got kicked out 3 times for no reason. That is just frustrating. A little information would have helped. Plus how come when you die, it flash up another screen before you respawn.
I tried skills like salvage in the game. The game didn't warn me I could only have one. Really the trainer didn't give me any information or story.
Look we can agree WOW was cartoonish, but at least it felt like a story. WAR is just a lot of information put on the screen that doesn't feel connected to the game. The quests were boring, I never felt a threat (yea yea level 10), and overall it was just bla.
EA didn't cause this. Mythic did.
The ONLY way to win a keep battle is zerg... You might be insane
I've played most major MMOPGs released over the last seven years. IMO, WAR is the best MMORPG released since WoW. It's far from a perfect game. There are indeed many flaws. However, it's the only title since WoW that has kept me actively playing for longer than six months.
I enjoyed scenarios in the beginning. However, I now completely avoid them. Focusing now on PQs and Open RvR almost exclusively, with working tome unlocks as a side pursuit, my perspective on scenarios has completely changed. I now agree with the opinion voiced by many before: "Scenarios ruined this game".
The scenario grind amplifies the already some what lacking immersion of the game world to a huge degree. It poisons you to what else the game has to offer. Scenarios offer you such an easy method of progression that it can make it very difficult for people to shift gears and enjoy the rest of the game.
I've also done the non-PQ PvE route. The PvE content, when isolated from the rest of the game play options, is actually fairly good. It's all capable, but little of it is inspired. Some areas are great, some are mediocre. However, I will agree that something is just lacking.
The world feels flat in many places. The setting is never thrilling. Even if I push myself to quest in areas geared for those a couple levels higher, I never feel a sense of danger. The game also fails to offer the quirky humor of WoW. No sense of drama, no sense of humor and very, very few "wow, that's frakin' cool" moments as you explore the world.
oRvR has actually been very fun for me, since it became a focus. Many "South Shore WoW mass PvP" kind of moments, assuming you are playing with players who want the fight, rather than just flipping Battlefield Objectives. Of course, that highlights a flaw. Although Mythic are working on ways to correct it, too many people would rather flip undefended objectives than get bloody with the other faction.
The variety of content and ways to play this game have provided longevity for me. O.K. PvE, rewarding PQ grinds, fun scenarios, compelling oRvR. I'm all for options. However, I will admit that WAR as a result has become a Jack of All Trades, Master of None sort of game. The wealth of content is excellent. It's just too bad that the over all quality of content is mediocre.
The community is decent compared to most other games today. The server merges have addressed the low population issues.
I think it's actually a good game for those between MMORPGs, but unless there are some major improvements as part of a compelling expansion it's really just a temporary home for those waiting for a truly great new MMORPG to hit the scene.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Listen, you guys can spend hours arguing, but I'm a game design student.
We discuss stuff like this at my school with ppl that are actual developers, one of them who worked for Mythic during the development of Warhammer.
Mythic designed WAR to be a dumbed down version of WoW, the guy that worked for Mythic even told us this is exactly what was discussed at a meeting they had with Mark Jacob.
To take the WoW donut design and eliminate the inner circle because they felt that it brought in too much tension between hardcore and casual gamers in WoW, making WAR a haven for casual gamers that don't want to go into too in depth with the game.
Mythics started off making WAR to be a dumbed down version on purpose...you kiddies can believe what ever you want to believe, this is the truth behind what the developers have to say....stuff that they wouldn't bring up with you guys around...lol
Anyways I'm bowing out of this thread because I can see we already have some WAR fanbois lurking around and I've argued with those morons enough as it is....
Considering it takes a moron to be a WAR fanboi considering the game was made purposely for idiots...XP
Ahh, the troll shows it's skin. It's exactly this childish attitude why developers wouldn't be dumb enough to discuss senstitive statements like that with "game design students" such as you. If they conversation actually ever happened then I'm sure they mentioned Blizzard and WoW and how they wanted to build upon WoW's design (common propaganda hogwash). The dumbed down would just be your own flawed interpretation as a student who doesn't get it.
Now come on, call me a fanboi and give me and the rest of the people here a good laugh.
Who would have thought, learning a trade and meeting people that work in that trade. I bet they even use thought provoking teaching techniques like Platonic irony to stimulate your free thinking. I dont suppose the WAR developer mentioned ground breaking contributions to the genre like public questing. I don't suppose they teach you about making games for others and not yourself? Hard concept for many young wannabees, as they are primarily motivated by the dream of a game just for them.
Can i say, this is what ruined DAoC ... please mythic if you read this, don't bring out a major PvE content expac, focus on RvR
And *imo* what has ruined WAR and will continue doing so is Scenarios. They are easier than ORvR, more rewarding than ORvR and therefore people play them constantly ... leaving ORvR unpopulated. If ORvR was populated (instead of the WoW clone Scenarios being populated) then people would be able to at least try ORvR and see that it is fun.
Tip Of The Day: Pwned is pronounced exactly the same way as Owned
Can't we just have all these types of threads sent to a new forum "MMO Haters Forum".
I'd rather see threads being made that actually add something to the whole MMO genre than just trying to rip it apart all the time.
How can it be a watered down half baked WoW clone and yet have even more brainless style of button meshing??? I mean I thought WoW was the top brainless style and button mashing game out there.
Absolutely agree.
Who would have thought, learning a trade and meeting people that work in that trade. I bet they even use thought provoking teaching techniques like Platonic irony to stimulate your free thinking. I dont suppose the WAR developer mentioned ground breaking contributions to the genre like public questing. I don't suppose they teach you about making games for others and not yourself? Hard concept for many young wannabees, as they are primarily motivated by the dream of a game just for them.
What is so groundbreaking about Public Quests? I don't see anything groundbreaking with it at all.
They are just scripted events. Nothing less. Nothing more.
LOTRO has plenty of them. Age of Conan has them too (not so much. But they are there in several quests).
Hence. Even WoW has scripted events in plenty of their quests. (I am talking pre-TBC here).
Mythic just put these scripted events in a public permanent setting in form of Public Quests. But they failed and turned them into just another way of boring mindless grinds.
All the PQ's are the same. Phase 1 = trash mobs, Phase 2 = elites and Phase 3 = boss. Rince and repeat. Rince and repeat.
So give me a break. WAR's PQ's aren't that groundbreaking at all.
LOTRO's Scripted events in many of their (Epic) questlines are a hell lot more fun, because they are dynamic, diverse and different each time. No Epic quest line is the same as the previous one.
Hence. Just take the 'Retake Weathertop' quest as example. Now that's what I call a hell of a fun Scripted Event. The endgame on the top is just plain awesome. Have done it so many times and never got bored with it.
Not the same copy&paste rehash as what Mythic did with their PQ's. You just got horribly bored with PQ's in general when the truth hit you and saw it were just boring grindfests to fill another bar for rewards.
--------------------
And to answer the OP. I don't think it was EA's doing in this one. All the blame lies with Mythic, because it already went wrong on the drawing board and thus initial design.
WAR is just a staple of one design flaw after the other. So many things that went wrong did go wrong.
I am not going into details, as most of you know what I mean as it has been discussed into great lengths the last 6 months.
From Tiers to PQ's to PVE in general to Classes. From PVP to Scenarios to Open RvR to mass PVP.
Cheers
I like WAR, it has some issues but they can be fixed.
The major issues, like Mass PVP and Open RvR in general can't be fixed. As the current implementation is a horribly FLAWED design.
If it could be fixed, they would have done so already. They can't. Big part of it is just the technical limitations of their Game Engine. They have highly overestimated it's capabilities and is now biting them back in their ass BIG TIME.
That's why you have only been spoonfed by Carrot patches the last 6 months. And will continue to receive so in the future.
The new zone that is coming is just Mythic's way to try move the attention of their customers away from their currently flawed Open RvR endgame.
They just hope that all max level people will start focussing solely on the new zone when it comes and all forget about the current endgame and Open RvR stuff with all it's issues.
Cheers
Absolutely right. I've played plenty of MMORPGs, and WAR is easily my favourite. There may still be nothing that comes close to the subscription levels of WoW (something that completely mystifies me), but WAR is one of the most successful alternatives.
Why don't you haters just go and play whatever MMO you do like? Or do you enjoy hating MMOs more than you enjoy playing any of them?
Absolutely right. I've played plenty of MMORPGs, and WAR is easily my favourite. There may still be nothing that comes close to the subscription levels of WoW (something that completely mystifies me), but WAR is one of the most successful alternatives.
Why don't you haters just go and play whatever MMO you do like? Or do you enjoy hating MMOs more than you enjoy playing any of them?
What constitutes "successfull alternative" for you? If you mean a game you like then can't any other game be a successful alternative as long as the person likes that game?
The reason I ask is since you do quantify it's success. (most)
Absolutely right. I've played plenty of MMORPGs, and WAR is easily my favourite. There may still be nothing that comes close to the subscription levels of WoW (something that completely mystifies me), but WAR is one of the most successful alternatives.
Why don't you haters just go and play whatever MMO you do like? Or do you enjoy hating MMOs more than you enjoy playing any of them?
What constitutes "successfull alternative" for you? If you mean a game you like then can't any other game be a successful alternative as long as the person likes that game?
The reason I ask is since you do quantify it's success. (most)
It's in my post - subscription levels. Of all the thousands of MMOs out there, WAR easily makes the top 10.
WoW is unquestionably successful, but certainly not a game I like. But I've got better things to do than post in the hate threads of the games I don't like.
Got to go - time for some RvR. Don't want to disturb you haters any more.
Absolutely right. I've played plenty of MMORPGs, and WAR is easily my favourite. There may still be nothing that comes close to the subscription levels of WoW (something that completely mystifies me), but WAR is one of the most successful alternatives.
Why don't you haters just go and play whatever MMO you do like? Or do you enjoy hating MMOs more than you enjoy playing any of them?
You are right that you don't need to have WoW subscription levels to be succesful.
But the current subscription levels in WAR aren't that good either. Not as bad yet as AoC... but not that much better either.
The people that are left playing are still complaining all over the internet about population issues, realm balance issues and sheer lack of Open RvR and the very long scenario queue times.
If you are on either Phoenix Throne (US) or Karak Eight Peaks (EU), then sure you are lucky and still have plenty of action going on. (with all it's still ongoing lag, disconnect and delay issues).
But all the other servers (that are left). Those people aren't so lucky and are basically screwed!
That is one of the MAJOR design flaws of WAR. They made it too population dependend.
On my server (EU one) on wich I had a guild and played till mid january this year we had a very good population and good community.
Till early november there was plenty of RvR happening. Scenarios popped almost instantly.
Then in december the Open RvR started to happen less and less. Scenarios only popped once in 20 mins to half hour.
And in January (just before I threw the towel in the ring) Open RvR was hardly happening. Even in Tier4. Just some orchestrated keep swapping for gear. And Scenarios hardly popped anymore.
My guild, wich had over 50 members (around 20 active each night) in September/october. There was only me and 3 officers left in January.
Many other guilds on my server suffered the same. And same issues on other servers.
Everyone left unanimous for the same reason: It had become boring (especially PVE was just a joke) and PVP was too few and if it was happening it was just a boring lagging CC zergfest with disconect and delay issues. But most of the time, RAID's were just swapping keeps (without fighting) for the loot *puke*.
Cheers
Absolutely right. I've played plenty of MMORPGs, and WAR is easily my favourite. There may still be nothing that comes close to the subscription levels of WoW (something that completely mystifies me), but WAR is one of the most successful alternatives.
Why don't you haters just go and play whatever MMO you do like? Or do you enjoy hating MMOs more than you enjoy playing any of them?
What constitutes "successfull alternative" for you? If you mean a game you like then can't any other game be a successful alternative as long as the person likes that game?
The reason I ask is since you do quantify it's success. (most)
It's in my post - subscription levels. Of all the thousands of MMOs out there, WAR easily makes the top 10.
WoW is unquestionably successful, but certainly not a game I like. But I've got better things to do than post in the hate threads of the games I don't like.
Got to go - time for some RvR. Don't want to disturb you haters any more.
So far it's hardly more succesful then AoC then. Both had big population starts and then dropped off significantly.
We don't really know where WAR is right now sub wise. I'd personally guess between 250k-300. I see your point though, in essence that sub number would still be considerably high, when compared to past MMO's.
That's only if you really juxtapose it to them on one on one sub numbers though.
Take Daoc for example. A game made by a small company with a few million cash that had a rocky start (content wise, think hib dungeons unitemized, things like that, launch was fine though) started off slowly then after what, 6 months or so grew to a playerbase of 250k people and *kept* that playerbase for a prolongued period.
Then contrast it to WAR, a game created by an "experienced" developer said to have cost "less than 100million" but according to MJ's words had one of the highest budgets a MMO ever had so somewhere between 50 and 100 no doubt. Incredible pre launch hype, a huge surge of initial players the likes of which only AoC had a precedent before this. 750k players bought the game, a number a game like Daoc could only have dreamed of.
And 3 months later that last game is already down to Daoc's prime level of subs.
I know success can be quanitified in many ways, but if I took those 2 examples, I would not call WAR a success story.
Absolutely right. I've played plenty of MMORPGs, and WAR is easily my favourite. There may still be nothing that comes close to the subscription levels of WoW (something that completely mystifies me), but WAR is one of the most successful alternatives.
Why don't you haters just go and play whatever MMO you do like? Or do you enjoy hating MMOs more than you enjoy playing any of them?
You are right that you don't need to have WoW subscription levels to be succesful.
But the current subscription levels in WAR aren't that good either. Not as bad yet as AoC... but not that much better either.
The people that are left playing are still complaining all over the internet about population issues, realm balance issues and sheer lack of Open RvR and the very long scenario queue times.
If you are on either Phoenix Throne (US) or Karak Eight Peaks (EU), then sure you are lucky and still have plenty of action going on. (with all it's still ongoing lag, disconnect and delay issues).
But all the other servers (that are left). Those people aren't so lucky and are basically screwed!
That is one of the MAJOR design flaws of WAR. They made it too population dependend.
On my server (EU one) on wich I had a guild and played till mid january this year we had a very good population and good community.
Till early november there was plenty of RvR happening. Scenarios popped almost instantly.
Then in december the Open RvR started to happen less and less. Scenarios only popped once in 20 mins to half hour.
And in January (just before I threw the towel in the ring) Open RvR was hardly happening. Even in Tier4. Just some orchestrated keep swapping for gear. And Scenarios hardly popped anymore.
My guild, wich had over 50 members (around 20 active each night) in September/october. There was only me and 3 officers left in January.
Many other guilds on my server suffered the same. And same issues on other servers.
Everyone left unanimous for the same reason: It had become boring (especially PVE was just a joke) and PVP was too few and if it was happening it was just a boring lagging CC zergfest with disconect and delay issues. But most of the time, RAID's were just swapping keeps (without fighting) for the loot *puke*.
Cheers
I don't know if you stayed to play at the REALLY low population servers, but the server I play in has RvR VERY often. We have a lot of zone swaps each day, around 6-10 swaps for both sides and usually get around 1-2 fort sieges per night. There have been a lot of downsides with WAR, yes, but there have been a lot of improvements to the game. If you gave up the game at January, then you left at a really bad time. February to March was around the time WAR got most of the RvR improvements and since the domination system, RvR is BOOMING on most servers.
All MMOs have a rough start, WAR just had a slighty more bumpier start. If you like PvP, more then the PvP WoW offers (joke), WAR is good for you. If you prefer good PvE, you might be a little dissappointed. WAR has PvE in it, but it's a PvP game. All this talk of WAR being a total letdown is correct, for some people, but not all of us. I got my inspiration back to WAR since the release of the Slayer class. Atleast it's not like the "I win button" classes we have in the game. If you don't like the game, then it's okay. You don't need to start telling other people why they shouldn't play the game or not. It's childish and I don't see how you can benefit from it.
All MMOs have a rough start, WAR just had a slighty more bumpier start. If you like PvP, more then the PvP WoW offers (joke), WAR is good for you. If you prefer good PvE, you might be a little dissappointed. WAR has PvE in it, but it's a PvP game. All this talk of WAR being a total letdown is correct, for some people, but not all of us. I got my inspiration back to WAR since the release of the Slayer class. Atleast it's not like the "I win button" classes we have in the game. If you don't like the game, then it's okay. You don't need to start telling other people why they shouldn't play the game or not. It's childish and I don't see how you can benefit from it.
I'm going to rant now, and it's not against you Zoldaire. But inspired by similar posts I have read over the months which you conveniently summarized and I highligted in red.
Let's get one thing straight, right off the bat. PvP in WaR is TEH SUCK to use terminology most on these forums will immediately grasp. Let's all stop hiding behind the over-abused "well ofc the PVE sucks, it's a PVP game" cause it's not, or at least not a well made one. The best that can be said to define pvp in this game is calling it WoW: Casual PvP edition.
So why is this a bad PVP game?
FUndamentally, because it does nothing a PVP game should do well.
1) Mega lag in most "large" scale battles. That in and of itself is no good in a Pvp game. Right?
2) Total and complete lack of tactical or strategic elements. It's a bloody button mashing zerg. Just face it.
3) Classes are flat. Yes, yes there's 3 gazillion of them etc (well divided by two if you consider mirrors) but if you stopped to look at skills and abilities you would see that they really mimic each other much more than appearance would let on (gimmicky class mechanics excluded). (Pushbacks, detaunts, etc everyone has them). Additionally abilities for many classes are very uninsipired. Ex. Archmage's 3 main heals are a "Direct heal" "direct + hot" *hot" I mean... come on devs!. Another game we all know released its then main healer with that exact set up... but that was eons ago in gaming history.
4) Combat is muddy. There is no justifying this and it has no excuse. The combat IS muddy. Most f2p games have better combat strcture (animations, synch, lag, targetting, etc) than WAR.
5) WaR is nowhere. Yes yes again if you're on one of two? three? high pop, balanced servers you could run into a battle. But for most peeps (and for months after realase) there simply was NONE. This again is unacceptable for a pvp oriented game.
I'm sure there's more but that should get the flamers going.
For your second point.
There is a very good reason why I would LOVE to see whoever is left in the game leave. I am very tired of crap mmos being released by companies to make a profit a leeching off those consumers that for whatever absurd reason decide to stick with it and give them money for half baked products.
Why?
Because (true for every other product categor but MMOs it seems) if a product sucks it gets pulled. If it underperforms it gets pulled. If it does not reach certain RoIs it gets pulled. In short, if it is not successful it get pulled.
"oh but WaR is successful! it doesn't have to have 10mil subs to be successful!"
Wrong.
Let's stick with the usual accepted figures: (and remember that the game cost "less than 100mil $ but was considered one of the largest investments in MMO history)
1 Mil boxes
750k sold
250k current subscribers (if that)
Ok... let's use those same figures in other scenarios.
A tv show launches and is expected to take 10 million viewers. It does ok at 7.5m the first week. Three weeks down the line it's a 2.5mil. Guess what happens to that TV show? It gets yanked.
A new car launches on the market and sells 100k the first month, 75k the next and 25k the following three. Are they going to make a new version of it the coming year? Probably not.
An electronics company produces 1milion esoteric kitchen appliances. It ships 750k and 500k get returned to the shop. Will you ever see one of those again?
And so on and so forth.
The reason why these games can carry on with such objectively dismal performance is that the MMO business model allows it. They've made the game the high up front costs have been already paid and they've sold the boxes. Now, provided they keep a minimum of turkies... i mean players paying every month (with the added bonus of some other barnyard birds buying the box further down the line) they have more money to be made going on (minus salaries and maint etc) than they have with closing down the whole operation. It's that simple.
So yes, for the love of all that's holy... stop playing this wretched game. If enough crap MMOs die a spectacular fiery death then MAYBE we'll have developers really thinking about what they're producing instead of the half-baked uninispired and badly designed (and unfunished to top it all off) crap that is unfortunately now the norm and that sells anyway.
Rant over.
/signout
It's was mythic's fault.
-------------------------------------------------
Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
-------------------------------------------------