I always refused to do the 40 man raids in WoW. I don't take orders well, there's no adventure to them, you're just expected to give up hours of your life several days a week, to do exactly what you're told and not think.
Well said, I agree. If I had wanted to be a small disposable keg in a huge, impersonal mass of zombified people, then I would have joined the army.
The large raids have died out for this exact reason. People today have no desire to work as a team or a larger community. It's much easier to do your own thing and you don't have to put forth any effort to fit in if you just want to solo.
Those games that required lots of team work and organization always had the best communities too. If you were an asshat or did something stupid on a 72 man raid you were black-listed and had a hell of a time getting invited back on raids. Now you just hop in someone elses group and go "raid" with 10 people lol.
I remember when SWG had 20 man groups and now 10 people is a raid. That truly is EPIC!
Large PvE raids were fun the first few times I did them. After that they did begin to lose their magic.
If you want large scale battles, (I know it's PvP) EVE does have huge fleet battles between alliances often involvinig hundreds of players.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Small content (5-15 players) provides a vastly superior experience in general. Your contribution means a lot more, and you're less reliant on those players not being noobs (put another way, you're less reliant on your Guild Leadership having taken several Business Management classes to know how to get masses of people to work together efficiently :P)
For me, I just want to go in, kick ass, and get loot. I don't want to be held back when many of my 24 teammates are bad players.
I don't mind 25+ player content that's purely one-off. I think it would've been fun to participate in some of the Asheron's Call 1 boss(es?) I heard about which went around destroying towns (?) and required a huge server-wide effort to bring down. One-time live events with limited (or no) rewards attached to them are fine. Just don't make me regularly farm some boss that requires 24+ players; it's a big headache, and mobs of people are incredibly slow at doing anything.
On that note, does Hamidon still exist in City of Heroes? I remember friends doing 50+ player raids on that guy sometimes.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I always refused to do the 40 man raids in WoW. I don't take orders well, there's no adventure to them, you're just expected to give up hours of your life several days a week, to do exactly what you're told and not think.
Well said, I agree. If I had wanted to be a small disposable keg in a huge, impersonal mass of zombified people, then I would have joined the army.
The thing that sucks about any Raid or Dungeon runs is that you most likely are grouping with people that have done the run before. People tell you how things have to be done, so there is no sense of adventure. Thats the problem, I think all dungeons, raids ect. should be limited to how many times you can do them.
I say if you complete them once you can't do them anymore and have all the loot at the boss That way people won't just get other loot and die on purpose to keep getting more loot.
There is an end game mechanic that I wish would just go away. Why would I ever want to spend 4-6 hours having to go where someone is yelling to go, casting exactly what I am supposed to at the right time? Where's the fun in that? Perhaps for the raid leader, or someone running a group it's kind of fun. For the rest of you, welcome to becoming a bot.
I would rather take part in events (call them whatever you want) where small teams can work towards a goal. The public quest in WAR is kind of the right idea. Make it so you need lots of people, but that they actually all need to be in different places doing different things.
Then it kind of goes without saying that PvP games like Shadowbane and I guess now DF have large PvP raid content. I always enjoyed the sieges in SB.
Raid content where you need to do something = good.
Raid content where you are there for just a number = bad.
As a raid leader, let me assure you being a raidmember with a role to play (ie tank, or main healer, or an important side role during a complex encounter like a kiting shaman in BWL back in WoW classic ,Razorgore fight) is far more fun.
Raids get smaller because casual players dont mix well with casual players. The very playstyle of "me first, when I have time, but then I want to play full tilt till I log off, which can happen anytime" doesnt work well for larger teams. Add to that a steady increase in penis envy of those players when someone else gets stuff, and you see why large raids become a nightmare.
Without the mainstream casual crowd, things would work a lot better, but then you d have less players, so I guess the time is just over.
Funny how, though, PvP without limited numbers quickly becomes about huge raids as well, with just the same amount of yelling, ordering around and waiting for people not to screw up. The only difference seems to be, in PvP its fine to be like that right now. Times will change there too, soon enough I suppose. In WAR there is already a lot of hatred flying at pre-made teams, static groups etc. owning the uncoordinated random soloers.
In the end it will get trimmed and shortened as long as people whine, which is as long as it isnt a solo activity, at which point someone reinvents the big raid, and people jump in there for the forgotten feeling of team spirit..... then starting whining all over again.
In the end, you lose a bit every time you gain a bit by cutting down numbers. Thats just the way it goes.
I would rather take part in events (call them whatever you want) where small teams can work towards a goal. The public quest in WAR is kind of the right idea. Make it so you need lots of people, but that they actually all need to be in different places doing different things.
I thought PQs were fun the first couple of times I did them. Then I figured out that you have just as good of a change at winning loot by standing around doing nothing til the end fight, attack the boss once and still win by rolling a high number.
Most of the raids we did in EQ were actually challenging and felt epic. PQ's were our EXP farming spots when we wanted to level someone up or farm armor to decon, nothing really challenging or epic about them.
Remember back in EQ1 where you had 75 man raids? I mean when somebody said we was going to a raid it felt like a massive raid. When WoW came out and we had 40 man raids I was kind of cautious if I should continue the game or not because I was so used to 75 man raids (three raid targets a day 5 days a week 2pm to 11pm) but I figured hey its worth a try. It didnt feel too bad but I still felt like something was missing. Now in 2009 when I am playing WoW we go to a raid I feel like we are in a bastardized version of what a raid should be like I mean cmon you have 25 man and even 10 man raids; this isnt a raid. The difference between a 25 man raid and a 10 man raid still feels like a couple of groups thrown into a locked closet and told to farm purps no real difficulty just more or less an idiot filter determines if you kill the mob or not. Is there any MMO's out now that are active (not talking 11 million active, more like 250k active) that has a decent PvE raiding aspect on a massive scale? If you can answer this please list them in order of how massive the raiding groups and encounters are. Also can the games you list have raids that can be supported by its current server population?
You are nuts. 25 man already feel massive and it is a PAIN to coordinate. I have yet to be in a PUG 25 man raid that takes down emalon because you can get so many people to coordinate. I have done that BARELY in a 10 man because coordinating 10 man is a lot easier.
Smaller raids is the future. Embrace it. Plus, do you really want to schedule and organize 40-75 people? 25 is hard enough.
Why would you even be playing MMOs if you didn't think that 75 man raids was at least a little bit cool? WoW is more like Diablo than it is like an MMO (pretty much is Diablo 3).
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
That's odd because I feel alot more alienated, pushed aside, don't count with all the 10-25 man dungeons than I ever did in EQ or Molten Core raids. I understand why raid leaders ask for stats and armory links before you join a raid nowadays, but It's just my opinion that making encounters hard just for the sake of being hard, was a really dumb move. I mean, I'm sure the elitist jerks enjoy it, because for them, challenge means beating tough content at all costs. The big raids were more fun and alot more relaxing for me though. I didn't have to read ten pages of WoWhead so that I wouldn't get kicked out of a raid and blacklisted. That's never actually happened to me, but it does happen alot, and it has pretty much convinced me that it's not even worth it to try. I've never been to any raids past BWL for this reason alone.
Hey gang, I've been a fan of this site for about mm I'd say a year and this is my first post. I can't remember how I found it but I'm glad I did.
Palebane, I saw your post and couldn't agree with you more. WoW was my first mmo and I gotta tell you this right here said it all for me. In fact, so much so that I'm not sure if I should even continue with the genre any longer because I'm concerned that this attitude is the norm?
Its crazy but I kinda see myself as a recovering wower, is that crazy? Anyways, I finally completley gave up on raiding, ever. I just dont' care to partake in it any longer and i kinda wish the developers would stop putting all their emphasis on it. I don't mind it being there for those who do enjoy it but it should'nt take up all your development time.
Why would you want to sit around and try and gather that many people for a raid? And can you imagine WoW's loot system in a 75 man raid? Obviously the loot would be in larger quantities, but still... I wouldnt want to roll against half the raid for a piece of loot. As for what games have raids.. I only know of WoW.
See, back in EQ, you didn't raid for the items.
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Plus, do you really want to schedule and organize 40-75 people? 25 is hard enough.
Honestly? Hell yes I do We did it for years and although it was a nightmare to organize at times, it made winning all that much sweeter. I'm sorry but if you need 10 people to kill something thats not a raid, thats just a group and a half of people.
Organizing 60-75 people (EQs Raids were flexible, you usually had about 1 or even 2 groups flexibility if you played well that evening, and more than about 70 you lagged anyway) in old EQ1, when you dont need a perfect raid setup, when its not about the individual loot for everyone first, and when you played with those guys and girls for over a year is a fucking BREEZE compared to trying to get 25 casual shitheads with 2 months experience, zero social skills, zero teamplay, one eye on the loot and one on the pretty night elf druid, watching TV and going AFK every hour for random time to work together.
Raiding today is hard because the playerbase is at least 50% utterly teamplay-phobic people who put even their slightest little pissy mood ahead of everyone else, and since the game pretty much forces you to get 23-25 people, no more no less, you also run over a lot more bruised egos on the way.
Nope, I was part of Legacy of Steel (Tigoles Ex-guild) in EQ and I led easily a hundred raids over 6+ years as raidleader or assistant, at the very least main assist, and it wasnt anywhere near the headache of getting a bunch of people to kill Kel Thuzad 25 right now.
Organizing 60-75 people (EQs Raids were flexible, you usually had about 1 or even 2 groups flexibility if you played well that evening, and more than about 70 you lagged anyway) in old EQ1, when you dont need a perfect raid setup, when its not about the individual loot for everyone first, and when you played with those guys and girls for over a year is a fucking BREEZE compared to trying to get 25 casual shitheads with 2 months experience, zero social skills, zero teamplay, one eye on the loot and one on the pretty night elf druid, watching TV and going AFK every hour for random time to work together. Raiding today is hard because the playerbase is at least 50% utterly teamplay-phobic people who put even their slightest little pissy mood ahead of everyone else, and since the game pretty much forces you to get 23-25 people, no more no less, you also run over a lot more bruised egos on the way. Nope, I was part of Legacy of Steel (Tigoles Ex-guild) in EQ and I led easily a hundred raids over 6+ years as raidleader or assistant, at the very least main assist, and it wasnt anywhere near the headache of getting a bunch of people to kill Kel Thuzad 25 right now.
Coming from a similar background i totally agree.
To add my 2 cents i feel its really pointless to even compare EQ and WoWs raiding(have no AC experience sorry) . The community in EQ was much more mature do to the fact online gaming wasnt near as popular of a commodity as it is today. You seem to run into alot of early teens in WoW and some college kids and even adults that truely act like their still kids. While its relevant that WoW downsized raiding as we know it in favor of more dynamic encounters. That in no way makes it easier to coordinate your force of raiders. In WoW if a couple of your raiders dont log in on time its a damn tragedy. In EQ the community was alot more tight knit. If your missing a few people to hit your goal of 54-72 more than likely someone in the guild had some friends in another guild or whatever, and ya worked it out pretty fast. All in all i enjoyed raiding in EQ alot more than i do in WoW. I guess its because to me in WoW raiding seems like a job as to where in EQ it was more of a pasttime as there was just so much more to do once you reached max level. "sigh" I still blame the lack of haste in upgrading zones graphics and the fact they blew their wad all at once when they released Planes of Power , for the downfall in population.
I never liked raids. I'm glad to see them go. Next, there needs to be less use of instancing, and more detailed player interaction with the environment (with consequences that stick both on the environment and the player). Then I might consider resubscribing to an MMO. Otherwise, I'll just stick to TF2 and my stack of golden oldie single player games. :-P
People tend to glorify the memory of events and forget the negative side of it. I remember the 120+ and up to 400+ man raids you had to do in DaoC PvE as glorious, but if you really dig down into it you remember the 4 hours you stood guard in a village with 15 others as a part of the raid preventing the village from sending reinforcement to the central town to protect it from the main raid . . . .
Glorious yes but boring as hell too.
Also people dont seem to realize as you grow older it becomes harder and harder to bond and interact with strangers. They long for the fun of their youth where they could easily bond and get into large groups of people that did things and complain it dont happen anymore. Often blaiming the game and not their own age.
Old EQ players, you are no longer the same persons you where back in the EQ1 days and you are just remembering a rose colored version of what really happened and blame the new games for your loss of youth.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
I'm kinda curious what actually made 75 mans fun in EQ. From the sound of it, people give the impression that they were just simple or outright easy fights which just happened to require 75 people.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sadly the only massive raids left are PvP. Warhammer has some massive PvP raids. I did think that the 40 men raid in WoW were great. I really didn't feel like anything was missing from that transition after EQ. I think 25 is also a fun little raid as well as occasionally a 10 men raid. The issue is they removed the large scale 40 men raids. I wish they would kept all 3. Onyxia was one of my favorite raids. I like the big single raid target, especially dragons. : )
I'm kinda curious what actually made 75 mans fun in EQ. From the sound of it, people give the impression that they were just simple or outright easy fights which just happened to require 75 people.
They are. The majority of fights in EQ and especially in EQ's early days were tank and spank. You'd weave in and out behind a wall to dodge AoEs in some cases and in others just deal with them, but it pretty much boiled down to tank and spank on most of the fights.
The difficulty in EQ's raiding came with managing such a large raid size, the pull itself, clearing the trash (which would take a really long time in itself), and the huge timesinks involved to actually get access to the raid instances in the first place. Preparation to get a guild ready from casuals to raiding could take weeks... months even. For the most part EQ raids were rather boring, but they were the best teamplay content we had back then.
The best example you can get out of WoW of a EQ style raid is Molten Core. This is pretty much how most EQ raids played out except imagine it with even more pulls and faster respawning... oh and less loot too. Also heal rotations...
Now don't get me wrong, I think large raids can work and shouldn't go the way of the dodo just yet, but using a 10 year old game as a basis for how to make a modern large raid isn't the way to go about doing it.
I also don't think being a raid leader is fun at all. A good raid leader will get everyone else having fun. Leading raids can be pretty stressful. It's much more enjoyable being the sheep than having to play the herder and trying to get those sheep to do what you want.
Good luck finding a modern game with that kind of raiding mechanic. EverQuest lost millions of subscribers during the height of popularity precisely because of this kind of game play. That's why they came out with EverQuest 2, to try and grab those 2 million plus who abandoned EverQuest due to it's hardcore focus and bias. Gaming companies just aren't going to go back to 75 man raids, it doesn't pay and it alienates a huge percentage of the gaming population. Hell, 40 man raids in World of Warcraft alienated a lot of players so they ditched it quickly.
I don't think Everquest ever had millions of subscribers did they? I played from the beginning and I swear they had more than any other company but never in the millions. I loved that game btw. If they ever create a classic server I will make it my new MMO for a few years. I would do the same as well for a classic WoW server. The MMOs are always best when still using the devs original design. Next comes players' basically designing the game through forum complaints and the devs caving.
Raids are a waste of developer and content creator time. Small groups are much more fun and require more dynamic tactics.
Small group are a waste of developer and content creator time, solo is much more fun and require more dynamic tactics...
My god, what happened to this f***ing genre? Ten years ago we were looking for something more than singleplayer or lan gameplay... seem that most of you guys are proud with the "devolution" of the genre.
I think theres a place for them but I don't think they should be the bases of an end game because most people don't enjoy them. However I don't see again mmorpg developers don't try to put them in their game for the people who like them, just don't make it so you NEED to do them.
Comments
Well said, I agree. If I had wanted to be a small disposable keg in a huge, impersonal mass of zombified people, then I would have joined the army.
The large raids have died out for this exact reason. People today have no desire to work as a team or a larger community. It's much easier to do your own thing and you don't have to put forth any effort to fit in if you just want to solo.
Those games that required lots of team work and organization always had the best communities too. If you were an asshat or did something stupid on a 72 man raid you were black-listed and had a hell of a time getting invited back on raids. Now you just hop in someone elses group and go "raid" with 10 people lol.
I remember when SWG had 20 man groups and now 10 people is a raid. That truly is EPIC!
Large PvE raids were fun the first few times I did them. After that they did begin to lose their magic.
If you want large scale battles, (I know it's PvP) EVE does have huge fleet battles between alliances often involvinig hundreds of players.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Small content (5-15 players) provides a vastly superior experience in general. Your contribution means a lot more, and you're less reliant on those players not being noobs (put another way, you're less reliant on your Guild Leadership having taken several Business Management classes to know how to get masses of people to work together efficiently :P)
For me, I just want to go in, kick ass, and get loot. I don't want to be held back when many of my 24 teammates are bad players.
I don't mind 25+ player content that's purely one-off. I think it would've been fun to participate in some of the Asheron's Call 1 boss(es?) I heard about which went around destroying towns (?) and required a huge server-wide effort to bring down. One-time live events with limited (or no) rewards attached to them are fine. Just don't make me regularly farm some boss that requires 24+ players; it's a big headache, and mobs of people are incredibly slow at doing anything.
On that note, does Hamidon still exist in City of Heroes? I remember friends doing 50+ player raids on that guy sometimes.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well said, I agree. If I had wanted to be a small disposable keg in a huge, impersonal mass of zombified people, then I would have joined the army.
The thing that sucks about any Raid or Dungeon runs is that you most likely are grouping with people that have done the run before. People tell you how things have to be done, so there is no sense of adventure. Thats the problem, I think all dungeons, raids ect. should be limited to how many times you can do them.
I say if you complete them once you can't do them anymore and have all the loot at the boss That way people won't just get other loot and die on purpose to keep getting more loot.
Yes they are dying and sadly not fast enough.
There is an end game mechanic that I wish would just go away. Why would I ever want to spend 4-6 hours having to go where someone is yelling to go, casting exactly what I am supposed to at the right time? Where's the fun in that? Perhaps for the raid leader, or someone running a group it's kind of fun. For the rest of you, welcome to becoming a bot.
I would rather take part in events (call them whatever you want) where small teams can work towards a goal. The public quest in WAR is kind of the right idea. Make it so you need lots of people, but that they actually all need to be in different places doing different things.
Then it kind of goes without saying that PvP games like Shadowbane and I guess now DF have large PvP raid content. I always enjoyed the sieges in SB.
Raid content where you need to do something = good.
Raid content where you are there for just a number = bad.
As a raid leader, let me assure you being a raidmember with a role to play (ie tank, or main healer, or an important side role during a complex encounter like a kiting shaman in BWL back in WoW classic ,Razorgore fight) is far more fun.
Raids get smaller because casual players dont mix well with casual players. The very playstyle of "me first, when I have time, but then I want to play full tilt till I log off, which can happen anytime" doesnt work well for larger teams. Add to that a steady increase in penis envy of those players when someone else gets stuff, and you see why large raids become a nightmare.
Without the mainstream casual crowd, things would work a lot better, but then you d have less players, so I guess the time is just over.
Funny how, though, PvP without limited numbers quickly becomes about huge raids as well, with just the same amount of yelling, ordering around and waiting for people not to screw up. The only difference seems to be, in PvP its fine to be like that right now. Times will change there too, soon enough I suppose. In WAR there is already a lot of hatred flying at pre-made teams, static groups etc. owning the uncoordinated random soloers.
In the end it will get trimmed and shortened as long as people whine, which is as long as it isnt a solo activity, at which point someone reinvents the big raid, and people jump in there for the forgotten feeling of team spirit..... then starting whining all over again.
In the end, you lose a bit every time you gain a bit by cutting down numbers. Thats just the way it goes.
I thought PQs were fun the first couple of times I did them. Then I figured out that you have just as good of a change at winning loot by standing around doing nothing til the end fight, attack the boss once and still win by rolling a high number.
Most of the raids we did in EQ were actually challenging and felt epic. PQ's were our EXP farming spots when we wanted to level someone up or farm armor to decon, nothing really challenging or epic about them.
Raids are a waste of developer and content creator time. Small groups are much more fun and require more dynamic tactics.
You are nuts. 25 man already feel massive and it is a PAIN to coordinate. I have yet to be in a PUG 25 man raid that takes down emalon because you can get so many people to coordinate. I have done that BARELY in a 10 man because coordinating 10 man is a lot easier.
Smaller raids is the future. Embrace it. Plus, do you really want to schedule and organize 40-75 people? 25 is hard enough.
Why would you even be playing MMOs if you didn't think that 75 man raids was at least a little bit cool? WoW is more like Diablo than it is like an MMO (pretty much is Diablo 3).
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Hey gang, I've been a fan of this site for about mm I'd say a year and this is my first post. I can't remember how I found it but I'm glad I did.
Palebane, I saw your post and couldn't agree with you more. WoW was my first mmo and I gotta tell you this right here said it all for me. In fact, so much so that I'm not sure if I should even continue with the genre any longer because I'm concerned that this attitude is the norm?
Its crazy but I kinda see myself as a recovering wower, is that crazy? Anyways, I finally completley gave up on raiding, ever. I just dont' care to partake in it any longer and i kinda wish the developers would stop putting all their emphasis on it. I don't mind it being there for those who do enjoy it but it should'nt take up all your development time.
See, back in EQ, you didn't raid for the items.
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
Honestly? Hell yes I do
We did it for years and although it was a nightmare to organize at times, it made winning all that much sweeter. I'm sorry but if you need 10 people to kill something thats not a raid, thats just a group and a half of people.
Organizing 60-75 people (EQs Raids were flexible, you usually had about 1 or even 2 groups flexibility if you played well that evening, and more than about 70 you lagged anyway) in old EQ1, when you dont need a perfect raid setup, when its not about the individual loot for everyone first, and when you played with those guys and girls for over a year is a fucking BREEZE compared to trying to get 25 casual shitheads with 2 months experience, zero social skills, zero teamplay, one eye on the loot and one on the pretty night elf druid, watching TV and going AFK every hour for random time to work together.
Raiding today is hard because the playerbase is at least 50% utterly teamplay-phobic people who put even their slightest little pissy mood ahead of everyone else, and since the game pretty much forces you to get 23-25 people, no more no less, you also run over a lot more bruised egos on the way.
Nope, I was part of Legacy of Steel (Tigoles Ex-guild) in EQ and I led easily a hundred raids over 6+ years as raidleader or assistant, at the very least main assist, and it wasnt anywhere near the headache of getting a bunch of people to kill Kel Thuzad 25 right now.
Coming from a similar background i totally agree.
To add my 2 cents i feel its really pointless to even compare EQ and WoWs raiding(have no AC experience sorry) . The community in EQ was much more mature do to the fact online gaming wasnt near as popular of a commodity as it is today. You seem to run into alot of early teens in WoW and some college kids and even adults that truely act like their still kids. While its relevant that WoW downsized raiding as we know it in favor of more dynamic encounters. That in no way makes it easier to coordinate your force of raiders. In WoW if a couple of your raiders dont log in on time its a damn tragedy. In EQ the community was alot more tight knit. If your missing a few people to hit your goal of 54-72 more than likely someone in the guild had some friends in another guild or whatever, and ya worked it out pretty fast. All in all i enjoyed raiding in EQ alot more than i do in WoW. I guess its because to me in WoW raiding seems like a job as to where in EQ it was more of a pasttime as there was just so much more to do once you reached max level. "sigh" I still blame the lack of haste in upgrading zones graphics and the fact they blew their wad all at once when they released Planes of Power , for the downfall in population.
EQ DaoC EQ2 WoW Vanguard AoC Waaagh and beyond
I never liked raids. I'm glad to see them go. Next, there needs to be less use of instancing, and more detailed player interaction with the environment (with consequences that stick both on the environment and the player). Then I might consider resubscribing to an MMO. Otherwise, I'll just stick to TF2 and my stack of golden oldie single player games. :-P
There are some other things at work here:
People tend to glorify the memory of events and forget the negative side of it. I remember the 120+ and up to 400+ man raids you had to do in DaoC PvE as glorious, but if you really dig down into it you remember the 4 hours you stood guard in a village with 15 others as a part of the raid preventing the village from sending reinforcement to the central town to protect it from the main raid . . . .
Glorious yes but boring as hell too.
Also people dont seem to realize as you grow older it becomes harder and harder to bond and interact with strangers. They long for the fun of their youth where they could easily bond and get into large groups of people that did things and complain it dont happen anymore. Often blaiming the game and not their own age.
Old EQ players, you are no longer the same persons you where back in the EQ1 days and you are just remembering a rose colored version of what really happened and blame the new games for your loss of youth.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
I'm kinda curious what actually made 75 mans fun in EQ. From the sound of it, people give the impression that they were just simple or outright easy fights which just happened to require 75 people.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sadly the only massive raids left are PvP. Warhammer has some massive PvP raids. I did think that the 40 men raid in WoW were great. I really didn't feel like anything was missing from that transition after EQ. I think 25 is also a fun little raid as well as occasionally a 10 men raid. The issue is they removed the large scale 40 men raids. I wish they would kept all 3. Onyxia was one of my favorite raids. I like the big single raid target, especially dragons. : )
They are. The majority of fights in EQ and especially in EQ's early days were tank and spank. You'd weave in and out behind a wall to dodge AoEs in some cases and in others just deal with them, but it pretty much boiled down to tank and spank on most of the fights.
The difficulty in EQ's raiding came with managing such a large raid size, the pull itself, clearing the trash (which would take a really long time in itself), and the huge timesinks involved to actually get access to the raid instances in the first place. Preparation to get a guild ready from casuals to raiding could take weeks... months even. For the most part EQ raids were rather boring, but they were the best teamplay content we had back then.
The best example you can get out of WoW of a EQ style raid is Molten Core. This is pretty much how most EQ raids played out except imagine it with even more pulls and faster respawning... oh and less loot too. Also heal rotations...
Now don't get me wrong, I think large raids can work and shouldn't go the way of the dodo just yet, but using a 10 year old game as a basis for how to make a modern large raid isn't the way to go about doing it.
I also don't think being a raid leader is fun at all. A good raid leader will get everyone else having fun. Leading raids can be pretty stressful. It's much more enjoyable being the sheep than having to play the herder and trying to get those sheep to do what you want.
I don't think Everquest ever had millions of subscribers did they? I played from the beginning and I swear they had more than any other company but never in the millions. I loved that game btw. If they ever create a classic server I will make it my new MMO for a few years. I would do the same as well for a classic WoW server. The MMOs are always best when still using the devs original design. Next comes players' basically designing the game through forum complaints and the devs caving.
Small group are a waste of developer and content creator time, solo is much more fun and require more dynamic tactics...
My god, what happened to this f***ing genre? Ten years ago we were looking for something more than singleplayer or lan gameplay... seem that most of you guys are proud with the "devolution" of the genre.
I don't think Everquest ever had millions of subscribers did they?
It's been a while since I've seen the statistics on it, but I believe the maximum they ever reached was somewhere in the 700k mark.
I think theres a place for them but I don't think they should be the bases of an end game because most people don't enjoy them. However I don't see again mmorpg developers don't try to put them in their game for the people who like them, just don't make it so you NEED to do them.
The genre has really gone down a lot... People complaining about 75 man raid , I can't believe it.
No one has never been force to do that. I never did that myself.