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Time - just as unbalancing as rmt
It's been fun times discussing RMT lately, but I wanted to bring up another issue just as important and unbalancing. Time. The anti-rmters think it's ok for someone to have more time to play a mmo than someone else and reap those rewards. Yet, the moment someone spends some real cash to catch up to those who have the time advantage, it is suddenly cheating. IMO, time is just as unbalancing a factor in mmo gameplay as rmt supposedly is. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that rmt is more of a balancing factor than an unbalancing factor.
So, disucss. Is the fact that one person has more time to play than another an unbalancing factor in mmos? If so, should time be regulated to make the game fair for everyone? If the anti-rmters are so concerned about fairness in mmos, shouldn't they be just as concerned about fairness in playtime as they are about rmt?
I think it's important to note that I am not advocating restricting time in mmos. I am just saying that to me any argument against rmt on the basis of "fairness" is completely illogical given the inherent unfairness of the time variable.
Comments
If games allowed RMT. through there own mechanics........
This could be solved by making every player who BOUGHT game time (in form of gold) in-eligible PERMANENTLY for Contests, or certain game Items that only players who never bought game time could obtain.
For instance.
If players decided to buy gold through in game mechanics they could. from other players selling ( game takes x percent off the top)
But when a reward like a special mount, trinket of some kind came out they could not obtain it.
OR ---- this is big. Players who NEVER buy gold are allowed 1 more level they can earn, and keep. So long as they never buy gold. buy gold 1 time. no extra level :-p. The items that can't be used by players who buy gold would be max level +1.
For a casual player 1 extra levle won't matter. having amazing gear matters more. But for a active hardcore player who earns the gear, and has the extra level it will make the difference.
Nothing with stop someone with too much time and not enough money from striking a deal with someone with too much money and not enough time.
I think players should only be able to buy the same items that other players can earn through time. The only advantage they are truly paying for is saving them the time it would take to grind for it. This balances things between the players with no lives that can spend 10 hours a day, and the players who have school, work, and family and can't give that much time.
If I've got the same gear you have, what should it really matter to you how I got it? Worry about yourself, play the game the way that gives you the most enjoyment, and let everyone else do the same thing.
If the 'fancy hat' is only available to purchase that is unfair no matter which way you look at it, if you haven't got the cash (real life money of course) it just isn't going to happen no matter how much time you put into the game.
If 'fancy hat' is available as a quest it's available to everyone, if you don't have the time and want the hat do without or find the time but it's there for the taking by ALL players not just the rich.
If the 'fancy hat' is available by both options, I don't really see a problem unless as I stated in the other rmt thread, that devs/games companies purposefully begin to make desired items so difficult to obtain you'd essentially have 'no choice' than to buy them. (but then in response you'll probably get ''well if you can't afford to play, stop playing'') and that's sad.
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep. ~Navajo Proverb
Remember, in a free to play game the people using RMT are the one's subsidizing your gameplay. The people who are playing for hours on end but not sinking a dime into the game really shouldn't be complaining.
There are disparities in both systems, but the RMT is much more unfair.
I can spend unlimited money in an RMT game. There are only so many hours in a month, which means theres' a cap on p2p games.
The biggest factor is measuring a character. In an RMT game we have to measure a character based on time spent (you STILL hve to spend time in an RMT game) AND money spent.
If I have no money, and you spend money in the game, I WILL NEVER CATCH UP TO YOU. NEVER>
However, P2P games measure a character based on HOURS SPENT. A one hour character is a one hour character. A 40 hour character is a 40 hour character, and a 1,000 hour is a 1,000 hour character.
My 40 hour character will probably be the same as yours in power. Whether I did the 40 hours in a week, and you took 3 months, or vice a versa, at 40 hours are characters will be roughly the same.
When with the RMT characters be the same if I never spend money and you do? Never.
There is also the level cap. Once we reach level cap in the P2p we're even, and we probably spent the same hours.
You can say the P2P model is unfair because I can get cheaper hours than you, by playing more a month. But if you do the math, the difference is MUCH less than what exists in an RMT game.
IN a P2P game, I might pay 10 cents per hour, and you pay 20 cents, but so what? Compare that to someone that spends 300 bucks in one month on an RMT game.
That is correct. There are peasants and lords in the RMT game. Some are willing to be peasants for a free game, and the lords like having the peasants to kick around.
So shut up peasants, and be grateful to the lords that pay your way to play.
There is more than this difference. You fundamentally change the game, and make the effort involved to get the same item worthless.
In other words, I can ONLY do a quest for an item, or grind for an Item. OR I can pay five bucks for it. I have five bucks. This means the quest is now worthless to me, and it would feel stupid doing it when I can pay five bucks. Now I don't want to play.
That is completely different from a game where EVERYONE must work for the item, no exceptions. That's a game I want to play.
This is the hardest part for people to understand:
I"m not worried YOU can buy items, I don't want the game to let ME buy items. Telling me "just don't buy it' doesn't work.
The red statement is not true because everyone is under a budget. Sure, there are some really rich people but they are the far far minority (just like those who play 24/7).
Realisticly speaking, when items get into the hundred of dollar range, it becomes a real choice between buying vs spending the time to grind, for most people.
There is more than this difference. You fundamentally change the game, and make the effort involved to get the same item worthless.
In other words, I can ONLY do a quest for an item, or grind for an Item. OR I can pay five bucks for it. I have five bucks. This means the quest is now worthless to me, and it would feel stupid doing it when I can pay five bucks. Now I don't want to play.
That is completely different from a game where EVERYONE must work for the item, no exceptions. That's a game I want to play.
This is the hardest part for people to understand:
I"m not worried YOU can buy items, I don't want the game to let ME buy items. Telling me "just don't buy it' doesn't work.
So because you have a lack of self control, the option should be taken away from the rest of us?
Why do you assume that it's hard for people to understand when someone has no willpower or self-control? That seems like a bit of an odd statement - I'm sure there are quite a few people in the thread who understand that quite well.
Why do you assume that it's hard for people to understand when someone has no willpower or self-control? That seems like a bit of an odd statement - I'm sure there are quite a few people in the thread who understand that quite well.
It's not about a lack fo self control. It's about making the challenge artificial, not real.
Let's say someone wants a game that is difficult. You COULD play WoW naked, with no gear, and that would make it much more difficult.
So if a person is asking for a more difficult game, would you say they shoujld be satisfied to play WoW naked, which would certainly make it more difficult, and if they do not do that, they lack self control?
It's exactly the same thing.
Yes I COULD group in a game that doesnt' require it, just like I COULD play WoW with no gear to make it harder. But that sounds retarded to me, maybe you would do it and think it was the same has a harder game, but I wouldn't.
Wow has the mmorpg community stooped so low as to favour RMT. any game that has rmt is a game i will not play.
Why do you assume that it's hard for people to understand when someone has no willpower or self-control? That seems like a bit of an odd statement - I'm sure there are quite a few people in the thread who understand that quite well.
It's not about a lack fo self control. It's about making the challenge artificial, not real.
Let's say someone wants a game that is difficult. You COULD play WoW naked, with no gear, and that would make it much more difficult.
So if a person is asking for a more difficult game, would you say they shoujld be satisfied to play WoW naked, which would certainly make it more difficult, and if they do not do that, they lack self control?
It's exactly the same thing.
Yes I COULD group in a game that doesnt' require it, just like I COULD play WoW with no gear to make it harder. But that sounds retarded to me, maybe you would do it and think it was the same has a harder game, but I wouldn't.
The way you're describing it, the only 'real' challenge for you is the choice of whether or not to buy. If you can't handle that challenge, then it is a lack of self-control. There's no difference in the challenge of the quest if you have self-control and choose not to partake of the cash shop. The only difference is your concern about someone else possibly doing something you don't want to do.
Your analogy regarding playing a game with no gear is a red herring that really doesn't have any bearing on the issue - I don't know of any game where no gear is available outside of a cash shop.
I think what he meant in that last statement is that the option should not be available other wise you could make an MMO that plays like a collector card game/ minatures/books. To have the best cards or carchters you have to spend money on the cards or kits and so on and so forth. Soon your credit card is tied to the game and real currency is the game. Then it's gambling.
Personally i think we shouldn't let this hobby fall into the same patterns that all are other hobby store table-top couterparts have become.
Time is something ithat is an unfair advantage to others-- but we shouldn't diesenfranchise someone who has spent their entire summer trying to acheive something by offering it to someone who can buy it for 5-10 bucks.
At the same time- i think the value of the said item or leveled charcter--- whatever ---could sway my opinon. If someone wants to buy my 60 Warlock on EQ2 for $500.00: I spent the time on the charchter, played the game, if the time I spent playing I feel values the monetary selling price no one should be able to tell me I can't sell it.
I think RMT is inevtiable it is how we implement it that will determine if it is a success or not. Don't disenfranchise the player with alot of time-- at the same time don't restrict demand for high level cahracters if people are willing to spend the money. It is up to the player to decide if the time he/she spent gettting those items has monetary value.
I think a good rule is player-player RMT. That way you dont have the developer disenfranching hard work and you would get real value prices for the player with time. The only problem with this is you would have to regulate it from farmers which is the biggest problem in MMO's today.
I dont offer a solution just 2 cents.
That is correct. There are peasants and lords in the RMT game. Some are willing to be peasants for a free game, and the lords like having the peasants to kick around.
So shut up peasants, and be grateful to the lords that pay your way to play.
That's pretty much it, and it's one reason why I greatly prefer subscription-based games. The other reason is because the subscription fee in and of itself is a pretty effective "idiot filter".
Bottom line is that the game has to make money to survive, one way or the other.
Indeed, what do you think gold selling is all about?
Why do you assume that it's hard for people to understand when someone has no willpower or self-control? That seems like a bit of an odd statement - I'm sure there are quite a few people in the thread who understand that quite well.
It's not about a lack fo self control. It's about making the challenge artificial, not real.
Let's say someone wants a game that is difficult. You COULD play WoW naked, with no gear, and that would make it much more difficult.
So if a person is asking for a more difficult game, would you say they shoujld be satisfied to play WoW naked, which would certainly make it more difficult, and if they do not do that, they lack self control?
It's exactly the same thing.
Yes I COULD group in a game that doesnt' require it, just like I COULD play WoW with no gear to make it harder. But that sounds retarded to me, maybe you would do it and think it was the same has a harder game, but I wouldn't.
So, when you're playing a game that has Easy, Medium, Hard, and God-Help-Me-This-Is-Impossible settings, do you only pick the Easy setting, just because it is there?
I recall playing Fable in the arena, and getting bonuses for going in with no armor. Funny, having that option never upset me.
I don't get your sentiment on this. If i work 40 hours a week doing construction work and decide to work overtime for another 20 hours with overpay..i should get more money than somebody only able to put in 40 hours because i worked harder. Thats the natural order of things and it is quite fair. The guy that cannot put in the extra hours have no reason to complain he doesn't get paid as much since he doesn't put in the hours.
RMT is a whole other issue that can't be compared with time. Time for most of us is free..money isn't. A gamer that can't put in the hours to get better gear than those that can shouldn't be able to obtain the same level of gear period.
I'm vehmently against RMT and i have absolutely no desire of evening the playingfield when it comes to gear. I'm a stout believer in everybody earning what they are willing or able to work for. If that creates an unbalance from rich to poor then i am fine with that. It is how it should be. This idea that we all should be equal is nonsense. Society doesn't work like that and neither should virtual worlds in MMORPGS with their own economy. That is what i consider fair.
How can you justify somebody playing 10 hours a month able to obtain the same gear as somebody able to play 60 hours?
I don't get your sentiment on this. I fi work 40 hours a week doing construction work and decide to work overtime for another 20 hours with overpay..i should get more money than somebody only able to put in 40 hours because i worked harder. Thats the natural order of things and it is quite fair. The guy that cannot put in the extra hours have no reason to complain he doesn't get paid as much since he doesn't put in the hours.
RMT is a whole other issue that can't be compared with time. Time for most of us is free..money isn't. A gamer that can't put in the hours to get better gear than those that can shouldn't be able to obtain the same level of gear period.
I'm vehmently against RMT and i have absolutely no desire of evening the playingfield when it comes to gear. I'm a stout believer in everybody earning what they are willing or able to work for. If that creates an unbalance from rich to poor then i am fine with that. It is how it should be
the unbalance it creates is not from rich to poor, it is from those who have lives outside of gaming and those who do not.
Fact: More people play F2P games with RMT than play subscriptions games.
I don't get your sentiment on this. If my mage walks past your mage, and we both have the same sweet staff, how does it hurt you if you spent 10 hours getting it, and I spent 2 dollars?
I don't get your sentiment on this. I fi work 40 hours a week doing construction work and decide to work overtime for another 20 hours with overpay..i should get more money than somebody only able to put in 40 hours because i worked harder. Thats the natural order of things and it is quite fair. The guy that cannot put in the extra hours have no reason to complain he doesn't get paid as much since he doesn't put in the hours.
RMT is a whole other issue that can't be compared with time. Time for most of us is free..money isn't. A gamer that can't put in the hours to get better gear than those that can shouldn't be able to obtain the same level of gear period.
I'm vehmently against RMT and i have absolutely no desire of evening the playingfield when it comes to gear. I'm a stout believer in everybody earning what they are willing or able to work for. If that creates an unbalance from rich to poor then i am fine with that. It is how it should be
the unbalance it creates is not from rich to poor, it is from those who have lives outside of gaming and those who do not.
Fact: More people play F2P games with RMT than play subscriptions games.
I don't get your sentiment on this. If my mage walks past your mage, and we both have the same sweet staff, how does it hurt you if you spent 10 hours getting it, and I spent 2 dollars?
You don't get the sentiment because you want everybody to be on an even playing field no matter how much time spent in the game. Then what do you need loot for. sounds like you need a game where loot isn't a factor since you want it to be easily obtainable...then why have it at all?. If characters doesn't use items then everybody is equal..sounds like a better solution for you if you ask me
I believe in working for what you get IN the game.
I don't get your sentiment on this. If i work 40 hours a week doing construction work and decide to work overtime for another 20 hours with overpay..i should get more money than somebody only able to put in 40 hours because i worked harder. Thats the natural order of things and it is quite fair. The guy that cannot put in the extra hours have no reason to complain he doesn't get paid as much since he doesn't put in the hours.
RMT is a whole other issue that can't be compared with time. Time for most of us is free..money isn't. A gamer that can't put in the hours to get better gear than those that can shouldn't be able to obtain the same level of gear period.
I'm vehmently against RMT and i have absolutely no desire of evening the playingfield when it comes to gear. I'm a stout believer in everybody earning what they are willing or able to work for. If that creates an unbalance from rich to poor then i am fine with that. It is how it should be. This idea that we all should be equal is nonsense. Society doesn't work like that and neither should virtual worlds in MMORPGS with their own economy
Although I don't necessarily agree with the OP's premise, your counterargument seems to be flawed and contradictory. If you don't think people necessarily need to be equal, then the premise of your last paragraph turns on its head a bit. People don't always get ahead in real life simply because of hard work, and they don't always obtain fancy belongings through hard work. If you want a game to work like a real society, then that's something you'll probably find more in RMT games than P2P games, regardless of how much one might individually prefer either paradigm.
I don't get your sentiment on this. I fi work 40 hours a week doing construction work and decide to work overtime for another 20 hours with overpay..i should get more money than somebody only able to put in 40 hours because i worked harder. Thats the natural order of things and it is quite fair. The guy that cannot put in the extra hours have no reason to complain he doesn't get paid as much since he doesn't put in the hours.
RMT is a whole other issue that can't be compared with time. Time for most of us is free..money isn't. A gamer that can't put in the hours to get better gear than those that can shouldn't be able to obtain the same level of gear period.
I'm vehmently against RMT and i have absolutely no desire of evening the playingfield when it comes to gear. I'm a stout believer in everybody earning what they are willing or able to work for. If that creates an unbalance from rich to poor then i am fine with that. It is how it should be
the unbalance it creates is not from rich to poor, it is from those who have lives outside of gaming and those who do not.
Fact: More people play F2P games with RMT than play subscriptions games.
I don't get your sentiment on this. If my mage walks past your mage, and we both have the same sweet staff, how does it hurt you if you spent 10 hours getting it, and I spent 2 dollars?
You don't get the sentiment because you want everybody to be on an even playing field no matter how much time spent in the game. Then what do you need loot for. sounds like you need a game where loot isn't a factor since you want it to be easily obtainable...then why have it at all?. If characters doesn't use items then everybody is equal..sounds like a better solution for you if you ask me
I believe in working for what you get IN the game.
I believe in letting YOU play the game that suits you best, and letting all others do the same. Yeah, I'm really strange that way with all of that personal choice and freedom and stuff.
I don't get your sentiment on this. If i work 40 hours a week doing construction work and decide to work overtime for another 20 hours with overpay..i should get more money than somebody only able to put in 40 hours because i worked harder. Thats the natural order of things and it is quite fair. The guy that cannot put in the extra hours have no reason to complain he doesn't get paid as much since he doesn't put in the hours.
RMT is a whole other issue that can't be compared with time. Time for most of us is free..money isn't. A gamer that can't put in the hours to get better gear than those that can shouldn't be able to obtain the same level of gear period.
I'm vehmently against RMT and i have absolutely no desire of evening the playingfield when it comes to gear. I'm a stout believer in everybody earning what they are willing or able to work for. If that creates an unbalance from rich to poor then i am fine with that. It is how it should be. This idea that we all should be equal is nonsense. Society doesn't work like that and neither should virtual worlds in MMORPGS with their own economy
Although I don't necessarily agree with the OP's premise, your counterargument seems to be flawed and contradictory. If you don't think people necessarily need to be equal, then the premise of your last paragraph turns on its head a bit. People don't always get ahead in real life simply because of hard work, and they don't always obtain fancy belongings through hard work. If you want a game to work like a real society, then that's something you'll probably find more in RMT games than P2P games, regardless of how much one might individually prefer either paradigm.
You are right they don't. See my example of two construction workers doing the same thing ..this would be equal to playing the same game and putting in different hours. Somebody born into richness is not part of the equation..i would equal that as being given a game account with a fully geared character. A Doctor earning more than a construction worker has put in more work in getting his education than what a blue collar construction worker has. I don't see any flaws in my statement. I could have used any profession. The premise of the example is that both work in the same job at the same place. Just as two gamers are playing the same game with the same opportunities. They are both gamers..they are both playing the same game..see the comparison?
Although you may not want a game to work the same way as society that is inevitable when you have an ingame economy and items obtained through work. People will deal and trade as they do in real life albeit with a few freedoms since virtual goods doesn't have the same value.
The reason you see more RMT games than P2P is because they do not have the same amount of content nor the same costs to make. This makes for a good profit vs investment. I could make a F2P RMT game myself..infact there is one on Facebook right now called Texas Hold'em. It only deals in virtual money but you can buy them with rl money. How many man hours and money do you think a texas hold'em game took to make? Yet they have 12.387.576 users..I'm willing to bet that with over 12 million users you will see somebody buying virtual money to keep playing. F2P RMT games works much the same way. Less content and production costs vs profit
Why do you assume that it's hard for people to understand when someone has no willpower or self-control? That seems like a bit of an odd statement - I'm sure there are quite a few people in the thread who understand that quite well.
It's not about a lack fo self control. It's about making the challenge artificial, not real.
Let's say someone wants a game that is difficult. You COULD play WoW naked, with no gear, and that would make it much more difficult.
So if a person is asking for a more difficult game, would you say they shoujld be satisfied to play WoW naked, which would certainly make it more difficult, and if they do not do that, they lack self control?
It's exactly the same thing.
Yes I COULD group in a game that doesnt' require it, just like I COULD play WoW with no gear to make it harder. But that sounds retarded to me, maybe you would do it and think it was the same has a harder game, but I wouldn't.
So, when you're playing a game that has Easy, Medium, Hard, and God-Help-Me-This-Is-Impossible settings, do you only pick the Easy setting, just because it is there?
I recall playing Fable in the arena, and getting bonuses for going in with no armor. Funny, having that option never upset me.
Perhaps this is an example you can understand.
From my perspective, the "easy" mode is always on. It CANNOT be turned off. If there was a different server to go to with different rules, that would be turning off the easy mode.
What you are saying, is I should play Fable on Easy mode, but then do stupid things to gimp myself so it will be like Hard mode.