Yes... but no. Yes, differences in time to play are un-balancing BUT there is a difference between imbalance due to the circumstances of life, and imbalance created, fostered and encouraged by the company that runs the game.
What is the balance that you desire, and what would it benefit the maker of the game to have that particular kind of balance? I can only hypothesize as to what the balance you're looking for is, but if I do understand it correctly, there are a lot of games that are quite successful and allow for what you are calling an imbalance.
Do people really want a "level playing field" in a game, and if so, why? Is it just an idealistic sense of egalitarianism, or are they looking for something they don't feel they're getting out of real life?
I'd edited my original post so maybe you didn't see it, but I added this: For example, in a race, one runner is faster than the other. That doesn't mean its ok for the race organizer to sell head-starts.
I'm not looking for a universal playing field, but the game organizer/provider should offer a level playing field for the players. Any imbalance that comes after that from the players own circumstances is just life.
But this is not a race, and there are no winners.
How about a Golf analogy? We're just factoring in player handicaps!
In my analogy the race equates competition. And there are winners. There are goals and rewards for completing those goals. Thats winning. To take it to golf, what if the pga said, sold stroke erasers?
Yes... but no. Yes, differences in time to play are un-balancing BUT there is a difference between imbalance due to the circumstances of life, and imbalance created, fostered and encouraged by the company that runs the game.
What is the balance that you desire, and what would it benefit the maker of the game to have that particular kind of balance? I can only hypothesize as to what the balance you're looking for is, but if I do understand it correctly, there are a lot of games that are quite successful and allow for what you are calling an imbalance.
Do people really want a "level playing field" in a game, and if so, why? Is it just an idealistic sense of egalitarianism, or are they looking for something they don't feel they're getting out of real life?
I'd edited my original post so maybe you didn't see it, but I added this: For example, in a race, one runner is faster than the other. That doesn't mean its ok for the race organizer to sell head-starts.
I'm not looking for a universal playing field, but the game organizer/provider should offer a level playing field for the players. Any imbalance that comes after that from the players own circumstances is just life.
But this is not a race, and there are no winners.
How about a Golf analogy? We're just factoring in player handicaps!
In my analogy the race equates competition. And there are winners. There are goals and rewards for completing those goals. Thats winning. To take it to golf, what if the pga said, sold stroke erasers?
Then when I played, I would still know how many strokes it actually took me to finish, so it wouldn't matter.
RMT is a whole other issue that can't be compared with time. Time for most of us is free..money isn't. A gamer that can't put in the hours to get better gear than those that can shouldn't be able to obtain the same level of gear period.
I don't know what world you live in, but my time is far more valuable then money. Obviously you take your time for granted, you must have an abundance of free time, lucky you.
I have as much time as the next guy. I just choose to spend my recreational time in games. When I'm off work my time does not = money
This is off topic and seriously you guys wasted a whole page on RMT debate when the topic is about TIME and not RMT.
Anyways, the average American spends 9 hours working (+lunch), 8 hours sleeping, 1 hour commute to work and back, 1 hour dinner (prep/eating/cleanup), 1 hour hygiene, 1 hour of unwind time, that leaves 4 hours in the day, which you can choose to do something productive such as errands/chores/homework or recreations like TV and games. I could use 4 more hours in my day and I bet many a working man would agree with me.
The average american is not a gamer and certainly not a MMORPG gamer. An MMORPG gamer for the most part knows that time is a factor when it comes to advancing. They know it's not a FPS you can just load up and play on par with everybody else. Their available time is a determining factor if they will be playing a MMORPG or not. My time goes as this 12 hour shifts 3 days a week leaving me with 4 off days. Even if i were working 9 hours i don't spend 1 hour showering unless some of that time also equals playtime. As for chores some of us have kids in their teens that can do that. No i doubt you can categorize an average american gamer the way you have. Not to mention americans are not the only gamers in the world. Some countries people work less hours ..i know Denmark the average working hours are 37 a week..that's just one country out of many.
If you're talking RMT via an official Item Mall, that's totally cool. XP boosts etc are fine, aslong as it's not possible to stack an unlimited amount of them (Which is how Shanda killed Legend of Mir in China).
If you're talking RMT as in using unofficial methods, gold farming and power leveling websites, then yeah, that is obviously "cheating". Even though lots of us use those gold selling sites (me included ) it is cheating in a way, gaining an unfair advantage.
Anything that isn't supported officially, is unfair. (And you clever shits, don't go mincing my words by saying "wahwah so Ventrillo is unfair!!??!1111", I can't be bothered with oen of them silly arguments).
_________ Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
Yes... but no. Yes, differences in time to play are un-balancing BUT there is a difference between imbalance due to the circumstances of life, and imbalance created, fostered and encouraged by the company that runs the game.
What is the balance that you desire, and what would it benefit the maker of the game to have that particular kind of balance? I can only hypothesize as to what the balance you're looking for is, but if I do understand it correctly, there are a lot of games that are quite successful and allow for what you are calling an imbalance.
Do people really want a "level playing field" in a game, and if so, why? Is it just an idealistic sense of egalitarianism, or are they looking for something they don't feel they're getting out of real life?
I'd edited my original post so maybe you didn't see it, but I added this: For example, in a race, one runner is faster than the other. That doesn't mean its ok for the race organizer to sell head-starts.
I'm not looking for a universal playing field, but the game organizer/provider should offer a level playing field for the players. Any imbalance that comes after that from the players own circumstances is just life.
But this is not a race, and there are no winners.
How about a Golf analogy? We're just factoring in player handicaps!
In my analogy the race equates competition. And there are winners. There are goals and rewards for completing those goals. Thats winning. To take it to golf, what if the pga said, sold stroke erasers?
Then when I played, I would still know how many strokes it actually took me to finish, so it wouldn't matter.
It may not matter to you, but many people would feel it devalued their effort. You bust your hump over x amount of time, increased your skill through trial an error in a learning process and you have to share the reward with a guy who showed up at the last minute and bought the reward. Part of the value of the reward is that it represents what you did to get it. Plus since more than likely the process of rmt is private between the player and the producer, it devalues your accomplishment even further because now every players' accomplishment must be viewed as suspect.
You can't argue away that for a lot of players a big part of the MMO experience is the process. And that is where the time imbalance doesn't equate with the rmt imbalance. The time imbalance doesn't devalue someone elses accomplishments.
There will always be people wanting something for nothing..quite a lot of people. If they can buy their way to skip the people in line they will gladly do so. There is no arguing with such a person because they will never see your point. They want what they want..and sooner rather than later. If money gives them those means then they are happy.
Yes... but no. Yes, differences in time to play are un-balancing BUT there is a difference between imbalance due to the circumstances of life, and imbalance created, fostered and encouraged by the company that runs the game.
What is the balance that you desire, and what would it benefit the maker of the game to have that particular kind of balance? I can only hypothesize as to what the balance you're looking for is, but if I do understand it correctly, there are a lot of games that are quite successful and allow for what you are calling an imbalance.
Do people really want a "level playing field" in a game, and if so, why? Is it just an idealistic sense of egalitarianism, or are they looking for something they don't feel they're getting out of real life?
I'd edited my original post so maybe you didn't see it, but I added this: For example, in a race, one runner is faster than the other. That doesn't mean its ok for the race organizer to sell head-starts.
I'm not looking for a universal playing field, but the game organizer/provider should offer a level playing field for the players. Any imbalance that comes after that from the players own circumstances is just life.
But this is not a race, and there are no winners.
How about a Golf analogy? We're just factoring in player handicaps!
In my analogy the race equates competition. And there are winners. There are goals and rewards for completing those goals. Thats winning. To take it to golf, what if the pga said, sold stroke erasers?
Then when I played, I would still know how many strokes it actually took me to finish, so it wouldn't matter.
It may not matter to you, but many people would feel it devalued their effort. You bust your hump over x amount of time, increased your skill through trial an error in a learning process and you have to share the reward with a guy who showed up at the last minute and bought the reward. Part of the value of the reward is that it represents what you did to get it. Plus since more than likely the process of rmt is private between the player and the producer, it devalues your accomplishment even further because now every players' accomplishment must be viewed as suspect.
You can't argue away that for a lot of players a big part of the MMO experience is the process. And that is where the time imbalance doesn't equate with the rmt imbalance. The time imbalance doesn't devalue someone elses accomplishments.
Just like you can't argue away that for a lot of players a big part of the MMO experience is NOT in the process, hence the gold buying, character buying, and power leveling, not to mention the item malls. And as more people play f2p mmo's than p2p, where would you say the majority is?
There will always be people wanting something for nothing..quite a lot of people. If they can buy their way to skip the people in line they will gladly do so. There is no arguing with such a person because they will never see your point. They want what they want..and sooner rather than later. If money gives them those means then they are happy.
Ya but I don't even begrudge them that. Sometimes I want something for nothing too. (like not doing any work but still getting a paycheck!) But in a game, I play for fun, sharing the playing field with people like that make it less fun for me.
Upshot is, I'm not against rmt, I just wouldn't play a game with rmt.
Nothing with stop someone with too much time and not enough money from striking a deal with someone with too much money and not enough time.
Which is why communism was always just a plain dumb idea.
You can't stop trade, it will always happen. Once you have trading you have some kind of market (free or otherwise). Once this stuff is out of the government control you no longer have full on communism. Once this sort of stuff goes out of the developers control you have strange inputs into the pretend system,
All these arguments about time and RMT etc they just prove one thing: MMORPGs are mostly about a power trip within people's heads. People never miss those levels they paid someone else to do because they were not that fun to begin with. Add on the fact that alot of level based MMORPG basically give a neutered class that has to mature rather than a mature but later on customizable class and you have no reason to waste your time.
Just look at the paradox that is LOTRO they have a ton of things meant to extend play, like deeds. These deeds can go by fast if you have some quests and instances that are involve killing the right thing. Yet people still go out and grind them even though its not fun. They actually gated the latest content update with a cock-block rep grind. I mean they actually force you to go through pain to see something cool. Add in the fact that you cannot even customize your class to s significant degree until you are about 2/3 of the way through the levels AND have grinded out a bunch of class deeds. I still can't customize my Warden the way I want, not because of level but because i have to use each of 3 skills about 300 times more and there are daily limits that stop progress on that.
There is nothing wrong with something taking time to do. But if that is the only thing going for it that is a problem. And if there is reward at the end they want of course people will pay for it.
RMT item mall type game are merely preying upon this idea. Rather than making a fun game they are charging you for the courtesy of not doing a bunch of long ass boring stuff to go on the same old power trip that is normally gated with time and inconvience. If a game was fun enough to level in and classes started off fairly mature to begin with rather needing to wait to level frigging 45 out of 50 to get your first AOE. Then no one would pay for a leveling service. But since they are this way people do pay.
It is as simple as that. Item malls are basically a complete sham. The only reason they even exist at all is because of the dumbass time sink mechanics. It is sad that people want to keep the very thing that is the root cause of the problem and treat the symptom by banning or otherwise mitigating the people who try to get aroudn them. Yeah most gold sellers are scum or in some cases flat out crooks. But we are not talking about drug dealers. The games themselves are flawed.
The idea of an item mall would be completely retarded if we started from scratch and did not have the history of so many MMORPGs that essentially only matured at "end game" or made leveling a chore or whatever else. The only reason the idea of an item mall is even tolerated is that the alternative of an EQ style grind or raid grind is the alternative and is equally distasteful to many people.
I mean seriously think about it, past MMO are so screwed up that people will pay extra money for pretend stuff that is a clear and obvious scam just ot avoid that crap. It is completely nuts.
I don't mind RMT for artistic work product like new costume packs. But item malls are such an obvious case of how the industry itself has fostered what basically amounts to insanity that it is rather staggering.
MMORPGs are not games. They are basically skinner boxes. And now people are starting to see what happens with this sort of thing. You start getting a market and trade because people want the power trip
Its not just time but skill as well. If you flat out suck you can throw all the time you want at an MMO and not get anywhere. In WOW for instance I played a warlock and I refused to change my tactics with the times, got left behind in the meters and was booted from my raiding guild. If you suck your out of luck.
RMT is different. you pay=you get. No effort, no guts just entering a credit card number.
You can make up for lack of time with skill. But once RMT enters the equation whoever has the most money wins, there is no counter. And even if you say screw it I dont need to compete or I'm so good I can keep up without buying my gear the more insidious developers will release SOMETHING that catches your fancy and leaves you no choice but to fork over some cash, whether its for a special pet, a unique emote or a mega house.
Yes... but no. Yes, differences in time to play are un-balancing BUT there is a difference between imbalance due to the circumstances of life, and imbalance created, fostered and encouraged by the company that runs the game.
What is the balance that you desire, and what would it benefit the maker of the game to have that particular kind of balance? I can only hypothesize as to what the balance you're looking for is, but if I do understand it correctly, there are a lot of games that are quite successful and allow for what you are calling an imbalance.
Do people really want a "level playing field" in a game, and if so, why? Is it just an idealistic sense of egalitarianism, or are they looking for something they don't feel they're getting out of real life?
I'd edited my original post so maybe you didn't see it, but I added this: For example, in a race, one runner is faster than the other. That doesn't mean its ok for the race organizer to sell head-starts.
I'm not looking for a universal playing field, but the game organizer/provider should offer a level playing field for the players. Any imbalance that comes after that from the players own circumstances is just life.
But this is not a race, and there are no winners.
How about a Golf analogy? We're just factoring in player handicaps!
In my analogy the race equates competition. And there are winners. There are goals and rewards for completing those goals. Thats winning. To take it to golf, what if the pga said, sold stroke erasers?
Then when I played, I would still know how many strokes it actually took me to finish, so it wouldn't matter.
It may not matter to you, but many people would feel it devalued their effort. You bust your hump over x amount of time, increased your skill through trial an error in a learning process and you have to share the reward with a guy who showed up at the last minute and bought the reward. Part of the value of the reward is that it represents what you did to get it. Plus since more than likely the process of rmt is private between the player and the producer, it devalues your accomplishment even further because now every players' accomplishment must be viewed as suspect.
You can't argue away that for a lot of players a big part of the MMO experience is the process. And that is where the time imbalance doesn't equate with the rmt imbalance. The time imbalance doesn't devalue someone elses accomplishments.
Just like you can't argue away that for a lot of players a big part of the MMO experience is NOT in the process, hence the gold buying, character buying, and power leveling, not to mention the item malls. And as more people play f2p mmo's than p2p, where would you say the majority is?
You can't compare people who break the rules to the game itself sanctioning it. It takes something away. Some people miss that something being taken away, some don't. The majority doesn't matter, the point is something is taken away by it.
Also I never argued that a lot of people enjoy skipping the process, my point is that there is an impact on a game with rmt. That some people like or dislike the impact is obvious.
And I'll grant you based merely on the size of the gold-selling, etc... industry that the majority do enjoy skipping the process and go straight to the reward, but then I'll ask you, of that group how many are open about it?
If you happened to say play pool with your friends instead...and some of them were a lot better than you because they had more time to play...is that fair? Would you feel entitled to be able to spend real money to buy advantages to compete with them? Same with any sport where the more you play can equal better performance.
I've always seen the real issue as overly competitive people with money to throw around trying to buy an edge. To me it defeats the purpose. I'm playing these games to have fun doing so, not compete with everyone else in an epeen contest.
If the 'fancy hat' is only available to purchase that is unfair no matter which way you look at it, if you haven't got the cash (real life money of course) it just isn't going to happen no matter how much time you put into the game. If 'fancy hat' is available as a quest it's available to everyone, if you don't have the time and want the hat do without or find the time but it's there for the taking by ALL players not just the rich. If the 'fancy hat' is available by both options, I don't really see a problem unless as I stated in the other rmt thread, that devs/games companies purposefully begin to make desired items so difficult to obtain you'd essentially have 'no choice' than to buy them. (but then in response you'll probably get ''well if you can't afford to play, stop playing'') and that's sad.
It's unfortunate that item mall games have ended up in this discussion. Although technically an item mall game is rmt, I don't view it in the same context. I should have been more clear by saying I meant player to player trade, not company to player (or for that matter gold farmer to player).
I do think the most humerous argument against rmt is that it "devalues" someone else's achievements. There is no logic in that argument, it is purely emotional, not to mention just a slight bit strange. If you killed a super hard to kill mob and got a piece of fat loot, someone buying the same gear doesn't devalue your achievement in any way shape or form. I particularly like the guy who said that if you made silver items for bought items and gold items for earned items, that the demand would drop dramatically. This guy just doesn't get it. He thinks that other people actually give a darn about your achievements in game. No one cares. They're all playing their own game, and when they ooh and ahh at your gear it's not because they think you're cool it's because they are simply envious of your gear for selfish reasons.
To sum it up, some of you guys just gotta get over yourself. We're talking mmos here, GAMES. Games shouldn't boost your self-confidence or "devalue" your "work". They are meant for entertainment, and people are always willing to pay for more entertainment. Sure, buying a max level character with fat gear may ruin the way you want to play, but if they only want to pvp or otherwise play with their high level friend, there is a tangible entertainment value to the purchase. It's not stupid or frivilous, it actually provides value to the customer, and provides no less value then wasting your money on nothing at the bar or going out to see a movie. In addition, these people don't care in the slightest about "achievement" and "skill". They just wanna kill masses of mobs with their friends, see pretty colors, and pwn some nubs. You must understand how the "other side" thinks before you sit here and call them cheaters. They will never see the game the same way you do. Not because they're stupid or have low morals, but because they simply see the game in an entirely different light than you do. What makes you right and them wrong?
MMIOs are games, it's that simple. If you happened to say play pool with your friends instead...and some of them were a lot better than you because they had more time to play...is that fair? Would you feel entitled to be able to spend real money to buy advantages to compete with them? Same with any sport where the more you play can equal better performance. I've always seen the real issue as overly competitive people with money to throw around trying to buy an edge. To me it defeats the purpose. I'm playing these games to have fun doing so, not compete with everyone else in an epeen contest.
Though I agree with the sentiment somewhat, I'm not sure this really stacks up all that well in real life. In most sports, you can buy really good equipment that can give you an edge over someone using outdated crap. Golf is a great example. Though my set of brand new top line clubs may not make up for hundreds of hours of practice by someone else, it definitely gives me an edge over the dude playing with clubs from the 80's.
It's unfortunate that item mall games have ended up in this discussion. Although technically an item mall game is rmt, I don't view it in the same context. I should have been more clear by saying I meant player to player trade, not company to player (or for that matter gold farmer to player).
I do think the most humerous argument against rmt is that it "devalues" someone else's achievements. There is no logic in that argument, it is purely emotional, not to mention just a slight bit strange. If you killed a super hard to kill mob and got a piece of fat loot, someone buying the same gear doesn't devalue your achievement in any way shape or form. I particularly like the guy who said that if you made silver items for bought items and gold items for earned items, that the demand would drop dramatically. This guy just doesn't get it. He thinks that other people actually give a darn about your achievements in game. No one cares. They're all playing their own game, and when they ooh and ahh at your gear it's not because they think you're cool it's because they are simply envious of your gear for selfish reasons.
To sum it up, some of you guys just gotta get over yourself. We're talking mmos here, GAMES. Games shouldn't boost your self-confidence or "devalue" your "work". They are meant for entertainment, and people are always willing to pay for more entertainment. Sure, buying a max level character with fat gear may ruin the way you want to play, but if they only want to pvp or otherwise play with their high level friend, there is a tangible entertainment value to the purchase. It's not stupid or frivilous, it actually provides value to the customer, and provides no less value then wasting your money on nothing at the bar or going out to see a movie. In addition, these people don't care in the slightest about "achievement" and "skill". They just wanna kill masses of mobs with their friends, see pretty colors, and pwn some nubs. You must understand how the "other side" thinks before you sit here and call them cheaters. They will never see the game the same way you do. Not because they're stupid or have low morals, but because they simply see the game in an entirely different light than you do. What makes you right and them wrong?
Originally posted by andmiller Though I agree with the sentiment somewhat, I'm not sure this rally stacks up all that well in real life. In most sports, you can buy really good equipment that can give you an edge over someone using outdated crap. Golf is a great example. Though my set of brand new top line clubs may not make up for hundreds of hours of practice by someone else, it definitely gives me an edge over the dude playing with clubs from the 80's.
Just to clarify though, that is more equivalent to the advantage acquired through buying a better computer and connection - which already exists and is unavoidable. My example would be someone paying the Golf Course an extra $100 a hole and getting 2 free strokes which is how I would characterize RMT.
Originally posted by andmiller Though I agree with the sentiment somewhat, I'm not sure this rally stacks up all that well in real life. In most sports, you can buy really good equipment that can give you an edge over someone using outdated crap. Golf is a great example. Though my set of brand new top line clubs may not make up for hundreds of hours of practice by someone else, it definitely gives me an edge over the dude playing with clubs from the 80's.
Just to clarify though, that is more equivalent to the advantage acquired through buying a better computer and connection - which already exists and is unavoidable. My example would be someone paying the Golf Course an extra $100 a hole and getting 2 free strokes which is how I would characterize RMT.
That's the incorrect context though, just as with any argument comparing a mmo to a game like golf, or pool, or monopoly. All of those games have a distinguished beginning and end. MMOs do not have a beginning or end, and there is no winner and loser. Your analogy simply cannot apply.
It's been fun times discussing RMT lately, but I wanted to bring up another issue just as important and unbalancing. Time. The anti-rmters think it's ok for someone to have more time to play a mmo than someone else and reap those rewards. Yet, the moment someone spends some real cash to catch up to those who have the time advantage, it is suddenly cheating. IMO, time is just as unbalancing a factor in mmo gameplay as rmt supposedly is. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that rmt is more of a balancing factor than an unbalancing factor.
So, disucss. Is the fact that one person has more time to play than another an unbalancing factor in mmos? If so, should time be regulated to make the game fair for everyone? If the anti-rmters are so concerned about fairness in mmos, shouldn't they be just as concerned about fairness in playtime as they are about rmt?
I think it's important to note that I am not advocating restricting time in mmos. I am just saying that to me any argument against rmt on the basis of "fairness" is completely illogical given the inherent unfairness of the time variable.
Time is not unbalanced, cause MMORPG do not have a time limit on them, when people put time presure on themselfs they more playing a job then playing to be entertained in my opinion.
Time has nothing to do with fairness, someone that can spend more time playing should get better rewards/gear/items then someone who does not have that much time, I am a gamer that does not have much time to spend the last few years on my online gaming hobby, but will never get or use it like some sort of excuse to get into RMT for it.
Just to clarify though, that is more equivalent to the advantage acquired through buying a better computer and connection - which already exists and is unavoidable. My example would be someone paying the Golf Course an extra $100 a hole and getting 2 free strokes which is how I would characterize RMT.
That's the incorrect context though, just as with any argument comparing a mmo to a game like golf, or pool, or monopoly. All of those games have a distinguished beginning and end. MMOs do not have a beginning or end, and there is no winner and loser. Your analogy simply cannot apply.
I'd argue it can apply to any "sporting activity" so long as it is being played casually and not competitively. When I play pool (or golf or whatever) with friends, the point is to enjoy the activity and the community - not obsess on pwning them. (I could also point out that the people who do insist on pwnage in casual play soon find themselves alone) Obviously that doesn't apply in any competitive or league sort of setting though.
However, since that's a fair criticism, I prefer the other example I used - that of a Pen and Paper RPG where the DM has every character start with some set of stuff, but says that whoever gives him some cash on the side will get more. Or a player who joins an established campaign and offers the DM money so long as his character is exactly the same level as the highest players and has all the same or better gear. It's not really cheating, but it's definately slimey and reeks of unfairness to me.
Either way, this one has been beaten to death. I find the very concept of RMT distasteful, but clearly others don't - so long as they are content to stay far away from anything I am playing and do not try to lobby every MMO around to that economic model (or argue that its the inevitable wave of the future lol), I really couldn't care less
Originally posted by zaxxon23 It's been fun times discussing RMT lately, but I wanted to bring up another issue just as important and unbalancing. Time. The anti-rmters think it's ok for someone to have more time to play a mmo than someone else and reap those rewards. Yet, the moment someone spends some real cash to catch up to those who have the time advantage, it is suddenly cheating. IMO, time is just as unbalancing a factor in mmo gameplay as rmt supposedly is. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that rmt is more of a balancing factor than an unbalancing factor.
Not at all, it's not unbalancing in any way. What folks like you and others who argue back and forth on balance don't get that all human actions are through time. And time is asymmetric. The arrow points one way. As such, there's no magical code or model that resolves this fact. In fact, it should be enjoyed that as one applied either money or labor (which both are logically equivalent as money can buy labor, and labor can earn one money) result in a progression of states from human action through a game or through real life. So, throw off up the tired old idea of balance and equilibrium and embrace the empirical and rational fact that things are not always going to be fair, nor are they always going to be unfair in games. :-P
You know beforehand whether or not you will have the time that you need to do what you want in an mmorpg.
If you know you don't have the time, then don't come into the game expecting special consideration.
Go play Pogo and stop ruining this genre even further for those of us who actually PLAY the games the way they are meant to be played.
People like you are the reason schools have been dumbed down so kids don't feel bad because they're less smart than those who actually study for their grades.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
If I play a single player game, for example super mario world, I don't care if other people cheat, because it's only for my own entertainment, and I don't need other people to play the game.
In an mmo however, I play with alot of players. When I get items I get stronger compared to monsters and other players. It gives me satisfaction to see how much stronger I've become against players after I've gotten some new gear. Also fun to see how much easier an instance has become after I've invested time to become stronger.
When I buy an mmo and know there is rmt, then fine, they can go for it. I simply won't buy the game. But if let's say blizzard would add their own item shop, it would be so bad. You compete against very many people. If you're horde, and alliance buys full epic gear, then you will be weaker against them. If someone of your archetype or class buys gear with real money, his chances to join a group/guild/raid are greater than yours if you have worse gear.
What I'm saying is, the only time I think rmt is wrong is when it is put in a game that didn't have it in the start. Then alot of players have already invested time in the game, and all of a sudden people who are willing to spend money do so, and get the gear you've spent several months to obtain.
If you don't want to spend time in the game, then don't play it. It probably isn't for you. Let people who like it grind their ass off for what they want to achieve.
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What is the balance that you desire, and what would it benefit the maker of the game to have that particular kind of balance? I can only hypothesize as to what the balance you're looking for is, but if I do understand it correctly, there are a lot of games that are quite successful and allow for what you are calling an imbalance.
Do people really want a "level playing field" in a game, and if so, why? Is it just an idealistic sense of egalitarianism, or are they looking for something they don't feel they're getting out of real life?
I'd edited my original post so maybe you didn't see it, but I added this: For example, in a race, one runner is faster than the other. That doesn't mean its ok for the race organizer to sell head-starts.
I'm not looking for a universal playing field, but the game organizer/provider should offer a level playing field for the players. Any imbalance that comes after that from the players own circumstances is just life.
But this is not a race, and there are no winners.
How about a Golf analogy? We're just factoring in player handicaps!
In my analogy the race equates competition. And there are winners. There are goals and rewards for completing those goals. Thats winning. To take it to golf, what if the pga said, sold stroke erasers?
What is the balance that you desire, and what would it benefit the maker of the game to have that particular kind of balance? I can only hypothesize as to what the balance you're looking for is, but if I do understand it correctly, there are a lot of games that are quite successful and allow for what you are calling an imbalance.
Do people really want a "level playing field" in a game, and if so, why? Is it just an idealistic sense of egalitarianism, or are they looking for something they don't feel they're getting out of real life?
I'd edited my original post so maybe you didn't see it, but I added this: For example, in a race, one runner is faster than the other. That doesn't mean its ok for the race organizer to sell head-starts.
I'm not looking for a universal playing field, but the game organizer/provider should offer a level playing field for the players. Any imbalance that comes after that from the players own circumstances is just life.
But this is not a race, and there are no winners.
How about a Golf analogy? We're just factoring in player handicaps!
In my analogy the race equates competition. And there are winners. There are goals and rewards for completing those goals. Thats winning. To take it to golf, what if the pga said, sold stroke erasers?
Then when I played, I would still know how many strokes it actually took me to finish, so it wouldn't matter.
I don't know what world you live in, but my time is far more valuable then money. Obviously you take your time for granted, you must have an abundance of free time, lucky you.
I have as much time as the next guy. I just choose to spend my recreational time in games. When I'm off work my time does not = money
This is off topic and seriously you guys wasted a whole page on RMT debate when the topic is about TIME and not RMT.
Anyways, the average American spends 9 hours working (+lunch), 8 hours sleeping, 1 hour commute to work and back, 1 hour dinner (prep/eating/cleanup), 1 hour hygiene, 1 hour of unwind time, that leaves 4 hours in the day, which you can choose to do something productive such as errands/chores/homework or recreations like TV and games. I could use 4 more hours in my day and I bet many a working man would agree with me.
The average american is not a gamer and certainly not a MMORPG gamer. An MMORPG gamer for the most part knows that time is a factor when it comes to advancing. They know it's not a FPS you can just load up and play on par with everybody else. Their available time is a determining factor if they will be playing a MMORPG or not. My time goes as this 12 hour shifts 3 days a week leaving me with 4 off days. Even if i were working 9 hours i don't spend 1 hour showering unless some of that time also equals playtime. As for chores some of us have kids in their teens that can do that. No i doubt you can categorize an average american gamer the way you have. Not to mention americans are not the only gamers in the world. Some countries people work less hours ..i know Denmark the average working hours are 37 a week..that's just one country out of many.
It all boils down to priority that's it.
If you're talking RMT via an official Item Mall, that's totally cool. XP boosts etc are fine, aslong as it's not possible to stack an unlimited amount of them (Which is how Shanda killed Legend of Mir in China).
If you're talking RMT as in using unofficial methods, gold farming and power leveling websites, then yeah, that is obviously "cheating". Even though lots of us use those gold selling sites (me included
) it is cheating in a way, gaining an unfair advantage.
Anything that isn't supported officially, is unfair. (And you clever shits, don't go mincing my words by saying "wahwah so Ventrillo is unfair!!??!1111", I can't be bothered with oen of them silly arguments).
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Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
What is the balance that you desire, and what would it benefit the maker of the game to have that particular kind of balance? I can only hypothesize as to what the balance you're looking for is, but if I do understand it correctly, there are a lot of games that are quite successful and allow for what you are calling an imbalance.
Do people really want a "level playing field" in a game, and if so, why? Is it just an idealistic sense of egalitarianism, or are they looking for something they don't feel they're getting out of real life?
I'd edited my original post so maybe you didn't see it, but I added this: For example, in a race, one runner is faster than the other. That doesn't mean its ok for the race organizer to sell head-starts.
I'm not looking for a universal playing field, but the game organizer/provider should offer a level playing field for the players. Any imbalance that comes after that from the players own circumstances is just life.
But this is not a race, and there are no winners.
How about a Golf analogy? We're just factoring in player handicaps!
In my analogy the race equates competition. And there are winners. There are goals and rewards for completing those goals. Thats winning. To take it to golf, what if the pga said, sold stroke erasers?
Then when I played, I would still know how many strokes it actually took me to finish, so it wouldn't matter.
It may not matter to you, but many people would feel it devalued their effort. You bust your hump over x amount of time, increased your skill through trial an error in a learning process and you have to share the reward with a guy who showed up at the last minute and bought the reward. Part of the value of the reward is that it represents what you did to get it. Plus since more than likely the process of rmt is private between the player and the producer, it devalues your accomplishment even further because now every players' accomplishment must be viewed as suspect.
You can't argue away that for a lot of players a big part of the MMO experience is the process. And that is where the time imbalance doesn't equate with the rmt imbalance. The time imbalance doesn't devalue someone elses accomplishments.
All it boils down to is this.
There will always be people wanting something for nothing..quite a lot of people. If they can buy their way to skip the people in line they will gladly do so. There is no arguing with such a person because they will never see your point. They want what they want..and sooner rather than later. If money gives them those means then they are happy.
What is the balance that you desire, and what would it benefit the maker of the game to have that particular kind of balance? I can only hypothesize as to what the balance you're looking for is, but if I do understand it correctly, there are a lot of games that are quite successful and allow for what you are calling an imbalance.
Do people really want a "level playing field" in a game, and if so, why? Is it just an idealistic sense of egalitarianism, or are they looking for something they don't feel they're getting out of real life?
I'd edited my original post so maybe you didn't see it, but I added this: For example, in a race, one runner is faster than the other. That doesn't mean its ok for the race organizer to sell head-starts.
I'm not looking for a universal playing field, but the game organizer/provider should offer a level playing field for the players. Any imbalance that comes after that from the players own circumstances is just life.
But this is not a race, and there are no winners.
How about a Golf analogy? We're just factoring in player handicaps!
In my analogy the race equates competition. And there are winners. There are goals and rewards for completing those goals. Thats winning. To take it to golf, what if the pga said, sold stroke erasers?
Then when I played, I would still know how many strokes it actually took me to finish, so it wouldn't matter.
It may not matter to you, but many people would feel it devalued their effort. You bust your hump over x amount of time, increased your skill through trial an error in a learning process and you have to share the reward with a guy who showed up at the last minute and bought the reward. Part of the value of the reward is that it represents what you did to get it. Plus since more than likely the process of rmt is private between the player and the producer, it devalues your accomplishment even further because now every players' accomplishment must be viewed as suspect.
You can't argue away that for a lot of players a big part of the MMO experience is the process. And that is where the time imbalance doesn't equate with the rmt imbalance. The time imbalance doesn't devalue someone elses accomplishments.
Just like you can't argue away that for a lot of players a big part of the MMO experience is NOT in the process, hence the gold buying, character buying, and power leveling, not to mention the item malls. And as more people play f2p mmo's than p2p, where would you say the majority is?
Ya but I don't even begrudge them that. Sometimes I want something for nothing too. (like not doing any work but still getting a paycheck!) But in a game, I play for fun, sharing the playing field with people like that make it less fun for me.
Upshot is, I'm not against rmt, I just wouldn't play a game with rmt.
Which is why communism was always just a plain dumb idea.
You can't stop trade, it will always happen. Once you have trading you have some kind of market (free or otherwise). Once this stuff is out of the government control you no longer have full on communism. Once this sort of stuff goes out of the developers control you have strange inputs into the pretend system,
All these arguments about time and RMT etc they just prove one thing: MMORPGs are mostly about a power trip within people's heads. People never miss those levels they paid someone else to do because they were not that fun to begin with. Add on the fact that alot of level based MMORPG basically give a neutered class that has to mature rather than a mature but later on customizable class and you have no reason to waste your time.
Just look at the paradox that is LOTRO they have a ton of things meant to extend play, like deeds. These deeds can go by fast if you have some quests and instances that are involve killing the right thing. Yet people still go out and grind them even though its not fun. They actually gated the latest content update with a cock-block rep grind. I mean they actually force you to go through pain to see something cool. Add in the fact that you cannot even customize your class to s significant degree until you are about 2/3 of the way through the levels AND have grinded out a bunch of class deeds. I still can't customize my Warden the way I want, not because of level but because i have to use each of 3 skills about 300 times more and there are daily limits that stop progress on that.
There is nothing wrong with something taking time to do. But if that is the only thing going for it that is a problem. And if there is reward at the end they want of course people will pay for it.
RMT item mall type game are merely preying upon this idea. Rather than making a fun game they are charging you for the courtesy of not doing a bunch of long ass boring stuff to go on the same old power trip that is normally gated with time and inconvience. If a game was fun enough to level in and classes started off fairly mature to begin with rather needing to wait to level frigging 45 out of 50 to get your first AOE. Then no one would pay for a leveling service. But since they are this way people do pay.
It is as simple as that. Item malls are basically a complete sham. The only reason they even exist at all is because of the dumbass time sink mechanics. It is sad that people want to keep the very thing that is the root cause of the problem and treat the symptom by banning or otherwise mitigating the people who try to get aroudn them. Yeah most gold sellers are scum or in some cases flat out crooks. But we are not talking about drug dealers. The games themselves are flawed.
The idea of an item mall would be completely retarded if we started from scratch and did not have the history of so many MMORPGs that essentially only matured at "end game" or made leveling a chore or whatever else. The only reason the idea of an item mall is even tolerated is that the alternative of an EQ style grind or raid grind is the alternative and is equally distasteful to many people.
I mean seriously think about it, past MMO are so screwed up that people will pay extra money for pretend stuff that is a clear and obvious scam just ot avoid that crap. It is completely nuts.
I don't mind RMT for artistic work product like new costume packs. But item malls are such an obvious case of how the industry itself has fostered what basically amounts to insanity that it is rather staggering.
MMORPGs are not games. They are basically skinner boxes. And now people are starting to see what happens with this sort of thing. You start getting a market and trade because people want the power trip
Its not just time but skill as well. If you flat out suck you can throw all the time you want at an MMO and not get anywhere. In WOW for instance I played a warlock and I refused to change my tactics with the times, got left behind in the meters and was booted from my raiding guild. If you suck your out of luck.
RMT is different. you pay=you get. No effort, no guts just entering a credit card number.
You can make up for lack of time with skill. But once RMT enters the equation whoever has the most money wins, there is no counter. And even if you say screw it I dont need to compete or I'm so good I can keep up without buying my gear the more insidious developers will release SOMETHING that catches your fancy and leaves you no choice but to fork over some cash, whether its for a special pet, a unique emote or a mega house.
What is the balance that you desire, and what would it benefit the maker of the game to have that particular kind of balance? I can only hypothesize as to what the balance you're looking for is, but if I do understand it correctly, there are a lot of games that are quite successful and allow for what you are calling an imbalance.
Do people really want a "level playing field" in a game, and if so, why? Is it just an idealistic sense of egalitarianism, or are they looking for something they don't feel they're getting out of real life?
I'd edited my original post so maybe you didn't see it, but I added this: For example, in a race, one runner is faster than the other. That doesn't mean its ok for the race organizer to sell head-starts.
I'm not looking for a universal playing field, but the game organizer/provider should offer a level playing field for the players. Any imbalance that comes after that from the players own circumstances is just life.
But this is not a race, and there are no winners.
How about a Golf analogy? We're just factoring in player handicaps!
In my analogy the race equates competition. And there are winners. There are goals and rewards for completing those goals. Thats winning. To take it to golf, what if the pga said, sold stroke erasers?
Then when I played, I would still know how many strokes it actually took me to finish, so it wouldn't matter.
It may not matter to you, but many people would feel it devalued their effort. You bust your hump over x amount of time, increased your skill through trial an error in a learning process and you have to share the reward with a guy who showed up at the last minute and bought the reward. Part of the value of the reward is that it represents what you did to get it. Plus since more than likely the process of rmt is private between the player and the producer, it devalues your accomplishment even further because now every players' accomplishment must be viewed as suspect.
You can't argue away that for a lot of players a big part of the MMO experience is the process. And that is where the time imbalance doesn't equate with the rmt imbalance. The time imbalance doesn't devalue someone elses accomplishments.
Just like you can't argue away that for a lot of players a big part of the MMO experience is NOT in the process, hence the gold buying, character buying, and power leveling, not to mention the item malls. And as more people play f2p mmo's than p2p, where would you say the majority is?
You can't compare people who break the rules to the game itself sanctioning it. It takes something away. Some people miss that something being taken away, some don't. The majority doesn't matter, the point is something is taken away by it.
Also I never argued that a lot of people enjoy skipping the process, my point is that there is an impact on a game with rmt. That some people like or dislike the impact is obvious.
And I'll grant you based merely on the size of the gold-selling, etc... industry that the majority do enjoy skipping the process and go straight to the reward, but then I'll ask you, of that group how many are open about it?
MMIOs are games, it's that simple.
If you happened to say play pool with your friends instead...and some of them were a lot better than you because they had more time to play...is that fair? Would you feel entitled to be able to spend real money to buy advantages to compete with them? Same with any sport where the more you play can equal better performance.
I've always seen the real issue as overly competitive people with money to throw around trying to buy an edge. To me it defeats the purpose. I'm playing these games to have fun doing so, not compete with everyone else in an epeen contest.
Completely agree with this.
You forget that in Eve time is not unbalanced at all. So it all depends on the game and how it was designed.
It's unfortunate that item mall games have ended up in this discussion. Although technically an item mall game is rmt, I don't view it in the same context. I should have been more clear by saying I meant player to player trade, not company to player (or for that matter gold farmer to player).
I do think the most humerous argument against rmt is that it "devalues" someone else's achievements. There is no logic in that argument, it is purely emotional, not to mention just a slight bit strange. If you killed a super hard to kill mob and got a piece of fat loot, someone buying the same gear doesn't devalue your achievement in any way shape or form. I particularly like the guy who said that if you made silver items for bought items and gold items for earned items, that the demand would drop dramatically. This guy just doesn't get it. He thinks that other people actually give a darn about your achievements in game. No one cares. They're all playing their own game, and when they ooh and ahh at your gear it's not because they think you're cool it's because they are simply envious of your gear for selfish reasons.
To sum it up, some of you guys just gotta get over yourself. We're talking mmos here, GAMES. Games shouldn't boost your self-confidence or "devalue" your "work". They are meant for entertainment, and people are always willing to pay for more entertainment. Sure, buying a max level character with fat gear may ruin the way you want to play, but if they only want to pvp or otherwise play with their high level friend, there is a tangible entertainment value to the purchase. It's not stupid or frivilous, it actually provides value to the customer, and provides no less value then wasting your money on nothing at the bar or going out to see a movie. In addition, these people don't care in the slightest about "achievement" and "skill". They just wanna kill masses of mobs with their friends, see pretty colors, and pwn some nubs. You must understand how the "other side" thinks before you sit here and call them cheaters. They will never see the game the same way you do. Not because they're stupid or have low morals, but because they simply see the game in an entirely different light than you do. What makes you right and them wrong?
Though I agree with the sentiment somewhat, I'm not sure this really stacks up all that well in real life. In most sports, you can buy really good equipment that can give you an edge over someone using outdated crap. Golf is a great example. Though my set of brand new top line clubs may not make up for hundreds of hours of practice by someone else, it definitely gives me an edge over the dude playing with clubs from the 80's.
/agree
In the context of skills alone. There's a lot more to eve than skills.
Just to clarify though, that is more equivalent to the advantage acquired through buying a better computer and connection - which already exists and is unavoidable. My example would be someone paying the Golf Course an extra $100 a hole and getting 2 free strokes which is how I would characterize RMT.
Just to clarify though, that is more equivalent to the advantage acquired through buying a better computer and connection - which already exists and is unavoidable. My example would be someone paying the Golf Course an extra $100 a hole and getting 2 free strokes which is how I would characterize RMT.
That's the incorrect context though, just as with any argument comparing a mmo to a game like golf, or pool, or monopoly. All of those games have a distinguished beginning and end. MMOs do not have a beginning or end, and there is no winner and loser. Your analogy simply cannot apply.
Time is not unbalanced, cause MMORPG do not have a time limit on them, when people put time presure on themselfs they more playing a job then playing to be entertained in my opinion.
Time has nothing to do with fairness, someone that can spend more time playing should get better rewards/gear/items then someone who does not have that much time, I am a gamer that does not have much time to spend the last few years on my online gaming hobby, but will never get or use it like some sort of excuse to get into RMT for it.
That's the incorrect context though, just as with any argument comparing a mmo to a game like golf, or pool, or monopoly. All of those games have a distinguished beginning and end. MMOs do not have a beginning or end, and there is no winner and loser. Your analogy simply cannot apply.
I'd argue it can apply to any "sporting activity" so long as it is being played casually and not competitively. When I play pool (or golf or whatever) with friends, the point is to enjoy the activity and the community - not obsess on pwning them. (I could also point out that the people who do insist on pwnage in casual play soon find themselves alone) Obviously that doesn't apply in any competitive or league sort of setting though.
However, since that's a fair criticism, I prefer the other example I used - that of a Pen and Paper RPG where the DM has every character start with some set of stuff, but says that whoever gives him some cash on the side will get more. Or a player who joins an established campaign and offers the DM money so long as his character is exactly the same level as the highest players and has all the same or better gear. It's not really cheating, but it's definately slimey and reeks of unfairness to me.
Either way, this one has been beaten to death. I find the very concept of RMT distasteful, but clearly others don't - so long as they are content to stay far away from anything I am playing and do not try to lobby every MMO around to that economic model (or argue that its the inevitable wave of the future lol), I really couldn't care less
Not at all, it's not unbalancing in any way. What folks like you and others who argue back and forth on balance don't get that all human actions are through time. And time is asymmetric. The arrow points one way. As such, there's no magical code or model that resolves this fact. In fact, it should be enjoyed that as one applied either money or labor (which both are logically equivalent as money can buy labor, and labor can earn one money) result in a progression of states from human action through a game or through real life. So, throw off up the tired old idea of balance and equilibrium and embrace the empirical and rational fact that things are not always going to be fair, nor are they always going to be unfair in games. :-P
Time is not unbalancing.
You know beforehand whether or not you will have the time that you need to do what you want in an mmorpg.
If you know you don't have the time, then don't come into the game expecting special consideration.
Go play Pogo and stop ruining this genre even further for those of us who actually PLAY the games the way they are meant to be played.
People like you are the reason schools have been dumbed down so kids don't feel bad because they're less smart than those who actually study for their grades.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
If I play a single player game, for example super mario world, I don't care if other people cheat, because it's only for my own entertainment, and I don't need other people to play the game.
In an mmo however, I play with alot of players. When I get items I get stronger compared to monsters and other players. It gives me satisfaction to see how much stronger I've become against players after I've gotten some new gear. Also fun to see how much easier an instance has become after I've invested time to become stronger.
When I buy an mmo and know there is rmt, then fine, they can go for it. I simply won't buy the game. But if let's say blizzard would add their own item shop, it would be so bad. You compete against very many people. If you're horde, and alliance buys full epic gear, then you will be weaker against them. If someone of your archetype or class buys gear with real money, his chances to join a group/guild/raid are greater than yours if you have worse gear.
What I'm saying is, the only time I think rmt is wrong is when it is put in a game that didn't have it in the start. Then alot of players have already invested time in the game, and all of a sudden people who are willing to spend money do so, and get the gear you've spent several months to obtain.
If you don't want to spend time in the game, then don't play it. It probably isn't for you. Let people who like it grind their ass off for what they want to achieve.