pve sucks step your game up and learn how to best the greatest players of your game
you should have to pvp to pve
fight over boss spawns
well i'm all for games that aren't 1 demensional
i dont like pve, so i shouldn't have too, the same way a pve'er shouldn't have to pvp (god only know why you dont wanna learn to play the game in a manner where you dominate an actual person instead of AI)
games need to work in a way that pvpers dont have to pve, and them winning or controling things opens up something for someone who pves
etc..etc.
you get the idea
pve is boring
it shouldn't be in any game
a real game would have you level up by hunting down and killing other human players
Fight players for bosses like back in EQ1 on Rallos Zek or any of the later pvp servers? Didn't DAoC have the whole pvp to open up pve thing too? WAR lets you level through pvp exclusively if you wish, and the end game pve is accessed through pvp.
Anyway the point of this is, there has been options for everything you want to do for at least 10 years now.
I don't know about everquest 1 but in WoW on an RP server, clearly more people raid now then back when it was 40 man raids. Back in the days of 40 man content there where only 2/3 guilds on the server doing end-game progression content, and every other guild was out of luck constantly bleeding their best players to these 2/3 guilds. Nowadays you easily have more then 30 guilds doing 25 man content.
Back in the days of MC and BWL it was also commonly accepted that roleplayers could never see end-game content. If you wanted to experience progression raids you had to leave your nice guild of mature roleplayers and join some massive guild with a non-rp name, largely consisting of kids (who had the time for it) and often openly showed their disrespect for the RP rules and community.
Nowadays this has completely changed. While there are obviously still non-RP guilds on RP servers, there are also a massive amount of succesful RP guilds who raid end-game progression content. No longer do you have to give up your RP guild or mature family guild to join some zerg guild filled to the brim with 14 year olds that spit on the community. A huge improvement in my opinion.
Back in the days of MC and BWL it was also commonly accepted that roleplayers could never see end-game content. If you wanted to experience progression raids you had to leave your nice guild of mature roleplayers and join some massive guild with a non-rp name, largely consisting of kids (who had the time for it) and often openly showed their disrespect for the RP rules and community. Nowadays this has completely changed. While there are obviously still non-RP guilds on RP servers, there are also a massive amount of succesful RP guilds who raid end-game progression content. No longer do you have to give up your RP guild or mature family guild to join some zerg guild filled to the brim with 14 year olds that spit on the community. A huge improvement in my opinion.
Yeah I remember that blizard themselves revealed back in the pre-BC days that it was only between 5 and 15% of the player base that actually took part in raids. Seen from a business perspective it was silly to spend so much development time on such a small portion of their customers.
The only possible answer were to make the endgame system in WoW accessible for more players, that or change what the entire endgame would be about so the choice was simple.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
Back in the days of MC and BWL it was also commonly accepted that roleplayers could never see end-game content. If you wanted to experience progression raids you had to leave your nice guild of mature roleplayers and join some massive guild with a non-rp name, largely consisting of kids (who had the time for it) and often openly showed their disrespect for the RP rules and community. Nowadays this has completely changed. While there are obviously still non-RP guilds on RP servers, there are also a massive amount of succesful RP guilds who raid end-game progression content. No longer do you have to give up your RP guild or mature family guild to join some zerg guild filled to the brim with 14 year olds that spit on the community. A huge improvement in my opinion.
Yeah I remember that blizard themselves revealed back in the pre-BC days that it was only between 5 and 15% of the player base that actually took part in raids. Seen from a business perspective it was silly to spend so much development time on such a small portion of their customers.
The only possible answer were to make the endgame system in WoW accessible for more players, that or change what the entire endgame would be about so the choice was simple.
Why do so many issues on here have to turn into an epic battle of good groups vs. evil groups, with the writer's group always being more mature, intelligent, and sensible than the other group being blamed for the ills of the industry? In my experience, hard core RPers tend to be older, but not in any way as a collective group more mature or polite than any other sector of the gaming population. The ones I've encountered who talk about RPers collectively and describe themselves as somehow better than another sector of the population usually seem to be the sort who are not satisfied with their real lives, and use RP as a crutch to make themselves feel that the playing field has somehow been equalized for them or even tipped in their favor. They also tend to blur the line between gaming and reality, at least when it comes to describing their experiences with a game.
As to the issue of massive PvE raids being dead, I would probably describe them more as moribund, but not completely dead, primarily because of the logistics of getting so many people together focused and cooperating. There is a clear trend of shrinking the required numbers for high level end game content. Anyone who looks at the threads on this website can see how difficult it is to get even a few people to get along, let alone 40+.
In the end it will get trimmed and shortened as long as people whine, which is as long as it isnt a solo activity, at which point someone reinvents the big raid, and people jump in there for the forgotten feeling of team spirit..... then starting whining all over again.
I agree with this assessment.
I never remember people complaining about large raids (70+) prior to MMOs going more "mainstream" and attracting the more casual crowd. It was when that casual crowd began playing them that the whole "they're too big! make them smaller so it's easier and faster to get a raid together!" thing started. So they did... and it was okay, for a while... Then the casuals started complaining that 40+ was "too big! make them smaller so it's easier to get a raid together!". And so on.
It's to the point now where, and I kid you not, I've seen various posts on different MMO forums, and some here, I believe, of people arguing that raids should be soloable. Yes, soloable. I can't think of anything more antithetical to the concept of a "raid" than one person fighting a boss.
It's just the way things are going. A large portion of the casual players have that firmly ingrained sense of "me, me, me first" in them and want everything to be designed so they can do it all themself and never have to share or coordinate with anyone else.
And they are *never* happy... at least not for long.
First it was "well, just add some casual content so those of us who don't like large raids can participate, too"
So that was done. There were larger raids, and smaller ones.
That was okay... for a while. But then the "me me me" crowd became unhappy again... Why? Because there was now still content that "they couldn't do" and it was "unfair". So now they started demanding that all large raids be removed or reduced in size so they could do it as well. And those who liked the large raids? Well, tough... they could go find another game. It was all about *them* and what *they* wanted. And what *they* wanted was an easier, faster and more soloable game.
Again, leading up to some now arguing that raids should be soloable. Funny thing is, had anyone said that would be the case 4 or 5 years ago, you'd be laughed at and told to take off the tin-foil hat. But yet, here we are.
I mean, there's been this incredible amount of greed and selfishness coming largely from the casual crowd since MMOs went mainstream. Though some saw the writing on the wall a few years back now, it's funny to see people now starting to say "What happened to MMOs? What happened to the epic battles and having to team up and coordinate with dozens of others to take on massive bosses...?" My answer: Ask the "casuals" who won't be happy until every MMO is a single player game that they can "win" in a month or two and move on to the next one.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Good luck finding a modern game with that kind of raiding mechanic. EverQuest lost millions of subscribers during the height of popularity precisely because of this kind of game play. That's why they came out with EverQuest 2, to try and grab those 2 million plus who abandoned EverQuest due to it's hardcore focus and bias. Gaming companies just aren't going to go back to 75 man raids, it doesn't pay and it alienates a huge percentage of the gaming population. Hell, 40 man raids in World of Warcraft alienated a lot of players so they ditched it quickly.
I don't think Everquest ever had millions of subscribers did they? I played from the beginning and I swear they had more than any other company but never in the millions. I loved that game btw. If they ever create a classic server I will make it my new MMO for a few years. I would do the same as well for a classic WoW server. The MMOs are always best when still using the devs original design. Next comes players' basically designing the game through forum complaints and the devs caving.
When they were making EQ2, they stated many times that they were trying to get back the more than 2 million people who tried and left EQ. They never retained more than 450,000 at it's peak, but they did have that many people try the game over it's early years.
Greed of the casual crowd? I see just as much if not more greed in the raider crowd. You're the ones who keep saying if raiding didn't have the best loot, no one would do it. You're the ones who keep chewing through content, then whining to the developers that you deserve to have lots more, despite being in the minority. You're the ones who sit in populated areas just so casuals can oooh and aaah over your epic mounts and gear. You're the ones who cry bloody murder when casuals are allowed to get any kind of epics, let alone anything that is remotely close in power to your gear.
I'm currently playing Wizard 101 and Free Realms just so I don't have to play a raiding game and because I'm waiting for Star Wars The Old Republic, yet another non-raiding game. Not only do I dislike raid content, but I dislike raiders in general.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Why do so many issues on here have to turn into an epic battle of good groups vs. evil groups, with the writer's group always being more mature, intelligent, and sensible than the other group being blamed for the ills of the industry? In my experience, hard core RPers tend to be older, but not in any way as a collective group more mature or polite than any other sector of the gaming population. The ones I've encountered who talk about RPers collectively and describe themselves as somehow better than another sector of the population usually seem to be the sort who are not satisfied with their real lives, and use RP as a crutch to make themselves feel that the playing field has somehow been equalized for them or even tipped in their favor. They also tend to blur the line between gaming and reality, at least when it comes to describing their experiences with a game.
People work that way, it is easy to think that you are better than others and youre playstyle is the only good one. But it is the same way with all groups of people, like music fans, sport fans, Trekkies, religous groups...
But I don't see why there isn't room for both easier RAIDs and a few really hard that only the best can handle. There should be some stuff that really makes the wearer proud. Otherwise we don't have anything to really motivates us. I don't want exactly the same stuff as everyone else when I play the endgame. I want my gear to have a story (this gauntlet I got from killing Trakkar the frost dragon, we almost wiped).
And I am a RPGer, and not that young either. But I still want some really hard content or I don't really have that much reason to play the game and will quit once I hit max level.
I came to playing mmos from first playing lots of fps games online. The game of my choice was Halo CE, and the teams were at most 8v8 multiplayer fights. Bungie also never increased the numbers per team as the series went on for a reason I agree with. When you start adding more people the player is less likely to be able to stand out and be the hero. Smaller teams would actually require more team work because their are fewer people to do particular jobs. So insteand of have 5 healers on tank you only have 2, and if one of those healers isn't paying attention the tank will be much more worse off then with more healers to pick up the slack.
More isn't always better, it might make the battle seem all round bigger, but just wouldn't always make it feel more fun in the long run.
In the end it will get trimmed and shortened as long as people whine, which is as long as it isnt a solo activity, at which point someone reinvents the big raid, and people jump in there for the forgotten feeling of team spirit..... then starting whining all over again.
I agree with this assessment.
*snip*
I mean, there's been this incredible amount of greed and selfishness coming largely from the casual crowd since MMOs went mainstream. Though some saw the writing on the wall a few years back now, it's funny to see people now starting to say "What happened to MMOs? What happened to the epic battles and having to team up and coordinate with dozens of others to take on massive bosses...?" My answer: Ask the "casuals" who won't be happy until every MMO is a single player game that they can "win" in a month or two and move on to the next one.
Whilst I agree to a large degree that the complaints from those who would unjustly wish upon themselves similar "riches" to those they see around them has had a huge effect on the way that developers have carried forward many games, I might have a mind as to take exception to the implication that playing "casually" is tantamount to being an egotistical complainer.
I have found myself often in the shoes of both an infrequent, casual if you will, player and also a raider, depending on my current real-life committments. I've never warmed to the term "casual" as even when I wasn't able to guarantee enough time to raid or not go afk and so remained solo or amongst a group of understanding friends, I was always fully immersed in whichever game served as my current poison, and enjoyed playing to the maximum.
I have enjoyed mmoprgs wherein I have been content in the knowledge that I shall never be party to certain content and have enjoyed conversing with people that have; my own goals were relative to my means. Equally, when my circumstances have allowed I've taken pleasure in being part of something grand and really quite special in the form of raiding (40).
I'm really struggling to find something that has the same soul to it as was abundant just short years ago, and I can but think that this genre is almost expired, or at least it's roots. I'm sure that it will re-invent itself at some point, but perhaps not in the guise that we knew it.
I'm glad people are having fun with new mmorpgs, and wish them the best and hope you have as much fun as I did. I think I'll reluctantly bow out for now though.
In the end it will get trimmed and shortened as long as people whine, which is as long as it isnt a solo activity, at which point someone reinvents the big raid, and people jump in there for the forgotten feeling of team spirit..... then starting whining all over again.
I agree with this assessment.
I never remember people complaining about large raids (70+) prior to MMOs going more "mainstream" and attracting the more casual crowd. It was when that casual crowd began playing them that the whole "they're too big! make them smaller so it's easier and faster to get a raid together!" thing started. So they did... and it was okay, for a while... Then the casuals started complaining that 40+ was "too big! make them smaller so it's easier to get a raid together!". And so on.
It's to the point now where, and I kid you not, I've seen various posts on different MMO forums, and some here, I believe, of people arguing that raids should be soloable. Yes, soloable. I can't think of anything more antithetical to the concept of a "raid" than one person fighting a boss.
It's just the way things are going. A large portion of the casual players have that firmly ingrained sense of "me, me, me first" in them and want everything to be designed so they can do it all themself and never have to share or coordinate with anyone else.
And they are *never* happy... at least not for long.
First it was "well, just add some casual content so those of us who don't like large raids can participate, too"
So that was done. There were larger raids, and smaller ones.
That was okay... for a while. But then the "me me me" crowd became unhappy again... Why? Because there was now still content that "they couldn't do" and it was "unfair". So now they started demanding that all large raids be removed or reduced in size so they could do it as well. And those who liked the large raids? Well, tough... they could go find another game. It was all about *them* and what *they* wanted. And what *they* wanted was an easier, faster and more soloable game.
Again, leading up to some now arguing that raids should be soloable. Funny thing is, had anyone said that would be the case 4 or 5 years ago, you'd be laughed at and told to take off the tin-foil hat. But yet, here we are.
I mean, there's been this incredible amount of greed and selfishness coming largely from the casual crowd since MMOs went mainstream. Though some saw the writing on the wall a few years back now, it's funny to see people now starting to say "What happened to MMOs? What happened to the epic battles and having to team up and coordinate with dozens of others to take on massive bosses...?" My answer: Ask the "casuals" who won't be happy until every MMO is a single player game that they can "win" in a month or two and move on to the next one.
I think that raids should have a soloable version, yes.
It has nothing to do with an 'I win' button.
I do not, even in an MMO, ever want to have to rely on someone else to see every bit of content in a game, or have a shot at every piece of loot. So, for me, every single boss, dungeon, and shiny should have a method of being seen/experienced/acquired without ever having to rely on anyone else. If it takes me 5 times a long to see it, get it, solo compared to grouping, that's fine, as long as it's possible.
People often say, let each play the way they want, and that's correct.
Grouping should be done out of choice, and never out of forced design. You should not have to team up in an MMO just because it is an MMO, but because you want to, because that way is more fun for you.
I'm not anti-grouping, I've done lots of raids, and sometimes they are fun. If that's what I'm in the mood for an that's how I want to enjoy my 15 bucks a month. But I should never have to.
I strongly believe that it is possible to make encounters that can be enjoyed by the soloer, by the small group or by the raid without diminishing the experience of each. It just takes some creativity.
The only argument I can't truly refute is this one I see sometimes: "Well, if it can be done solo, then it lessens the accomplishment of the group".
To me, that's silly. Don't concern yourself with how others play their game, just enjoy your own. Which is, kind of my point.
pve sucks step your game up and learn how to best the greatest players of your game
you should have to pvp to pve
fight over boss spawns
well i'm all for games that aren't 1 demensional
i dont like pve, so i shouldn't have too, the same way a pve'er shouldn't have to pvp (god only know why you dont wanna learn to play the game in a manner where you dominate an actual person instead of AI)
games need to work in a way that pvpers dont have to pve, and them winning or controling things opens up something for someone who pves
etc..etc.
you get the idea
pve is boring
it shouldn't be in any game
a real game would have you level up by hunting down and killing other human players
LOL .. you don't like it, you don't have to play PvE game. It turns out LOTS of people like it and we will just ignore you.
Comments
you should have to pvp to pve
fight over boss spawns
well i'm all for games that aren't 1 demensional
i dont like pve, so i shouldn't have too, the same way a pve'er shouldn't have to pvp (god only know why you dont wanna learn to play the game in a manner where you dominate an actual person instead of AI)
games need to work in a way that pvpers dont have to pve, and them winning or controling things opens up something for someone who pves
etc..etc.
you get the idea
pve is boring
it shouldn't be in any game
a real game would have you level up by hunting down and killing other human players
Fight players for bosses like back in EQ1 on Rallos Zek or any of the later pvp servers? Didn't DAoC have the whole pvp to open up pve thing too? WAR lets you level through pvp exclusively if you wish, and the end game pve is accessed through pvp.
Anyway the point of this is, there has been options for everything you want to do for at least 10 years now.
I don't know about everquest 1 but in WoW on an RP server, clearly more people raid now then back when it was 40 man raids. Back in the days of 40 man content there where only 2/3 guilds on the server doing end-game progression content, and every other guild was out of luck constantly bleeding their best players to these 2/3 guilds. Nowadays you easily have more then 30 guilds doing 25 man content.
Back in the days of MC and BWL it was also commonly accepted that roleplayers could never see end-game content. If you wanted to experience progression raids you had to leave your nice guild of mature roleplayers and join some massive guild with a non-rp name, largely consisting of kids (who had the time for it) and often openly showed their disrespect for the RP rules and community.
Nowadays this has completely changed. While there are obviously still non-RP guilds on RP servers, there are also a massive amount of succesful RP guilds who raid end-game progression content. No longer do you have to give up your RP guild or mature family guild to join some zerg guild filled to the brim with 14 year olds that spit on the community. A huge improvement in my opinion.
Yeah I remember that blizard themselves revealed back in the pre-BC days that it was only between 5 and 15% of the player base that actually took part in raids. Seen from a business perspective it was silly to spend so much development time on such a small portion of their customers.
The only possible answer were to make the endgame system in WoW accessible for more players, that or change what the entire endgame would be about so the choice was simple.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
Yeah I remember that blizard themselves revealed back in the pre-BC days that it was only between 5 and 15% of the player base that actually took part in raids. Seen from a business perspective it was silly to spend so much development time on such a small portion of their customers.
The only possible answer were to make the endgame system in WoW accessible for more players, that or change what the entire endgame would be about so the choice was simple.
Why do so many issues on here have to turn into an epic battle of good groups vs. evil groups, with the writer's group always being more mature, intelligent, and sensible than the other group being blamed for the ills of the industry? In my experience, hard core RPers tend to be older, but not in any way as a collective group more mature or polite than any other sector of the gaming population. The ones I've encountered who talk about RPers collectively and describe themselves as somehow better than another sector of the population usually seem to be the sort who are not satisfied with their real lives, and use RP as a crutch to make themselves feel that the playing field has somehow been equalized for them or even tipped in their favor. They also tend to blur the line between gaming and reality, at least when it comes to describing their experiences with a game.
As to the issue of massive PvE raids being dead, I would probably describe them more as moribund, but not completely dead, primarily because of the logistics of getting so many people together focused and cooperating. There is a clear trend of shrinking the required numbers for high level end game content. Anyone who looks at the threads on this website can see how difficult it is to get even a few people to get along, let alone 40+.
I agree with this assessment.
I never remember people complaining about large raids (70+) prior to MMOs going more "mainstream" and attracting the more casual crowd. It was when that casual crowd began playing them that the whole "they're too big! make them smaller so it's easier and faster to get a raid together!" thing started. So they did... and it was okay, for a while... Then the casuals started complaining that 40+ was "too big! make them smaller so it's easier to get a raid together!". And so on.
It's to the point now where, and I kid you not, I've seen various posts on different MMO forums, and some here, I believe, of people arguing that raids should be soloable. Yes, soloable. I can't think of anything more antithetical to the concept of a "raid" than one person fighting a boss.
It's just the way things are going. A large portion of the casual players have that firmly ingrained sense of "me, me, me first" in them and want everything to be designed so they can do it all themself and never have to share or coordinate with anyone else.
And they are *never* happy... at least not for long.
First it was "well, just add some casual content so those of us who don't like large raids can participate, too"
So that was done. There were larger raids, and smaller ones.
That was okay... for a while. But then the "me me me" crowd became unhappy again... Why? Because there was now still content that "they couldn't do" and it was "unfair". So now they started demanding that all large raids be removed or reduced in size so they could do it as well. And those who liked the large raids? Well, tough... they could go find another game. It was all about *them* and what *they* wanted. And what *they* wanted was an easier, faster and more soloable game.
Again, leading up to some now arguing that raids should be soloable. Funny thing is, had anyone said that would be the case 4 or 5 years ago, you'd be laughed at and told to take off the tin-foil hat. But yet, here we are.
I mean, there's been this incredible amount of greed and selfishness coming largely from the casual crowd since MMOs went mainstream. Though some saw the writing on the wall a few years back now, it's funny to see people now starting to say "What happened to MMOs? What happened to the epic battles and having to team up and coordinate with dozens of others to take on massive bosses...?" My answer: Ask the "casuals" who won't be happy until every MMO is a single player game that they can "win" in a month or two and move on to the next one.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I don't think Everquest ever had millions of subscribers did they? I played from the beginning and I swear they had more than any other company but never in the millions. I loved that game btw. If they ever create a classic server I will make it my new MMO for a few years. I would do the same as well for a classic WoW server. The MMOs are always best when still using the devs original design. Next comes players' basically designing the game through forum complaints and the devs caving.
When they were making EQ2, they stated many times that they were trying to get back the more than 2 million people who tried and left EQ. They never retained more than 450,000 at it's peak, but they did have that many people try the game over it's early years.
Greed of the casual crowd? I see just as much if not more greed in the raider crowd. You're the ones who keep saying if raiding didn't have the best loot, no one would do it. You're the ones who keep chewing through content, then whining to the developers that you deserve to have lots more, despite being in the minority. You're the ones who sit in populated areas just so casuals can oooh and aaah over your epic mounts and gear. You're the ones who cry bloody murder when casuals are allowed to get any kind of epics, let alone anything that is remotely close in power to your gear.
I'm currently playing Wizard 101 and Free Realms just so I don't have to play a raiding game and because I'm waiting for Star Wars The Old Republic, yet another non-raiding game. Not only do I dislike raid content, but I dislike raiders in general.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
EQ1 is still there. The new raids are different than you remember, though.
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
People work that way, it is easy to think that you are better than others and youre playstyle is the only good one. But it is the same way with all groups of people, like music fans, sport fans, Trekkies, religous groups...
But I don't see why there isn't room for both easier RAIDs and a few really hard that only the best can handle. There should be some stuff that really makes the wearer proud. Otherwise we don't have anything to really motivates us. I don't want exactly the same stuff as everyone else when I play the endgame. I want my gear to have a story (this gauntlet I got from killing Trakkar the frost dragon, we almost wiped).
And I am a RPGer, and not that young either. But I still want some really hard content or I don't really have that much reason to play the game and will quit once I hit max level.
I came to playing mmos from first playing lots of fps games online. The game of my choice was Halo CE, and the teams were at most 8v8 multiplayer fights. Bungie also never increased the numbers per team as the series went on for a reason I agree with. When you start adding more people the player is less likely to be able to stand out and be the hero. Smaller teams would actually require more team work because their are fewer people to do particular jobs. So insteand of have 5 healers on tank you only have 2, and if one of those healers isn't paying attention the tank will be much more worse off then with more healers to pick up the slack.
More isn't always better, it might make the battle seem all round bigger, but just wouldn't always make it feel more fun in the long run.
I agree with this assessment.
*snip*
I mean, there's been this incredible amount of greed and selfishness coming largely from the casual crowd since MMOs went mainstream. Though some saw the writing on the wall a few years back now, it's funny to see people now starting to say "What happened to MMOs? What happened to the epic battles and having to team up and coordinate with dozens of others to take on massive bosses...?" My answer: Ask the "casuals" who won't be happy until every MMO is a single player game that they can "win" in a month or two and move on to the next one.
Whilst I agree to a large degree that the complaints from those who would unjustly wish upon themselves similar "riches" to those they see around them has had a huge effect on the way that developers have carried forward many games, I might have a mind as to take exception to the implication that playing "casually" is tantamount to being an egotistical complainer.
I have found myself often in the shoes of both an infrequent, casual if you will, player and also a raider, depending on my current real-life committments. I've never warmed to the term "casual" as even when I wasn't able to guarantee enough time to raid or not go afk and so remained solo or amongst a group of understanding friends, I was always fully immersed in whichever game served as my current poison, and enjoyed playing to the maximum.
I have enjoyed mmoprgs wherein I have been content in the knowledge that I shall never be party to certain content and have enjoyed conversing with people that have; my own goals were relative to my means. Equally, when my circumstances have allowed I've taken pleasure in being part of something grand and really quite special in the form of raiding (40).
I'm really struggling to find something that has the same soul to it as was abundant just short years ago, and I can but think that this genre is almost expired, or at least it's roots. I'm sure that it will re-invent itself at some point, but perhaps not in the guise that we knew it.
I'm glad people are having fun with new mmorpgs, and wish them the best and hope you have as much fun as I did. I think I'll reluctantly bow out for now though.
I agree with this assessment.
I never remember people complaining about large raids (70+) prior to MMOs going more "mainstream" and attracting the more casual crowd. It was when that casual crowd began playing them that the whole "they're too big! make them smaller so it's easier and faster to get a raid together!" thing started. So they did... and it was okay, for a while... Then the casuals started complaining that 40+ was "too big! make them smaller so it's easier to get a raid together!". And so on.
It's to the point now where, and I kid you not, I've seen various posts on different MMO forums, and some here, I believe, of people arguing that raids should be soloable. Yes, soloable. I can't think of anything more antithetical to the concept of a "raid" than one person fighting a boss.
It's just the way things are going. A large portion of the casual players have that firmly ingrained sense of "me, me, me first" in them and want everything to be designed so they can do it all themself and never have to share or coordinate with anyone else.
And they are *never* happy... at least not for long.
First it was "well, just add some casual content so those of us who don't like large raids can participate, too"
So that was done. There were larger raids, and smaller ones.
That was okay... for a while. But then the "me me me" crowd became unhappy again... Why? Because there was now still content that "they couldn't do" and it was "unfair". So now they started demanding that all large raids be removed or reduced in size so they could do it as well. And those who liked the large raids? Well, tough... they could go find another game. It was all about *them* and what *they* wanted. And what *they* wanted was an easier, faster and more soloable game.
Again, leading up to some now arguing that raids should be soloable. Funny thing is, had anyone said that would be the case 4 or 5 years ago, you'd be laughed at and told to take off the tin-foil hat. But yet, here we are.
I mean, there's been this incredible amount of greed and selfishness coming largely from the casual crowd since MMOs went mainstream. Though some saw the writing on the wall a few years back now, it's funny to see people now starting to say "What happened to MMOs? What happened to the epic battles and having to team up and coordinate with dozens of others to take on massive bosses...?" My answer: Ask the "casuals" who won't be happy until every MMO is a single player game that they can "win" in a month or two and move on to the next one.
I think that raids should have a soloable version, yes.
It has nothing to do with an 'I win' button.
I do not, even in an MMO, ever want to have to rely on someone else to see every bit of content in a game, or have a shot at every piece of loot. So, for me, every single boss, dungeon, and shiny should have a method of being seen/experienced/acquired without ever having to rely on anyone else. If it takes me 5 times a long to see it, get it, solo compared to grouping, that's fine, as long as it's possible.
People often say, let each play the way they want, and that's correct.
Grouping should be done out of choice, and never out of forced design. You should not have to team up in an MMO just because it is an MMO, but because you want to, because that way is more fun for you.
I'm not anti-grouping, I've done lots of raids, and sometimes they are fun. If that's what I'm in the mood for an that's how I want to enjoy my 15 bucks a month. But I should never have to.
I strongly believe that it is possible to make encounters that can be enjoyed by the soloer, by the small group or by the raid without diminishing the experience of each. It just takes some creativity.
The only argument I can't truly refute is this one I see sometimes: "Well, if it can be done solo, then it lessens the accomplishment of the group".
To me, that's silly. Don't concern yourself with how others play their game, just enjoy your own. Which is, kind of my point.
you should have to pvp to pve
fight over boss spawns
well i'm all for games that aren't 1 demensional
i dont like pve, so i shouldn't have too, the same way a pve'er shouldn't have to pvp (god only know why you dont wanna learn to play the game in a manner where you dominate an actual person instead of AI)
games need to work in a way that pvpers dont have to pve, and them winning or controling things opens up something for someone who pves
etc..etc.
you get the idea
pve is boring
it shouldn't be in any game
a real game would have you level up by hunting down and killing other human players
LOL .. you don't like it, you don't have to play PvE game. It turns out LOTS of people like it and we will just ignore you.