I am very concerned about this from the E3 Q&A: Q: What influence have games like World of WarCraft have on the development of FFXIV?
A: As with WoW, we want to aim a bit for the casual user. However, we don't want to make a copy of WoW. We believe we will have things that are unique and will stand out from that game.
From my persective FFXI was very rewarding because it was not dumbed down. So I guess I am asking:
I just don't comprehend since when WoW was viewed as a "casual players'" game.
It's ok, one day all the idiots on this website will realize that "casual" and "hardcore" are not types of games but play styles.
Any game can really be played casually or more feverently.
Some games cater more to one side of the fence, this is true, but a good game, one will real staying power will offer enough for both play styles and everything inbetween.
Hence, the success of WOW versus MMOs that came before it. And why no other MMO has been able to catch up so far.
I have faith in Square Enix and hope they bring something new to the genre, really bring some true innovation yet they are smart enough to know why WOW was successul and avoid making XIV a bad game by ignoring the vast majority of MMO players.
Originally posted by Cynthe Challenge does not equal time sink. Accessibility does not equal dumbed down. Pointless time sinks are a thing of the past, EQ and Ryzom are that way>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not because something is accessible that you are forced to use those options, like teleports. We still don't have a clear idea of the character progression system we know it's not level based. So I think it may be a good idea to forget what we know about FFXI and WoW in terms of leveling and just wait and see.
Exactly. I know this has been quoted a couple times in this thread but it's so intelligent I felt it needed to be quoted again.
Well done Cynthe.
Not giving players any direction does not make a game more challenging, it makes it frustrating and forces you to rely on 3rd party guides and internet sites. You can assume most min/maxers will be scouring the web to find where that special MOB is instead of spending the time to look around, might as well keep them in game instead of alt-tabbed out as much as possible to help build a sense of immersion.
And SE will likely blow us all away with some crazy hybrid class/job/skill system with subjobs and weapons and.. yeah, this is not going to be FFXI or WOW or EQ or even UO style skills.. I have faith Square Enix will give us something new and interesting.
The same way that WoW does? No, since WoW casual design is played by all and mastered by those with excess free time on their hands. In a better way? Yes, hopefully they will make a game that is playable by all and mastered by those with dedication (not just those with more free time). Take UO even back before power hour and all the skill gains been sped up. ANYONE could play it, but only those that were dedicated to playing taking months to years to completely their character could master it. You hardcore nuts don't seam to understand dedication. You only seam to understand wasting excess amounts of time and calling it hardcore.
I dont really see myself as a hardcore nut. And there is nothing really in WoW that I would call "mastering". You can raid with top guilds and be considered a major contributor by logging in 16 hours a week. Much less for arena's. and I wouldn't call that "excess time". I havent played in 2 years but when I quit things were just getting easier. All past accomplishements wiped away by continuously makeing the game less challenging.
And IF FFXIV starts out at the low end of easy, then what is really in it for us?
The same way that WoW does? No, since WoW casual design is played by all and mastered by those with excess free time on their hands. In a better way? Yes, hopefully they will make a game that is playable by all and mastered by those with dedication (not just those with more free time). Take UO even back before power hour and all the skill gains been sped up. ANYONE could play it, but only those that were dedicated to playing taking months to years to completely their character could master it. You hardcore nuts don't seam to understand dedication. You only seam to understand wasting excess amounts of time and calling it hardcore.
I dont really see myself as a hardcore nut. And there is nothing really in WoW that I would call "mastering". You can raid with top guilds and be considered a major contributor by logging in 16 hours a week. Much less for arena's. and I wouldn't call that "excess time". I havent played in 2 years but when I quit things were just getting easier. All past accomplishements wiped away by continuously makeing the game less challenging.
And IF FFXIV starts out at the low end of easy, then what is really in it for us?
I don't understand why you say time spent in an mmo = difficulty.
That is a misconseption that I always found annoying myself. And one of the things that turned me off FFXI was that pretty much everything was a huge time sink, the game was based around it. It didn't necessarily make the game harder, just more tedious.
FFXI had some great concepts, the world, the storyline, the community, all of it was great. But other things like combat, leveling (man I hated leveling in that game), forced party mechanics, where just annoying.
In FFXI if you leveled ANY crafting skill to 100 you had really accomplished something. When someone needed services and you said, "I can get that for you my _________ skill is at 100." They appreciated your hard work and recognised what it took you to get there.
In WoW anyone can level any crafting skill to max in a day. Several times I switched to Leatherworking and leveled it to make a BOP item that was better than what I had. And then switched back the next day to herbalism and leveled it up. If they hadn't limited the number of crafting professions everyone would have every skill maxed when their character got to level. No one cared, and you weren't really much of a benefit to anyone, except maybe yourself.
Thats the main thing I dont want to see in FFXIV. The easy = better attitude.
I don't understand why you say time spent in an mmo = difficulty. That is a misconseption that I always found annoying myself. And one of the things that turned me off FFXI was that pretty much everything was a huge time sink, the game was based around it. It didn't necessarily make the game harder, just more tedious. FFXI had some great concepts, the world, the storyline, the community, all of it was great. But other things like combat, leveling (man I hated leveling in that game), forced party mechanics, where just annoying.
I can almost garauntee you that Square Enix knows this and will make thing like combat, crafting, leveling, and partying vs. soloing much more "modern" and interesting this time around.
They have said "no traditional experience point system" so that already tells me they are trying to get rid of the level grind.
They have said "weapons will be very important to character development" which tells me they'll use some kind of crazy system where your weapon helps define your job/class and it levels up and changes and you gain more access to abilities and such through it.
They have hinted at materia, which is just awesome.
They have hinted the logo means something, so we'll likely see combat that is more about positioning and group tactics.
They have said they want it to be more friendly to players with limited time, I have heard them use the 40 minutes number which tells more a lot more effort will be made to 1) make soling viable and 2) make finding and joining a party, meeting up with them, and doing something worthwhile will be much faster
A lot of people seem to not understand the difference between positive and negative reinforcement.
Negative reinforcement - punish players who don't group up
Positive reinforcement - reward players who do group up
See the difference? Psychologically, people respond a LOT better to Positive reinforcement.
The fact is, the majority of us have lives, and we can't sit down and dedicate 4 hours a night to a stupid game.
I'm pretty sure we all know this is the case. Different people have different amounts of time to spend on their hobbies. Some have more time, some have less time. That is life.
The thing is, if you're someone who doesn't have time to spend "hardcore" hours in one game, how are you going to find time to play more than one game? I don't believe that person can.
Which begs the question: Why then must every game being developed be made for casual gamers who hardly have time for one game?
Playing | GW2 Wanting | Pantheon Watching | Crowfall Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
I don't understand why you say time spent in an mmo = difficulty. That is a misconseption that I always found annoying myself. And one of the things that turned me off FFXI was that pretty much everything was a huge time sink, the game was based around it. It didn't necessarily make the game harder, just more tedious. FFXI had some great concepts, the world, the storyline, the community, all of it was great. But other things like combat, leveling (man I hated leveling in that game), forced party mechanics, where just annoying.
I was referring to Venger's numerous references to "excess amounts of time" in relation to WoW.
I myself believe that humans are only happy when overcoming adversity. If a game had no levels, no challenges, just rewards that you could press a button to recieve, you wouldnt play it very long. There has to be adversity to make a game rewarding, whether its taking the time to figure out a puzzle, following the instructions of a quest giver, or battling foes that offer a challenge.
Bottom line is it takes time to overcome challenges! No matter how they present themselves. And much more often than not the more time spent the greater the reward.
The chances that SE looked at WoW for some part of development into FFXIV is very likely, but it isn't going to be targeting the same ideas at all. Think of WoW as the elephant in the room in the world of MMOs. You just can't ignore it :-P but chances are SE isn't going for the same kind of gameplay at all and they've got something new in mind.
I'd just like to add I think grouping will still be a very rewarding and fun experience and I expect no less then strategic and dynamic group play, enough with the senseless button mashing. I love this about FFXI when you use your skills it really matters and has a purpose.
It's ok, one day all the idiots on this website will realize that "casual" and "hardcore" are not types of games but play styles. Any game can really be played casually or more feverently. Some games cater more to one side of the fence, this is true, but a good game, one will real staying power will offer enough for both play styles and everything inbetween. Hence, the success of WOW versus MMOs that came before it. And why no other MMO has been able to catch up so far. I have faith in Square Enix and hope they bring something new to the genre, really bring some true innovation yet they are smart enough to know why WOW was successul and avoid making XIV a bad game by ignoring the vast majority of MMO players.
The fact is that casual games cater to and reward casual players. Those same games offer nothing for player who want to play them "more feverently" because her/his style of play is just wasted after a certain point. Same thing goes the other way FFXI offered nothing for the casual player. Hence the common knowledge that their are "casual" and "hardcore" games.
I completely agree with your statement that "but a good game, one will real staying power will offer enough for both play styles and everything in between." but what game to date has done this?
Well I just saw the title and dropped in. I've played WoW and FFXI and I've been playing FF games since I was 8 years old. With all due respect to Blizzard. SCREW WOW, this is Final Fantasy. So I hope that this new one is nothing like WoW. And honestly, if a few casual players don't like it, I have nothing against them. If they don't think it's got enough gear aquisition and EXP grind, then go play WoW or one of the billions of free grindfest MMO's.
Final Fantasy has always been very story and setting intensive. I hope they can maintain that model. I don't want to see the product line descend into the daily grind of WoW.
I'd just like to add I think grouping will still be a very rewarding and fun experience and I expect no less then strategic and dynamic group play, enough with the senseless button mashing. I love this about FFXI when you use your skills it really matters and has a purpose.
All I can think about is the Warlock class from WoW... just run your finger from 1-0 on the top of the keyboard and you win
Well I just saw the title and dropped in. I've played WoW and FFXI and I've been playing FF games since I was 8 years old. With all due respect to Blizzard. SCREW WOW, this is Final Fantasy. So I hope that this new one is nothing like WoW. And honestly, if a few casual players don't like it, I have nothing against them. If they don't think it's got enough gear aquisition and EXP grind, then go play WoW or one of the billions of free grindfest MMO's.
Final Fantasy has always been very story and setting intensive. I hope they can maintain that model. I don't want to see the product line descend into the daily grind of WoW.
Theres nothing casual about WOW... not if you want a very well equiped character.. Sure enough skill will get you so far, but without decent gear.. you are limited.. and of course gear = time - Time spend grinding gear = time wasted that could be spent doing something worthwile in the world...
Originally posted by neKrow I completely agree with your statement that "but a good game, one will real staying power will offer enough for both play styles and everything in between." but what game to date has done this?
Most people would answer that question with World of Warcraft.
The game catered a lot more to the "hardcore" crowd when it was young. Anyone with any epics from Raiding was respected. Anyone with PvP titles was respected because you had to literally kill almost non-stop to get the highest ranks.
There were so many time sinks and attunement quest chains and gear grinds and all that other "hardcore" stuff ya'll are asking for.
There was forced grouping for dungeons as you leveled and elite level quests. On PvP servers you'd never wander alone in those days due to all the rampant ganking by higher level players.
As the game has progressed they have removed a lot of the pointless time sinks and tedius and unnesseccary obsticles that kept a lot of people from playing the game.
But all the "hardcore" elements still exist in the game. "Maxing out" a character in terms of reputation, money, gear, achievements, titles, etc. requires extreme dedication, skill at playing the game, and a lot of time invested.
World of Warcraft is so succesful because it really does have a lot of stuff that caters to both the hardcore and casual crowd.
I'd go as far to say that the only thing about the game that isn't all that hardcore is that you can level up solo just by doing quests and killing mobs, avoiding group quests and dungeons....
But that's not the way it's always been, and they've only changed it to this way because the game is 5 years old and they have chosen to focus their development time and money and effort on the 90% or more of players that are at the level cap, which is just smart business.
First of all even if it is slightly more causual that doesn't make it like WoW. But I digress. If it did it right it could do it better than WoW. Right now WoW is for causual gamers and then when it gets to max level it's very hardcore. In WoW i found there was no middle ground. When i got to the max level I was stuck because I wan't hardcore enough to do the big raids and stuff but the casual aspect had gotten me to the end. Like I said i was stuck. I never had the gear required to do raids ect... once or twice but i was bored most of the time.
FFXI I think does this well because you can solo at the beginning and then you need to work with others mostly in order to get far. Things get progressively more difficult. I never felt stuck even in more difficult levels because there was always people there. People had to work together more and would stay together sometimes for the entire day. In WoW you run your instance and people level. Or if you die they'll just quit and go back to soloing. I like that in FFXI that you had to stick it out and stuff to get anywhere.
Anyway I'm kidna rambling... no I don't think WoW is a bad game it's one of my favorite MMOs and so is FFXI but
I don't think they are same and I don't think FFXIV will be like WoW because it stands for something completely different.
I'll be honest, I never played WoW for longer than a month, so I can't say anything on behalf of WoW. On the other hand, I played FFXI from 2004-2009 (recently took a hiatus). I spent a ton of time in FFXI, and as a result amassed 7 75's, logged countless hours exping, and camped/claimed multiple HNM's. The thing I enjoyed most about FFXI was the fact that nothing in the game came easy. No matter what you did, from missions to NM's, everything was challenging and really made you stay on your toes and actually pay due diligence. Being a challenging game, one that requires you to focus actually, really makes the game more immersive.
When playing games like AoC (4 Months), or LoTRO (6 Months), I found myself almost like a drone, just hitting my abilities, picking up loot, and finishing quests that just seemed like the same thing over and over. The missions in FFXI all felt different, and all played out differently, and even though they didn't yield your main source of exp, gear, or money, the ability to access an exclusive area, or exclusive item once completed, paid for all the time you put forth. Imagining a game like FFXI being turned into another AoC or LoTRO just doesn't compute for me, and I still believe that SE will be able to find that balance of having people who can solo, and those who can choose to group.
Killing an HNM in FFXI was pretty much one of the most gratifying experiences I've had in any game, ever. Sometimes camping for 3 hours to claim a 7th-day Nidhogg are just some things you'll never forget. Once the window opened, everyone in that whole area had that same rush of hoping it would pop so they could claim it for their LS. How many games have the ability to say that they do that? And once you were in the midst of a fight, you weren't simply mashing buttons in an attempt to have the most DPS, you had to hold back, let the tank establish hate, and then when the Skillchain was ready, you did your Weapon skill, or got ready to Magic burst. So much more went into an actual fight than any other game I've ever played.
I understand the need for the casual path for some gamers. Hell, there were times in FFXI where I logged in just to do one campaign and then logged, so having that ability to get some nice exp in an hour's time would be nice. But, they still need to keep in mind what made FFXI so successful, the difficulty and the immersiveness of having a game that nothing comes easy, which makes it more gratifying in the end.
I agree with what you said as well. It was set up in a way that did no feel mechanical. It's the only MMO I've played where I didn't feel rushed by the MMO itself to level up as fast as I can. I could camp stuff, explore, help others, whatever.
I think the beauty of FFXI was the challenge of the game.
This. The thing that really set FFXI apart from other games is how challenging the game can be, especially in some of the boss fights and of course, Maat. I don't want them to lose touch of this completely, but a little softening up would allow for more versatility in the entire game.
For me its a troubling issue, because from a part-time roleplayer standpoint, the difficulty brings out the most in the min-maxers and if I wanna play a paladin with a great sword, good luck getting a party outside of my friends. The "hardcore" factor can be toned down slightly without losing the refreshing challenge it offered, I feel. At the same time, too easy and the game becomes a joke. A very pretty joke!
*snip* I spent a ton of time in FFXI, and as a result amassed 7 75's *snip*
OMG, /bow. now THAT is impressive!!!
EDIT: After reading your post in full I would have to say that it is one of the best posts I have read in a long time. You took the time to point out exactly what made FFXI great. Thank you.
I think most can agree that what we really want for FF XIV is balance.
We don't want things too tedius that the difficulty/challenge is having the patience to suffer through pointless time sinks.
But we also don't want things to come to easily so we lose the sense of accomplishment and true reward for the risks.
A lot of MMO players who are tired of the grind want something new that will give them enough to have months/years of fun, and we've probably all been let down by a new MMO released in the past couple of years so we're a bit jaded.
SE has said that they want FF XIV to be about the journey. They want the game to be about story and character development. These two principles have always been at the core of all the Final Fantasy RPGs, offline or otherwise.
Couple this with what SE has said about weapons and studying the logo for clues and not having traditional experience points and such and it leads me to believe is that FF XIV is going to be something unlike any MMORPG we have scene before.
The MMO genre has evolved a lot since the early days, some don't like where it has gone or think it's gone too far while others think it hasn't evolved enough.
FFXIV will not be FF XI nor will it be WOW. SE will take lessons learned from the success and love of both and every other MMO and create a new game with a lot of new twists and innovations to seperate itself from the crowded MMO market.
To be honest I do want this game to be developed twords are more casual audience, while keeping some of it's harder, more difficult aspects. I don't personally have the time to sit around for 10 hours a day to only accomplish a small bit in a game. I feel like the days of MMORPG's like that is pretty much coming to a close.
I don't think FFXIV needs to have "balance." I think it should mostly stick to what it does. When it try to find balance it ends up pleasing no one. Or everyone but for a short period. A game will fail if it trys to please everyone. It should find it's nitch and stick to it. Doesn't mean they can't have a few soloable stuff here and there but they need to stick to one thing... not a "mixture of both" it really just wont work. The idea makes sense, but the execution. That's my opinion.
Comments
I just don't comprehend since when WoW was viewed as a "casual players'" game.
It's ok, one day all the idiots on this website will realize that "casual" and "hardcore" are not types of games but play styles.
Any game can really be played casually or more feverently.
Some games cater more to one side of the fence, this is true, but a good game, one will real staying power will offer enough for both play styles and everything inbetween.
Hence, the success of WOW versus MMOs that came before it. And why no other MMO has been able to catch up so far.
I have faith in Square Enix and hope they bring something new to the genre, really bring some true innovation yet they are smart enough to know why WOW was successul and avoid making XIV a bad game by ignoring the vast majority of MMO players.
Exactly. I know this has been quoted a couple times in this thread but it's so intelligent I felt it needed to be quoted again.
Well done Cynthe.
Not giving players any direction does not make a game more challenging, it makes it frustrating and forces you to rely on 3rd party guides and internet sites. You can assume most min/maxers will be scouring the web to find where that special MOB is instead of spending the time to look around, might as well keep them in game instead of alt-tabbed out as much as possible to help build a sense of immersion.
And SE will likely blow us all away with some crazy hybrid class/job/skill system with subjobs and weapons and.. yeah, this is not going to be FFXI or WOW or EQ or even UO style skills.. I have faith Square Enix will give us something new and interesting.
I dont really see myself as a hardcore nut. And there is nothing really in WoW that I would call "mastering". You can raid with top guilds and be considered a major contributor by logging in 16 hours a week. Much less for arena's. and I wouldn't call that "excess time". I havent played in 2 years but when I quit things were just getting easier. All past accomplishements wiped away by continuously makeing the game less challenging.
And IF FFXIV starts out at the low end of easy, then what is really in it for us?
I dont really see myself as a hardcore nut. And there is nothing really in WoW that I would call "mastering". You can raid with top guilds and be considered a major contributor by logging in 16 hours a week. Much less for arena's. and I wouldn't call that "excess time". I havent played in 2 years but when I quit things were just getting easier. All past accomplishements wiped away by continuously makeing the game less challenging.
And IF FFXIV starts out at the low end of easy, then what is really in it for us?
I don't understand why you say time spent in an mmo = difficulty.
That is a misconseption that I always found annoying myself. And one of the things that turned me off FFXI was that pretty much everything was a huge time sink, the game was based around it. It didn't necessarily make the game harder, just more tedious.
FFXI had some great concepts, the world, the storyline, the community, all of it was great. But other things like combat, leveling (man I hated leveling in that game), forced party mechanics, where just annoying.
I mean look at crafting for example.
In FFXI if you leveled ANY crafting skill to 100 you had really accomplished something. When someone needed services and you said, "I can get that for you my _________ skill is at 100." They appreciated your hard work and recognised what it took you to get there.
In WoW anyone can level any crafting skill to max in a day. Several times I switched to Leatherworking and leveled it to make a BOP item that was better than what I had. And then switched back the next day to herbalism and leveled it up. If they hadn't limited the number of crafting professions everyone would have every skill maxed when their character got to level. No one cared, and you weren't really much of a benefit to anyone, except maybe yourself.
Thats the main thing I dont want to see in FFXIV. The easy = better attitude.
I can almost garauntee you that Square Enix knows this and will make thing like combat, crafting, leveling, and partying vs. soloing much more "modern" and interesting this time around.
They have said "no traditional experience point system" so that already tells me they are trying to get rid of the level grind.
They have said "weapons will be very important to character development" which tells me they'll use some kind of crazy system where your weapon helps define your job/class and it levels up and changes and you gain more access to abilities and such through it.
They have hinted at materia, which is just awesome.
They have hinted the logo means something, so we'll likely see combat that is more about positioning and group tactics.
They have said they want it to be more friendly to players with limited time, I have heard them use the 40 minutes number which tells more a lot more effort will be made to 1) make soling viable and 2) make finding and joining a party, meeting up with them, and doing something worthwhile will be much faster
A lot of people seem to not understand the difference between positive and negative reinforcement.
Negative reinforcement - punish players who don't group up
Positive reinforcement - reward players who do group up
See the difference? Psychologically, people respond a LOT better to Positive reinforcement.
I'm pretty sure we all know this is the case. Different people have different amounts of time to spend on their hobbies. Some have more time, some have less time. That is life.
The thing is, if you're someone who doesn't have time to spend "hardcore" hours in one game, how are you going to find time to play more than one game? I don't believe that person can.
Which begs the question: Why then must every game being developed be made for casual gamers who hardly have time for one game?
Playing | GW2
Wanting | Pantheon
Watching | Crowfall
Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
I was referring to Venger's numerous references to "excess amounts of time" in relation to WoW.
I myself believe that humans are only happy when overcoming adversity. If a game had no levels, no challenges, just rewards that you could press a button to recieve, you wouldnt play it very long. There has to be adversity to make a game rewarding, whether its taking the time to figure out a puzzle, following the instructions of a quest giver, or battling foes that offer a challenge.
Bottom line is it takes time to overcome challenges! No matter how they present themselves. And much more often than not the more time spent the greater the reward.
The chances that SE looked at WoW for some part of development into FFXIV is very likely, but it isn't going to be targeting the same ideas at all. Think of WoW as the elephant in the room in the world of MMOs. You just can't ignore it :-P but chances are SE isn't going for the same kind of gameplay at all and they've got something new in mind.
I'd just like to add I think grouping will still be a very rewarding and fun experience and I expect no less then strategic and dynamic group play, enough with the senseless button mashing. I love this about FFXI when you use your skills it really matters and has a purpose.
(,,,)=^__^=(,,,)
The fact is that casual games cater to and reward casual players. Those same games offer nothing for player who want to play them "more feverently" because her/his style of play is just wasted after a certain point. Same thing goes the other way FFXI offered nothing for the casual player. Hence the common knowledge that their are "casual" and "hardcore" games.
I completely agree with your statement that "but a good game, one will real staying power will offer enough for both play styles and everything in between." but what game to date has done this?
Well I just saw the title and dropped in. I've played WoW and FFXI and I've been playing FF games since I was 8 years old. With all due respect to Blizzard. SCREW WOW, this is Final Fantasy. So I hope that this new one is nothing like WoW. And honestly, if a few casual players don't like it, I have nothing against them. If they don't think it's got enough gear aquisition and EXP grind, then go play WoW or one of the billions of free grindfest MMO's.
Final Fantasy has always been very story and setting intensive. I hope they can maintain that model. I don't want to see the product line descend into the daily grind of WoW.
All I can think about is the Warlock class from WoW... just run your finger from 1-0 on the top of the keyboard and you win
Yeah... I really don't want that in FFXIV :-(
Amen!
Theres nothing casual about WOW... not if you want a very well equiped character.. Sure enough skill will get you so far, but without decent gear.. you are limited.. and of course gear = time - Time spend grinding gear = time wasted that could be spent doing something worthwile in the world...
Most people would answer that question with World of Warcraft.
The game catered a lot more to the "hardcore" crowd when it was young. Anyone with any epics from Raiding was respected. Anyone with PvP titles was respected because you had to literally kill almost non-stop to get the highest ranks.
There were so many time sinks and attunement quest chains and gear grinds and all that other "hardcore" stuff ya'll are asking for.
There was forced grouping for dungeons as you leveled and elite level quests. On PvP servers you'd never wander alone in those days due to all the rampant ganking by higher level players.
As the game has progressed they have removed a lot of the pointless time sinks and tedius and unnesseccary obsticles that kept a lot of people from playing the game.
But all the "hardcore" elements still exist in the game. "Maxing out" a character in terms of reputation, money, gear, achievements, titles, etc. requires extreme dedication, skill at playing the game, and a lot of time invested.
World of Warcraft is so succesful because it really does have a lot of stuff that caters to both the hardcore and casual crowd.
I'd go as far to say that the only thing about the game that isn't all that hardcore is that you can level up solo just by doing quests and killing mobs, avoiding group quests and dungeons....
But that's not the way it's always been, and they've only changed it to this way because the game is 5 years old and they have chosen to focus their development time and money and effort on the 90% or more of players that are at the level cap, which is just smart business.
First of all even if it is slightly more causual that doesn't make it like WoW. But I digress. If it did it right it could do it better than WoW. Right now WoW is for causual gamers and then when it gets to max level it's very hardcore. In WoW i found there was no middle ground. When i got to the max level I was stuck because I wan't hardcore enough to do the big raids and stuff but the casual aspect had gotten me to the end. Like I said i was stuck. I never had the gear required to do raids ect... once or twice but i was bored most of the time.
FFXI I think does this well because you can solo at the beginning and then you need to work with others mostly in order to get far. Things get progressively more difficult. I never felt stuck even in more difficult levels because there was always people there. People had to work together more and would stay together sometimes for the entire day. In WoW you run your instance and people level. Or if you die they'll just quit and go back to soloing. I like that in FFXI that you had to stick it out and stuff to get anywhere.
Anyway I'm kidna rambling... no I don't think WoW is a bad game it's one of my favorite MMOs and so is FFXI but
I don't think they are same and I don't think FFXIV will be like WoW because it stands for something completely different.
I'll be honest, I never played WoW for longer than a month, so I can't say anything on behalf of WoW. On the other hand, I played FFXI from 2004-2009 (recently took a hiatus). I spent a ton of time in FFXI, and as a result amassed 7 75's, logged countless hours exping, and camped/claimed multiple HNM's. The thing I enjoyed most about FFXI was the fact that nothing in the game came easy. No matter what you did, from missions to NM's, everything was challenging and really made you stay on your toes and actually pay due diligence. Being a challenging game, one that requires you to focus actually, really makes the game more immersive.
When playing games like AoC (4 Months), or LoTRO (6 Months), I found myself almost like a drone, just hitting my abilities, picking up loot, and finishing quests that just seemed like the same thing over and over. The missions in FFXI all felt different, and all played out differently, and even though they didn't yield your main source of exp, gear, or money, the ability to access an exclusive area, or exclusive item once completed, paid for all the time you put forth. Imagining a game like FFXI being turned into another AoC or LoTRO just doesn't compute for me, and I still believe that SE will be able to find that balance of having people who can solo, and those who can choose to group.
Killing an HNM in FFXI was pretty much one of the most gratifying experiences I've had in any game, ever. Sometimes camping for 3 hours to claim a 7th-day Nidhogg are just some things you'll never forget. Once the window opened, everyone in that whole area had that same rush of hoping it would pop so they could claim it for their LS. How many games have the ability to say that they do that? And once you were in the midst of a fight, you weren't simply mashing buttons in an attempt to have the most DPS, you had to hold back, let the tank establish hate, and then when the Skillchain was ready, you did your Weapon skill, or got ready to Magic burst. So much more went into an actual fight than any other game I've ever played.
I understand the need for the casual path for some gamers. Hell, there were times in FFXI where I logged in just to do one campaign and then logged, so having that ability to get some nice exp in an hour's time would be nice. But, they still need to keep in mind what made FFXI so successful, the difficulty and the immersiveness of having a game that nothing comes easy, which makes it more gratifying in the end.
I agree with what you said as well. It was set up in a way that did no feel mechanical. It's the only MMO I've played where I didn't feel rushed by the MMO itself to level up as fast as I can. I could camp stuff, explore, help others, whatever.
This. The thing that really set FFXI apart from other games is how challenging the game can be, especially in some of the boss fights and of course, Maat. I don't want them to lose touch of this completely, but a little softening up would allow for more versatility in the entire game.
For me its a troubling issue, because from a part-time roleplayer standpoint, the difficulty brings out the most in the min-maxers and if I wanna play a paladin with a great sword, good luck getting a party outside of my friends. The "hardcore" factor can be toned down slightly without losing the refreshing challenge it offered, I feel. At the same time, too easy and the game becomes a joke. A very pretty joke!
OMG, /bow. now THAT is impressive!!!
EDIT: After reading your post in full I would have to say that it is one of the best posts I have read in a long time. You took the time to point out exactly what made FFXI great. Thank you.
I think most can agree that what we really want for FF XIV is balance.
We don't want things too tedius that the difficulty/challenge is having the patience to suffer through pointless time sinks.
But we also don't want things to come to easily so we lose the sense of accomplishment and true reward for the risks.
A lot of MMO players who are tired of the grind want something new that will give them enough to have months/years of fun, and we've probably all been let down by a new MMO released in the past couple of years so we're a bit jaded.
SE has said that they want FF XIV to be about the journey. They want the game to be about story and character development. These two principles have always been at the core of all the Final Fantasy RPGs, offline or otherwise.
Couple this with what SE has said about weapons and studying the logo for clues and not having traditional experience points and such and it leads me to believe is that FF XIV is going to be something unlike any MMORPG we have scene before.
The MMO genre has evolved a lot since the early days, some don't like where it has gone or think it's gone too far while others think it hasn't evolved enough.
FFXIV will not be FF XI nor will it be WOW. SE will take lessons learned from the success and love of both and every other MMO and create a new game with a lot of new twists and innovations to seperate itself from the crowded MMO market.
To be honest I do want this game to be developed twords are more casual audience, while keeping some of it's harder, more difficult aspects. I don't personally have the time to sit around for 10 hours a day to only accomplish a small bit in a game. I feel like the days of MMORPG's like that is pretty much coming to a close.
What are the pointless time sinks that you would like to avoid?
An MMO could be called a time sink in itself.
I don't think FFXIV needs to have "balance." I think it should mostly stick to what it does. When it try to find balance it ends up pleasing no one. Or everyone but for a short period. A game will fail if it trys to please everyone. It should find it's nitch and stick to it. Doesn't mean they can't have a few soloable stuff here and there but they need to stick to one thing... not a "mixture of both" it really just wont work. The idea makes sense, but the execution. That's my opinion.