What makes EVE a sandbox?

Gintoh · July 2009

I was always confused as to what Sandbox means. So...lets compare eve to say WoW a game that is cited as a "theme park" game, what things does EVE have in it that are different than WoW that make it a sandbox?

miagisan · July 2009

Originally posted by Gintoh

I was always confused as to what Sandbox means. So...lets compare eve to say WoW a game that is cited as a "theme park" game, what things does EVE have in it that are different than WoW that make it a sandbox?

1) you can do whatever you wanna do

2) no classes

3) pick any skill you want, or any ship you want and train

4) influence the universe, taking over land, building space stations, trade routes, etc

5) Explore, produce, mine, kill, do whatever your heart can thing of (even smuggle)

There is no confined class, or quest or leveling, you do what you please when you please

Total freedom

Nicksd · July 2009

I am terrible at explaining so I will post a quote from a diff site that I think works pretty well

"A sandbox MMO is a game that drops you into a player driven world. Players are given tools, and sand, and they get to make whatever they want with it. just like when you were a kid in your sandbox with a shovel and pail. You didn't have much fancy stuff, but you had fun.

a non-sandbox MMO has already made all the fun for you, there is no sand, its a playground or a "themepark". its not about you creating content, its about having fun with what the devs made. like when you used to climb around on the monkey bars or whatever."

Brif · July 2009

EVE isn't a sandbox, it's a linear space racing game.

Sigrand · July 2009

Eve gives you a blank canvas and says "Do what you want." You aren't forced in to any particular playstyle. You can play however you want without being forced to grind levels or build skills that you don't want to. Like someone said earlier, a sandbox game gives you the tools necessary to create your own fun.

Think of themepark games like WoW as themeparks (crazy right? lol). Like a rollercoaster. It can be a lot of fun but it doesn't change no matter how many times you do it. For a lot of players like myself this gets boring quickly. In themepark games the devs decide what you will do and when and the players are given little freedom, which is fine. A lot of the times they'll design a fun time for you.

The names are fairly direct.

Sandbox - Build your own fun with the resources available to you. Affect your enviornment.

Themepark - Follow the designated path planned out for you by the developers. The rides never change, only a few more rides are added as you go.

miagisan · July 2009

Originally posted by Brif

EVE isn't a sandbox, it's a linear space racing game.

i would love to hear this explanation

qazyman · July 2009

To me, it's that some games force you to create outcomes and goals within the framework they provide. Others, force you to play the goals and outcomes they have created. I do think CCP does everything it can to create the trappings of traditional game play (much to the dislike of many). In the end tho EVE is very much BYOG. This is why EVE is such a social game and why many find it boring. Look at the politics and empire building in EVE. This only happens because people decide to do these things. There is very little internal force with in the game driving people to do it. In fact, CCP usually follows the lead of the players and adds content they think will help players do the things they are all ready doing. I think more traditional games create content that they expect the players to then play.

Great question, wish I could answer it better. Maybe others can.

demented669 · July 2009

sandbox = a game world with a set of rules and toys and lets you chose how to use them

theme park = a world with a set of rules and toys but tells you how to use them and shows you a path to follow

some people like sandbox some like theme parks some like a mix of the two so is one type better then the other, i have to say no it all depends on how you like to play or how much time you have to put into a game.

Kyleran · July 2009

Since there is no agreed upon definition of what a sandbox game is, there tends to be quite a difference of opinion and I've see people argue that WOW is a sandbox game. (its not, IMO)

Many posters will quote you the "features" of a sandbox game (no classes or levels, freedom to pursue your own path, not quest driven etc) and they are correct. But how many features (or toys) does a game need to be considered a sandbox? That's the dilema one faces.

I like this model the best.

Less Sandbox Features More Sandbox Features

<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

WOW LotRO AOC CoX Lineage 2 Darkfall EVE UO

Placement of the above games is not scientific or even well thought out, just a represention for my example.

IMO opinion, the games on the right allow more player freedom and more tools which are used to create the gaming experience.

The games on the left have fewer tools, follow a more linear progression, and are more themepark in their approach.

Each game style has its merits, and both types can be fun.

Enkindu · July 2009

A sandbox game is one where about half of the new players end up on a forum after a couple days posting "I can't figure out what I'm supposed to do next!"

Just kiddin : )

I think of it as a theme park vs. a national park..

You go to Busch Gardens and you follow the map around and ride all the rides, see the shows, etc.

You show up at Yosemite with your pack and your rack and the rest is up to you.. go climb a mountain, camp by a river, get eaten by a grizzly bear... the possibilities are endless ; )

Gintoh · July 2009

"you can Explore, produce, mine, kill, do whatever your heart can thing of (even smuggle)" can't you do that in WoW?

People say they give you the tools to make your own adventure, what are those tools? How can you change the game world in EVE? Can you change the story of the game? Aren't their quests in Eve, making it have themepark elements? What makes WoW quests different then EVE quests?

Czech · July 2009

People say they give you the tools to make your own adventure, what are those tools? How can you change the game world in EVE? Can you change the story of the game? Aren't their quests in Eve, making it have themepark elements? What makes WoW quests different then EVE quests?

Well, think of real life, what can you do in real life? You can study, you can work, you can teach, you can play... The game gives you lots to study and learn, you have to "work" to make money (lots of ways of making money). Teach - teach players that are new to the game how to play the game. Play - well play with noobs who don't know the game. The basic tools in eve are: Ships, weapons, minning lasers and ultimately... your brain And scamming is allowed.

You can change the game world by creating a corp, an alliance, organizing them, taking over posses and gaining soveregnity. Well you can do that in multiple ways. You can try to manipulate the market. You can even manipulate war if you have control over some resorces that other depend upon.

The game does have lore, but no, you don't have direct impact on it. It's more like who's got the biggest alliance that matters in game

Not really quests. There are multiple ways of making money in eve, which is the ultimate goal, the more money you have the better for you In WoW you have levels and loot, you can only lvl by doing quests or by grinding mobs your lvl until you get to highest level and can then get loot by pvping or raiding.

Again eve doesn't really have quests, just different ways of gaining power and experience.

qazyman · July 2009

I have always felt one of the main reasons EVE has missions is to give players from other games a point of reference. Something they can relate too. I also feel very strongly, and I know I'm not alone, that if you only run missions you are not playing EVE. I don't think many WOW players would say that about WOW.

Also, there are many aspects to EVE that are totally player driven. The game provides a base set of items, but players use these items to produce many things that are then used to produce other things. In the end, you have whole areas of the market that are completely driven by the players.

The direction of the game is directly related to the actions players take. If players choose to just run missions, join null sec alliances, pirate in low sec or play the market in jita. These things have a direct impact on major power blocs and the direction the game takes.

If a large group of players decided they wanted to exploit wormhole mining and build up vast fortunes you would instantly see corporations and industries pop up to exploit this wealth and the whole of eve would move in a new direction.

If players decided they didn't want to run missions, the price of minerals and ships would go thru the roof forcing people to mine more and again the direction of the game would change.

Sentinel0 · July 2009

Eve is hardly a sandbox. It's just the most "sandboxy" mmo in the market to day.

Even though you are free to chose what skills to learn you are still inevitably forced into a well defined path. This is because you need to compete with players older than you meaning you're forced to specialized. There are several PVP paths but they generally go like this:

Frig > Cruiser > Battle Cruiser > Battleship (Amar) > Dreadnaught (Amar).

Gun(lazors) > drones(Galante) > mechanic > navigation.

After Battleship 5 most people will chose either Capital ship training or T2 ship training at which they specialize into the few T2 ships that's worth getting. IE HAC, Interceptor, Assault Frig, Recon and Heavy Interdictor.

There is no support role below Capital ship level. Not since they nerfed the Falcan.

Non PVP usally goes like:

Caldari Frig, Caldari Cruiser > Drake > Raven

Missile > Shields

There's various non-combat roles such as Minning, industry and trade. Overall that's just an expanded version of crafting, nothing more.

All in all, not exactly Sandbox but it's definitly a lot deeper than anything you'll find on the market. Of course you pay for that delpth just as much as you would pay for the breadth of content in the "theme park" games.

Kyleran · July 2009

Originally posted by Gintoh

"you can Explore, produce, mine, kill, do whatever your heart can thing of (even smuggle)" can't you do that in WoW? - Yes and No. The tools look similar in both games, but they are not the same.
People say they give you the tools to make your own adventure, what are those tools?
They are almost too numerous to document, some I'll describe below, others have been provided by other posters. Suffice it to say EVE has more occupations and tools to support them than most any other game out there.
How can you change the game world in EVE?
Players can actually create bases in 0.0 out of the materials they mine/manufacture. Once built, these bases can never be destroyed, only captured and controlled by other corporations and they are fought over constantly. You also can put player owned stations in systems (POS's) which help you control soverignty which lets you place certain defences in place to defend your bases, or help you mine ore, manufacture top end ships and gear. Msssive battles by hundreds if not thousands of ships occur regularly to try and take control of 0.0 space and its bases.
Can you change the story of the game?
Absolutely. Because the story is made by the players, not the Developers. There have been titanic wars for control of 0.0, with stories of heroes and villains, corp thefts of epic proportions (the games strongest alliance was brought down by a single traitor), epic business scams and conquests. A player can theoretically join the game today with the goal of running the strongest alliance of corporations in the game, and actually pull it off with the right combination of cunning, charisma and might.
Aren't their quests in Eve, making it have themepark elements? What makes WoW quests different then EVE quests?
Yes, but they don't serve the same purpose. In WOW, the best and fastest way to advance your character is to do the quests they lay out for you, in the order they lay out for you (based on your level) and if you pay attention, they tell a story. The only thing a player earns from quests in EVE is money. (and sometimes items, which are the same as money). There are levels to the quests (we call them mission) but they just allow you to grind larger amounts of money more quickly.

But the real difference is you don't have to do the missions to advance your character. (which really isnt a viable option in WOW if you play the game the way it was designed)

Some players prefer to earn their money mining. Oh, but WOW has mining. Yes, but it is so simplistic. EVE mining involves training specific skills for various types of ores, and training up skills to refine the ore you and others collect. Those ores are used as the foundation to build everything in EVE, from the ships, to the T2 modules to the POS's and the Bases. Think of WOW as a very simplified variant of EVE and you'll get a bit of an idea.

But hey, not everyone wants to mine or run missions. Some folks go to low sec regions and rat faction NPC's for high end module drops all the while scanning local frantically to make sure a pirate doesn't show up to kill them and take their loot.

Yes, you can explore in WOW, but what does that get you? In EVE players explore and find complexes, anomolies and wormholes to wspace which is loaded with alien npc's and strange new technology. They can exploit their explorations, share with corp mates, or even sell the information to the highest bidder.

How about ttrading? Sure, you can trade in WOW to make some money, but EVE's trading involves actually training up skills that extend the range of your trades, lets you create contracts of all types, haul materials to war zones for higher mark-ups or stockpile remote stations with standard gear which sells at great mark ups.

Crafting, sure WOW has it, but EVE has so many levels of complexity entire guides are written on how to do various elements of it. Heck, EVE's best mining guide is 40 pages long, and even it doesn't cover every nuance of mining.

Its so hard to explain EVE and its differences to one who's never played anytning besides games modeled after WOW, but I think most gamers out there will agree, EVE is one of the premier sand-box type games out there today.

LynxJSA · July 2009

Originally posted by Nicksd

I am terrible at explaining so I will post a quote from a diff site that I think works pretty well

"A sandbox MMO is a game that drops you into a player driven world. Players are given tools, and sand, and they get to make whatever they want with it. just like when you were a kid in your sandbox with a shovel and pail. You didn't have much fancy stuff, but you had fun.
a non-sandbox MMO has already made all the fun for you, there is no sand, its a playground or a "themepark". its not about you creating content, its about having fun with what the devs made. like when you used to climb around on the monkey bars or whatever."

I'd say that pretty much sums it up. On provides the tools to let players manipulate the game world and the other provides a guided tour of entertainment.

miagisan · July 2009

Originally posted by Sentinel0

Eve is hardly a sandbox. It's just the most "sandboxy" mmo in the market to day.
Even though you are free to chose what skills to learn you are still inevitably forced into a well defined path. This is because you need to compete with players older than you meaning you're forced to specialized. There are several PVP paths but they generally go like this:

Frig > Cruiser > Battle Cruiser > Battleship (Amar) > Dreadnaught (Amar).
Gun(lazors) > drones(Galante) > mechanic > navigation.
After Battleship 5 most people will chose either Capital ship training or T2 ship training at which they specialize into the few T2 ships that's worth getting. IE HAC, Interceptor, Assault Frig, Recon and Heavy Interdictor.
There is no support role below Capital ship level. Not since they nerfed the Falcan.

Non PVP usally goes like:
Caldari Frig, Caldari Cruiser > Drake > Raven
Missile > Shields

There's various non-combat roles such as Minning, industry and trade. Overall that's just an expanded version of crafting, nothing more.

All in all, not exactly Sandbox but it's definitly a lot deeper than anything you'll find on the market. Of course you pay for that delpth just as much as you would pay for the breadth of content in the "theme park" games.

really? thats odd...my blackops player went from frig to stealth bomber to force recon to black ops

my miner went from miner, exhumer and then i swtiched to an orca, and now a freighter

my cap ship pilot went from frig to battlecruiser to battleship to drednaught, pondering either a carrier or mothership

no support role below cap? blackbirds are friggen deadly

and the progression you wrote is more pve, pvp most go from frigate to inty

Zlayer77 · July 2009

People here have answerd most of what EvE is compared to WoW but im going to list a few things that EvE has the WoW dose not.

EvE has player Run BANKS that work like Real banks, they give out loans and Intrests: www.eve-bank.net/
Corps in EvE can have shares, like any stock traded IRL company and you can give out divence to people that have invested into your corp.
EvE have news Boards ingame that talk about Player Corps and what is happening in the Universe. Not fluff news for a made up story, but real news as: Today Alliance X fougth alliance Y and X lost alot of capitals and space.
EvE have a Radio station
In EvE the players manafacture 90% of all used Items
When you lose in EvE you get blown up and loose all your stuff that you had onboard, and also your life if your life pod gets shoot down. THis is harsh and Brutal, and makes conflict so mush more exciting.
You can be a DRUG dealer
In EvE many players like to fight over the MAP, so over the years the political landscape have changed just like in IRL, where countries have rissen and fallen thru the centuries. Here is how it looked a few months ago go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/verite/20090204.png and here is how it looks today dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png as you can see it has changed fairly mush...
Corps In EvE can have many rolls we have those that are focused on Space conquest, Wormhole exploration, Manafacturing/arms dealing, Pirating, Mining and drug running. We even have a Corp that hase Based themself upon training NOOBs www.eve-ivy.com/. They are the player run EvE university training Pilots for the harsh world of space.
You can scan out space and find new places to go... You can work as a hacker, Hauler, Drugrunner, Pirate, Trader, Fleet FC, Miner, manafacturer, day trader or anything ells you can come up with and find a market for. If you can make something sell! be it a service or an item you can bring that into EvE its all up to you... Its the closest game on the market that resembles Real life

Now some like it others hate it, but in the End EvE is a game that is mostly played by an older player base. Avrage age of an EvE player is 27 years. Its Monopoly and Risk in space all packed into one.....

Herodes · July 2009

Originally posted by miagisan
Originally posted by Sentinel0 Eve is hardly a sandbox. It's just the most "sandboxy" mmo in the market to day.
Even though you are free to chose what skills to learn you are still inevitably forced into a well defined path. This is because you need to compete with players older than you meaning you're forced to specialized. There are several PVP paths but they generally go like this:

Frig > Cruiser > Battle Cruiser > Battleship (Amar) > Dreadnaught (Amar).
Gun(lazors) > drones(Galante) > mechanic > navigation.
After Battleship 5 most people will chose either Capital ship training or T2 ship training at which they specialize into the few T2 ships that's worth getting. IE HAC, Interceptor, Assault Frig, Recon and Heavy Interdictor.
There is no support role below Capital ship level. Not since they nerfed the Falcan.

Non PVP usally goes like:
Caldari Frig, Caldari Cruiser > Drake > Raven
Missile > Shields

There's various non-combat roles such as Minning, industry and trade. Overall that's just an expanded version of crafting, nothing more.

All in all, not exactly Sandbox but it's definitly a lot deeper than anything you'll find on the market. Of course you pay for that delpth just as much as you would pay for the breadth of content in the "theme park" games.

really? thats odd...my blackops player went from frig to stealth bomber to force recon to black ops
my miner went from miner, exhumer and then i swtiched to an orca, and now a freighter
my cap ship pilot went from frig to battlecruiser to battleship to drednaught, pondering either a carrier or mothership

So you have 3 accounts? In a sandbox game, where you should be free to do what you like?

Xennith · July 2009

I have three accounts as well. So what?

nurgles · July 2009

Originally posted by Herodes

So you have 3 accounts? In a sandbox game, where you should be free to do what you like?

i think you may be mistaking "free to do what you like" with "free to do everything you like immediately"

Herodes · July 2009

Isn´t it a bit like classes then?

I.e. like logging into his priest or druid in... WoW?^^

Sorry for trolling.

Gdemami · July 2009

Originally posted by Herodes
Isn´t it a bit like classes then?I.e. like logging into his priest or druid in... WoW?^^
Sorry for trolling.

No, it isn't.

Hush troll...

miagisan · July 2009

I have 3 accounts for the following reason:

My main account is paid for another 7 months, i have 14 months free of game time from the extended trials i have given out (cap ship account)

My miner has another 3 months free (5 months total free play time) from extended trials given out

My black ops has another 1 month free (i had 3 months free) from extended trials given out

so 3 accounts, $0 for the last 7 months....all because i troll a whole lotta forums.

And the above poster is right, just because it's sand box doesnt mean its free to do whatever you want right away. I want a carrier on my main toon, but that takes alot of training, so he is streamlined for it atm. BUT i also like a missileer, so hence my black ops player, and my miner is turning into a R&D toon

And no there is no classes, cause at ANY time i can switch these characters training. Once i get into my carrier, i will most likely sell of my other characters, since i have hit my goal and will be able to go back and do other training on my main, while making some nice profit from selling (legally, for isk through CCP) my other 2 toons, since i wont have a need for em any more at that point

PatchDay · July 2009

Originally posted by Kyleran

Since there is no agreed upon definition of what a sandbox game is, there tends to be quite a difference of opinion and I've see people argue that WOW is a sandbox game. (its not, IMO)
Many posters will quote you the "features" of a sandbox game (no classes or levels, freedom to pursue your own path, not quest driven etc) and they are correct. But how many features (or toys) does a game need to be considered a sandbox? That's the dilema one faces.
I like this model the best.

Less Sandbox Features More Sandbox Features
<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
WOW LotRO AOC CoX Lineage 2 Darkfall EVE UO
Placement of the above games is not scientific or even well thought out, just a represention for my example.
IMO opinion, the games on the right allow more player freedom and more tools which are used to create the gaming experience.
The games on the left have fewer tools, follow a more linear progression, and are more themepark in their approach.
Each game style has its merits, and both types can be fun.

You claim this chart wasn't well thought out but it seems really accurate from where I sit. gj

Kyleran · July 2009

Originally posted by Herodes

Isn´t it a bit like classes then?
I.e. like logging into his priest or druid in... WoW?^^

Sorry for trolling.

In a way you are correct, the ship you fly is the 'class you are'. Difference being the same character can be many classes, where as in WOW you have to reroll new characters.

Now its true, many EVE players have mulitple accounts, mostly so they can speed things up and do perform more quickly. But there's just as many patient players with 80M SP's right now who have one character who can do most of everything, fly Capitals, heavy miners, steath ships and are captains fo manufactuing and industry.

All just a matter of patience.

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What makes EVE a sandbox?

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What makes EVE a sandbox?

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV