Bioware, with it's Neverwinter Night series does have a community that has run successful persistent worlds for years. So while the multiplayer aspect might not interest you per se, the tools they provided to the community has allowed those game mechanism to be ported quite successfully into persistent worlds.
Good topic. Personally I am not interested in another WoW, even though the storyliune bit does sound interesting, so I'll be staying away from this game [unless at release it really surprises me] and from this forum. People need to learn to not to try and change games not fitting what their favourite MMO style is. That being said, I imagine that many Galaxies veterans are disappointed that this won't be a [much better done] repeat of the early days of that game.
i think thats where a lot of the disapointment stems from, everyone had high hopes that bioware was going to 'redress the wrongs' committed by soe, and bring out a game that would be everything that starwars galaxies was supposed to have been,
Anybody that expected this is an imbecile and deserves to go unsatisfied with their gaming needs. Bioware has NEVER made a sandbox game, in fact quite the opposite.
That's all just speculation right now. Personally I do not believe Bioware will deliver an experience you describe [that it, a MMORPG with a real RPG bit in it]. I am of course just guessing too, but I expect a WoW/EQ like game with some fancy bits added and a great license. It may not be impossible to make an MMO a true RPG game, but it's at very least extremely difficult. That being said, I'd welcome being completely wrong about this game.
From everything Bioware has said and all of the information that has been released thus far, I believe you are completely wrong about this game.
Good topic. Personally I am not interested in another WoW, even though the storyliune bit does sound interesting, so I'll be staying away from this game [unless at release it really surprises me] and from this forum. People need to learn to not to try and change games not fitting what their favourite MMO style is. That being said, I imagine that many Galaxies veterans are disappointed that this won't be a [much better done] repeat of the early days of that game.
i think thats where a lot of the disapointment stems from, everyone had high hopes that bioware was going to 'redress the wrongs' committed by soe, and bring out a game that would be everything that starwars galaxies was supposed to have been, but they didnt. its likely that they'll keep on playing wow, eve, and lotro etc, for them, theres nothing to see here, move along.. once again, we are not the target audience.... we get that a lot.
Plus the classic swg vets had high hopes that Bioware would make a sandbox game because they hired a lot of the original swg developers.
personally i find it strange to see posts from those guys talking about making a story feature when they were all about sandbox play. I guess if the paycheck is big enough...
Well like with any major development project, the actual decision making is in the hands of very few people. SWG developers were promoting what ever their project lead wanted to be promoted, your personal feelings got very little to do with it. Bigger and more expensive the project gets, less the general workforce is able to use their creative skills. Then there is the whole issue of egos. Many development projects tend to be detrimental to creativity. And it takes pretty exceptional leadership skills to allow creativity exists unhindered. Sure, it happens, but often the opposite is true.
I must say, that while I did not play SWG after the closed beta, I did follow the progress occasionally. There were plenty of threads at places like vnboards after first six month to a year, where people complained a lot that there was nothing to do in SWG, but to grind your careers or to grind credits with whatever crafting you chose to do. They were crying for any story driven content. Now, I did not follow it much after the first year, so not sure how it all played out.
I do remember an article, or a post, where Raph Koster claimed to know what gamers wanted. He had a very clear vision. I doubt many developers in-house could go to him and say that he was wrong - or that it was not them thinking that, but thousands of angry Star Wars fans who were not looking for this kind of a game. From somewhere around 2004-2005, I remember a poster asking that, "Would you play SWG, if it was not Star Wars?" Naturally I could not answer that question based solely on my beta experience, but that is pretty much how I felt when I decided not to buy the game after the beta.
You can feel all nostalgic about pre-CE SWG experience, but that there were LOTS of very negative criticism about the stage of SWG. But after 5-6 years, I am sure it is nicer to remember the smell of roses and not the public loo.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Well like with any major development project, the actual decision making is in the hands of very few people. SWG developers were promoting what ever their project lead wanted to be promoted, your personal feelings got very little to do with it. Bigger and more expensive the project gets, less the general workforce is able to use their creative skills. Then there is the whole issue of egos. Many development projects tend to be detrimental to creativity. And it takes pretty exceptional leadership skills to allow creativity exists unhindered. Sure, it happens, but often the opposite is true. I must say, that while I did not play SWG after the closed beta, I did follow the progress occasionally. There were plenty of threads at places like vnboards after first six month to a year, where people complained a lot that there was nothing to do in SWG, but grind your careers and grind credits with whatever crafting you did. They were crying for any story driven content. Now, I did not follow it much after the first year, so not sure how much actually changed. I do remember an article, or a post, where Raph Koster claimed to know what gamers wanted. He had a very clear vision. I doubt many developers in-house could go to him and say that he was wrong - or that it was not them thinking that, but thousands of angry Star Wars fans who were not looking for this kind of a game. From somewhere around 2004-2005, I remember a poster asking that, "Would you play SWG, if it was not Star Wars?" Naturally I could not answer that question based solely on my beta experience, but that is pretty much how I felt when I decided not to buy the game after the beta. You can feel all nostalgic about pre-CE SWG experience, but that there were LOTS of very negative criticism about the stage of SWG. But after 5-6 years, I am sure it is nicer to remember the smell of roses and not the public loo.
a lot of people that didnt play swg at launch + seem to think that people cancelled because of the design of the game. Thats just plain wrong.
Koster had a wonderful vision brought over from Ultima. A lot of players I know came to SWG just because Koster was there.
SWG sold about 1 million boxes before the NGE hit. It retained about 250k players at that time so 1/4 stayed. The 3/4 that quit were polled several times asking why they left. The response was overwhelmingly the same....BUGS.
The design was wonderful. It was the poor execution that drove most to cancel. And Im not talking about small issues like balance but real broken things. For example, when i was a pistoleer i recall the grind and getting to pick a special called Stopping Shot. It looked like a great skill to have so I picked it. Problem was it didnt do what it described it would, it didnt stop anything at all.
Yes some did complain that it didnt feel like star wars. others complained about lack of content. Those two issues can be traced to broken promises but not general design errors. SOE was supposed to add story arc content monthly and did so for the first 3 months, then they just stopped doing it. The battlefields and bases werent working properly and never got fixed, that there was a major part of why the "wars" in star wars wasnt there.
The design is still talked about after almost 4 years being gone. Thats a pretty amazing thing to comprehend. Go into any MMO development and you will see hundreds of posts asking / hoping that some of those wonderful pre-cu features will make it into that new game.
The brilliance of star wars galaxies is that there was gameplay for everyone. Those that didnt want to be "Uncle Owen" could take up BH for pvp thrills. Those that loved roleplay took up smuggler. Those that wanted a challenge took up seeking jedi. those that wanted to just hang out and chat took up musician or dancing. Those that wanted crafting had the ultimate game there.
Today MMO's dont give us options. They give us one style and we either like it or we dont. For some reason (financial i guess) virtual designs are giving away to these short-term theme parks.
its really sad that we dont have options anymore. and you will continue to see posts from us old pre-cu vets complaining that today's games lack features and design flaws because they fail to live up to a standard of brilliance that SWG left us.
SWG was poorly coded, never got supported and failed but its design remains a legend in the MMO genre.
Originally posted by admriker4 a lot of people that didnt play swg at launch + seem to think that people cancelled because of the design of the game. Thats just plain wrong. Koster had a wonderful vision brought over from Ultima. A lot of players I know came to SWG just because Koster was there. I am sure. Like I said, I only played in closed beta, never in release. My personal reasons for not playing in the release were pretty simple - only about 30% of the promised content was in and some bugs were simply game breaking for me. And it did not feel Star Warsy for me, albeit with 60-80% content and with less bugs, I would no doubt have played it.
Many in beta boards tried to tell developers that the game was too much like a virtual world and not enough action/adventure RPG that most Star Wars fans were expecting. The vision might have been good, but not for a Star Wars game. SWG sold about 1 million boxes before the NGE hit. It retained about 250k players at that time so 1/4 stayed. The 3/4 that quit were polled several times asking why they left. The response was overwhelmingly the same....BUGS. Well, it is true. Many complained about bugs, but lots of people also complained that the game simply was not fun. Too many timesinks and poor combat system. Also the point from previous paragraph, not Star Warsy enough. The design was wonderful. It was the poor execution that drove most to cancel. And Im not talking about small issues like balance but real broken things. For example, when i was a pistoleer i recall the grind and getting to pick a special called Stopping Shot. It looked like a great skill to have so I picked it. Problem was it didnt do what it described it would, it didnt stop anything at all. Yes some did complain that it didnt feel like star wars. others complained about lack of content. Those two issues can be traced to broken promises but not general design errors. SOE was supposed to add story arc content monthly and did so for the first 3 months, then they just stopped doing it. The battlefields and bases werent working properly and never got fixed, that there was a major part of why the "wars" in star wars wasnt there. Yep. I just disagree that it was only "some" that did not feel it was like Star Wars, but most fans would eat horse shit, if it had Star Wars flavour on it. I agree that the bugs etc. were indeed the reason what at the end drove many off the edge. The design is still talked about after almost 4 years being gone. Thats a pretty amazing thing to comprehend. Go into any MMO development and you will see hundreds of posts asking / hoping that some of those wonderful pre-cu features will make it into that new game. The design is talked by a few. In my opinion a group that represent a very vocal minority. Some of us have been trying to forget the fiasco since the closed beta :P The brilliance of star wars galaxies is that there was gameplay for everyone. Those that didnt want to be "Uncle Owen" could take up BH for pvp thrills. Those that loved roleplay took up smuggler. Those that wanted a challenge took up seeking jedi. those that wanted to just hang out and chat took up musician or dancing. Those that wanted crafting had the ultimate game there. Today MMO's dont give us options. They give us one style and we either like it or we dont. For some reason (financial i guess) virtual designs are giving away to these short-term theme parks. I understand that. However, going back to my original post. I play sandbox games like EVE and absolutely love it. That does not mean that I go to every MMO forum and threaten to boycott, if it is not a sandbox. There are many games designed specifically for this segment of the market and it is actually good that not all are. Like this SW:TOR. We need variety of MMOs in the market because majority of players do not find UO/SWG/EVE etc. type of games attractive. Most players prefer theme parks. its really sad that we dont have options anymore. and you will continue to see posts from us old pre-cu vets complaining that today's games lack features and design flaws because they fail to live up to a standard of brilliance that SWG left us. SWG was poorly coded, never got supported and failed but its design remains a legend in the MMO genre. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Thirdly, if you still prefer the fruitless sandbox debate, based on your SWG nostalgia, there are many sandbox MMOs in the making. These games seem to have almost the exact features that many of you are looking for. Try appreciate that not every game is going to be tailor made to your niche and acquired taste, but it seems that many are. Just to list few games coming out soon:
Originally posted by admriker4 a lot of people that didnt play swg at launch + seem to think that people cancelled because of the design of the game. Thats just plain wrong. Koster had a wonderful vision brought over from Ultima. A lot of players I know came to SWG just because Koster was there. I am sure. Like I said, I only played in closed beta, never in release. My personal reasons for not playing in the release were pretty simple - only about 30% of the promised content was in and some bugs were simply game breaking for me. And it did not feel Star Warsy for me, albeit with 60-80% content and with less bugs, I would no doubt have played it.
i tried to tell developers that the game was too much like a virtual world and not enough action/adventure RPG that i was expecting. The vision might have been good, but not for a Star Wars game. SWG sold about 1 million boxes before the NGE hit. It retained about 250k players at that time so 1/4 stayed. The 3/4 that quit were polled several times asking why they left. The response was overwhelmingly the same....BUGS. Well, it is true. Many complained about bugs, but i also complained that the game simply was not fun. Too many timesinks and poor combat system. Also the point from previous paragraph, not Star Warsy enough. The design was wonderful. It was the poor execution that drove most to cancel. And Im not talking about small issues like balance but real broken things. For example, when i was a pistoleer i recall the grind and getting to pick a special called Stopping Shot. It looked like a great skill to have so I picked it. Problem was it didnt do what it described it would, it didnt stop anything at all. Yes some did complain that it didnt feel like star wars. others complained about lack of content. Those two issues can be traced to broken promises but not general design errors. SOE was supposed to add story arc content monthly and did so for the first 3 months, then they just stopped doing it. The battlefields and bases werent working properly and never got fixed, that there was a major part of why the "wars" in star wars wasnt there. Yep. I just disagree that it was only "some" that did not feel it was like Star Wars, but i would eat horse shit, if it had Star Wars flavour on it. I agree that the bugs etc. were indeed the reason what at the end drove many off the edge. The design is still talked about after almost 4 years being gone. Thats a pretty amazing thing to comprehend. Go into any MMO development and you will see hundreds of posts asking / hoping that some of those wonderful pre-cu features will make it into that new game. The design is talked by a few. In my opinion a group that represent a very vocal minority. Some of us have been trying to forget the fiasco since the closed beta :P The brilliance of star wars galaxies is that there was gameplay for everyone. Those that didnt want to be "Uncle Owen" could take up BH for pvp thrills. Those that loved roleplay took up smuggler. Those that wanted a challenge took up seeking jedi. those that wanted to just hang out and chat took up musician or dancing. Those that wanted crafting had the ultimate game there. Today MMO's dont give us options. They give us one style and we either like it or we dont. For some reason (financial i guess) virtual designs are giving away to these short-term theme parks. I understand that. However, going back to my original post. I play sandbox games like EVE and absolutely love it. That does not mean that I go to every MMO forum and threaten to boycott, if it is not a sandbox. There are many games designed specifically for this segment of the market and it is actually good that not all are. Like this SW:TOR. We need variety of MMOs in the market because majority of players do not find UO/SWG/EVE etc. type of games attractive. i prefer theme parks. its really sad that we dont have options anymore. and you will continue to see posts from us old pre-cu vets complaining that today's games lack features and design flaws because they fail to live up to a standard of brilliance that SWG left us. SWG was poorly coded, never got supported and failed but its design remains a legend in the MMO genre. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
No offense, but do not edit other people's posts. I find that really poor taste. If you have an argument to make, make it.
But you do not have an argument, as you know that I did not base those points in a thin air. The current subscription numbers in MMOs alone speak in volumes.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Well, if we are only talking about the intended vision or design. Hasn't SWG already proven that the more linear the SW mmo the fewer people liked it. Pre-cu had the most subs, CU had fewer, and the NGE the least. Shouldn't it have been the opposite? The NGE is faster paced, more content, more iconic and starwarsy. There were hundreds of thousands of DL's for the trial of the NGE, and all you had to do was sub. No box fee. I bet 95% of those DL's never heard a word the vets said.
I don't think that means anything personally, but if you're gonna use sandbox as the reason for failure and not SOE/LA's short comings, then you can't use them for the CU and NGE. Gotta be fair now.
I think it has to do with time period. The classic films were all about the setting. I think that time period fit alot better with the sandbox. We already knew the story. Having us involved with it didnt make sense. Maybe if they did what turbine did and had a secondary story as you follow along the main story might have worked. But that may have been better than the real story...and would have been wierd. It was along time ago, and adding story may not have been allowed in that setting anyway or even possible with that tech.
I think the TOR setting goes with a more linear approach. It's more about story, because it isnt told already. The setting is secondary or even last. So sandbox may not work at all with it.
Just my opinion of coarse.
We're gonna find out though.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Originally posted by admriker4 SWG sold about 1 million boxes before the NGE hit. It retained about 250k players at that time so 1/4 stayed. The 3/4 that quit were polled several times asking why they left. The response was overwhelmingly the same....BUGS.
That's a pretty terrible retention rate. Below even Warhammer's. That can't just be solely from bugs, that kind of retention tells me people were unhappy with the core mechanics of the game in addition to other factors.
I'm thinking it has more to do with quality of the game and developer. The ones that offer a quality product that meet or exceed their customer's expectaions, have good retention rates. The mechanics may come into play on the developers part, However, needing 728 ram to even play the game wasn't on the box. It said 256, what the average PC had. Along with 56k modem, and AOL. Requiring an upgrade to your PC will crush your retention rates. And SWG certainly did require an upgrade of every single person I knew, both in game and out.
Now there were alot of things wrong with swg, buffs, armor encoumbrance,,ect...but those had little to do with core design. Koster has said what swg was supposed to be, and what we got was ALOT different. Blame whoever for that, but the core design was the same. Do we know that they spent 5 years and all their resources working on that design? It's hard to beleive.
Im not arguing in favor of TOR being a sandbox, Ive already said that would be kind of weird.
Just opinion, no way of knowing. I think TOR will be pretty successful though. They have a good team, and good resources.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi Just opinion, no way of knowing. I think TOR will be pretty successful though. They have a good team, and good resources.
We really need to get a pool started. Person who guesses closest to TORs sub numbers 3 months after launch gets bragging rights.
Just opinion, no way of knowing. I think TOR will be pretty successful though. They have a good team, and good resources.
We really need to get a pool started. Person who guesses closest to TORs sub numbers 3 months after launch gets bragging rights.
3 months? Depends on the end-game. Not enough info to even speculate. But I will. 643,241 subs for standard rate. Lower sub price plus MT in form of DL content, 732456. F2P w/ MT, I dont care, won't play nor will anyone I know. Thats expecting an MMO not aimed at the 12-18 crowd. Thats beyond my speculating ability.
Add one major design flaw, or performance issue,cut those numbers in half.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Just opinion, no way of knowing. I think TOR will be pretty successful though. They have a good team, and good resources.
We really need to get a pool started. Person who guesses closest to TORs sub numbers 3 months after launch gets bragging rights.
With Mythic helping out and memories of Jade Empire still haunting Biowares good record..... meh, toss a coin, i'm a fan of Bioware and i enjoyed Mass Effect, it just felt... exactly the same as KOTOR; as in go to planet complete mission, talk to everyone in your ship to forward relationships, go to planet complete mission, talk to ever.....
You get the idea, it wasn't as if that was the ONLY similarity too... Bioware's a one trick pony in RPG terms, anyone whose played their games can clearly see that. They tend not to try anything new and engaging, with some of Mythic along for the ride......
who knows how the game will turn out, will it be enjoyable... sure, but will you stick with it..... that's what we won't find out until much later.
"nothing actually matters, we're just slightly evolved monkeys clinging to a dying piece of rock hurtling through space waiting for our eventual death." - Frankie Boyle, Mock The Week
Well, there is a very good chance that SW:TOR is not subscription based. It has been hinted at already. Think more like Guild Wars, but you probably open new content simply by purhasing it online. What the content might be? Probably dungeons? Epic quest arcs that continue your character story, as they have already said...out of the box, there will be an end to the story that can be continued with later additions.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
No offense, but do not edit other people's posts. I find that really poor taste. If you have an argument to make, make it. But you do not have an argument, as you know that I did not base those points in a thin air. The current subscription numbers in MMOs alone speak in volumes.
sorry, you are right, i think in future i'll try not to post while drinking
I have been playing MMOs since EQ. I am currently plaing EQ2 and a bit of Vanguard. The MMO genre is boring and stale at the moment. I love Bioware games AND CANNOT WAIT FOR SWTOR. Finally a developer realises most people dont't want forced grouping, holding hands and griinding for hours for no purpose whatsoever apart from xp and phat loot I want story, I want to be part of an online world with lots of people. I want action. I CANNOT FRIGGIN WAIT. .
Problem is... this is a subscription game - how long can the story be ? And how can it evolve as a class based quest system for longterm gaming - and future expansions ? Sorry but I can't see it happening. Not with full voiceovers and everything. The game will be releasing little content (compared to leadin MMOs) to hold ppl intrested for long. And that means even less money is available for new content....
Good idea but .... doesn't add up longterm. = poor buisnessplan = unsure future = less players ready to comit long term.
How would you know? It's never been done before in an MMO, you have no clue about it's potential nor it's longevity. It will be updated regularly, just like every other MMO. What's really important is that they don't care if hardcores burn through content, they aren't the target audience and are more than free to leave after they burn out. The rest of us will be walking along and smelling the roses and by the time the majority of us even reach end game, there will be patches and expansions. Plus there is the whole replayability of this kind of game that is much more viable than a regular MMO. There will also be other typical MMO content as well.
It doesn't add up for you, because you're bad at math.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Originally posted by admriker4 a lot of people that didnt play swg at launch + seem to think that people cancelled because of the design of the game. Thats just plain wrong. Koster had a wonderful vision brought over from Ultima. A lot of players I know came to SWG just because Koster was there. I am sure. Like I said, I only played in closed beta, never in release. My personal reasons for not playing in the release were pretty simple - only about 30% of the promised content was in and some bugs were simply game breaking for me. And it did not feel Star Warsy for me, albeit with 60-80% content and with less bugs, I would no doubt have played it.
i tried to tell developers that the game was too much like a virtual world and not enough action/adventure RPG that i was expecting. The vision might have been good, but not for a Star Wars game. SWG sold about 1 million boxes before the NGE hit. It retained about 250k players at that time so 1/4 stayed. The 3/4 that quit were polled several times asking why they left. The response was overwhelmingly the same....BUGS. I have no proof to show you nor did I acknowledge that there were other reasons listed on that poll. I'm not pointing out that crappy game play came in second on that list, nor do I point out that the game didn't feel like Star Wars which was also on that list and was also one of the top reasons why people left. Well, it is true. Many complained about bugs, but i also complained that the game simply was not fun. Too many timesinks and poor combat system. Also the point from previous paragraph, not Star Warsy enough. The design was wonderful. It was the poor execution that drove most to cancel. And Im not talking about small issues like balance but real broken things. For example, when i was a pistoleer i recall the grind and getting to pick a special called Stopping Shot. It looked like a great skill to have so I picked it. Problem was it didnt do what it described it would, it didnt stop anything at all. Yes some did complain that it didnt feel like star wars. others complained about lack of content. Those two issues can be traced to broken promises but not general design errors. SOE was supposed to add story arc content monthly and did so for the first 3 months, then they just stopped doing it. The battlefields and bases werent working properly and never got fixed, that there was a major part of why the "wars" in star wars wasnt there. Yep. I just disagree that it was only "some" that did not feel it was like Star Wars, but i would eat horse shit, if it had Star Wars flavour on it. I agree that the bugs etc. were indeed the reason what at the end drove many off the edge. The design is still talked about after almost 4 years being gone. Thats a pretty amazing thing to comprehend. Go into any MMO development and you will see hundreds of posts asking / hoping that some of those wonderful pre-cu features will make it into that new game. The design is talked by a few. In my opinion a group that represent a very vocal minority. Some of us have been trying to forget the fiasco since the closed beta :P The brilliance of star wars galaxies is that there was gameplay for everyone. Those that didnt want to be "Uncle Owen" could take up BH for pvp thrills. Those that loved roleplay took up smuggler. Those that wanted a challenge took up seeking jedi. those that wanted to just hang out and chat took up musician or dancing. Those that wanted crafting had the ultimate game there. Today MMO's dont give us options. They give us one style and we either like it or we dont. For some reason (financial i guess) virtual designs are giving away to these short-term theme parks. I understand that. However, going back to my original post. I play sandbox games like EVE and absolutely love it. That does not mean that I go to every MMO forum and threaten to boycott, if it is not a sandbox. There are many games designed specifically for this segment of the market and it is actually good that not all are. Like this SW:TOR. We need variety of MMOs in the market because majority of players do not find UO/SWG/EVE etc. type of games attractive. i prefer theme parks. its really sad that we dont have options anymore. and you will continue to see posts from us old pre-cu vets complaining that today's games lack features and design flaws because they fail to live up to a standard of brilliance that SWG left us. SWG was poorly coded, never got supported and failed but its design remains a legend in the MMO genre. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
fixed.
fixed.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I think it's clear that sandbox is a thing of the past, there aren't going to be many games with the sandbox environment except for EVE. I play City of Heroes and it isn't a sandbox game and I still enjoy it, after a while I thought why bother wanting another sandbox game when that's almost not going to happen.
This is Bioware, I think they'll do just fine, it isn't going to be another WoW, but it's going to be another KOTOR/Mass Effect with multiplayer.
I think it's clear that sandbox is a thing of the past, there aren't going to be many games with the sandbox environment except for EVE. I play City of Heroes and it isn't a sandbox game and I still enjoy it, after a while I thought why bother wanting another sandbox game when that's almost not going to happen.
This is Bioware, I think they'll do just fine, it isn't going to be another WoW, but it's going to be another KOTOR/Mass Effect with multiplayer.
Someone desiring a sandbox didn't make this thread. Who are you talking to?
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Thirdly, if you still prefer the fruitless sandbox debate, based on your SWG nostalgia, there are many sandbox MMOs in the making. These games seem to have almost the exact features that many of you are looking for. Try appreciate that not every game is going to be tailor made to your niche and acquired taste, but it seems that many are. Just to list few games coming out soon:
Firstly, let me say that I love playing EVE. I have nothing against sandbox games, if they have been done well. However, this does not mean that I expect Bioware to deviate from their strenghts as a RPG game studio to please a vocal minority. Quite the opposite, if you only like sandbox games, you are not going to like a Bioware game. If that is the case, you just waste your time here. Secondly, If you have not played a Bioware game, I suggest you try Mass Effect or wait for Dragon Age: Origins. Best, if you try both. Once you have played those games, you will have a clearer idea what a Bioware game is likely to feel like, even if it does not play exactly alike. Thirdly, if you still prefer the fruitless sandbox debate, based on your SWG nostalgia, there are many sandbox MMOs in the making. These games seem to have almost the exact features that many of you are looking for. Try appreciate that not every game is going to be tailor made to your niche and acquired taste, but it seems that many are. Just to list few games coming out soon: http://www.play-earthrise.com/ http://www.fallenearth.com/ http://www.mortalonline.com/
Uumm, since when was EVE sandbox at all?
Do you know what "sandox" is?
BioWare games are about choices, but they leave out a lot. It's like a sportscar without an engine and gears.
Imagine a BioWare game, where you can build your own a castle, build your own space station and even build the interior for it, where you are not limited by your class and you can use, equip anything. You sit in it and imitate you race on a highway and make the noise with your mouth BRRRRR, WRRRRRR.
The freedom of choice is the where you need to start. Once you learned enough about sandbox, then come back and post again.
SWG had a sandbox structure without enough content, as it looks SWTOR has the content, but missing key features that help to immerse yourself in the STAR WARS universe - in-depth crafting system, huge open world without limitations(ie. you must go to zone3 from level20 to 30)skilled based character development, no forced factions, classes, etc everything you'd imagine and would love to do in the STAR WARS universe. They may even announce these, but I highly doubt that. BioWare wants to beat WoW and in that they will fail.
Comments
Bioware, with it's Neverwinter Night series does have a community that has run successful persistent worlds for years. So while the multiplayer aspect might not interest you per se, the tools they provided to the community has allowed those game mechanism to be ported quite successfully into persistent worlds.
http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewforum.html?forum=118
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Anybody that expected this is an imbecile and deserves to go unsatisfied with their gaming needs. Bioware has NEVER made a sandbox game, in fact quite the opposite.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
From everything Bioware has said and all of the information that has been released thus far, I believe you are completely wrong about this game.
i think thats where a lot of the disapointment stems from, everyone had high hopes that bioware was going to 'redress the wrongs' committed by soe, and bring out a game that would be everything that starwars galaxies was supposed to have been, but they didnt. its likely that they'll keep on playing wow, eve, and lotro etc, for them, theres nothing to see here, move along.. once again, we are not the target audience.... we get that a lot.
Plus the classic swg vets had high hopes that Bioware would make a sandbox game because they hired a lot of the original swg developers.
personally i find it strange to see posts from those guys talking about making a story feature when they were all about sandbox play. I guess if the paycheck is big enough...
Well like with any major development project, the actual decision making is in the hands of very few people. SWG developers were promoting what ever their project lead wanted to be promoted, your personal feelings got very little to do with it. Bigger and more expensive the project gets, less the general workforce is able to use their creative skills. Then there is the whole issue of egos. Many development projects tend to be detrimental to creativity. And it takes pretty exceptional leadership skills to allow creativity exists unhindered. Sure, it happens, but often the opposite is true.
I must say, that while I did not play SWG after the closed beta, I did follow the progress occasionally. There were plenty of threads at places like vnboards after first six month to a year, where people complained a lot that there was nothing to do in SWG, but to grind your careers or to grind credits with whatever crafting you chose to do. They were crying for any story driven content. Now, I did not follow it much after the first year, so not sure how it all played out.
I do remember an article, or a post, where Raph Koster claimed to know what gamers wanted. He had a very clear vision. I doubt many developers in-house could go to him and say that he was wrong - or that it was not them thinking that, but thousands of angry Star Wars fans who were not looking for this kind of a game. From somewhere around 2004-2005, I remember a poster asking that, "Would you play SWG, if it was not Star Wars?" Naturally I could not answer that question based solely on my beta experience, but that is pretty much how I felt when I decided not to buy the game after the beta.
You can feel all nostalgic about pre-CE SWG experience, but that there were LOTS of very negative criticism about the stage of SWG. But after 5-6 years, I am sure it is nicer to remember the smell of roses and not the public loo.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
a lot of people that didnt play swg at launch + seem to think that people cancelled because of the design of the game. Thats just plain wrong.
Koster had a wonderful vision brought over from Ultima. A lot of players I know came to SWG just because Koster was there.
SWG sold about 1 million boxes before the NGE hit. It retained about 250k players at that time so 1/4 stayed. The 3/4 that quit were polled several times asking why they left. The response was overwhelmingly the same....BUGS.
The design was wonderful. It was the poor execution that drove most to cancel. And Im not talking about small issues like balance but real broken things. For example, when i was a pistoleer i recall the grind and getting to pick a special called Stopping Shot. It looked like a great skill to have so I picked it. Problem was it didnt do what it described it would, it didnt stop anything at all.
Yes some did complain that it didnt feel like star wars. others complained about lack of content. Those two issues can be traced to broken promises but not general design errors. SOE was supposed to add story arc content monthly and did so for the first 3 months, then they just stopped doing it. The battlefields and bases werent working properly and never got fixed, that there was a major part of why the "wars" in star wars wasnt there.
The design is still talked about after almost 4 years being gone. Thats a pretty amazing thing to comprehend. Go into any MMO development and you will see hundreds of posts asking / hoping that some of those wonderful pre-cu features will make it into that new game.
The brilliance of star wars galaxies is that there was gameplay for everyone. Those that didnt want to be "Uncle Owen" could take up BH for pvp thrills. Those that loved roleplay took up smuggler. Those that wanted a challenge took up seeking jedi. those that wanted to just hang out and chat took up musician or dancing. Those that wanted crafting had the ultimate game there.
Today MMO's dont give us options. They give us one style and we either like it or we dont. For some reason (financial i guess) virtual designs are giving away to these short-term theme parks.
its really sad that we dont have options anymore. and you will continue to see posts from us old pre-cu vets complaining that today's games lack features and design flaws because they fail to live up to a standard of brilliance that SWG left us.
SWG was poorly coded, never got supported and failed but its design remains a legend in the MMO genre.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Nope none of these games have most important features of pre-cu SWG
Too bad. The OP was trying to state that there likely will never be 'an other' pre-cu SWG, and that SWTOR will certainly NOT BE THAT GAME.
fixed.
No offense, but do not edit other people's posts. I find that really poor taste. If you have an argument to make, make it.
But you do not have an argument, as you know that I did not base those points in a thin air. The current subscription numbers in MMOs alone speak in volumes.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Well, if we are only talking about the intended vision or design. Hasn't SWG already proven that the more linear the SW mmo the fewer people liked it. Pre-cu had the most subs, CU had fewer, and the NGE the least. Shouldn't it have been the opposite? The NGE is faster paced, more content, more iconic and starwarsy. There were hundreds of thousands of DL's for the trial of the NGE, and all you had to do was sub. No box fee. I bet 95% of those DL's never heard a word the vets said.
I don't think that means anything personally, but if you're gonna use sandbox as the reason for failure and not SOE/LA's short comings, then you can't use them for the CU and NGE. Gotta be fair now.
I think it has to do with time period. The classic films were all about the setting. I think that time period fit alot better with the sandbox. We already knew the story. Having us involved with it didnt make sense. Maybe if they did what turbine did and had a secondary story as you follow along the main story might have worked. But that may have been better than the real story...and would have been wierd. It was along time ago, and adding story may not have been allowed in that setting anyway or even possible with that tech.
I think the TOR setting goes with a more linear approach. It's more about story, because it isnt told already. The setting is secondary or even last. So sandbox may not work at all with it.
Just my opinion of coarse.
We're gonna find out though.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
That's a pretty terrible retention rate. Below even Warhammer's. That can't just be solely from bugs, that kind of retention tells me people were unhappy with the core mechanics of the game in addition to other factors.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
I'm thinking it has more to do with quality of the game and developer. The ones that offer a quality product that meet or exceed their customer's expectaions, have good retention rates. The mechanics may come into play on the developers part, However, needing 728 ram to even play the game wasn't on the box. It said 256, what the average PC had. Along with 56k modem, and AOL. Requiring an upgrade to your PC will crush your retention rates. And SWG certainly did require an upgrade of every single person I knew, both in game and out.
Now there were alot of things wrong with swg, buffs, armor encoumbrance,,ect...but those had little to do with core design. Koster has said what swg was supposed to be, and what we got was ALOT different. Blame whoever for that, but the core design was the same. Do we know that they spent 5 years and all their resources working on that design? It's hard to beleive.
Im not arguing in favor of TOR being a sandbox, Ive already said that would be kind of weird.
Just opinion, no way of knowing. I think TOR will be pretty successful though. They have a good team, and good resources.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
We really need to get a pool started. Person who guesses closest to TORs sub numbers 3 months after launch gets bragging rights.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
We really need to get a pool started. Person who guesses closest to TORs sub numbers 3 months after launch gets bragging rights.
3 months? Depends on the end-game. Not enough info to even speculate. But I will. 643,241 subs for standard rate. Lower sub price plus MT in form of DL content, 732456. F2P w/ MT, I dont care, won't play nor will anyone I know. Thats expecting an MMO not aimed at the 12-18 crowd. Thats beyond my speculating ability.
Add one major design flaw, or performance issue,cut those numbers in half.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
We really need to get a pool started. Person who guesses closest to TORs sub numbers 3 months after launch gets bragging rights.
With Mythic helping out and memories of Jade Empire still haunting Biowares good record..... meh, toss a coin, i'm a fan of Bioware and i enjoyed Mass Effect, it just felt... exactly the same as KOTOR; as in go to planet complete mission, talk to everyone in your ship to forward relationships, go to planet complete mission, talk to ever.....
You get the idea, it wasn't as if that was the ONLY similarity too... Bioware's a one trick pony in RPG terms, anyone whose played their games can clearly see that. They tend not to try anything new and engaging, with some of Mythic along for the ride......
who knows how the game will turn out, will it be enjoyable... sure, but will you stick with it..... that's what we won't find out until much later.
"nothing actually matters, we're just slightly evolved monkeys clinging to a dying piece of rock hurtling through space waiting for our eventual death." - Frankie Boyle, Mock The Week
Well, there is a very good chance that SW:TOR is not subscription based. It has been hinted at already. Think more like Guild Wars, but you probably open new content simply by purhasing it online. What the content might be? Probably dungeons? Epic quest arcs that continue your character story, as they have already said...out of the box, there will be an end to the story that can be continued with later additions.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Excellent post by the OP, and to be honest Bioware like Blizzard make FANTASTIC games I am sure SWTOR will not disappoint
sorry, you are right, i think in future i'll try not to post while drinking
Problem is... this is a subscription game - how long can the story be ? And how can it evolve as a class based quest system for longterm gaming - and future expansions ? Sorry but I can't see it happening. Not with full voiceovers and everything. The game will be releasing little content (compared to leadin MMOs) to hold ppl intrested for long. And that means even less money is available for new content....
Good idea but .... doesn't add up longterm. = poor buisnessplan = unsure future = less players ready to comit long term.
How would you know? It's never been done before in an MMO, you have no clue about it's potential nor it's longevity. It will be updated regularly, just like every other MMO. What's really important is that they don't care if hardcores burn through content, they aren't the target audience and are more than free to leave after they burn out. The rest of us will be walking along and smelling the roses and by the time the majority of us even reach end game, there will be patches and expansions. Plus there is the whole replayability of this kind of game that is much more viable than a regular MMO. There will also be other typical MMO content as well.
It doesn't add up for you, because you're bad at math.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
fixed.
fixed.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
You guys are funny...
I think it's clear that sandbox is a thing of the past, there aren't going to be many games with the sandbox environment except for EVE. I play City of Heroes and it isn't a sandbox game and I still enjoy it, after a while I thought why bother wanting another sandbox game when that's almost not going to happen.
This is Bioware, I think they'll do just fine, it isn't going to be another WoW, but it's going to be another KOTOR/Mass Effect with multiplayer.
Someone desiring a sandbox didn't make this thread. Who are you talking to?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Nope none of these games have most important features of pre-cu SWG
Those days are not coming back. Accept it.
Uumm, since when was EVE sandbox at all?
Do you know what "sandox" is?
BioWare games are about choices, but they leave out a lot. It's like a sportscar without an engine and gears.
Imagine a BioWare game, where you can build your own a castle, build your own space station and even build the interior for it, where you are not limited by your class and you can use, equip anything. You sit in it and imitate you race on a highway and make the noise with your mouth BRRRRR, WRRRRRR.
The freedom of choice is the where you need to start. Once you learned enough about sandbox, then come back and post again.
SWG had a sandbox structure without enough content, as it looks SWTOR has the content, but missing key features that help to immerse yourself in the STAR WARS universe - in-depth crafting system, huge open world without limitations(ie. you must go to zone3 from level20 to 30)skilled based character development, no forced factions, classes, etc everything you'd imagine and would love to do in the STAR WARS universe. They may even announce these, but I highly doubt that. BioWare wants to beat WoW and in that they will fail.
Sera
Darjani SWGE Galaxy