Basically, what I'm saying isn't the current endgame isn't very user friendly.
In order to contribute, people have to do research - either by reading or talking to other more experienced players. You can't just jump right in and expect to be able to contribute.
But there's no real pointers in the game saying "this is what you must do" or "Now you must learn to play, here's where to start". Which can be off-putting to people, since up until endgame, Warcraft is so incredibly friendly and forgiving.
There just a huge discontinuity between the easy levelling process, and the endgame, which is as hardcore as any other MMO out there. There really should be something in the game to help bridge that gap.
I can understand why players choose to only recruit/party with other players that have a certain achievement. There is nothing worse than failing at a PUG just because someone doesn't knows what he is doing. But still, I agree that using the achievements in this way in part.. ruins the social aspect of the game.
Myself for example, I had top Naxx 25 gear and I couldn't do the VOA10/25 Emalon boss when Patch 3.2 came out due to work, when I logged in 2 days after I was already being asked for the achievement or no invite.. This is what may be considered "extreme".. People are not even giving time for others to accomplish anything.. took me 4 weeks for someone to let me join a group -_- for something so freaking easy..
My suggestion? PvP. Nothing is more fun then grouping up with other players with one common goal to kill other players and crush there goal. I can't see doing the same dungeon with the same bosses that do the samething everytime you fight them. You can say what you want about PvP, that its the same Battleground and you go through the same motions. But being your opponent is actually a real live person on the opposite keyboad. The experiance does change game to game, arena to arena.
Even though some AV games have been jeopardized from players wanting the Blitz achievement.
How is this any different than the old waiting lines to get into "PuG" raids in say EQ? End game Raiding has always been a bit "elitist" in the sense that people want to go with a good solid group because no one wants to invest 6hrs+ with a pack of idiots and fail.
Now what he didn't mention is how required the addons are. When you start requiring raiders to have 3rd party "assists" loaded, I call BS.
Ok, here is what I have been seeing the recent years in MMOs. Everyone wants everything now and not later. It's the same mentality as those poor kids that are being raised in sports activities where everyone gets a trophy and everyones a winner! Well guess what not everyone is a winner and that is a horrible way to expect the world to oblige you. Have I in the past been a part of teams that were the top and kicked ass? Yes, but dear god the effort was required at every step of the way to get there. However, everytime we succeeded it all started from us being at the bottom and working our way up and earning our way. I appreciate someone taking time and putting in their time in the dirt to get some ground on that upward road. Good, you are proving your desire and earned what you get. Now that doesn't mean there aren'y those handed things because of who they know, but that is a minority. I hold no ill will towards anyone that asks a certian level of requirement on what the existing team is expecting from those already on board. Someone in Single A ball won't get asked to the Majors just because they are part of the same organization. Effort is required, time is required, and more often than not these two will not come easily. Current / new MMO players are almost wanting everyont handed to them, I pay the monthly I should get it. Wrong. Just because you are of legal age doesn't mean you are handed a drivers license. Just because you have a license doesn't mean you get good insurance rates. Everything takes time and that gives experience. Next thing you know, you are part of that group you wanted to be in and are working towards goals. END OF LINE_ ~V
You want to get into raiding and people won't invite you because you haven't raided.. well, there are a few things you can do to make sure a good raid leader can tell if you are a good player or not just from looking at you. 1. Gear selection - putting epics in every slot isn't everything, you have to make smart choices in stats. I've had two priests healing my raids with entirely different setups but both Holy spec. One was big on +spellpower and having a large mana pool, one was big on haste and regen. One would spam heal smaller heals efficiently other would drop the big bombs. Same class, pretty much the same spec, gear choices/selection made them totally different playstyles and players.
2. Effort = reward - Get a full set of epics from Heroics and crafting (even a PvP weapon is fine), get them gemmed intelligently, get them enchanted intelligently, and you'll get invited. Having a random hodge-podge of unenchanted and ungemed epic pieces from Heroics doesn't mean anything. If you want to get into raiding and don't have a guild to carry you, you need to put in the leg work to get EVERYTHING you possibly could/can out of non-raiding content first.
3. Research. Research. Research. - tell me you know what to do on each fight.
4. Heroic achievements - So you don't have any raid achievements, that's ok, have you done the hard-mode Heroic stuff? I'll take a player any day to a raid with all their Heroic dungeon achievements. 5. Impress me early - don't ask a ton of questions and have to have everything explained. silently sit there and do your job well and eventually I'll give you props and you'll be invited back next time.
Elitists like this guy is probably a big reason why the OP wrote the article. Arrogant players who think that their experience in a pixelated environment makes them a better person than someone else. Specificly pointing out the comment about his #5 comment, that's as arrogant as they come...Impress me early he says, laughable at best. If anything, other players should be offering to guide others through the raids that haven't and that need to learn the raids, not be self-centered jerks about it.
Blizzard probably didn't know how the system would be handled down the road like one of the other posters said, BUT now that that system has been in place for a couple years now they have had plenty of time to recognize and correct the oversight which they haven't. It's not just WoW that is infected with the attitude but Lotro is becoming the same way, partly because some of the WoW raiders got bored failing or getting denied by raids in WoW so they went to Lotro to pull the same elitist mentality. I have played Lotro since alpha, it was never as bad as it is now ever since MoM came out. I have great raid gear and max lvl toons in both mmo's but I did it by grouping with friends who helped me learn the raids and in turn I help others when I can.
I keep note of jerks like the above poster I quoted and if those guys go LFG they get denied and if they happen to ask me to their group, I decline. I play by my own terms, not theirs.
It's a game.
It's a game with rules.
Want to play the game, play by the rules.
Get over yourself.
No one deserves anything unless they work towards it. It's true in life and it's true in end-game in a MMORPG like WoW. If you don't wanna put in the effort to play the game, don't expect the rewards and don't expect those who DO put in the effort to give you the time of day.
This post is one of the main reasons I left WoW recently. For a casual gamer like myself its gets old seeing high-end loot and tough-guy raid leaders posting non stop in trade channel. I mean come on....its pixels..its not real life....LOL. WoW has really turned into a loot fest, which is said because Lich King was an awesome expansion.
When I play WoW I only pvp so I can avoid the dungeons/raids and the crowd it draws. Because of this I've been able to play wow with a more laid back and casual approach. I've no interest in raids or hardmode dungeons myself so WoW for me is pretty relaxing and stress-free. :-)
I think there is a lot that is being overlooked in this thread.
First, believe it or not there are many people who enjoy achievements for exactly what they are and they never factor into some raiding job resume.
Beyond that, there is nothing stopping anyone from forming their own pugs, raids, guilds, co-ops and not demanding prospects to link their achievements. I join enough pugs and don't have this problem. I don't deny that it doesn't happen, but there is enough going in the game that is always an alternative. If someone asks for my achievements, then I thank them and politely decline.
There are plenty of people of all walks of life in wow and it is pretty easy to find enough like minded people to get most anything done. If you can't get invited to a pug, then get off your duff and start your own.
You want to get into raiding and people won't invite you because you haven't raided.. well, there are a few things you can do to make sure a good raid leader can tell if you are a good player or not just from looking at you. 1. Gear selection - putting epics in every slot isn't everything, you have to make smart choices in stats. I've had two priests healing my raids with entirely different setups but both Holy spec. One was big on +spellpower and having a large mana pool, one was big on haste and regen. One would spam heal smaller heals efficiently other would drop the big bombs. Same class, pretty much the same spec, gear choices/selection made them totally different playstyles and players.
2. Effort = reward - Get a full set of epics from Heroics and crafting (even a PvP weapon is fine), get them gemmed intelligently, get them enchanted intelligently, and you'll get invited. Having a random hodge-podge of unenchanted and ungemed epic pieces from Heroics doesn't mean anything. If you want to get into raiding and don't have a guild to carry you, you need to put in the leg work to get EVERYTHING you possibly could/can out of non-raiding content first.
3. Research. Research. Research. - tell me you know what to do on each fight.
4. Heroic achievements - So you don't have any raid achievements, that's ok, have you done the hard-mode Heroic stuff? I'll take a player any day to a raid with all their Heroic dungeon achievements. 5. Impress me early - don't ask a ton of questions and have to have everything explained. silently sit there and do your job well and eventually I'll give you props and you'll be invited back next time.
This post is a great example of why I decided to quit WoW (nothing personal against you, johnspartan).
Here's the thing: I'm a very competent gamer w/ tons of experience and I don't just learn the class I play - I know it inside and out. And yet somehow there's always some stat-mongering group/guild/raid leader pissing and moaning that I "need" X in order to do Y.
Hey folks... remember the "G" in "MMORPG" stands for "Game".
Having purples and reading a strategy guide doesn't make you a good player. When will people realize this?
Your typical WoW head isnt he? LOL I sometimes wish they would stick these type of gamers on a server of their own away from the folks with a life.
I'm not going to appologize for myself or for anyone else. These are games, if you want to play you have to play by the rules. More importantly, in these game worlds there are certain norms and values and expectations that are created within the game's culture. This culture includes achievement linking and such as the OP mentions. You have two options. A) complain about it like a loser
figure out what you need to do to "fit in" It's basic human social dynamics. And yes, they apply to online game worlds. They involve human interaction don't they? Moral of the story: Deal with it, or don't bitch.
Little children whine and complain and go on and on about what they can't have and can't do. Adults view these things as challenges to overcome.
Which are you?
Not sure where your from or how old you are, but you are now officially my hero....
I still don't understand why the author doesn't fix his own problem by either: a. Starting his own PuG. b. Finding and joining a guild that matches his playstyle/availability/raiding desires. or c. Starting a guild that matches his playstyle/availability/raiding desires. He can even call it "No Achvmnts No Prblm."
because that would make sense and be logical and NOTHING on this forum or this entire site ever makes sense nor is anything ever logical and actually thought out.
People just like to b!tch because they can't hang with the big boys.
Boohoo. Life isn't fair, online video games aren't either. Anything involving human interaction will never be fair and balanced, some people are just better or worse or different or have more/less time etc. etc.
This entire debate is f*cking pointless, as was the OP's cry-fest little rant.
Ulduar 25-man is, right now, the pinnacle of raiding in WoW. It's the highest level raid dungeon available in the game, and as such is (in the current game at level 80) the most challenging raid dungeon in the game.
And you want to PUG it?
Until 3.2 comes out and the Argent Colliseum thing, Ulduar is the cutting-edge of raiding. It's the end-game. You really think it's fair the the end-game cutting edge raid dungeon be PUGable?
Are you kidding me?
Some of us LIKE a bit of challenge and think it's FUN to tackle difficult content and succeed. You want to go and PUG Naxx/OS/Maly go ahead.
I suppose you want the Argent Colliseum to be PUGable too right? I mean, God forbid they release new content that actually is challenging and requires a coordinated, well rehersed TEAM of players to defeat instead of some random hodge-podge assortment of players better known as a PUG.
Narrow minded a bit, aren't we? Your view of MMOs is one of the most closed-minded I've ever read. "MMOs are about pugs" - really!? "Leveling is an annoyance" - to you, maybe, but not to people who actually enjoy a broader sense of MMOs.
If pugs are your favorite way to play, fine, more power to you. If you hate to level - I've leveled many toons, I get it, but that's you, not every person in the game. I still like to level characters. If you don't role play at all, great, WoW especially is the place to be, knock yourself out, but some of us actually have character concepts and do role-play at least a little bit. If you don't like guilds, or hard-core raiding teams, fine, but many people do. If you don't like casual guilds, fine, but many people do.
I can go on and on about what MMORPG games ARE, that you deny because you don't play that way. They are about many styles of play, bottom line, in a vast world (hopefully). There is room for all kinds of players. Quit speaking as if they are all like you; they aren't. Your blinders are so big you practically have tunnel vision.
I never got to your point about achievements; frankly, I stopped reading where it became apparent that your prejudice is so huge I could care less what else you have to say. If you want me to pay attention to you, then stop speaking as though you talk for everyone when who you are really talking for is YOURSELF. I'm sick of that attitude.
Clue: we aren't all the same. Get it, or shut up about MMOs.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
A bit too emotional guys, WoW is really a fairly casual game, even as far as raiding goes. No need to get so upset.
Back to the OP's concern.
WoW as a game offers a wide range of possible gameplay from the most casual and fun oriented to some semi serious raiders. I talk using my own experience.
I have 2 bunch of alts, one bunch from an american server Medivh, mainly for fun, as my home and friends start there. We all once live in the east coast. Now we are all split up. WoW for us is pure fun. We play all sorts of crazy things from 5 melee instance runs (wipes) to fishing contest. Now these players do not care much about achievement and see this game feature as extra fun. Tell you what we all go nake and jump from every building, flying boat and so on to get that achievement where u did not die after jumping and ends up with 1hp.
My other server is oceanic, and we do raids. Yes I also pug when I missed the raid start for the week due to work. Raid guilds put in a lot of effort to make the raid work, mimimize failures. The cost of a raid is immense, especially during progression, 20-30 wipes per run for a boss. One mistake from one member, one DC or one lag and its all over. Imagine getting boss to 1% and someone forgot to kill the tree that heals freya. Oh, rerun from 100% again.
Now raid guild picks members seriously. 24 sad faces if one does a foolish move. Regular ulduar raid guild will bring you to 25naxx and run you through and read the recounts and wws, they will also do heroics with you to gain a feel. Achievements are less of a concern, they got time to really work it out with you before recruiting into guild.
I also pug. Yes you can PUG ulduar, we did that regularly, even hard mode. I got 4 tower up FL hard mode from a PUG, after wiping for 2 nights. Some PUGs are as serious as regular raids b/c they still want it done. If they do not know you first hand, they have to decide wether to accept you, in 1 minute or less. On what basis can they use to decide? Gear, achievement. Its like a temporary staff recruitment for a day. Tell me what high school you attend.
Is that discrimination, yvmv. A choice of candidate has to be made, don't blame the tool used. Achievement is just the tool, gear check is just the tool.
Can the OP form his 25man? It depends. If he does not know the boss fight, he need to find raid leaders who knows. Good raid leaders usually start his own raids, a random nobody forming a 25man ulduar will not attract the veteran 25man raiders. No one wants to kill FL after 10 wipes, got saved and fell apart b/c the raid can go no further. No good raiders want to do that till maybe monday when server is about to reset in 20 hours.
For raiding players, yes, the OP does point out some issues. People are being assessed and selected. Some usual tools are gear check and acheivement. Those without will have to run heroics to gain friends or pug 10s and late monday 25s trying to get achievements. Its like an entry ticket. With naxx gear + H gear, you pass the gear check. PUG 10man to holdir and thorim, and maybe 25man FL and you can try to join the regular 25man teams when they have ppl offline or DCed.
OP's bitterness we all know, we have been there. But he seems to have vent excessively against the tool. Achievevment is not designed with a bad motive. Many achievements are really fun. It just happened that some boss kill achievements are also convenient tools for raid leaders to assess quality of PUG members.
At the end of the day, you need to enjoy the game to justify all the expenses. From ass long hours to monthly sub. The OP seems to have missed this in his discussions
I get my epics from pvp and the argent tournament for now. I flat out refuse to raid. I don't have that kind of time and in all honesty the attitude of the raiding community leaves a lot to be desired. Now to make things worse Blizzard is adding that crap to the torunament.
The WoW achievement system is pretty gay in general. I'm an old school EQ player that has never been impressed or interested in the raid system WoW has in place. I have been on about 5 raids total and doubt I ever go again. The whole send me your age, weight and condom size is just a complete turn off on top of everything else.
The real issue with WoW is simply this, it's so easy to solo your way to lvl 80 that 95% of the players in the game have no clue how to play their character in a group once they reach lvl 80. It's like a bunch of people with ADD who ran out of ritalin behind those keyboards.
I've noticed this problem popping up lately. I had a druid geared in heroic gear and was told couldn't come to Naxx because he "wasn't geared". Should of been "wasn't acheived" maybe? This is silly of course as I have the knowledge from running Naxx with my pally, DK and mage.
All 25 raiders don't need the hard achievements to qualify for running a raid. Lately though it seems people are getting lazy and want the "easy" way to get the raid done. By having people that already did the raid so many times they have all the gear and the achievements. Course, if they have all the gear and achievements, why would they be raiding that place again in the first place?
In a 25 man you have a bit more "wiggle" room for error. I'd never do Sarth 3D 10 man with 1 or 2 people that didn't know what to do. I'd have no problem starting a 25 man one with a few people that didn't though, just explain it and let them learn. Remember all you people that are "Undying" and "Immortal", you were raider newbies at one point too.
Hmmm.... so johnspartan you're saying its a game...
Why yes it is... isn't it. A lot of these people are not asking for an apology really, especially not from you I think.
The game is what it is because of hard core end gamers. It is not made up of rules per se, the rules are made up by elitist factions such as yourself that sets the bar for everyone who are casual or who actually have LIVES. Not to say that such separation is wrong. People can choose who they want to play with, and if they are good enough. On an earlier post, you seem to be a good judge of character just by looking at them, so I will not delve into that further. In any MMORPG it is killed or be killed, the survival of the fittest, but honestly now, did you not start somewhere? And like you even said on an earlier post again, guilds carry certain people, you judge people so easily on certain things....
I played WoW since its inception, till prior to Ulduar. I have every achievement since then, have arena mounts, ala'r's phoenix, etc completed all the instances, pre BC onwards to LK dungeons 10/25 non/heroic, in a well known Korgath(US) guild from inception to its dissolution, and I have grown tired as such, and honestly, it is because of elitist people like you, my good sir, johneffinspartan who makes the game experience quite bad. It is people like you who ruin it for most others, and I know you could care any less but hey, I could care less either what you think about my response to you.
Also, I'm pretty sure you yourself, got carried through most of the instances gaining your achievements, and now just acting big on it. I feel sad for you.
As for the other WoW gamers, don't mind what this fool or myself says, do not deter it from your game experience. People will be people and you just have to deal with it, unfortunately. But ya, people like him ruin the game, so don't mind him at all.
The game has its problems, you play it for the fun factor, the gear, the achievement, work on your own pace, pugs are a plenty and most are bad, that is common, get into a casual end game guild, people who like yourself have lives, unlike our lil buddy here who lives in his mom's basement and is probably 40 already, eating cheetos and twinkies. PvP, craft, make yourself noteworthy in that respect, do a heroic with some guild here and there, make friends, network, it is a social network, isn't it johnny. But ya, for whatever reason, just don't forget to have fun, if it is not, then why play the game still....
I'm not going to appologize for myself or for anyone else. These are games, if you want to play you have to play by the rules. More importantly, in these game worlds there are certain norms and values and expectations that are created within the game's culture. This culture includes achievement linking and such as the OP mentions. You have two options. A) complain about it like a loser
figure out what you need to do to "fit in" It's basic human social dynamics. And yes, they apply to online game worlds. They involve human interaction don't they? Moral of the story: Deal with it, or don't bitch.
Little children whine and complain and go on and on about what they can't have and can't do. Adults view these things as challenges to overcome.
Which are you?
Nice. Soooo, based on your viewpoint we should bitch about things that bug us and just accept it? If that were the case this world would be A LOT different than it is. Criticism itself is a social dynamic and usually it causes things to change for the better. I suggest you do some further study of how social dynamics work instead of just posting "STFU and deal with it or fit in."
I'm not going to appologize for myself or for anyone else. These are games, if you want to play you have to play by the rules. More importantly, in these game worlds there are certain norms and values and expectations that are created within the game's culture. This culture includes achievement linking and such as the OP mentions. You have two options. A) complain about it like a loser
figure out what you need to do to "fit in" It's basic human social dynamics. And yes, they apply to online game worlds. They involve human interaction don't they? Moral of the story: Deal with it, or don't bitch.
Little children whine and complain and go on and on about what they can't have and can't do. Adults view these things as challenges to overcome.
Which are you?
Nice. Soooo, based on your viewpoint we should bitch about things that bug us and just accept it? If that were the case this world would be A LOT different than it is. Criticism itself is a social dynamic and usually it causes things to change for the better. I suggest you do some further study of how social dynamics work instead of just posting "STFU and deal with it or fit in."
Sounds like what so many "law and order" types have said about dealing with the cops. It doesn't matter what they say or do, just DO IT(or get tased or shot). Such an entitlement mentality is the natural out growth of the above. Which of course explains all too many of them acting like an army of occupation, rather than peace officers serving the citizens of their communities.
The armory and achievements have been used more and more to divide the player base, into those who place the game above most other things in terms of time/energy/effort and those of us that have lives outside of the game. Its all too typical of human psychology, and was only to be expected when the armory and achievements were added.
Min/max players are rarely the best players. WoW is not a difficult game, it is absolutely eons behind Everquest in that regard.
If you rely on crap like who has been where and who has what gear, you obviously do not comprehend that in EVERY SINGLE MMO and EVERY SINGLE JOB IN RL on the face of the earth, there are 20 percent who carry the rest on their talent.
The rest are just following orders or cannon fodder. What this means is your gear and titles and what not are not an accurate indication of talent, when all you really have to do is SHOW UP.
If someone is ignorant enough to exclude people from a raid because they have not done it yet, they are just petty little pouches filled with vinegar and water with a nozzle on the end.
WoW raids are NOT that hard, period. The entire game is aimed at the lowest common denominator, and now you have people who are basically the bottom of the barrel with gear and such handed to them telling skilled players they cannot participate because of _________.
Happy Happy Joy Joy.
Elitism is never, ever a good thing. Elitism is no different than griefing, its just a different form of it.
Edit: I forgot to add this: No amount of gear or acheivments or whatever will make a PUG flow like a group of people who play together regularly.
PUGS are the devil, especially on ANY raid content.
Here is one for ya, imagine going up to 25 random people on the street and asking them to build an airplane which you will then attempt to fly. That is a PUG.
Exactly. Obviously there are quite a few people who don't sit around all day whining like children, instead they are enjoying themselves actually playing. I troll these forums and try to be "the bad guy" when I'm bored at work, it's fun. Forums are one of my favorite time-wasters.
It just saddens me so much to see soooooooo much idiocy on MMO forums.
Our opinion is immaterial... well too bad, we'll give it anyway.... let's work from the bottom up...
"It just saddens me so much to see soooooo much idiocy on MMO forums."
Well I have to agree, idiocy however is rampant anywhere, you yourself is one as am I (hard that may seem to accept) but we learn to deal with it, and we try not to involve others in it.... as much.
"Forums are one of my favorite time-wasters."
Yes, this is true, I swear, gotta love forums at times, it has a myriad of posts, both stupid like yours and mine.
"I troll these forums and try to be "the bad guy" when I'm bored at work, it's fun."
So true, everyone loves to bash on a great bad guy, you must be THAT kind of geek who doesn't get any respect from his parents despite achieving so much and now has turned emo for everyone to bash, "woe is me"
"Obviously there are quite a few people who don't sit around all day whining like children, instead they are enjoying themselves actually playing."
Again, obviously you don't fit the bill since you are here whackin on everyone else in forums, so that means you are part of the problem rather than the solution, you just proved you yourself have some form of life outside wow, and that side consists of being the forum bad guy wannabe, since you more likely don't have the balls to do so in real life. It explains so much about you, Sensei you have taught us so well this forum on how to be an awesome judge of character. (just by looking at em)
"Exactly"
Yes, you are a douchebag. At least we got that thing clear enough.
Stop posing, you ain't no hardcore gamer, just a wannabe elite (elite as wannabe, oh yeah), prolly someone who bought their account on eBay, someone who can't hang, and can just bash people in forums, you're that level 1 alt in WoW Forums causing trouble, cause you ain't got balls to back up and bash others on your main. So sad.....
Comments
Basically, what I'm saying isn't the current endgame isn't very user friendly.
In order to contribute, people have to do research - either by reading or talking to other more experienced players. You can't just jump right in and expect to be able to contribute.
But there's no real pointers in the game saying "this is what you must do" or "Now you must learn to play, here's where to start". Which can be off-putting to people, since up until endgame, Warcraft is so incredibly friendly and forgiving.
There just a huge discontinuity between the easy levelling process, and the endgame, which is as hardcore as any other MMO out there. There really should be something in the game to help bridge that gap.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
I can understand why players choose to only recruit/party with other players that have a certain achievement. There is nothing worse than failing at a PUG just because someone doesn't knows what he is doing. But still, I agree that using the achievements in this way in part.. ruins the social aspect of the game.
Myself for example, I had top Naxx 25 gear and I couldn't do the VOA10/25 Emalon boss when Patch 3.2 came out due to work, when I logged in 2 days after I was already being asked for the achievement or no invite.. This is what may be considered "extreme".. People are not even giving time for others to accomplish anything.. took me 4 weeks for someone to let me join a group -_- for something so freaking easy..
My suggestion? PvP. Nothing is more fun then grouping up with other players with one common goal to kill other players and crush there goal. I can't see doing the same dungeon with the same bosses that do the samething everytime you fight them. You can say what you want about PvP, that its the same Battleground and you go through the same motions. But being your opponent is actually a real live person on the opposite keyboad. The experiance does change game to game, arena to arena.
Even though some AV games have been jeopardized from players wanting the Blitz achievement.
How is this any different than the old waiting lines to get into "PuG" raids in say EQ? End game Raiding has always been a bit "elitist" in the sense that people want to go with a good solid group because no one wants to invest 6hrs+ with a pack of idiots and fail.
Now what he didn't mention is how required the addons are. When you start requiring raiders to have 3rd party "assists" loaded, I call BS.
-Amen
Your opinion is immaterial.
Elitists like this guy is probably a big reason why the OP wrote the article. Arrogant players who think that their experience in a pixelated environment makes them a better person than someone else. Specificly pointing out the comment about his #5 comment, that's as arrogant as they come...Impress me early he says, laughable at best. If anything, other players should be offering to guide others through the raids that haven't and that need to learn the raids, not be self-centered jerks about it.
Blizzard probably didn't know how the system would be handled down the road like one of the other posters said, BUT now that that system has been in place for a couple years now they have had plenty of time to recognize and correct the oversight which they haven't. It's not just WoW that is infected with the attitude but Lotro is becoming the same way, partly because some of the WoW raiders got bored failing or getting denied by raids in WoW so they went to Lotro to pull the same elitist mentality. I have played Lotro since alpha, it was never as bad as it is now ever since MoM came out. I have great raid gear and max lvl toons in both mmo's but I did it by grouping with friends who helped me learn the raids and in turn I help others when I can.
I keep note of jerks like the above poster I quoted and if those guys go LFG they get denied and if they happen to ask me to their group, I decline. I play by my own terms, not theirs.
It's a game.
It's a game with rules.
Want to play the game, play by the rules.
Get over yourself.
No one deserves anything unless they work towards it. It's true in life and it's true in end-game in a MMORPG like WoW. If you don't wanna put in the effort to play the game, don't expect the rewards and don't expect those who DO put in the effort to give you the time of day.
Your opinion is immaterial.
I'm not going to appologize for myself or for anyone else.
These are games, if you want to play you have to play by the rules.
More importantly, in these game worlds there are certain norms and values and expectations that are created within the game's culture.
This culture includes achievement linking and such as the OP mentions.
You have two options.
A) complain about it like a loser
figure out what you need to do to "fit in"
It's basic human social dynamics. And yes, they apply to online game worlds. They involve human interaction don't they?
Moral of the story:
Deal with it, or don't bitch.
Little children whine and complain and go on and on about what they can't have and can't do. Adults view these things as challenges to overcome.
Which are you?
Your opinion is immaterial.
This post is one of the main reasons I left WoW recently. For a casual gamer like myself its gets old seeing high-end loot and tough-guy raid leaders posting non stop in trade channel. I mean come on....its pixels..its not real life....LOL. WoW has really turned into a loot fest, which is said because Lich King was an awesome expansion.
When I play WoW I only pvp so I can avoid the dungeons/raids and the crowd it draws. Because of this I've been able to play wow with a more laid back and casual approach. I've no interest in raids or hardmode dungeons myself so WoW for me is pretty relaxing and stress-free. :-)
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
I think there is a lot that is being overlooked in this thread.
First, believe it or not there are many people who enjoy achievements for exactly what they are and they never factor into some raiding job resume.
Beyond that, there is nothing stopping anyone from forming their own pugs, raids, guilds, co-ops and not demanding prospects to link their achievements. I join enough pugs and don't have this problem. I don't deny that it doesn't happen, but there is enough going in the game that is always an alternative. If someone asks for my achievements, then I thank them and politely decline.
There are plenty of people of all walks of life in wow and it is pretty easy to find enough like minded people to get most anything done. If you can't get invited to a pug, then get off your duff and start your own.
This post is a great example of why I decided to quit WoW (nothing personal against you, johnspartan).
Here's the thing: I'm a very competent gamer w/ tons of experience and I don't just learn the class I play - I know it inside and out. And yet somehow there's always some stat-mongering group/guild/raid leader pissing and moaning that I "need" X in order to do Y.
Hey folks... remember the "G" in "MMORPG" stands for "Game".
Having purples and reading a strategy guide doesn't make you a good player. When will people realize this?
Your typical WoW head isnt he? LOL I sometimes wish they would stick these type of gamers on a server of their own away from the folks with a life.
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
Not sure where your from or how old you are, but you are now officially my hero....
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
I still don't understand why the author doesn't fix his own problem by either:
a. Starting his own PuG.
b. Finding and joining a guild that matches his playstyle/availability/raiding desires.
or
c. Starting a guild that matches his playstyle/availability/raiding desires. He can even call it "No Achvmnts No Prblm."
because that would make sense and be logical and NOTHING on this forum or this entire site ever makes sense nor is anything ever logical and actually thought out.
People just like to b!tch because they can't hang with the big boys.
Boohoo. Life isn't fair, online video games aren't either. Anything involving human interaction will never be fair and balanced, some people are just better or worse or different or have more/less time etc. etc.
This entire debate is f*cking pointless, as was the OP's cry-fest little rant.
To use popular forum lingo...
l2play or gtfo
Your opinion is immaterial.
You know what really grinds my gears?
The title of the article and thread.
"LFM Ulduar 25, PST Stats and Achievement"
You really miss the point don't you?
Ulduar 25-man is, right now, the pinnacle of raiding in WoW. It's the highest level raid dungeon available in the game, and as such is (in the current game at level 80) the most challenging raid dungeon in the game.
And you want to PUG it?
Until 3.2 comes out and the Argent Colliseum thing, Ulduar is the cutting-edge of raiding. It's the end-game. You really think it's fair the the end-game cutting edge raid dungeon be PUGable?
Are you kidding me?
Some of us LIKE a bit of challenge and think it's FUN to tackle difficult content and succeed. You want to go and PUG Naxx/OS/Maly go ahead.
I suppose you want the Argent Colliseum to be PUGable too right? I mean, God forbid they release new content that actually is challenging and requires a coordinated, well rehersed TEAM of players to defeat instead of some random hodge-podge assortment of players better known as a PUG.
Your opinion is immaterial.
Narrow minded a bit, aren't we? Your view of MMOs is one of the most closed-minded I've ever read. "MMOs are about pugs" - really!? "Leveling is an annoyance" - to you, maybe, but not to people who actually enjoy a broader sense of MMOs.
If pugs are your favorite way to play, fine, more power to you. If you hate to level - I've leveled many toons, I get it, but that's you, not every person in the game. I still like to level characters. If you don't role play at all, great, WoW especially is the place to be, knock yourself out, but some of us actually have character concepts and do role-play at least a little bit. If you don't like guilds, or hard-core raiding teams, fine, but many people do. If you don't like casual guilds, fine, but many people do.
I can go on and on about what MMORPG games ARE, that you deny because you don't play that way. They are about many styles of play, bottom line, in a vast world (hopefully). There is room for all kinds of players. Quit speaking as if they are all like you; they aren't. Your blinders are so big you practically have tunnel vision.
I never got to your point about achievements; frankly, I stopped reading where it became apparent that your prejudice is so huge I could care less what else you have to say. If you want me to pay attention to you, then stop speaking as though you talk for everyone when who you are really talking for is YOURSELF. I'm sick of that attitude.
Clue: we aren't all the same. Get it, or shut up about MMOs.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
"Raiding has become elite."
Uhh...raiding hasn't been considered elite since pre-TBC. When everyone has access to something it cease to be elite.
A bit too emotional guys, WoW is really a fairly casual game, even as far as raiding goes. No need to get so upset.
Back to the OP's concern.
WoW as a game offers a wide range of possible gameplay from the most casual and fun oriented to some semi serious raiders. I talk using my own experience.
I have 2 bunch of alts, one bunch from an american server Medivh, mainly for fun, as my home and friends start there. We all once live in the east coast. Now we are all split up. WoW for us is pure fun. We play all sorts of crazy things from 5 melee instance runs (wipes) to fishing contest. Now these players do not care much about achievement and see this game feature as extra fun. Tell you what we all go nake and jump from every building, flying boat and so on to get that achievement where u did not die after jumping and ends up with 1hp.
My other server is oceanic, and we do raids. Yes I also pug when I missed the raid start for the week due to work. Raid guilds put in a lot of effort to make the raid work, mimimize failures. The cost of a raid is immense, especially during progression, 20-30 wipes per run for a boss. One mistake from one member, one DC or one lag and its all over. Imagine getting boss to 1% and someone forgot to kill the tree that heals freya. Oh, rerun from 100% again.
Now raid guild picks members seriously. 24 sad faces if one does a foolish move. Regular ulduar raid guild will bring you to 25naxx and run you through and read the recounts and wws, they will also do heroics with you to gain a feel. Achievements are less of a concern, they got time to really work it out with you before recruiting into guild.
I also pug. Yes you can PUG ulduar, we did that regularly, even hard mode. I got 4 tower up FL hard mode from a PUG, after wiping for 2 nights. Some PUGs are as serious as regular raids b/c they still want it done. If they do not know you first hand, they have to decide wether to accept you, in 1 minute or less. On what basis can they use to decide? Gear, achievement. Its like a temporary staff recruitment for a day. Tell me what high school you attend.
Is that discrimination, yvmv. A choice of candidate has to be made, don't blame the tool used. Achievement is just the tool, gear check is just the tool.
Can the OP form his 25man? It depends. If he does not know the boss fight, he need to find raid leaders who knows. Good raid leaders usually start his own raids, a random nobody forming a 25man ulduar will not attract the veteran 25man raiders. No one wants to kill FL after 10 wipes, got saved and fell apart b/c the raid can go no further. No good raiders want to do that till maybe monday when server is about to reset in 20 hours.
For raiding players, yes, the OP does point out some issues. People are being assessed and selected. Some usual tools are gear check and acheivement. Those without will have to run heroics to gain friends or pug 10s and late monday 25s trying to get achievements. Its like an entry ticket. With naxx gear + H gear, you pass the gear check. PUG 10man to holdir and thorim, and maybe 25man FL and you can try to join the regular 25man teams when they have ppl offline or DCed.
OP's bitterness we all know, we have been there. But he seems to have vent excessively against the tool. Achievevment is not designed with a bad motive. Many achievements are really fun. It just happened that some boss kill achievements are also convenient tools for raid leaders to assess quality of PUG members.
At the end of the day, you need to enjoy the game to justify all the expenses. From ass long hours to monthly sub. The OP seems to have missed this in his discussions
I get my epics from pvp and the argent tournament for now. I flat out refuse to raid. I don't have that kind of time and in all honesty the attitude of the raiding community leaves a lot to be desired. Now to make things worse Blizzard is adding that crap to the torunament.
The WoW achievement system is pretty gay in general. I'm an old school EQ player that has never been impressed or interested in the raid system WoW has in place. I have been on about 5 raids total and doubt I ever go again. The whole send me your age, weight and condom size is just a complete turn off on top of everything else.
The real issue with WoW is simply this, it's so easy to solo your way to lvl 80 that 95% of the players in the game have no clue how to play their character in a group once they reach lvl 80. It's like a bunch of people with ADD who ran out of ritalin behind those keyboards.
I've noticed this problem popping up lately. I had a druid geared in heroic gear and was told couldn't come to Naxx because he "wasn't geared". Should of been "wasn't acheived" maybe? This is silly of course as I have the knowledge from running Naxx with my pally, DK and mage.
All 25 raiders don't need the hard achievements to qualify for running a raid. Lately though it seems people are getting lazy and want the "easy" way to get the raid done. By having people that already did the raid so many times they have all the gear and the achievements. Course, if they have all the gear and achievements, why would they be raiding that place again in the first place?
In a 25 man you have a bit more "wiggle" room for error. I'd never do Sarth 3D 10 man with 1 or 2 people that didn't know what to do. I'd have no problem starting a 25 man one with a few people that didn't though, just explain it and let them learn. Remember all you people that are "Undying" and "Immortal", you were raider newbies at one point too.
Hmmm.... so johnspartan you're saying its a game...
Why yes it is... isn't it. A lot of these people are not asking for an apology really, especially not from you I think.
The game is what it is because of hard core end gamers. It is not made up of rules per se, the rules are made up by elitist factions such as yourself that sets the bar for everyone who are casual or who actually have LIVES. Not to say that such separation is wrong. People can choose who they want to play with, and if they are good enough. On an earlier post, you seem to be a good judge of character just by looking at them, so I will not delve into that further. In any MMORPG it is killed or be killed, the survival of the fittest, but honestly now, did you not start somewhere? And like you even said on an earlier post again, guilds carry certain people, you judge people so easily on certain things....
I played WoW since its inception, till prior to Ulduar. I have every achievement since then, have arena mounts, ala'r's phoenix, etc completed all the instances, pre BC onwards to LK dungeons 10/25 non/heroic, in a well known Korgath(US) guild from inception to its dissolution, and I have grown tired as such, and honestly, it is because of elitist people like you, my good sir, johneffinspartan who makes the game experience quite bad. It is people like you who ruin it for most others, and I know you could care any less but hey, I could care less either what you think about my response to you.
Also, I'm pretty sure you yourself, got carried through most of the instances gaining your achievements, and now just acting big on it. I feel sad for you.
As for the other WoW gamers, don't mind what this fool or myself says, do not deter it from your game experience. People will be people and you just have to deal with it, unfortunately. But ya, people like him ruin the game, so don't mind him at all.
The game has its problems, you play it for the fun factor, the gear, the achievement, work on your own pace, pugs are a plenty and most are bad, that is common, get into a casual end game guild, people who like yourself have lives, unlike our lil buddy here who lives in his mom's basement and is probably 40 already, eating cheetos and twinkies. PvP, craft, make yourself noteworthy in that respect, do a heroic with some guild here and there, make friends, network, it is a social network, isn't it johnny. But ya, for whatever reason, just don't forget to have fun, if it is not, then why play the game still....
Nice. Soooo, based on your viewpoint we should bitch about things that bug us and just accept it? If that were the case this world would be A LOT different than it is. Criticism itself is a social dynamic and usually it causes things to change for the better. I suggest you do some further study of how social dynamics work instead of just posting "STFU and deal with it or fit in."
Nice. Soooo, based on your viewpoint we should bitch about things that bug us and just accept it? If that were the case this world would be A LOT different than it is. Criticism itself is a social dynamic and usually it causes things to change for the better. I suggest you do some further study of how social dynamics work instead of just posting "STFU and deal with it or fit in."
Sounds like what so many "law and order" types have said about dealing with the cops. It doesn't matter what they say or do, just DO IT(or get tased or shot). Such an entitlement mentality is the natural out growth of the above. Which of course explains all too many of them acting like an army of occupation, rather than peace officers serving the citizens of their communities.
The armory and achievements have been used more and more to divide the player base, into those who place the game above most other things in terms of time/energy/effort and those of us that have lives outside of the game. Its all too typical of human psychology, and was only to be expected when the armory and achievements were added.
Min/max players are rarely the best players. WoW is not a difficult game, it is absolutely eons behind Everquest in that regard.
If you rely on crap like who has been where and who has what gear, you obviously do not comprehend that in EVERY SINGLE MMO and EVERY SINGLE JOB IN RL on the face of the earth, there are 20 percent who carry the rest on their talent.
The rest are just following orders or cannon fodder. What this means is your gear and titles and what not are not an accurate indication of talent, when all you really have to do is SHOW UP.
If someone is ignorant enough to exclude people from a raid because they have not done it yet, they are just petty little pouches filled with vinegar and water with a nozzle on the end.
WoW raids are NOT that hard, period. The entire game is aimed at the lowest common denominator, and now you have people who are basically the bottom of the barrel with gear and such handed to them telling skilled players they cannot participate because of _________.
Happy Happy Joy Joy.
Elitism is never, ever a good thing. Elitism is no different than griefing, its just a different form of it.
Edit: I forgot to add this: No amount of gear or acheivments or whatever will make a PUG flow like a group of people who play together regularly.
PUGS are the devil, especially on ANY raid content.
Here is one for ya, imagine going up to 25 random people on the street and asking them to build an airplane which you will then attempt to fly. That is a PUG.
Our opinion is immaterial... well too bad, we'll give it anyway.... let's work from the bottom up...
"It just saddens me so much to see soooooo much idiocy on MMO forums."
Well I have to agree, idiocy however is rampant anywhere, you yourself is one as am I (hard that may seem to accept) but we learn to deal with it, and we try not to involve others in it.... as much.
"Forums are one of my favorite time-wasters."
Yes, this is true, I swear, gotta love forums at times, it has a myriad of posts, both stupid like yours and mine.
"I troll these forums and try to be "the bad guy" when I'm bored at work, it's fun."
So true, everyone loves to bash on a great bad guy, you must be THAT kind of geek who doesn't get any respect from his parents despite achieving so much and now has turned emo for everyone to bash, "woe is me"
"Obviously there are quite a few people who don't sit around all day whining like children, instead they are enjoying themselves actually playing."
Again, obviously you don't fit the bill since you are here whackin on everyone else in forums, so that means you are part of the problem rather than the solution, you just proved you yourself have some form of life outside wow, and that side consists of being the forum bad guy wannabe, since you more likely don't have the balls to do so in real life. It explains so much about you, Sensei you have taught us so well this forum on how to be an awesome judge of character. (just by looking at em)
"Exactly"
Yes, you are a douchebag. At least we got that thing clear enough.
Stop posing, you ain't no hardcore gamer, just a wannabe elite (elite as wannabe, oh yeah), prolly someone who bought their account on eBay, someone who can't hang, and can just bash people in forums, you're that level 1 alt in WoW Forums causing trouble, cause you ain't got balls to back up and bash others on your main. So sad.....