I have kids and they like "cheat codes" and it seems this mentality has permeated games. Everyone wants a cheat code to get through things as fast as possible so they can stand on top of the mountain and say "look at me!" WoW is like a big MMO cheat code. And what's worse, they spawn children in the form of copycat MMO's. I often wonder if I was so enthralled with EQ1 because it was my first MMO but I don't think that's quite it. I felt part of the world of Norrath and I wanted to explore it. I remember talking to a guildmate and he had planned that if he got a certain amount of experience per day, he would be level 65 in 2 months...and he was already in his high 50's. Now you could do it in a day if you wanted to. The difficulty and length of time advancing your character made me feel that I had accomplished something. If I can level a toon from 1-40 in a month (most games you can do that actually faster) I feel no attatchment. If I get a level per week, well that's a character I have invested in. If it takes me an hour or 2 to get to the heart of a dungeon and if my party wipes we have to go back in with cheap replacement gear and get our stuff...that's EXCITEMENT! Especially if there is no bind point nearby. Of course inherent to this is the inevitable time sink, and different death consequences could alleviate it. But the current MMO status is -SUCK-. EVE, yeah good game but I want a mobile walking avatar. So is this all "pie in the sky" hoping? Am I too old being over 30 now to expect this? Are all MMO companies going to come out with a game that feels like I'm using cheat codes? Do any MMO companies have any desire to make a game that is challenging and balances risk/reward or are they all just trying to make us "feel" good and not hurt our self esteem and let us use RMT if we cant earn something ourselves? Are there enough folks like me who would pay to play this type of game or do all companies cater to 14 year olds now? Yes, I am ranting...and sorry....just wish I could find something to play
What difference does it make if doing something in a game takes several months or a few days (apart from wasting a portion of your life of course)? No matter how long it takes, that so-called "sense of accomplishment" is still just an illusion as you havent really "achieved" anything. All you have done is spent your time playing a computer game. Do you really find playing the same game for several months doing the same thing over and over again just so you can see the number 60, 70 or 80 appear on top of your character sheet exciting? Plenty of people find it bloody boring which is why mmos are cutting back on this level of tedium and I'm glad they are. If you find an mmo easy then just play through it, complete it and move onto another one. Thats far more interesting and varied than playing the same game for a stupidly long period of time.
Running through a dungeon an additional time after spending several hours in it just to pick up your original gear = EXCITEMENT (in capital letters too)?. Ermmm no thats not exciting at all. EQ1 was my first mmo too. I remember enjoying it a lot but I would never want to go back to corpse runs again where I have to waste hours of my time doing nothing but try and get my gear back. It doesnt even make any sense.
Oh and games companies arent catering to 14 year olds. They have just simply realised that most people dont want to dedicate great big chunks of their lives to repeating lots of long, drawn-out, repetitive, boring content for months on end just to see something new. Mmos are computer games. They are not supposed to be secondary jobs.
What I can't understand is how one can not find a game when there are just so many, most of which are pretty decent, games out there that cater to so many different types of people. Most of what you miss from the EQ days are the meaningless grinds that developers at the time added to the games to make up for a lack of content. You say you want a learning curve. Well everygame has one. Each game has its own set of classes and its own gameplay. People don't want to play video games that require hours apon hours to understand. They play them to have fun. Because in essence they are all just toys for our entertainment. It's really sad that people have come to forget this very simple fact.
Being a gamer isn't a special title.
Who gives a shit if the player cheats, plays everygame on easy or is into hard games?
It doesn't mean shit!
If you look in the mirror and call yourself a gamer I suggest you reevaluate your life.
someone who plays games is no more special than a person who like Card games or checkers.
The mmo indurstry is a copycat league. WoW had success and then you saw a slew of mmos copy it except for a certain few. That tells me riight there that the majority of developers have no clue about what gamers want. When devs stop worrying about money and concentrate of making a great mmos that is when we will get better games. Until that time happens then it is going to be the same thing over and over.
What I can't understand is how one can not find a game when there are just so many, most of which are pretty decent, games out there that cater to so many different types of people. Most of what you miss from the EQ days are the meaningless grinds that developers at the time added to the games to make up for a lack of content. You say you want a learning curve. Well everygame has one. Each game has its own set of classes and its own gameplay. People don't want to play video games that require hours apon hours to understand. They play them to have fun. Because in essence they are all just toys for our entertainment. It's really sad that people have come to forget this very simple fact.
Wel I am one of those people who can not find a MMORPG to enjoy, the reason is mostly I have been spoiled and "misinformed" as to me I always thought a game like Star Wars Galaxies where just the beginning of how deep a MMORPG could be, unfortunaly I was very wrong, from my experiance I have noticed that the majority does not want to think but treat.s a MMORPG just like they would play a multiplayer or singleplayer game.
Also what people fail to see is that grind is a playstyle that people do themself, me, I never grinded as I do not play games like a job but play pure for entertainment/fun/explore/discover/meet/socialize. This does not mean that those who grind are not having fun cause they certainly can have fun if that's what they like. I just personaly see people who grind to be working a job instead of having fun, doesn't me me right nor wrong.
"People don't want to play video games that require hours apon hours to understand"
I might be wrong but didn't we and still have numerous of game genre's that already perfected that, problem is that the majority actualy never liked MMORPG, but due to them being servered and listened to this genre has been dumped down as much as it is today.
Also something I notice that get's ignored is that not everyone is playing games pure for it's feature's, a example I love many if not most of Vanguards feature's, yet the gameworld, evne if I did feel it looked good, didn't appeal to me as I feel more for a Sci Fi type of world, same for me with EVE though I don't see it really as a MMORPG it has many feature's I really love, but just being a spaceship is to me a big turn of regardless how great the gameplay might be.
Also keep in mind that not everyone is new with games some of us might have 20/30 or more years of gaming experiance, meaning that we want something new, ofcourse something new to the new gen gamer might be old to the old school gamer.
Overall I wish people would understand that grind/timesinks are things people do to themselfs as it's NOT needed in a MMORPG, unless people play games like a job. As to me only those type of people will complain or speak about grind or timesinks.
I hear a lot of people saying i made max level in a few weeks. Around how much are you playing every week? Perhaps you are more hardcore, being a member of an mmo forum would indicate you are pretty serious about mmos. Alternatively a lot of people can't dedicate crazy amounts of time to games, so it wouldn't be fair to them if rewards came with a crazy time sink and yes challenge = time sink in mmos you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. That's why wow is good because there is content for the casual gamer (1-80,heroic instances), moderate (naxx) and the hardcore gamer (ulduar). If companies only catered to the hardcore gamer they'd make very little money. I'm all for more of a challenge though but I don't think time should come into it. That's why i play fpsers now because performance requires skill and not time.
hard work (what a shitty word to use for a game) - It is scary how put off people are nowadays of this term.
He's not put off by the term. He's put off by the use of it in regards to entertainment that he is paying for. Sometimes people are playing a game solely to be entertained. Personally, if I wanted to "work" and "pay my dues" for a "feeling of accomplishment" I would build a new jungle gym for my Son out in the backyard.
As a matter of fact, that's not a half bad idea. I think I have a cool new project to look forward to. Thanks, Havok!
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I have come to realize it is more than the leveling being easy- and feeling OP no matter what class/gear you're in- it is the fact that games guide your every step... too many quests... the game spoons a little too hard... Playing WoW reminds me of a linear console mmo- you're just playing out a predetermined story, not making your own. Hmmm well actually all mmos have always had a pre-determined story that the player can choose to follow to some degree. Afterall there really isnt much else to do except kill things and go up levels. Thats why they arent really proper roleplaying games. If you remove the built in story from games like WoW (or any mmo really) then what do you have left? A 3d landscape with graphics of monsters to click on. These mmos dont have any tools or functions to allow the player to make up their own adventures because nothing can ever happen in the gameworld as everything is static and unchangeable. All the monsters and treasure respawns. There is no ability to take over settlements, befriend the local blacksmith, become an apprentice to that mysterious wizard in that tower on that hill over there, rescue the farmers daughter who got kidnapped by kobolds last night etc etc. You cant actually DO anything.....except kill monsters, collect treasure and go up levels. You can certainly "pretend" to be on a special adventure by typing whatever you like in the chat channel but the game doesnt cater to any creative input from the player so none of your "adventures" actually take place. In fact having pre-written stories in mmos dont prevent you from making your own stories up at all. You can just ignore those stories.....in the same way that the game ignores yours. Many people however prefer not to waste their time making up a story in a game that cant respond to their creativity. Instead they put their creativity into something else (such as playing an actual roleplaying game with friends for example) and use mmos to play through the interactive story provided. Afterall thats what the game actually is.....and all it can ever really be until devs decide to make it otherwise. I, like you have that EQ mind set and I really do feel it has a lot of what is missing in today's mmo market.... I don't want dots on my map telling me where quests are... glowy trails... linear BS... I want to be able to explore and talk to random npc's and find a random bit of information about something that might help me in a quest one day... How many capped characters can you have before you realize how trivial your progress has been... ....except that none of that "random information" is actually random at all. Its all pre-scripted, static and unchanging. So you're not really "stumbling across an npc" at all. Thats why there are loads of websites with complete guides for all the quests in these mmos. They give you exact coordinates of all the npcs, what they will say and where you need to go. Thats why I have no problem at all with dots on my map and glowing quest trails. The sense of "exploration" in these mmos has always been so weak that its hardly worth thinking about in my opinion......and over the years games designers have realised this too. If however npcs/quest givers in these games actually moved around and the quests changed depending on the time of day or the actions of other players so it was actually like a proper simulation of a game world (rather than an obviously static illusion of one) then my opinion would be different. I would be happy to wander around talking to npcs and I would find it exciting when one of them revealed something about an ancient shrine out in the woods, because I would know that not neccessarily everyone else knows about it. That shrine might have only become available as a quest as a result of someone elses actions. That would be exciting. That would be adventure. But mmos are'nt like that.......so I'm happy that I dont have to have my time wasted "exploring", which is really nothing more than holding my finger on the W key while I watch my avatar jog through a 3d landscape. Instead I can get on with playing the game, instead of having to look for the parts of the game which I can play. I don't know, I don't like bashing WoW as it did provide true entertainment for me in its vanilla years but I can't help but wonder when an MMO will capture the immersive world feeling like EQ did... and I do mean classic to velious... maybe luclin...it started getting silly after that... I mean I enjoyed PoP but... come on > > I dunno. The amusing thing is that the activities we all did in EQ1 arent really any different to what we can do in WoW. Its all basicly the same thing. The only difference is that in EQ1 everything was more time consuming and more "rough round the edges". I certainly remember feeling more immersed in the original EQ (not the shitty sequal) but I also know that its simply because it was my first mmo so it all seemed more magical at the time. If I went back to the game I would no doubt find it dreadfully boring and tedious. The same applies to the games on cassette tapes that I used to play as a kid on my ZX Spectrum 48k (yeah the one with the rubber keys lol). I loved it at the time but looking at those games now would be hilarious.
People who use cheat codes aren't gamers. Yes, it probably sounds elitist, but it's true. I used to know a guy who claimed he was a hardcore gamer and he cheated his way though about 90% of the games he actually ended up finishing. Most games he would just push aside after getting 25% in to them. How can you honestly look in the mirror and claim to be a gamer while using cheats, hacks, scripts, etc? Posers IMO.
Yeah because being a "gamer" is such a serious and cool thing to brag about lol.
Doctor?! Scientist?! Mechanic?! Programmer?! Pft! Call that something to be proud of? Well.....I'm a gamer. You might be able to save lives, manipulate our world, fix vehicles or make software but.......I can sit on my lazy arse and play games AND on top of that I dont cheat. Now that requires REAL effort and commitment.
Hmmm well actually all mmos have always had a pre-determined story that the player can choose to follow to some degree. Afterall there really isnt much else to do except kill things and go up levels. Thats why they arent really proper roleplaying games. If you remove the built in story from games like WoW (or any mmo really) then what do you have left? A 3d landscape with graphics of monsters to click on.
Try Ultima Online, EVE Online, A Tale in the Desert, or Wurm Online.
There are MMOs where players can affect and change the world and and MMOs where players can engage in a meaningful path of progression that doesn't involve killing things. Some MMOs even have both.
Not every MMO is an EQ variant.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
He's not put off by the term. He's put off by the use of it in regards to entertainment that he is paying for. Sometimes people are playing a game solely to be entertained. Personally, if I wanted to "work" and "pay my dues" for a "feeling of accomplishment" I would build a new jungle gym for my Son out in the backyard.
As a matter of fact, that's not a half bad idea. I think I have a cool new project to look forward to. Thanks, Havok!
Good for you! I just did that for my son about 3 months ago :P Next, badass tree house like I had when I was a kid!
He's not put off by the term. He's put off by the use of it in regards to entertainment that he is paying for. - Just because you are paying for something doesn't mean you shouldn't commit hard work towards the endeavor. People pay for training in something they enjoy, and a trainer expects real effort. If he/she doesn't expect real effort, they are just after your money.
Culture in many countries is rapidly moving towards instant results with little effort. Modernization is the culprit. New technology is great, but too often people expect it to do all the work and we sit back and reap the rewards. The pride of working hard to accomplish something is being lost.
Culture in many countries is rapidly moving towards instant results with little effort. Modernization is the culprit. New technology is great, but too often people expect it to do all the work and we sit back and reap the rewards. The pride of working hard to accomplish something is being lost.
And there is NOTHING wrong with it. Just a change. Culture changes all the time.
In the old days, PHYSICAL labor is rated much higher than mental labor. That is obviously NOT TRUE anymore in this modern work. And we DO sit around and reap the rewards of modern technology.
Just look at food. People use to spend MOST OF THEIR RESOURCE to get enough food. Now food is a SMALL % of our income. The work week has shrinked. Children no longer need to work.
We should just embrace the changes because change will occur whether you like it or not.
And there is NOTHING wrong with it. Just a change. Culture changes all the time.
In the old days, PHYSICAL labor is rated much higher than mental labor. That is obviously NOT TRUE anymore in this modern work. And we DO sit around and reap the rewards of modern technology.
Just look at food. People use to spend MOST OF THEIR RESOURCE to get enough food. Now food is a SMALL % of our income. The work week has shrinked. Children no longer need to work.
We should just embrace the changes because change will occur whether you like it or not.
Ah, but there is something wrong with it, it fosters laziness. I'm not condemning technology, because I love it and I keep up with it daily. But I use it to relieve certain limitations in my life so that can do more than I could before, not less.
Once upon a time there were some MMOs like Ultima Online, Dark age of Camelot, Everquest and Asheron's Call.
If you had a strong preference for PvP or PvE then the list was probably shorter.
(There was also games like Lineage and Final Fantasy which I wasn't aware of at the time.)
Some people liked these games as they were, and some only played them because of limited choice.
Most of these games gradually got spoiled over the years because the graphics got dated, or players got burned out after playing for years or misguided expansions messed up the balance or a sequel made to counter the first two problems changed the core game much more than the existing fans wanted.
However a lot of people still liked the core original game.
In the meantime Blizzard figured out the exact configuarion of design decisions that would make MMORPGs go mainstream through not only attracting existing players who were only playing games like EQ out of lack of choice but also drawing in literally millions of new people.
Since then game companies have mostly tried to copy the core gameplay of WoW but with some kind of USP thrown in.
There's some unknown number of people who would like an updated version of the games they used to like but with improved graphics and a WoW-like commitment to polish.
I think there's probably enough of them to support a game with a niche level of subs but we won't find out till someone tries.
Originally posted by Havok2all Culture in many countries is rapidly moving towards instant results with little effort. Modernization is the culprit. New technology is great, but too often people expect it to do all the work and we sit back and reap the rewards. The pride of working hard to accomplish something is being lost.
The problem is when the 'hard work' is done simply for the sake of 'hard work'. Digging a 4 foot hole in the ground using only your hands is 'hard work' but would be considered silly if you had a shovel to do it with. Does the fact that you dug the hole with a shovel mean that you too the easy way out and should not have pride in what you have done?
With every activity there is a way to do it 'harder'. However, at a certain point it becomes just silly to do it that way unless you are doing it for a goal other than the original one. You have to ask yourself whether your 'harder' way is not really just the 'stupider' way.
I take a lot of pride in what I accomplish in WoW (considering that it is still just a game). I am not sure I would feel as much pride if I was forced to play it the way EQ played since the meaning of the game and what I am trying to accomplish would be different. Grinding out levels for months just does not seem like real 'hard work' or something to be proud of.
A month of questing for levels does not sound like "everything handed to you". Plus, I think WOW will take like at least something like 10 days play to level to 80 (without professions & stuff). That is 240 hrs & if you play 3 hrs a day, that is 80 days .. almost 3 months. That is a significant chunk of anyone's time. Plus, that is what most people like. If you don't like it, you don't have to play. There are enough players.
You don't think playing 3 hours a day for a culmination of 3 months to attain 80 levels is not too simplistic? I mean the levels are a symbolic representation of training yourself into a honed and well skilled fighter ready to battle the greatest threats the world has to offer? That can be accomplished in three months?
To reach such an objective should have some semblance of realism in the sense that hard work and dedication are required. Obviously a game can't require 20 years, but some form dedication is required for a feeling of achievement. The greatest successes in life only come from hard work and dedication. The is what generates pride. The recent crop of games fail to generate this sense of pride from success.
I'm not saying there can't be games like WoW, where instant gratification is the norm, but there needs to be games where hard work, time commitment and effort in an enjoyable environment are a necessity for success.
Of course not. That is 240 hrs and >10 times a SP game. We are talking about A GAME here.
"To reach such an objective should have some semblance of realism in the sense that hard work and dedication are required." ..... LOL .. we are talking about GAMES here. I have a real job and don't want one in my ENTERTAINMENT. tyvm.
THANK GOD most people are like me, or else there will be no reasonable entertainment.
And there is NOTHING wrong with it. Just a change. Culture changes all the time.
In the old days, PHYSICAL labor is rated much higher than mental labor. That is obviously NOT TRUE anymore in this modern work. And we DO sit around and reap the rewards of modern technology.
Just look at food. People use to spend MOST OF THEIR RESOURCE to get enough food. Now food is a SMALL % of our income. The work week has shrinked. Children no longer need to work.
We should just embrace the changes because change will occur whether you like it or not.
Ah, but there is something wrong with it, it fosters laziness. I'm not condemning technology, because I love it and I keep up with it daily. But I use it to relieve certain limitations in my life so that can do more than I could before, not less.
We are already a lot LAZIER than our forefathers in the 18th century. Do you want to wake up 5am everyday and work 16 hours a day in the fields?
LAZINESS -> leisure time .. is a GOOD THING. You get to do and achieve what you WANT instead of worrying about food & shelter.
The problem is when the 'hard work' is done simply for the sake of 'hard work'. Digging a 4 foot hole in the ground using only your hands is 'hard work' but would be considered silly if you had a shovel to do it with. Does the fact that you dug the hole with a shovel mean that you too the easy way out and should not have pride in what you have done?
With every activity there is a way to do it 'harder'. However, at a certain point it becomes just silly to do it that way unless you are doing it for a goal other than the original one. You have to ask yourself whether your 'harder' way is not really just the 'stupider' way.
I take a lot of pride in what I accomplish in WoW (considering that it is still just a game). I am not sure I would feel as much pride if I was forced to play it the way EQ played since the meaning of the game and what I am trying to accomplish would be different. Grinding out levels for months just does not seem like real 'hard work' or something to be proud of.
Ok, lets take your example. Lets say your job is to dig 4 foot holes. You could dig 1 four foot hole a day with your hands. Then, you receive a shovel that makes your job easier and quicker. You now can dig 1 four foot hole in one hour. With this shovel, you could now dig 8 of those a day, but your job dictates you dig only one hole. There is where the laziness generates. Many people would dig that one hole and call it a day instead of getting a jump on things and dig a lot of holes or using that extra time to help other employees or finding other things to help the business they work for daily.
Anyway, we are totally getting off subject about what this thread is about, and that is a MMORPG that has a real depth in immersion that requires true challenge to your tenacity that is truly enjoyable from lvl 1 thru max and requires a certain amount of dedication to actually reach a point where you can truly call yourself veteran of warfare. I am not saying get rid of all the WoW versions that many people enjoy, but there should be a next gen version that caters to the players who really want to test their mettle against a real challenge through commitment.
Originally posted by Havok2all Ok, lets take your example. Lets say your job is to dig 4 foot holes. You could dig 1 four foot hole a day with your hands. Then, you receive a shovel that makes your job easier and quicker. You now can dig 1 four foot hole in one hour. With this shovel, you could now dig 8 of those a day, but your job dictates you dig only one hole. There is where the laziness generates. Many people would dig that one hole and call it a day instead of getting a jump on things and dig a lot of holes or using that extra time to help other employees or finding other things to help the business they work for daily.
Now you are attaching additional riders to the issue and not showing all the circumstances. Are you only paid to dig one hole per day? Are you paid by the hour or by the hole? What are you doing with the extra free time? Heck, is the boss cheating your on your paycheck each week?
Even if you really are lazy, it does not change the fact that using the shovel to dig the hole was the right thing to do.
Originally posted by Havok2all
Anyway, we are totally getting off subject about what this thread is about, and that is a MMORPG that has a real depth in immersion that requires true challenge to your tenacity that is truly enjoyable from lvl 1 thru max and requires a certain amount of dedication to actually reach a point where you can truly call yourself veteran of warfare. I am not saying get rid of all the WoW versions that many people enjoy, but there should be a next gen version that caters to the players who really want to test their mettle against a real challenge through commitment.
Now you are confusing me. First you start off by describing World of Warcraft and then you say that you do not want a game like that. So do you really want a game where players can 'test their mettle against a real challenge through commitment' or not? Because to me WoW matches that description.
Originally posted by neonwire Yeah because being a "gamer" is such a serious and cool thing to brag about lol. Doctor?! Scientist?! Mechanic?! Programmer?! Pft! Call that something to be proud of? Well.....I'm a gamer. You might be able to save lives, manipulate our world, fix vehicles or make software but.......I can sit on my lazy arse and play games AND on top of that I dont cheat. Now that requires REAL effort and commitment.
It may shock you to know that much of being a programmer is routine grind. And I suspect exactly the same is true about every other one of the jobs you mentioned. Yes - they certainly have their challenging moments - and they take a cetain amount of skill. But they still have a lot of grind.
I work full as a professional programmer. And I stil take pride in how I contribute to my guild's raids in an MMO.
Originally posted by Havok2all Ok, lets take your example. Lets say your job is to dig 4 foot holes. You could dig 1 four foot hole a day with your hands. Then, you receive a shovel that makes your job easier and quicker. You now can dig 1 four foot hole in one hour. With this shovel, you could now dig 8 of those a day, but your job dictates you dig only one hole. There is where the laziness generates. Many people would dig that one hole and call it a day instead of getting a jump on things and dig a lot of holes or using that extra time to help other employees or finding other things to help the business they work for daily.
Now you are attaching additional riders to the issue and not showing all the circumstances. Are you only paid to dig one hole per day? Are you paid by the hour or by the hole? What are you doing with the extra free time? Heck, is the boss cheating your on your paycheck each week?
Even if you really are lazy, it does not change the fact that using the shovel to dig the hole was the right thing to do.
Originally posted by Havok2all
Anyway, we are totally getting off subject about what this thread is about, and that is a MMORPG that has a real depth in immersion that requires true challenge to your tenacity that is truly enjoyable from lvl 1 thru max and requires a certain amount of dedication to actually reach a point where you can truly call yourself veteran of warfare. I am not saying get rid of all the WoW versions that many people enjoy, but there should be a next gen version that caters to the players who really want to test their mettle against a real challenge through commitment.
Now you are confusing me. First you start off by describing World of Warcraft and then you say that you do not want a game like that. So do you really want a game where players can 'test their mettle against a real challenge through commitment' or not? Because to me WoW matches that description.
Actually, you are the one attaching additional riders. Regardless how deep and detailed I get about a hole digging job, my example still applies. Most people do only what they have to, not what they can.
My description of a challenging game doesn't describe WoW in any shape or form. You apparently find WoW to be challenging and fun, good for you. WoW may be all you need to fulfill your MMO needs to its fullest. Others like myself require a game that takes time to learn all the intricacies of what a class(s) can do, something that can't be accomplished in a couple months. Where player ingenuity finds a strategy to defeat a MoB, not figuring out the MoBs script just like everyone else.
I don't want a grindfest but I do want a more challenging game. Like make it so the mobs are actually tougher to fight. Maybe not spoon feed me and tell me exactly where to go to complete a quest.
When a game has a quest and mini map marker that is telling you to go here dumby to kill/pickup an item. Then that game is playing for the 12 yr olds. I can read my quest that tells me to kill x numbers of Giant Spiders and that is all I need to know. I can look around to find them. If a game marks on a mini map or gives me an arrow to follow then it is getting to EZ. The ones that are the funniest quests are the ones that say someone or something is lost and go this way to find them. People over the age of 20 do not need a marker to tell them go this way.
PTMMORPG (Pre Teen Massive Multiplayer Online RPG), welcome to the nightmare that we have walked into.
My description of a challenging game doesn't describe WoW in any shape or form. You apparently find WoW to be challenging and fun, good for you. WoW may be all you need to fulfill your MMO needs to its fullest. Others like myself require a game that takes time to learn all the intricacies of what a class(s) can do, something that can't be accomplished in a couple months. Where player ingenuity finds a strategy to defeat a MoB, not figuring out the MoBs script just like everyone else.
You are kidding me. You want to devote years to a GAME. Life is too short to spend that much effort in ONE game. I guess if that is what you like, it is your perogative.
I highly doubt there is a big market catering to that kind of extreme devotion.
The trend is to give easier content to most people, and reserve some harder content (hard mode in WOW) for the hardcore raiders. If you think WOW hardmode is not of a challenge, i highly doubt there are enough of you to support any MMOs.
Developers should not cater to such a niche audience anyway. Remember these are now mass entertainment. You can't ignore 99% of your audience and cater to just 1%.
My description of a challenging game doesn't describe WoW in any shape or form. You apparently find WoW to be challenging and fun, good for you. WoW may be all you need to fulfill your MMO needs to its fullest. Others like myself require a game that takes time to learn all the intricacies of what a class(s) can do, something that can't be accomplished in a couple months. Where player ingenuity finds a strategy to defeat a MoB, not figuring out the MoBs script just like everyone else.
You are kidding me. You want to devote years to a GAME. Life is too short to spend that much effort in ONE game. I guess if that is what you like, it is your perogative.
I highly doubt there is a big market catering to that kind of extreme devotion.
The trend is to give easier content to most people, and reserve some harder content (hard mode in WOW) for the hardcore raiders. If you think WOW hardmode is not of a challenge, i highly doubt there are enough of you to support any MMOs.
Developers should not cater to such a niche audience anyway. Remember these are now mass entertainment. You can't ignore 99% of your audience and cater to just 1%.
Comments
What difference does it make if doing something in a game takes several months or a few days (apart from wasting a portion of your life of course)? No matter how long it takes, that so-called "sense of accomplishment" is still just an illusion as you havent really "achieved" anything. All you have done is spent your time playing a computer game. Do you really find playing the same game for several months doing the same thing over and over again just so you can see the number 60, 70 or 80 appear on top of your character sheet exciting? Plenty of people find it bloody boring which is why mmos are cutting back on this level of tedium and I'm glad they are. If you find an mmo easy then just play through it, complete it and move onto another one. Thats far more interesting and varied than playing the same game for a stupidly long period of time.
Running through a dungeon an additional time after spending several hours in it just to pick up your original gear = EXCITEMENT (in capital letters too)?. Ermmm no thats not exciting at all. EQ1 was my first mmo too. I remember enjoying it a lot but I would never want to go back to corpse runs again where I have to waste hours of my time doing nothing but try and get my gear back. It doesnt even make any sense.
Oh and games companies arent catering to 14 year olds. They have just simply realised that most people dont want to dedicate great big chunks of their lives to repeating lots of long, drawn-out, repetitive, boring content for months on end just to see something new. Mmos are computer games. They are not supposed to be secondary jobs.
Being a gamer isn't a special title.
Who gives a shit if the player cheats, plays everygame on easy or is into hard games?
It doesn't mean shit!
If you look in the mirror and call yourself a gamer I suggest you reevaluate your life.
someone who plays games is no more special than a person who like Card games or checkers.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
The mmo indurstry is a copycat league. WoW had success and then you saw a slew of mmos copy it except for a certain few. That tells me riight there that the majority of developers have no clue about what gamers want. When devs stop worrying about money and concentrate of making a great mmos that is when we will get better games. Until that time happens then it is going to be the same thing over and over.
Wel I am one of those people who can not find a MMORPG to enjoy, the reason is mostly I have been spoiled and "misinformed" as to me I always thought a game like Star Wars Galaxies where just the beginning of how deep a MMORPG could be, unfortunaly I was very wrong, from my experiance I have noticed that the majority does not want to think but treat.s a MMORPG just like they would play a multiplayer or singleplayer game.
Also what people fail to see is that grind is a playstyle that people do themself, me, I never grinded as I do not play games like a job but play pure for entertainment/fun/explore/discover/meet/socialize. This does not mean that those who grind are not having fun cause they certainly can have fun if that's what they like. I just personaly see people who grind to be working a job instead of having fun, doesn't me me right nor wrong.
"People don't want to play video games that require hours apon hours to understand"
I might be wrong but didn't we and still have numerous of game genre's that already perfected that, problem is that the majority actualy never liked MMORPG, but due to them being servered and listened to this genre has been dumped down as much as it is today.
Also something I notice that get's ignored is that not everyone is playing games pure for it's feature's, a example I love many if not most of Vanguards feature's, yet the gameworld, evne if I did feel it looked good, didn't appeal to me as I feel more for a Sci Fi type of world, same for me with EVE though I don't see it really as a MMORPG it has many feature's I really love, but just being a spaceship is to me a big turn of regardless how great the gameplay might be.
Also keep in mind that not everyone is new with games some of us might have 20/30 or more years of gaming experiance, meaning that we want something new, ofcourse something new to the new gen gamer might be old to the old school gamer.
Overall I wish people would understand that grind/timesinks are things people do to themselfs as it's NOT needed in a MMORPG, unless people play games like a job. As to me only those type of people will complain or speak about grind or timesinks.
I hear a lot of people saying i made max level in a few weeks. Around how much are you playing every week? Perhaps you are more hardcore, being a member of an mmo forum would indicate you are pretty serious about mmos. Alternatively a lot of people can't dedicate crazy amounts of time to games, so it wouldn't be fair to them if rewards came with a crazy time sink and yes challenge = time sink in mmos you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. That's why wow is good because there is content for the casual gamer (1-80,heroic instances), moderate (naxx) and the hardcore gamer (ulduar). If companies only catered to the hardcore gamer they'd make very little money. I'm all for more of a challenge though but I don't think time should come into it. That's why i play fpsers now because performance requires skill and not time.
He's not put off by the term. He's put off by the use of it in regards to entertainment that he is paying for. Sometimes people are playing a game solely to be entertained. Personally, if I wanted to "work" and "pay my dues" for a "feeling of accomplishment" I would build a new jungle gym for my Son out in the backyard.
As a matter of fact, that's not a half bad idea. I think I have a cool new project to look forward to. Thanks, Havok!
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Yeah because being a "gamer" is such a serious and cool thing to brag about lol.
Doctor?! Scientist?! Mechanic?! Programmer?! Pft! Call that something to be proud of? Well.....I'm a gamer. You might be able to save lives, manipulate our world, fix vehicles or make software but.......I can sit on my lazy arse and play games AND on top of that I dont cheat. Now that requires REAL effort and commitment.
Try Ultima Online, EVE Online, A Tale in the Desert, or Wurm Online.
There are MMOs where players can affect and change the world and and MMOs where players can engage in a meaningful path of progression that doesn't involve killing things. Some MMOs even have both.
Not every MMO is an EQ variant.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
As a matter of fact, that's not a half bad idea. I think I have a cool new project to look forward to. Thanks, Havok!
Good for you! I just did that for my son about 3 months ago :P Next, badass tree house like I had when I was a kid!
He's not put off by the term. He's put off by the use of it in regards to entertainment that he is paying for. - Just because you are paying for something doesn't mean you shouldn't commit hard work towards the endeavor. People pay for training in something they enjoy, and a trainer expects real effort. If he/she doesn't expect real effort, they are just after your money.
Culture in many countries is rapidly moving towards instant results with little effort. Modernization is the culprit. New technology is great, but too often people expect it to do all the work and we sit back and reap the rewards. The pride of working hard to accomplish something is being lost.
And there is NOTHING wrong with it. Just a change. Culture changes all the time.
In the old days, PHYSICAL labor is rated much higher than mental labor. That is obviously NOT TRUE anymore in this modern work. And we DO sit around and reap the rewards of modern technology.
Just look at food. People use to spend MOST OF THEIR RESOURCE to get enough food. Now food is a SMALL % of our income. The work week has shrinked. Children no longer need to work.
We should just embrace the changes because change will occur whether you like it or not.
In the old days, PHYSICAL labor is rated much higher than mental labor. That is obviously NOT TRUE anymore in this modern work. And we DO sit around and reap the rewards of modern technology.
Just look at food. People use to spend MOST OF THEIR RESOURCE to get enough food. Now food is a SMALL % of our income. The work week has shrinked. Children no longer need to work.
We should just embrace the changes because change will occur whether you like it or not.
Ah, but there is something wrong with it, it fosters laziness. I'm not condemning technology, because I love it and I keep up with it daily. But I use it to relieve certain limitations in my life so that can do more than I could before, not less.
Once upon a time there were some MMOs like Ultima Online, Dark age of Camelot, Everquest and Asheron's Call.
If you had a strong preference for PvP or PvE then the list was probably shorter.
(There was also games like Lineage and Final Fantasy which I wasn't aware of at the time.)
Some people liked these games as they were, and some only played them because of limited choice.
Most of these games gradually got spoiled over the years because the graphics got dated, or players got burned out after playing for years or misguided expansions messed up the balance or a sequel made to counter the first two problems changed the core game much more than the existing fans wanted.
However a lot of people still liked the core original game.
In the meantime Blizzard figured out the exact configuarion of design decisions that would make MMORPGs go mainstream through not only attracting existing players who were only playing games like EQ out of lack of choice but also drawing in literally millions of new people.
Since then game companies have mostly tried to copy the core gameplay of WoW but with some kind of USP thrown in.
There's some unknown number of people who would like an updated version of the games they used to like but with improved graphics and a WoW-like commitment to polish.
I think there's probably enough of them to support a game with a niche level of subs but we won't find out till someone tries.
The problem is when the 'hard work' is done simply for the sake of 'hard work'. Digging a 4 foot hole in the ground using only your hands is 'hard work' but would be considered silly if you had a shovel to do it with. Does the fact that you dug the hole with a shovel mean that you too the easy way out and should not have pride in what you have done?
With every activity there is a way to do it 'harder'. However, at a certain point it becomes just silly to do it that way unless you are doing it for a goal other than the original one. You have to ask yourself whether your 'harder' way is not really just the 'stupider' way.
I take a lot of pride in what I accomplish in WoW (considering that it is still just a game). I am not sure I would feel as much pride if I was forced to play it the way EQ played since the meaning of the game and what I am trying to accomplish would be different. Grinding out levels for months just does not seem like real 'hard work' or something to be proud of.
You don't think playing 3 hours a day for a culmination of 3 months to attain 80 levels is not too simplistic? I mean the levels are a symbolic representation of training yourself into a honed and well skilled fighter ready to battle the greatest threats the world has to offer? That can be accomplished in three months?
To reach such an objective should have some semblance of realism in the sense that hard work and dedication are required. Obviously a game can't require 20 years, but some form dedication is required for a feeling of achievement. The greatest successes in life only come from hard work and dedication. The is what generates pride. The recent crop of games fail to generate this sense of pride from success.
I'm not saying there can't be games like WoW, where instant gratification is the norm, but there needs to be games where hard work, time commitment and effort in an enjoyable environment are a necessity for success.
Of course not. That is 240 hrs and >10 times a SP game. We are talking about A GAME here.
"To reach such an objective should have some semblance of realism in the sense that hard work and dedication are required." ..... LOL .. we are talking about GAMES here. I have a real job and don't want one in my ENTERTAINMENT. tyvm.
THANK GOD most people are like me, or else there will be no reasonable entertainment.
In the old days, PHYSICAL labor is rated much higher than mental labor. That is obviously NOT TRUE anymore in this modern work. And we DO sit around and reap the rewards of modern technology.
Just look at food. People use to spend MOST OF THEIR RESOURCE to get enough food. Now food is a SMALL % of our income. The work week has shrinked. Children no longer need to work.
We should just embrace the changes because change will occur whether you like it or not.
Ah, but there is something wrong with it, it fosters laziness. I'm not condemning technology, because I love it and I keep up with it daily. But I use it to relieve certain limitations in my life so that can do more than I could before, not less.
We are already a lot LAZIER than our forefathers in the 18th century. Do you want to wake up 5am everyday and work 16 hours a day in the fields?
LAZINESS -> leisure time .. is a GOOD THING. You get to do and achieve what you WANT instead of worrying about food & shelter.
The problem is when the 'hard work' is done simply for the sake of 'hard work'. Digging a 4 foot hole in the ground using only your hands is 'hard work' but would be considered silly if you had a shovel to do it with. Does the fact that you dug the hole with a shovel mean that you too the easy way out and should not have pride in what you have done?
With every activity there is a way to do it 'harder'. However, at a certain point it becomes just silly to do it that way unless you are doing it for a goal other than the original one. You have to ask yourself whether your 'harder' way is not really just the 'stupider' way.
I take a lot of pride in what I accomplish in WoW (considering that it is still just a game). I am not sure I would feel as much pride if I was forced to play it the way EQ played since the meaning of the game and what I am trying to accomplish would be different. Grinding out levels for months just does not seem like real 'hard work' or something to be proud of.
Ok, lets take your example. Lets say your job is to dig 4 foot holes. You could dig 1 four foot hole a day with your hands. Then, you receive a shovel that makes your job easier and quicker. You now can dig 1 four foot hole in one hour. With this shovel, you could now dig 8 of those a day, but your job dictates you dig only one hole. There is where the laziness generates. Many people would dig that one hole and call it a day instead of getting a jump on things and dig a lot of holes or using that extra time to help other employees or finding other things to help the business they work for daily.
Anyway, we are totally getting off subject about what this thread is about, and that is a MMORPG that has a real depth in immersion that requires true challenge to your tenacity that is truly enjoyable from lvl 1 thru max and requires a certain amount of dedication to actually reach a point where you can truly call yourself veteran of warfare. I am not saying get rid of all the WoW versions that many people enjoy, but there should be a next gen version that caters to the players who really want to test their mettle against a real challenge through commitment.
Now you are attaching additional riders to the issue and not showing all the circumstances. Are you only paid to dig one hole per day? Are you paid by the hour or by the hole? What are you doing with the extra free time? Heck, is the boss cheating your on your paycheck each week?
Even if you really are lazy, it does not change the fact that using the shovel to dig the hole was the right thing to do.
Originally posted by Havok2all
Anyway, we are totally getting off subject about what this thread is about, and that is a MMORPG that has a real depth in immersion that requires true challenge to your tenacity that is truly enjoyable from lvl 1 thru max and requires a certain amount of dedication to actually reach a point where you can truly call yourself veteran of warfare. I am not saying get rid of all the WoW versions that many people enjoy, but there should be a next gen version that caters to the players who really want to test their mettle against a real challenge through commitment.
Now you are confusing me. First you start off by describing World of Warcraft and then you say that you do not want a game like that. So do you really want a game where players can 'test their mettle against a real challenge through commitment' or not? Because to me WoW matches that description.
It may shock you to know that much of being a programmer is routine grind. And I suspect exactly the same is true about every other one of the jobs you mentioned. Yes - they certainly have their challenging moments - and they take a cetain amount of skill. But they still have a lot of grind.
I work full as a professional programmer. And I stil take pride in how I contribute to my guild's raids in an MMO.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Now you are attaching additional riders to the issue and not showing all the circumstances. Are you only paid to dig one hole per day? Are you paid by the hour or by the hole? What are you doing with the extra free time? Heck, is the boss cheating your on your paycheck each week?
Even if you really are lazy, it does not change the fact that using the shovel to dig the hole was the right thing to do.
Originally posted by Havok2all
Anyway, we are totally getting off subject about what this thread is about, and that is a MMORPG that has a real depth in immersion that requires true challenge to your tenacity that is truly enjoyable from lvl 1 thru max and requires a certain amount of dedication to actually reach a point where you can truly call yourself veteran of warfare. I am not saying get rid of all the WoW versions that many people enjoy, but there should be a next gen version that caters to the players who really want to test their mettle against a real challenge through commitment.
Now you are confusing me. First you start off by describing World of Warcraft and then you say that you do not want a game like that. So do you really want a game where players can 'test their mettle against a real challenge through commitment' or not? Because to me WoW matches that description.
Actually, you are the one attaching additional riders. Regardless how deep and detailed I get about a hole digging job, my example still applies. Most people do only what they have to, not what they can.
My description of a challenging game doesn't describe WoW in any shape or form. You apparently find WoW to be challenging and fun, good for you. WoW may be all you need to fulfill your MMO needs to its fullest. Others like myself require a game that takes time to learn all the intricacies of what a class(s) can do, something that can't be accomplished in a couple months. Where player ingenuity finds a strategy to defeat a MoB, not figuring out the MoBs script just like everyone else.
I don't want a grindfest but I do want a more challenging game. Like make it so the mobs are actually tougher to fight. Maybe not spoon feed me and tell me exactly where to go to complete a quest.
PTMMORPG (Pre Teen Massive Multiplayer Online RPG), welcome to the nightmare that we have walked into.
You are kidding me. You want to devote years to a GAME. Life is too short to spend that much effort in ONE game. I guess if that is what you like, it is your perogative.
I highly doubt there is a big market catering to that kind of extreme devotion.
The trend is to give easier content to most people, and reserve some harder content (hard mode in WOW) for the hardcore raiders. If you think WOW hardmode is not of a challenge, i highly doubt there are enough of you to support any MMOs.
Developers should not cater to such a niche audience anyway. Remember these are now mass entertainment. You can't ignore 99% of your audience and cater to just 1%.
You are kidding me. You want to devote years to a GAME. Life is too short to spend that much effort in ONE game. I guess if that is what you like, it is your perogative.
I highly doubt there is a big market catering to that kind of extreme devotion.
The trend is to give easier content to most people, and reserve some harder content (hard mode in WOW) for the hardcore raiders. If you think WOW hardmode is not of a challenge, i highly doubt there are enough of you to support any MMOs.
Developers should not cater to such a niche audience anyway. Remember these are now mass entertainment. You can't ignore 99% of your audience and cater to just 1%.