Fleshing out your character. Anyone can have a rogue, or a warrior, or a mage or <insert class here>. But having what TYPE of <insert class here> is it? That's where grind comes into play. Max level, max stat, completed all quests, completed X% of the game... list goes on and on.
It isn't necessary for a single player rpg, but if you want to differentiate yourself from others, or brag, or compete, or attain something specific... chances are you are going to grind it to get it.
If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs. It's like playing Halo and saying "I don't like shooting".
Grinding is a time honoured RPG tradition. Why, I was just playing Final Fantasy VII on my PSP and I spend 3 hours grinding outside Wutai in order to level up my materia.
Grinding in an RPG isn't exactly the same as grinding in an MMO. It's a lot easier in an RPG, imo.
***EDIT*** Slavery used to be an American honoured tradition also.
So paying to Grind is like Slavery .... um ok.
If you dont want to grind no one is forcing you to, play a console game and get everything given to you. A MMO isnt worth playing if you dont have to put time into it.
Ziva- If you don't have to do it, then how is the game built around doing it? You never must grind. It's your choice, but you don't have to. Because the game itself provides it. The game is designed to have an artificial "end" that is designed to keep you on the "hook" to continue playing until there is new content thus furthering your game time played and increasing their profits. It's why it is there. Period. Game developers do not jsut toss in super elite hard to kill bosses like they do sidequests. They put way more time and resources and thought into the scenario to make it difficult. In order to beat it, you generally have to be at the top of your game. Meaning... levels, gear and skill. In order to achieve those, you grind. Now don't get me wrong, I don't want to argue semantics so I'm going to use a disclaimer and say YOU DON'T HAVE TO SEE END GAME IN ORDER TO- A)Have fun. B)Do just what other people say you have to do. You can take 2x, 10, even 1309486938302x as long to get to the same point. Yes. Technically. But although you do have free will to do that, it isn't how the game was designed. So while you can choose to play the game how you want, the point of ANY game is to see the end, and in order to do that you grind in order to achieve it, or you "cheat" and watch someone else do it who did grind to get there =P.
I have obtained everything I desired in games without grinding. Did other players have it first? Of course, but I bet I had more fun getting there. Do I max out characters? yup, am I the first? Nope. But from the looks of these forums about how much everyone hates grinds, it seems like I have much more fun getting maxed out than many other players. I cannot speak for you personally, or your personal playstyle. Not everyone can complete every game they play. Nothing wrong with it. Some are even happy with mediocre items, gear, etc because they had fun getting them. No problem with that either. Not saying what you do is wrong. Although I'm curious as to what game and how you maxed out your char without grinding...I'm sure something is missing, or you did grind but choose to use a different term for it /shrug.
I have memories of all night missions where I'd level up, and not even realize it. There's been times, as I'm sure others have had, where I'd click on my stats and realized they'd gone up, or that I had more points to use. All night missions? I'm unsure what that means. If you mean quests, especially quests that aren't a main storyline.. chances are that was grinding =P.
Why? Because I don't grind. I just play. So do people who grind . That's all it is. Just playing. Redoing some content, or doing optional content because of either a lack of options (not enough members, maybe a needed ingredient that randomly drops off a mob, or shortage of coinage). Doing something new doesn't always mean you aren't grinding. Maybe by the true dictionary, but we aren't being technical or literal I hope. I'm using gaming terminologies. Like "I need to grind out these last reports for my boss" or "Gotta grind out my last few pages of homework before I can do that".
In short I think too many people bristle when you use the words "must" or even "grind". There are tons of things you do everyday that could be seen as grinding, and it shows in a lot of posts that I see when people use "must" or "have to" like I'm saying if you don't NCSoft is going to put a gun to your head until you do. This is not true. And while it might be MY definition of "grind" that seems off... please keep in mind that it is over 10 years of mmo gaming and keeping up with terminologies that got me there lol.
+100 Kudos point for having the most logical and best answers! Well done. I am happy to see that not all mmorpg.com users are retards. That there are some brains amongst all these trolls.
If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs. It's like playing Halo and saying "I don't like shooting".
Grinding is a time honoured RPG tradition. Why, I was just playing Final Fantasy VII on my PSP and I spend 3 hours grinding outside Wutai in order to level up my materia.
Are you insane?
Grinding has nothing to do with RPG's. It's something people started doing in the first batch of MMO's to progress their skills. In early MMO's (UO) there wasn't a great deal of "content" as in quest and junk. They were designed as virtual worlds. You were "free" to play how you wanted BUT it left the issue of progress sorta vague
The EQ came along and lineared the shit out of them. Basically putting a set of blinders on the player and shouting "go" and everyone charged for the finish line. And at the end of that race you were rewarded with this new thing SOE invented called a "raid". A very limited and very easy for devs to create & manage mechanic which players fell for hook line and sinker...
Do you want to know why MMO's are in the state they are in? You can track it to the success of EQ over UO as WoW devs have plainly said over and over "they took the best of EQ..."...and what happened after that? Everyone copied WoW.
So no, grind has nothing to do with RPG's. Those are about playing a "role" in a story. The original idea behind MMO's was that you were going to be able to play that "role" in a persistant virtual world (video game rather then tabletop) with your friends and lots of other people and play whatever "story" you wanted to all the game was going to do was provide the environment and the ruleset.
Go buy a pen and paper RPG, gather up a group of players then have them go out and "kill 10 rats" then have them do it again and see how well your game goes...it will suck because MMO lost sight of what RPG's are...Adventures & story, not progression chores.
RPGs are about grinding? That is one of the most dense comments I've ever read. RPGs are abouts stories. MMOs are not. They are indeed about grinding. Don't insult great RPGs by comparing them to these horribly flawed MMOs(leveling for the sake of leveling).
Yes, in some RPGs you are given the option to grind, in case your tactics aren't up to par you can just use brute force. Most recent RPGs there has been a finite number of mobs.
NWN, NWN2, Fallout 3, Oblivion are all about stories. Not grinding to gain levels. If you play to grind levels in those games I don't consider you an RPG player. I guess you just like torture.
LOL. You're trying to compare a carbuerator to fuel injection with that post Torak. Tabletop RPGs aren't about grinding true enough. They aren't automated either.
UO while didn't have a grind, wasn't ABLE to have a grind so people created hacks to be any model in game. Drizzt, a skeleton, or a dragon. Why? They got bored too quick! Wasn't anything else to do. Except start over as a diff class....
The only good reference to a rpg that is worth playing if you compare wow or eq with it, is neverwinter nights, because of MODs to allow you to create your own world and define rules for it that weren't the norm.
Never played NWN2 but if I'm correct... they had all sorts pf special dual classes right? That right there is almost begging to be considered a grind. I remember hearing about specific builds....
Oblivion had grinds for stats not levels. Fallout I never played so dunno.
While most people can get away saying you don't need to grind in a rpg... if that rpg has a grind in it... people are going to do it. Period.
If u guys are bashing on this game for grinding, you guys are fucking stupid, this game has very little grinding at all, its very easy to lvl, but not too easy... you have no idea about a grinding game unless you have played Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, that is the worst grinding of any game i have ever played, Aion has done very well to make sure that there is no boring grinding in this game.. the storyline is fun, and very easy to follow, i do wish they had more flying areas, but either way, THIS IS NOT A GAME WHERE U GRIND!!!
LOL. You're trying to compare a carbuerator to fuel injection with that post Torak. Tabletop RPGs aren't about grinding true enough. They aren't automated either. UO while didn't have a grind, wasn't ABLE to have a grind so people created hacks to be any model in game. Drizzt, a skeleton, or a dragon. Why? They got bored too quick! Wasn't anything else to do. Except start over as a diff class.... The only good reference to a rpg that is worth playing if you compare wow or eq with it, is neverwinter nights, because of MODs to allow you to create your own world and define rules for it that weren't the norm. Never played NWN2 but if I'm correct... they had all sorts pf special dual classes right? That right there is almost begging to be considered a grind. I remember hearing about specific builds.... Oblivion had grinds for stats not levels. Fallout I never played so dunno. While most people can get away saying you don't need to grind in a rpg... if that rpg has a grind in it... people are going to do it. Period.
Well he didn't specify what RPG he was referring too... It's the acceptance of mindless grind that got MMO's where they are today although they are changing finally although slowly.
Well yeah in UO that was 1000% true but that wasn't the point I was trying to illustrate. The point was that the development route follow SOE's success and built on that rather then UO. Or rather Linear on rails vs Sandbox. Had Sandbox tpe been given the chance to evolve who knows what might have came? We know that the original 'Lord of the Rings" and "Warhammer" were going to be sandboxes but they scrapped them and redid them as Linear instead. You see where that went. LotR ended up WoW for adults and Warhammer was just total failure because they copied just about everything but the open party PQ system (which is actually a pretty cool idea)
I'm not sure where you are going with the NWN comparison but I guess you could "grind" if you were statisfied with base gameplay and munching numbers. But you can Mod your guy anyway you want without "grinding" with the toolset. You want to be level 20, you just make him level 20. You don't actually grind with the Mods.
Again, Oblivion is about the story, if you want to grind, go for it but whats the point in a single player game? With Mods again, you can just make you guy whatever level you want.
Apples and oranges.
There are always going to be munchkins in any game genre but that doesn't mean you accept the lower standard of gameplay.
I guess if someone is satisfied with standing in a field killing the same mob over and over again, more power to them, we have a bizillion games that allow you to do that...but thats not what RPG's are about and that has been lost in MMO's.
Grinding is not just killing though. That's the point I've been making. People have been trying to say "their fav rpg" is free from the "grind disease" which it isn't. You can always CHOOSE to grind, in just about ANY game. But that's not the point. Since MOST people choose to be the best they can be, it's MOST people who shouldn't play rpg if they don't like grinding. Because grinding is used to PERFECT your toon, not just be happy with something mediocre, which is what the toon is, if you don't grind (again, isn't necessarily a BAD thing).
Whether or not you are MOST is up to you to decide.
This is just a poor understanding of RPG's ...or poorly developed game, if as a player you will have to grind for anything at all..
There is alot o good RPG's where you do not have to make any "mundane tasks" ea kill 100 boars or repeat a quest 1000 times, or just plainly kill foes for the xp because "you have to".
Mostly grinding belongs to the MMORPG genre to lenghten the gameplay time because of monthly subscriptions..
So basically you are SOO wrong..
That said, many players still enjoy this type of gameplay
Not disagreeing with you... but read the full thread.
Most everyone has said the OP means "MMO" and not "RPG"....
No I didn't. I meant RPG.
Some of the greatest single player RPGs have heavy grinding.
Final Fantasy Series, Lunar Series, Xenogears, Xenosaga series, Chronotrigger, ChronoCross, Valkyria Chronicles, Eternal Sonata...
All have heavy amounts of grind that made them great.
If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs.
I am curious if u have ever played any of the Western RPGs because, as many people have pointed out, they generaly dont have any mandatory grind in them (at least the good ones). I haven't played any of the games that u have listed, so i cant really compare the quality of Asian VS Western RPG, but in my experience any Western RPGs that have grind in them are not very good.
In my opinion a RPG is supposed to be a giant puzzle that you try to unravel and leveling should only serve as means to change the scenery and introduce new elements.
An example of RPG that requires absolutely no grind is Fallout 1 and Fallout 2. Both are considered to be contenders for the "greatest RPGs ever made" title. Each game can be beaten under 10 minutes by a person who mastered the game, however there is enough content to keep u going and discovering new things for weeks, months even.
Yup. I've played the Elder Scrolls games, including Oblivion. In that game, I grinded lockpicking for a few hours in order to master the stealth skill and grinded agility skill points by bunnyhopping around the main city for a few hours. I also grinded sneak skill by auto following NPCs for a few hours while stealthed.
Also have played the Knights of the Old Republic games, where I spent many hours grinding for the best lightsaber crystals and grinding levels for skillpoints, so I could run the Jedi Gauntlet at the end of the game that you need to do in order to finish the game.
OP, those games aren't grinds, you're making them grinds. You can increase your skill points in Oblivion by you know, actually playing the game rather than doing the same thing over and over. Just recently I played KOTOR again, I got levels by doing missions and playing the game. Not once did I "grind" mobs to gain levels. If you view all games this way, you're gonna call of them a grind.
You're assuming "grinding" just means levels. Grinding is doing something repetitious in order to achieve something. Whether it is boring, or fun is a moot point. Whether it is NEEDED is a moot point. Whether you do it or not is a moot point. The point is the games have it.
You're assuming "grinding" just means levels. Grinding is doing something repetitious in order to achieve something. Whether it is boring, or fun is a moot point. Whether it is NEEDED is a moot point. Whether you do it or not is a moot point. The point is the games have it.
Isn't that the whole point of this thread? OP claiming it IS needed and anyone having a problem with it should just go away.
That's the way it started yes. But when people choose to rely on a certain few rpg titles just to try to prove a literal point, it changes the direction of the thread.
If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs. It's like playing Halo and saying "I don't like shooting".
Grinding is a time honoured RPG tradition. Why, I was just playing Final Fantasy VII on my PSP and I spend 3 hours grinding outside Wutai in order to level up my materia.
That's the way it started yes. But when people choose to rely on a certain few rpg titles just to try to prove a literal point, it changes the direction of the thread. Keep up or sit down.
Not at all, the thread is still as much about grinding and it's significance as it was on the first page. Only thing that is changing is your defenition of grind whenever you can't make your point.
You're assuming "grinding" just means levels. Grinding is doing something repetitious in order to achieve something. Whether it is boring, or fun is a moot point. Whether it is NEEDED is a moot point. Whether you do it or not is a moot point. The point is the games have it.
Ive pretty much kept up with this thread and had a few questions and or comments. You mention previously about being afraid of the word "grind". I dunno if i'd say I'm afraid of it but I'm just concerned of when my fun starts. As you mentioned earlier a lot of Aion fans aren't just playing to say "o i beat it" but to see when the game begins... i was too lazy to quote it exactly from you (sorry if it is misworded).
I mean i'll still do it, but I just find most of the leveling to be a solo grindfest. Oh and to anyone else I admit Aion may potientially have a lot of level grind, I may not like it but i'll still do it in order to get to better stuff that suits me better. Another thing to note it is only a grind to me because I don't like what im doing, the solo lvling. I enjoy many other aspects.
Also you mention grinding is doing something repetitious in order to achieve something. I'm curious to what you would think of DAOC's end game pvp then. In DAOC i'd pvp at end game for fun and as a result get realm points which i can use to purchase abilities to make myself stronger. I mean you could argue getting the top rank was a "grind" , but i dunno. The way I played was I just enjoyed killing people and having good fights. Getting points etc and making myself stronger was a fun incentive. Is achieving fun part of a grind?
I guess a comparision would be do you consider in COD4 lvling to 55 a grind? If so we may just have a different definition since I usually equate grind to a negative connotation.
Oh and not to say daoc doesn't have any grind... it does, it was just a piece of cake if you had friends.
Just for kicks, what WoW Server/Guild were you in Soupism? I was on Archimonde US / Veritas Invictus during TBC.
SonofSeth, My definition of grind hasn't changed, just repeated in many ways over 15mil pages since people don't seem to get it, and if they do, someone else takes their place.
Tenken, The way you ask is to say a solid only one answer. Grinding just isn't that. Grinding your prestige on COD4 can be considered Grinding if you are doing it as a goal. For instance... If I'm level 23 on 4th prestige and I want to make 30th level before I sleep... I'm not really concerned about my fun at the point (yes I'll still have fun, but it's second priority to my level ie- more shipment maps!) but more concerned about getting my goal attained.
Does that mean whenever I load COD4 I feel that way? Not at all. Does that mean whenever I play COD4 I even CARE about my Prestige? Not at all. Sometimes I want to get a specific attachment on a certain gun or maybe work for a golden gun. Does that mean I'm grinding? Yes. If I like using a dragunov and want the golden version, I will grind out the headshots and kills on the barret and that would be grinding. Like I said it isn't about fun or lack of, it's how you prioritize it.
When you said about end game pvp and getting points... are you farming those points as a specific goal, or doing it to doing it? This comes down to a more complex and delicate definition because its specific, not generalized, so I'm not sure how to expand my answer (seems a loaded question). I guess you'll have to answer as to if you feel its a grind or not because you are farming points.
And I was on Rexxar server (US) I'll let you guess the guild.
Like I said it isn't about fun or lack of, it's how you prioritize it. I think this sums up very well what you've been talking about with grinding. When you said about end game pvp and getting points... are you farming those points as a specific goal, or doing it to doing it? This comes down to a more complex and delicate definition because its specific, not generalized, so I'm not sure how to expand my answer (seems a loaded question). I guess you'll have to answer as to if you feel its a grind or not because you are farming points. This would be more of the doing it to to doing it. It's similiar to the COD4 example. Like you said, how you prioritize it is key. And I was on Rexxar server (US) I'll let you guess the guild. Were you guys using bosskillers? My guess would be Unbreakable?
We used bosskillers on TBC. The guild is top on its server and if I remember (haven't played in almost a year now) is under 100th on Wowjutsu (I think in the 60s maybe even better).
The guild is farming Wrath right now in their progression.
i pretty much only read the first post so dont bitch if im lost :P
anyway. you talk like grinding is ALL there is to a mmo. i can hate grinding but love EVERY other aspect of a mmo but if i dislike one thing mmo's arent for me? retarded statement. i love PvP in mmo's but i dislike grinding. meaning i shouldnt be playing mmo's? to me grinding is more a "Necessary Evil". something i have to do to enjoy the game at max level. if i could skip it i would :P
and dont pull the "play a fps game if all you want is fighting" crap. we all know the combat in fps games and mmo's are different and i happen to prefer the combat im mmo's. simple as that
I agree every MMO/RPG is a grind and people play them and complain. I would like someone to name one MMO that isn't a grind.
Warhammer Online.
Oh common man. I know what you're trying to get at... but im pretty sure it's been covered in this thread. Other wise I can give you a ton of other reasons why it was grindy.
Oh and to Soupism, i guess you guys didn't play a lot in TBC?
Comments
It has nothing to do about the grind and everything to do about whether or not you're having fun along the way.
Not sure if this question has been asked before but I'll reinforce it anyway... What has grind got to do with roll playing?
Fleshing out your character. Anyone can have a rogue, or a warrior, or a mage or <insert class here>. But having what TYPE of <insert class here> is it? That's where grind comes into play. Max level, max stat, completed all quests, completed X% of the game... list goes on and on.
It isn't necessary for a single player rpg, but if you want to differentiate yourself from others, or brag, or compete, or attain something specific... chances are you are going to grind it to get it.
Grinding in an RPG isn't exactly the same as grinding in an MMO. It's a lot easier in an RPG, imo.
***EDIT*** Slavery used to be an American honoured tradition also.
So paying to Grind is like Slavery .... um ok.
If you dont want to grind no one is forcing you to, play a console game and get everything given to you. A MMO isnt worth playing if you dont have to put time into it.
It doesn't have anything really to do with roleplaying but it ties in with RPGs, specifically CRPGs and console RPGs.
"lolwut?"
Exactly.
The video game RPG is defined by the presence of character advancement and not by the presence of storytelling or roleplaying.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
+100 Kudos point for having the most logical and best answers! Well done. I am happy to see that not all mmorpg.com users are retards. That there are some brains amongst all these trolls.
Are you insane?
Grinding has nothing to do with RPG's. It's something people started doing in the first batch of MMO's to progress their skills. In early MMO's (UO) there wasn't a great deal of "content" as in quest and junk. They were designed as virtual worlds. You were "free" to play how you wanted BUT it left the issue of progress sorta vague
The EQ came along and lineared the shit out of them. Basically putting a set of blinders on the player and shouting "go" and everyone charged for the finish line. And at the end of that race you were rewarded with this new thing SOE invented called a "raid". A very limited and very easy for devs to create & manage mechanic which players fell for hook line and sinker...
Do you want to know why MMO's are in the state they are in? You can track it to the success of EQ over UO as WoW devs have plainly said over and over "they took the best of EQ..."...and what happened after that? Everyone copied WoW.
So no, grind has nothing to do with RPG's. Those are about playing a "role" in a story. The original idea behind MMO's was that you were going to be able to play that "role" in a persistant virtual world (video game rather then tabletop) with your friends and lots of other people and play whatever "story" you wanted to all the game was going to do was provide the environment and the ruleset.
Go buy a pen and paper RPG, gather up a group of players then have them go out and "kill 10 rats" then have them do it again and see how well your game goes...it will suck because MMO lost sight of what RPG's are...Adventures & story, not progression chores.
RPGs are about grinding? That is one of the most dense comments I've ever read. RPGs are abouts stories. MMOs are not. They are indeed about grinding. Don't insult great RPGs by comparing them to these horribly flawed MMOs(leveling for the sake of leveling).
Yes, in some RPGs you are given the option to grind, in case your tactics aren't up to par you can just use brute force. Most recent RPGs there has been a finite number of mobs.
NWN, NWN2, Fallout 3, Oblivion are all about stories. Not grinding to gain levels. If you play to grind levels in those games I don't consider you an RPG player. I guess you just like torture.
LOL. You're trying to compare a carbuerator to fuel injection with that post Torak. Tabletop RPGs aren't about grinding true enough. They aren't automated either.
UO while didn't have a grind, wasn't ABLE to have a grind so people created hacks to be any model in game. Drizzt, a skeleton, or a dragon. Why? They got bored too quick! Wasn't anything else to do. Except start over as a diff class....
The only good reference to a rpg that is worth playing if you compare wow or eq with it, is neverwinter nights, because of MODs to allow you to create your own world and define rules for it that weren't the norm.
Never played NWN2 but if I'm correct... they had all sorts pf special dual classes right? That right there is almost begging to be considered a grind. I remember hearing about specific builds....
Oblivion had grinds for stats not levels. Fallout I never played so dunno.
While most people can get away saying you don't need to grind in a rpg... if that rpg has a grind in it... people are going to do it. Period.
If u guys are bashing on this game for grinding, you guys are fucking stupid, this game has very little grinding at all, its very easy to lvl, but not too easy... you have no idea about a grinding game unless you have played Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, that is the worst grinding of any game i have ever played, Aion has done very well to make sure that there is no boring grinding in this game.. the storyline is fun, and very easy to follow, i do wish they had more flying areas, but either way, THIS IS NOT A GAME WHERE U GRIND!!!
Well he didn't specify what RPG he was referring too...
It's the acceptance of mindless grind that got MMO's where they are today although they are changing finally although slowly.
Well yeah in UO that was 1000% true but that wasn't the point I was trying to illustrate. The point was that the development route follow SOE's success and built on that rather then UO. Or rather Linear on rails vs Sandbox. Had Sandbox tpe been given the chance to evolve who knows what might have came? We know that the original 'Lord of the Rings" and "Warhammer" were going to be sandboxes but they scrapped them and redid them as Linear instead. You see where that went. LotR ended up WoW for adults and Warhammer was just total failure because they copied just about everything but the open party PQ system (which is actually a pretty cool idea)
I'm not sure where you are going with the NWN comparison but I guess you could "grind" if you were statisfied with base gameplay and munching numbers. But you can Mod your guy anyway you want without "grinding" with the toolset. You want to be level 20, you just make him level 20. You don't actually grind with the Mods.
Again, Oblivion is about the story, if you want to grind, go for it but whats the point in a single player game? With Mods again, you can just make you guy whatever level you want.
Apples and oranges.
There are always going to be munchkins in any game genre but that doesn't mean you accept the lower standard of gameplay.
I guess if someone is satisfied with standing in a field killing the same mob over and over again, more power to them, we have a bizillion games that allow you to do that...but thats not what RPG's are about and that has been lost in MMO's.
Grinding is not just killing though. That's the point I've been making. People have been trying to say "their fav rpg" is free from the "grind disease" which it isn't. You can always CHOOSE to grind, in just about ANY game. But that's not the point. Since MOST people choose to be the best they can be, it's MOST people who shouldn't play rpg if they don't like grinding. Because grinding is used to PERFECT your toon, not just be happy with something mediocre, which is what the toon is, if you don't grind (again, isn't necessarily a BAD thing).
Whether or not you are MOST is up to you to decide.
Not disagreeing with you... but read the full thread.
Most everyone has said the OP means "MMO" and not "RPG"....
No I didn't. I meant RPG.
Some of the greatest single player RPGs have heavy grinding.
Final Fantasy Series, Lunar Series, Xenogears, Xenosaga series, Chronotrigger, ChronoCross, Valkyria Chronicles, Eternal Sonata...
All have heavy amounts of grind that made them great.
If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs.
I am curious if u have ever played any of the Western RPGs because, as many people have pointed out, they generaly dont have any mandatory grind in them (at least the good ones). I haven't played any of the games that u have listed, so i cant really compare the quality of Asian VS Western RPG, but in my experience any Western RPGs that have grind in them are not very good.
In my opinion a RPG is supposed to be a giant puzzle that you try to unravel and leveling should only serve as means to change the scenery and introduce new elements.
An example of RPG that requires absolutely no grind is Fallout 1 and Fallout 2. Both are considered to be contenders for the "greatest RPGs ever made" title. Each game can be beaten under 10 minutes by a person who mastered the game, however there is enough content to keep u going and discovering new things for weeks, months even.
Yup. I've played the Elder Scrolls games, including Oblivion. In that game, I grinded lockpicking for a few hours in order to master the stealth skill and grinded agility skill points by bunnyhopping around the main city for a few hours. I also grinded sneak skill by auto following NPCs for a few hours while stealthed.
Also have played the Knights of the Old Republic games, where I spent many hours grinding for the best lightsaber crystals and grinding levels for skillpoints, so I could run the Jedi Gauntlet at the end of the game that you need to do in order to finish the game.
OP, those games aren't grinds, you're making them grinds. You can increase your skill points in Oblivion by you know, actually playing the game rather than doing the same thing over and over. Just recently I played KOTOR again, I got levels by doing missions and playing the game. Not once did I "grind" mobs to gain levels. If you view all games this way, you're gonna call of them a grind.
You're assuming "grinding" just means levels. Grinding is doing something repetitious in order to achieve something. Whether it is boring, or fun is a moot point. Whether it is NEEDED is a moot point. Whether you do it or not is a moot point. The point is the games have it.
Isn't that the whole point of this thread? OP claiming it IS needed and anyone having a problem with it should just go away.
You're a little lost aren't you?
That's the way it started yes. But when people choose to rely on a certain few rpg titles just to try to prove a literal point, it changes the direction of the thread.
Keep up or sit down.
I notice you haven't posted much.
Let's keep it that way.
Not at all, the thread is still as much about grinding and it's significance as it was on the first page. Only thing that is changing is your defenition of grind whenever you can't make your point.
Ive pretty much kept up with this thread and had a few questions and or comments. You mention previously about being afraid of the word "grind". I dunno if i'd say I'm afraid of it but I'm just concerned of when my fun starts. As you mentioned earlier a lot of Aion fans aren't just playing to say "o i beat it" but to see when the game begins... i was too lazy to quote it exactly from you (sorry if it is misworded).
I mean i'll still do it, but I just find most of the leveling to be a solo grindfest. Oh and to anyone else I admit Aion may potientially have a lot of level grind, I may not like it but i'll still do it in order to get to better stuff that suits me better. Another thing to note it is only a grind to me because I don't like what im doing, the solo lvling. I enjoy many other aspects.
Also you mention grinding is doing something repetitious in order to achieve something. I'm curious to what you would think of DAOC's end game pvp then. In DAOC i'd pvp at end game for fun and as a result get realm points which i can use to purchase abilities to make myself stronger. I mean you could argue getting the top rank was a "grind" , but i dunno. The way I played was I just enjoyed killing people and having good fights. Getting points etc and making myself stronger was a fun incentive. Is achieving fun part of a grind?
I guess a comparision would be do you consider in COD4 lvling to 55 a grind? If so we may just have a different definition since I usually equate grind to a negative connotation.
Oh and not to say daoc doesn't have any grind... it does, it was just a piece of cake if you had friends.
Just for kicks, what WoW Server/Guild were you in Soupism? I was on Archimonde US / Veritas Invictus during TBC.
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SonofSeth, My definition of grind hasn't changed, just repeated in many ways over 15mil pages since people don't seem to get it, and if they do, someone else takes their place.
Tenken, The way you ask is to say a solid only one answer. Grinding just isn't that. Grinding your prestige on COD4 can be considered Grinding if you are doing it as a goal. For instance... If I'm level 23 on 4th prestige and I want to make 30th level before I sleep... I'm not really concerned about my fun at the point (yes I'll still have fun, but it's second priority to my level ie- more shipment maps!) but more concerned about getting my goal attained.
Does that mean whenever I load COD4 I feel that way? Not at all. Does that mean whenever I play COD4 I even CARE about my Prestige? Not at all. Sometimes I want to get a specific attachment on a certain gun or maybe work for a golden gun. Does that mean I'm grinding? Yes. If I like using a dragunov and want the golden version, I will grind out the headshots and kills on the barret and that would be grinding. Like I said it isn't about fun or lack of, it's how you prioritize it.
When you said about end game pvp and getting points... are you farming those points as a specific goal, or doing it to doing it? This comes down to a more complex and delicate definition because its specific, not generalized, so I'm not sure how to expand my answer (seems a loaded question). I guess you'll have to answer as to if you feel its a grind or not because you are farming points.
And I was on Rexxar server (US) I'll let you guess the guild.
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We used bosskillers on TBC. The guild is top on its server and if I remember (haven't played in almost a year now) is under 100th on Wowjutsu (I think in the 60s maybe even better).
The guild is farming Wrath right now in their progression.
Warhammer Online.
i pretty much only read the first post so dont bitch if im lost :P
anyway. you talk like grinding is ALL there is to a mmo. i can hate grinding but love EVERY other aspect of a mmo but if i dislike one thing mmo's arent for me? retarded statement. i love PvP in mmo's but i dislike grinding. meaning i shouldnt be playing mmo's? to me grinding is more a "Necessary Evil". something i have to do to enjoy the game at max level. if i could skip it i would :P
and dont pull the "play a fps game if all you want is fighting" crap. we all know the combat in fps games and mmo's are different and i happen to prefer the combat im mmo's. simple as that
Warhammer Online.
Oh common man. I know what you're trying to get at... but im pretty sure it's been covered in this thread. Other wise I can give you a ton of other reasons why it was grindy.
Oh and to Soupism, i guess you guys didn't play a lot in TBC?
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