Ahh, Al, I didn't say AIon was completely next-gen though, I merely stated that its going to be one of the competitors that SE will need to worry about while finishing the devlopment of FFXIV. Also keep in mind since you're playing the closed beta of Aion, the graphics are miles from what they will be like when the game launches; I've seen the screenshots from it, and even in their current state they are years ahead of WoW on maximum settings.
I agree with water and elevation being natural barriers, though its been proven one can get across them by many hackers, even without swimming/jumping/flying. In many cases zones were deigned around it in FFXI, though people easily found ways around it, such as Raising people through/around walls. One should also keep in mind the most successful games actually utilize jumping and swimming, of course. In many cases, when people discovered hidden areas such as the tiny island Varian Wrynn was on (which was actually MEANT to be found) the publicity generated brought in more players.
Back to the topic on hand though..The game's launching in 2010; it shouldn't seek to restrict the immersion of its players, nor should it try to cut corners with design; SE has a reputation for great gameplay, and with the many things a PS3 can do, I believe they'll be able to make at least one of the many controller buttons jump, for the people who don't feel like buying a keyboard and lack a pc. Heck, if F2P games such as Runes of Magic, Perfect World, and Flyff can do it, I'd pretty much assume that SE will put in, at bare minimum, jumping and swimming. They've been working on this game since the release of XI, remember?
oh and here's a CB screenshot from Aion..not sure how recent it is, though.
How the hell did a thread like this reach 4 pages? Are we arguing about the validity of jumping in MMOs now? Let's smoke a pipe and drink tea while we're at it while reclining near a toasty fire. Well, might as well throw my 2 cents in. Jumping in order to navigate obstacles is necessary, but jumping because you think you're a bunny - or in PvP, especially - is annyoing and unrealistic. Enter: Mantle system from Call of Duty: World at War. You go up to an object, you press space, you effectively "jump" over that object. Well, you really swing your legs over it. But it's much more realistic.
/shrug
This is a forum - discussion is theoretically what they're for. What we say here will most likely have no effect at all on what the design team actually does, this game is far, far from release and we have almost no information about it, so you could say that any FFXIV thread is basically pointless, from that perspective.
Regarding a system where certain obstacles are scalable by design, i've already said that's probably a reasonable idea, but it would entail an extra degree of attention to the environment that, given past experience, this design team may not want to pay. It comes down to what sort of experience they're trying to give us; they've already stated that combat in FFXIV will be more 'action' oriented, but what exactly does that mean? If it means introducing more action RPG elements, such terrain/motion/position-based benefits in combat, then jumping may indeed be in the future for this game, regardless of what we all want.
Hehe well I agree. I'm just saying that you'd expect this kind of thread to be short.
"Can you jump in FFXIV?"
"Yes, no, we don't know, you're a noob"... couple of responses. But then it turns into a 4-page long discussion. Interesting, to say the least.
It's like asking, "Does my car get good MPG?" and then having a huge discussion about whether Global Warming exists or not. They're related, but it isn't really relevant to the guy's question.
As for your second paragraph, I agree. It would take more attention to the environment, sort of like if SW:TOR turned their cover system into something from the Relic RTS games (where certain types of obstacles provided either no cover, light cover, or heavy cover). Instead, Bioware will have pre-programmed spots where the character can take cover, instead of being able to take cover anywhere but having the amount of cover limited to what it's hiding behind. Jumping will most likely be included, for combat and everything else, because it's an easier but slightly ridiculous (if overused) type of motion to code.
Ahh, Al, I didn't say AIon was completely next-gen though, I merely stated that its going to be one of the competitors that SE will need to worry about while finishing the devlopment of FFXIV. Also keep in mind since you're playing the closed beta of Aion, the graphics are miles from what they will be like when the game launches; I've seen the screenshots from it, and even in their current state they are years ahead of WoW on maximum settings. I agree with water and elevation being natural barriers, though its been proven one can get across them by many hackers, even without swimming/jumping/flying. In many cases zones were deigned around it in FFXI, though people easily found ways around it, such as Raising people through/around walls. One should also keep in mind the most successful games actually utilize jumping and swimming, of course. In many cases, when people discovered hidden areas such as the tiny island Varian Wrynn was on (which was actually MEANT to be found) the publicity generated brought in more players. Back to the topic on hand though..The game's launching in 2010; it shouldn't seek to restrict the immersion of its players, nor should it try to cut corners with design; SE has a reputation for great gameplay, and with the many things a PS3 can do, I believe they'll be able to make at least one of the many controller buttons jump, for the people who don't feel like buying a keyboard and lack a pc. Heck, if F2P games such as Runes of Magic, Perfect World, and Flyff can do it, I'd pretty much assume that SE will put in, at bare minimum, jumping and swimming. They've been working on this game since the release of XI, remember?
Sorry; i assumed a bit there when you pulled the 'next generation' card. That descriptor is flame-bait of the worst kind. Anyhow, the version of Aion used in the CB is 1.02, which is the version currently used on the Chinese servers. For the most part, the graphics will not improve much when it comes out in NA at version 1.5. Aion's custom character graphics are excellent, but are often hidden by armor - and why can't any MMO developer ever come up with hats that don't completely override the character model's hair style?
Its environment graphics (and the objects underneat them), on the other hand, could frankly use a little work. The textures are not really high detail when examined up close. Outside of the Abyss there are invisible walls all over the place in the free-fly areas, and structures in particular are often not the same 'shape' as the graphic overlaid upon them, so when you land on the wall of a fortress you often find yourself standing on thin air a few feet above the bricks.
I am ambivalent about jumping and swimming with regard to FFXI, as i had no problem enjoying them game without them. If we are to consider FFXIV a truly 'new game,' however... if implemented well, either one could offer a lot of depth of gameplay. Not doing a half-@$$sed job of it is the key. If they introduce jump puzzles, or zones where things you need to get to are placed at high elevation or across bodies of water, or if they add positional bonuses (for high ground or flanking, for instance), these things could enhance the game experience. If not... if they don't plan on doing it well, it might be best not to try at all, and just stick with what they know.
Runes of Magic, Perfect World and Flyff are probably not good examples to use when making the case of, 'Well, these games do it, so why can't FFXIV?' From what little we've seen, Squeenix seems to be trying to use extremely high-quality graphics for FFXIV, which will place very difinite time, money and labor constraints on what they can accomplish. They may not want to spend time designing underwater scenery that few players will ever see, or mapping each bush in the landscape so that they can decide whether or not a player can jump over it.
Hehe well I agree. I'm just saying that you'd expect this kind of thread to be short.
"Can you jump in FFXIV?"
"Yes, no, we don't know, you're a noob"... couple of responses. But then it turns into a 4-page long discussion. Interesting, to say the least.
It's like asking, "Does my car get good MPG?" and then having a huge discussion about whether Global Warming exists or not. They're related, but it isn't really relevant to the guy's question.
As for your second paragraph, I agree. It would take more attention to the environment, sort of like if SW:TOR turned their cover system into something from the Relic RTS games (where certain types of obstacles provided either no cover, light cover, or heavy cover). Instead, Bioware will have pre-programmed spots where the character can take cover, instead of being able to take cover anywhere but having the amount of cover limited to what it's hiding behind. Jumping will most likely be included, for combat and everything else, because it's an easier but slightly ridiculous (if overused) type of motion to code.
The shift in topic was intentional (at least on my part); where's the fun in short threads where nothing intelligent or entertaining is actually said? :P
Your mention of Bioware's cover system has remided me of the recently departed: Tabula Rasa. Tabula Rasa had a complete, percentage-based cover system, where every object in the game hobbled your enemy with a certain percentage of 'miss chance' if you were hiding behind it, and this chance varied depending upon how well you were hiding behind it (standing, crouching, etc.). Tabula Rasa did this because the main mode of combat for every character was ranged attack, but it shows that innovation is possible, and that it can actually work, but it will not necessarily guarantee a game's success.
I suppose we can only hope that Squeenix will lavish their environments with such attention to detail that any innovations they introduce in FFXIV's combat feel natural and fun.
Ahh, Al, I didn't say AIon was completely next-gen though, I merely stated that its going to be one of the competitors that SE will need to worry about while finishing the devlopment of FFXIV.
Just a thought on this bit...
I don't think FFXIV is necessarily going to have "competition" like other MMOs in the genre might - at least not in the same way. To be sure, Aion already has a large player base - ~4 million in the Eastern market, the last time I heard (though that could have been off). I don't know how well it'll fare in the Western market, though.
However, I have a feeling that XIV will have a built-in playerbase just from those who've played FFXI, which itself has a healthy playerbase of ~500k at last check... They just broke 2 million active characters after 7 years in service - that's nothing to sneeze at. I think FFXIV will succeed, or fail, entirely on its own merit, not necessarily directly because of a competing game.
Like FFXI, I have a feeling FFXIV will sorta be off in its own corner, so to speak.
I could well be completely wrong... but just wanted to share that perspective.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ahh, Al, I didn't say AIon was completely next-gen though, I merely stated that its going to be one of the competitors that SE will need to worry about while finishing the devlopment of FFXIV.
Just a thought on this bit...
I don't think FFXIV is necessarily going to have "competition" like other MMOs in the genre might - at least not in the same way. To be sure, Aion already has a large player base - ~4 million in the Eastern market, the last time I heard (though that could have been off). I don't know how well it'll fare in the Western market, though.
However, I have a feeling that XIV will have a built-in playerbase just from those who've played FFXI, which itself has a healthy playerbase of ~500k at last check... They just broke 2 million active characters after 7 years in service - that's nothing to sneeze at. I think FFXIV will succeed, or fail, entirely on its own merit, not necessarily directly because of a competing game.
Like FFXI, I have a feeling FFXIV will sorta be off in its own corner, so to speak.
I could well be completely wrong... but just wanted to share that perspective.
It's true that FFXI was in many ways a 'different type of game,' as compared to its contemporaries, so the competition might be more based on how players like to play, as opposed to how well that playstyle is implemented. The problem with this is that Squeenix will not want to cannibalize their FFXI player base too quckly; they will want players playing both FFXI and FFXIV for at least a couple years, rather than migrating en masse from 11 to 14. They can only lose players in a mass migration, because some might not like 14 and decide to stop playing alltogether, rather than return to a terminally depopulated 11. Therefore, they will most likely need to both a) expand their player base, and b) provide a noticably different experience from FFXI, if FFXIV is to survive and thrive.
Ahh, Al, I didn't say AIon was completely next-gen though, I merely stated that its going to be one of the competitors that SE will need to worry about while finishing the devlopment of FFXIV.
Just a thought on this bit...
I don't think FFXIV is necessarily going to have "competition" like other MMOs in the genre might - at least not in the same way. To be sure, Aion already has a large player base - ~4 million in the Eastern market, the last time I heard (though that could have been off). I don't know how well it'll fare in the Western market, though.
However, I have a feeling that XIV will have a built-in playerbase just from those who've played FFXI, which itself has a healthy playerbase of ~500k at last check... They just broke 2 million active characters after 7 years in service - that's nothing to sneeze at. I think FFXIV will succeed, or fail, entirely on its own merit, not necessarily directly because of a competing game.
Like FFXI, I have a feeling FFXIV will sorta be off in its own corner, so to speak.
I could well be completely wrong... but just wanted to share that perspective.
It's true that FFXI was in many ways a 'different type of game,' as compared to its contemporaries, so the competition might be more based on how players like to play, as opposed to how well that playstyle is implemented. The problem with this is that Squeenix will not want to cannibalize their FFXI player base too quckly; they will want players playing both FFXI and FFXIV for at least a couple years, rather than migrating en masse from 11 to 14. They can only lose players in a mass migration, because some might not like 14 and decide to stop playing alltogether, rather than return to a terminally depopulated 11. Therefore, they will most likely need to both a) expand their player base, and b) provide a noticably different experience from FFXI, if FFXIV is to survive and thrive.
Ahh... My bad, I didn't really explain myself thoroughly enough... in fact left an entire critical detail out that puts what I said in context. Go me! /facepalm
What I was referring to are those who've played, or even are still playing FFXI but might prefer something closer to FFXIV's more "casual friendly" approach.
Another group are those playing and fully enjoying FFXI *because* it's not casual friendly. There's a number in that group who've already said they have little more than passing curiosity about XIV becuase they don't like the "casual friendly" direction SE's taking.
Regarding the first group.... I've seen many over the years who tried FFXI and liked it in concept but found the gameplay too demanding on their time. My sister is one of them. They might be attracted to FFXIV as being - at least in gameplay - closer to what they'd wished FFXI was. There's also many who've come and gone - enough to account for a pretty consistent 500k players (despite turnover, people leaving, etc) ... So, from that group alone - not accounting for other categories of would-be players - FFXIV will have a built-in playerbase at launch (or, at least that's my opinion).
On the other hand, there are those playing FFXI at the moment who are also looking to play XIV. I think cannibalization is going to happen regardless. I also have a feeling SE is aware of this. I also think they'd much rather lose players from FFXI to FFXIV, keeping them as customers, than to lose them to a competitor.
Hopefully that cleared it up a bit :-p
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by WSIMike Ahh... My bad, I didn't really explain myself thoroughly enough... in fact left an entire critical detail out that puts what I said in context. Go me! /facepalm
What I was referring to are those who've played, or even are still playing FFXI but might prefer something closer to FFXIV's more "casual friendly" approach.
Another group are those playing and fully enjoying FFXI *because* it's not casual friendly. There's a number in that group who've already said they have little more than passing curiosity about XIV becuase they don't like the "casual friendly" direction SE's taking.
Regarding the first group.... I've seen many over the years who tried FFXI and liked it in concept but found the gameplay too demanding on their time. My sister is one of them. They might be attracted to FFXIV as being - at least in gameplay - closer to what they'd wished FFXI was. There's also many who've come and gone - enough to account for a pretty consistent 500k players (despite turnover, people leaving, etc) ... So, from that group alone - not accounting for other categories of would-be players - FFXIV will have a built-in playerbase at launch (or, at least that's my opinion).
On the other hand, there are those playing FFXI at the moment who are also looking to play XIV. I think cannibalization is going to happen regardless. I also have a feeling SE is aware of this. I also think they'd much rather lose players from FFXI to FFXIV, keeping them as customers, than to lose them to a competitor.
Hopefully that cleared it up a bit :-p
Somewhat, but we're standing on pretty shaky ground when we start to talk about a 'potential' player base composed of slightly disaffected former or current players. A lot of those players may have quit MMOs completely by now, or may have found a game that suits them better (and if we are being realistic here, that game will probably have been WoW).
Anyway, trying to steer back toward the topic here (as much as possible), if FFXIV is attempting to capture a specific player base, new or existing, with more 'casual-friendly' gameplay, then we may be talking about a drastic rework of combat, because as you pointed out, FFXI's system is not 'casual-friendly' in the least. If we are to extrapolate, the minimum number of characters in a 'viable party' will probably become smaller (to minimize LFG time), and those characters will be more varied in abilities (to satisfy those who like to both solo and group), and fights will be over faster - or else the payoff from individual fights will be higher (to allow for 'pick up and play,' short burst gameplay).
In such an environment, the developers will want to maximize the entertainment that the player can derrive from the game systems alone (as opposed to the entertainment they can derrive from long-term social interaction), so they might very well consider introducing more varied terrain types that necessitate different motion skills (swimming, jumping, climbing, flying, etc.).
Even if you could jump, you're not really going to be able to get somewhere that is exploitable as an advantage. If you can attack a monster, that monster can attack you. It's only the monsters that can traverse any terrain when they are aggro'd. I've seen them walk through tress and climb cliffs and find you long after you've reached the far end of the zone when they should have lost interest minutes ago. Even if you could jump, you wouldn't be able to exploit these things. Like jumping off the airships in FFXI, which didn't really DO anything but freak out newbies. That wasn't annoying. It was silly of course, but not annoying. The weren't dropped in some forbidden godmode data zone. They just... sat there (whoop-do-do) until the airship zoned.
If characters could trip and fall though, eek. That would bring a whole 'nuther frustration to running from enemies and surviving certain combat scenarios. Dragoon's jump is so fast it doesn't really make them 'invincible' or 'out of reach' for more than a split second every five minutes. I can't imagine anyone else's would either. So it would be nice to at least be some kind of unlockable ability, even if it was restricted to certain classes or skillsets. Everyone standing around, not jumping, reminds me of emos at concerts. xD
I do jump IRL. I jump often. I jump on top of things and walk ledges and climb trees and do handstands and things whenever those losers who've lost touch with their youth would say I was "out of line" aren't there to talk smack. Just making things larger would prevent people from being dumb. Like crags. There's no way on earth anyone could ever climb or jump a crag. Not even a dragoon. Not even on a chocobo. But you COULD still walk the spines in certain areas where you found Dancing Weapons. With ease I might add.
Even if you could jump, you're not really going to be able to get somewhere that is exploitable as an advantage. If you can attack a monster, that monster can attack you. It's only the monsters that can traverse any terrain when they are aggro'd. I've seen them walk through tress and climb cliffs and find you long after you've reached the far end of the zone when they should have lost interest minutes ago. Even if you could jump, you wouldn't be able to exploit these things. Like jumping off the airships in FFXI, which didn't really DO anything but freak out newbies. That wasn't annoying. It was silly of course, but not annoying. The weren't dropped in some forbidden godmode data zone. They just... sat there (whoop-do-do) until the airship zoned. If characters could trip and fall though, eek. That would bring a whole 'nuther frustration to running from enemies and surviving certain combat scenarios. Dragoon's jump is so fast it doesn't really make them 'invincible' or 'out of reach' for more than a split second every five minutes. I can't imagine anyone else's would either. So it would be nice to at least be some kind of unlockable ability, even if it was restricted to certain classes or skillsets. Everyone standing around, not jumping, reminds me of emos at concerts. xD I do jump IRL. I jump often. I jump on top of things and walk ledges and climb trees and do handstands and things whenever those losers who've lost touch with their youth would say I was "out of line" aren't there to talk smack. Just making things larger would prevent people from being dumb. Like crags. There's no way on earth anyone could ever climb or jump a crag. Not even a dragoon. Not even on a chocobo. But you COULD still walk the spines in certain areas where you found Dancing Weapons. With ease I might add.
I will have to disagree with your first point... somewhat. Just because adding jumping would grant no 'advantage' in FFXI, this does not mean that such must also be the case in FFXIV. There is no reason that i can think of why they could not create mobs that can jump to follow a player along a path broken by jumpable gaps - or, for that matter, mobs that would give up upon encountering such a barrier, or mobs that would fall back to a ranged attack when melee was not viable. Aside from terrain pathing, these are not complicated behaviors to program, and each of them would present the player with a specific set of strategic choices for dealing with that particular mob. Terrain advantages do not have to be 'exploits' when they are designed directly into the game, and real exploits are mostly preventable if the designers aren't sloppy when they design the terrain.
Not sure what to say about the other bits. Yes, with the ability to jump would necessarily come the ability to fall. That seems like a fun idea to me, though also potentially frustrating. The dragoon 'jump' ability would probably be something entirely different from just the regular terrain negotiation jump, if jumping were widely implemented. Perhaps they could actually give it some real hang time, and make it so that ranged attacks initiated while in the 'jump' state or a melee attack at the end of the jump did extra damage?
here is how I think about it and how the Devs should. Is this a gamebreaker for ANYONE if you CAN jump? is this a gamebreaker for anyone if you CAN'T? Yes. they should go with the majority. meaning, jump.
here is how I think about it and how the Devs should. Is this a gamebreaker for ANYONE if you CAN jump? is this a gamebreaker for anyone if you CAN'T? Yes. they should go with the majority. meaning, jump.
If they went with the Majority then we would have another wow clone. No Jumping!
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
This seems to be a very popular topic, we're having a vote about it over at FFXIVCore.com. I'd love to see more people vote to get a general overview of how many actually enjoy jumping or not.
Personally I feel jumping at the very least is a must. Swimming too.
here is how I think about it and how the Devs should. Is this a gamebreaker for ANYONE if you CAN jump? is this a gamebreaker for anyone if you CAN'T? Yes. they should go with the majority. meaning, jump.
So wait, you're presuming to speak for the majority?
If jumping isn't necessary in the game, then it's not missed and really not that big of a deal.
In my 6+ years playing XI, I've heard - maybe - a handful of people, out of dozens I've known and spoken to personally, ever even question it beyond whether the game had jumping or not. It wasn't enough of a "deal breaker" to prevent FFXI from doing well.
In my 3+ years, total, of playing Lineage 2, I've never heard people complain about the lack of jumping, because, again, nothing in the game necessitates it. It wasn't enough of a "deal breaker" to prevent L2 from doing well.
In all my time playing Guild Wars, the inability to jump (outside the emote, which is purely for show) has never been an issue because... again... the game's design doesn't necessitate it. It wasn't enough of a "deal breaker" to prevent Guild Wars from doing well.
I could name several more games in the same category...
On the other hand... if you had no jumping in a game designed like WoW, then yes, it would be a hinderance because there are obstacles in the game that require it.
If FFXIV were to release without a jump option, guaranteed, there would be nothing in the game that would make it "unplayable" without it and, beyond the initial disappointment or surprise at having no jump button, people would get used to it and just play the game. That's what they do in every other case.
Having no jumping might be a "deal breaker" for you and for others... sure. No denying that. But please, don't presume to speak for a "majority" based on personal preferences.
Personally, I'm indifferent either way, but leaning slightly more to the "hope they don't add it" side... simply because seeing people around me jumping all over the place for no reason gets tiresome after a while. But it won't be a "deal breaker" either way.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Although jumping can be kind of fun the novelty of it does wear off and in the end it's a "who cares" scenario. If the game doesn't need it I won't shed tears if it doesn't have it. My move from EQ1 to FFXI was a shocker - it took some time for me to adjust to the fact that I could not jump away to safety while being nearly mauled by a mob. You just learn to adapt.
If you ask me I'd say I prefer to have the ability to jump. Why? Yes, it's a PvE based game. Yes, there really wouldn't be much use to it if there are automatic triggers in the environment that makes me move up a rock or another obstacle. But if I accidently moved onto that trigger without wanting to move over it? Hmm this one could be fixed but... it makes me feel like I have an artificial intelligence controlling my character, I want full control of what my character does and will do. It's so much smoother when I press this button and I do a certain action besides moving onto this spot and letting the computer do it.
In WoW, when I walked around my thumb constantly went up and down. It was something to do to when you're bored. To some players abusing the jump can be annoying. I understand that but jumping makes me feel my character can be off the ground. I'm not stuck in a world where gravity limits me to the point of not being able to get a couple of inches off the floor. But this wouldn't be the reason why I would or wouldn't play the game. Having this options lets me JUMP!!
Ten pages on why there should be a "jump" button in a game where the vast majority of people playing the previous edition (FFXI) gaves two craps about jumping in the first place, and jumping where it wasn't integral to the gameplay style whatsoever.
Now I know why those other MMOs have been tanking in the last year or so. They listen TOO much to their fans, and not enough of common sense. Then they end up spending valuable development time on a cacophony of crap that is trivial, while the meat of potatoes of their games (gameplay, combat, quest dialogue, character development, community) works like bullshit. These people jump around in their games for three months, then get bored because they leveled too fast and are now bored of jumping.
Please, whichever games you people came from that allowed you to jump; please... jump back.
Jumping isn't part of the integral play style nor is it a necessity. Have you considered how much more freedom your character has if there is a jumping button? FFXI was my first MMO, yes I didn't care about jumping then, but after playing some other MMOs I've seen a remarkable difference in character control. I would rather have seen my taru have a jumping act rather than the same walking animation and being unable to have such a right.
EDIT: Hmm theres a physical form of how this works... Lets compare from that pic the third chick from the left with the guy to the far right. FFXI makes me feel like that chick. Jumping lets me have the other kid's freedom.
My freedom in MMOs comes from having vast, diverse, challenging and interesting areas to explore... not necessarily being able to "skip" and "jump" through those areas.
I would prefer they didn't spend the day, week, month or whatever time it takes to code in "realistic jumping", because we all know the "jumpers" won't be happy with whatever their characters LOOK like while jumping. ("Look how stupid the arms go out when I jump and my legs don't swivel naturally!")
As long as I'm not stuck with click-mouse movement as the only way of character control, jumping isn't a big deal. I get more than enough freedom in MMOs usually.
Jumping is a useful tactic in a non-snare kite. If kiting is allowed then jumping should be allowed.
So is warping and turbo boosts.
They should give everyone that as well. /sigh
Are you seriously comparing jumping with hacking? By what logical basis can you claim that jumping is cheating? If thats the position you are taking then a person could make pretty much the same case against kiting itself since you are exploiting the mobs weak AI and inability to realize it can never catch you.
Originally posted by svann Originally posted by popinjay
Originally posted by svann Jumping is a useful tactic in a non-snare kite. If kiting is allowed then jumping should be allowed.
So is warping and turbo boosts.
They should give everyone that as well. /sigh
Are you seriously comparing jumping with hacking? By what logical basis can you claim that jumping is cheating? If thats the position you are taking then a person could make pretty much the same case against kiting itself since you are exploiting the mobs weak AI and inability to realize it can never catch you.
What hack? Who said hack?
In other games, certain classes have speed advantages that allow them to farm easier.
Comments
Ahh, Al, I didn't say AIon was completely next-gen though, I merely stated that its going to be one of the competitors that SE will need to worry about while finishing the devlopment of FFXIV. Also keep in mind since you're playing the closed beta of Aion, the graphics are miles from what they will be like when the game launches; I've seen the screenshots from it, and even in their current state they are years ahead of WoW on maximum settings.
I agree with water and elevation being natural barriers, though its been proven one can get across them by many hackers, even without swimming/jumping/flying. In many cases zones were deigned around it in FFXI, though people easily found ways around it, such as Raising people through/around walls. One should also keep in mind the most successful games actually utilize jumping and swimming, of course. In many cases, when people discovered hidden areas such as the tiny island Varian Wrynn was on (which was actually MEANT to be found) the publicity generated brought in more players.
Back to the topic on hand though..The game's launching in 2010; it shouldn't seek to restrict the immersion of its players, nor should it try to cut corners with design; SE has a reputation for great gameplay, and with the many things a PS3 can do, I believe they'll be able to make at least one of the many controller buttons jump, for the people who don't feel like buying a keyboard and lack a pc. Heck, if F2P games such as Runes of Magic, Perfect World, and Flyff can do it, I'd pretty much assume that SE will put in, at bare minimum, jumping and swimming. They've been working on this game since the release of XI, remember?
oh and here's a CB screenshot from Aion..not sure how recent it is, though.
http://www.gameinfowire.com/image.asp?iid=86447&gid=2358&pg=&pid=6
Blows WoW's graphics completely out of the water.
/shrug
This is a forum - discussion is theoretically what they're for. What we say here will most likely have no effect at all on what the design team actually does, this game is far, far from release and we have almost no information about it, so you could say that any FFXIV thread is basically pointless, from that perspective.
Regarding a system where certain obstacles are scalable by design, i've already said that's probably a reasonable idea, but it would entail an extra degree of attention to the environment that, given past experience, this design team may not want to pay. It comes down to what sort of experience they're trying to give us; they've already stated that combat in FFXIV will be more 'action' oriented, but what exactly does that mean? If it means introducing more action RPG elements, such terrain/motion/position-based benefits in combat, then jumping may indeed be in the future for this game, regardless of what we all want.
Hehe well I agree. I'm just saying that you'd expect this kind of thread to be short.
"Can you jump in FFXIV?"
"Yes, no, we don't know, you're a noob"... couple of responses. But then it turns into a 4-page long discussion. Interesting, to say the least.
It's like asking, "Does my car get good MPG?" and then having a huge discussion about whether Global Warming exists or not. They're related, but it isn't really relevant to the guy's question.
As for your second paragraph, I agree. It would take more attention to the environment, sort of like if SW:TOR turned their cover system into something from the Relic RTS games (where certain types of obstacles provided either no cover, light cover, or heavy cover). Instead, Bioware will have pre-programmed spots where the character can take cover, instead of being able to take cover anywhere but having the amount of cover limited to what it's hiding behind. Jumping will most likely be included, for combat and everything else, because it's an easier but slightly ridiculous (if overused) type of motion to code.
Sorry; i assumed a bit there when you pulled the 'next generation' card. That descriptor is flame-bait of the worst kind. Anyhow, the version of Aion used in the CB is 1.02, which is the version currently used on the Chinese servers. For the most part, the graphics will not improve much when it comes out in NA at version 1.5. Aion's custom character graphics are excellent, but are often hidden by armor - and why can't any MMO developer ever come up with hats that don't completely override the character model's hair style?
Its environment graphics (and the objects underneat them), on the other hand, could frankly use a little work. The textures are not really high detail when examined up close. Outside of the Abyss there are invisible walls all over the place in the free-fly areas, and structures in particular are often not the same 'shape' as the graphic overlaid upon them, so when you land on the wall of a fortress you often find yourself standing on thin air a few feet above the bricks.
I am ambivalent about jumping and swimming with regard to FFXI, as i had no problem enjoying them game without them. If we are to consider FFXIV a truly 'new game,' however... if implemented well, either one could offer a lot of depth of gameplay. Not doing a half-@$$sed job of it is the key. If they introduce jump puzzles, or zones where things you need to get to are placed at high elevation or across bodies of water, or if they add positional bonuses (for high ground or flanking, for instance), these things could enhance the game experience. If not... if they don't plan on doing it well, it might be best not to try at all, and just stick with what they know.
Runes of Magic, Perfect World and Flyff are probably not good examples to use when making the case of, 'Well, these games do it, so why can't FFXIV?' From what little we've seen, Squeenix seems to be trying to use extremely high-quality graphics for FFXIV, which will place very difinite time, money and labor constraints on what they can accomplish. They may not want to spend time designing underwater scenery that few players will ever see, or mapping each bush in the landscape so that they can decide whether or not a player can jump over it.
Hehe well I agree. I'm just saying that you'd expect this kind of thread to be short.
"Can you jump in FFXIV?"
"Yes, no, we don't know, you're a noob"... couple of responses. But then it turns into a 4-page long discussion. Interesting, to say the least.
It's like asking, "Does my car get good MPG?" and then having a huge discussion about whether Global Warming exists or not. They're related, but it isn't really relevant to the guy's question.
As for your second paragraph, I agree. It would take more attention to the environment, sort of like if SW:TOR turned their cover system into something from the Relic RTS games (where certain types of obstacles provided either no cover, light cover, or heavy cover). Instead, Bioware will have pre-programmed spots where the character can take cover, instead of being able to take cover anywhere but having the amount of cover limited to what it's hiding behind. Jumping will most likely be included, for combat and everything else, because it's an easier but slightly ridiculous (if overused) type of motion to code.
The shift in topic was intentional (at least on my part); where's the fun in short threads where nothing intelligent or entertaining is actually said? :P
Your mention of Bioware's cover system has remided me of the recently departed: Tabula Rasa. Tabula Rasa had a complete, percentage-based cover system, where every object in the game hobbled your enemy with a certain percentage of 'miss chance' if you were hiding behind it, and this chance varied depending upon how well you were hiding behind it (standing, crouching, etc.). Tabula Rasa did this because the main mode of combat for every character was ranged attack, but it shows that innovation is possible, and that it can actually work, but it will not necessarily guarantee a game's success.
I suppose we can only hope that Squeenix will lavish their environments with such attention to detail that any innovations they introduce in FFXIV's combat feel natural and fun.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It's true that FFXI was in many ways a 'different type of game,' as compared to its contemporaries, so the competition might be more based on how players like to play, as opposed to how well that playstyle is implemented. The problem with this is that Squeenix will not want to cannibalize their FFXI player base too quckly; they will want players playing both FFXI and FFXIV for at least a couple years, rather than migrating en masse from 11 to 14. They can only lose players in a mass migration, because some might not like 14 and decide to stop playing alltogether, rather than return to a terminally depopulated 11. Therefore, they will most likely need to both a) expand their player base, and b) provide a noticably different experience from FFXI, if FFXIV is to survive and thrive.
It's true that FFXI was in many ways a 'different type of game,' as compared to its contemporaries, so the competition might be more based on how players like to play, as opposed to how well that playstyle is implemented. The problem with this is that Squeenix will not want to cannibalize their FFXI player base too quckly; they will want players playing both FFXI and FFXIV for at least a couple years, rather than migrating en masse from 11 to 14. They can only lose players in a mass migration, because some might not like 14 and decide to stop playing alltogether, rather than return to a terminally depopulated 11. Therefore, they will most likely need to both a) expand their player base, and b) provide a noticably different experience from FFXI, if FFXIV is to survive and thrive.
Ahh... My bad, I didn't really explain myself thoroughly enough... in fact left an entire critical detail out that puts what I said in context. Go me! /facepalm
What I was referring to are those who've played, or even are still playing FFXI but might prefer something closer to FFXIV's more "casual friendly" approach.
Another group are those playing and fully enjoying FFXI *because* it's not casual friendly. There's a number in that group who've already said they have little more than passing curiosity about XIV becuase they don't like the "casual friendly" direction SE's taking.
Regarding the first group.... I've seen many over the years who tried FFXI and liked it in concept but found the gameplay too demanding on their time. My sister is one of them. They might be attracted to FFXIV as being - at least in gameplay - closer to what they'd wished FFXI was. There's also many who've come and gone - enough to account for a pretty consistent 500k players (despite turnover, people leaving, etc) ... So, from that group alone - not accounting for other categories of would-be players - FFXIV will have a built-in playerbase at launch (or, at least that's my opinion).
On the other hand, there are those playing FFXI at the moment who are also looking to play XIV. I think cannibalization is going to happen regardless. I also have a feeling SE is aware of this. I also think they'd much rather lose players from FFXI to FFXIV, keeping them as customers, than to lose them to a competitor.
Hopefully that cleared it up a bit :-p
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Somewhat, but we're standing on pretty shaky ground when we start to talk about a 'potential' player base composed of slightly disaffected former or current players. A lot of those players may have quit MMOs completely by now, or may have found a game that suits them better (and if we are being realistic here, that game will probably have been WoW).
Anyway, trying to steer back toward the topic here (as much as possible), if FFXIV is attempting to capture a specific player base, new or existing, with more 'casual-friendly' gameplay, then we may be talking about a drastic rework of combat, because as you pointed out, FFXI's system is not 'casual-friendly' in the least. If we are to extrapolate, the minimum number of characters in a 'viable party' will probably become smaller (to minimize LFG time), and those characters will be more varied in abilities (to satisfy those who like to both solo and group), and fights will be over faster - or else the payoff from individual fights will be higher (to allow for 'pick up and play,' short burst gameplay).
In such an environment, the developers will want to maximize the entertainment that the player can derrive from the game systems alone (as opposed to the entertainment they can derrive from long-term social interaction), so they might very well consider introducing more varied terrain types that necessitate different motion skills (swimming, jumping, climbing, flying, etc.).
Even if you could jump, you're not really going to be able to get somewhere that is exploitable as an advantage. If you can attack a monster, that monster can attack you. It's only the monsters that can traverse any terrain when they are aggro'd. I've seen them walk through tress and climb cliffs and find you long after you've reached the far end of the zone when they should have lost interest minutes ago. Even if you could jump, you wouldn't be able to exploit these things. Like jumping off the airships in FFXI, which didn't really DO anything but freak out newbies. That wasn't annoying. It was silly of course, but not annoying. The weren't dropped in some forbidden godmode data zone. They just... sat there (whoop-do-do) until the airship zoned.
If characters could trip and fall though, eek. That would bring a whole 'nuther frustration to running from enemies and surviving certain combat scenarios. Dragoon's jump is so fast it doesn't really make them 'invincible' or 'out of reach' for more than a split second every five minutes. I can't imagine anyone else's would either. So it would be nice to at least be some kind of unlockable ability, even if it was restricted to certain classes or skillsets. Everyone standing around, not jumping, reminds me of emos at concerts. xD
I do jump IRL. I jump often. I jump on top of things and walk ledges and climb trees and do handstands and things whenever those losers who've lost touch with their youth would say I was "out of line" aren't there to talk smack. Just making things larger would prevent people from being dumb. Like crags. There's no way on earth anyone could ever climb or jump a crag. Not even a dragoon. Not even on a chocobo. But you COULD still walk the spines in certain areas where you found Dancing Weapons. With ease I might add.
Abraxas [365]
I will have to disagree with your first point... somewhat. Just because adding jumping would grant no 'advantage' in FFXI, this does not mean that such must also be the case in FFXIV. There is no reason that i can think of why they could not create mobs that can jump to follow a player along a path broken by jumpable gaps - or, for that matter, mobs that would give up upon encountering such a barrier, or mobs that would fall back to a ranged attack when melee was not viable. Aside from terrain pathing, these are not complicated behaviors to program, and each of them would present the player with a specific set of strategic choices for dealing with that particular mob. Terrain advantages do not have to be 'exploits' when they are designed directly into the game, and real exploits are mostly preventable if the designers aren't sloppy when they design the terrain.
Not sure what to say about the other bits. Yes, with the ability to jump would necessarily come the ability to fall. That seems like a fun idea to me, though also potentially frustrating. The dragoon 'jump' ability would probably be something entirely different from just the regular terrain negotiation jump, if jumping were widely implemented. Perhaps they could actually give it some real hang time, and make it so that ranged attacks initiated while in the 'jump' state or a melee attack at the end of the jump did extra damage?
haha, I hope so. Jumping always gave me something to do when I was bored in other games
here is how I think about it and how the Devs should. Is this a gamebreaker for ANYONE if you CAN jump? is this a gamebreaker for anyone if you CAN'T? Yes. they should go with the majority. meaning, jump.
If they went with the Majority then we would have another wow clone. No Jumping!
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
This seems to be a very popular topic, we're having a vote about it over at FFXIVCore.com. I'd love to see more people vote to get a general overview of how many actually enjoy jumping or not.
Personally I feel jumping at the very least is a must. Swimming too.
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So wait, you're presuming to speak for the majority?
If jumping isn't necessary in the game, then it's not missed and really not that big of a deal.
In my 6+ years playing XI, I've heard - maybe - a handful of people, out of dozens I've known and spoken to personally, ever even question it beyond whether the game had jumping or not. It wasn't enough of a "deal breaker" to prevent FFXI from doing well.
In my 3+ years, total, of playing Lineage 2, I've never heard people complain about the lack of jumping, because, again, nothing in the game necessitates it. It wasn't enough of a "deal breaker" to prevent L2 from doing well.
In all my time playing Guild Wars, the inability to jump (outside the emote, which is purely for show) has never been an issue because... again... the game's design doesn't necessitate it. It wasn't enough of a "deal breaker" to prevent Guild Wars from doing well.
I could name several more games in the same category...
On the other hand... if you had no jumping in a game designed like WoW, then yes, it would be a hinderance because there are obstacles in the game that require it.
If FFXIV were to release without a jump option, guaranteed, there would be nothing in the game that would make it "unplayable" without it and, beyond the initial disappointment or surprise at having no jump button, people would get used to it and just play the game. That's what they do in every other case.
Having no jumping might be a "deal breaker" for you and for others... sure. No denying that. But please, don't presume to speak for a "majority" based on personal preferences.
Personally, I'm indifferent either way, but leaning slightly more to the "hope they don't add it" side... simply because seeing people around me jumping all over the place for no reason gets tiresome after a while. But it won't be a "deal breaker" either way.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Although jumping can be kind of fun the novelty of it does wear off and in the end it's a "who cares" scenario. If the game doesn't need it I won't shed tears if it doesn't have it. My move from EQ1 to FFXI was a shocker - it took some time for me to adjust to the fact that I could not jump away to safety while being nearly mauled by a mob. You just learn to adapt.
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If you ask me I'd say I prefer to have the ability to jump. Why? Yes, it's a PvE based game. Yes, there really wouldn't be much use to it if there are automatic triggers in the environment that makes me move up a rock or another obstacle. But if I accidently moved onto that trigger without wanting to move over it? Hmm this one could be fixed but... it makes me feel like I have an artificial intelligence controlling my character, I want full control of what my character does and will do. It's so much smoother when I press this button and I do a certain action besides moving onto this spot and letting the computer do it.
In WoW, when I walked around my thumb constantly went up and down. It was something to do to when you're bored. To some players abusing the jump can be annoying. I understand that but jumping makes me feel my character can be off the ground. I'm not stuck in a world where gravity limits me to the point of not being able to get a couple of inches off the floor. But this wouldn't be the reason why I would or wouldn't play the game. Having this options lets me JUMP!!
Ten pages on why there should be a "jump" button in a game where the vast majority of people playing the previous edition (FFXI) gaves two craps about jumping in the first place, and jumping where it wasn't integral to the gameplay style whatsoever.
Now I know why those other MMOs have been tanking in the last year or so. They listen TOO much to their fans, and not enough of common sense. Then they end up spending valuable development time on a cacophony of crap that is trivial, while the meat of potatoes of their games (gameplay, combat, quest dialogue, character development, community) works like bullshit. These people jump around in their games for three months, then get bored because they leveled too fast and are now bored of jumping.
Please, whichever games you people came from that allowed you to jump; please... jump back.
"TO MICHAEL!"
rofl @ ;pic
Jumping isn't part of the integral play style nor is it a necessity. Have you considered how much more freedom your character has if there is a jumping button? FFXI was my first MMO, yes I didn't care about jumping then, but after playing some other MMOs I've seen a remarkable difference in character control. I would rather have seen my taru have a jumping act rather than the same walking animation and being unable to have such a right.
EDIT: Hmm theres a physical form of how this works... Lets compare from that pic the third chick from the left with the guy to the far right. FFXI makes me feel like that chick. Jumping lets me have the other kid's freedom.
My freedom in MMOs comes from having vast, diverse, challenging and interesting areas to explore... not necessarily being able to "skip" and "jump" through those areas.
I would prefer they didn't spend the day, week, month or whatever time it takes to code in "realistic jumping", because we all know the "jumpers" won't be happy with whatever their characters LOOK like while jumping. ("Look how stupid the arms go out when I jump and my legs don't swivel naturally!")
As long as I'm not stuck with click-mouse movement as the only way of character control, jumping isn't a big deal. I get more than enough freedom in MMOs usually.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Jumping is a useful tactic in a non-snare kite. If kiting is allowed then jumping should be allowed.
They should give everyone that as well. /sigh
"TO MICHAEL!"
They should give everyone that as well. /sigh
Are you seriously comparing jumping with hacking? By what logical basis can you claim that jumping is cheating? If thats the position you are taking then a person could make pretty much the same case against kiting itself since you are exploiting the mobs weak AI and inability to realize it can never catch you.
They should give everyone that as well. /sigh
Are you seriously comparing jumping with hacking? By what logical basis can you claim that jumping is cheating? If thats the position you are taking then a person could make pretty much the same case against kiting itself since you are exploiting the mobs weak AI and inability to realize it can never catch you.
What hack? Who said hack?
In other games, certain classes have speed advantages that allow them to farm easier.
I think you read into something not typed there.
"TO MICHAEL!"