Whether or not players on the opposite faction have fun or not is of no concern.
Whether or not someone else feels bad is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
Whether someone else decides to quit or not is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
You use the argument that since it doesn't concern you, it doesn't count. Hate to break it to you, but just because things don't concern you, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Bottom line, regardless of what you pretend to believe, other people ARE concerned how other players feel and what they do. And their concern is that they are pleased if those players are frustated by their actions. Thus griefing.
I never said players feeling bad doesn't exist.
I just said it's none of my concern.
Do you also admit the existance of other players feeling good for killing low level players who can't possibly harm them and receive no in-game reward and the good feeling comes from making the other player feel bad?
I am not psychic and don't presume to know the feelings or motives of other players.
Believe it or not, but I can. It's my game, my money, my character, my time..all of it. It's mine. There's nothing anywhere that says I can't come and go as I please.
So yes, I can determine the rules. If you don't like my rules, don't play with me.
Incorrect, if you don't like the game rules, which you don't determine, don't play the game.
The obvious lack of logic is astonishing in this thread. Griefing is the action of deliberately trying to ruin the entertainment of others. Griefing is not killing someone in a game via PvP. That is simply another form of entertainment. When I am killed, I am not being griefed, I am being defeated in combat. However, when I am attempting to leave an area, and am killed. Come back to life making another attempt to leave and no longer am trying to fight, and am killed again. That is griefing. You are killing a player who is no longer trying to PvP, but merely leave the battlefield. You know I am not fighting, You know that I am trying to leave the area, yet you are continously attacking and killing me to which you gain no EXP, currency, nor other ingame items. You are merely doing it to bother me.
There is no honor, no glory, in killing those who are not fighting back. There are no emotions involved. There is a difference between a warrior trying to be the best, and a murderer.
You can have all the e-honor you want. Because in the real world, your ingame lives mean nothing.
Killing a player who is trying to leave a battlefield isn't griefing, its a route :P
Does this mean the North Vietnamese were griefing the US Army during Vietnam? :P
Ah, I've had the pleasure of serving in real life combat. Fortunately in real life there are no log outs, drops and time outs. There's just combat.
Also unfortunately, there is a such thing as retreat to which the rules of engagement state you do not continue to force combat.
P.S. The Army is kind of like the ghetto of the U.S military.
Do you also admit the existance of other players feeling good for killing low level players who can't possibly harm them and receive no in-game reward and the good feeling comes from making the other player feel bad?
I am not psychic and don't presume to know the feelings or motives of other players.
Either way, their motives are none of my concern.
So maybe you should change the premise of your argument.
"Griefing and Ganking exist within the lexicon of game verbiage (game verbiage? is that the best I could come up with?) . These terms are acknowledge by some to be the cornerstones of what is considered by some to be what is bad in gaming."
"However, I personally think that the players who play a pvp game misunderstand that this is built into the game and that they are getting upset about developer acknowledged game mechanics. therefore it is not my concern if they do not understand the rules of the game that they play as I am only concerened with winning within the confines of those rules".
At least that make more sense to me.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Whether or not players on the opposite faction have fun or not is of no concern.
Whether or not someone else feels bad is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
Whether someone else decides to quit or not is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
You use the argument that since it doesn't concern you, it doesn't count. Hate to break it to you, but just because things don't concern you, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Bottom line, regardless of what you pretend to believe, other people ARE concerned how other players feel and what they do. And their concern is that they are pleased if those players are frustated by their actions. Thus griefing.
I never said players feeling bad doesn't exist.
I just said it's none of my concern.
Do you also admit the existance of other players feeling good for killing low level players who can't possibly harm them and receive no in-game reward and the good feeling comes from making the other player feel bad?
I am not psychic and don't presume to know the feelings or motives of other players.
Either way, their motives are none of my concern.
You don't need to know the feelings of any specific player, and not being psychic didn't stop you from acknowledging the existence of those who feel bad. Besides, who needs to be psychic? Are you a noob? You've never read a chat or forum post exulting in causing someone to feel bad?
Believe it or not, but I can. It's my game, my money, my character, my time..all of it. It's mine. There's nothing anywhere that says I can't come and go as I please.
So yes, I can determine the rules. If you don't like my rules, don't play with me.
Incorrect, if you don't like the game rules, which you don't determine, don't play the game.
I think you misunderstood where I was going with that.
I was implying that, if you bothered me and I was no longer having fun, I could simply turn the game off. To which, nothing ingame or out of game prevents me from doing so.
Since it is My game, money ect ect I am the one who determines if I play or not, no one else. Those are the mechanics I was refering to.
There is no such thing as "griefing" or "ganking". They are simply excuses made up for one reason or another. It's all in your head. Think of it this way, when you kill NPCs, are you "griefing" them? Are you "ganking" them? Of course not. There is no such thing as "ganking" or "griefing". Learn not to make excuses and grind harder.
reported for trolling, now get back in your cave and leave our nice boards alone!
The obvious lack of logic is astonishing in this thread. Griefing is the action of deliberately trying to ruin the entertainment of others. Griefing is not killing someone in a game via PvP. That is simply another form of entertainment. When I am killed, I am not being griefed, I am being defeated in combat. However, when I am attempting to leave an area, and am killed. Come back to life making another attempt to leave and no longer am trying to fight, and am killed again. That is griefing. You are killing a player who is no longer trying to PvP, but merely leave the battlefield. You know I am not fighting, You know that I am trying to leave the area, yet you are continously attacking and killing me to which you gain no EXP, currency, nor other ingame items. You are merely doing it to bother me.
There is no honor, no glory, in killing those who are not fighting back. There are no emotions involved. There is a difference between a warrior trying to be the best, and a murderer.
You can have all the e-honor you want. Because in the real world, your ingame lives mean nothing.
Killing a player who is trying to leave a battlefield isn't griefing, its a route :P
Does this mean the North Vietnamese were griefing the US Army during Vietnam? :P
Ah, I've had the pleasure of serving in real life combat. Fortunately in real life there are no log outs, drops and time outs. There's just combat.
Also unfortunately, there is a such thing as retreat to which the rules of engagement state you do not continue to force combat.
P.S. The Army is kind of like the ghetto of the U.S military.
I served in the military as well and by far the Army is the largest portion of the U.S.'s military forces. And since ghettos are strictly for minorities that group together.....that would make the Coast Guard the "ghetto of the U.S. military" and the Marines close behind.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
The obvious lack of logic is astonishing in this thread. Griefing is the action of deliberately trying to ruin the entertainment of others. Griefing is not killing someone in a game via PvP. That is simply another form of entertainment. When I am killed, I am not being griefed, I am being defeated in combat. However, when I am attempting to leave an area, and am killed. Come back to life making another attempt to leave and no longer am trying to fight, and am killed again. That is griefing. You are killing a player who is no longer trying to PvP, but merely leave the battlefield. You know I am not fighting, You know that I am trying to leave the area, yet you are continously attacking and killing me to which you gain no EXP, currency, nor other ingame items. You are merely doing it to bother me.
There is no honor, no glory, in killing those who are not fighting back. There are no emotions involved. There is a difference between a warrior trying to be the best, and a murderer.
You can have all the e-honor you want. Because in the real world, your ingame lives mean nothing.
Killing a player who is trying to leave a battlefield isn't griefing, its a route :P
Does this mean the North Vietnamese were griefing the US Army during Vietnam? :P
Ah, I've had the pleasure of serving in real life combat. Fortunately in real life there are no log outs, drops and time outs. There's just combat.
Also unfortunately, there is a such thing as retreat to which the rules of engagement state you do not continue to force combat.
P.S. The Army is kind of like the ghetto of the U.S military.
I served in the military as well and by far the Army is the largest portion of the U.S.'s military forces. And since ghettos are strictly for minorities that group together.....that would make the Coast Guard the "ghetto of the U.S. military" and the Marines close behind.
No love for the Air Force? I'd say we're the ghetto ones. Low budget, old gear, dated training.
Griefing and ganking should be allowed in MMORPG, they are a basic part of role playing. But they should also be limited with mechanics inside the game.
For example someone who did some griefing or ganking would get the status of a murderer for some limited playing time. The duration depends on how heavy the griefing or ganking was (10, 20, 50 or more hours of playing time - playing time means the time when the player is logged in the game and playing). During that time everybody could grief or gank him without getting the status of a murderer themselves. NPC guards would kill a murderer on sight, so the murderer would have no access to towns and other guarded places. There would be a very large bounty for killing a murderer. The bounty should be so large that other players would be very interested in hunting the murderer down. The bounty would last for the whole time that a player has a status of a murderer, so if other players would kill the murderer 10 times, they would get 10 times the bounty. The size of the bounty depends on how heavy the griefing or ganking was.
I think that this solution would bring new interesting dynamics in a MMORPG. We would probably get guilds of bounty hunters with the main purpose of hunting down the murderers and getting the bounties. The griefers and gankers would also probably establish some guilds for protecting themselves against bounty hunters. It would be very interesting.
Griefing and ganking should be allowed in MMORPG, they are a basic part of role playing. But they should also be limited with mechanics inside the game.
For example someone who did some griefing or ganking would get the status of a murderer for some limited playing time. The duration depends on how heavy the griefing or ganking was (10, 20, 50 or more hours of playing time - playing time means the time when the player is logged in the game and playing). During that time everybody could grief or gank him without getting the status of a murderer themselves. NPC guards would kill a murderer on sight, so the murderer would have no access to towns and other guarded places. There would be a very large bounty for killing a murderer. The bounty should be so large that other players would be very interested in hunting the murderer down. The bounty would last for the whole time that a player has a status of a murderer, so if other players would kill the murderer 10 times, they would get 10 times the bounty. The size of the bounty depends on how heavy the griefing or ganking was.
I think that this solution would bring new interesting dynamics in a MMORPG. We would probably get guilds of bounty hunters with the main purpose of hunting down the murderers and getting the bounties. The griefers and gankers would also probably establish some guilds for protecting themselves against bounty hunters. It would be very interesting.
Bounties are a joke. Make it large enough, and the ganker has a fellow ganker kill them and split the bounty. NPC bounty hunters are too limited in terms of AI to be effective. Gankers learn to work around them or ambush them. Every anti ganker/griefer system that I've seen in countless games, that doesn't involve a hard coded flag, just leads to an endless arms race with the gankers/griefers. Its a total waste of the Dev's time and efforts. No matter how creative one is, the gankers/griefers will find a loop hole. Look at the evolution of Concord in Eve as just one example of such an arms race.
Whether or not players on the opposite faction have fun or not is of no concern.
Whether or not someone else feels bad is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
Whether someone else decides to quit or not is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
You use the argument that since it doesn't concern you, it doesn't count. Hate to break it to you, but just because things don't concern you, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Bottom line, regardless of what you pretend to believe, other people ARE concerned how other players feel and what they do. And their concern is that they are pleased if those players are frustated by their actions. Thus griefing.
I never said players feeling bad doesn't exist.
I just said it's none of my concern.
Do you also admit the existance of other players feeling good for killing low level players who can't possibly harm them and receive no in-game reward and the good feeling comes from making the other player feel bad?
I am not psychic and don't presume to know the feelings or motives of other players.
Either way, their motives are none of my concern.
You don't need to know the feelings of any specific player, and not being psychic didn't stop you from acknowledging the existence of those who feel bad. Besides, who needs to be psychic? Are you a noob? You've never read a chat or forum post exulting in causing someone to feel bad?
The feelings of other players are irrelevant and are none of my concern.
From Lum The Mad's Blog, a definition of what doesn't exit.
"Ultima Online players did not have that luxury. And for some, those on the other side who developed a taste for causing misery, there actually developed a justification for it. You see it glancingly referred to in the article linked above – the "evil player".
In UO, the "evil player" was not a PvPer (because PvPers crave challenge, something which the grief player assiduously avoids), but someone who indulged in specifically targeted grief. One sterling example would open a "gate" in an area full of new players, lure them through with a promise of gold or other wealth, and then, when they went through the gate to a small island, killed them and closed the gate, stranding their ghost until customer support fished them out. Heh heh heh. Stupid newbie. Should have known better. Heh heh heh.
The "evil player", when called on this behavior, then claims to be an integral part of the game world. Evil needs to be fought against. It makes the game interesting to have someone to hate, right? I mean, they’re so altruistic! It’s a public service, being an asshole. Hard work and all that. Lost your house? Stupid newbie, everyone knows to carry 30 boxes and 20 furs to hide your key under so it takes a thief at least 10 seconds using a 3rd party macro program to steal it. Killed while hunting? Stupid newbie, suck it up and deal. Learn to fight and maybe someday you can be one of us.
Of course, no one wants to be a "stupid newbie", and very few people will actually pay for the privilege. Yet, in Ultima Online, people did. Because quite literally, that’s all there was. Ultima Online was the only large-scale MMO on the market. If you wanted to play an MMO, you dealt with the PKs and the bank thiefs and the miner killers and all the other great examples of humanity UO brought out in people. The fact that people actually played in spite of all that actually speaks a great deal to the potential of MMOs."
From Lum The Mad's Blog, a definition of what doesn't exit.
"Ultima Online players did not have that luxury. And for some, those on the other side who developed a taste for causing misery, there actually developed a justification for it. You see it glancingly referred to in the article linked above – the "evil player". In UO, the "evil player" was not a PvPer (because PvPers crave challenge, something which the grief player assiduously avoids), but someone who indulged in specifically targeted grief. One sterling example would open a "gate" in an area full of new players, lure them through with a promise of gold or other wealth, and then, when they went through the gate to a small island, killed them and closed the gate, stranding their ghost until customer support fished them out. Heh heh heh. Stupid newbie. Should have known better. Heh heh heh. The "evil player", when called on this behavior, then claims to be an integral part of the game world. Evil needs to be fought against. It makes the game interesting to have someone to hate, right? I mean, they’re so altruistic! It’s a public service, being an asshole. Hard work and all that. Lost your house? Stupid newbie, everyone knows to carry 30 boxes and 20 furs to hide your key under so it takes a thief at least 10 seconds using a 3rd party macro program to steal it. Killed while hunting? Stupid newbie, suck it up and deal. Learn to fight and maybe someday you can be one of us. Of course, no one wants to be a "stupid newbie", and very few people will actually pay for the privilege. Yet, in Ultima Online, people did. Because quite literally, that’s all there was. Ultima Online was the only large-scale MMO on the market. If you wanted to play an MMO, you dealt with the PKs and the bank thiefs and the miner killers and all the other great examples of humanity UO brought out in people. The fact that people actually played in spite of all that actually speaks a great deal to the potential of MMOs."
Yet most ultima players look back fondly on their UO experience, because in fact it was challenging. Bank thieves were douchbags I'll agree to that, but evil is evil. UO is the only game where I've ever been walking down a road exploring(while i was new) and had somone give the choice my money or my life. Exciting! Banditry! I loved it.
Fairness is irrelevant, since fairness is subjective. My only concern is what the game allows me to do. If someone feels that whatever the game allows is unfair, well, it is not of any concern to me.
True and correct (to a point). What you fail to understand though is that griefing (the deliberate use of allowed game mechanics to harass or otherwise interfere with anothers enjoyment of the game) is both defined and prohibited by most (if not all) mmo EULA's or TOS's and as such you can be reported and banned by the GM's. You can argue semantics all you like, but if you grief (as defined by NCsoft, not by you) than you will be banned (and rightly so) even if you don't actually cheat in any way. So in that sense it is of concern to you not to violate the terms of service, and in order to do that you had better make sure you know what NCsoft considers griefing before you hop into the game.
People, it is clear that the OP is a tr00 hxc character; abolishing the human emotions and whatnot in order to win, or whatever he may call it. Such a person has discovered that giving up the nature of humans will bring him the "invincible" character. Then I ask, what the hell are you doing playing games then? Go teach your ways to people to "further enhance" their ways of life, as seems apparent from your troll posts.
Fairness is irrelevant, since fairness is subjective. My only concern is what the game allows me to do. If someone feels that whatever the game allows is unfair, well, it is not of any concern to me.
True and correct (to a point). What you fail to understand though is that griefing (the deliberate use of allowed game mechanics to harass or otherwise interfere with anothers enjoyment of the game) is both defined and prohibited by most (if not all) mmo EULA's or TOS's and as such you can be reported and banned by the GM's. You can argue semantics all you like, but if you grief (as defined by NCsoft, not by you) than you will be banned (and rightly so) even if you don't actually cheat in an way. So in that sense it is of concern to you not to violate the terms of service, and in order to do that you had better make sure you know what NCsoft considers griefing before you hop into the game.
And this is basically is the final word. You are playing their game by their rules (which are there for a reason).
Whether or not players on the opposite faction have fun or not is of no concern.
Whether or not someone else feels bad is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
Whether someone else decides to quit or not is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
You use the argument that since it doesn't concern you, it doesn't count. Hate to break it to you, but just because things don't concern you, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Bottom line, regardless of what you pretend to believe, other people ARE concerned how other players feel and what they do. And their concern is that they are pleased if those players are frustated by their actions. Thus griefing.
I never said players feeling bad doesn't exist.
I just said it's none of my concern.
Do you also admit the existance of other players feeling good for killing low level players who can't possibly harm them and receive no in-game reward and the good feeling comes from making the other player feel bad?
I am not psychic and don't presume to know the feelings or motives of other players.
Either way, their motives are none of my concern.
You don't need to know the feelings of any specific player, and not being psychic didn't stop you from acknowledging the existence of those who feel bad. Besides, who needs to be psychic? Are you a noob? You've never read a chat or forum post exulting in causing someone to feel bad?
The feelings of other players are irrelevant and are none of my concern.
You've already acknowledged the bad feelings of those griefed, why won't you acknowledge the good feelings of doing the griefing?
It doesn't matter anyway, its clear you're not arguing that griefing doesn't exist, since you've already admitted it, you merely arguing you don't care if there is griefing.
Congratulations to everyone who responded to the OP, as you just fed the troll ten pages of attention about nonsense... please just learn to control the urge to feed the trolls their favorite dish... pointless argument.
------------------------- "Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
From Lum The Mad's Blog, a definition of what doesn't exit.
"Ultima Online players did not have that luxury. And for some, those on the other side who developed a taste for causing misery, there actually developed a justification for it. You see it glancingly referred to in the article linked above – the "evil player". In UO, the "evil player" was not a PvPer (because PvPers crave challenge, something which the grief player assiduously avoids), but someone who indulged in specifically targeted grief. One sterling example would open a "gate" in an area full of new players, lure them through with a promise of gold or other wealth, and then, when they went through the gate to a small island, killed them and closed the gate, stranding their ghost until customer support fished them out. Heh heh heh. Stupid newbie. Should have known better. Heh heh heh. The "evil player", when called on this behavior, then claims to be an integral part of the game world. Evil needs to be fought against. It makes the game interesting to have someone to hate, right? I mean, they’re so altruistic! It’s a public service, being an asshole. Hard work and all that. Lost your house? Stupid newbie, everyone knows to carry 30 boxes and 20 furs to hide your key under so it takes a thief at least 10 seconds using a 3rd party macro program to steal it. Killed while hunting? Stupid newbie, suck it up and deal. Learn to fight and maybe someday you can be one of us. Of course, no one wants to be a "stupid newbie", and very few people will actually pay for the privilege. Yet, in Ultima Online, people did. Because quite literally, that’s all there was. Ultima Online was the only large-scale MMO on the market. If you wanted to play an MMO, you dealt with the PKs and the bank thiefs and the miner killers and all the other great examples of humanity UO brought out in people. The fact that people actually played in spite of all that actually speaks a great deal to the potential of MMOs."
Damn but that brought back memories! Many good, some very, very bad. The author hit the points very well indeed. UO was the first, and it was also the last in many senses of the word. We shall never see its like again. Thats a pity in one sense, but a relief in another. Put both down to human nature in all its virtue and vice.
Congratulations to everyone who responded to the OP, as you just fed the troll ten pages of attention about nonsense... please just learn to control the urge to feed the trolls their favorite dish... pointless argument.
Great point Dark... I'm as guilty of that as anyone. One would think that after all these years, that I'd not rise to the bait... But some statements are so moronic, that they simply scream out for some response. Or perhaps not. In many cases the best response is silence. Some decade I'll get better at applying that.
You can't grief a AI because it has no feelings, but if you are deliberately setting out to ruin someone's gaming experience, then you are causing them grief... aka: Griefing. There are a lot of cyber bullies out there who don't care in the least if they take the fun out of games. Hey it's fun for them, so screw everyone else. Mostly they are abused kids who need an outlet for their frustrations. Of course most MMOs now have ways to get away from griefers so it's no big deal.
When I do PvP, I do it with little to no feeling or emotion. Am I an AI?
Nor am I concerned with the feelings of others. WHy should I be? I can't control how others feel. Why worry about something you can't control?
Comments
Whether or not players on the opposite faction have fun or not is of no concern.
Whether or not someone else feels bad is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
Whether someone else decides to quit or not is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
You use the argument that since it doesn't concern you, it doesn't count. Hate to break it to you, but just because things don't concern you, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Bottom line, regardless of what you pretend to believe, other people ARE concerned how other players feel and what they do. And their concern is that they are pleased if those players are frustated by their actions. Thus griefing.
I never said players feeling bad doesn't exist.
I just said it's none of my concern.
Do you also admit the existance of other players feeling good for killing low level players who can't possibly harm them and receive no in-game reward and the good feeling comes from making the other player feel bad?
I am not psychic and don't presume to know the feelings or motives of other players.
Either way, their motives are none of my concern.
Believe it or not, but I can.
It's my game, my money, my character, my time..all of it. It's mine. There's nothing anywhere that says I can't come and go as I please.
So yes, I can determine the rules. If you don't like my rules, don't play with me.
Incorrect, if you don't like the game rules, which you don't determine, don't play the game.
Killing a player who is trying to leave a battlefield isn't griefing, its a route :P
Does this mean the North Vietnamese were griefing the US Army during Vietnam? :P
Ah, I've had the pleasure of serving in real life combat. Fortunately in real life there are no log outs, drops and time outs. There's just combat.
Also unfortunately, there is a such thing as retreat to which the rules of engagement state you do not continue to force combat.
P.S. The Army is kind of like the ghetto of the U.S military.
I am not psychic and don't presume to know the feelings or motives of other players.
Either way, their motives are none of my concern.
So maybe you should change the premise of your argument.
"Griefing and Ganking exist within the lexicon of game verbiage (game verbiage? is that the best I could come up with?) . These terms are acknowledge by some to be the cornerstones of what is considered by some to be what is bad in gaming."
"However, I personally think that the players who play a pvp game misunderstand that this is built into the game and that they are getting upset about developer acknowledged game mechanics. therefore it is not my concern if they do not understand the rules of the game that they play as I am only concerened with winning within the confines of those rules".
At least that make more sense to me.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
This is probably the dumbest thread i have ever read in any forum anywhere ever.
Please continue.
Whether or not players on the opposite faction have fun or not is of no concern.
Whether or not someone else feels bad is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
Whether someone else decides to quit or not is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
You use the argument that since it doesn't concern you, it doesn't count. Hate to break it to you, but just because things don't concern you, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Bottom line, regardless of what you pretend to believe, other people ARE concerned how other players feel and what they do. And their concern is that they are pleased if those players are frustated by their actions. Thus griefing.
I never said players feeling bad doesn't exist.
I just said it's none of my concern.
Do you also admit the existance of other players feeling good for killing low level players who can't possibly harm them and receive no in-game reward and the good feeling comes from making the other player feel bad?
I am not psychic and don't presume to know the feelings or motives of other players.
Either way, their motives are none of my concern.
You don't need to know the feelings of any specific player, and not being psychic didn't stop you from acknowledging the existence of those who feel bad. Besides, who needs to be psychic? Are you a noob? You've never read a chat or forum post exulting in causing someone to feel bad?
Incorrect, if you don't like the game rules, which you don't determine, don't play the game.
I think you misunderstood where I was going with that.
I was implying that, if you bothered me and I was no longer having fun, I could simply turn the game off. To which, nothing ingame or out of game prevents me from doing so.
Since it is My game, money ect ect I am the one who determines if I play or not, no one else. Those are the mechanics I was refering to.
reported for trolling, now get back in your cave and leave our nice boards alone!
Killing a player who is trying to leave a battlefield isn't griefing, its a route :P
Does this mean the North Vietnamese were griefing the US Army during Vietnam? :P
Ah, I've had the pleasure of serving in real life combat. Fortunately in real life there are no log outs, drops and time outs. There's just combat.
Also unfortunately, there is a such thing as retreat to which the rules of engagement state you do not continue to force combat.
P.S. The Army is kind of like the ghetto of the U.S military.
I served in the military as well and by far the Army is the largest portion of the U.S.'s military forces. And since ghettos are strictly for minorities that group together.....that would make the Coast Guard the "ghetto of the U.S. military" and the Marines close behind.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Killing a player who is trying to leave a battlefield isn't griefing, its a route :P
Does this mean the North Vietnamese were griefing the US Army during Vietnam? :P
Ah, I've had the pleasure of serving in real life combat. Fortunately in real life there are no log outs, drops and time outs. There's just combat.
Also unfortunately, there is a such thing as retreat to which the rules of engagement state you do not continue to force combat.
P.S. The Army is kind of like the ghetto of the U.S military.
I served in the military as well and by far the Army is the largest portion of the U.S.'s military forces. And since ghettos are strictly for minorities that group together.....that would make the Coast Guard the "ghetto of the U.S. military" and the Marines close behind.
No love for the Air Force? I'd say we're the ghetto ones. Low budget, old gear, dated training.
Griefing and ganking should be allowed in MMORPG, they are a basic part of role playing. But they should also be limited with mechanics inside the game.
For example someone who did some griefing or ganking would get the status of a murderer for some limited playing time. The duration depends on how heavy the griefing or ganking was (10, 20, 50 or more hours of playing time - playing time means the time when the player is logged in the game and playing). During that time everybody could grief or gank him without getting the status of a murderer themselves. NPC guards would kill a murderer on sight, so the murderer would have no access to towns and other guarded places. There would be a very large bounty for killing a murderer. The bounty should be so large that other players would be very interested in hunting the murderer down. The bounty would last for the whole time that a player has a status of a murderer, so if other players would kill the murderer 10 times, they would get 10 times the bounty. The size of the bounty depends on how heavy the griefing or ganking was.
I think that this solution would bring new interesting dynamics in a MMORPG. We would probably get guilds of bounty hunters with the main purpose of hunting down the murderers and getting the bounties. The griefers and gankers would also probably establish some guilds for protecting themselves against bounty hunters. It would be very interesting.
Bounties are a joke. Make it large enough, and the ganker has a fellow ganker kill them and split the bounty. NPC bounty hunters are too limited in terms of AI to be effective. Gankers learn to work around them or ambush them. Every anti ganker/griefer system that I've seen in countless games, that doesn't involve a hard coded flag, just leads to an endless arms race with the gankers/griefers. Its a total waste of the Dev's time and efforts. No matter how creative one is, the gankers/griefers will find a loop hole. Look at the evolution of Concord in Eve as just one example of such an arms race.
Whether or not players on the opposite faction have fun or not is of no concern.
Whether or not someone else feels bad is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
Whether someone else decides to quit or not is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
You use the argument that since it doesn't concern you, it doesn't count. Hate to break it to you, but just because things don't concern you, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Bottom line, regardless of what you pretend to believe, other people ARE concerned how other players feel and what they do. And their concern is that they are pleased if those players are frustated by their actions. Thus griefing.
I never said players feeling bad doesn't exist.
I just said it's none of my concern.
Do you also admit the existance of other players feeling good for killing low level players who can't possibly harm them and receive no in-game reward and the good feeling comes from making the other player feel bad?
I am not psychic and don't presume to know the feelings or motives of other players.
Either way, their motives are none of my concern.
You don't need to know the feelings of any specific player, and not being psychic didn't stop you from acknowledging the existence of those who feel bad. Besides, who needs to be psychic? Are you a noob? You've never read a chat or forum post exulting in causing someone to feel bad?
The feelings of other players are irrelevant and are none of my concern.
From Lum The Mad's Blog, a definition of what doesn't exit.
"Ultima Online players did not have that luxury. And for some, those on the other side who developed a taste for causing misery, there actually developed a justification for it. You see it glancingly referred to in the article linked above – the "evil player".
In UO, the "evil player" was not a PvPer (because PvPers crave challenge, something which the grief player assiduously avoids), but someone who indulged in specifically targeted grief. One sterling example would open a "gate" in an area full of new players, lure them through with a promise of gold or other wealth, and then, when they went through the gate to a small island, killed them and closed the gate, stranding their ghost until customer support fished them out. Heh heh heh. Stupid newbie. Should have known better. Heh heh heh.
The "evil player", when called on this behavior, then claims to be an integral part of the game world. Evil needs to be fought against. It makes the game interesting to have someone to hate, right? I mean, they’re so altruistic! It’s a public service, being an asshole. Hard work and all that. Lost your house? Stupid newbie, everyone knows to carry 30 boxes and 20 furs to hide your key under so it takes a thief at least 10 seconds using a 3rd party macro program to steal it. Killed while hunting? Stupid newbie, suck it up and deal. Learn to fight and maybe someday you can be one of us.
Of course, no one wants to be a "stupid newbie", and very few people will actually pay for the privilege. Yet, in Ultima Online, people did. Because quite literally, that’s all there was. Ultima Online was the only large-scale MMO on the market. If you wanted to play an MMO, you dealt with the PKs and the bank thiefs and the miner killers and all the other great examples of humanity UO brought out in people. The fact that people actually played in spite of all that actually speaks a great deal to the potential of MMOs."
brokentoys.org/2004/12/18/the-unbearable-darkness-of-ultima-online/
Yet most ultima players look back fondly on their UO experience, because in fact it was challenging. Bank thieves were douchbags I'll agree to that, but evil is evil. UO is the only game where I've ever been walking down a road exploring(while i was new) and had somone give the choice my money or my life. Exciting! Banditry! I loved it.
True and correct (to a point). What you fail to understand though is that griefing (the deliberate use of allowed game mechanics to harass or otherwise interfere with anothers enjoyment of the game) is both defined and prohibited by most (if not all) mmo EULA's or TOS's and as such you can be reported and banned by the GM's. You can argue semantics all you like, but if you grief (as defined by NCsoft, not by you) than you will be banned (and rightly so) even if you don't actually cheat in any way. So in that sense it is of concern to you not to violate the terms of service, and in order to do that you had better make sure you know what NCsoft considers griefing before you hop into the game.
People, it is clear that the OP is a tr00 hxc character; abolishing the human emotions and whatnot in order to win, or whatever he may call it. Such a person has discovered that giving up the nature of humans will bring him the "invincible" character. Then I ask, what the hell are you doing playing games then? Go teach your ways to people to "further enhance" their ways of life, as seems apparent from your troll posts.
True and correct (to a point). What you fail to understand though is that griefing (the deliberate use of allowed game mechanics to harass or otherwise interfere with anothers enjoyment of the game) is both defined and prohibited by most (if not all) mmo EULA's or TOS's and as such you can be reported and banned by the GM's. You can argue semantics all you like, but if you grief (as defined by NCsoft, not by you) than you will be banned (and rightly so) even if you don't actually cheat in an way. So in that sense it is of concern to you not to violate the terms of service, and in order to do that you had better make sure you know what NCsoft considers griefing before you hop into the game.
And this is basically is the final word. You are playing their game by their rules (which are there for a reason).
Whether or not players on the opposite faction have fun or not is of no concern.
Whether or not someone else feels bad is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
Whether someone else decides to quit or not is beyond my control and is none of my concern.
You use the argument that since it doesn't concern you, it doesn't count. Hate to break it to you, but just because things don't concern you, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Bottom line, regardless of what you pretend to believe, other people ARE concerned how other players feel and what they do. And their concern is that they are pleased if those players are frustated by their actions. Thus griefing.
I never said players feeling bad doesn't exist.
I just said it's none of my concern.
Do you also admit the existance of other players feeling good for killing low level players who can't possibly harm them and receive no in-game reward and the good feeling comes from making the other player feel bad?
I am not psychic and don't presume to know the feelings or motives of other players.
Either way, their motives are none of my concern.
You don't need to know the feelings of any specific player, and not being psychic didn't stop you from acknowledging the existence of those who feel bad. Besides, who needs to be psychic? Are you a noob? You've never read a chat or forum post exulting in causing someone to feel bad?
The feelings of other players are irrelevant and are none of my concern.
You've already acknowledged the bad feelings of those griefed, why won't you acknowledge the good feelings of doing the griefing?
It doesn't matter anyway, its clear you're not arguing that griefing doesn't exist, since you've already admitted it, you merely arguing you don't care if there is griefing.
Congratulations to everyone who responded to the OP, as you just fed the troll ten pages of attention about nonsense... please just learn to control the urge to feed the trolls their favorite dish... pointless argument.
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"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
Damn but that brought back memories! Many good, some very, very bad. The author hit the points very well indeed. UO was the first, and it was also the last in many senses of the word. We shall never see its like again. Thats a pity in one sense, but a relief in another. Put both down to human nature in all its virtue and vice.
Great point Dark... I'm as guilty of that as anyone. One would think that after all these years, that I'd not rise to the bait... But some statements are so moronic, that they simply scream out for some response. Or perhaps not. In many cases the best response is silence. Some decade I'll get better at applying that.
First thing that has nothing to do only with Aion second thing as cromica said ... you sir are an idiot.
When I do PvP, I do it with little to no feeling or emotion. Am I an AI?
Nor am I concerned with the feelings of others. WHy should I be? I can't control how others feel. Why worry about something you can't control?
No, you're a psychopat